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TiVo Selling Data on Users' Watching Habits
Gyppo writes "The San Francisco Chronicle reports that TiVo is collecting and selling data on what parts of broadcasts people are rewinding for review and what commercials they are skipping. The data collection is part of a service the company provides to advertisers and television networks, collecting anonymous data on their users' commercial-watching habits. The data they provide is a random subset of their overall userbase, detailing which commercials are skipped and which are actually watched. The article mentions the possibility for privacy abuse, but with this application of technology Tivo is not providing access to what any one individual user watches via the service."
in soviet russia, TiVo watches you!!
Why UNIX?
I'd love to know who they're selling it to, though. Choicepoint comes to mind... and that's a very scary thing, letting prospective employers know what I watch.
Striking fear in the authors of godawful fanfiction, I am here, appearing in darkness, Tuxedo Jack!
I always assumed they did this, am I the only one?
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction." - Blaise Pascal
Why UNIX?
Didn't we know this back when the whole Janet Jackson/Super Bowl thing happened? Maybe this is running today in honor of the anniversary of that.
Thank goodness for my MythTV box.
I'm inclined to think that maybe this is a good thing. If no individual privacy is being trampled, then it's good for TiVo to have another revenue stream and a way to keep networks and advertisers happy, since generally the content providers have been working pretty hard to fight against DVR.
Thinkin' Lincoln - a web comic of presidential proportions
In the article, refers to what services its "clients" want--but Tivo isn't talking about all the people who forked over cash for Tivos and pay an over inflated monthly subscription. No, the people Tivo considers its clients are the media companies it sells viewership data to.
It would be nice if Tivo would think of its loyal customers as clients rather than a captive audience to sell data about and to force feed advertisements to. I think it is a legitimate point to think that Tivo might wish to consider putting its retail customers first, since without them they are nothing. The attempts to monitize their customers as if they are an asset owned by Tivo seems like a good way to alienate retail customers and to potentially hurt Tivo sales.
I don't know if this is the same with standalone TiVos, but my DirecTV TiVo box is always on, and always 'recording' two channels. Which means there's pretty much 24 hours a day of stuff I'm watching without skipping anything, plus stuff I am watching and skipping.
Now, they could be ignoring Live TV, but... then they're ignoring when people watch live TV, which I think would be fairly important to advertisers.
Personally I don't care if TiVo (or DirecTV) collect viewing habits, as long as they remain anonymous. I just don't think it's accurate at all.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
This isn't news. Sure feel free to get up in arms about marketing companies knowing what an anonymous hashed identity is watching.
Please note, that the supermarkets do exactly the same thing. Why do you think loyalty cards exist?
Deleted
I think an end result (and to some an unexpected result) is TiVo can make life better for everyone with this "service". I've always been a huge fan of TiVo, since they arrived on the scene, so forgive some obvious bias.
How can they make it better? Tivo can supply information to providers of content, and advertisers more valuable than any surveys or polls. Tivo can give real time info (rolled up) of what and how viewers watch their show (and ads). An end result would (potentially) be eventual extinction of really annoying and bad ads... by dint of the fact noone watches them when given an opportunity to skip.
The same goes for content... if noone records a show, or watches it on Tivo buffer, its well earned demise can be accelerated.
Tivo demonstrated just how granular their data are by their disclosure that the Janet Jackson "clip" was the most replayed segment of the Super Bowl... wth? they actually know down to a few seconds of snippets.
Yeah, there may be privacy issues there... but there are privacy issues everywhere, even when there were (are there still?) Nielsen families. My gut tells me there isn't too much interesting in viewers habits other than what they're watching and how much of they're watching. The game is about making money and selling product.
Tivo finally gives the providers feedback that I'd wished for years ago... immediate, and absolute.
TiVo has long since confirmed this was a practice since delivering that Janet Jackson's infamous Super Bowl "wardrobe malfunction" was the most replayed event in TiVo history.
~ milesy20
This attack may come from someone who cracks the system and uses it to spy on others, or the attack may come from law-suits which (for whatever reason I can't currently imagine) demand that TiVo turn over records of what a particular person was watching. Or maybe this attack will never come.
I would argue that avoiding these kinds of systems is not paranoid... moreover I would argue that avoiding them is necessary. Do not let yet another system be co-opted to monitor you! Even if it is 'for a good cause' (and I'm not convinced that advertising is 'a good cause') it can eventually be used against you.
In short, I'm just going to add this to the list of reasons I prefer MythTV. My device, my control, my privacy.
so even if someone doesnt have TiVO and they dont flip the channel on commercials how do they still know that people are REALLY watching? for all they know people could be out of the room, talking on the phone, taking a dump or reading the paper or book while putting the commercials on mute.
about people that have TiVO, why is TiVO allowing the advertisers to know when people do this anyway? how much money does it take to buy TiVO and its initial rules of total privacy by the viewer?
This has been part of Tivo's business plan since the beginning.
Elgato's eyetv uses titan TV to schedule recordings. So when I click on the record button, not only do they send the "record this" information back to my mac mini, they also have a clicks worth of information to sell. Much more reliable than a Neilson rating, but not as inclusive since it misses what we watch live.
I hadn't thought of it before, but it makes sense.
A court just blew the cableTV proprietary platform bundle wide open: TV decoders are now open to outside vendors/deployers, starting July 1, 2007. That means that complete "cable cards" will become much cheaper, and that really cheap HW will send the raw data to PCs to be decoded in SW, which can be F/OSS.
The cable TV network just became a lot more like an internet, and the Internet just became a lot more like a TV network. For those working on it ourselves, anyway.
So when does MythTV make TiVo look like the Web made AOL look?
--
make install -not war
"The article mentions the possibility for privacy abuse, but with this application of technology Tivo is not providing access to what any one individual user watches via the service."
This distinction is wrong. Anonymity and privacy are two completely separate concepts. A person's privacy can easily be abused even if his data is kept anonymous. Most people understand information being kept "private" to mean used only for the limited purposes for which they disclosed it, and not re-disclosed in any manner, anoymous or otherwise, unless they agree.
The reason for this is obvious - even anonymous data can be used against you in a manner which is adverse to your own interests. Do you really think Tivo is using this data to help people or further those people's interests? No, Tivo is trying to use this "anonymous" data in a way which is at odds with their users' interests - trying to figure out how to defeat any given individual's commercial-skipping, for example.
Please don't confuse anonymity and privacy. De-identified data can still be used in many ways which are adverse to your interests.
If this is the case, why the hell am I being charged for the service and then they are selling my watching habits? I smell MythTV, anyone else smell that? I really despise companies double dipping, WOW for instance, pay for the game AND pay to play it, WTF? You get one or the other, not both! TiVo will probably be getting fired from my household here pretty soon. The only way to get these companies to notice is to hit them in the only place they notice, the pocketbooks. How about they first ASK nicely to sell my watching habits, and then give me a fracking discount on my bill for helping them out?
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Can we do this with MythTV, on a voluntary basis, but WE get the cash?
Tivo must make three groups happy: Stockholders, Customers and Broadcasters. It seems like collecting and selling statistical information can't help but to improve the mood for the least-happy group -- the broadcasters. Having a way to easily survey 20,000 random households to determine which super bowl ads were the most liked (e.g. played more than once per Tivo), determining if people are skipping or watching opening credits to shows, and determining how many people "bail out" in the middle of a new show are all feedback that may help the broadcasters learn that Tivo is not all evil. As a customer, my biggest privacy concerns are addressed by their Privacy Policy, which clearly states that nothing personally identifiable is collected and that they have an opt-out option for even the anonymous stuff. To make me a really happy customer, I wish that they would return the life-time subscription (even if only available to broadband customers) and that they would figure out how to turn a profit, so that I can be sure that my current Tivo does not someday turn into a boat anchor.
"Wow, most of our viewers fast-forwarded past all 8,064 erectile dysfunction commercials this month but watched quite a few of the video game related ones."
And make some advertising decisions based on that data.
Christ. Enough already.
Typo: 'In Soviet America...' There, fixed for you.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
From July 2006: TiVo to Measure Ad-Skipping
BEAR DOWN!
That's all I gotta say.
GOOOOOOO BEARS!
That stands for Hardware Rights Management. TiVos (series 2 and above) are paperweights without this endless subscription "service." As much crap as everyone here gives Microsoft, at least Linux is an option to make PC hardware bundled with Windows operable. TiVos are so locked down via hardware that they are virtually uncrackable and useless without the TiVo extortion payments. Go on the TiVo forums, and all the sheep there call you a thief for merely wanting to use your TiVo without the "service," even as a push-to-record DVR. TiVo has all the sheep fooled into thinking their eternal fees are justified for the privilege of using hardware that the end user bought and owns! Imagine if Microsoft - or GM - tried locking up your hardware (including locking out linux) if you didn't pay an eternal license fee!
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
"...selling data on what parts of broadcasts people are rewinding for review..."
This can only result in more nudity on TV. Woohoo!
OK, it'll be naked people holding pepsi bottles, but what the hell. Maybe they could do something with them, hint hint.
I quit!
"Please note, that the supermarkets do exactly the same thing. Why do you think loyalty cards exist?" They can try, but I can get an anonymous loyalty card. Just be careful what name you put on it because the checkers always try and thank you by name. You really don't want to choose a bad name and hear, "Thank you Mr. Dumbsh*t" every time you use your discount card... Try getting an anonymous account with your Tivo subscription. It would be a lot harder. Besides Tivo is even worse in one sense, it monitors you in real time, all the time. However, monitoring by anyone is bad in my book. the fact that your supermarket is spying on you is hardly an argument that the practice should be expanded or is desirable for consumers.
Isn't this exactly the same as what Google has been doing for years? Of course marketers like to know what's popular and what's not. What's wrong with that?
Oh come on. Everyone with a TiVo (and even those without) should know that TiVo collects this type of anonymous, aggregate data. Haven't they done that since the beginning? Did you really think they wouldn't provide that data to third parties?
And frankly, I think it's a good thing. You guys bitch and moan when your favorite TV shows get cancelled because the Nielsen families' interests aren't representative of your own. You guys bitch and moan about advertisers not making more interesting commercials. Well, here you have TiVo, making geek-friendly devices collecting television data about shows and commercials that tech enthusiasts actually watch, and now you guys bitch and moan about that too.
...it wants its "news" story back.
-R
I think they should record even more data than that. As long as they dont sell individual identities.
Don't forget how vital this kind of feed back is for producing quality advertisements. If it were not for digital restrictions that force you to watch and evaluate ads, people on Madison Avenue would be so far out of touch that you might describe them as having their heads shove up their ass. The ads would surely suck much worse. See? Aren't you glad that you are not really in control of your recorder, that you are forced to watch advertisements? What a great deal for the $250/month you pay your cable company. A DVR that's not a DVR but more like a pay per play juke box from hell. I mean, when you can just watch what you pay for instead of whatever is being broadcast, 90% of your advertisement watching goes out the window. A free DVR that could skip advertisements all together would eliminate the last 10% and and and that would be terrible. Think of the quality messages you will be missing. Isn't that why you pay for cable TV? I know it's why I don't.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
So if I fast-forward through commercials but pause /slo-mo on hot chicks - and they modify the sales pitch to give me more of what I want - how is this a bad thing?
"but with this application of technology Tivo is not providing access to what any one individual user watches via the service."
*Still* negative function...
If the data "belongs" to anyone, it belongs to the viewers.
This is old news. It is also very easy to opt-out. Just call Tivo customer service (1-877-367-8486) and let them know.
I know that the collective memory of the Slashdot moderators is less than a day, but this story came out during the 2004 Superbowl:8 31222
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/03/1
The next Cmdr Taco duplicate will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
Explicitly (as in, not in the small print on a piece of paper hidden in some packing material) agree to have their data shared, and further, they're paid for it.
Maybe they will realize people rewind and watch scenes with sexual content in them. That means we'll finally have more sexual content and less violence. Yay!
A unique way to learn a language: http://languageloom.com
I am sure data mining was a thought out revenue stream that TiVo had planned since it's inception.(One reason I never bought one.) Once a critical mass hits it's Tivo's usage, TiVo can sell on going, up to date statistics- Ratings better than Nielson. TiVo didn't build these only to make our lives easy. Follow the money.
I support tivo doing this. as long as it's not personally identifiable information.
maybe fox wouldn't have cancelled firefly had they known how many people actually watched it.
I also like that they provide info on commercials.
this is the first time, I believe, outside of focus groups that companies have feedback on their commercials.
I personally skip every commercial I can.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Anything that could actually improve the quality of ads is a plus in my book.
Also, I don't have a tivo, so that helps.
Look out honey cause I'm usin' technology
Ain't got time to make no apologies
i see no good reason for paying monthly fees for a company to give your information away. Using a crap computer and somthing like BeyondTV you get to watch everything from normal cable to free HDTV... that's more what I am for. Enjoyed it every since i got it.
insight through the mind
As someone who has owned a Tivo since about 6 months after they first came out. I was told from day one that they would collect data anonymously on me IF I did not opt-out. Now, I thought very seriously about this issue at the time. I normally opt-out of this kind of stuff but Tivo is one of the LEADING examples of hacker friendly companies selling consumer electronics products. I decided that I wanted to support their business plan since thanks to their hacker friendly policies I was able to upgrade my tiny 14 hr Tivo to an 80+ hour Tivo by myself. At any time before, now, or in the future Tivo could download code to detect and disable my hacked Tivo but they don't because they think differently than 99% of the other companies out there! I think they deserve some F***ING RESPECT & SUPPORT for being a company that is hacker friendly.
Remember this is not Sony root-kitting your PC, this is Tivo letting you hack the system they sold you. Not only that, I can only think of ONE other company (Garmin for my GPS) that continues to give me both bug fixes and actual enhancements to a product which is so old. I happen to have a lifetime subscription to Tivo, back from day one, when it only cost $150 and the only money they have made off of me since is from this anonymous data that I voluntarily allow them to collect! Tivo astonishingly, given the quality of their product and hacker tolerant policies, still isn't a highly profitable company. Maybe, the other 99% of the companies have it right economically - screw the hackers - but I think we should give credit to those who dare to challenge the established ways of treating customers. Suing your customers and root-kitting their computers is what we should be opposing not collecting anonymous data with full disclosure and an opt-out option.
If you chose to go with MythTV or Freevo instead of TiVo, your hardware cost will probably be much higher than an off-the-shelf TiVo unit. So yes, TiVo customers have "forked over cash" but they probably forked over less cash than they would have for an alternative system.
As for the subscription price being "over inflated": $13 per month is just under $.45 per day. Is 2 quarters a day really an over-inflated price for a service that automates recording my favorite shows and allows me to fast-forward commercials that I don't want to watch? (Usage data will reveal that I tend to watch the Geico "cavemen" commercials.) Yes, that's infinite magnitudes more expensive than a free service like XMLTV but realistically it's not a horribly expensive amount to pay. If you can't spare $.45/day then you probably can't afford a PVR to begin with.
Yes, I'm a TiVo user and I'm quite content with the service and the price. At the end of the day I don't care if they look at my usage habits because I hope that the companies will finally realize which ads suck-ass. If the big-brother syndrome gets to the point where someday a company won't hire me because The Great Database says I watched too much Aqua Teen and not enough CSPAN... I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
This gets reported every few months. The moonbats start worrying about the MIB breaking down their door while clearer minds welcome their vieiwing habits mattering for a change, rather than the army of mental patients who have Nielson boxes in their homes, or whatever they use nowadays.
:)
One thing I'd like is the ability to vote thumbs up or thumbs down for commercials. It would be a moderation system for ads. Think of it! Bad, annoying ads would be modded into oblivion. That fartsucking Dell dude would never have been famous. It would be utopia!
Tivo has never hidden their desire to collect and resell data. They tell advertisers what commercials people watch, which SuperBowl clip gets replayed over and over again, and have started to provide data feed to the Neilsen ratings people. Think about about this, what you watch on Tivo can feed into ratings decision machine. I'm also a lifetime subscriber and take advantage of the ability to download and move recordings around. I know I could do this myself, but being able to put a remote in the hands of a 10 year old, or my wife and just have it work tm makes it all worthwhile. Tivo is in business to return something to their shareholders, as long as they make a reasonable product I hope they stick around. This isn't news to anyone who's looked a a setup screen or user guide. It's not like they're changing a privacy policy to squeeze a few more dimes out of each user.
We were selected as a Nielsen family Pre-Tivo. They sent a letter in the mail and a log-book, and they even sent a crisp brand new dollar for your participation. It felt like power because the TV shows that I was watching were going to remain on TV and the advertisers for those TV shows were going to profit. Anyways, it's not particularly strange that this TV watching data is being researched and you could hardly argue that the effects are more than benign. The difference here clearly is that now the users aren't going to be able to volunteer that data, and Tivo is going to be the one to profit by intercepting the Nielsen ratings and saying "wait I have the data right here, you don't need to pay Nielsen."
and what commercials they are skipping.
Out of this information they also determined the time that people sleep in front of the television:
- 100% commercial skipping: awake
- 0% commercial skipping: asleep
Other values were not registered.
bash$
I'd rather have advertisers learn what makes advertising entertaining to watch than have them try to strong-arm TiVo into forcing me to watch ads.
What's the big surprise? Giving media planners and buyers a larger sampling pool is just expected for VOD and TiVO-type tools, isn't it? Just think what we'll be able to do once you get a cell phone w/ GSM so I can offer you ads for fast food at a franchise _near you_ around lunch based on your demographic data. I'm just waiting for better personalized, interactive advertising creative on your VOD/TiVO based on that information. Mmmmm... commercial goodness.
"Hey, Dave. You like games. Did you know Burning Crusade is out? Want to buy it right now? Click here to authorize a purchase."
"Which part of not-tied-to-personal-accounts are you not getting?"
The part where they say they aren't doing it now but don't make a binding irrevocable promise not to in the future. The only way to completely insure that private data doesn't get misused (say, for example, desegregated) is not to collect the data in the first place.
Just because the current management says they won't collect individual viewing habits doesn't mean that tomorrow's management will have the same position, nor any company that may purchase Tivo in the future. In fact, I'm not even sure if there is a way they can promise not to use the data that is fully binding on a company that purchases Tivo. So, the easiest, safest solution from a consumer perspective? Respect the fact that Tivo **owners** and **subscribers** are your customers, not media comanies. Once you do that, there is absolutely no reason to collect any data and sell it to outside companies.
Please move along..
It's shit like this that pushes people to piracy.
Anyone who thought TiVo is *not* providing data to advertisers is an idiot.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Media companies and Tivo owners do not have the same interests. If Tivo starts catering to media interests it is not likely to be a "win, win" situation: Tivo owners want to skip ads. Media companies want you to watch them. These two interests are opposite.
"for the subscription price being "over inflated": $13 per month is just under $.45 per day."
Um, I can get a month of full internet access for that. Or a month of basic cable. Does the database Tivo supplies cost anything near $13 per subscriber/mo? How about a few pennies per subscriber. Seeing as how I can look up shows for free on ad supported sites, its pretty clear that the schedule doesn't cost that much to make when divided per suscriber. Just a guess, but I'd say the mark up for the subscription service is around 10,000%--and that's still not enough of your money for them. Nope, the not only want your cash, they want you. By selling your viewing habits, they are collectively pimping out their customers to the media companies Tivo now calls its "clients."
So, you love your Tivo. But will you love it as much when Tivo ads more menu and fast forwarding ads? When they start enforcing the DRM that is now built into your Tivo? What Tivo's new "clients" want and what you want are different and those differences will become more apparent as Tivo gets closer and closer ties with the media companies. You may eventually regret not opposing the gradual erosion of Tivo's retail customer focus as your Tivo becomes less and less made for you and more and more made to the media companies whims and desires.
Guess what? Myth boxes don't do this.
Weird!
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
From a purely fiscal standpoint, it makes sense for you to spend that 45 cents every day. Let's assume a worst-case scenario, in which you make the old federal minimum wage, $5.15 an hour. To make up for 45 cents of your time, you'd have to skip 5.24 minutes of commercials. As a rule of thumb, about a quarter of what we watch is commercial. Therefore, if you watch more than 21 minutes of television a day, it would make sense to pay the Tivo fee.
Both the subscribers and the buyers of this data are paying Tivo customers. Tivo is treating both groups of customers just fine.
That they only mention one kind of customers when talking about that part of the business is not part of an evil plot. It's just how normal conversations work.
This is assuming the usage habits are stored with that information, and then stripped for reporting, instead of anonomized and then stored.
I don't know if it is either way, just noting that it would be possible to stop being a customer and not have your information compromised with new managed if they've made a habit of storing it only after stripping user information, and some of the intrepid slashdotters may be able to figure that out from their privacy policy or some such.
Mozy, free online backup service
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I'm sure the privacy nuts will be out in force over this, but honestly.... isn't this a good thing?
Everyone complains about how the Neilson system is outdated and doesn't accurately reflect what even that TINY segment of the viewing public watches on their televisions. If Tivo is accurately recording what we tape, what we watch, and what we're actually paying attention to instead of what we have on while we're ranting on slashdot... that seems like a pretty good indication of what kinds of things people actually WANT to see on their TV's.
So, if they infer from my "anonymous" data that I never watch commercials, I pay attention to BSG, Heroes, and pr0n.... maybe we'll get better programming along with our advertisements.
I hope you don't live in Boston... if Tivo starts selling your viewing habits, they won't let you cross the bridge!
It is $20 per month, or $240 per year, under contract with a monthly payment plan. Plus a $50-250 "box fee". Oops! Don't pick the HD one. That'll run you $800 for the box alone.
None of which are as good as a $600 custom-built HTPC. You make that back within a year or two compared to TiVo. You can actually burn DVDs and record HDTV without paying ridiculous prices for the hardware. You can pay normal prices on big hard drives, instead of being marketed to as "80 hours! Woohoo!" And you can upgrade it when the time comes, without paying for it again.
You also skip this whole mess with privacy.
If I could mod a thread I'm currently posted in I'd give you some funny points for that.
and everyone here goes apeshit when Microsoft cracks down on Linux XBox hackers.
/.
So I don't really own my Tivo box? That's interesting. So they can knock on my door and come in and take it? How many years do I have to pay for the service for my rights to vest? 1? 10? 100? Oh BTW, I still have the original box the Tivo came in, and there is not a damn thing on it that says that it won't work AT ALL without the service.
The reality is I don't give a shit what Tivo's business model is, since I am the end user and not a Tivo stockholder. I am concerned with my rights. A business model is not a protectible interest via copyright, as the Lexmark case makes clear.
Jesus, I cannot believe I am having this debate on
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
take notice when I press mute during those horribly annoying "Bob has an erection, Bob's happy smiling wife loves having her ass filled with it, look at Bob SMILE. -- INJECT YOURSELF WITH VIAGRA" commercials ? Fuck viagra, and fuck you people that buy the shit.. if your dick ain't working anymore maybe it's time to quit with the sex, just maybe your body is trying to tell you something, God Damn Fucking Sons of Bitches.
This would probably be the wrong time to see magnetized TiVo lite-brites on bridges...
But I'm reasonably certain you don't actually sign a contract.
Gonna pirate me a Lucy Liu.
1/3 of the content of an average commercial television show is commercials. If I start watching a one hour program that runs from 10:00PM to 11:00PM on TiVo and I don't want to see any commercials I have to wait until 10:20 before I start watching. That way as I forward through the last block of commercials at about 10:55 I catch up and am watching the last part of the program in real time.
-- Ecks
I'd prefer they stay in business. If selling unidentifiable data to advertisers lets them create better ads by nuking the useless ones, then more power to them.
i can't see how this is anything but good. it gives me the power to influence how and what commercials get blasted at me by how i chose to skip them. this can only help improve the quality of them. now if they were identifying me in any way i'd be PISSED, but this is not the case.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Does anyone else hear an incessant whisper chanting "GPLv3, GLPv3, GLPv3..."?
lots of moderators mod funny comments as insightful, because if the same comment is moderated as overrated, the poster's karma is decremented; +1 funny does not increment the poster's karma, but +1 insightful does...
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
... of course, since the hardware is subsidized by the monthly fee (its the razors and blades model -- or, more aptly, the cellphone and contract model), you'll end up paying up more upfront. "Extortion" is a funny word choice here -- is the machine threatening to burn down your house if you don't shell out your $14?
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
I completely don't understand why this is modded Funny.
Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
If collecting this data, why can't they keep track of the actual viewing stats? I'm all for increasing the sample size for ratings purposes. Give Nielson a run for their money. Heck, I'd consider buying one if they did that.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
If Tivo *is* tracking your individual viewing data, I can see several possibilities:
:)
1. You're female, in which case you can expect several middle-aged government agents to ask you for a date.
2. You're male, in which case, you probably don't want this becoming public.
3. You're female and did this at your boyfriend's, in which case *he* can expect several middle-aged government agents to ask him for a date.
4. You're female and did this at your EX-boyfriend's, in which case you're a baaaaaad girl!
5. You're bi-sexual, in which case your viewing habits have *completely* confused the spies anyway, so I wouldn't worry.
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
If you chose to go with MythTV or Freevo instead of TiVo, your hardware cost will probably be much higher than an off-the-shelf TiVo unit. So yes, TiVo customers have "forked over cash" but they probably forked over less cash than they would have for an alternative system.
A Myth box doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. Mine is a $200 second hand computer with a $40 DVB-T card off ebay. I get listings for free. Works a treat, and is also my main computer for just about everything else.
I think some people are under the false impression that you need dual core processors and the latest nVidia card to run MythTV. Nothing could be further from the truth. You need a tuner, a video card with TV out, a modest processor and some hard drive space.
i'm perfectly okay with tivo monitering my tv habits. that's just dumb.
I was too lazy to drag out a bill and check. I just opened their website at $12.95 was what they had posted. $20 is more expensive than $13, but it's still not ridiculously expensive. Go out for 3 beers and leave the bartender a tip and you just spent the same amount of money.
My TiVo unit cost $300 and can burn DVDs as well. I don't have HD service so that's a moot point for me. There are always other ways to get the same service. Bottom line is that my time is worth more than the difference in cost I'll save years after putting together a HTPC versus buying a TiVo off the shelf and having it "just work".
Not true. I said I'd "cross that bridge" when I have to. TiVo releasing aggregate statistics of their userbase is not that bridge. If TiVo ever decides to commoditize personally-identifiable information I'll have to decide if that's info I want/need to keep private and I can cancel my subscription at that time if necessary.
"Information collected is anonymous, and no personal statistics are retained." How many times have we heard that? How happy does it make you feel?
Sure, they can't find out that you, Willy Loman, record and re-watch the feminine hygiene commercials several times over. However, they do know through that lovely anonymous information, just how they can appeal better to different demographics and hone their pitches accordingly. This seems fairly harmless until you consider that the primary purpose of advertising is no longer to inform people of a product or its features. The primary purpose of advertising is to convince people to buy something they don't want, and more information will allow them to do this better all the time. Do you think you're too smart for them, that you don't buy stuff from ads but actually research things instead? You're the target they're after--YOU are the person they want to sell crap to, and the thing that made you watch a commercial during the Superbowl or Battlestar Galactica is the same thing that will eventually sell you tooth whiteners or "anti-bacterial" soap.
In short, just because it's anonymous collective information doesn't mean that it's not being used for nefarious purposes.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I was trying to do some quick tallies as I browsed MythTV.org earlier. I didn't come up with a precise figure but in my particular situation (TiVo series 2 Humax with DVD burner) it would've cost more than what I paid at the store for the TiVo. I'm sure there are plenty of lower-spec configurations that could be put together for less money, but there are also TiVo boxes as low as $70.
My point was never that there aren't other options or even that TiVo is a much better deal than putting together a home-made PVR, simply that TiVo is not raping its subscribers as much as certain posters would have people believe. I don't particularly think TiVo is cheap, but I don't find it expensive either. To me it's properly priced for the service it provides.
I quit watching TV, except for the news during dinnertime for the last few years. I just couldn't stand all the advertisements. I just got a Tivo last December for my wife. My wife is a nurse and likes to follow 24. She would miss episodes because she was late taking care of patients. Tivo is the best thing ever!
If they go ahead and gather our viewing habits... all the better. Maybe some of our TV content will improve when they see that no one watches most of the stupid crap they put on the air.
Ummmm let me see, I watch History Channel, Fox News, and 24 with my wife. And once in a while, an old, classic movie on TNT. That's about it. Oh and we spend about 40 minutes per hour doing it because I don't watch commercials. I want broadcasters to know that too. So there's nothing I don't want them to know about us, but a lot I do.
Another interesting thing to note. I was a big fan of the MacGyver series when it was on the air years ago. So out of nostalgia, I went and bought season 1 a few months ago (a little cheesier than I remember... but still fun to watch). 47 minutes for each episode! Confirmed my suspicions. Commercials are now 20 to 25 minutes per hour! I thought that I was maybe getting a little impatient in my old age. Not so, there really are a lot more commercials now than there used to be. This pushed TV to the point where it's not worth it to spend the time anymore. Tivo makes it TV worth watching again. We wouldn't need to bother with Tivo if advertisements were "fair" in terms of time (After all, we have a VCR;-). I want the networks to know this too: Viewers don't like being taken advantage of like this. Plus my wife hasn't missed an episode of 24 yet.
Go Tivo!
Fresh horses and more whiskey for my men.
I am an avid Tivo user, and sending this info didn't bother me once I found out they don't send user specific info. In fact, I WANT THEM TO DO THIS. Specifically I want them to send the info to both the Nielsen ratings people as well as the television companies themselves. Anything to KEEP the shows I love, and GET RID OF the television shows I hate.
In fact, as television commercials go, I want them to learn I like PBS style commercials. Whereas, the regular style of commercials are annoying and insipid. I heard talk they were going to consider a PBS style of companies sponsoring shows with specific ads, but nothing seemed to come from it. Basically PBS style sponsoring produces brand identity, typically are done in theme with the show, and come across as supporting the show you like. On the other hand regular style commercials seem to interfere with a show typically.
I really hope they send this info across, so that they bring back Futurama, and get rid of anything with David Caruso!
Party at O'zorgnax's Pub! Buy me a Slurmtini aye?
While I agree that there's no big threat from the statistical (as opposed to personally identifiable) data Tivo is collecting, I do think that it's important to protect privacy, both on the internet and in regards to our cable viewing habits. You lampoon the tin-foil-hat-wearers of the world with your Raven ravings, but that's pretty lame--instead of choosing a deliberately innocuous show for your example, why not say you like watching porn? My satellite provider offers many dozens of porn-only channels, and I've worked for VERY puritan bosses, and (given that I've worked with children, the mentally handicapped, and the elderly) they absolutely would have fired me if they had found out about my viewing habits. (Laugh if you will, but after a year I was pretty much pushed out of that job because my boss found out that I played D&D and listened to Metallica--both of which she considered Satanic.)
In all seriousness, though - I just assume that every bit of data that enters or exits my house is public knowledge. That's why I don't say things on the Internet I wouldn't take out an ad and say in a Newspaper for the world to see - I'm not paranoid and actually think anyone is actively looking, but I just find it good policy. It lets me live my life rather worry-free that something will ever "come back to haunt me".
Good for you. However, some of us do enjoy watching things more titillating than Raven. Some of us actually desire to exercise our freedom of speech. It's a risk we choose freely, of course, but that doesn't mean that we've sacrificed our right to privacy (and yes, I did say our RIGHT. The constitution does NOT grant our freedoms--it merely enumerates a few specific freedoms recognized to our founding fathers as universal to all mankind. Privacy was not specifically mentioned, yet it has been protected nonetheless by the courts as a fundamental right.)
I'm not arguing that TiVo's actions have (yet) in any way endangered this privacy, BUT... I do find it disturbing when people say "So what! Let them rummage through my viewing habits/my emails/my nightstand drawer! I have nothing to hide!" It is precisely because you have nothing to hide that you should be indignant about invasions of privacy--if no one has any reason to suspect you've done anything wrong (i.e. reason enough to get a search warrant), they have no business nosing around in your personal life. Even if you NEVER plan on using your own personal right to privacy, you might at least defend it on principle--for the rest of us.
I thought that the puritanical "long haired hippy freaks" nonsense was long gone--I thought that it was possible to listen to relatively tame metal bands like Metallica, play D&D, read Lovecraft, and keep your hair long without being treated like a pariah. But you know what? I was wrong. There are still PLENTY of ignorant, control-freak assholes out there who cannot tell the difference between "individuality" and "Satanism".
Why do you assume the vast majority of people like what you like?
Prepare for disappointment.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
YOu are under the impression that 'hacker friendly' means the hacker will be friendly to you.
And the provide a service and a box someone pays for, that is all.
If the government says gives us all your data down to the individual, and they say no and foight it in court, then they can have respect.
I am using windows 2000 and I got support and updates for 7 years..big deal.
three things:
1) There is no need for bold caps, we can read.
2) There is no need for Exclaimation point, we don't like to be yelled at.
3) This is the internet, you can say fuck here.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
opting out is only for them to collect personal information, they still send your anonymous data.
Also, most companies don't give a rats ass if you modify the item once you get it.
The it industry has FAR more then it's share of people who get in a twist over this.
I look around and see speakers..yep I can hacl...microwave? yep..blender? yep, couch? yel, house? yep, car? yep, trees? yep/ Picture frams? yep...and so on, and so forth.
Probably less then 2 % of all companinies give a rats ass what you do with the product you purchase bacause it is not their problem.
You know what I get to do tomorrow? hack a Canon digital camera and no one will care.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Wasn't the original usefulness of TIVO (before we realized it was nice to time-shift shows) to allow us to tell "the powers that be" what we liked or hated? I don't mean last week, but like circa *1996* or so?
:)
Next you'll be telling me that when I join a music club they report my sales upstream!
And next week: fire? Fact or Fantasy?
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
Using hardware protection(Soldered prom) so you can't patch the tivoapp application. Nothing like a little hardware drm to say hacker friendly.
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
You're paying a fee for the Tivo service in general, you still get your value for that. In addition, one could hope that the this-commercial-is-crap vs this-commercial-is-liked data would do well to inform advertisers as to what people like, and thus reduce the amount of crap commercials (some commercials are actually damn funny)
for those us not addicted to the mindless tripe called television. Of course it's the ultimate way to keep the masses from thinking for themselves. The perfect secret weapon...
Enjoy!
mac_8100_g3
Personally, I choose not to opt out, because I want advertisers and content producers and others to know what I'm watching--maybe that will encourage them to produce more of the stuff I like.
This is completely untrue. From TiVo's privacy policy: Since TiVo's privacy policy is publicly available and easy to check, I am curious about your motivation for posting such a lie. Do you have some personal score to settle with TiVo, or are you shorting their stock?
> Is 2 quarters a day really an over-inflated price
> for a service that automates recording my favorite
> shows and allows me to fast-forward commercials
> that I don't want to watch?
I have a LiteOn PVR that records my favorite shows without Tivo.
My LiteOn records about 80 hours of tv at reasonable quality without added fees and privacy concerns. It allows me to ff past commercials and it can record my shows to DVD. The hard drive and burner can be replaced by anyone of moderate skill if they ever fail. It cost me a one-time payment of $130 dollars. It's a nice little box.
I pay for cable tv. I pay a LOT for cable tv. Analog, not digital. And they've been raising rates pretty damned frequently as they add more digital channels and pass on their expenses to users. So I'm already paying a premium for a service that I don't use.
Paying an extra $13 dollars each month for a service that offers no special features over my existing PVR or even a standard $10 dollar per month PVR from the cable company AND which delivers more ads and threatens what little privacy I have left seems incredibly offensive to me.
I'm being gouged enough already, thank you.
Ok after everyone has finished unleashing their tinfoil hat comments lets just think very carefully about what could happen to that info.
A few posters made comments like "as long as they don't have my credit card and address I could give a shit". Well even my grandmother understands you DON'T NEED a NAME or ADDRESS in the great US of A to steal someone's identity. One!
Two. Selling my viewing habits without my consent or more importantly compensation is wrong. If the tables were reversed you can bet your fat, couch potato ass TIVO and company would be pounding you into the ground with lawyers.
Three. TIVO is NOT collecting the information to better serve their customers. They're collecting it to find better ways to pound their customers over the head with advertising THEY DON'T WANT TO WATCH! Isn't that one of the reasons for TIVO like devices!?
Christ. Why on earth would anyone want a TIVO. You can build your own for the same price and without all the DRM, copy-restricted BS that apparently TIVO users think enhances their viewing experience.
Remember this is not Sony root-kitting your PC, this is Tivo letting you hack the system they sold you.
"Letting?"
Allow me to rephrase.
"This is one company which is not getting their panties in a bunch when I modify my own equipment which I bought fair and square."
I'd like to have the option to sell companies my viewer data. I could set a price on certain time segments, companies could bid in an open market, and if their bid went over my limit, they'd get the data I was willing to sell.
As for commercials, I don't want them improved. I want them eradicated from my screen altogether. Which is why I'm hardly likely to leave decisions about advertising in the hands of those whose business model involves selling to marketers.
To be completely fair, though, I would like to retain the ability to go searching through existing advertising. I may want to buy something of a certain type, or I may want to catch a popular cultural meme. But I don't want to see anything unrelated to my search, and I certainly don't want to see advertising at any other time.