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Microsoft Acknowledges NBC's Wish is Its Command
theodp writes "Responding to questions about why some users of Windows Vista Media Center were prevented from recording the NBC Universal TV shows 'American Gladiator' and 'Medium,' Microsoft has acknowledged that Windows Media Centers will block users from recording TV shows at the request of a broadcaster. 'Microsoft included technologies in Windows based on rules set forth by the (Federal Communications Commission),' wrote a Microsoft spokeswoman, apparently referring to an FCC proposal that the courts struck down in 2005. 'Microsoft has put the requirements of broadcasters above what consumers want,' said the EFF's Danny O'Brien. 'They've imposed restrictions way beyond what the law requires. Customers need to know who Microsoft is listening to and how that affects their equipment. Right now, the only way customers know what Microsoft has agreed to is when the technology they've bought suddenly stops working. Microsoft needs to come clean and tell its customers what deals it has made.'"
Last I checked... Tivo supports the broadcast flag as well, yet those of us (I have 2) with Tivo's had no issues... So I guess the question is, why is Tivo ignoring the broadcast flag (not that I am complaining mind you, I hate the broadcast flag), but I am curious..
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
Seriously folks, I give it a couple of days at least, if not hours. Nothing horks of people more than this type of "By Your Command".
In fact I would be surprised that the hack is already out there. Just too much of a slacker to search for it.
Guns are for wimps... Use a crossbow.. this way you can pin them to their chair when you go postal.
I just want it to work!
shows just who the real "customer" here is... not you... you are the product, delivered to the media conglomerates...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
If Microsoft doesn't disclose what is going on, customers will be angry that they can't do what they thought they paid to be able to do, and in the future, will not give them anymore money If they do disclose upfront, many customers will not give them money in the first place. Damned if you do, damned if you don't when it comes to our friend DRM.
This is great news. Look, Microsoft has a vendor first / user second approach. The more stupid shit like this they do the more the users will catch on that they are simply taken for granted.
Parent is right, it's the commoditization of the consumer.
Caveat Utilitor
I'm all about multinational billion dollar corporates deciding for me about what I can and can't record legally. It's hell sweet! Before you know it, we'll have pay-per-view on every single broadcast!
Brought to you by WeSaySo Corporation, ooops, MSNBC and Microsoft.
I used to think MSNBC meant Must See NBC, as part of their "Must See" advertising. Thank you for unlocking this mysterious tie to Microsoft.
I say let them drag each other into the ground. I can't recall the last time I watched any of the NBC networks. OK, I briefly watched some of the Olympics last time around, but that was about all. Even if there were anything decent to watch when I was away, I always have my VCR.
As for Microsoft, they do make some darn good keyboards and mice.
What is it with Microsoft and the word "technologies"?
Heeding a fucking bit is "technologies"?
[Clicks fingers] Oh, sorry, that's marketdoublespeak to hide the fact that they're selling stuff that takes its orders from someone other than the customer who bought it.
I don't think so. People are not so apathetic as you seem to think. They will take notice as soon as it impacts on their ability and their freedom to do things they have been able to do since they bought their first VCR recorder 25 years ago.
Microsoft has been putting too much faith into its monopoly position. The more people this affects, the more people WILL move to alternative systems, and the more those alternative systems will improve.
DRM will never survive.
Microsoft has never been about the customer. Microsoft will gladly screw over their customers to get a few bucks or gain marketshare.
Here's an old but great example. Back when Win95 was released you could not natively use long file names with 16-bit apps. However, there was a product called "Name-It!" which did allow that function. In other words it was possible and quite easy to enable the function, but Microsoft chose NOT to implement it. Why? Because long file names was a well liked feature among customers and denying it to customers would give incentive to upgrade to new 32-bit programs.
Another great example is Messenger, the chat program not the service. Microsoft originally made it nearly impossible to get rid of. Even if you edited your sysoc.inf file and uninstalled Messenger, it'll suddenly come back. Even if you deleted the subfolder under Program Files, it would mysteriously come back. Obviously Microsoft considered its chat war against AOL more important than ease of use for its customers.
And of course there's product activation. We were told it was to stop piracy, but that was bull-shit. You can easy obtain pirated copies of XP and Vista. Let's face it, if piracy has been decreased, then why is Vista Microsoft's most expensive OS? Why aren't they passing the savings back to us? Clearly product activation is not stopping piracy at all. Once again, the real purpose of product activation is to screw over the paying customer who wants to install the OS he paid for on both of his systems.
And lets not forget how Microsoft's Office products are constantly screwing with file formats to make the later versions incompatible with earlier versions. Once again, this is NOT done to make it easier for paying customers. It's merely leverage to get those customer paying again and again.
It'd be really hard to be passionate for Microsoft's products. It's hard to be passionate for anything that nickel and dimes you at every turn. That treats you like a criminal. And sees you merely as a cash cow to be milked at every chance.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Sooo, it seems Microsoft has set itself up for a PR disaster and given the remote control to any content-provider that knows how to use the broadcast flags.
There is no better way to illustrate what restrictions DRM will have on the users day-to-day life, and Vista users will not like these demonstrations of Microsofts built-in Big Brother TM.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
Is this the place where those of us who loathe Vista as a bloated, DRM-ridden piece of crap that just can't wait to rat on its owners come for an apology from all those people who accused us of spreading FUD about it?
Just wondering...
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
...you tried to record American Gladiators.
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Let's see, how many different competing sources of videos are there today? And NBC thinks it's got the best ones out there and wants to restrict their dissemination with the broadcast flag?
I don't really care if Vista respects the flag or not. NBC, by putting it in the stream, thwarts its use, legitimate or not. In the YouTube/Tube world, they have *so* scratched themselves off the list.
Let's see-- was that good for marketshare, branding, asset value, shareholder value, or compennsation? Hullo?
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
In some parts of the world that's called collusion and when a convicted predatory Monopoly does it, in some countries, they get hanged.
I am starting to think that the customer is about to decide.
Why buy MS when you can get something that works. The reason MS is not working for the consumer is because it's not getting its money from the consumer.
Computers are becoming a commodity. By the time, if not already, the next windows/office comes out computers will be so cheap there will be little room for MS. Solid state multi capable CPUs should dramatically drop the cost.
I'd say paradigm shift to the rescue.
G
Nice one by MS, but this won't have much of an impact on Windows I think. What else are people going to use?
Huh? That is the absolutely dumbest question I've heard all week (but it's Monday). There are a lot of flavors of Linux, there's Sun, there's Be, there's Apple. or did I misunderastand the question?
Are you a Microsoft employee, did you get to slashdot by mistake somehow. or are you just trolling?
-mcgrew
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
It would help the argument a lot if people would stop posting the link to Peter Gutman's first paper. He already has acknowledged that some facts were based on pre-release versions of Vista, and Microsoft trial-balloons.
The newer slideshow addresses much the same issues, without the minor holes the MS astroturfers can use to misdirect attention away from the main points.
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Actually, Mythtv is pretty easy to set up now, if you use one of the distro versions (knoppmyth, mythdora or mythbuntu).
I add a nice pchdtv video card, which does not detect the broadcast flag, and I have nothing to worry about. Plus, I can burn dvd's of my recordings, and many other things.
Windows media center has a number of problems, and crashes too. However, because it is windows, people ignore it. Myth is just as stable. And can be tested before buying (since mythbuntu at least has a livecd)
I just glanced over the channel lineup for my area (I honestly didn't know what NBC was offering), and I'm in favor crappy TV networks self regulating themselves further out of my view.
/half-joking, half-not
It isn't much a surprise, given the lack of NBC on the chart.
Wow...So glad I use mythtv and don't have to worry about microcrap like that!
Has anyone using Tivo ever been able to go back to regular TV? If they took a look at the viewing habits of Tivo-ed users, they would be forced to remove the flag if Tivo had enforced it.
Ever since I got Tivo, I *never* watch programs in real-time. If I can't record it, I am not watching it.
Be? Is this a copy-pasta response from 5 years ago? If someone needs to record American Gladiator, they'll find something else to record it with (or watch it on hulu or nbc.com), not switch to linux.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
VCR recorder, is that like an ATM machine? ;)
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs. We have a protractor."
That's right brother! Power to the people! Down with the corps! Wait I sound like the '60s.
Microsoft is like any other kind of company. Provide competition (Tivo, Cablevision, ect - it already exists) and a consumer and they will provide what they have to to sell or leave the market. If the consumer don't care, then neither do they.
Then switch to another program. Media Center has way to many restrictions now. There are several out there. I use Sage 6.3 on Windows XP. It works on XP, Vista or Linux.
I think we should be grateful to Microsoft in a way. By fully exposing people to the whim of the content mafiaa (in this case NBC) it will finally become clear to a large enough crowd that DRM and like measures, like this 'broadcast flag', are taking away rights we took for granted.
Hopefully with awareness finally spreading beyond the minority of hobbyists, enough of a voice can be made to stop the big companies before it is too late.
As long as there is analog out, I'll be able to record my favorite shows. Just retarded you have to go through all that.
Is it really any surprise MSFT puts business interests ahead of user interests? It's been that way a long time.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
15 July 1996: Microsoft and NBC form MSNBC.
31 Aug 2007: NBC pulls all content from iTunes Store.
6 May 2008: NBC puts content on Zune Store.
Now: NBC has Microsoft block Windows Media Center from recording certain shows.
What other wonderful developments can we expect?
When I wasnt able to record last weeks Doogie Howser. Damn MS.
a great disturbance in the Force coming from West Hollywood and San Francisco.
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
Wow, I really wanted to buy Vista before, what with all the glitches and problems. Now I REALLY want it.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I'm a Mac owner, but until this broadcast flag thing happened I was contemplating building a Windows Vista based Media Center to connect to my LCD. I'd rather put a MacMini there, but there's no commercial Blu-Ray support yet.
So now how do I build a full featured alternative? The requirements I'm trying to fulfill are:
1) Play Blu-Ray movies
2) Stream Movies and Music from iTunes on my Mac (including some FairPlay encrypted ones unfortunately.)
3) Watch internet TV (Lost on ABC.com)
4) DVR
Windows was the only platform I've found that can do both #1 & #2. Mac's don't support #1. PS3's can only stream unencrypted stuff from iTunes, and they don't do #4 as far as I know. And now Windows has a crippled #4. Suck!
"things they have been able to do since they bought their first VCR recorder 25 years ago."
MacroVision ACP, anyone?
Yes, you can easily filter that out with a little box you buy for a couple of bucks if you're affected by it, but you're definitely viewing things a bit too rose-colored on the whole copy-protection front if you think that this sort of thing is new.
I've been a pretty loyal Microsoft user since Win3.1, and I'm a senior I.T. professional. I'm not particularly radical, I use Vista, and its OK.
.... - you're our customers after all. Being an IT professional, I can see perhaps there might be an issue keeping it going through system upgrades, or server upgrades? Well, how hard would it be supply music on the current store? Or perhaps there aren't enough customers to make this cost effective? I don't know, then you don't have to keep many DRM servers running to keep them happy.
.... after they made them bend over to develop new hardware for the Vista Capable logo, and then redefined the conditions so HP wasted their time and money. And then they were surprised when Vendors weren't developing drivers for Vista. To quote the MS executives, the hardware vendors 'didn't trust us'.
However, Microsofts recent performance has been pretty disgraceful, enough to force change for me. I point to three incidents - This one with the broadcast flag, the recent shutdown of the Microsoft Music Validation servers, and the release of the emails where it showed that senior management had no idea how to treat customers or partners during the months leading up to the release of Vista.
How hard is it for Microsoft to treat their customers OK? I mean, the broadcast flag incident shows they bend over for the broadcast networks, even though the networks business model doesn't even require this. Why do they do this to their customers? Obviously, the networks are paying Microsoft, but surely they can't be paying as much as customers pay for licenses to use Vista/XP. Why treat your greatest revenue stream like a POS - like they're stupid?
With regard to the Music Server incident, a number of customers have paid for music, these are valuable customers again, and they are having their servers shut down so they can't play their music beyond their next upgrade/reinstall. How low is that. I mean, how much more poorly can you treat your customers. How hard is it for Microsoft to keep a few servers running to validate that music, to say to the customers, look, we'll keep this going as a sign that we give a
As for the emails, I don't know where to begin. They treated HP like
It really pains me to use Vista after reading this stuff. This isn't a complaint about Vista or whatever, its an OK operating system, its a lot easier to use than any Linux variant, and I find it stable now. But I can't keep using it beyond my current hardware iteration. I'll keep using it at work, but from a moral point of view, I just can't keep using it personally. You just can't keep treating people like that, and I feel like a gullible fool giving Microsoft more money. I am pleased that there are alternatives at last, be it Apple or a future Linux that will be more innovative and user friendly by the time my current hardware dies.
Long ago when cable TV was new, part of the draw of cable TV was "commercial free!" and signal clarity. Well, there was nothing wrong with the signals we got over the air until cable lobbied to have the RF power of TV stations lowered and the commercial-free thing didn't last long either.
Of course, the internet was not created to be yet another form of advertising media, but that is what it has become and somehow people actually believe that is what it's there for -- they don't see it as a corruption of its original intent.
I bought some DVDs over the weekend only to find that the first 5, unskippable, minutes were advertisements for other things.
Why should I have to pay for advertisements being shoved in my face?
I once worked for a weekly news rag and we fought spam hard. Meanwhile, our own sales people were constantly pushing and stepping over the line when it came to their own email behaviors. As a company that is all about advertisement, you'd think they'd be more sympathetic to the "needs of the other marketers" out there. But in their defense, I suppose, they published a paper and didn't shove it down anyone's throat... and it was a free paper too, so no one actually paid to see these ads. (This is about as legitimate as it can get) Eve so, I couldn't stand working there any longer so I don't. I hate marketing. It simply corrupts everything it touches.
...they'll find something else to record it with
You spend over a hundred dollars to upgrade a product, it won't work as advertised, and than just just say "oh well I'll download it?" That's not how I would react.
No, if you bought Vista because of the commercials that tell you how it's a "mddia center" and you find out that your "media center" won't work, you're going to be pissed.
And "something else to record it with" includes Linux (or other UNIX clone like Apple or Be) and MythTV.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
I could see Tivo in the past implementing it as they thought it was inevitable, but probably once it was determined as not inevitable, a company in a competitive marketplace can't afford to screw their customers. The networks probably offered Tivo some money to honor the flag and Tivo may have decided the better business move would be that the money wouldn't be worth the lost sales.
Meanwhile MS is not accustomed to such a situation. To them, the end-users have been a foregone conclusion, MS expects to get that money no matter how crappy they treat those users. So when the networks come to them with an offer, it's a no-brainer. This is what a monopolistic viewpoint does. In the DVR space, you would think they would realize they are not a monopoly and not act this way, but until this incident, they hadn't had their situation tested.
It's an interesting thing showing users the reality of where they stand. They are not customers to NBC, they are a necessary evil for NBC to deal with indirectly to please their customers, advertisers. Advertisers desires trump viewer desires. To MS, the end-users are to an extent customers, but again they are assumed to be guaranteed customers. MS has to pander a bit more to OEMs, but not much. MS therefore views deals with other entities (like studios) for abusing their users as the place where they can grow.
I will say I like how this has played out in general compared to the alternative. The networks tried to get the FCC to enforce it on their behalf and failed. Now, they must pay every DVR vendor and every DVR vendor gets to choose whether or not the lost sales are worth it. Allow the broadcast flag, and specify a standard path for it, but don't mandate enforcement and let capitalism work it out. Of course, I know which way this would go, obeying the broadcast flag is dvr market suicide.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Why is everyone blaming Microsoft? While the broadcast flag is certainly not a required thing to honor, it is something the content providers wanted and something that doesn't really negatively affect consumers unless the content provider wishes so.
The fact of the matter is: It's not up to Microsoft to decide for you NOR the content provider. Microsoft can't tell the content provider "screw you" because you want to skip by some commercials on TV.
Microsoft isn't a champion of consumers, nor is any other company. They are out to get your money. That's their primary goal, that's why they exist.
Without support for DRM in Windows, we wouldn't have the ability to watch things such as blu-ray. This will become more important as the drives become cheaper and people start loading them up in their HTPC setups.
What do you want? To just not watch blu-ray movies?
You could go and download the HD movies you want (like I'm sure most people here do), but if you want to make a good faith effort to stay on the "legal" side of things, these technologies need to be in place by Microsoft.
It wasn't their decision, after all. They need to attract content providers to have a good reason to support the PC platform, AND they need to attract consumers.
Even if massive DRM was removed from say, Blu-Ray, tomorrow, it would not increase the sales of players nor movies. Why? Because DRM isn't as big of a "problem" as some people on these comments seem to think it is.
That said, let's look at the law here. You have no "constitutional" rights in the US to do whatever you want with whatever you want. You have no "rights" to download, store, digitally alter media produced by someone else if they don't want you to.
If you want the ability to do that, stand up to your government and push them for laws that favor your ability to do this more.
But hey, then that puts more "control in the hands of that evil, terrible thing we call government!"
Can't have it both ways.
Here is a good place to start.
This issue has already been settled in SONY CORP. OF AMER. v. UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., 464 U.S. 417 (1984) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/464_US_417.htm). Fred Rogers made a profound and compelling argument for the personal recording of television programs:
"Some public stations, as well as commercial stations, program the 'Neighborhood' at hours when some children cannot use it. I think that it's a real service to families to be able to record such programs and show them at appropriate times. I have always felt that with the advent of all of this new technology that allows people to tape the 'Neighborhood' off-the-air, and I'm speaking for the 'Neighborhood' because that's what I produce, that they then become much more active in the programming of their family's television life. Very frankly, I am opposed to people being programmed by others. My whole approach in broadcasting has always been 'You are an important person just the way you are. You can make healthy decisions.' Maybe I'm going on too long, but I just feel that anything that allows a person to be more active in the control of his or her life, in a healthy way, is important."
The problem with stuff like MythTV is that it does not appeal to the average DVR user. Most people who use a Media Center PC and can set it up probably have no idea what a SVN is or how to operate something like MythTV.
This is not newbie friendly. It's easy to say "MythTV, MythTV" and espouse the benefits of it, but you're not going to get people to use it if it is not easy to set up.
When you have an installer that you can click on and get the program working without having to mess with Linux and command lines (like WinMyth), THEN it will have a chance in the consumer market. Until then, the average user will put up with it or just hook up the ol' VCR.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
I add a nice pchdtv video card, which does not detect the broadcast flag, and I have nothing to worry about. Plus, I can burn dvd's of my recordings, and many other things. I wanted to give mythTV a try on my media center pc, but had a time trying to get an EPG to work with American networks, such as comedy central (I think the guide that came with myth-TV pretty much said, "find a web page and write your own html to XML converter"). Is there anything really convenient for newbies/casual users in the guide listing area?
I agree, Slashdot has gone to the trolls.
Dude, like "They've imposed restrictions way beyond what the law requires" sounds way too surfer, dude. I think, like, the expression you were totally looking for was "well beyond"... "Way" to get them to take you seriously, dood.
As a side note, I live about 1.2 miles from the NBC tower and my over-the-air HDTV signal (for every channel) dropped dramatically last week. I wonder if the flag might be causing interference with other broadcasts. Anyone else notice this?
That's not analogous. This was there to preclude copying content provided by the cartels via video tape. There's no MacroVision over the air waves (until now, that is...) and hasn't been for years. The GP poster wasn't stating that DRM hasn't been around or that an otherwise completely legit tool for cleaning up the video on dodgy VHS-C and Beta camcorder tapes would strip out the MacroVision crap. What he was referring to was the DRM that just got applied that precludes even RECORDING OTA television that just got inflicted on MS customers- something they've been able to do since the first consumer VCRs came out.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I think you misunderstood the question, he meant, "what will they replace it with that is an actual possibility for adoption".
Pretending is fun, but there's only one answer in your list that currently fits that bill.
I assume based on the post that you are in another country.
Therefore you are likely watching by satellite, or by it being carried on your local cable channel.
Here in America, I use schedules direct,(which I pay a very small fee for) but I don't think that will work for you. Mythtv's website talks about XMLTV for getting the listings for you. I would tend to say google your country or service provider, mythtv, and listings on a string, and see what you find.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. Apologies to Nick Diamos. So the proposed FCC rule was not enacted. At least M$ was leaning forward on something.
Invenio via vel creo
The BBC is stuffed with ads. The difference is merely that they're ads for BBC programmes and BBC products.
Come off it, every channel "advertises" what programmes are coming up next/soon. The real difference with the BBC is that there are far fewer ads - e.g. absolutely none in the middle of programmes.
most of your output is absolute dross like Eastenders
Which, dross or not (and personally I can't stand it) is very popular and has been running for decades in the face of even longer-running competition from other networks (Coronation Street anyone?).
It's official. Most of you are morons.
There are several Mythtv distros out there now that make setting up a Mythtv box pretty paintless, particularly Mythbuntu. If you're just going to setup a single machine and you have compatible hardware, it isn't any harder than setting up a Windows MCE box.
"Microsoft needs to come clean and tell its customers what deals it has made."
My advice?
Don't hold your breath.
As far as I know, the Macrovision crap never significantly affected the recording of an over-the-air program to the VCR. That always worked. What it did prevent was second-generation copies, and it interfered with piping video signals through other devices (whether they were actually copying or not, which is why I hated it).
Microsoft's technical solution prevents even the first generation copy from occurring. I'm sure they call that an advance.
Just bear in mind that the CPU requirements for playing HD on the frontend are pretty high....2.8 or 3 Ghz at least. You also need a lot of disk for the 6+ GB/hour of HD mpeg.
For anyone with a decent amount of linux experience it's not difficult on any decent distro. My frontend and backend are both Gentoo, and frankly I think it's ideal, as it's easy to build a system with only what's needed for myth and nothing more.
Oh yea...and this whole thing with M$ and the broadcast flag...I can't believe they're enforcing a rule that was struck down my the courts at the expense of their customers...that's pretty amazing even for them.
Surely NBC must have secretly bought up the stock of all the big Linux distros?
That can be the only reason that they'd choose to highlight Vista's toadying to the broadcasters. Either that or they're trying to buy Yahoo and they want to drive Microsoft's price down to stop them making another bid.
I wonder how many times the phrase "revert to XP" has been Googled in the last week?
I have to agree, but I also wonder if anybody will care. The summary implies that Microsoft is claiming that there is legislature that supports their DRM, but then says there isn't. To me, this appears that Microsoft used its Presidential veto powers to tell Congress to STFU.
Is it possible that Microsoft's contempt for competition will be noticed by Congress?
Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
On the Apple side EyeTV 250 plus is a nice gadget as well. I'm a big fan of mine. External unit, built in hardware encoding, plus I think its a whole lot easier to use than Windows Media Center and is more consumer-friendly than MythTV. Not knocking MythTV either, that is an awesome system and if I were going for a homebrew PVR I would take that any day. But if you want something easy to use that syncs to iTunes and doesn't require running another computer I'd go that route. Plus I'm running XBox Media Center so I can still get to everything on my TV via the network share :-)
Myth distributions are easy to download and in my recent experience (last two months) easy to setup
for anyone who can be judged a unix power user. Myth is NOT newbie friendly. Even so the real issue
with Myth is the front-end is relatively unpolished next to Media Center Edition.
Okay, I know it is probably flame-bait, but there is NOTHING on NBC worth recording as far as I'm concerned anyway, so- I don't really care.
Okay, I do care that if NBC gets away with it (and doesn't drive their viewers away)- the other networks start doing it too. If CBS or some of the cable networks do- I'll be really pissed.
I also refuse to use any software written by Microsoft. I'm sure if there isn't already a hack/crack to get around the broadcast flag- there will be, and it will probably come to Linux and Mac WAY before it comes to Windows.
If a network wants to limit my ability to watch their programming whenever I want (which VCRs made possible around 30 years ago), than I just won't watch it. I got a PVR/DVR so my life wouldn't have to revolve around TV- I'm not going to change that because of a greedy network.
(apologies for the bad Indy joke)
I don't know how your post got modded to "5, Insightful" when it should have been "0, Flamebait".
Read a little and learn something Informative, junior:
The terms http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/DFAST_Tech_License.pdf/ of just one of the licenses necessary for selling a Uni-Directional Cable Product (better known to you as "CableCard support") requires the vendors to obey these copy-control flags (including the flag that says not to make even an initial recording). TivoHD and Tivo Series 3 recorders as well as newer versions of Windows Media Center support CableCards and thus are contractually obligated to obey this flag even when the station or cable company screwed up and mis-set it; MythTV does not support CableCards and that is why it ignores the flags. Tivo Series 2 recorders do not support CableCards and, accordingly, continue pay no attention to the flags because there is no contractual obligation for them to do so.
This was not a result of MS stepping on end-users or Tivo having been paid off by broadcasters. This is a result of the FCC giving a broadcast-industry group final authority over the licenses a DVR needs to support digital-cable.
I use Mythbuntu for a very easy setup since it comes with a control center, some extra scripts, and most of the unneeded services turned off.
It also supports my MSI TV@anywhere card including TV channel changing while both XP Media Center and Vista's Media Center do not. So to review:
1) Linux supports my hardware completely
2) Windows does not support all of the features
So tell me again why do I need Media Center?
So they are selling and marketing something they KNOW full well will not work as advertised. When will this bullshit end?
So they are their own customer and so it short circuits and the only other customer they have is the regulator who insists they make good programmes
... public service enough for you ...
If the programmes are crap then how can they regularly sell them across the world and why do people pay good money for them?
Eastenders is popular not public service
Home makeovers are "filler" not public service
The BBC is the world's largest broadcasting corporation and has 20+ TV channels (Not including joint ventures), 16 national radio stations + regional stations
The BBC website is 33rd most popular in the world
It also runs the BBC World Service that broadcasts to an estimated 163 million listeners worldwide in 33 languages
Puteulanus fenestra mortis
Makes perfect sense to me... If the creators don't want it recorded, it should not be recorded. Blame/petition/sue NBC, not Microsoft.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
The fact that Microsoft will do this "to" its customers is proof that there is practically no competition in the market place.
If there were competition, a vendor would be terrified if their product did do what it was supposed to and would not side AGAINST the wishes of their paying customers. If there were laws that limited what their products would do, they would fight those laws to improve their products.
No, Microsoft has illegally protected its monopoly for too long. Almost all these abusive problems we see are a direct result of it. If there were real and thriving competition, none of this could happen because it would be the death of a vendor.
You can only so long screw your customers even if you are Microsoft.
Wonder if they can turn the flag on during a program, and would that stop Microsoft Media player stop recording? Just think of it! You're on the sofa; beer, popcorn & girl in hand, watching the murder mystery movie. 20 mins from the end the plucky detective and his sidekick bust in to the room where the murder is lurking with gunsight trained on them.... Recording stops... you either have to wait for the DVD or wait t ill it's repeated.... I bet some Station controller would do it for "snitz and giggles"!!
Laters Sol "Have you found the secrets of the universe? Asked Zebade "I'm sure I left them here somewhere"
with Myth is the front-end is relatively unpolished next to Media Center Edition. It's not so "unpolished" went it ignores the broadcast flag now is it?
Not sure why everything thinks this just affected Microsoft, but the NBC broadcast flag did stop a new Philips DVD recorder from recording the show.
The newer slideshow [cypherpunks.to] addresses much the same issues, without the minor holes the MS astroturfers can use to misdirect attention away from the main points.
Although even this one is still full of half-truths ("25 years ago, IBM made the momentous decision to make their architecture open"), FUD ("Mr Johnson, that fuzzy region on your X-ray [...]") and outright falsehoods ("In September 1997, Windows NT disabled the Aegis missile cruiser USS Yorktown"), not to mention the false premise that the whole paper is built on (that Microsoft is the one deciding when and where the DRM kicks in).
No matter how many times you shoot the messenger, you won't change the message. Studios are going to continue to crack down via DRM, regardless of whether the people watching are the tiny proportion using PCs, or the vast majority using commodity made-in-China appliances.
You will not get rid of DRM by attacking Microsoft. They're a bit player in the content playback market. The vast, vast majority of people consume their media through standalone appliances.
Fundamentally, the point remains the same. If you don't like DRM, avoid DRM-encumbered content (and, if you're particularly paranoid, DRM-capable hardware).
I have yet to see an almost-monopoly that pays great attention to its customers. Your "best outcome" would be nice but has the chance of a snowball in hell.
The best that is halfway realistic (and I might be a tad optimistic here) is that enough people use something other than Microsoft's products to
a) get the attention of Microsoft management and show them that shafting the customer does not work in the long run.
b) weaken Microsoft's almost-monopoly enough that there is meaningful competition. This would help to keep them honest in the future.
C - the footgun of programming languages
1. They don't need ads between the programmes. There are now BBC programmes which are basically nothing more than adverts (e.g. the Saturday evening reality shows which are nothing more than promotion for Andrew Lloyd-Webber's latest musical abomination).
2. BBC radio has adopted the format of 45-60 seconds of ads every two records. These are actually even more irritating than the ads on commercial radio as they repeat the same ones endlessly - which, if you're off work and have the radio on all day, slowly drives you insane (and these include ads for other BBC channels, not just the particular radio station). I understand that this has been done to make it easier for paid adverts to be dropped in for people listening on-line outside the UK, which is the eventual goal.
... people are using the Vista Media Center in the first place.
when my SDH 400 died, I stopped time shifting. I loved my Tivo- I couldn't see paying 8.31/12.95$ a month for tv guide data.
think about that-- TV guide is how much a year? 56 issue gift subscription is $31.92 and they snail mail it!
I read more than a few webcomments that the free basic was a major loser for tivo, far more people didn't convert to regular subscribers (including myself)
It was wonderful, I do miss it- now I catch my shows or I don't-- some I get from on demand later-- others I may never see, I'll live, and I'll do so with my
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Analog TV had a "broadcast
Yeah there is, you don't need to screen scrape or anything anymore. There is http://www.schedulesdirect.org/ which is pretty cheap and has been extremely reliable with good data.
You mean TOE the line, not TOW the line-- as in keep your toes on the line, not as in be sure you tow it from place to place.
Sorry but I love English and it bugs me to see it mangled.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
It does prevent people from watching American Gladiators ;P
Microsoft has come clean with its customers. Its customers are, of course, Dell, HP, NBC, and other computer and entertainment business plus the rest of the Fortune 500. Any home user is NOT a customer of Microsoft, or at least not one Microsoft wishes to have as a customer. Assuming the end user is Microsoft's customer leads to all kinds of logical dilemas. When you realize they are not then Microsoft's actions appear much more logical and customer focused and supporting.
Yes, MS says they will use the broadcast flag if asked, and as others pointed out, Tivo etc hasn't. It's probably because they haven't been asked. MythTv doesn't, but it is an open source project with no one commercial owner. If it was made by a company that made a distro and they were asked... they probably would. No one, not Jobs, not Gates and not Shuttleworth is going to do a perp walk so you can record shows. That's really between you and your government and the entertainment industry. I have media centre as part of my OS, but I use BeyondTV... They too would recognize the flag if they were told to, and an update would ensure it (I avoid a lot of updates after reading their notes). Maybe in some eyes, MS is the devil here, but I doubt you will ind many CEOs making a stand for you in such an instance.
Why I'm not buying digital cable, and instead rely upon broadcast for major television HD. I'll also purchase media, but only if it does not have significantly troubling DRM. I.e. I give CSS a pass on DVDs because my alternatives for legal consumption of media are not good, it's trivial to defeat, and I can't quite give up on the media as a whole (though I very rarely do buy any content, since I am fairly disgusted with the industry).
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
As usual, in the desperate rush to bash Microsoft over every minute thing, the real point gets lost.
The problem isn't, and should be focused on, Microsoft... the complaints should be directed toward NBC. If I'm a viewer of their shows, I should be able to record them.
It's exactly because of reactionary zealots like Slashdot represents that MS is very wary of getting sued... and probably overly so. The constant lawsuits has obviously created a chilling effect on MS and their willingness to continue innovating.
So when you guys want to know who to blame, look in the mirror. When you continue beating the frivolous litigation drum against one of the biggest software companies in the world, don't whine when that company takes extraordinary steps to avoid further frivolous litigation. The EU ruling that Windows... and ONLY Windows... can't bundle a media player into their OS was perhaps a last straw... especially since desperate vultures like Opera want to leverage that ruling to apply to every other component of Windows. And obviously, every other failing and defunct also-ran OS out there would like to see MS litigated out of business.
So stop whining. This kind of thing is exactly what you guys asked for.
"Vista or whatever, its an OK operating system, its a lot easier to use than any Linux variant"
I liked XP, but I have found nothing to like about Vista other than the claim it is more secure than XP, so take this as you want. Have you used Ubuntu 8.04? It is the first version that for me installed and ran easier and more quickly than XP or Vista. I had trouble installing 7.x versions, but after they were installed they also ran more reliably and quickly than Vista.
I acknowledge if there are any Windows specific programs you must use, setting up Wine or VM can be a pain. In that case dual boot is worth considering if switching wouldn't drive you nuts.
But so many consumer programs have a free equivalent that works at least good enough, if not better, than comparable Windows programs.
Ahhh!!! The British have invaded Slashdot! One if by land, two if by sea, three if by Internets. The British are coming, the British are coming!
My fellow Americans, let's restore the death penalty for child rapists. Let's do it . . . for the children.
When has Microsoft ever worried about the consumer first?
I absolutely love MythTV... when it works...
And admittedly Knoppmyth, on older hardware, in analog, using a PVR-150 card, was fairly easy to set up and get basic functionality. Even it had niggling minor problems I spent hours researching how to fix. But I have been fighting to get Myth working for the past 6 months using all 3 distros you mention on my newish (at the time) hardware and DTV card.
It has been an exercise in wasted time and beating my head against the wall. Recently I finally got it recognizing the DTV card. But watching TV the screen updates once every couple seconds, and the sound is like listening to a tragically scratched CD.
Unfortunately MythTV is just not for the faint of heart or those with little time and patience.
I am sorry that you had a bad experience, and I hope something like the new version of mythbuntu will help you. I personally have had only minor problems on older hardware, and I have both SD and HD tuners, and most of the problems are due to a lower end processor, but luckily XvMC helps a lot.
I hope you've been submitting bug requests too, so others can help out.
Oh goddammit. Please stop regurgitating the Waggener-Edstrom bullshit, OK?
IBM did make the PC architecture open. It was a side effect of the PC being built from off-the-shelf components, but the architecture was open nonetheless. The cartoon is a joke for fuck's sake. And are you denying that a divide-by-zero error in an application disabled the shipboard systems, which were running NT, on the Yoktown?
Fundamentally, the point remains the same: in order to please the content companies, Microsoft crippled functionality (no digital S/PDIF out), and put resource-gobbling crypto in all content playback. You cannot deny that, as even Microsoft acknowledges this as design goals for Vista. And even DRM-free content has to pass through the new subsystems, to validate that it does not have protections. That means all content runs through the DRM subsystems. There is no way around that without invoking magic.
BTW, what do you corporate masters think of you using a gmail account?
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Microsoft's products are primarily information products. Windows, Office, etc. Microsoft, therefore, benefits from the institution of information control, including well-enforced Intellectual Property laws and business practices.
So, Microsoft indirectly benefits from "playing ball," even if the information product in question isn't one of their own.
For some reason, I never really took to the Media Center. So, a couple of years ago I plowed down some cash and bought SageTV on an HTPC built from a previous machine (including a component-like HTPC case).
Absolutely no complaints, and I love that it includes interfaces to YouTube and Google Videos.
One of the reasons I went for SageTV for Windows is that I didn't have to bother with Linux. Just set up, configure (not that hard at all), and rock 'n' roll
The point here... there are alternatives to media software in Windows.
One ask oneself, why this is classified as an Entertainment story? Is this about the blocked show or about the fact that it is blocked? In the later case it should be in Censorship!
Just my two cents
K
"The BBC is in the business to deliver TV programmes to people"
May true once, but lately it's been in the habit of regularly interrupting programs with pretend adverts for programs on its other channels. It's news has also gone the way of Faux News especially since X/XX. No attempt at analysis just various supposedly independent commentators regurgitating the official line.
"International police agency Interpol says Colombian officials did not tamper with computers which they claim provide proof Venezuela financed Farc rebels"
davecb5620@gmail.com
I am sure some people have as much trouble with Windows Media Center as I have with the various Myth distros. Personally I haven't tried it since I'd buy a Tivo before WMC, and I would have no tolerance for problems if I did pay hundreds of dollars for WMC.
The last versions of Knoppmyth, Mythbuntu, and Mythdora wouldn't even install on my new hardware, each one had different issues. I am waiting with baited breath for the newest Knoppmyth which was planned to release several weeks ago. I just switched to Mythbuntu 8.04 and it is the first distro that would even install on this newest hardware and is the reason I have gotten as far as I have.
Right now at a minimum I know my onboard SiS Mirage 3 video is not being configured correctly. I get errors saying VideoOutputXv Could not find suitable XVideo surface, Falling back to X11 video output over a network socket. And XvMC is not supported by display.
I have tried to take advantage of google, the Mythbuntu forum, and the Knoppmyth forum. I haven't submitted any bug requests because I'm not sure how much of it is my incompetence and how much are real problems, and really whether they should be reported to Myth or the distro managers.
So? Scanners and photocopiers don't come with a clause on the box that it "won't scan currency properly". Neither did Photoshop CS. Software & hardware manufacturers have long been in "the dealz" with the Central Bank. For some reason governments don't readily trust that technology won't be used illegally...*cough*internet*
And before you cry that copying money is entirely different from recording TV for your personal convenience, keep in mind that little stores most often suffer from fake money, and big corporations suffer from pirated TV and lost DVD sales. Get the picture?
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/08/0111228&mode=thread&tid=152&tid=185
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/06/1513255
http://slashdot.org/yro/04/01/20/1734209.shtml?tid=158&tid=99
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/05/25/2327219&tid=194
See also http://www.rulesforuse.org/
And just for interest, compare Japan's page with the Euro. Different strokes.
In the sense that they're both TLA acronyms, yes.
Your courageous and selfless spelling corrections have made me a better person.
IBM did make the PC architecture open. It was a side effect of the PC being built from off-the-shelf components, but the architecture was open nonetheless.
That's why Compaq had to reverse-engineer the BIOS ? Because it was "open" ?
The cartoon is a joke for fuck's sake.
The implication, however, is not, and it exhibits an apparent misunderstanding about how the system is designed.
And are you denying that a divide-by-zero error in an application disabled the shipboard systems, which were running NT, on the Yoktown?
No, but the blame wasn't being aimed at an app, it was about Windows NT.
Fundamentally, the point remains the same: in order to please the content companies, Microsoft crippled functionality (no digital S/PDIF out), and put resource-gobbling crypto in all content playback. You cannot deny that, as even Microsoft acknowledges this as design goals for Vista.
Sure I can, because it's not true. If you're not playing back DRM-encumbered content, none of those things happen.
And even DRM-free content has to pass through the new subsystems, to validate that it does not have protections. That means all content runs through the DRM subsystems. There is no way around that without invoking magic.
The DRM subsystems are only activated when the application indicates it is playing protected content. That's how it's supposed to work and that is certainly how it appears to work. Again, it is so trivial to verify that the DRM restrictions in Vista aren't "always on", that the only people who try to argue otherwise are liars and idiots (eg: analogue VGA and SPDIF can output a ripped HD movie fine).
BTW, what do you corporate masters think of you using a gmail account?
Aks yo mama.
As has been long established, DRM only hurts legitimate users, without the illegal downloaders even noticing its existence.
I had heard about the new (not yet aired) "Bionic Woman" show, and asked my Windows Media Center PVR to record it. A few weeks later I went to watch it, and it wasn't there. It had failed to record "on request of the publisher". (paraphrased)
So, I didn't watch Bionic Woman.
I thought about this...
1) I wanted to watch their show.
2) They want people to watch their show.
But I don't watch "live" TV any more because I have a PVR, and PVRs are awesome.
(I don't even know or care what times/date shows air at. I just watch from my recordings.)
For some reason, this is "bad" and therefore I don't deserve to watch their show?
The demographic of people who own PVRs are the tech-savy, generally well-to-do crowd. That is to say: One of their most desirable demographics.
And yet we're prevented from watching it conveniently?
"Time" is my scarcest resource. The list of shows I watch is very small for this reason. I'm certainly not going to seek out a show I was only vaguely interested in, in the first place.
So "Bionic Woman" didn't get watched.
(Dodged that bullet!)
DRM "triumphs" again.
"We always use blood - it's more permanent."
B. L. Zebubb
Step 1: Install.
/dev/sda1, /sdb1, /sdc1 are different fucking drives. I'd set my data drives the way I wanted them thanks, I don't need Linux deciding that for some reason /media/Video1 should now map to THE FUCKING WINDOWS PARTITION. After two hours of hunting, I find the barely-documented "UUID" setup ... why the fuck does Linux not use that by default?
Step 2: Try to figure out what "default" settings are for my PC.
Step 3: Try to figure out why the fuck Linux keeps deciding randomly (on reboot) that
Step 4: drivers, drivers, drivers. I own 2 ATi capture cards (TV Wonder, HDTV Wonder) and 3 ATi (All-In-Wonder) video boards. Not a fucking one of them "fully supported." Advice I get from the Linux posers? "Duuude ati sux go buy nvidia and get a hauppauge or homerun capture card." Sorry: The hardware I already bought a couple years backworks fine. I'm not going to go spend $300+ on this.
Step 5: Back to WinXP and the ATi recorder software. It's not perfect but it beats the hell of of MythTV, which seems to ONLY work if you have the EXACT FUCKING SAME HARDWARE CONFIG AND CABLE PROVIDER AS ONE OF THE WRITERS.
I tried. I really tried to give MythTV a shot. No fucking way am I going to deal with that, and no fucking way am I shelling out ridiculous amounts of cash when I already have working parts. The Linux guys always scream about how they can fix anything, code anything, blahblahblah... well? Give me a working driver so the ATi capture hardware works and video playback doesn't look like crap compared to the Windows video playback, and I'll switch. Till then? Mythbuntu remains one more example of why Linux fails.
i like the way that content is referred to as "consumed" in these articles. as if a video or a tv show can be slurped into your brain, like runny ice-cream or jelly. hey, which reminds me: maybe we can get food-DRM installed into american fast-food joints, to stop kids getting fat!
The rest on their list, eh. I used to be a fan of all of the "Law & Order" shows but not anymore.
One should note that NBC is 80% owned by GE and GE is one of the few companies large enough to make a bid for MSFT. Microsoft cooperates with NBC as a signal that it will cooperate with its parent company.
I think the fundamental thing going on here is that Ballmer is trying to keep an exit strategy in play.
The premise of the argument is incorrect because the broadcasters are also a customer of MicroSoft. The cat was let out of the bag long ago that Vista had far more DRM features than XP so when they accepted the EULA they signed away their rights to manage their own computer too and made it a dumb terminal subject to the whims of MSFT and everyone else involved with its technologies.
But you can upgrade your Windows Media Center by replacing all the software bits with something called Linux Media Center, without any added cost. Just call up Microsoft and demand a refund and tell them you've switched to Linux Media Center and tell then to send you a postage prepaid box to return your Windows Media Center disks and books in.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Tivo is great because it is so easy. I started with one and now have five. Kicker is I only have four TVs. (One Tivo is spare in case a drive or fan dies.) Played with MythTV at one point, but the Tivo interface is just too easy. Not to mention the Tivo form factor is really nice.
:)
:) (I'm not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.)
I use pyTivo to access my NAS and all of BitTorrent movies and TV shows. I don't mind spending $750 for a Tivo, but I'll be damned if I'll pay $50/month for HBO and Showtime.
As for getting sued for BitTorrenting TV shows--has anyone been sued for downloading any type of media? Seems everyone that gets sues has been sued for sharing--not for downloading. But if you want to get into a gray area--download content from your ISP's news servers. The TV ads always talk about how if you use their service you will be able to download music and movies faster. The music and video they are talking about must be the stuff provided on their news servers--right?
Because the FCC can't get in the way of the Internet, Media corporations can control what we can find on big name websites. NBC controlled by NBCUniversal and General Electric, now has Microsoft on their side. Why else would Yahoo! be next on the Microsoft To-Do list? News Corporation, owners of Fox, MySpace, and the Wall Stree Journal, was also vying for Yahoo! TimeWarner, owners of CNN, HBO, Warner Brothers, and Time magazine, own AOL. Disney owns ABC as well as the GO.com website. (Who uses GO.com anyway?) And of course last weeks merger with CNet and CBS.
Robert Smigel was right.
Now the mainstream media (MSM) is looking to control a large portion of Internet. If the MSM does not allow us to decide what we want, why should we give them what they want? Why does that last statement sound so familiar?
The Rapture is NOT an exit strategy.
Also, the TiVo fits conveniently in my entertainment center, which has shelves designed to hold a VCR, DVD player, or cable box. A desktop PC would have to go on the floor and get bonked around by my Roomba.
Sure, I could buy a TV tuner, a remote, a miniature case, a quiet power supply, maybe another mobo if the case was too small for my ATX motherboard... but after all that expense, I'd still have to spend hours configuring and maintaining it? No thanks, TiVo works out of the box.
Oh, and I have two TiVos, but only one spare PC. Setting up another MythTV would mean buying a whole separate PC, and that one would need to be damn quiet in order to stay in my bedroom.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
Play games: check (although the games suck).
Listen to music: check, you can browse shares on your LAN or stream from Rhapsody and Live365.
View photos: check, from your LAN or a couple internet sharing services.
Weather: check.
Stream media over the internet: not for video, but you can use the Podcaster applet to stream podcasts. (You might be able to stream internet video if you install Galleon on your PC, but I never got that to work.)
Burn DVDs: you can copy recordings to your PC, convert them to plain MPEG-2 with a free utility, and then burn or transcode from there.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
I've avoided Vista like the plague. However with XP, I stopped using Windows Media Player long ago for the much more powerful VLC. Would VLC work as a replacement for Media Center on Vista?
That's piracy, genius!
Enlightenment is the elimination of that which is unnecessary.
Compaq had to reverse-engineer the BIOS to make a functionally identical copy without copying the code itself. The BIOS itself was fully documented, there were even full listings of the code available.
As for the implications of a cartoon: those are your responsibility. The rest of the world is content with what is actually written.
The Yorktown: explain to me how it is not the fault of the Operating System that the entire system goes down for one misbehaving application? Microsoft weenies may be used to that, but the rest of the world has higher standards, you know.
Explain to me how the DRM subsystems don't get activated for unprotected content. Here's a hint: how do you determine whether or not something is protected content? Magic?!
Really, do you Microserfs think the rest of the world is stupid?
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
"Microsoft needs to come clean"
In my opinion, the only way we'll ever see Microsoft "come clean" is if the DOJ ever gets some real balls and decides to go after it with a real punishment for its monopoly, which continues today on desktops, and seeking to start on the web again with Silverblight (Silverlight), just google for LOC and the deal with Microsoft which happened within the past few months. IMO it's the same as Microsoft Windows in libraries and classrooms, once you get the people hooked with something they feel that they "need", in this case more Microsoft shitware, people perpetuate the lock-in cycle. Look at how you feel you *need* DirectX? This is another artificially created need by Microsoft.
It should be argued, at least for PC gaming, they have a monopoly on the desktop with gaming, as most people need to use DirectX properly in order for the games to work. Sure Wine, Cedega, and other projects are making some progress and some games may work, and believe me I try every few weeks to see how it is coming along, but again Microsoft still continues its dirty deeds. They lie about Linux and Windows interoperability, "They said it couldn't be done!" Novell agreement bullshit just like the Corel agreement in 2000 or 2001, where Corel Linux was promptly spun off and money/support from Corel to Wine apparantly dried up. Time and time again they come in and either buy out or pollute the environment with thier proprietary crap, and we read another dismal Microsoft article after article every few weeks or more.
If Microsoft is so devoted to bringing Linux and Windows together, I don't see anything on their vast labrynth of shit at Microsoft.com indicating this. Where is the repository of interoperability Linux and Windows software on Microsoft.com? Oh, but you can still get their bullshit "Facts" on Windows and Linux, and that's about it. At least Google has a repository you can add to your Linux install for software from them. In my opinion, don't think Moonlight ("Ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight? I ask that of all my friends") will last much longer or work well for Linux users should Silverblight (Silverlight) suddenly become popular through payoffs and slight of hand corporate tricks.
If you ever want to have Microsoft come clean, no, I don't believe it would ever happen unless the DOJ finally came down hard and raided their offices, took their hardware and software and forced them to release the code and all of the various undiscovered backdoors waiting to be found, it just won't happen. IMO, Microsoft has demonstrated time and time again it will fight tooth and nail against any punishment against them.
We will all be cleansed if true justice were ever to prevail, but in the "United States of Advertising", most of the people in power are paid off, with big pharma and other corporate overlords always padding the handshakes and votes. It is a lost cause, you know it, I know it, but you'll still piss away your vote to one of the two parties who bend over for big pharma to slide in the money and the overpriced medications pop out the other end as we all struggle under the yoke of this dismal fucking world.
Come clean? Microsoft? The whole system is mired in filth.
Good luck.
We now return you to your normal life, ostrich head in the sand, millions of tokers/beer drinkers who raise their fist while watching Fight Club and return to their soap opera pitiful lives of slavery as the credits roll.
Vote for Wesley Snipes for President in 2008, neither one of the big parties will get anything done, they are a part of the problem. Slaves who perpetuate this broken system will mod this down and continue their sleep.
sleep... sleep.... consume.... and sleep.... zzzzzzzz....
bookmark boycottnovell.com to keep track of microsoft mafia
In Canada we see shows being blocked from recording using that flag all the time. Yes, its ok for a broadcaster here to stop us from recording a program.
Really? Which shows? With which service provider are you a subscriber? Which PVR model do you own? I have a PVR with Shaw Cable after years of using a PVR with Expressvu (essentially the Canadian version of Dishnet) and have never had a problem recording any program (well, other than for technical reasons that have nothing to do with any broadcast flag).
I believe you are confusing the 5C flag with the broadcast flag. The 5C flag restricts programs as flagged by your cable provider from being transferred from your set top PVR box to an external device via the Firewire interface. That's it. It does not interfere with your ability to record or retain any PVR events.
Wanna stream a recorded show to a seperate MCE machine, say a laptop over wifi? No Way. Can't Do It. Go buy a Media Extender and you can watch by way of an X-Box.
Tivo has Tivo-To-Go http://www.tivo.com/buytivo/tivogear/software/index.htmlthat does exactly the above scenario, at a LOWER TCO (numbers mildly pulled out of ass, but not a whole lot):
Tivo series 3 device (80gb): $150
Tivo lifetime subscription: $300
Laptop for remote viewing: $500
Tivo-TO-Go applicaiton: free
versus
WIndows MCE enabled machine: $500
MCE channel subsctiption: "free"
Laptop: $500
X-box with media extender: $200-$300 depending on setup
Lack of mobility with x-box/media extender combo: subjective
Windows MCE is more costly, is actually HARDER to set up than the Tivo option, and offers less mobility/functionality.
I've used both systems, and I would choose the Tivo system hands down for DVR functionality and streaming capability. Oh, and itunes is supported by Tivo-to-go. And no, I don't work for them ;-)
sig sig sig siggy sig
No I don't. Did you buy into a Microsoft media program? You deserve to be screwed. If it isn't painfully evident that MS cares not a wit for the needs and wants of consumers and only cares about what the corporations think you should have, you simply are not paying attention.
Fiat Homos et Pereat Theos
Last I checked, it was legal to record TV shows for archival and/or later watching.
So, doesn't that make it illegal for companies to conspire to prevent it?
macrovision was horrible, and the thing is on some tapes, the macrovision code would 'self' strip from repeated viewings of the tape, as the 'tape' streched, and made the macrovision code no longer legible to the part of the vcr that knew what to do when it got that code...
it wasn't until macrovision started getting involved in video game and dvd protection schemes that they finally got so annoying that people had to download special programs to remove macrovision protection from content.
sadly, there are asome standalone dvd players of dubious quality that won't properly play back non encrypted dvds. how sad, it's so easy with modern technology to make home movies that will actually last a long time, and then stupid small minded companies decide that you shouldn't be able to watch non encrypted content on home video players... (blu-ray supposedly requres all blu-ray discs be encrypted to playback, at least that's what i've heard, stupid, with HD camcorders finally finding a market)
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Shouldn't they call themselves NBCMS then, rather than the other way around?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
It sounds to me like Microsoft just didn't go back and remove the broadcast flag support from their software after the court case because it wasn't worth the engineering time and QA trouble to mess with it. IT was going to be years before it came up again. The probably forgot all about it.
Last time I commented on this and said this was another reason for not getting Vista, I got marked down as 'overrated'. Weird.
...oh yeah..the Navy's take-over-any-computer initiative...and how MS probably built in all the Digital Rights Management that the government needs to manage your Digital rights to your computer.
People were complaining about MS putting DRM 'backdoor' rights for Hollywood execs at their whim -- not required by law, and I think I made some comment about
People seem to think DRM is limited to Hollywood or music industry content...it's about anything you think you are free to do on your computer -- deletion of downloaded documents, programs, perhaps finding your computer can't access certain web sites...
Why would anyone think MS wouldn't do what AT&T, Verizon and others have done when they've already put in digital-backdoors for hollycreeps and the riaa? Why do people think vista is slower than XP? or that all the drivers broke? The drivers had to all be rewritten to support MS's DRM OS-wide enforcement mechanisms.
And customers will probably just continue sucking up whatever slop MS feeds em.
Just cause I'm paranoid doesn't mean MS and other corps haven't already sold or given away your rights. It's happened before, it will happen again and it will likely get worse before it gets better.
It seems like political parties on both ends are in bed with the major corporations. I'm just hoping that one candidates purported "inexperience" is politico-speak meaning he hasn't been fully bought and paid for.
Of course the last president that was 'too popular' with the people (and not selling us off) got assassinated....
I'm talking about Media Center solutions.
Even so, for OS', noone (for significant values of the population) even knows Be exists, and Sun is not a household name. Don't be ridiculous. Linux is still tough to configure. Generally, people do not want to dive into config files, which you have to do to get things like capture cards working. At least, I had a hell of a time when I last tried to get that working.
In terms of Media Center solutions, Be is dead, Sun makes servers and OS', Linux solutions exist but are not plug-and-play. Apple certainly *can* do it, they have the appropriate mindset in application design, but I don't know if they actually *do* have a solution at the moment.
So if someone wants a Media Center solution on their PC, Windows Media Center is the only realistic option they have. Hope this clears things up.
Compaq had to reverse-engineer the BIOS to make a functionally identical copy without copying the code itself. The BIOS itself was fully documented, there were even full listings of the code available.
Surely if it were an "open" platform, they could just reimplement the "open" specifications without having to resort to black-box reverse-engineering ? By that measure, something like Word's .doc format is "open".
IBM's "disapproval" of cloning is a fairly well accepted aspect of PC history. I'm not sure why anyone is trying to rewrite it. Presumably it's because IBM is now considered one of the "good guys" since they started using Linux for some things, and the anti-Microsoft crowd feels it necessary to whitewash anything IBM once did (or still does) that they might have disagreed with (like, say, exactly the same stuff Microsoft or any other large company does all the time).
(I have no idea how you'll trying to fit IBM's subsequent attempt to close up the PC completely with the PS/2 into your worldview, but it should be pretty funny to watch.)
As for the implications of a cartoon: those are your responsibility. The rest of the world is content with what is actually written.
Ah, so it's like Microsoft putting up a cartoon showing how if you compile some of you source code with gcc, or include a binary of it with a Linux distribution, you have to GPL your work ?
The Yorktown: explain to me how it is not the fault of the Operating System that the entire system goes down for one misbehaving application?
But the OS didn't go down (or, at least, there is no evidence of that). The application controlling the ship (or probably just some part of it) did.
Microsoft weenies may be used to that, but the rest of the world has higher standards, you know.
Anti-Microsoft zealots might be used to assuming whenever something goes wrong on a Windows machine it is Microsoft's fault, but the rest of the world likes to apply those critical thinking skills they learn in Primary School, you know.
Explain to me how the DRM subsystems don't get activated for unprotected content. Here's a hint: how do you determine whether or not something is protected content? Magic?!
Because the player application triggers the content protection when it is playing DRM-encumbered content. You can call it "magic" if that's the only way you are able to comprehend it, but the simple fact is that is how it was designed to work:
Windows Vista's content protection mechanisms are only used when required by the policy associated with the content being played. For Windows Vista experiences, if the content does not require a particular protection, then that protection mechanism is not used.Again, it is so stupidly trivial to demonstrate that Vista's DRM restrictions don't impact unprotected media, you'd have to be an idiot to argue otherwise.
Really, do you Microserfs think the rest of the world is stupid?
When it comes to Vista DRM (and, indeed, Vista in general), most of Slashdot certainly has a major case of teh st00pids. (Of course, on one of the web's premier anti-Microsoft sites, that's to be expected.)
Oh, right, this is slashdot, home of the fucktards with linux rectally inserted.
Now is that marketing savvy, or what? Here NBC is in dead last in the ratings wars, so they go out of their way to find new ways to antagonize potential viewers.
Brilliant, I tell you. Brilliant. lolll...let that be a lesson to you: If you want to succeed, keep the lawyers out of your main office.
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
Well, guess what, Mr. Shill, even implementing an open spec may leave you open to charges of copyright infringement, if you don't document your processes. Which is why Compaq chose to do a clean-room reverse-engineered implementation, to cover their arses, because IBM has always been known to have a trigger-happy legal division, then even more than now.
And as for your pro-Vista shilling, how does Vista enforce that applications use a secure media path? You keep dancing around that, don't you? I wonder why that is?
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Well, guess what, Mr. Shill, even implementing an open spec may leave you open to charges of copyright infringement, if you don't document your processes. Which is why Compaq chose to do a clean-room reverse-engineered implementation, to cover their arses, because IBM has always been known to have a trigger-happy legal division, then even more than now.
Strange behaviour from a company supposedly trying to encourage everyone to copy their "open platform".
And as for your pro-Vista shilling, how does Vista enforce that applications use a secure media path?
It doesn't. Nor is it supposed to in either design or spirit. The onus is on the application to request the "secure media path". The OS just provides one. No different from allocating memory, creating files or making network connections.
You keep dancing around that, don't you? I wonder why that is?
I don't "dance around" anything. You are simply unable to grasp that your preconceptions about how you think the system works (presumably based on the phenomenal amount of anti-Vista FUD posted on Slashdot) are wrong.
Vista doesn't "enforce" DRM - that would imply it applies DRM restrictions to media which is not DRM-encumbered (something that is, again, trivially disproven). It provides DRM functionality for those content providers who want to use it (as is their right, as the owner of said content). Which is why, as previously mentioned, if you don't like DRM all you need to do to avoid it is not use DRM-encumbered media. It's also why the only people ultimately responsible for DRM restrictions are those releasing their content DRM-encumbered, and why directing fury at Microsoft is both pointless and wasteful.
Ultimately, Vista's DRM won't do anything that every other player (be it a software application or a hardware appliance) will also be doing.
I'm talking about Media Center solutions.
Any computer with a sound card, DVD burner, video capture and and video-out is a "media center".
Linux is still tough to configure
So is Windows. Actually I find Window's "control panel" an inextricable mess, while Mandriva's KDE solution for configuring your hardware and desktop is elegant and simple. You don't have to "dive into config files" at all. It's pretty obvious it's been a while since you've tried Linux.
Linux solutions exist but are not plug-and-play
Bullshit. If you're serious then it must have been a decade or more since you tried Linux.
I don't know about Apple; I don't have one, but I would be very surprised if everything about them wasn't five years ahead of Windows.
You can't "clear things up" when you are so ignorant about the better OS choices out there.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Like hell it is. I was talking about 'solutions', which means plugging it in, and being able to record video and play it back conveniently. Just having the hardware does not qualify.
> Linux is still tough to configure
So is Windows. Actually I find Window's "control panel" an inextricable mess, while Mandriva's KDE solution for configuring your hardware and desktop is elegant and simple. You don't have to "dive into config files" at all. It's pretty obvious it's been a while since you've tried Linux.
I was talking about applications, not the OS itself. It's a mindset difference mainly. For serving media to my PS3 I googled for media servers. For Linux, getting these configured always required dicking about with config files. Getting the Windows equivalent (TVersity) running was trivial, base configuration works fine. That's the difference in culture between Linux and Windows, and the reason why Linux on the average desktop is not here. While I can get the media serving to work, without tinkering, it doesn't. While under Windows the default settings do work. I had the same experience with my capture hardware, and with getting MythTV to work, earlier.
I'll admit to having stuck with one distribution (Ubuntu), and have not tried Mandriva. I may give it a shot at some point. Improvements are being made constantly, but it's not there yet.
As for better OS'... I like gaming, so on my home rig I'm using Windows. For my server (mainly file store, headless torrent downloader) I use linux, and my work machine is a Macbook with OSX.
So you are saying that it is possible to create an application that is able to play content on vista without going through the content protection measures to affirm its unprotected status? Are you seriously saying that Microsoft sold snake oil to the content producers? Never mind answering that, selling snake oil is what they have been doing since they sold IBM an operating system that they didn't own and wasn't even written yet
Here's the question, and answer it for a change: how do you play any content on Vista without clearing it with the kernel first? You keep asserting it can be done, so why don't you prove it for a change? Just saying 'it ain't so' is not going to cut it forever, you know. In the meantime, you'll excuse me if I take a computer scientist with a long publishing history in cryptography a little more seriously than an anonymous Microsoft shill on a message board.
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Yes, yes it has been. It doesn't matter whether you call it 'OTA' as in regular ol' 'analog' broadcast by airwaves, or by satellite ( http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=465518 ) or through your cable company. It's all broadcast.
Physical media is only slightly different anyway, mostly when it comes to rentals (as you pay the rental place for having the thing for a limited time, making a copy essentially has you break that contract.. but that's my view on it). The distinction, otherwise, is rather vague.
So you are saying that it is possible to create an application that is able to play content on vista without going through the content protection measures to affirm its unprotected status?
Yes.
(Whether or not you can convince the various media companies to provide you with the ability to play their HD content on your potentially "insecure" player, OTOH, is a different matter.)
Are you seriously saying that Microsoft sold snake oil to the content producers?
No. It's acting exactly how it was designed to (and exactly the same way any equivalent appliance does). DRM-encumbered == "protected path". Non DRM-encumbered == "unprotected path". It is the responsibility of the player to determine which path is needed.
Here's the question, and answer it for a change: how do you play any content on Vista without clearing it with the kernel first?
You install a video or music player (say, VLC) and then open your media file in it. Complicated, I know, but with a little practice you should be able to handle it.
You keep asserting it can be done, so why don't you prove it for a change? Just saying 'it ain't so' is not going to cut it forever, you know.
What exactly do you want me to "prove" ? You can play HD, un-DRMed media in Vista without any restrictions - through an analogue VGA out and with audio via SPDIF. This is trivially demonstrable just by sitting in front of a Vista machine and doing it. My media centre does it every night.
In the meantime, you'll excuse me if I take a computer scientist with a long publishing history in cryptography a little more seriously than an anonymous Microsoft shill on a message board.
You'll have to excuse me if I take the specifications of the developer and actual, observed behaviour over the musings of an obviously biased third party who hasn't even used Vista.
Any media still goes through the new driver infrastructure, and since all drivers for Vista must implement policy controls, I ask you again: how do I play unprotected content on Vista without clearing it with the kernel first?
You do realise that you are blatantly contradicting Microsoft's own whitepaper on the subject and basic computer science, aren't you?
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Any media still goes through the new driver infrastructure, and since all drivers for Vista must implement policy controls, [...]
Clearly they must not. Unless you want to try and argue that all those video and sound cards physically incapable of providing a "protected path" currently being used with Vista are figments of their respective owner's imaginations.
[...] I ask you again: how do I play unprotected content on Vista without clearing it with the kernel first?
And I repeat (for about the fourth time): use non-DRM-encumbered media (and if you're particularly paranoid, a player application and hardware that doesn't support DRM).
If that doesn't answer your question, then you need to better explain what you mean by "clearing it with the kernel". (I have had to do some interpretation there, since "clearing it with the kernel" is, in and of itself, a nonsensical statement. The "kernel" doesn't "clear" anything. It does what the player asks it to do, which is to either use or not use the "protected path".)
You do realise that you are blatantly contradicting Microsoft's own whitepaper on the subject and basic computer science, aren't you?
Please quote the relevant parts of Microsoft's documentation where they state non-DRM-encumbered content must be subject to DRM restrictions.
Once you've done that, you can explain why the equivalent of a simple IF statement "contradicts basic computer science".
Ok, let's ask it concrete: how do I play HD-Audio and HD-Video over HDMI without involving the PVP-OPM and PUMA modules? Answer: I can't. Period. Even if the audio and video are unprotected content, I have to pass the Media Gateway Interface.
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Ok, let's ask it concrete: how do I play HD-Audio and HD-Video over HDMI without involving the PVP-OPM and PUMA modules? Answer: I can't. Period. Even if the audio and video are unprotected content, I have to pass the Media Gateway Interface.
I don't know how many times - or in how many different ways - I'll need to repeat this before it sinks in:
The playback of media that is not DRM-encumbered does not use the "protected paths" (unless, of course, your player application needlessly uses the "protected paths" - in which case you need to take it up with the software developer). This is how the system is designed to work and it is exactly how it does work. The activation and usage of the "protected paths" is wholely, solely, completely, utterly, without reservation, 100% and totally at the discretion of a) the developer of the player software and b) the content provider. Vista will not apply any DRM restrictions to any playback unless directed to by the player application, which should only do so when the content provider has flagged their media appropriately.
Vista will not apply DRM restrictions to unprotected media. Indeed, it won't even apply restrictions to DRM-encumbered media if the player application doesn't tell it to.
You didn't answer the question, now did you? Could it be because you are just plain lying? Naaaah...
I give up. Nothing is going to get you to do anything but repeat the assertions of Microsoft PR, so why bother? It is obvious you know nothing of the internals of the Vista media architecture, otherwise you could have given a straight answer instead of evasive bullshit.
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
It's funny hearing all of your legitimate complaints when just yesterday I read an article in "Fast Company" about how this hugely successful ad agency, Crispin+Porter+Bogusky (out of Miami and of Burger King and Cooper Mini fame) is going to make Microsoft "cool" and turn around their image...and by the way, crush Apple in the process.
From the sounds of it here, Microsoft and Crispin+Porter+Bogusky have their work cut out for them to get you guys to look at Microsoft in a different light...to believe Microsoft is the new "cool."
OTA is Over The Air. It is an explicit term that refers to the PAL/NTSC signals sent via traditional video broadcast or the over the airwaves ATSC signal.
;-) ) and people expect a certain level of service ability (like TIVO/DVD-R/VCR record time-shift...)- which was taken away just now on the ATSC feeds because someone insisted that they needed this ability, even though they really weren't entitled to it by the laws and past jurisprudence.
It does not cover for pay services such as Cable or Satellite which were delivered with DRM in place of sorts in many cases. My statement is applying to what was ORIGINALLY Television and what most people are used to. For those services, they didn't HAVE DRM (until now, that is...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas