Why Americans Don't Buy DVD Recorders

Ant writes "CNET News.com reports on the reasons behind the unpopularity of DVD recorders in the US. The devices, which have seen heavy support in Europe and Asia, fall flat in the United States. The biggest reason is the penetration of Cable television. With cable, the same show can appear on a channel several times. In Europe and Japan, viewers need to grab copies of shows when they can, as it could be some time before the episode is broadcast again. TiVo also took off more rapidly in the States and elsewhere. TiVo is also one of the reasons selling TVs with embedded hard drives in the States remains a challenge."

Comments

What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[elrous0]

The big problem with DVD recorders for me (as an American) is that getting a show off my DVR and into a recorder is a pain in the ass. I have to play it off in realtime and I can't watch anything else while I'm doing it, since it all has to be done manaully.

There was a time for me when this was much different. I used to have a Humax Tivo/DVD-recorder combo unit that let me burn off shows from my Tivo to DVD-R at faster than real time and still watch other stuff while I did it (it burned in the background). But, thanks to the paranoia of the studios/networks/cable-companies and the DRM-laden standards for digital cable and HDTV, there is now no such combo unit made that can take a cablecard or record HD programs (sadly, I had to abandon my old Humax when I got digital cable a while back).

Thanks MPAA, cable companies, and networks!

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[gnick]

You just need a better DVR. For a couple of hundred bucks + a couple of hours of effort, I revamped an old PC into a DVR with BeyondTV (I know - MythTV is free and you don't need Windows, but that's the way I went.) No subscription fees and HD if your tuner card supports it. And, if I want to burn something, I throw a blank DVD-R into the DVD drive and burn.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[elrous0]

Will it take a cablecard from my cable company? If the answer is "no," then it's absolutely worthless to me.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Sancho]

I was tempted by DVD recorders many times. The main reasons I never took the plunge are:
- Too expensive. I kept waiting for the prices to drop, and they never did. When I stopped caring, they were just under $1,000.
- Low recording capacity. I think the blanks are good for 2 hours. It may vary based upon quality, but quality matters--I'd rather have VHS than low-quality digital.
- TiVo hacking. Eventually, I got a TiVo, and could extract shows on my own, and burn them to (slightly out-of-spec) DVD.

I finally got rid of the TiVo when I got satellite, but now don't care so much about archiving. My DVR gets the shows, I watch them, then I delete them. I came to realize that most of the stuff that I wanted more-permanent copies of, I rarely watched again, anyway.

So the truth is, for me, a DVR is all I want. Swapping DVD blanks and low recording times make the solution completely unacceptable at this point, even if they came down in price significantly.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[gnick]

No - It can't decode what's coming in off of my satellite either, but that doesn't matter. The computer has an IR flasher that tunes the satellite receiver (or cable box or whatever as long as it has an IR receiver), whose output goes into the tuner card. It does, however, require using a remote that the computer can receive from. Since that remote is RF rather than IR, I consider it a marked improvement.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything this commenter says is also applicable to the High Def Recorder. Combining a TV tuner and a hard drive is not technically difficult. Yet, you cannot buy an off the air HD DVR unless it is a Sat TV or Cable co rental box. The short answer is that "they" don't want you to be able to cache programming in any way "they" don't absolutely control. Witness the move for "video on demand" which is really a remote cache of programming delivered to your house by their servers.

I hope someone comes out with a new HD DVR by 2009, as my Sony gets it's time stamp from analog programming signals, and I really don't want to pay a rental fee for a new unit.

Meanwhile, in Japan, Korea, "down under", and much of Europe, there are not only DVR's, but HD DVR's that BURN TO BLU RAY.....Why can't I buy one of those ???? I have money, and there are thousands, possibly millions of me out there.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Buelldozer]

You bring out some good points but I'd like to add convenience to your list.

DVD Burners are inconvenient in two striking ways:

First, there is no access to the stinking GUIDE! A DVR has access, one way or another, to the program scheduling. Without that a DVD Burner has to be programmed to record manually and that's just too much of a hassle.

Second, after having a TIVO going back to a system that requires manual programming is bad enough. Going back to a system that requires manual programming AND the manual insertion of media is just too much.

It's far easier, more convenient, to use a DVR.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[xaxa]

The lowest quality on my parents' DVD recorder gives about 6 hours to a disc, and is (according to the manual) VHS quality (possibly slightly better, I can't remember). I think the only benefit for a DVDR over a DVR is my mum (a teacher) can record something at home and take it to school very easily (there's lots of educational programs -- good ones! -- on BBC overnight in the UK, and DVDs are much, much nicer than VHS tapes in school -- no rewinding, no chewed tape, and the quality remains).

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Anonymous Coward]

It can't decode what's coming in off of my satellite either Anyone who can afford their own satellite can surely afford to have somebody else build them a DVR.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Sancho]

VHS quality is very deceptive. What that usually means is 320x240 at 30fps resolution, or 320x288 at 25fps, which will appear fairly blocky on large TVs. Real VHS will appear blurry rather than blocky--to me, it's superior, but I understand that different people may have different tastes.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[elrous0]

but now don't care so much about archiving

God, I miss my old Humax. It was so perfect for that purpose. I still have several shows that I watch that I had archived on that unit. The most important (and I'm so glad I saved it off to DVD-R) was a 2-part miniseries that aired on the National Geographic Channel called Space Race. This was one of the most fascinating documentaries on the Russian and U.S. space programs I've ever seen (in fact, being an American and having to deal with pro-American Cold War censorship, this is the ONLY documentary I've ever seen on the Russian space program). It only aired once and it's never been released on DVD in the states (and probably never will, thanks to the aforementioned pro-American censorship that's sadly still the norm here). If I hadn't had my Humax and been able to burn it off to a DVD, I would probably never be able to watch it again. I've even made copies of it for many of my family and friends (I would have gladly paid for it, if someone would have only given me the opportunity).

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Anonymous Coward]

With a R5000-HD you can record HD off of Dish Network and some cable boxes.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[ardent99]

I have a wonderful Panasonic device I bought last year. It is a combination DVR/VCR/DVD recorder, with TV Guide Online. It is one of the best purchases I ever made. The integration of the functions is great. I can select a program in the TV guide mode, and with a click or two of the remote tell it to record that show to the hard disk when it comes on. Most of the time I don't need to get it off the hard disk, so I just delete it when I'm done. But occasionally, like for a good movie, I can edit out the commercials, and then copy it to a DVD in high-speed copy mode, and voila, there's my archive copy. It also supports recording one show while playing back a different one, or chasing playback where it plays the same show that is being recorded ahead. It's a perfect example of well-designed integration of functions, and got me to replace the stack of components I had before. Even my girlfriend, who tends to rail on bad technology design every chance she gets, fell in love with it.

Anyway, Panasonic discontinued this model, and hasn't replaced it with a new one with the same capabilities. I suspect it has to do with pressure from the movie industry; I saw a rumor to that effect somewhere online, but I don't know for sure. I can't imagine Panasonic did it voluntarily, because during the time it was on the market (2006-2007) it was a hot seller. I guess I got lucky buying it in the window of opportunity.

So I suspect there would be a lot more variety of video gadgets, and a lot more familiarity and interest in them among Americans, if the movie industry weren't allowed to strong arm the electronics market. I think if you looked at the economics of it, they are single-handedly responsible for depressing a big segment of the economy.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Otto]

Yet, you cannot buy an off the air HD DVR unless it is a Sat TV or Cable co rental box. The TivoHD will record OTA HD directly. You do have to pay the Tivo monthly fee for the guide data and such, however. Or buy the lifetime service.

Admittedly, it's aimed at Cable customers with it's CableCard support. But it will record over-the-air HD channels as well.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[trolltalk.com]

LG LRA-850 - $99.00 just before christmas, so I bought 3.

Easy to use:

1. stick blank dvd in (I use rewriteables)
2. asks if you want to initialize disk - hit "ok"
3. show starts - hit record button
4. show's over - hit eject

Wait a minute while it creates the menus and finalizes the disc, and you're done.

As a bonus, it also plays divx files just fine.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[HTH NE1]

I still have my Humax DVD-R TiVo, but it too has fallen to disuse. I don't even use it to play back DVDs, even though the 8-second replay option is something I've wanted in a DVD player. Its burner has only been used to burn episodes of The Daily Show and The Colbert Report on a lark of archiving a full year "because I can", until I missed an episode due to expiration. Now there's no point: I can do a much better job using my Mac.

Its limitations today are that I can't burn podcasts (without laundering them through the analog hole), I can't transfer HD programming to it (even just as a backing store), and it will only burn content it records itself. I can transfer anything (except podcasts) to my desktop computer and burn them as files for off-line storage, but I can't burn video as files using the Humax TiVo. And no editing features either. Not even trimming the start or end.

Of course, the early problems with the Humax presaged it falling to disuse, such as the response to the remote ranging from non-responsive to sluggish to double-triggering commands. Though current software running on it seems to have corrected these problems without having to send it in for repair (who can part with a TiVo for repair?), it finally fell to disuse when I could reliably record HD content with the Series3.

Even now, I'm more interested in using my Mac to capture HD content over Firewire and burning to 3x DVD or capturing anamorphically down-converted HD content from the Series3 for DVD.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[ehrichweiss]

I get about 7.5-8 hours on my disks. Quality isn't bad at that compression either. And I only paid about $80 for it. Even works with my satellite receiver.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Inda]

They're £50 ($100) in the UK at the moment. With a USB slot in the front that claims DiVX playback. People here, in the near future, will no longer buy normal DVD players.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Citizen of Earth]

I have to play it off in realtime and I can't watch anything else while I'm doing it

My Scientific Atlanta DVR has a "copy-to-VCR" function that plays a recording on S-Video/Composite output #2 and allows me to simultaneously surf channels on the main output. In total, I can simultaneously record two different shows (analog, DTV, HDTV), copy a third recorded/recording show to VCR, and watch a fourth recorded/ing show.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[init100]

I get about 7.5-8 hours on my disks. Quality isn't bad at that compression either.

Eight hours of MPEG2-encoded video? I record TV (SDTV, PAL, 720x576) at what WinTV2000 calls DVD Extra Long Play, which is MPEG2 at 3 Mbit/s. After removing the commercials, I usually compress them into 1 Mbit/s XviD. After I have done that, around eight hours fits into a DVD, with a picture quality almost indistinguishable from the original MPEG2 material.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a ..mumble.. DVR and a separate DVD recorder/burner with a hard drive. I start playing the show I've recorded from the DVR and start recording to the hard drive on the DVD recorder and set the timer so it shuts off automatically and then do something else (I'll start this at night sometimes and go to sleep). After it's done, I edit the show I recorded and remove the commercials. I know the broadcaster really, really hates it when I do that. Doing that, I can easily fit 3 hours on a two hour DVD. Of course, this is SD not HD, oh well. BTW, when I'm finished with that, I'll rip those to my 'puter and save the DVD's in a binder.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[TargetBoy]

My TimeWarner DVR has a second set of outputs and a "Copy to VCR" function. Normally, when you use the DVR, whatever you are watching comes from both outputs. However, when you use "Copy to VCR" whatever is playing on the DVR playback channel goes out Output 2 and you can still watch TV on Output 1.

I've been burning shows for the kids to DVD so we can record more shows on the DVR and still have them for playback.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[grimarr]

I have a Toshiba RS-TX20, and it works well. It's a DVR, with TiVo, and a DVD-R recorder. It's not HD, but it has all the TiVo series 2 features, and after recording something, you can just select "Record to DVD", and burn it to a disk. There are various quality levels, we usually use the lowest, and get 6 hours on a disc. Cost about $350 a couple of years ago, IIRC. You can even use it somewhat from the front panel, without the remote, which is almost unheard of these days, but has come in really handy a time or two.

In theory, it can record one show from the air/cable, let you watch a prerecorded show, and save another show to disc, simultaneously. I have found that it's best to have it do nothing else while it's burning, though, to avoid coasters. Since it takes only about 45 minutes to burn 6 hours onto a disc, no problem.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[pla]

The big problem with DVD recorders for me (as an American) is that getting a show off my DVR and into a recorder is a pain in the ass.

Doesn't that kinda misses the point of both devices?


I have a DVR as well as a DVD recorder...

I use the former for day-to-day crap that I can't catch live (or even if I can, I'll usually record it and watch the next day, just so I can skip the commercials).

I use the latter to catch programs that I'll either want to watch more than once (or one-time broadcasts that will never make it to a DVD set yet have some "archival" value to my interests), or that I want to share with someone who may not have cable (more common, at least in my area, than you may believe).


I can record on both of them at the same time, however, when necessary (even the same show, if I really wanted to).

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Anonymous Coward]

Hasn't anyone heard of Tivo2go? You can transfer your TiVo recordings to your computer or other devices. Yes, there is some DRM on these recordings, but if you burn them to DVD from your computer, you can play the DVD anywhere, without DRM.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[CSMatt]

The monthly fee for the TiVo service is outrageous, and TiVo ended their lifetime service payment option a few years ago. You can still buy gift cards on eBay that will activate new units with lifetime service until March of this year (Or was it last year? I don't remember.), but the last time I checked they were so rare people were bidding over $700 for a card that initially cost $300. Hell, I remember having to pay about $650 for my new Series2 DT with lifetime service, and that was over a year ago.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[yuna49]

I have an LG DVDR/VCR combo unit, and like it quite a bit as well. I bought it primarily to dub old VHS recordings onto DVD, but I use it for off-air recordings as well. It even supports the S-VHS format, which a few of my tapes were in. Using the DVD recorder produces quite acceptable quality even at the 6-hour speed, especially for live programs like sporting events. Unless I want to archive something, I use DVD+RW disks and just write over them. As fewer amd fewer people have VCRs, it's nice to be able to share a program with a friend using standard-format DVDs.

Being able to play DivX/XviD files was another big plus for me since I watch fansubbed anime. I would write the files to a DVD on my computer, then play them on my TV using the LG. Even in the current generation of upscaling DVD players, there are manufacturers who still don't support DivX playback, notably Sony. I bought a Sony upscaling player and immediately exchanged it for a Panasonic S53 when I discovered the Sony wouldn't play DivX. However, the value of DivX playback has faded somewhat since I bought an HDTV and connected a computer to it directly. This method has the additional advantage over the DVD player of letting me play shows in the Matroska or standard (non-DivX) MPEG4 containers.

My positive experiences with this device made me wonder about the initial topic.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[yuna49]

I agree entirely with this comment. I keep looking into TiVo recorders, but having to pay $13 a month for the program guide is truly outrageous. In comparison, I pay Verizon the equivalent amount for their movie package consisting of all the Starz, Encore, Showtime, and Sundance programming including video-on-demand options. Asking me to pay the same amount of money for a program guide shows a real lack of perspective.

I wish I had bought in during the lifetime membership period, but alas, that's not available any more as far as I can tell.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[MemoryDragon]

Actually almost 100% of the so called DVD recorders over here are DVRs with burn capabilities. Most people never ever use the burn function they just use it as combined DVR with DVD capabilities, since burning most shows is not worth the effort. After watching a show it usually is deleted. Most people simply use it to record shows and to watch it at convenient times (and to skip the ads of course!)

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[jargon82]

He blew all his money on the sat.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[donaldm]

The Article is a little vague on if people in the US don't like DVD recorders or Hard Disk Drive (HDD) DVD recorders. I did a check on your Humax Tivo/DVD-recorder combo unit, it is what we call in Australia a HDD DVD recorder and it is much more popular than a DVD recorder even though this is cheaper. From your link it is almost identical to my LG RH7521W however yours had a dual digital tuner while mine has a single analog tuner, still I got mine fairly cheap about three years ago. I have found a HDD DVD player/recorder is very flexible and convenient, my wife finds it very easy to use compared to our old, now defunct VCR. I would personally find a DVD player/recorder a pain since it would not be that much different than a VCR which is almost dead (DVD/VCR combos are still popular but I think the demand is dropping) in Australia.

I have Foxtel and while Foxtel in Australia is standard definition I can connect the digital set-top box to my recorder composite in but my recorder can do component out and it converts the output to PAL progressive scan (PAL 576p) and the sound to coaxial which I feed to my amplifier. The picture when converted to PAL 576p can look quite nice on my HDTV although on occasions we need to set our amplifier to 2 channel stereo for older shows (one button push). While I have not done an Australian survey I notice that DVD player/recorders are mainly sold in shops or in markets that sell cheap items so you get what you pay for, which IMHO is not much. Most department stores may have one or two token DVD player/recorders but HDD DVD player/recorders dominate. I have a feeling the author of the article has not done his homework.

If and when Foxtel goes to High Definition (not the stupid so called HD which shrinks to half size on my HDTV) I hope they are not going to charge me extra since I am getting a bit put off with all the commercials and this will make me look at alternative HDTV methods. Unfortunately I have never seen a HDD DVD recorder that can take HD component in which sort of defeats the purpose since DVD is still standard definition. If I get a HDD Blu-ray player/recorder I would definately want to record HD via component in with HDMI and component out. I have a feeling I am going to be waiting a while.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[demon]

There's more than just the guide you're paying for - if you have broadband service (I do), you get access to TiVoCast video downloads, TiVoToGo, TiVoToComeBack, music streaming, photo viewing, Yahoo! weather, and other features - and of course, it helps to pay for software maintenance/development for the TiVo codebase. Also, I guess I don't feel like $13 is that much - it would by me lunch for approximately one day, and I'm not strapped for cash now. Certainly not to the point that one day's lunch a month isn't worth it for the convenience I get from it.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[gosand]

I was tempted by DVD recorders many times. The main reasons I never took the plunge are:
- Too expensive. I kept waiting for the prices to drop, and they never did. When I stopped caring, they were just under $1,000.

Hmm, maybe then - but I have two of the PYE PY90DG recorders. They were $90 when I bought mine. I initially bought one to replace the dead VCR. I liked it so much I ended up getting another one.

- Low recording capacity. I think the blanks are good for 2 hours. It may vary based upon quality, but quality matters--I'd rather have VHS than low-quality digital.

Mine has several settings, I usually record on 3 hr setting, which is about in the middle. Quality to me isn't that big of a deal, but I haven't been caught up in the "look my TV/penis is bigger than yours" mindset. I don't care about HD or having a 52" TV. Yes, I've seen them - whooptie doo.


- TiVo hacking. Eventually, I got a TiVo, and could extract shows on my own, and burn them to (slightly out-of-spec) DVD.

I was going to go with a TiVo, several of my friends had them and I know you can hack them to get shows off. But for the price (at the time) I got the DVD recorder. I use RW disks, and if there is something I record that I want to keep (rarely) I can rip it and re-encode it as divx. I know that DVRs have all kinds of cool functionality - there just isn't much that I watch that I really really have to see. Everyone I know with a DVR has tons of shows they've been meaning to watch and haven't gotten around to it. I find I don't really miss it all that much if I don't get to see something. And if there is something I really want to see that I miss, I just wait a day or so and fire up Ktorrent. :)

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[elrous0]

No, they complemented each other very nicely. First a show comes into the DVR. There I can decide if it's worth archiving or not. If it is, then it gets burned off to DVD. Easy peasy! If the two were seperate, it would require a lot more manual work to move shows from one to the other.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[elrous0]

The last time I used Tivo2Go (and, admittedly this was when back it first came out) it took forever to move a show to the computer (it was using USB 1.1 I think), was complicated to set up (required some $50 piece of software from Sonic, IIRC), and took forever to prepare and burn the disc. I'm sure it's improved since then, but I'm still skeptical on just how easy this is.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Sancho]

Mine has several settings, I usually record on 3 hr setting, which is about in the middle. Quality to me isn't that big of a deal, but I haven't been caught up in the "look my TV/penis is bigger than yours" mindset. I don't care about HD or having a 52" TV. Yes, I've seen them - whooptie doo. It's not just a pissing contest--you can't buy a new SD TV in most big box stores these days (at least, not around here.) Even the pawn shops don't tend to take them, and when they have them in, you're taking a risk on it that it's going to be half broken. Buying online is fine, but then you're paying huge shipping fees.

The world is moving to flatscreens, which means they're moving to fixed resolutions and crappy scaling for anything that doesn't evenly divide into its resolution (and in some cases, for things which do but are just much smaller.)

I dislike it. To me, CRTs look better for SD content. But I'm also realistic--when my TV dies, I'm probably not going to have the choice to get a CRT.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[mbourgon]

What's the model?

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[onemorechip]

I bought one years ago, and it made sense at the time. I wanted DVR functionality but didn't want to buy into Tivo's subscription model. And, I didn't yet have even a DVD player, so this gave me both functions in one unit. This was around the year 2000, I think. I don't remember the price, except that it was well below a thousand bucks -- maybe in the $500 neighborhood.

I had no complaints about it for several years. It beat the hell out of videotape for convenience (no rewinding), and recording quality was good, too. But of course I could only record one program at a time. I structured my viewing schedule around those limitations -- I'd have to watch certain shows live. And with only a few hours recording time (I can't remember how many exactly), I'd still have to shuffle media around once the backlog exceeded the limit.

I never used it for archiving. I reused the same DVD-RAM disk maybe hundreds of times, with one or two spares to handle the excess.

For the past couple of years I've had a cable box with built-in DVR, so I can watch one recorded show while recording two others -- and I rarely watch anything live anymore except for sports events and occasional channel surfing. I don't use the recording function of my DVD recorder anymore, but I still use the same unit to watch DVDs.

So while it made sense (for me) in 2000, it would be pointless to buy one today.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Sancho]

Huh. I would have sworn that it was around 2000 that I stopped looking. I had DVD player at the time (in my computer, plugged into my TV) but I decided that even with $60/year for TiVo, I'd rather have that.

Maybe I'm misremembering the timeframe, or maybe I didn't look hard enough for a recorder.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides, pirated disks are sooo much cheaper and more convenient

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[Otto]

The monthly fee for the TiVo service is outrageous, and TiVo ended their lifetime service payment option a few years ago. No, they offer lifetime for the TivoHD right now, for $399. No gift cards or anything else required.

Now, this may be as part of the multi-service discount, for current Tivo owners. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not, their deals change every few weeks. I know that up until recently they had a gift deal, where any Tivo owner could purchase a TivoHD with lifetime for somebody else for ~$700.

I agree that their service is overpriced straight-up, but it's not as bad if you look for the deals. I have two units, one of which I've had since 2001. I'm paying only $7 a month for service.

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[ivan256]

With the latest update to the series 3 tivos, you can download shows onto your computer and then burn them to DVD in faster than real-time. They force you to run Windows and by DVD burning software from Sonic to do it, but it's still cheaper than buying a standalone DVD recorder. It reduces the shows to SD resolution when you burn them to DVD, but a standalone recorder would do that too...

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[onemorechip]

I'd have to go back and look at my records from the time. I know it wasn't $1000, because I never spent that much for any piece of home entertainment equipment (until I bought a widescreen TV two or three years ago). Also, I might be a little off on the time frame. I can remember buying a VA Linux computer with DVD-RAM drive at about the same time, though -- which puts it before June, 2001 (when they went out of the hardware business).

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[r3b00tm0nk3y]

Which model? I'm in the market for one of these.

TIA

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[ardent99]

DMR-EH75VS

Re:What DVD recorders COULD be, but aren't

[yuna49]

LG RC199H

IN/ON Demand

[Anonymous Coward]

Howard Stern rules.

I have one

[rmadmin]

I have a DVD recorder. Does RW's. Basically it has replaced my VCR. Personally, I love it and wish I had gotten one earlier.

Re:I have one

[jawtheshark]

Same here... However, I'm European. Basically confirming the story. TiVo and similar simply doesn't exist here, so the only alternative is hard-disk based recorders (without the service like with TiVo), but those are really expensive compared to a simple DVD+R recorder. (Mine does only DVD+R, but that's okay.)

Re:I have one

[BlueBat]

I have a DVD recorder as, it also does RW's. My problem is I have tried to record channel 8 which is CBS and every time that I try to record it the sound acts wonky. It plays fine for maybe 30 seconds and then all sound cuts off for 2 or 3 seconds. It happens every time. I think it's some sort of DRM crap going on here and just figure that when I no longer have a VCR I will just give up on that channel and all of its shows. If the other stations follow suit, I'll just give up on TV completely. I do love to read a good book so it wont be a major loss for me, just annoying as all hell.

Re:I have one

[rmadmin]

Ah. I only record movie channels. I pretty much have given up on TV. The kids need their cartoons. Other than that, I don't have a reason for it. Netflix gets me all my movies now. :D

Re:I have one

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it this one?

Toshiba DR-2 DVD Recorder/Player with Simultaneous Play and Record

Re:I have one

[bigtomrodney]

Where in Europe are you? I know in the UK and Ireland there is Sky+ available for PVR style management. I'm actually using it now, I'm in Ireland so I found the summary a little surprising.

Re:I have one

[Anonymous Coward]

"However, I'm European. Basically confirming the story."

If I make the statement that "Europeans are morons." and you confirm that you are in fact a moron, have you confirmed the statement? Anecdotal examples mean nothing. People on Slashdot need to stop referencing them. Your existence confirms nothing on the general trend of DVD recorders.

Re:I have one

[jawtheshark]

Luxembourg... The market is not big enough. We always get technology 20 years later at 10x the price. Heck, our broadband was 256kbps/64kbps just a mere 5 years ago. Now it's 2048/192kbps, which is not stellar compared to our neighbours.

Re:I have one

[jawtheshark]

And you have not paid attention to your "philosophy of science" classes. While verifying a theory, every time your theory confirms reality it is hardened a bit. That said, you will never be able to prove it 100% because for that you'd require an infinity of confirmations which of course not possible. Only falsification can prove a theory wrong, nothing can prove it right... What can be done it confirm it, which is what I did. Go study some Popper, mmkay?

Re:I have one

[rrkap]

Do you get your TV over the air or via cable or satellite? If it is one of the later two, then I'm amazed that DVR's with service aren't available from your cable or satellite company for a modest fee. Mine is $11/month for a 160 GB unit and is integrated with the program guide. I couldn't imagine going back to a VCR (or VCR equivalent like the DVD recorder) without the ability to record 2 programs at once (while you're watching a third, recorded show), pause live TV or record several hours of TV on a day when the programming is good so that I have something to watch when I get home from work.

Re:I have one

[jawtheshark]

See response here. I get my TV over cable. As said, Europe. You're talking dollars, which indicates me a whole other continent.

Re:I have one

[init100]

so the only alternative is hard-disk based recorders (without the service like with TiVo), but those are really expensive compared to a simple DVD+R recorder.

I agree, DVD recorders with built-in hard-drives are ridiculously expensive. A unit with a 250 GB drive costs almost $500. Most computers today have ample hard-drive space, and usually also a DVD writer. Add a tuner card for $100, and you have a working HDD-equipped DVD recorder, only more useful, as it can also be used to strip commercials and encode the material into XviD. For me, a standalone DVD recorder, with or without HDD, would be almost worthless.

That said, I love my standalone DVD player with DivX support, a Philips DVP-3142 that I got for $40. That's value for money.

Re:I have one

[mattack2]

You can strip commercials on hard-drive/DVD recorder combinations. I did it for many years on my XS32. Now I use it mainly to record stuff that I want to watch in 1.5x speed with sound (things like the news & some documentaries & some reality shows.. not scripted entertainment). Since I now have Tivos that can officially do transfer to computers, I'm going to try that again (though since I'm using a Mac, I'll be using third party software rather than buying Toast).. But I think that my Toshiba XS32 was well worth the ~$400 I paid several years ago.
I would have far preferred a Tivo/DVD recorder combination, but you can't edit nor do multi-session writes on them.

Re:I have one

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not DRM -- you just have some crappy audio limiter in your recorder. Try a different brand.

Re:I have one

[Sockatume]

This makes me wonder if the story hasn't got it all backwards. At the time when Tivo was taking off, most of the UK got by with analogue terrestrial TV, and punching in Videoplus codes from the TV guide or Teletext to record things. There were plenty of cable and satellite TV customers, but until Sky+ appeared (at its massive premium) nobody was pushing the PVR option and all the boxes were set up to make it as easy as possible to set up a VHS recording. Meanwhile, people's VCRs were breaking down. What were they going to replace them with? PVRs just don't exist as far as stores and cable/sat companies are concerned. Not another VCR, videotape's an old technology, DVD's the new thing. And so the showrooms squeezed the VCRs out in favour of expensive, shiny new DVD recorders with customers snapped up.
That's why DVD recorders are popular - because nobody knew PVRs existed.

Re:I have one

[BlueBat]

I doubt that it's the audio limiter. It ONLY happens on that channel and I can even watch the channel while it's recording and nothing is happening with the audio. It's only on the recording when I go to play it back.

Eh?

[Malevolent Tester]

In Europe and Japan, viewers need to grab copies of shows when they can, as it could be some time before the episode is broadcast again

The author must be watching a different BBC to the one I get.

Re:Eh?

[Smackheid]

As the AC said a few posts down, yes, British TV has followed the American model with at least several repeats a week of most shows. But there's still plenty of documentaries and specials and such that are never (or very rarely) replayed and that don't get released on DVD.

They don't have this problem in the States (less documentaries coupled with a willingness to flog everything everywhere).

Re:Eh?

[Kuukai]

Ditto for Japan. In fact, lots of (anime, at least) shows go through the same 2-week-delayed cable rerun cycle you only see with extremely popular shows in America (House, Family Guy).

Re:Eh?

[KDR_11k]

On the other hand, I'm in Germany, we've got cable and as far as I can tell reruns only happen within 24 hours (usually the rerun is very late at night) if we ignore the old reruns (from the previous season or even earlier, rarely shown in sequence).

Re:Eh?

[hyfe]

The author must be watching a different BBC to the one I get.

Europe does contain parts not Britain. In fact. a rather large part of Europe is by many people considered to be 'not Britain'.

Re:Eh?

[MLCT]

It depends on the show. Timewatch on BBC2 has been on for the last couple of weeks - one on Omaha beach & one on the viking ship sailing around Scotland. Neither of those were repeated, or will be (for some unspecific number of years on the BBC until they have some time to fill at 2am).

Re:Eh?

[TheRaven64]

Try visiting the USA for a month. BBC 3 repeats a lot of stuff, but most of the channels you get on cable don't repeat films and only repeat shows once or twice in a short period. A lot of the channels in the US show the same films every week for a month or so.

Re:Eh?

[drsquare]

A lot of the channels in the US show the same films every week for a month or so.

British satellite TV shows the same films every hour over and over again for weeks, as well as offering a DVR service.

Re:Eh?

[mattack2]

Prime time network TV does not have "several repeats a week". It's really only the extended basic cable and premium channels that have original programming (e.g. HBO & Showtime) that do the many-repeats in the same week thing.

As much as a lot of people say they don't watch TV, or don't watch network TV, even with the ratings down for network TV, it is the majority of what is watched.
(In fact, even with Tivos, I would pay for a channel that just repeated the network channels' content for the next day. This would make it easier to deal with conflicts or make sure I could add padding on both ends of all shows. I'd pay more if it didn't have the animated bugs on it.)

Re:Eh?

[Smackheid]

Prime time network TV does not have "several repeats a week"

True, I might be exaggerating a bit, but a lot of major network shows get rebroadcast on basic cable, sometimes in the same week. Plus, anything that makes it to 3 seasons now has a ridiculously good chance of getting picked up for syndication somewhere. Last, but not least, there's so many niche channels and nostalgia channels, just 1 decent season of episodes is enough to get you a least a couple of re-runthroughs.

That's still not counting "encore presentations" and marathons and actual bona fide repeats during a given season.

Re:Eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Rule of thumb: when it's not an island, it's not Britain.

Re:Eh?

[mattack2]

I can only think of a couple of network shows that regularly get repeat on basic cable -- the apprentice, 1 vs 100, and whichever law & order was actually *moved* to cable until NBC decided to air it because of the writer's strike. There have been a few other relatively short experiments (several months of Heroes on Sci Fi).

Personally I don't watch syndicated reruns since there's a lot of stuff cut out for more commercials. Thankfully, even cancelled shows are often showing up on DVD nowadays.

TVs with HDs?

[flanksteak]

TiVo is also one of the reasons selling TVs with embedded hard drives in the States remains a challenge.

They're making TV's with embedded HDs? I hadn't heard about this. Is this like a built-in DVR?

Re:TVs with HDs?

[Reverberant]

They're making TV's with embedded HDs? I hadn't heard about this. Is this like a built-in DVR?

First I've heard of this as well. I've been looking for a way to DVR without having to deal with a living room PC or a subscription service like TIVO - something like the SanDisk V-Mate but with an integrated tuner - and such a beast doesn't seem to exist. A TV with an embedded HD looks like an interesting compromise, especially if the video is encoded in a relatively open format like MPEG2 or MPG4 (but I'm not counting on it).

Re:TVs with HDs?

[wile_e_wonka]

Yeah, perhaps these things have "failed to take-off in the US" because we don't know they exist. I think there are plenty of people out there without TiVos considering purchasing a DVR, who would consider buying a TV with an integrated DVR--but only if they know they exist. You can't blame the popularity of TiVo if there has been marketing of the alternative!

Re:TVs with HDs?

[rcastro0]

Wow. It's even here in Brazil!
I'd rather have a TiVo, though :-(

Re:TVs with HDs?

[martin_b1sh0p]

I have one (I live in the U.S.) Mine is from LG (see: http://us.lge.com/dvr/). It is very convenient, but leaves a lot to be desired coming from a Tivo user.

Pros:
* Built in, no extra box laying around
* Records HD (over the air NTSC and cable QAM)
* Has a T.V. guide built in

Cons:
* Built in, what am I going to do when the HD goes south, hopefully it's easy to slap in a new one
* It's NO way near as smart as Tivo (i.e. season pass and extra features)
* Doesn't have networking, so I can't download the shows like I do with my Tivo
* Sometimes it just decides not to record a show

The last bullet is why I didn't cancel Tivo, I just moved it to the bedroom as the backup recorder. It won't be in HD but at least I still get to see the show.

Re:TVs with HDs?

[flanksteak]

Did you get it at a local store or online? Did you know that they existed before you saw it available, or did you stumble across it while browsing?

Re:TVs with HDs?

[martin_b1sh0p]

I'll spare you all the details, but basically, I did not know it existed, I found it online while browsing and then proceeded to purchase it at the nearest brick and mortar store that carried it.

Re:TVs with HDs?

[demon]

I would assume that if it's got an ATSC tuner, it just captures the MPEG-2 bitstream and writes it onto the disk; that's how most modern DVRs do it, since encoding ASICs aren't too cheap, and in the electronics market a $10 chip can make or break profit margins.

alternate universe

[Anonymous Coward]

The devices, which have seen heavy support in Europe and Asia, fall flat in the United States. The biggest reason is the penetration of Cable television. With cable, the same show can appear on a channel several times. In Europe and Japan, viewers need to grab copies of shows when they can, as it could be some time before the episode is broadcast again.

Clearly, I'm living in an alternate universe Europe, where we get constant repeats.

Re:alternate universe

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly, I'm living in an alternate universe Europe, where we get constant repeats.

Or the author is American and doesn't really know anything about the "outside" world, so instead he makes wildass assumptions about what it's really like. Nah, that couldn't be it. Nobody's *that* stupid...

Re:alternate universe

[MSTCrow5429]

I is an are American. There be outside world?

At least the US isn't willfully self-destructing like Europe...yet...

Re:alternate universe

[msuarezalvarez]

At least the US isn't willfully self-destructing like Europe...yet...

I'd say, rather, that the difference is the following: while Europe may be possibly self-destructing, the US is self-destructing and dragging everyone along in its path towards destruction.

Re:alternate universe

[MSTCrow5429]

I didn't realize the US was somehow responsible for Europeans failing to reproduce, and voluntarily inundating themselves with those hostile to both the indigenous peoples, and their culture. Perhaps your mindset is telling of the self-emasculation that leads to such problems?

Re:alternate universe

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh, no! I might have to be around people who don't look or act or think like me!"

Re:alternate universe

[rrkap]

I think the problem is more like "Oh no! I might have to be around people who don't look or act or think like me and who have a tendency to riot over cartoons and misnamed teddy bears."

Re:alternate universe

[nuzak]

> At least the US isn't willfully self-destructing like Europe...yet...

You seen our national debt? Makes Reagan look like Ross Perot.

Re:alternate universe

[Anonymous Coward]

And which people would that be? You realize we are talking about Europe here right? Not 'rest of world' or something like that. Somehow I think that organized demonstrations by militant Islamic movements will not have much presence in the EU for quite some time.

The people you talk about have as much to do with Muslims in Europe as you have with people who cheered at Nazi demonstrations in Nazi Germany.

(I'm not saying there are no problems, but what you mention really isn't one in Europe)

Re:alternate universe

[msuarezalvarez]

I didn't realize the US was somehow responsible for Europeans failing to reproduce, and voluntarily inundating themselves with those hostile to both the indigenous peoples, and their culture. Perhaps your mindset is telling of the self-emasculation that leads to such problems?

The US has shown itself to be amply capable of finding several other ways of self-destructing in a contagious way.

Re:alternate universe

[MSTCrow5429]

Well, yes, ok, we're insolvent and bankrupt, but we're still reproducing, and demographics are destiny. Solution: end the Federal Reserve. Likely "solution" attempted: more inflation and empirically failed "stimulus" packages.

Re:alternate universe

[nuzak]

> Well, yes, ok, we're insolvent and bankrupt, but we're still reproducing, and demographics are destiny.

You better start learning Farsi then. Just saying...

PVR DVDR

[Chris Burke]

Maybe just once we Americans actually made the right decision passing on a technology that is popular elsewhere in order to embrace a superior one?

Not that having a DVDR as part of your PVR wouldn't be cool so you could take the disc to a friend's house for example, but really with a big HD in your tivo/freevo/mythtv/time warner POS, there just isn't that much need.

uh oh

[nomadic]

Americans do something differently than Europeans? Cue the European slashdotters who will find some way to paint this as a moral and intellectual failing on the part of Americans.

Re:uh oh

[maxwell demon]

Americans do something differently than Europeans? Cue the European slashdotters who will find some way to paint this as a moral and intellectual failing on the part of Americans. Sure. You Americans are obviously immoral because you don't pay your share for the recorded content by buying blank media with some money going to the media cartels.

SCNR

Re:uh oh

[Anonymous Coward]

Va te faire enculer, Américain dégoûtant!

Re:uh oh

[QuickFox]

Cue the European slashdotters who will find some way to paint this as a moral and intellectual failing on the part of Americans. At least it cued you...

Isn't that reasoning contradictory?

[joeflies]

1) TV shows are broadcasted frequently in the US, so no need for DVD recording devices

2) Tivo is a recording device that is popular in the US

It seems to me that the "broadcasted frequently" isn't a valid reason for why DVD recording devices aren't popular, because there are recording devices that are popular.

Re:Isn't that reasoning contradictory?

[jayhawk88]

Not really.

1. TV shows ARE rebroadcast frequently (heck you can see new Law and Orders on USA like the week after a new run) so it is true that this has the effect of many people not really desiring/using recording devices in general.

2. For those people that do desire a recording device, Tivo and other DVR's has already filled the niche to a large extent.

Re:Isn't that reasoning contradictory?

[immcintosh]

I think they serve different purposes really. DVD burners give you a permanent copy, allowing you to watch the show repeatedly, show it to friends, take it with you, etc... Tivo, at least from the people I talk to who have such a thing (I don't watch TV), seems to be primarily used to time shift programming--you can save it up and then watch it at times that are convenient for you rather than the networks. Most people I know who use Tivo delete almost everything after they get around to watching it. For this specific purpose, I think it's fair to say that Tivo is absolutely superior.

Re:Isn't that reasoning contradictory?

[DragonWriter]

It seems to me that the "broadcasted frequently" isn't a valid reason for why DVD recording devices aren't popular,

Yes, it is.

because there are recording devices that are popular.

And that's another reason.

That there is both less reason to need recording devices, and that another recording device has taken the lions share of the demand that does exist in the US for such devices are both valid, non-contradictory, explanations for the lack of popularity of a particular recording device in the US.

If there was more demand, a second-tier device could still be successful. If the alternative hadn't been entrenched as early, the DVD-R might not be second-tier in the US. Absent either of those factors, DVD-Rs would be more popular, so both together help to explain why the DVD-R is not particularly popular.

Re:Isn't that reasoning contradictory?

[immcintosh]

As an addendum to my previous thought, perhaps this says something about the disposability of American television programming. It's just not worth the plastic to burn it on :P

Re:Isn't that reasoning contradictory?

[Tim Browse]

Not so much:

DVD recorder = archiving device

HD recorder (Tivo) = timeshifting device (that can be used for archiving to tape/DVD if desired)

Re:Isn't that reasoning contradictory?

[silas_moeckel]

I can burn the recordings off my tivo and since they have 2TB of space each I very rarely delete. I have most of my season passes set to keep the latests 5 recordings and auto purge anything older. Movies generally stick around forever unless it needs space. I will say the default tivo hd sizes are pitiful since my upgrade drives cost nearly as much as the HD tivo's they went into it seems to be a cost issue.

Re:Isn't that reasoning contradictory?

[mgblst]

Not really. Shows are often repeated, so there is less of a reason to record it live, and less people want to. Those people that still want to, have an alternative that is superior in some ways.

Would the last person who watches TV...

[Anonymous Coward]

please remember to turn off the tube? Thank you.

TVs with HDs

[Anonymous Coward]

"TiVo is also one of the reasons selling TVs with embedded hard drives in the States remains a challenge."

Why? Because people really like paying monthly fees for something that was formerly free? Seriously, when and how did we cross the line that the service fee became acceptable? Pure laziness or stupidity?

Re:TVs with HDs

[jedidiah]

Superiority.

For someone that doesn't want to build their own device, a Tivo makes remarkably more sense. It's remarkably better than just about all of the alternatives that the dont-want-to-build-it-myself crowd would be subjected to.

TVs with hard drives

[Grishnakh]

This is just a stupid idea, just like the old TVs combined with VCRs which became obsolete when DVDs came out. It's much better to just buy a standalone TV/monitor, and separate DVD player, TiVo, etc. and connect them together. Otherwise you get a mediocre device which does many things poorly, at a high price.

Re:TVs with hard drives

[Anonymous Coward]

I go one better. Why buy a monitor with a tv imbedded in it? Why not just buy a high-quality TV card and stick it in a great PC? Output to the monitor and you've got it made. Whenever ANTYTHING goes obselete you just upgrade.

And note: I did NOT say a MacTV (blech!)

Re:TVs with hard drives

[Grishnakh]

Yeah, I agree; I'd rather have a tuner card in a SFF PC running MythTV. But for now, most people expect to get a HDTV tuner in their new HDTV, not just a bare monitor, so that's the way they're sold. Luckily, while people accept that, they haven't grown to accept building DVD players and hard drives into TVs in the same way.

Re:TVs with hard drives

[prelelat]

Also if one device fails it kind of sucks. The TV fails, the PVR/VCR is useless. If the PVR/VCR fails then you still have to buy a stand alone one and explain to people coming over why you have features on your tv that you can't use. PVR might be harder to hide but a DVD-R/VCR leaves a hole on your TV that nothing can fill :(

I agree even if you were able to get two that did the job great I would not go for it, looks stupid when you upgrade or one fails.

Re:TVs with hard drives

[Seakip18]

I have disagree. Having set up and used one(I believe it was a Samsung, though this was 6 months ago) for my parents, it is a boon. The TV uses a standardized Sata-II Hard drive that is 250GB. With that, they only had to have one single remote that did it all without any extra setup. It took about 30 minutes for me to teach my dad how to work the JIT recording, programming guide etc. As for the audio and video quality, I can honestly say that it looked more than acceptable, though slight pixellation occurred (then again, it was 57"). He also loves being able to have a flat space for the TV, with nothing else sitting atop.

If CABLECard technology would take off (aka-not suck), I'd rather see the fusion of the display into something of a Home theater PC. Or, for those with a bit more cash, a centralized multiplexer with massive storage attachment, provide a dumb-terminal to network-attached displays.

Only when the medium itself, (IE-Cable or Ethernet) becomes obsolete do you need to find another device (Prolly wireless)

Re:TVs with hard drives

[91degrees]

But you do presumably expect to have a tuner inside your television. And speakers. Why those and not a hard disk? Personally I quite like having everything in a single box. PVR functionality doesn't add a lot to the price, and if it's really that bad you can still buy a standalone PVR. I hate having a huge pile of boxes and all these remote controls.

Re:TVs with hard drives

[Grishnakh]

But you do presumably expect to have a tuner inside your television. And speakers. Why those and not a hard disk?

That's mainly historical, and because those items don't usually add much to the cost. However, with the huge penetration of digital cable and digital satellite, having the tuner built-in isn't really all that useful for most Americans now.

Hard drives aren't cheap like 10W speakers. A normal one costs about $100 retail; that's a huge percentage of the cost of a TV, even a ~40" HDTV, in the highly cost-sensitive consumer electronics market. But you don't get PVR functionality by just slapping an HD in there; you have to have a whole computer, plus a lot of software. TiVo has been a pretty big success because they tied all that together in a way that people really like and is easy to use; I've heard lots of complaints about the cable companies' own PVR offerings by contrast. You really think that a built-in PVR is going to be done all that well?

If it's really that bad, you just wasted $200 (over the cost of a TV without that feature) or so on a TV with a function that you don't want, when you could have gotten a much cheaper model without that feature. Again, this isn't like cheap speakers; this is a pretty significant extra cost.

Re:TVs with hard drives

[martin_b1sh0p]

Instead of typing it all again, see my post here: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=422080&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=22085258#22086500

I have one (LG) and I list the pros / cons in that reply.

Re:TVs with hard drives

[91degrees]

You seem to think these cost a lot more than they do. The processing power needed is about the same as that required by an iPod. The hard disks need only be 160GB or so and don't need to be particularly fast. The software already exists. They use it in standalone PVRs

And while it may not be as good as a TiVo, not everyone wants a TiVo. It will be about as good as most of the existing recorders on the market, and mean that you only need one plug socket, one remote control, and considerably less spaghetti at the back of the TV. And since manufacturing and transport costs of one device are less than that for two, it costs less.

Re:TVs with hard drives

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why not just buy a high-quality TV card and stick it in a great PC?"

Why run an overly complex general-purpose computer when you can buy a more reliable embedded systems that does what you want?

The real reason....

[MarkGriz]

is we're all a bunch of stealing illegal file downloading copyright infringing pirates.

Just ask the MPAA.

Re:The real reason....

[Fieryphoenix]

Hey now, don't be an insensitive clod. Some of us are ninjas.

Re:The real reason....

[Anonymous Coward]

You may not be too far off with this one. Stand alone DVD recorders for TV may not be popular in the US, but the penetration of computers in the US household is pretty high and softwares are now at the point where it's easy to burn DVDs of TV shows. You may download the show, you may record it off the air and so on, but then it's trivial to get it onto the computer and on a DVD.

My reasons

[Dan East]

For us, initially the cost of the hardware and media was too much compared to the good old VCR.
Later, our DVR pretty much made it pointless.
Most recently, the ability to watch TV shows off the internet on-demand, or to obtain them via BitTorrent, has almost supplanted the DVR completely.

Dan East

Where to plug it in?

[dazedNconfuzed]

In considering getting an HDTV, my wife casually asked about recording shows. Aghast, I had to admit I wasn't sure how that could be done! In the HDMI world - as the cartels intended - there just is no place to plug in a recorder, and DVRs don't come with disc writers. Yeah, I could hack up something involving a PC, HD tuner card, ill-supported software, bittorrent, etc. but it just would never meet the "insert blank, choose channel, hit 'Record'" it-just-works paradigm.

Re:Where to plug it in?

[vux984]

In considering getting an HDTV, my wife casually asked about recording shows. Aghast, I had to admit I wasn't sure how that could be done! In the HDMI world - as the cartels intended - there just is no place to plug in a recorder, and DVRs don't come with disc writers. Yeah, I could hack up something involving a PC, HD tuner card, ill-supported software, bittorrent, etc. but it just would never meet the "insert blank, choose channel, hit 'Record'" it-just-works paradigm.

DVRs tend to be even MORE user friendsly than "insert blank, choose channel, hit record". Most people find that their is enough new content they want to watch that they literally don't have time to watch much of the old stuff anyway. So record, watch, delete works just fine. The idea of keeping copies of old shows to watch again later becomes moot if you always have 10-20 hours of new content sitting on your DVR ready to go.

The only items I take the trouble to make permanent copies of are kids movies, because those do actually get watched again. And I usually just buy them PV for $8 on DVD at the local video store.

That said, if you go the DVR route and do want to get the files off the drive there are a couple ways. Many of them have a working firewire port that you can capture from. (Although you have to 'play the show' and capture it in real time.

The other option is to remove the hard drive, mount it read only in your PC, and copy the files. Mine is a standard linux filesystem. The only issues with this is you have to open it up. (Although I've been contemplating a case mod to make the drive 'external'.) and the biggest issue, is that to remove the drive you have to power it off which means:

1) no recording while the hd is out, obviously
2) after you plug it back in it seems to take 45 minutes or so to get the TV guide data back into it, which is annoying.

Re:Where to plug it in?

[Psychotria]

Well, that makes me depressed. I work long hours and often record shows on TV (I am in Australia) to watch at my leisure. Australia will soon be changing broadcast to digital-only and I assume that at some point HDTV. If I get HDTV, then the lack of insert blank, choose channel, record is going to seriously affect me. Your comment has opened my eyes to something I had not even thought of. Sigh.

Re:Where to plug it in?

[_xeno_]

Can I ask what's wrong with something like a TiVo HD?

If all you're interested in is recording a show and watching it later, any HD DVR should work fine.

If you want to watch the shows on your laptop or something like that, with a TiVo HD you can always use TiVoToGo (which is annoyingly well hidden on their website, and doesn't make any mention of HD support - I suppose I'll have to try it later). There's even support for burning to DVD through a computer, although that requires Roxio.

(And, uh, I've been told that if you look long enough on Google, you can find ways to remove the TiVo DRM.)

I haven't really done the math, but I expect that the cost of the monthly fee would easily match the cost of blank DVD-Rs beyond a certain point.

Now it's not the most "Free software" friendly solution in the world, but it does meet the ease-of-use requirement. Use the guide, select the show, hit record, and it will record it later. To an extent it's even easier since you can skip the "insert blank" step and, if you're using season passes, even the "choose channel, hit 'Record'" steps. :)

I'm honestly curious, why wouldn't a TiVo HD (or similar HD DVR, if you can find any) meet your requirements?

Re:Where to plug it in?

[zakezuke]

In considering getting an HDTV, my wife casually asked about recording shows. You should make it clear whether you are talking off the air, cable, or dish. Near as I'm aware all recorders in the US in 2007 must include ATSC tuners, so in theory you could record as before, just DVD-video doesn't support HD. However there are units like DViCO's TiVX 5010-P HDTV Recorder which will record in 1080, but not sold in the states.

Re:Where to plug it in?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, the sweet smell of astroturf. How much is Tivo paying you?

I haven't really done the math, but I expect that the cost of the monthly fee would easily match the cost of blank DVD-Rs beyond a certain point. Obviously not. Let's do it, shall we? DVD-R cost about $0.25 a disc. (Actually, less than that, but it's a nice round number.) A DVD-R will hold 2 hours of video.

Now the average American apparently watches 4 hours of TV a day. So let's take a 31-day month, giving us 124 hours of TV per month. At $0.25 per two hours of recording, that gives us $15.50 per month to pay for DVD-Rs.

Now Tivo does their damndest to hide the cost of Tivo service, but the actual cost is $17/month, with a one-year commitment. Any other price you see on the site is a promotional price.

So you're paying $1.50/month extra, assuming you actually watch 4 hours of TV a day, every day, including weekends and holidays, and every month is 31 days, which it isn't, and that you're overpaying for DVD-Rs, and that you absolutely must record every single show you watch.

So there goes your cost argument.

As for the rest, there's the DRM that you mention, the broadcast flag, the fact that HD Tivos manage not to properly implement the CableCARD spec (just ask any cable tech), the nightmares involved with keeping an HD Tivo paired with a CableCARD, and the $800 pricetag on top of the $204/year fee.

Throw in the non-replacable hard drive and the three year average service life for an HD, and you'll be spending another $800 every three years or so, where as a DVD-R burner can last far longer and costs far less.

So there you go - why a Tivo is overpriced and generally worthless.

If you absolutely must have a DVR, just rent one from your cable/satelite provider. It costs less than the Tivo fee, has no up-front price compared to the $800 Tivo, and when it dies (because hard drives don't have an infinite life) you can just call up and they'll replace it.

Re:Where to plug it in?

[TrekkieGod]

The other option is to remove the hard drive, mount it read only in your PC, and copy the files. Mine is a standard linux filesystem.

Which HD DVR do you have that doesn't encrypt the media files on the hard drive?

Re:Where to plug it in?

[Frenchy_2001]

Actually, windows Media Center Edition is fairly simple to setup and to use.
It works with both SD and HD (although on the winXP based version, you NEED a SD feed before it can accept HD) and you have lots of 3rd party tools that can convert the videos into anything you like (divx, dvd...) during the off-time (at night for example).

For me, it passed the wife test (she just loves it) and has been favorably compared to all the cable DVR boxes our relatives have.

As a bonus, this is a full fledge PC and will play anything your PC would, but on a tv. Completely usable with just the remote for the AV stuff, browsing, torrent and streaming available from my LAN.

Re:Where to plug it in?

[Zanthrox]

Sounds like what you're looking for would be a D-VHS recorder. It'll record 5c encrypted shows directly from your cable box via firewire in full HD. The format never really took off, but it's basically the only removable media HD solution I'm aware of that works as you describe.

Now...if someone would just come out with that as a BluRay recorder I'd be happy. Bonus points if it'll transcode MPEG2 to MPEG4 and burn to DVD. A cablecard based HD recorder would be terrific, but a firewire unit that'd record from the cable box would be just dandy too...

Re:Where to plug it in?

[demon]

Assuming your cable box has an IEEE-1394 port; even though there's an FCC mandate, cable companies still aren't reliable about including such advanced technology in their cable boxes.

Re:Where to plug it in?

[demon]

I have the TiVo Series3; I in fact download HD programming from it for assorted purposes (for bringing elsewhere for watching on my laptop, or for watching while in transit to/from NYC). Also, programs like pyTiVo have been great for watching torrented shows - even HD torrents (which can be had in 720p!) - so the shows that I can't get via local sources in HD (since our local NBC affiliate is in the dark ages) can still be watched *the right way*...

Re:Where to plug it in?

[MtViewGuy]

Fortunately, if you're a Comcast subscriber the new Tru2way standard will allow you to plug in a DVD recorder unit into a digital cable set-top box and record a show directly onto the disk. Expect products based on Tru2way to arrive the second half of 2008.

From the Intro....

[StressGuy]

"...With cable, the same show can appear on a channel several times...."

Yes, let's explore that shall we? I've got over 100 channels and what do I get to pick from!?

COMEDY CENTRAL: 4 hour block of South Park

BRAVO: 4 hour block of Project Runway

A&E: 4 hour block of CSI

CARTOON NETWORK: SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS....SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANT....SPONGE...BOBBBBBB...SQUARE PAAAAANTS!!!!!

Re:From the Intro....

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't show Spongebob Squarepants on Cartoon Network.

Re:From the Intro....

[Anonymous Coward]

What alternate universe are you watching TV in? South Park is only aired like once or twice a day, and it's Nickelodeon that shows Spongebob.

Re:From the Intro....

[Anonymous Coward]

That's nothing, thanks to On Demand it's "I'm the map, I'm the map, I'm the map, I'm the map, I'm the map, I'M THE MAP!" 24 hours a day at hour house.

Re:From the Intro....

[StressGuy]

Well, they play the crap out of south park and night.

perhaps SpongeBob is nicklodeon.

Point taken though, you probably watch a lot more cartoons that I do.

Re:From the Intro....

[tarrantm]

Umm Spongebob is on Nick. Cartoon Network is Cartoon Cartoon, KND, My Gym Partner, Ed Edd Eddy, Fosters..
And Nick has been absolutely horrible with the current season of Avatar. I have my DVR set to record all new eps and have gotten a total of 2 episodes the entire season due to no consistent time or incorrect episode airing. Worst channel evar.

Re:From the Intro....

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Spongebob Squarepants is on the Nickelodeon network, not the Cartoon Network.

Re:From the Intro....

[maxwell demon]

Don't you have VPS in the U.S.?

Better to build, not buy

[Bullfish]

When I compared the cost of a DVR to adding a TV card to my my old retired socket A PC, it was cheaper to just add the card. If you have an older machine, you get a better device with more functionality for not much cash. I can record and erase, or burn as I see fit.

Good use for all those machines that are sitting in closets.

Because HDD recorders are better

[Sycraft-fu]

DVD seems like a large medium when you are storing something like old documents, but it really isn't when you are talking video. I mean think: A DVD only holds a few hours of video when you get one for a movie. Even if you are willing to lower the quality, you aren't going to get much more than 6 hours out of a DVD, storing in DVD Video format.

Well thats crap, frankly. That equals lots of switching of discs and having to keep a large library. Better to just keep everything on a hard disk. That way when I want a show, it is right there. You can store a whole lot more, since they are larger, and it is all instant access and rewritable.

Finally, you get better quality with digital cable. I've never seen a DVD recorder that does TV tuning as well. That means the signal needs to be decompressed, sent to the recorder, then recompressed. However with a DVR it is a TV tuner and HD recorder. That means it just tunes in the cable signal, and stores the compressed information on the disk, no recompress.

It is just a technology that isn't that useful, given what else is out there.

Re:Because HDD recorders are better

[SargentDU]

So you are saying you can't get off your butt to change DVDs after watching 6 hours of video? You poor SOB.

Re:Because HDD recorders are better

[Jugalator]

Totally agreed, and as for the "European successs" talk in the article, I haven't seen many DVD recorders compared to HDD ones lately over here anyway. *shrug*

Re:Because HDD recorders are better

[Anonymous Coward]

HDD Recorders are better - but name ONE that you can actually buy, besides TIVO.

DVD recorders are dead because it is IMPOSSIBLE to interface them to a cable box (or satellite box).

Tivo?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't say it is TiVo that is displacing set top DVD recorders. It is the DVRs provided by DirecTV, and Cable TimeWarner around here (Scientific Atlanta hardware). Almost everyone I know has one or the other. I dont personally know anyone with a TiVo.

The REAL reason...

[xannash]

Why go out and spend precious money on a DVD recorder when you can find anything, and I mean anything online and through P2P file sharing. With the cost of a DVD-RW for a PC these days it's really more cost efficient to buy a DVD-RW and download whatever show commercial movie, or porn and then burn it to DVD using your precious PC tools. So what's the point in buying a DVD recorder.

DVD Recorders? To record shows?

[eepok]

As an American who is pretty knowledgeable about tech, I'm pretty surprised I hadn't heard about these myself. They're not marketed much if at all in the States according to the article. ... that may have a bit to do with slow/no adoption.

Re:DVD Recorders? To record shows?

[bigbigbison]

Ever look at a Best Buy circular? They list one or two on sale pretty much every week. They have them at mostly every store that sells dvd players including Wal-Mart.

Re:DVD Recorders? To record shows?

[Aladrin]

My mother (definitely not a techie) asked me about buying a DVD Recorder a couple years ago. I talked her out of it.

I don't know about everywhere else, but they were in the sale ads a lot here in Central Florida. Haven't seen them for over a year now... Probably because nobody would buy them no matter the price.

I think the main problems were fear of the unknown and confusion about media. +'s and -'s, CDs and DVDs, speeds... It was all too much for non-techies to handle.

For the record, I convinced her not to buy with the 'What would you tape?' approach, and then the 'you can't even program your VCR' approach. There's nothing on TV worth watching twice, and she'd mess up the scheduling as often as not if she tried to tape it while she was at work or asleep.

How to make it so that I would buy a DVD recorder

[jo42]

1) Support HD recording off of cable and/or satellite onto hard disk* and/or DVDs.
2) Sell it (for below $300).
3) Profit!!!!

* Either I get to install my own internal hard drive or hook up an external USB drive.

The Real Reason

[robertjw]

I have to play it off in realtime and I can't watch anything else while I'm doing it, Never had a DVD recorder, but if this is the only way they work, I can't watch anything else, and my Tivo might potentially miss one of the shows it's set to record? No wonder they didn't take off here, who has time for that.

Re:The Real Reason

[Beardo the Bearded]

Not at all.

I bought a Daytek HDD recorder from Costco. I plug in cable and power and attach it to my TV. I then set up the recording sequence just like a VCR. It records the shows I want it to. I've noted one exception with a broadcast flag (Aqua Teen Hunger Force, wtf?), but other than that it works almost perfectly. I've currently got about 65 hours recorded that I've got to watch.

It also plays DivX or VixD disks. I got the Torchwood finale off Limewire (stupid CBC shifted it, and only announced it ONCE during the previous show, which we watched off "tape".) and it played with no problems.

I can watch a recorded show or a DVD while it's recording.

I can burn disks off the shows recorded onto the HDD.

I have no idea what or where the original poster bought. Apparently it's crap.

Re:The Real Reason

[Original Replica]

Aqua Teen Hunger Force, wtf?

Dude, ATHF is a well know terrorist organization. It is unamerican of you to support them through your viewership. Every time you watch that show it is an insult to the hard working patriots in the Department of Homeland Security.


good job.

Re:The Real Reason

[Anonymous Coward]

...(stupid CBC shifted it, and ....

Dude, he's in Canada, and, as we all know, they're beaver smoking communists up there! :)

don't they mean dvr?

[Anonymous Coward]

uh last i checked dvd recorder sales were great...all new PCs come with them or have the option for one. i think they mean dvr...

Re:don't they mean dvr?

[maxwell demon]

No, PCs have DVD writers. DVD recorders are the analog to VCRs, but using writable DVD media instead of tapes.
Of course, if your PC has both a DVD writer and a TV tuner card, you'll be able to make a DVD recorder from it.

One simple reason

[NotFamous]

I have DirectTV. I have a DVD-Writer I used to use like a VCR. I would set it to record my favorite shows. I can no longer use my DVD-Writer that way, since the built-in tuner cannot tune DirectTV shows. Thus it now can only be used to record what is on the channel I am watching (hit the record button). I never hear this issue discussed. I never thought about it when i switched to DirectTV. Oops! I guess I will have to rent my DVR from DirectTV for 5.95 a month. Talk about vendor lock-in!

Re:One simple reason

[DaedylusSL]

I have to agree completely with this. This is exactly why I haven't switched from old-fashioned cable to any kind of dish. I've been using DVD recorders for about 2-3 years now. There's a cable box in the living room, but not in the bedroom (which is where I watch most TV). I have a recorder in both rooms. In the living room I have to program both the cable box and the recorder to get a show that I want. In the bedroom, the cable comes right into the recorder. I can just program the channel and time I want and the show is recorded on an 80GB hard drive. If it's a show I want to keep, I take the commercials out and burn it to a disk. Otherwise I just delete it from the hard drive when I'm done. I've loved this setup because I never have to worry about bending my schedule to match what's on TV. I just watch what I want in the middle of the night, when nothing else is on anyway. The only draw-back is that the bedroom DVD recorder doesn't get all the channels (nothing over 100) and I can't upgrade to a better television package. But I figure I don't need much more than I have right now anyway (300 channels and nothing's on, right?) so I'm going to keep my DVD recorders for as long as they will work with what Comcast delivers.

Whats the point?

[HappyDrgn]

I bought my parents a DVD recorder for Christmas only to find out later they could not copy their legally purchased VHS collection to DVD due to some macrovision crap. So now after having burned a few old home videos this recorder will probably sit on the self collecting dust. What's the point of having a DVD recorder if you can't record content you legally own? Word travels fast and at least a other dozen older folks I know now won't be getting a DVD recorder. The hardware vendors really screw themselves with this lock in ware.

Re:Whats the point?

[tigerhawkvok]

Is there a technical reason they can't do this? Because otherwise, screw the lock-in-vendors. They have no way to see if you made the copy!

I suppose they might have it so write-protected tapes can't be copied -- but a peice of tape over the hole does the trick.

It doesn't really change the fact that it is mostly a useless technology, though -- to copy stuff to DVD, it is almost more efficient to do it through a computer and hold on to a digital copy along the way. DVRs with hard drives can just store so much more information, in a single place, that they are the flat-out superior option.

Re:Whats the point?

[Rick Richardson]

Sima copymaster....

Re:Whats the point?

[CodeBuster]

I bought my parents a DVD recorder for Christmas only to find out later they could not copy their legally purchased VHS collection to DVD due to some macrovision crap. Ah, that is the first introduction that most average consumers have to DRM and copy protection. They think that techies of the sort who hang around on Slashdot bemoaning the evils of DRM are just a bunch of nerds blowing hot air about something which doesn't matter. They are stunned when they find out that they cannot copy their VHS tapes to DVD (or their DVDs to VHS tape) without either a band pass filtering device (which is way too black market for most people) or special software which is also "questionable". The usual scenario is that a Disney DVD or VHS tape needs to be copied (so their kids can destroy the copy while the parents preserve the original), but they are surprised at the poor quality of their copy asking their technology literate friends: why are there all these dark lines and messed up colors on my copy? The problem is compounded by the fact that Disney purposefully and deftly manipulates the recorded content market for their films, releasing and re-releasing films only every five or ten years or so, in order to heighten demand and charge higher prices. The desire to make copies because kids destroy DVDs and VHS tapes is a natural response by parents who hit upon the idea to hook the output of their DVD player into the input of their VCR and press record only to be surprised by the results.

Re:Whats the point?

[HappyDrgn]

Is there a technical reason they can't do this?

Short answer, yes. When you press the record button as you normally do to record normal content, such as TV shows or home videos, you get an error on the dvd recorder itself letting you know that it's copy protected and can not be copied to DVD. I had not heard of this, so naturally the first thing we tried doing was putting tape over the "write block" hole on the VHS tape. This however gave the same results. I did a little browsing and found something about this macrovision company that produces copy protection. Apparently this copy protection is written to the VHS tape itself and through an "old boys club" back door deal most of the hardware manufactures for VHS and DVD recorders look for, and honor, this copy protection. There are ways around this however, which include hooking up a piece of hardware between the player and recorder, but as another poster notes the copies can still have lines and other discoloration in them due to these copy restrictions.

it is almost more efficient to do it through a computer

Good point. If this where for me, had I even owned any VHS, this would be the route I'd take. My parents are in their 50's however, and not very technically included. My dad may use the computer to play a flight sim and my mom for email... beyond this their technical skills are very limited. Naturally I went for a solution that would be more clear cut for them, something like say the VHS recorder they have been familiar with for the past few decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrovision

Re:Whats the point?

[zakezuke]

I bought my parents a DVD recorder for Christmas only to find out later they could not copy their legally purchased VHS collection to DVD due to some macrovision crap. Macrovision proection has been around for a good long while, at least a decade. It was first put into place so you couldn't rent a tape and copy it. This was back in the mid 80s when prerecorded tapes cost hundreds of dollars. You can't tweak with the vertical hold anymore, but if you could you would see something blinking black&white on the vertical interval bar. From my understanding the white is too white, the recorder adjusts and results in an over saturated and dim image. Note, this really wasn't an issue on older decks, modern ones pretty much looked for the this encoding and blocked your ability to record. Some TVs reacted badly to macrovision, and people who used vcrs with digital tuners as switch boxes found some units wouldn't let you. Smarter units would only kick in the distortion when you hit record.

But macrovision circumvention has been around for some time, and i'm sure there are DVRs with the ability to disable macrovision protection.

Various reasons

[Anonymous Coward]

Repeats are definitely one reason. Many shows, especially on cable, are repeated several times that week, if not that day. Plus, series DVDs are extremely popular and usually quickly available after the season finale. I think a lot of viewers are content to watch what they can, then catch up with the DVDs later on.

Changing tastes are another. There aren't as many prime time soaps (or soapish-sitcom like Friends) as there were a decade or two ago on American TV (compare that to European, Asian, South American TV where soaps seem very popular.) The list of "must see" shows is less and less, or at least shows where you feel like you simply have to watch every episode the night it airs.

Finally--and I think most importantly-- there are still a hell of a lot of VCRs in use, particularly by the "Baby Boomers". I think those who are inclined to record shows but for whatever reason don't go for the TiVo are content with the familiartiy (and limitations) of VHS.

Why Americans Don't...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why Americans Don't...

1. Because they are sheep, throwing $$$ into the dark anus of directx gaming

Bigger problem

[Moryath]

In the US, consumers were stuck with substandard, feature-stripped DVD recorders.

-Media problems
Nothing would work with the next generation of media (I was given as a "gift" a co-worker's old one that takes 1X and nothing but 1X... the "replacement" took nothing but 4X, wouldn't even work with the legacy 1X disks she had left over). Companies like Philips were shit-poor about issuing firmware updates to use current media, instead trying to forced-obsolete their products and force people to shell out $700-800 to replace a 1-2 year old burner.

-Lack of hard drives and smart burning
Not till the 4th generation did they include a hard drive to remove commercials before the data was burned, meaning if you record 2 hours of show you just recorded 40 minutes of wasted space. Trying to archive was a disaster with that going on.

-Lack of ability to access cable
In order to screw people further, cable companies started altering the phase of their signal to work with only proprietary set-top boxes (my ATi All-In-Wonder got screwed by this too, thank you Time Warner and Comcrap for making my purchase worthless). Want a DVR or recording? Better get their one that's built to be able to handle the phase-shifted signals... and is "rented" to you. Digital cable's even worse, because few if any DVD recorders recognize it, making you try to do a set-top box pass-through (same issue if you have satellite) to set the channel or else pray it has codes for its remote-interceptor dongle to do the channel changing work.

Chances of getting a DVD burner unit cable of receiving component video or HD-quality? GOOD LUCK. The market's now been abandoned. If you want to do it, you build your own MythTV box or something.

Re:Bigger problem

[CastrTroy]

I remember with Linux (XAW-TV?) you used to be able to change the phase of the channel. Each channel was programmed at some certain frequency, but you could just alter it to whatever you want. I think that most TV cards can tune to whichever frequency you want it (within some range), so you may not be completely out of luck. Actually now that I think about it, the IVTV drivers for my hauppauge let me set stations by frequency too.

Re:Bigger problem

[Ash Vince]

I think there is another reason why DVD burners are more popular in Europe which nobody seems to have mentioned yet:

DVD's cost more here.

If you in the states want to watch a film that is not likely to be broadcast on TV due to it niche market you can just buy it on DVD for $10 or so. Over here that same DVD would be about £10. Now since the dollar to pound exchange rate is currently about $2 = £1 we effectively pay close to double the price for prerecorded DVDs. That is a real incentive to record any film you might want to watch in future and then keep the disk.

A DVR is all very well but however big the disk in it it will eventually be full and you have to start deleting stuff to make room. At that point you may only be able to watch it again in a few years by paying a fair old wodge of cash.

The other issue is that this is probably a lot less appealing to people in the states due to the adverts every 10 mins. Who wants to have a permanent copy of your favourite film that has so many interruptions. Over here in Europe (well in Britain anyway) we have TV channels with no advert brakes. We also have less advert brakes in general even on the channels that do show advertising. This makes the idea of keeping a permanent copy of something you tape a lot more appealing.

With all this in mind though, I would rather live in the US and simply pay less to buy prerecorded DVDs. Then I would not mind using a DVR as a temporary storage medium for stuff I had not got around to watching yet and deleting it when I did.

Re:Bigger problem

[poetmatt]

Umm, I don't know about that. I just got back from being in Israel for 2 weeks and although its not Europe, DVD prices were about the same as the US (price fixing is suspect though). I saw new movies for about 20$ US (80 NIS) if bought from legitimate stores and not bootlegged.

Also, isn't MythTV and stuff like that, using your personal PC as a HTPC supposed to work too?

Re:Bigger problem

[init100]

A DVR is all very well but however big the disk in it it will eventually be full and you have to start deleting stuff to make room.

That's why I use my desktop computer as a DVR. Plenty of room, and if I need more, I can just buy another 500 GB hard drive for $100.

The other issue is that this is probably a lot less appealing to people in the states due to the adverts every 10 mins. Who wants to have a permanent copy of your favourite film that has so many interruptions.

I use a frame-accurate MPEG2 editor to strip out the commercials. This makes recorded video much more enjoyable, as even if the source originally had commercials I don't see them any longer. And I don't have to waste space storing commercials that I don't want to watch.

Re:Bigger problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're right on the money with the ads.

In Europe, we have longer ad breaks every hour or so (for a movie; one break during a serie), if at all. In the states it's more like every 10-15 minutes. Fiddling with the remote to not record the ad break is only fine if you do it a couple of time and you got the time to do it.

So americans buy DVRs, which help a lot with the ads and don't have you keep a library of DVDs (and moan when the HD's full), while europeans buy DVD recorders (and moan about having to skip the ads).

Re:Bigger problem

[OrtegaPeru]

New DVDs in the US are 20 dollars or more. The older ones are coming down in price though presumably because of companies getting ready to make the move to HD

Re:Bigger problem

[badasscat]

Umm, I don't know about that. I just got back from being in Israel for 2 weeks and although its not Europe, DVD prices were about the same as the US (price fixing is suspect though). I saw new movies for about 20$ US (80 NIS) if bought from legitimate stores and not bootlegged.

In Japan, one of the territories mentioned in the original post, DVD's are usually around $50 and *up*. So yes, this is a major consideration there.

People in Japan can take their HDD/DVD recorder, record a high-def broadcast of a Hollywood film onto their hard drives, then re-record that onto DVD. In the process, while they obviously won't get an HD-DVD out of it, they'll usually get a DVD that's at least as good in quality as the "official" release. No, it won't have official artwork or a jewel case or anything, but I imagine most people would consider the cost tradeoff worth it.

I guess the moral of the story is DVD recorders are just more *necessary* in certain territories than they are in the US. Most DVD's these days in the US are $10 or less. Even Blu-Ray discs list at $25 and can be found almost everywhere for less than that. And when you add in the free or very cheap DVR's given out by the cable companies, we just really have very little need for DVD recorders here.

Oh, one other thing - the PC is bigger in the US than it is in Japan. If people *really* want to record DVD's in the US, they'll often just do it on PC. That's less common in Japan, where a hell of a lot of people have a cell phone as their only computer, or at most a mini-laptop without an optical drive. (I'm not saying real computers with DVD recorders don't exist, just that there are fewer of them in use than here.)

Re:Bigger problem

[poetmatt]

interesting and agreed. Although I thought that most of the asian technology culture especially japan would be more computer oriented

Re:Bigger problem

[Ash Vince]

They also have shit loads less space than you lot in the US. That means alot more people share accomodation and only have one small room to call their own.

Re:Bigger problem

[Anonymous Coward]

In order to screw people further, cable companies started altering the phase of their signal to work with only proprietary set-top boxes (my ATi All-In-Wonder got screwed by this too, thank you Time Warner and Comcrap for making my purchase worthless). You have any proof of this. I know a few people (at least 20 with Comcast, me included, at least 20 with TW, and another 20 with Insight) all of whom have no phase-shifted signal issues with regular cable. I mean, they all have standard televisions with no fancy equipment attached directly to the cable line. I would also like to think any company doing this would get slapped around a bit by the regulating agencies.

Digital cable's even worse, because few if any DVD recorders recognize it, making you try to do a set-top box pass-through (same issue if you have satellite) to set the channel or else pray it has codes for its remote-interceptor dongle to do the channel changing work. Well, this is a bit more cloudy. I just checked Crutchfield and 6 of 9 recorders had QAM tuners. Now, whether or not your provider unencrypts their non-premium signals is up to them. I have heard people online have varying results with QAM tuners on their providers. Of course, this is an issue I have looked into since I want to make a MythTV box.

Re:Bigger problem

[jbeaupre]

Just had to tease you. In the UK, you have no advert breaks, whereas we have no advert brakes.

Re:Bigger problem

[Fastolfe]

The other issue is that this is probably a lot less appealing to people in the states due to the adverts every 10 mins. Who wants to have a permanent copy of your favourite film that has so many interruptions. Over here in Europe (well in Britain anyway) we have TV channels with no advert brakes.

This is true for broadcast programming and only some cable programming. Most cable channels that would carry movies are premium channels that have no advertising, and many cable channels have no advertising or only promotional advertising for other programs on that channel. The bulk are full of ads, however, as you note.

It's just too hard

[smudge]

I have a DVD recorder. To record something I have to

• read the manual.
  
• be sure I have the right media: DVD+ DVD- is that R or RW or ???
  
• do some final step (can't remember what it's called) that really really writes to the disk.
  

And even then I can't be sure it would work on someone else's DVD player.

The ol' VCR was easy: put in tape, press record.

There hasn't been anything on tv lately that was really worth the effort.

Re:It's just too hard

[maxwell demon]

There hasn't been anything on tv lately that was really worth the effort.

Well, maybe that's the real difference why DVD recorders are more popular in Europe ... I certainly find things which are worth recording.

Re:It's just too hard

[Anonymous Coward]

"do some final step (can't remember what it's called)"

Finalization.

Re:It's just too hard

[zippthorne]

Really? You mind sending some of that over, then? All that makes it over here are crappy versions of American shows, and crappy versions of european shows which are copied by American studios with better film and sets.

For instance, the fact that the American version of "The office" is less funny than the original in no way implies that the british version is any good. And don't get me started on Dr. Who and the slate of comedies that seep over on PBS starring ex pythons or taking place in bawdy department stores.

Now, I think I can understand Borat: You guys were looking to create a boor detector, weren't you.

Re:It's just too hard

[jawtheshark]

I can only talk for myself, but I tend to record documentaries. Mainly because, when it becomes late and the documentary isn't finished but I absolutely have to go to bed (getting up early isn't easy for a night-owl like me), I just put in a DVD and hit record. Of course, I don't keep this stuff. It's just for timeshifting.

Arte, for example, has "theme-nights" where one particular theme is used for the whole evening. Could be, for example, about Charlie Chaplin. You get to see "Modern Times" and "The Dictator" and those movies are them complemented with documentaries setting them in their time. Just an example. I saw another one completely dedicated to space probes like Voyager, including "How to Communicate with Aliens, should we find them" (Carl Sagan's ideas, etc...)

So, I do find stuff worth watching. If I had BBC, I'm pretty sure I'd watch their documentaries. However, I have Google Video for that now ;-)

DRM again...

[evilviper]

Why in the world would anyone get a crippled stand-alone DVD recorder? You have to put up with macrovision, and digital tokens preventing recording from DVDs or VHS tapes, and even sometimes digital cable/satellite tuners.

You have to record in real-time, at low quality, and that's if you or an installer can even figure out how to get the wiring right... Most satellite installers can't figure out how to keep a single VCR in the loop, let alone VCR+DVD+DVDR+DVR.

Meanwhile, if you put a TV tuner and DVD-Burner in your computer, you can (trivially) edit out commercials, decide after the fact whether or not it's worth wasting a disc on the show... You can make backup DVD copies at 16X. You can back-up data from your computer. You can record high-def video to disc. etc., etc.

The story here is that Americans aren't stupid enough to buy DRM crippled, expensive, and inherently limited, stand-alone DVD recorders.

Re:DRM again...

[moderatorrater]

You just called Americans smarter than Europeans and got marked +5 Insightful. Are you God?

Re:DRM again...

[Bender Unit 22]

>Why in the world would anyone get a crippled stand-alone DVD recorder?
Because it was all you could get for a very long time.

The first usable solution I could get my hands on, was a Microsoft Media Center machine since they were the first to provide a solution with tv guides. (2005 with rollup package 2, iirc).
Of course there were MythTV and others what worked badly at the time because you had to tinker for days with scripts to get some sort of automated tv guide by pulling it from a local tv stations website.

The last year or two different cable providers has really begun do get into the tivo like services

Re:DRM again...

[Frenchy_2001]

The real story is that TV in the rest of the world can be considered viewable without heavy editing.
I'm from Europe and I *HATE* any non premium channel in the US. Any movie will be cut by advertisement every 5 minutes (especially at the end of the movie). A 1h show is actually a 43minutes torrent, which means that every night, you have 17+ minutes of commercial during an episode.

This is the reason Tivo and DVR caught faster in the US than in the rest of the world, because they make the TV watchable again. This is a patch for a broken system.

After that, I agree that the DVR is a much better device than a DVD-recorder, but it does have some trade-offs, mostly that you cannot move a show and share it with your neighbors/friends. You cannot ask someone else to record a show for you, or you will have to watch it in their house. Quite inconvenient, but negligeable compared to the benefits given.

Re:DRM again...

[Anonymous Coward]

"The story here is that Americans aren't stupid enough to buy DRM crippled, expensive, and inherently limited, stand-alone DVD recorders"

Sure they are. They've been buying DRM crippled, expensive, limited devices for ages. The problem is that they're too stupid to USE this one. Luckily for them though, they're smart enough to realize that they're too stupid to use this, and therefore don't buy it.

Re:DRM again...

[bornagainpenguin]

*places a hand over evilviper's mouth*

Yes He is! (You ALWAYS say 'yes' to that question!)

--bornagainpenguin

Re:DRM again...

[mebollocks]

Why in the world would anyone get a crippled stand-alone DVD recorder? Who said anything about crippled?

You have to put up with macrovision, and digital tokens preventing recording from DVDs or VHS tapes, and even sometimes digital cable/satellite tuners No you don't, where are you getting this idea from? It's just like a VCR, except it's got a HD.

You have to record in real-time, at low quality, and that's if you or an installer can even figure out how to get the wiring right... Most satellite installers can't figure out how to keep a single VCR in the loop, let alone VCR+DVD+DVDR+DVR. What low quality? Who makes you record in low quality? Wiring? You just plug the cable in the back? You need an installer for that?

Meanwhile, if you put a TV tuner and DVD-Burner in your computer, you can (trivially) edit out commercials, decide after the fact whether or not it's worth wasting a disc on the show... You can make backup DVD copies at 16X. You can back-up data from your computer. You can record high-def video to disc. etc., etc. I have a DVR, sometimes I use my PC to record TV too but I've never burned a disc for it. You can do all of these things with a DVR too, record it to DIVX if you like. Methinks you don't know what you're talking about.

The story here is that Americans aren't stupid enough to buy DRM crippled, expensive, and inherently limited, stand-alone DVD recorders. Keep dreaming pal. I can't believe you've been modded up for this, I guess it's because it's 2:30am in Europe.

Re:DRM again...

[evilviper]

The real story is that TV in the rest of the world can be considered viewable without heavy editing.

We have commercial-free, non-profit public TV (PBS) in the US as well.

A 1h show is actually a 43minutes torrent, which means that every night, you have 17+ minutes of commercial during an episode.

45+ minutes is more accurate, and the other ~15 minutes isn't entirely commercials either. That 15 includes a few minutes for the intros, credits, etc., etc. Even on PBS, an uninterupted 1 hour show can be edited down to ~52 minutes without losing anything. Go download a torrent of NOVA / Frontline / American Experience / Secrets of the Dead / etc.

This is the reason Tivo and DVR caught faster in the US than in the rest of the world, because they make the TV watchable again. This is a patch for a broken system.

I watch PBS probably ~85% of the time and I was still one of the early DVR adopters. Time-shifting is a great thing, even without the added benefit of skipping commercials.

After that, I agree that the DVR is a much better device than a DVD-recorder, but it does have some trade-offs, mostly that you cannot move a show and share it with your neighbors/friends.

Mostly untrue. Tivos have an option to move (not copy) a show between DVRs over the network, so it can be done. There were also Tivos with DVD Burners built-in. Not to mention that there are modifications available for commercial DVRs like Tivos to disable protections, and home-built DVRs inherently have no limitations at all.

Re:DRM again...

[evilviper]

You just called Americans smarter than Europeans and got marked +5 Insightful. Are you God?

Of course. I am American after all...

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

Re:DRM again...

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

I don't think that this is much about stand-alone dvd recorders than it's about dvd recorders and dvb. There has been standalone dvd recorderds in the market, but I personally don't know anybody who have bought it, and I suspect that many families have bought VHS-DVD recorder so that they can use to transform old cassettes to dvds. Even so, they haven't been that popular to make any noticable effect.

Now what is making effect in the markets is the introduction of devices that pack dvb+hdr+dvdr in to a one package. I have been looking myself into these, and some of these from Philips and Sony cost only 299 euros. It's just perfect, you get mpeg2 stream from dvb, you either record it directly into hard drive and then burn it if you want to, or burn directly. It just marvelous as there is no loss in quality.

Re:DRM again...

[GodfatherofSoul]

Close, he's American.

Re:DRM again...

[jschrod]

I also don't know why people buy stand-alone DVD recorders -- living in Germany, all people I know have DVRs with DVD-Writers included.

That said, you obviously don't seem to know much about the market in Europe. Most equipment here doesn't care for your DRM and just records stuff, no question answered. Hell, most DVD players are region-code free. Whereas, many non-geeks don't want a TV tuner in their computer, it would have to run for recording any show; therefore they use appliances for recording and burning. Those non-geeks also don't find it trivial to edit out commercials and often give up with software that they don't understand -- but luckily we don't have this insane amount of commercials as I've seen in the US... :-)

Me, I run a Dreambox, with two DVB-S tuners. I like that it's Linux-based and that I can integrate it fully in my home network. But I would never recommend that device to my mother-in-law, who is able to handle a DVR+DVD-recording device with her 72 years.

Re:DRM again...

[evilviper]

Close, he's American.

And Europeans apparently don't check other replies before they respond...

Re:DRM again...

[Zoxed]

> You just called Americans smarter than Europeans and got marked +5 Insightful. Are you God?

Probably not: just shows there are more Americans with mod points than Europeans !!

Re:DRM again...

[Chrisq]

Hmm... my multi-region DRM-free DVD-RAM recorder has none of those problems, and you can watch and record at the same time (timeslip)

Re:DRM again...

[Yer Mum]

I would say it's more due to the DVB rollout in Europe and the predominance of cable/analogue in the US.

In Europe DVD recorders (recording from analogue) came out first then combined DVB/HD recorders came out second when DVB was finally rolled out across several countries (it's much simpler to dump a MPEG2 signal to HD than it is to encode an analogue signal and record it and when one standard is rolled out across a continent you have economies of scale and a potential market that you don't have with one country).

Hence DVD recorders have spent more time on the market and have achieved more European sales, however combined DVB/HD recorders are probably rapidly catching up now (especially as they are cheaper and don't need you to constantly buy DVDs). Remember that in Europe cable and satellite are less popular than analogue and DVB and cable and satellite providers tie their recording devices (if they offer them, they may not) to their own service so this is why their devices barely show up as sales in comparison to DVD recorders and DVB/HD recorders.

In the US the Tivo came out at the same time as DVD recorders and given the choice between the two most people would go for a Tivo. However Tivo didn't exist in Europe at that time the next best thing was a DVD recorder.

Tivo have probably missed the boat in Europe now as it's a subscription service, and DVB/HD recorders can use the Electronic Programme Guide to achieve more-or-less the same effect.

Finally, with regards to the stupidity comment I'm morally obliged to point out that the sales figures for various different recording devices reflect the US's technological backwardness in yet another sector as Europe is all shiny and DVB and the US is not. Sort of like GSM/3G. :p

Re:DRM again...

[Lumpy]

Exactly, I have 3 DVD recorders, ALL of them imported myself from outside the usa. I got units that are not crippled and do really cool things plus have hard drives in them.

I even bough a 4th for my mother this past holiday. Compared to the US versions the imports are the exact same unit with a far better software in them. They actually work and do what you want. Hell, the last one I imported for my mom had a IR blaster out the back to control a cable box or dish box.. it also has a NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner in it. That unit from could kick the crap out of everything on the shelves here, but you cant find anything like them sold here.

This is the norm though for the USA, Japanese electronics makers are convinced that americans are dumb and refuse to release products in the USA if they are considered too complicated.

Re:DRM again...

[evilviper]

it's much simpler to dump a MPEG2 signal to HD than it is to encode an analogue signal

Apparently not. Analog MPEG-2 PCI capture cards for computers are (still) no more expensive than PCI DVB cards.

You also don't explain how this (even if it was true) could possibly have given DVDs any advantage over DVRs. Tivo isn't the only one making them, BTW, not by a long shot.

I'm morally obliged to point out that the sales figures for various different recording devices reflect the US's technological backwardness in yet another sector as Europe is all shiny and DVB and the US is not.

Your explanation doesn't hold-up, so that's a big no.

And I suggest you learn to accept technological backwardness... In just a year from now, the US will completely bypass the rest of the world, and force every last viewer from analog TV straight to high definition (1080i) digital broadcasts. Enjoy.

Re:DRM again...

[evilviper]

my multi-region DRM-free DVD-RAM recorder has none of those problems

Really?

It's free?
It performs all necessary wiring, by itself?
It will record to disc any data from your computer?
It will record and playback high-def video?

That's one hell of a device.

Re:DRM again...

[Yer Mum]

What does setting a price point the market will bear have to do with simplicity of design? If price were related to simplicity, Apple's stuff would be a third of the price it is now simply because they dump backwards compatibility with previous computer models after about 3 years whereas PCs are still backwards compatible with the first serial and parallel ports. Instead they charge a premium.

The advantage DVD recorders had over DVB/HD recorders was they existed, and that HD recorders only really started to appear with DVB (so on this point we will have to agree to differ).

DVB can be used for HD transmissions as well as SD ones, so in theory the FCC mandating that all stations must transmit in HD is neither here or there; if the viewer has an old SD TV plugged into a set-top box (as the majority will) everything's still going to look like it did before. Another thing to take into account is that most stations may not have much HD content (think of how many repeats there are) and be simply upscaling everything only for it to be downscaled at the other end.

Re:DRM again...

[evilviper]

What does setting a price point the market will bear have to do with simplicity of design?

I addressed price, assuming you had some idea what you were talking about... "Simplicity of design" is complete and total nonsense. One more chip (MPEG-2 encoder) on your tuner won't have any effect at all on the "design" of the rest of the device.

DVB can be used for HD transmissions as well as SD ones

Can be, but isn't. The converter boxes aren't set-up for it, so broadcasters need dual stations to broadcast HD. In practice, quite simply, it rarely happens, and switching everyone to high-def, after already switching them to digital, will probably never happen, or at least it will take decades.

if the viewer has an old SD TV plugged into a set-top box (as the majority will) everything's still going to look like it did before.

True only in the very short term. You can't buy SD TVs anymore, and the existing ones won't last for too many years, even if the owners don't upgrade just for HD (as many have).

Another thing to take into account is that most stations may not have much HD content

The switchover has been on the horizon for over a decade. Major stations have been broadcasting in HD for years, and all but the crappiest TV stations have been recording every one of their shows in HD for at least the past couple years, and usually, longer. It's true that it won't ALL be HD, but most is.

Re:DRM again...

[Paradise Pete]

just shows there are more Americans with mod points than Europeans !!

I don't think Americans are even allowed to own any Europeans any more.

torrents are easier

[VMaN]

Drop .torrent file in torrent directory on server. torrent takes care of the rest, while providing a nice web interface front end if needed even my gf can use, and playback using XBMC directly on the TV.

Now all we need it xbmc for linux to mature so i can playback 1080p with some better/faster hardware.

And as a bonus I have all seasons of all shows I've watched at my fingertips.

Re:torrents are easier

[grub]

Get one of these PopcornHour Networked Media Tanks. Plays up to 1080p and even supports mkv containers with x264 encoding. Only US$180.

I have one...

[Anonymous Coward]

...but its old, DVD-RAM. I still record onto it, its a nice second recorder when their are 3 programs I want to watch all on at the same time (a rarity of course).

However, I think they're completely wrong as to why people aren't buying them. Blu-ray vs HD-DVD is a better reason that people aren't buying them. I will buy a new DVD recorder when, 1. it comes with a hard drive so I can record an entire season of shows and then pick and chose what's worth burning to DVD, 2. I know the format will not be obsolete next year, 3. I know that DRM won't interfere with my ability to record a program in HD and burn it to DVD. Until I know that a product can do that I'll continue building and tweaking my homebuilt pvr/dvr which I know can do all of that (GB-PVR is awesome).

sigh ah mease goat tease!

[Anonymous Coward]

we are goatse if you please
we are goatse if you don't please

Silly question

[dagamer34]

Because bittorrent lets me watch it when and where I want while sticking it to the man!

480p DVDR - Useless For Me, But A 1080p DVDR...

[ausoleil]

Given that most major network shows, sporting events and movie channels are now in HD, having a standard-res recorder is virtually useless for me for the purposes of archiving shows and events. It looks like the old-style DVD to CDR rips used to back in the day.

Compared to Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, the difference is astonishing. Given that series disks for weekly shows and movies are coming out in one or the other (or both) formats now, it's just easier to purchase the disks and watch them in the preferred format -- and oh, save a lot of time by so doing.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have a 1080p capable DVDR for live events, because rarely if ever are they played back in situ.

Mine has been invaluable.

[bigbigbison]

I'm a phd student studying media and my dvd recorder has been pretty invaluable in recording things that won't get shown again. I know that there are a few shows that I would love to get copies of for my research that have only aired once because I've searched and searched for them or torrents of them to no avail. I have had some luck emailing the networks and getting a copy by telling them that it is for my research but the dvd recorder has saved me a lot of time and effort.

Another aspect

[bwintx]

One thing it was believed we boomers all would do with such recorders is copy our old 1980s and 1990s camcorder tapes to DVD to preserve them. However, with the advent of personal computers equipped with DVD burners and, often, cool-to-middlin' video editing software, that ceased to be a realistic draw. Besides: sooner or later you'd have copied them all over to DVD and -- then what? With the DVD-equipped computer, you've still got other things to do. With the dedicated DVD recorder, you've got an expensive doorstop.

Re:Another aspect

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't you "boomers" too busy voting more Social Security and prescription drug benefits for yourself with no regard to how much you're FUCKING UP the next generation, to worry about things like DVR's? If you weren't such whores then the politicians would have a much more difficult time running the country into the ground. Just can't resist the vote-buying incentives can you?

Re:Another aspect

[Yetihehe]

Actually those tapes may last longer than dvds :/

Americans are waiting for the price to crash

[RevWaldo]

Remember when VCRs were expensive as hell? An investment? Now you can pick one up at ShopRite for $40 along with your Bud and Cheezits and bag-o-salad. At their current price - $180 or so - the psychological barrier is too much to use it as a VCR replacement. Get them around $99 retail and we're good to go. (I once saw an ad for a Protron DVD recorder for about $50 but the online reviews brickbatted it.)

Re:Americans are waiting for the price to crash

[ausoleil]

Agreed. That and the widespread adoption of 1080p sets is starting to happen, because of price. Blu-Ray players are starting to come to Earth (I recently got one for $200) and they too are starting to be adopted.

Maybe it's Britney Spears?

[sheldon]

Yeah, sure, ok, so American television repeats the same story about Britney 20 times a day.

But maybe the simpler answer is we really don't care what Britney Spears is doing?

Who cares?

[mikee805]

Who cares?

Hi Dan East!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Dan East! Thanks for putting your name at the bottom of your posts! That's so much easier than looking at your username. We should ask slashdot to put in some type of signature function, so that you wouldn't have to type Dan East every time. Oh! It would be even better if people had the option of removing signatures, in their preferences, so they could just look at usernames and not have to see signatures if they wanted to. Yeah... That'd be awesome if they did that.

Anonymous Coward

Why I don't have one

[Anonymous Cowpat]

There's nothing to be easily recorded. Terrestrial is almost exclusively CRAP, and the only DVD recorder that I've got near only has a terrestrial tuner - that one has NEVER been used for recording anything, at all. So, you could always plug the output of a freeview box or digital cable box into it, but that involves two devices. That involves setting the channel on the recorder and on the box, and making sure that someone else doesn't come along 1/2 an hour later and just change the channel on the box (because there will be no indication on the box that they shouldn't). Which makes it a flakey solution at best. See, now, I'd trot mythTV out as the solution here, but I haven't used it and don't know if it is the solution (can it output what it's recorded to DVDs?), why? Because freeview isn't really enough either, especially when we're paying £30 for digital cable, and what can't you get? digital cable decoder cards. And why can't you get them? because British digital cable is a monopoly run by a bunch of morons who think it's clever to use a system which doesn't conform to the DVB-C standard. Bastards. For which there are no decoder cards and you have to use their crappy box, and the best their tech could suggest was to use the RF output and a regular video card. Which means, given that we can't plug the box into our VCR that we have no recording capability whatsoever. So, my own ask /. , is it possible to set up a properly integrated PVR that will work with British digital cable (ex-NTL)?

Re:Why I don't have one

[91degrees]

So, my own ask /. , is it possible to set up a properly integrated PVR that will work with British digital cable (ex-NTL)?

Yes. Option One: Get a V+ Box.

Option Two: Get a second had TiVo. Pay for a lifetime subscription. It's not "properly integrated" if by that you mean records the digital stream directly but it does control the cable box remotely (the older Pace boxes need an adaptor), and it gives you a very nice guide and does all the channel changing automatically using an IR emitter.

Re:Why I don't have one

[Anonymous Cowpat]

I looked at the V+ box, but apparently all your recordings stop working every time they update the software. It also doesn't output the recordings to DVD and (I forgot to mention this requirement) you can't hook it up to your network and start streaming your recordings to the other computers in the house. The second hand tivo sounds almost workable, but it still leaves the possibility of someone tinkering with the box, I don't know whether you can hook them up to network for streaming purposes, and I don't get to do any tinkering. Both systems seems very closed up and as if they take control of your own system out of your hands, which is a compromise that I'm not really happy to make, especially as with either I'd be compromising on most of my other requirements as well.

Re:Why I don't have one

[CSMatt]

According to the MythTV website you can archive recordings to DVD and stream them over your network. If you use TV tuners with hardware encoders then the recordings should be in MPEG-2 format.

Disks are a pain in the Arse (Ass to Americans)

[MrSteveSD]

They get scratched and refuse to play. Some brands don't work too well with certain players etc. Hard drives make much more sense as long as it's easy to back stuff up. These days you can buy USB Hard drives that double as little media centres. You can record stuff off the TV and back it up on your PC if you want to. Obviously you can also transfer any films you have on your PC to the drive as well, so you can put your DVD collection on there easily (space permitting). I've seen quite a few different models and some of them are just caddies so you can put in any hard drive you like. They're pretty cheap as well. Something like this for example.. http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=221173&C=Maplin&U=SearchTop&T=usb%20media%20player&doy=17m1

The one I bought sucked

[iPaul]

After looking over several models I settled on one by Phillips. The most annoying part is that, when recording, the audio can't keep up with the video. It results in programs where the delay is so bad, it starts to become garbled. Although this doesn't always happen, it happens often enough that the DVR was a better option.

How about a bullited list?

[ProppaT]

* - (most affordable) DVD recorders don't record HDTV
* - (most affordable) DVD recorders don't record or tune digital cable
* - (most affordable) DVD recorders have really really crappy image quality, due partially to the fact that they don't tune the digital signal and also due to the fact that they just suck
* - (most affordable) DVD recorders do not have an in-depth recording menu like DVR's do. There's none of that searching for programs, record every instance of a program, "only record first run" options, etc.
* - (most) People don't like a bunch of discs laying around when it can be held in the device and, as an ancillary, most people don't want to have to remember to "load up the dvd recorder" before they go to work
* - (many) People just download tv programs off the internet if they want to keep a copy of the show
* - US major broadcasting stations have really, really good online sites that let you watch the shows (many times in HD) on your computer
* - DVD's just don't hold much data, whereas I have stuff on my DVR dated back to October at this point
* - Many DVR's from cable companies are easy to hook portable hard drives up to...
* - Many American's have the mentality that paying a little each month (to rent a dvr) is better than paying one lump sum up front (for a dvd recorder), especially when the DVR gives you the benefits previously mentioned.

Of course, I'm sure that DVD recorder technology in the US is severely lagging behind the rest of the world because DVR is preferred here (and, on the same note, I'm sure our DVR's blow the rest of the worlds out of the water), but until we see Blue Ray DVD Recorders that record HD programs and can store massive amounts of data AND until we see Blue Ray discs get cheap enough to make this a viable option, DVR's really the only solution for me.

Anyone who wants, feel free to add to the list. This was just off the top of my head...

Bogus reasoning wrt no reruns in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm from Holland, I'm also on the lookout for a DVD recorder and I can say that the given reason is bollocks. I can't speak for Asia but here in Europe we have also cable television and a very good share of reruns too. I'm wondering if the reasons aren't to be found on a whole different level. Heck, the use of such a device, especially if you got one with a harddisk on it as well, are IMO awesome. Its awefully handy to be able and (for example) watch TV while its also being recored. Telephone ringing? No problem, I simply pause the "program" while I'm on the phone and the device simply keeps recording. Then when I'm done I hit play again and I can simply continue right where I left off. Thats innovation IMO.

So I think the reasons should be looked for on a whole different level.

Use a Magnavox, not Philips..

[Rick Richardson]

I have two DVD recorders. Magnavox ($97 from Walmart; about 1.5 years old) and Phillips ($110 from Amazon, about 6 months old).

I use the Magnavox fifty times more. Why? Because it AUTO-SETS the TIME/DATE from a TV channel!
The Phillips doesn't have this feature.

Anybody want to buy the Phillips?

Re:Use a Magnavox, not Philips..

[dougr650]

Um, Magnavox *is* Philips, just with a different brand name. Philips consumer electronics division has owned the Magnavox brand for decades. Different models, will of course have different features, as you found out. However, the time autoset feature is not useful for most people. It only works if you're using a channel set (like free-to-air broadcast TV) that includes a local PBS station that correctly broadcasts the time signal. For most users with cable or DirectTV, there may in fact be such a channel, but you would have to manually specify it and if your cable provider juggles channels around (which mine does frequently!), then you have to re-set it. This is definitely one of those features where the device tries to do something "intelligently" and, more often than not, utterly fails. This often leads to your box being reset to some other time zone. So, personally, I would have a hard time recommending anyone to buy a product based solely on this feature.

Re:Use a Magnavox, not Philips..

[jawtheshark]

I have a Philips. It does set the clock from a TV channel. The feature is probably model-dependent.

Re:PVR DVDR

[jedidiah]

With an Open PVR, the idea of a console format just seems silly.
Want to make a DVD of your recordings? Just drag and drop them
into the desktop DVD creation app of your choice. It's going to
be far easier to use and more robust than console DVD recorder.

Many console dvd players even support "PC formats" like divx.

So restricting yourself to DVD Video just seems really silly...

Don't watch so much TV

[Kymermosst]

and you simply won't care.

I don't have cable, don't need it, and don't want it. I don't have to worry about whether the cable company lets me record a show. I don't have to worry about what media my DVD recorder supports. I don't need an 80" TV for some sort of fulfillment.

Its amazing how many people complain about the cable company, the studios, the TV and AV equipment manufacturers, the FCC, etc. But, when it comes down to it, few of the same people actually vote with their money and give it up.

Re:Don't watch so much TV

[elrous0]

Do your farts smell like roses too?

Re:Don't watch so much TV

[geekoid]

seriously, it's people like that person that make me want to go back to watching TV. I just don't like being associated with a group of people more Smug, self righteous and whiny then the most avid Mac fan boy.

Buggiest peices of sh

[Tmack]

If most are like the Panasonic one Im about to return, then its simply because these have to be the buggiest, slowest crappiest devices ever sold. I got a DMR-EZ47V, which is a Panasonic DVD recorder/VCR/Digital Tuner. Well, I got it mainly for the digital tuner and dvd player, since analog reception at my house sucks (digital actually gives me MORE channels) and I have no other digital tuner, my DVD player is old and locks up from overheating half way through a disc, and my VCR is ancient and I want to piss off the MPAA and actually convert the tapes to disc rather than buy more DVDs.

Well, it would all be great, if it actually worked. First, it takes a good 30-45 seconds just to power on, unless you set it to "quick power up", which is basically having it ON but not on (draws something like only 100ma less than full poweron vs ~14ma draw if its completely off). Thats before ANY screen comes up or it allows you to do anything with it. IF you happen to have a DVD in it when you turn it on, it automagically plays the disc. No, theres no menu option to turn off autoplay, and thanks to the feature of not allowing you to skip through an FBI/copyright warning message you cant stop it until it gets to the DVD's main menu, tacking on another minute or so to the boot of the damned thing (pressing stop does nothing but display the red hand indicating you cant do that, and eject wont work either, until fully powered on and not on one of those screens).

Once it finally boots, you have to press the tv/vcr button to actually view its output via the RF inverter (chan3/4), or turn on your stereo to get the picture via RCA jack (unless you have hdmi, which I dont, but that probably has its own issues), UNLESS you had a disc in the drive, then it will have already changed modes for you. Changing channels takes a good 2 seconds each, and if you flip more than one at a time, you risk getting the channel display out of sync with the actual channel its displaying. Also, the channel info display that shows what program is on/next stops working after a couple minutes of use. The longer you leave it on, the slower it gets (memory leak?), and it can take 5+ seconds to respond to a button press on the remote (ie: you push channel up and wait, and a few seconds later it changes. If you push it again while waiting, it changes several channels). It has a tendency to lock up at a black screen while the unit itself displays "U99", which the manual says is "Error, power off/on to reset unit". Which brings up the unit's display itself.... it displays the clock, only while off. When on, it only displays the status of the drive, or an error message, and you cant change it to be informative at all, there is no option to show what channel its on or to have it just display the clock, while watching TV, it always displays "STOP".

So, it has a DVD recorder as well. Well, it would be nice if it ACTUALLY RECORDED A PROGRAM! But thanks to DRM and broadcast flags (in this case, copyright flags of some sort, or just another bug), you schedule a recording, set it up like the manual says (ie: set the shows time, duration, channel and recording quality, put in a blank disc, and power it off), verify that its set right by seeing the red recording indicator thingy, and come back later to find that the scheduled event has passed, but the damn thing didnt do anything. No explination, it just shows up as an event in the past that you can no longer change, and you have a blank DVD still in the drive. WTF. It also claims to play "DivX" encoded movies, but whats funny is the cheapass 4 year old player Im replacing with it could play alot more of the formats than this thing can, and when this one tries to actually play DivX, it over heats and locks up only a quarter through the movie, after starting to drop frames and cause massive pixelation.

I bitched to Panasonic about it, they shipped me a Firmware update disc, which made it respond a bit faster to remote control presses, and reduced the number of lockups, but the thing still locks up, ge

Re:Buggiest peices of sh

[MythMoth]

I have the DMR-EX85. I feel your pain. The menu system is a crime against usability, the performance makes me want to kick it, and it crashes fairly frequently. Panasonic was a good brand once, but that's their last sale to me.

Re:Buggiest peices of sh

[dubbreak]

So why haven't either of you returned them? With issues like that I would have returned them to the store in short order.

Re:Buggiest peices of sh

[Tmack]

So why haven't either of you returned them? With issues like that I would have returned them to the store in short order.

Honestly: because while it sucks, once tuned to a station, its 100x better than crappy analog channels (I dont have cable/dish/sattelite, this is NTSC/ATSC), and can tune HD stations as well, which broadcast 5.1dolby digital that this spits out its optical port to my stereo... AND, panasonic promised all the problems would be fixed in a firmware update disc. Mine is being returned, I just have to deal with Panasonic vs BestBuy since waiting on the promised fix from the manufacturer produced nothing but pushing the thing past the 30day return window for BestBuy, so its now a battle to see who will actually take it back. Actually, I will be walking in to the BestBuy with it tomorrow and persisting until I can get a refund, even if it takes forcing the manager to sit down with the evil thing and try to get it to work well. Besides, in researching the problems I have had, other customers say that when trying to return the unit, (enter megastore here) claims its not "defective" since its functions do work, and that not being convenient is not enough to make it defective, or some BS along those lines.

tm

Re:Buggiest peices of sh

[MythMoth]

I should have, but too lazy. It's barely usable and it was cheap. Bad enough to ruin the brand, good enough not to be worth returning.

That's one of the problems big companies have; they might not find out how much damage a product has done until they fail to make the next sale. And that's invisible.

it's a stupid idea that apparently sells well

[SuperBanana]

This is just a stupid idea, just like the old TVs combined with VCRs which became obsolete when DVDs came out.

Unless you live in a country where space is insanely expensive, people live in VERY small apartments/houses, and live in a culture that appreciates aesthetics in their living spaces. After all, look at what Americans do- they try to dress up the TV, VCR, DVD player etc in a big "media center" so the cables are hidden and you have a place to actually put the damn thing. The Japanese just say "eh, let's just make an all-in-one."

You know all those old Mac-plus style form-factor macs? The Japanese went absolutely nuts for those, and in fact there was a market in keeping 'em going. Why do you think the Japanese also love those ultra-small laptops?

It's much better to just buy a standalone TV/monitor, and separate DVD player, TiVo, etc. and connect them together.

Um....what does your DVD player need to do besides play DVDs on the TV? That's the whole reason TV/VCR combos were popular. It's not like a separate DVD player lets you make bread. It's not like DVD players become obsolete very often, so you don't need to replace them.

Irregardless, you're arguing against the market, chief. If they're right in asserting that TVs with DVRs builtin are popular, they're popular whether *you* like the concept or not, and just because they sell them does not mean they're trying to capture the entire market of TVs or DVD players. Repeat after me: "just because an item is not intended for me, does not mean the product 'sucks' or there is no market."

Re:it's a stupid idea that apparently sells well

[Anonymous Coward]

"Irregardless" is not a word you fucking douchebag. Even if you ARE too goddamned lazy to read a book once in a while, at least try to appear like you do.

Re:it's a stupid idea that apparently sells well

[Grishnakh]

Irregardless, you're arguing against the market, chief. If they're right in asserting that TVs with DVRs builtin are popular, they're popular whether *you* like the concept or not, and just because they sell them does not mean they're trying to capture the entire market of TVs or DVD players. Repeat after me: "just because an item is not intended for me, does not mean the product 'sucks' or there is no market."

Sorry, but the market apparently agrees with me. Combo units don't sell well here in America. This isn't Japan we're talking about here.

Unless you live in a country where space is insanely expensive, people live in VERY small apartments/houses, and live in a culture that appreciates aesthetics in their living spaces. After all, look at what Americans do- they try to dress up the TV, VCR, DVD player etc in a big "media center" so the cables are hidden and you have a place to actually put the damn thing. The Japanese just say "eh, let's just make an all-in-one."

Right, and when one fails, you have to throw the whole thing away. Americans don't really like that. Japan is a huge consumer and throw-away society (much more so than America), so that concept works well there. Japanese also have lots more disposable income than Americans, who usually spend most of their income on housing and cars, not electronic gadgets which become obsolete in a few years.

You know all those old Mac-plus style form-factor macs? The Japanese went absolutely nuts for those, and in fact there was a market in keeping 'em going. Why do you think the Japanese also love those ultra-small laptops?

As I said, we're talking about the USA here. Look at the article title if you don't believe me.

Um....what does your DVD player need to do besides play DVDs on the TV? That's the whole reason TV/VCR combos were popular. It's not like a separate DVD player lets you make bread. It's not like DVD players become obsolete very often, so you don't need to replace them.

And what happens when your cheap built-in DVD player breaks? With your typical $40 one, you throw it in the trash and go buy another $40 Chinese DVD player. With the built-in one, you throw away your entire entertainment system. No thanks. And what happens when it becomes obsolete? I don't know about you, but my last TV was over 10 years old when I finally got an LCD TV. My DVD player isn't very old, and now they're already trying to obsolete it in favor of Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Anyone buying a DVD/TV combo today has already obsoleted themselves.

Re:it's a stupid idea that apparently sells well

[SuperBanana]

Sorry, but the market apparently agrees with me. Combo units don't sell well here in America. This isn't Japan we're talking about here.

"We"? *You* said "it's a stupid idea, like those combo TV/VCRs!"

I said "no, it's not- those combo TV/VCRs were designed for and sold well in Japan and Asia, and here's why, and the fact that they are a commercial success there means it's not a stupid idea, it's just catering to the market there."

My comments were fully qualified, and you made a universal statement that a particular device was "a stupid idea", not "it's a stupid idea for America."

And again, all the products you've declared "stupid" are commercially successful...

God, why am I wasting time arguing with an imbecile?

Re:it's a stupid idea that apparently sells well

[Anonymous Coward]

God, why am I wasting time arguing with an imbecile?

wow what a tough question, gee what could it mean?

Wow, have you tried Blockbuster?

[StressGuy]

I mean, I'm not really into the cartoon scene...I mean, my kids watch cartoons and all, but I'm just not up on all that.

That's really tough about putting all that effort into recording episodes of Avatar, it must really be frustrating when you and your girlfriend sit down to....

oh jeez....I'm sorry.....

Different TV culture

[mathfeel]

I used to be a viewer of Asian television and worked in the region. Most shows are not re-run. Most drama has well defined 10-20 episodes (sometimes more) story line that ends. So once a drama (or anime) series that end, a new one takes its place. There is not time period during the TV season (say between the "season finale" and "season premier") that you will see re-run. So, your choices are, in the absent of DVR, record the show with VHS or DVD or wait a long time for the DVD. One easily feel left out during those office water-cooler conversation, especially when the show climax.

Now, I'll rant a little bit about American TV. Seems to me, with few exception like 24, most TV program are produced on an episode-by-episode basis. And series can run forever (say, Law and Order?). Where as in Asia (I should say Japan, caz that's the one I know), TV are produced in units of a full story line. So you'll actually have a few boring pilot episode that builds the character and then the plot develops. I am not sure if I am in the minority here, but I think the latter format usually produce better television drama. It feels more like reading a book than, say, a comic strip.

Re:Different TV culture

[MaWeiTao]

You're right about television overseas. It's the same thing elsewhere in Asia, hell, it's the same thing in South America. Spanish soap operas follow essentially the same format as Chinese, Japanese and Korean soap operas with a complete storyline running some 20+ episodes. I know Portugal has similar programming so I assume the rest of Europe is the same.

Another type of show I've seen everywhere else in the world except the US is the live variety show. It's especially popular in Asia. It basically consists of a bunch of celebrities sitting around talking about nonsense. It's not really like anything available in the US because the guests are there for the entire show, they discuss a variety of topics and it's usually comedic in nature. The guests tend to be selected on current popularity but it isn't like the US where they're obviously promoting a movie or something.

An important thing is that these shows are never prerecorded. That means if you miss an episode and don't catch the rerun later than night you're probably never going to see it again. Unless someone posts it on youtube.

I found American television extremely annoying because of it's episodic nature. And I think it's sort of a mandate dictated by the networks. I recall a few years ago how Teen Titans from having a continuous storyline to a more episodic format at the insistence of the network because they wanted the flexibility to air episodes out of order.

What I can't fathom is how in the hell American soap operas have been able to maintain 30 year runs. Doesn't anyone get tired of watching the same old crap without resolution?

I'm surprised to hear that DVD recorders are apparently popular overseas because I don't have any friend in Asia or family in Europe who owns one. Honestly, I don't think they care about television enough to bother. In Taiwan people just go out and buy VCDs or DVDs of a series that's ended. And more often than not they'll buy an illegal copy. So why waste time and money with DVD recorders?

Re:Different TV culture

[zakezuke]

What I can't fathom is how in the hell American soap operas have been able to maintain 30 year runs. Doesn't anyone get tired of watching the same old crap without resolution? I can't say I've really watched any soaps with the exception of Soap. It was rather cutting edge in 1977 dealing with homosexuality, marital infidelity, impotence, interracial marriage, gay parenting and alien abduction. From what I'm told in the 80s soaps started featuring alien abduction, impotence, interracial marriage.

I can't pretend to know how soaps work but I would imagine there are resolutions and new twists each week. What I can't understand is anyone who would watch a daily television series that's recorded on the fly.

Re:Different TV culture

[CSMatt]

Another type of show I've seen everywhere else in the world except the US is the live variety show. It's especially popular in Asia. It basically consists of a bunch of celebrities sitting around talking about nonsense. It's not really like anything available in the US because the guests are there for the entire show, they discuss a variety of topics and it's usually comedic in nature. The guests tend to be selected on current popularity but it isn't like the US where they're obviously promoting a movie or something.

An important thing is that these shows are never prerecorded. That means if you miss an episode and don't catch the rerun later than night you're probably never going to see it again. Unless someone posts it on youtube. I remember there being a show on Comedy Central from 2003-2004 called "Tough Crowd with Colin Quinn." (sp?) The show wasn't very good, and most of the guests were rather unknown comedians with the occasional celebrity, but it had a formula much like the one you describe.

I LIKE my DVD Recorder!

[penguin_dance]

I don't know that I agree with the statement, "With cable, the same show can appear on a channel several times." With some channels and some shows, i.e. movies, HBO, Showtime, etc. that's true. In years past we always had the summer reruns to catch up on a missed series, but no longer. Now a show goes through a season and never reruns unless it's highly popular and picked up as such a few years down the line. Seasons are broken up and new shows are now being introduced in what used to be mid-season (January) or even over the summer.

I do think the fact that you can run out and buy the entire season a few months after it aired might be a deterrent to getting a DVDR. Also that the standard DVD will only hold 1-2 hours of higher-def video.

However, I love my DVDR. I've got a Philips that plays DiVX on both CD AND DVD, so I can have almost a whole season of episodes on a DVD. When I record something I want to keep it's easy to copy from the disc (I use rewritable DVDs) convert to DiVX and edit out the commercials with Virtual Dub. Then it just a matter of recording them as files to a permanent disc. I never had that ability, in a practical sense, with a VCR. And I believe (or from what I've heard) that you cannot easily do this with a TiVO. That to me is more of a watch and record over. So if you don't want or need a permanent copy of something, that might be for you. And I hear a lot of people ending up with a hard drive full of show that they don't get around to watching.

The only disadvantage, as someone pointed out, was watching something else while recording is impossible. That is going to be a problem with almost any recording device except a TiVO because most people have to go through a cable or satellite box which has to be set to the right channel so it essentially records from that box. If it could go through the TV it would be able to record multiple channels at one time.

The reason ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the reason was because most Americans ran out of credit by now ... ;)

Re:PVR DVDR

[elrous0]

Well let me know when your "Open PVR" will take a cablecard from my cable company. Until then it's pretty much worthless to anyone with digital cable or HDTV.

Also, it's technically difficult.

[maillemaker]

I bought a DVD burner for my PC. I also bought a TV tuner card for my PC. My plan was to watch episodes of Battlestar Galatcia on cable, piped into my PC, record it, edit out the commercials, and then burn it to a DVD to watch later.

Not only did the burning take a long time, but I never got DVDs that reliably played in either of the 2 DVD players we had at the time. They would play for about 2 minutes, then the video would pixellate while the audio kept going for a few minutes, and then it would stop.

After dinking around on the support forums for a while I was told that burning DVDs was a black art, not to burn at the full rated speed of the drive, yadda yadda yadda.

Eventually I gave up. It was easier and much faster to just save the raw video file on a hard drive, and go buy a 500GB hard drive to store all my video on. Now I watch all videos off of my hard drive. Burning to DVD was time consuming, tedious, and unreliable.

Re:Also, it's technically difficult.

[nogginthenog]

I too have a DVD burner and TV card. My plan was to convert all the VHS tapes I have to DVD. My problem is not burning of DVDs, I always burn at full speed without any problems, but rather the encoding process. It's a pain! First you have to frig about with filters, cropping etc to make the analogue signal look OK. Then you have to rip it using some lossless codec (HuffUV etc) because either the PC isn't fast enough for real-time MPEG encoding or you want to do 2 passes. Then there's the actual encoding, which takes hours. In the end it's easier and faster to find a torrent for the movie.

Re:PVR DVDR

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I build my own MythTv based PVR a couple of years ago. I included a DVD burner in it, so I can archive off recordings. I use Avidemux 2 to edit out commercials and convert the soundtrack to AC3.

Better and cheaper than a commercial DVD recorder.

I'd wager

[Teflon_Jeff]

It's probably the same reason we use MP3 players instead of CD players. it's easier, faster, and cheaper. Who wants to buy a bunch of DVD's when I can have a hard Drive full of the same content?

how to set the time for my VCR?

[sci50514]

*blink* 00:00:00 *blink*

We haven't figure out how to set the time on our VCR.

Re:how to set the time for my VCR?

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny you mention it. Both my VCR and DVD-recorder both grab the time signal from the cable. Sometimes both go into bizarro land grabbing from the same signal, both grab some random time and display it neither matching each other or anything close to the correct time.

I am still using reliable VCR...

[antdude]

I want to get rid of my VCR when I get DTV and/or digital feeds (before February 2009 deadline) or if my VCR dies. However, DVD recorders are unreliable from what I read, don't have large recording spaces, and/or not true high definition (HD) if I get HDTV. Also, I don't want to use a dedicated computer since it takes a lot of heat (awful in my 90 degrees(F) room), power, and potential to break (want a dedicated hardware recorder without subscription). Bah!

Re:I am still using reliable VCR...

[Anonymous Coward]

Me too. I have no plans to get a DVD recorder. My VCR works just fine.

Re:I am still using reliable VCR...

[antdude]

Yeah, I know a lot of people who still use VCRs too.

Recorders were always a niche use in the USA

[Otto]

Video recorders were always a niche use in the USA. Think back to the VCR days. What was the main use of recorders, other than copying movies to build a movie collection?

Most of it was Video Rental. Playback. It was the only reason most people got VCRs. The fact that the box could also record was unimportant. From a tape perspective, a playback only unit didn't make any sense anyway, the hardware would play or record without any real cost difference.

The few who did know how to program their VCR's used it to record broadcast television. And almost all of that was not archival, it was one-time-use. They'd record it because they wanted to see it later. They didn't want to see it over and over again. Oh, sure, they recorded some things for the kids to watch continously, but really, once you've seen most programs once, that's enough.

Nobody really used consumer VCR's to make archives of video material. Sure, they copied movies and kept them around a while, but eventually a lot of people recorded over even these. Who has stacks of video tapes anymore? Did they move their material to DVD's? Home movies sure, but most of it just got trashed.

DVD Recorders did not take off because of all of these reasons.

a) DVD Recorders cost more than DVD players because of different hardware requirements. And most people wanted them for rental only.

b) Tivo and other hard drive based recorders filled the rest of the niche, because a Tivo is like a big programmable VCR, only you never need to change tapes.

c) The only reason left is archival, and people here simply don't archive video material. They don't really want to create their own long term storage except for their own home made materials. If they do, then they're perfectly willing to buy a high quality copy on DVD that they can keep for a long time.

The market isn't there for DVD Video Recorders simply because it doesn't fit the use cases of people who want to record video as well as other solutions do.

Don't believe a word of it.

[91degrees]

The reason TiVo took off so rapidly in the states was that it was actually marketed there. The reason DVD recorders haven't sold in the US? I'm guessing because TiVo is really good! Most of Europe didn't see it at all. Britain had series one TiVos available for a short time before they were discontinued. Not sure about the rest of Europe. This meant that recordable DVD had to duke it out with the PVRs available here. PVRs seem to be competing for the value end of the market. Until recently it hasn't been possible to produce a cheap DVD recorder, so they've been aiming at the high end.

PVR's are becoming more popular as people start to realise what they are. And since all of them are pretty much the same, manufacturers have started to add record capability to TVs. And why not? Even if you already have a recorder, the ability to record another channel is always useful.

Personally use a computer for everything

[heroine]

The one computer does the job of a dedicated TV, DVR, DVD player, cable box, web browser, mp3 player, picture frame, and video editor for a lot less money.

Re:PVR DVDR

[jedidiah]

Go away. You don't even have a cable provider PVR. You're beyond clueless.

Tivo's and Tivo like devices have NEVER had problems with "digital cable". Some of us have been doing this for nearly 10 years at this point.

As far as Cable HD goes: all of those component -> h264 devices set to hit the market are are going to make the cablecard moot. Then there's the DirecTV network tuner.

If it's a network show (like Heroes), then the issue of "cable" is completely irrelevant.

The real question is: when are the HD channels that are out there now going to stop broadcasting mainly SD content?

Re:PVR DVDR

[Sloppy]

To flip that around: digital cable and HDTV are worthless to people until they get their weird interoperability problems fixed.

I'll take more capabilities over more pixels, any day.

Better connectivity?

[clickclickdrone]

I'm surprised to hear people talk about incompatible cable boxes etc. In the UK and AFAIK most/all of Europe, everything has a SCART, HDMI or both as a minimum so any cable, satallite, DVD or VHS deck can be connected together, often daisy chained, as needed. There's no problem plugging your cable box into a DVD recorder, indeed, most DVD recorders can even change channel on your cable/sat box for you via IR transmitters.
I don't know many people with pure DVD recorders though. Most have combi HD/DVD decks, record to the HD first then copy to DVD sans adverts if they want an archive copy.

My family owns a DVD recorder, and we hate it

[Anonymous Coward]

A while back we bought a $100 DVD Recorder. What a bundle of joy it is.

We don't mind that it doesn't integrate with our satellite receiver, we DO mind that it turns good media into coasters.

On top of that, the timer works only 40% of the time, and navigating the menus requires the ability to translate Engrish.

While VHS 'just works' - You buy a cheap tape, shove it in, and press record. With DVD recorders? You have to check to make sure you got a + or a -, look up the brand to endure you aren't buying coasters, then stick it in, wait a minute for it to initialize (all the while you're missing the show), hit record, then close the disc session which takes two minutes, and hope that it doesn't generate an error in Engrish.

Americans want to record TV onto DVD - but it has to be cheap, easy, and reliable. Recorders are cheap, but the other two components are still sorely lacking.

Americans don't know DVD recorders exist

[Anonymous Coward]

When was the last time you heard or saw anything about standalone DVD recorders on TV or the newspapers in the U.S.?

WE DO

[dkarma]

buy dvd recorders they're just called DVD-RWs and we put them in our computers instead of under the tv. I mean we were presented a choice between set top boxes (~$400) or a DVD-RW (~$60) Does that mean we're smarter than other countries that do buy these overpriced disk drives?

We do have "tivo" like devices in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

But for example here in Belgium Telenet (a Liberty Global Inc. company) asks money just to let the device schedule recordings with help of the EPG. I'm not kidding. The device is also so unstable that it make's Windows ME look like a very stable product.

Personally I have a HDD recorder but the quality sucks but it's the only way because Telenet locks consumers in. No free choice of hardware but there is always the analog hole.

The explanation that they give is that Hollywood requests it and no other device could "guarantee" that particularly protection and quality. But as every technical person would known this is bullshit because they use standards (nagravision , MHP,DVB-C) but they just won't work together with other manufacturers. They even encrypt public FTA channels !

Re:We do have "tivo" like devices in Europe

[Mr2001]

But for example here in Belgium Telenet (a Liberty Global Inc. company) asks money just to let the device schedule recordings with help of the EPG. I'm not kidding. It's the same with TiVo - I pay $12.95 a month for one and $6.95 a month for the other (multi-DVR discount). But I don't just get TV listings, I also get TiVoCast downloads (essentially video RSS), recommendations, and various online features.

500 Channels, STILL Nothing On

[reallocate]

It isn't the prevalence of cable TV in the U.S. that dissuades me from buying a DCD recorder. It's the fact that there's nothing worth recording.

I just get the bare minimum cable package -- the one that costs about $10 and has about a dozen channels -- because I periodically look at the cable listings in the newspaper and can't find a bloody thing worth paying $100 a month to watch. When I do see a show I enjoy, it's not like it's so amazingly good that I want to record it and watch it over and over.

Why should I buy a DVD recorder to preserve the rubbish that's on TV when the networks are so good at making new rubbish?

Re:500 Channels, STILL Nothing On

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly, this is why I see no need to buy a DVD recorder or even Tivo. What's the point in America? 99% of the content on TV is just garbage...which is recycled ad nauseam anyways. How many different shows about house flipping can we make?? I used to justify having cable for the news and The Daily Show/Colbert Report. But hey, look at the state of mainstream news in America. You'll get more accurate reporting from the Onion. To get any objective reporting in America you ironically have to watch "fake" news comedy shows like The Daily Show/Cobert Report. The Daily Show, of course, can be watched online along with other shows like South Park...so what is the point really in the US???

I have one and it did the job I bought it to do...

[Anonymous Coward]

which was copy my VHS tapes onto a preferred medium. It was well worth the money I spent since I had quite a few old tapes that I had no room to store. I don't record off t.v. because there is little on there that I want to see the first time, much less see again and again. :) It plays DVDs and copies my VHS tapes. I'm happy.

Who needs them?

[unsigned integer]

Seriously.

Most American TV is utter crap, with a few shining jewels. Those jewels are so small and rare, that it's next to nothing to buy them when they come out on DVD. Anything else becomes a netflix rental (so I can watch it in order, and not have to deal with when they show them on TV) because they simply aren't worth owning.

Oh, and who wants to record movies off basic cable? Likely, it will be clipped, censored, or modified in some way. That's not the movie I want to waste burning to disc.

Have an RCA recorder

[Is0m0rph]

I hardly record anything on it. I use it to upscale DVDs to 1080 and on the rare occasion I video tape something I'll dump it from my minidv camcorder's firewire onto a DVD. My HD DVR provides everything I need for recording shows.

and if ...

[Anonymous Coward]

you made online movie viewing at $1 a time, they'd never purchase DVDs or DVD players again either.

This is why I don't buy some TV series on DVD

[OrangeTide]

My gf tells me to get Scrubs on DVD. But why, when they show it 5 or more times a day? I can pretty much turn on the TV anytime during primetime and I'm only 30 minutes away from Scrubs showing up on one of the channels.

And then there is House, where every episode is equally good because they are all exactly the same. It's on everyday and it does not seem to make much difference if I watch a rerun of it or not.

Bigger problem-Can't flap arms fast enough.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Now since the dollar to pound exchange rate is currently about $2 = £1 we effectively pay close to double the price for prerecorded DVDs. That is a real incentive to record any film you might want to watch in future and then keep the disk."

It's another incentive for brits to fly over to the US. Buy stuff emass and fly back arms loaded. Which you all have been doing so much of that tours have been arranged.

Who needs to record shows for eternity?

[RobinH]

I bought a Tivo (which we love, btw), and I thought it was so cool that I could copy the shows over to my desktop or laptop and burn them to a DVD. Do you know how many times I've done that? Maybe 3 times total, and only as a favor to a friend who missed a couple episodes of BSG.

Honestly, I can keep 165 or so hours of TV on the Tivo and more than half of that is Tivo suggestions. If I wanted to keep something for a while, I just keep it, but who wants to watch something after they've already watched it once? Seriously, nobody I know has that kind of time on their hands.

At Christmas I sometimes get a purchased DVD as a gift, which is cool only because you get the *extra features*. You won't get that with a DVD recorded movie anyway.

It's no surprise to me that DVD recorders haven't taken off.

MythTV

[SIGBUS]

A MythTV box with an HD tuner card works quite nicely. I have a pcHDTV HD-5500 card in my system, and even though I don't subscribe to digital cable, all of the local over-the-air channels (and subchannels) are sent over the cable in unencrypted QAM format.

All of the HD programming is stored in straight MPEG-2 format.

Even better, the MythArchive plugin will burn DVDs, automatically downscaled to standard widescreen DVD resolution, if you want to archive shows that way.

The only real problem with the HD-5500 is that the analog tuner works poorly on the analog channels - but I have an old Hauppauge WinTV card that takes care of that problem.

Re:MythTV

[TrekkieGod]

Yeah, I have a mythtv box with an HDHomeRun but I'm living in an apartment building where the over-the-air channels are impossible to tune, and where time warner encrypts all of the hd channels except for the weather ones (they started encrypting basic channels soon after I got my hdhomerun too). I love my mythtv box, but it's useless for HD at the moment.

Re:MythTV

[digitalaudiorock]

Yeah, I have a mythtv box with an HDHomeRun but I'm living in an apartment building where the over-the-air channels are impossible to tune, and where time warner encrypts all of the hd channels except for the weather ones (they started encrypting basic channels soon after I got my hdhomerun too). I love my mythtv box, but it's useless for HD at the moment. I have three HD-5500 tuners in my mythtv system, which I use strictly for OTA. Luckily I get good reception.

As to your statement about Time Warner, I used to just assume that the DTV local affiliate networks fell under the "must carry" and "in the clear" rules, but I've seen a great deal of debate about it, and many on the mythtv users mailing list seem to be running into your situation.

It all makes me really glad I can use an antenna. It's starting to look like the advent of HD, for many, is turning into a huge step backward for those who don't want to be married to their providers hardware. Truly sad.

Re:MythTV

[TrekkieGod]

As to your statement about Time Warner, I used to just assume that the DTV local affiliate networks fell under the "must carry" and "in the clear" rules, but I've seen a great deal of debate about it, and many on the mythtv users mailing list seem to be running into your situation.

When I looked into those rules, what I was told was that as long as time warner was carrying the non-hd versions of those channels in the clear, they were not doing anything illegal by encrypting the HD channels.

When I move, I'll be able to go the OTA route like you. I really wish there were HD tuners with cablecard compatibility that could be used with mythtv, but I don't think the powers that be will ever allow that.

Re:MythTV

[digitalaudiorock]

I really wish there were HD tuners with cablecard compatibility that could be used with mythtv, but I don't think the powers that be will ever allow that. I certainly don't see it happening. I think there's a reason that cablecard slots tend to be in units where you can't get to the content. When this came up on the mythtv users mailing list, I downloaded the CableCARD-Host Interface License Agreement (CHILA):

http://www.opencable.com/downloads/CHILA.pdf ...and quickly found this:

2. Controlled Content Paths. Content shall not be available on outputs other than those specified in the Compliance Rules, and, within such Licensed Product, Controlled Content shall not be present on any user accessible buses (as defined below) in non-encrypted, compressed form. I think that says it all.

You can live life, or you can be a slave to TV

[WillAffleckUW]

I for one like the ability to literally ignore it.

And I'll buy HDTV sometime in 2009 when it's cheaper (already have cable so my set will still work).

Have you noticed...

[Anonymous Coward]

...the newer DVD/VCR combos don't have tuners? (One model is advertised as "tuner-free", as if that's some sort of a bonus!?) Why? If the excuse is because of the switch to digital TV, that makes no sense. Converter boxes convert the digital signal to analog; therefore, those with converter boxes would still be able to record off TV just as before.
There's no antenna-in jack on these DVD/VCR combos, but there are RCA inputs. Perhaps one could run RCA cables from the converter box to the inputs on the combo, assuming the converter box has such outputs.

Because DVD Recorders are a bad idea.

[rtechie]

The fundamental problem with DVD recording is that PVRs are WAY better and took off in the USA long before the DVD recorders became popular. To this day, I don't think you can get Tivo in Europe due to a lack of guide information. Yes, offloading the content from the Tivo/ReplayTV/other PVRs to a PC for burning is annoying, but I did it all the time. And the model of the future seems to be a "media center" PC on the back end in a closet or office, with a front end box (like a AppleTV or Xbox360) for the living room. This model seems to provide the "best of all worlds", with a quiet set-top box and sophisticated editing and management features on the back end. This model does have the problem of being very expensive.

Re:Because DVD Recorders are a bad idea.

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

Eh... what do you mean about guide info? EPG (Electronic Program Guide) is a standard part of DVB (Digital Video Broadcast. I think what you meant was why wasn't there any guide info in analogue TV in Europe? The simple answer is that there would have been no standard and as DVB-T (terrestrial) was ratified in 1997, and in many countries, like in Finland DVB started in 2001, there was really no need to make any non standard changes to analogue TV as it was to be switched off completely anyway.

Re:Because DVD Recorders are a bad idea.

[rtechie]

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure. I just remember Canadian and British viewers in the Tivo and ReplayTV forums bitching that they couldn't get guide info and the Tivo and ReplayTV reps saying that nobody would sell it to them. That, plus excessive import duties, seems to be the reason PVRs never took off in Europe.

What's your theory?

Re:Because DVD Recorders are a bad idea.

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

As I said previously the reason for Europe lacking devices like Tivo and ReplayTV was that nobody was going to implement proprietary standard with analogue TV because the whole continent was committed to going digital by DVB standard that would incorporate all the technologies and services needed for those devices to work and because in Europe there is much stricter rules with following standards. If you get an license to send broadcast you won't get an unwritten contract, you are regulated to offer standardized service and nothing else. For Tivo and ReplayTV to obtain market from Europe they would have had to make deal with a local TV operators to implement services that would have allowed Tivo work, but as there was drive to DVB and as broadcast licenses are regulated tightly there was no uptake. I think this was the real reason. Other reason like excessive import duties don't hold water as duties are very low or none at all, as stipulated by WTO treaties.

In the end I think that having whole continent going to DVB was better idea than to make analogue TV better. Now with DVB we get broadcasts as mpeg2 stream that is the same quality as DVD, and as DVB is an open standard and the whole Europe is using DVB, there are plenty of devices and device manufacturers and as the scales will go bigger so will the prices of those devices. In example DVB-T Philips box cost me 39euros half a year ago, and now I can get basic DVB-T boxes in 29 euros, and DVB devices with two DVB decoders and 80gig hard drive costs only 150euros. Also all bigger TVs have DVB integrated, and some of the better models have HD integrated also.

Re:Because DVD Recorders are a bad idea.

[rtechie]

As I said previously the reason for Europe lacking devices like Tivo and ReplayTV was that nobody was going to implement proprietary standard with analogue TV I'm not sure what you're talking about. What "standard"? PAL was standard for decades and that's the only "standard" that Tivo/ReplayTV needed to implement. Having the Europeans upload guide data to Tivo/Replay seems relatively trivial to me.

Other reason like excessive import duties don't hold water as duties are very low or none at all, as stipulated by WTO treaties. The EU imposes a 14% duty on consumer electronics plus the VAT, which is higher for foreign goods. That's not "very low".

Re:Because DVD Recorders are a bad idea.

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

Analogue TV is analogue TV, that's a standard. With basic analogue broadcast you only send the picture and the voice. What Tivo/ReplayTV need is guide info, now that guide info needs to be sent somehow to the receiver. If I have understood it right, with Tivo/ReplayTV, the guide info data is added to the analogue broadcast. Now if you are going to add anything to the normal broadcast you are going to need permissions from the regulator. As I said earlier, there was no interest for any broadcaster to go with Tivo and implements what their device needed as DVB standard was to be implemented continent wide, giving all the same services in a standard.

You should also note that almost all electronics come from China anyways, so having 14% duty wouldn't have done anything to the price. To be also noted that VAT is included in all electronics. So the final price should have been the same relative to other devices, so where's the problem?

Re:Because DVD Recorders are a bad idea.

[rtechie]

If I have understood it right, with Tivo/ReplayTV, the guide info data is added to the analogue broadcast. Incorrect, the guide data is downloaded separately through a phone line or Ethernet (broadband internet). The only "permission" that is needed from the broadcasters is to allow them to send the guide data. The guide data is already provided in a standard format for the satellite providers.

You should also note that almost all electronics come from China anyways, so having 14% duty wouldn't have done anything to the price The EU has no duty on goods from EU companies doing manufacturing in China. So that Dutch Philips DVD Recorder has no duty, while the American Tivo has a 14% duty even though both are actually made in China. The US has standing WTO complaints about this.

To be also noted that VAT is included in all electronics. In many EU countries the VAT is higher for "foreign" goods, as above.

Re:Because DVD Recorders are a bad idea.

[Iloinen Lohikrme]

Incorrect, the guide data is downloaded separately through a phone line or Ethernet (broadband internet). The only "permission" that is needed from the broadcasters is to allow them to send the guide data. The guide data is already provided in a standard format for the satellite providers.

Well that explains quite much. If we look at 1999 and 2000, Internet connection penetration wasn't that high in UK, France or Germany. Only later times with introduction of DSL, the Internet penetration in those countries have gone up. So in that time the consumer would have had to pay to connect the device to the Internet to get the data, and also to get the data he/she would have had to subscribe to the service? Right? ... I would have not bought that. Also as I pointed out there was DVB coming strongly. As DVB offers everything in a one packet, guide info included, time to live in the market would have been very short for Tivo/ReplayTV as they too would have had to go digital with DVB.

The EU has no duty on goods from EU companies doing manufacturing in China. So that Dutch Philips DVD Recorder has no duty, while the American Tivo has a 14% duty even though both are actually made in China. The US has standing WTO complaints about this.

That I didn't know, but still, I don't think that Tivo had chance as the continent had made the decision to go to DVB. In example here in Finland there are no analogue terrestial TV channels and at the end of february no analogue channels at cabel, after that everything will be DVB. So if we make a leap and say that Tivo would have had uptake in 1999 and 2000 in Europe, they still would have lost the game as standardization to DVB would have ment that they would have had to comply with the standard and as DVB brings everything, they would have not had anything more to offer than their competitors.

Lifted from Wikipedia: "In early 2000, TiVo partnered with electronics manufacturer Thomson Multimedia and broadcaster British Sky Broadcasting to deliver the TiVo service in the UK market.[5] This partnership resulted in the Thomson PVR10UK, a stand-alone receiver released in October 2000 that was based on the original reference design used in the United States by both Philips and Sony. TiVo ended UK sales in January 2003, though they continue to supply guide data to existing subscribed units.[6]"

So they had a chance, but there was no uptake, more or less because of previously mentioned reasons.

Or a USB port and external hard-drive...

[msimm]

if we hadn't ham-stringed the next few generations by embracing (or being force-fed) HDMI and DRM.

Nice technology discussion but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't this caused by the difference between USA broadcasts and EUR broadcasts? In the EU, there's not so much endless reruns too choose from whilst watching TV in the US hardly ever shows you anything you haven't seen already .... no wonder that EUR residents like to tape programs as it's not likely to be re-ran anytime soon.

Re:Nice technology discussion but ...

[Corson]

besides, in the EU there are lot less commercials in the tv programs, particularly in the movies.

Uh Huh...

[morari]

Set top DVD recorders are everywhere. If they were doing so poorly, every store wouldn't carry them. My folks have one with a built-in VCR at that. They initially got it to transfer all of their tapes over to DVD (which didn't work on a few, due to copyright mechanisms), but have since moved onto recording films off of their satellite signal. Those commercial free channels are of good quality (not like ANY cable channel), and the little logo down in the corner isn't too big of a distraction. Really, if you wanted to, you could run the satellite through your computer instead and capture it there. Afterwards, you could simply erase the logo from the film since they never leave the black letterbox area. It'd be a snap! Simply convert and burn to a DVD afterwards without the ugly timed menu that those set top records add.

Myself? I'm fine with copying six films from NetFlix a week. You'd be surprised how efficient that "three out at a time" plan can be if you send them back the very same day that they arrive. :P

Who has that much time to watch TV?

[RubberDogBone]

Nobody buys DVD recorders? I've owned two, keyword owned. One LiteOn 5002 and one 5005. They turned out to be the single most unreliable pieces of electronics I've ever owned, with the actual DVD drive mechanism dying in less than a year on all three -and not from heavy use or anything. The 5005 burned less than 10 discs over a year span before it died.

And this from Liteon who should know something about how to make a drive that works. But nope. My brother got a 5002 for himself and it also died the same way. Just outside the warranty of course.

I don't have a third recorder because I just don't have time to babysit a real-time recording from Tivo to disc, and I really really don't have time to watch the discs afterward. Same reason I don't watch DVD movies. Ever. Between working 12 hours a day and sleeping when I can and other obligations, there's no room for DVDs or much TV so that reduced the need to get another DVD recorder to make DVDs I will never have time to watch.

Yes, probably.

[GameboyRMH]

Not only that, he said that the Average Joe American has some trace of intelligence, and he hasn't even lost the customary 1 mod point you lose for having your post's moderation questioned. Plus his name is evilviper. So yes, probably.

They need a hard disk...

[argent]

My experience with DVD recorders is that compared to tape they're fussy, annoying, and inconvenient... simply as a result of the technology. With a good VCR you can stop and start recording to skip commercials or to selectively record stuff and barely get a glitch on the tape, and slam a tape in on short notice, and they just work. When I was regularly taping I thought VCRs were finicky, but compared to DVD recorders they're perfection.

Put a hard disk in them with enough capacity to hold a couple of DVDs worth of data (which really isn't all that much) and write the DVD itself as a separate process out of band, and you'll get somewhere. As it is, no sale.

Yeah, initializing sucks...

[NotQuiteReal]

I rarely use the "record" ability of my DVDR+VHS unit. Mostly it is just a DVD player. (I will probably never buy tape player, not much call for that anymore.)

Waiting around for the "initialize" does suck. At least on mine it says it can take 4 minutes, but really only takes about 1.

What gets me is that I have to wait for it even if I am recording in the future - couldn't it be smart enough to initialize the disc on its own time? (like after I turn it off, or, even wake up a few minutes early for the future event to initialize the blank disc?).

TVs with Bluetooth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well there is a plasma TV with bluetooth capability.

Re:PVR DVDR

[demon]

To flip that around: digital cable and HDTV are worthless to people until they get their weird interoperability problems fixed.

I'll take more capabilities over more pixels, any day.

I'll stick with my Series3 TiVo, where I get the best of both - all the programming, *and* all the flexibility. Yay capitalism - it actually sort of works, sometimes!

An idea for electronics manufacturers

[hakr89]

A better design for DVD recorders would be a hybrid model. You first record the program onto a hard drive. Then the user can set to copy the program from the hard drive to the disc. Higher end models could feature editing and commercial flagging (for manually editing out the commercials) functions. This would make it possible for the user to decide whether or not to save the program to a disc, increases the quality of said copy, and the point to sell to QC is that it would make disc burning errors less likely since the drive doesn't have to burn at real time, and if the burn does fail, you can just pop another disc in and try again without losing what was already recorded.

A subscription for reruns.

[SeaFox]

With cable, the same show can appear on a channel several times. In Europe and Japan, viewers need to grab copies of shows when they can, as it could be some time before the episode is broadcast again.

Does anyone else read that as "there are too many cable channels in the United States if repeating shows often is required to fill those hours of broadcasting"?

Can't buy HDD recorders in the US?

[Roger W Moore]

One of the things which amazed me though is how it seems impossible to actually buy a simple HDD recorder in the US. I stayed in Albuquerque over christmas and, since things were a lot cheaper than in Canada, looked at getting a DVD recorder with an HDD built in. As far as I can tell you cannot buy them in the US. None at Best Buy or Circuit City, neither did their online sites list them. The only one I could find anywhere was a rather low capacity one at WalMart (which I did not buy).

So why aren't there any? My initial reaction was that there was some bizarre US copyright/DMCA thing about having HDD recorders...but then I saw Tivo's on sale (but don't want to pay a monthly charge). So is it a patent thing or is it just that, unlike Europe and Canada, there is no demand?

I LIKE My DVD Recorder...

[kennethlawson]

I have a cheap Sylvania Model that I got like a year and half ago from like, Wal-mart. While its not prefect I have had very good luck with it. I also have have a Dish pvr, so a lot of stuff goes on the pvr and recorded to the dvd later. Granted its not prefect, However, I've had no problem playing disk made on the dvd recorder on my JVC ss system. In a prefect world everything would have have a digital input and a digital output, which will never happen. due to material owners and DRM. But thats a whole another rant. I like my dvd recorder, I can use the slower speeds to get more material on a disc and I have put as many as 8-10 half hour shows on a disc. And once the disc is finalized it plays fine and looks pretty good.. The thing to remember is "garbage in garbage out," My sat receiver may be digital but it is down converted to analog to match my tv. thus only the rca outputs put on.. I use my dvd recorder at least once a week...

Hard Drives Are Cheap

[Doc Ruby]

The cheapest blank DVD-Rs are $200 for 1000, or $0.044:GB, while a 750GB hard drive costs something like $140, or $0.187:GB. Sure, HDs are 4.2x as expensive as DVD-Rs. But you have to flip them. To get 750GB, you need to flip around a whole book of 160 DVDs. The capacities are large enough, and the prices low enough, that $140 for a big enough HD means buying DVDs to sort around is not so appealing.

That said, I own 3 DVD recorders each inside a 200 disc jukebox.

That seems like a whole lot of work...

[patio11]

... when Amazon Unbox sells videos for about $2 each. (And $15 for the miniseries, which struck me as kind of expensive, but then I compared my salary to my entertainment expenditures and decided it wasn't worth worrying about.)

but they are successful...

[Corson]

...if they record directly to a DVD-R(W), not to a hard drive.

Not quite correct

[dave87656]

Many shows are repeated here in Europe, just as they are in the US. So I don't buy that argument. What might be true it that TIVO like devices are essentially non-existent here, so it's easier to use a DVD recorder.

An evidently complete, albeit expensive, solution

[earlymon]

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/Advanced+Video/Liquid+Edition/Avid+Liquid+Pro+7.htm

Price difference is the real reason

[Anonymous Coward]

In the states, it's quite common to go to Walmart where for example, you can purchase a Durabrand Progressive Scan DVD player for $21.88. By comparison, here in Norway, after much searching for a good deal online, I managed to find a DVD player made by a company called "United" which I believe is Danish for as little as 399 NOK (or by todays conversion $72.86). The typical price for a newly released DVD such as Pixar's Ratatouille purchased through a discount DVD seller is 179 NOK (or $32.69).

Norwegians (I can't speak for all of Europe, but I can from experience speak on behalf of the Scandinavians) rarely purchase the cheapest unit in the store, in dollars, Norwegians are likely to spend about $150 for a DVD player, therefore the stores don't bother carrying anything much cheaper. But, the cheapest DVD recorders available here cost about $200 instead. For the extra $50 (which is a little more than half the cost of a tank of gas on an economy car), people opt for the DVD recorder.... even if they'll never use it.

Let me also point out that here in Norway, technology propagates substantially faster than in the US. While only emergency workers and yuppies had cell phones in the states, Norway already had a digital GSM network and the typical 14 year old already had a phone. We ditched VHS 5 years before the states (the stores are smaller and DVDs use less space). Kids were carrying laptops around 3-4 years ago, from what I've seen this still isn't the case in the US. Normal people buy cars that get better than 30mpg and I personally have driven a car that gets 50mpg for the past 8 years, and that was the #1 selling car in Europe that year.

DVD recorders are not really that popular here as far as use is concerned. After all, we don't wait for an episode to be played again, we just buy the DVD set when it's released. It's becoming EXTREMELY popular in Norway for even baby boomers to download their TV shows from the states since we typically have to wait an additional 6 months before they're played here.

I think that American publications like C-Net are extremely naive when they assume that the sales of DVD recorders is attached to usage when in reality, it's more closely related to prices. We simply don't get the extremely discounted brands here.

A quick look at amazon.com/.co.uk

[Chrisq]

A quick look at amazon.com/.co.uk shows that UK prices are a little overhalf as much again.
The Simpsons Movie [2007] $15.99/£11.98
The Bourne Ultimatum [2007] $14.99/£11.98
Rocky Horror picture show [1975] $9.99/£6.97

I want a reasonably priced TV with an HD in it

[netpixie]

Just out of interest, does anyone know where I can get a TV with a hard disk in it in the UK? Trying to search for "TV with HD" gives me a load of High Definition silliness.

The only one I've managed to find is one from LG that costs £1700. I want one for £500 (tops)

Hard Disc recorders are better

[ThirdPrize]

What is the point of a DVD recorder where you can only get a couple of hours of TV on a disc and then you still have the hassle of swapping discs when one gets full? In the UK Free view HD recorders are becoming popular. Think TIVO withuit the subscription and some of the decent channels. 80+ hours of recordings is enough for most people.

Re:Hard Disc recorders are better

[kennethlawson]

In many ways they are,, However,, I had had 3 pvrs replaced because the hard failed so there goes everything on the hd. There is a LOT to be said for backing stuff you REALLY want up onto dvd. The one thing you have to remember with pvrs is the drive is on and spinning the entire time the unit is on weather its doing anything or not..Therefore they are prone to go faster then a hd in computer which spins down when not in use... Evey one is singing the praises of Hds, there other thing thing to remember, even if it only a anlog copy, its still a DRM free copy..

The Prefect Set Top DVD recorder

[kennethlawson]

The Perfect Set-top DVD Recorder... I have had a set-top dvd recorder for a couple of years now, and overall I love it. I use to make copies of movies off my dish network pvr, just like we used to do with vcrs. However now I make better copies and its all digitial and can play in most anything that plays dvds. I am getting a nice collection of old movies and tv specials and one-off specials from my local pbs station. I'm not going to bore you with a list of my collection, Right now, I focusing in on the hardware. Over all it looks like a regular dvd player,, but the remote has that lovely little record button...! There is where I'd make my first changes, one would be to better arrange the buttons, so the ones you use most, play record and pause, and stop were easily worked, without danger of hitting the wrong button. I would also ad a finalize button, what most folks forget is that when a disc is done you have to finalize it like you do on a computer made dvd, as it is, at least with mine is I have to go down through 2 sets of menus to finalize a dis. what a pain. not bad when you know the way, but still a unnecessary pain. One of the thing I love about this dvd recording in general is being able to put titles on the disc themselves when your done,, so when you put it in a machine you get a main menu, telling exactly whats on the disc. There in lies my other change, I would make it easier to add the titles, one way to do this would be to add a wireless keyboard, possible with hot keys leading directly to main functions like editing titles and the like, it would make it easier to do menus. It should be packaged with the unit, along with the regular remote. My other changes would be on the back of the unit, My unit would have a broader selection of inputs, not just the standred s-video, and rca plugs, I would ad HDMI both in and out, possibly 2 HDMI inputs, and the ability to input fiber-optics and a fire wire and usb , I'd also let it record in high definition, either HD or Blue-ray, with at least 5.1 surround natively. I am sure that the powers that be will never let such a unit be build and sold comericially, But maybe some techie smarter then me will figure out how to make the HDMI inputs work and get the recording laser to see what we want it to see.. Meanwhile ,I use my little magic box and dream digital dreams........ You may read read more of my ideas at kenenthlawson.blogspot.com/

Cable is not the cause

[Mutatis Mutandis]

Belgium has a 99% cable distribution network, you have to be eccentric or live in a caravan not to have cable. But we have a fairly high distribution level of DVD recorders, as well. (Judging from what I see -- I don't have any statistics.)

Of course the economics of cable television are different. Our channels do not (need to) recycle shows at the very frequent rate of US channels; they may repeat the same broadcast twice in a year, and that's it. (But they do make popular shows available on pay-per-view over digital television to satisfy fans who can't cope with having missed it.) That encourages recording.

On the other hand, I would assume that the astronomical high frequency of commercial breaks on US television would stimulate the sale of recorders, because they at least (for the time being!) allow one to fast-forward the commercials.

Yet at the same time the commercial break may discourage recording on DVD. To put something on DVD in a decent format, you would have to spend an excessive amount of time editing it to make a continuous story out of it. Better to buy it on DVD.

Another reason I could think of is the generally poor quality of NTSC encoding compared even to PAL. Buying the DVD gives people a much better image quality.

From personal experience...

[NeuroManson]

I bought a cheap Magnavox DVD-R/+R/RW and immediately decided to return it. First I had to go through the hassle of dismissing its "safeplay" (or whatever their DVD-censoring scheme was) 5 times, powering off and on each time, secondly, I had to "format" a blank DVD-R for several minutes before I could even record on it.

If I wanted to record anything OTA on a whim (such as live events or unexpected goofs) with a VHS recorder, I just popped the tape in and hit record, and lost a few seconds in time taken to load the tape. But by the time I had a DVD-R ready, it'd already have passed.

Of course you're getting what you pay for, a DVD recorder with built in hard drive storage would take care of that, at around twice the retail price of the "cheap" models. But otherwise, has this improved at all?

here's one

[White Yeti]

I have found one (and only one) item that fits the bill: Philips DVDR3575H/37. It has a 160GB drive as well as a DVD burner, and it seems to support all the disc formats. I like it because it also has Firewire and USB inputs (NOT outputs), as well as an ATSC tuner. Pricegrabber turns up a couple of vendors in addition to Philips itself.

That said, I haven't bought one yet. Reviews are mixed on the usability of the features. I'm hoping Philips, or anyone, comes out with an improved model this year. Echoing your last line, it seems like HDD-DVD units come and go without a clear purpose.

DVB vs. NTSC

[daskrabs]

In Europe, they have DVB, where they don't need some cockamamy cable box to tune/change digital channels. DVD recorders with DVB tuners can record channels digitally and independently of what's currently being watched, just like a VCR w/ analog cable does here. That's a big reason why DVD recorders work so well for them but not us.

Why watch anything twice?

[tjstork]

Really, that's what that boils down to. There's so much content out there now, and a lot of it is actually good, that you really don't need to watch anything twice. I remember watching Star Wars in the movie theater a bunch of times when it was the only good thing to watch, but now, if I want some sort of spaceships, I can always turn on some channel that has something about space on, or I can just shift gears and read as much as I could possibly read about spaceships, propulsion, imaginary universes and more on the Internet.

Re:Why watch anything twice?

[kennethlawson]

If as far back as you can remember watching a new movie is Star Wars your sadly missing a world of material which was produced long before you were born. . I venture to say that 99% is as good and most is better the anything produced today. You have your head in this now is good, forget the past mode, I can name at least three movies made in the 1940's that I'd rather watch then anything on tv most nights. A good move needs to be watched at least 2-3 times before you completly understand it if your watching carefully you'll find new stuff each time you watch it and you can take something new away . Try watching Casablanca,,"To have and have Not, Casablanca is considered the greatest love story/ wwII story ever done. the pairing of Bogart and Bacall is electric on the screen and off... So before you go dismissing old movies and any movie as not worth watch twice, try sitting down and really watching a movie and come back several months later and watch it again open minded..

Re:Why watch anything twice?

[tjstork]

If as far back as you can remember watching a new movie is Star Wars

Ok, you made me rethink my whole argument. I have to start assembling a golden era DVD collection and restate my position. I don't think I'd ever buy a "new" movie because I think they are all crap compared to the way I remember films from growing up.

I think it all started when I used to stay up watching Sherlock Holmes (the original 1940s with Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce). Yes it was watered down and Sherlock wasn't shooting up, but, for a kid, it was great stuff.

From there, it was onto Superhost. Ah, you do not understand what it was to grow up in northern Ohio in the 1970s. They had a guy on Saturday afternoon called Superhost, and he showed -all the coolest stuff-. I grew up on a steady diet of golden era Universal Films, 1950's sci-fi, the works. I loved, of course, all of the monster movies, like the original Frankenstein, Dracula, and of course, the original King Kong. I also really liked the 1950's cold war era stuff - Them, the Forbin Project, Earth vs the Flying Saucers, the 50 foot woman, all of that. And I liked the Flash Gordon serials.

I used to pour over special effects guys and movie magazines - I used to read every interview Ray Harryhausen had to say and my friends and I would make stop motion animated flip books. I love the craft of stop motion photography and I still do, and the whole process of blue screen matte printing. Can you imagine a kid seeing the skeleton scene in Jason and the Argonauts for the first time? How much better does it get than that?

And the thing was, about Star Wars, the original one, Episode 4, was that, it had all of that in it in one kick ass movie. And they did things with special effects that had never been done before, but, really, in the same sort of mechanical way. They used bigger models, bigger So yeah, there was, life before Star Wars, and life after.

Now, as for watching more adult films made from the golden era - I did a film series of classes in college, and while yes, Casablanca is one outstanding film. "Of all the gin joints she had to walk into this place." "You played it for her, play it for me." You are right, it doesn't get any better than that!

Writing in today's movies is not as good as it was in the golden era, and I think historians will make the convincing argument that the high point of American culture was in fact during that era.

Re:Why watch anything twice?

[kennethlawson]

Apology accepted.. I have to admit I made some assumptions too.. Such as you are a lot younger then your are if you can remember watching Saturday morning TV in the 70's then your probably at least as old as I am.. Mid-40's. I remember watching the original Star Trek, when it was on the first time. Over the last few years I have developed a passion for old movies, not that I don't like new movies, That and preserving the movie history, in a large part is part of our national history. One thing I would subject checking to see if you have TCM Turner Classic Movies.. Also check out my blog for my other ideas on this and other subjects in general, go back through the past few months and find the "Open Letter to the RIAA" among other essays,, kenenthlawson.blogspot.com/

Its all disposable content anyways

[Anonymous Coward]

Most TV content in the US is disposable to begin with. They can't turn out content worth recording and watching again. I consider Leno, Letterman, news, sports, and anything live to be in a category of content that I would watch while its current, but never go back to again. I don't want to see Late Night TV's tired old bits from 4 months ago, or old news. The only reason to watch something over is if it was particularly memorable, but its not like people will record because they MIGHT want to watch it again.

The only other type of content is long-running series, that all come out on DVD anyways, in better quality, with bonus features, and even at that, most channels have the same content delivery models in place where they will fill in one time slot a week, 52 weeks a year, with 26 episodes of a TV show. We know its on again.

Recording content is now by and large reserved for people who cannot watch the show at original time of broadcast, but will watch it soon after. Recording isn't for people archiving every episode of Regis and Kelly or The View, and watching them 14 hours a day...cause that would turn you into a serial killer. A hard drive acting as a 20-40 hour buffer for short term viewing is about all recording is used for in the home. There is no need for a removable media like DVD that need be stored, tracked, labeled and taken care of.
Though the harddrive recorders aren't the best either...one of Toshiba's major reasons for discontinuing them at least in Canada is that people don't erase the latest thing they recorded and keep old stuff, they erase the first-recorded programs and keep the latest stuff, and without formatting over time, they get buggy, slow, and sometimes just stop working. Their own fault for not having an automated defragmenting process I guess.

Where's the love?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, folks. I just don't get the animosity towards DVD recorders. I bought a Toshiba DR-4 DVD recorder (which records DVD-R and DVD-RAM) a few years ago and I've used it to record TV shows and movies that I like to keep and watch later. Plus, if a friend wants to watch something that I've kept, they can borrow the disk and watch it either on their PC or their DVD player. And the picture quality is excellent. The only 2 devices that I need that are connected to my Sony HDTV is my Motorola HD-DVR and my Toshiba DR-4, and I couldn't be happier.

Did I upset a Britney Spears fan?

[sheldon]

I'm so dreadfully sorry.

Sheesh

Video Game Play Recordings

[Vegan Pagan]

I use a DVD recorder for a whole other use: Video game play recordings! I rent a lot of games through the mail via Gottaplay, and each one I rent I record about 30 minutes of myself playing the farthest part of the game I'm up to. I also use an audio mixer and mic to narrate as I record. I've actually been doing this since the late 80s with VHS, going back to early NES games, and I copied those 18 or so VHS tapes (all recorded in 6 hour mode, because I'm stingy) to DVD once I got the DVD recorder.

I suppose this is a different use for VHS and DVD than what most people do, but it's what I like to do and it's cheap.