Slashdot Mirror

Oh really? If others didn't call it Assist you might have a point. Pretty much EVERYONE else calls it Driver Assist; only Tesla is brash (and stupid) enough to call it "Autopilot".

but I certainly don't see any hydrogen cars.

LMGTFY

But really if you'd simply have read the article I link to, you'd know that and also know Toyota's hydrogen ramp-up plan which is clearly spelled out. I believe 30k hydrogen cars a year by 2030 as they slowly ramp up fuel cell production while better forms of electrolysis are worked out for the supply side.

I guess you prefer to be the anti-Tyrian though - you drink and remain ignorant.

This sounds like a publicity stunt

Are you joking??? Of course this is a publicity stunt. Toyota is in the business of manufacturing cars, not environmental cleansing. As generating hydrogen and electricity this way costs significantly higher than just buying them off the grid (electricity) or splitting water (hydrogen), it is obvious the only reason Toyota is doing it is for the PR reasons - especially in California.

Indeed, that's why Toyota isn't REALLY doing this. They contracted it out, like their transmissions and airbags, and in this case, they're using the power for their own logistics fleet which is going to have Hydrogen-powered trucks under Project Portal.

What, you expect them not to do publicity for their works? Why? They know the value of informing people, beating their own drum, and otherwise letting folks appreciate them. It's no different than what you do.

Toyota has no BEVs, and the longest range PHEV that they have has a whopping 11 miles range

You need to update your information. It's now 25 miles. Not that it's great, but it's still more than double your number.

Tesla sells actual electric cars that people get in a waiting list years in advance to buy.

That tells you that there's something seriously wrong with the scalability of their production. (If you want to know what the problem is, Tesla relies on selling ZEV credits to other automakers to keep from going bankrupt. But other automakers only need a certain number of ZEV credits each year to comply with CARB regulations. So Tesla has to be careful not to produce too many ZEVs lest they cause the price of ZEV credits to plummet due to oversupply.)

A couple years ago I'd have agreed with you, but a lot has changed.

Toyota unveiled a (admittedly very expensive) hydrogen-powered car that goes >300 miles on a charge and takes 5 min to refuel. Toyota, the largest auto manufacturer in the world, is probably not doing this as an empty gesture. They've announced they'll almost eliminate ICE cars from their lineup by 2050 and have yet to release an all-electric car (just plugin hybrids). They're working with Shell to provide fueling stations, of which there are >80 in Japan and 25 in CA right now, promising 160 in Japan within a couple years.

source: https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/f...

source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news...

Hydrogen can be produced via electrolysis of water or salt water from any source of electricity, including intermittent sources like renewables. The efficiency of electrolysis is very high today, approaching 90%.

source: http://www.h2fc-fair.com/hm14/...

It's not a perfect answer, but it's looking a lot less ridiculous than it did a few years ago.

Why do you continue to be ripped off by your carrier?

That's quite a leap. But you seem to be in good company pole vaulting over there, so perhaps I should explain why this is relevant...

You see, in the US different carriers tend to have semi-incompatible phone networks. Therefore, I can't just go buy any cellphone and expect it to work optimally with my carrier. For instance, if I want an S7, I need to go buy the version of the S7 that is customized to work on my carrier's network.

Does that mean I need to buy it from my carrier directly? Of course not. I believe I bought my last cellphone off of Amazon. But it does mean my carrier's "phone store" web page is a good place to go when I want to present a nice central list of "the different types of phones that work on their network" for the purposes of discussion.

I assure you it is also the case that if we were talking about cars, and I illustrated a point with Toyota's web page for a Corolla, that doesn't mean I go buy brand new Corollas directly from Toyota all the time either.

Boy, does Toyota have a video for you!

Also, just to be a pedant, Cheapest Toyota camry appears to be $23k - standard trim is closer to $33k and that is before taxes.

http://www.toyota.com/camry/

so if you were in a state of the US with EV discounts, a model 3 is definitely worth the price, considering it'd be closer to $26 or $27k with EV incentives.

NBA CBS, Toyota, Bears, Obama, etc. care! [grin] ;)

Let's check the math.

2014 Highlander 4WD Limited*: $41,960 18/24 mpg (21 averaged)
2014 Highlander Hybrid Limited AWD: $48,160 27/28 mpg (27.5 averaged)
Price difference: $6,200
Fuel cost per mile, $4 gallon: 19 cents vs 14.5
Savings per mile: 4.5 cents
Break Even: 138k miles
Time: 9.2 years.
Conclusion: Not worth it.
What if you're a 'city slicker'?
Cost per mile: 22 cents vs 15, diff 7
Break Even: 89k miles, 5.9 years. Worth it.

*Keeping the trim levels the same t

> How are they going to do that without cost controls? There is no way it will be that much cheaper to build ZEVs by 2020 that they are cost competitive with gas cars.

You are begging the question. California obviously has a set of forecasts that with the most optimistic assumptions do hit that target. ZEVs include things like hydrogen too which does not have a huge expensive battery but doesn't yet benefit from manufacturing economies of scale.

Meanwhile it looks like Toyota's Hydrogen system is also hybrid.

The same hybrid technology at the heart of the Prius but with hydrogen and fuel cell stack.

toyota rav4 ev is out and being sold in CA.

A collapse of GM would not magically create a bunch of small startups to fill the void. It would mostly just redistribute among the big players.

Actually, the collapse of GM, which is something that's been going on since the 1970s, has grown a lot of rival automobile businesses in the US. They're just owned by foreign companies like Toyota or Mercedes.

I don't know that completing the collapse of GM would create a bunch of start ups, but I do know that bailing GM out won't do that.

That's true, but has anyone bothered to do it yet? Cars have had electronic throttles for quite a few years now, and I haven't heard of that feature.

Toyota? See: Smart Stop Technology.

Nissan too. And Ford, Hyundai, BMW, etc....

Actually, after the Toyota scandal, I'd be surprised if it wasn't standard on all cars with electronic throttle.

SUV that weighs 5500 pounds will wear the roads approximately 10 times faster than a hybrid that weights 3000 pounds

I know it's popular here to want an immediate end to fossil fuel, and to move towards everybody using public transit but consider the following. My car has a curb weight of 2000 pounds (An old Saturn S series.), and gets 35-40 miles per gallon, plus a quart of oil every couple hundred miles. You're advocating increasing the gas taxes hurting me, but my car does less damage to the roads then even a new Prius. You're advocating increasing gas taxes, even though my car does very little to the roadway, and that seems unfair to me. I suppose I can't come up with a good solution if Oregon can't balance their budget, but it seems like if the new vehicle owners (which certainly have income, since they can afford a new car) are not paying the same amount of gas tax as everyone else, than I guess a surcharge to them is fair.
Ultimately, I would argue that selective taxing some cars more than others is just a bad idea anyway. The gas tax should just get factored into vehicle registration, since all vehicles share the roadway.

An engineer friend told me that road damage is proportional to the fourth power of the weight, so an SUV that weighs 5500 pounds will wear the roads approximately 10 times faster than a hybrid that weights 3000 pounds

I can tell you that you're flat-out wrong on that damage part. How do I know this? I work for a state DOT...

And.. ? You've conducted studies on the damage caused by cars with varying weights and published your peer-reviewed results where exactly? Or do you just work at a state DOT and take long lunch breaks?

An engineer friend told me that road damage is proportional to the fourth power of the weight, so an SUV that weighs 5500 pounds will wear the roads approximately 10 times faster than a hybrid that weights 3000 pounds

I can tell you that you're flat-out wrong on that damage part. How do I know this? I work for a state DOT...

Electric/hybrid vehicles should pay less per mile as they do less damage to the roads. An engineer friend told me that road damage is proportional to the fourth power of the weight, so an SUV that weighs 5500 pounds will wear the roads approximately 10 times faster than a hybrid that weights 3000 pounds. It's only fair and reasonable that the Escalade driver pays 10 times the gas taxes, assuming that lawmakers are being honest about what those taxes are used for. Yeah, I know; I had a hard time typing that last part with a straight face.

Toyota.com says that the 3rd Gen Prius starts at $24k, not $19k.

That is true, but the 3rd Gen Prius is not the same as the Prius C, which does have a list price of $18,950, according to Toyota: http://www.toyota.com/priusc/

There's not a single car sold in America that gets 50+ mpg, which does not mean that such cars don't exist or are impossible

3rd gen Prius gets 50 MPGe "combined". http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/specs.html

The plug in Prius gets 95/50.

What if Ford put out an advertisement saying "Are you afraid of your Toyota skidding off the road into a tree? Then come buy a Ford!"?

Depends on if the Toyotas have sticky throttles.

Even with tax supported subsidies, gas isn't cheap.

Gas shill Luddites would have us using a hundred year old technology instead of solving the technological problems that new technology always presents, all the while denying that there can be any negative consequences from any technology filling the coffers of right wing bloviating ignoramuses.

What's it worth to you to keep gas filled blow-hards redistributing money into the hands of cronies preparing the ground with lies and deceit for the next phony yellow cake war of liberation.

Donate your money to Al-Quaeda why don't you; Exxon Mobil, Shell, etc do with their royalty - and I do mean royalty - payments to Wahabi Arabia.

Or not.

If you can't afford the current tesla, wait a little longer; toyota will be using tesla battery technology to introduce an electric suv based on the toyota Rav model.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+tesla+build+rav4+ev+woodstock+ontario.htm

tesla has comitted to introducing a 30k+ model X suv by 2015.

http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx

This comment has not been approved by the Ameican Enterprise Institute or the Heritage Foundation, their employees or contractors.

No. WV is the US state of West Virginia. Although I hadn't heard they were dabbling in government-owned automotive companies.

WV still has an auto industry even if it isn't government-owned like GM. Toyota makes motors there.

Whether we like it or not, smartphone and app integration with cars is quite inevitable in near future. Apart from opening up a plethora of possibilities with apps, it is also about convenience (just a wild thought: sitting in your house, you plan a road trip with your friends using maps on your smartphone and later simply download them to your car's navigation system). One major example of such an integration is Toyota's Entune.

Calling a Volt a hybrid is the same as saying a Hydrogen/Electric car is a hybrid.

Yup. Toyota, in fact, calls its hydrogen fuel cell car the Toyota Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicle (FCHV).

Are you sure about that? http://www.toyota.com/prius-plug-in/

To give a specific example, Toyota claims 44 mpg city vs 40 mpg highway for Prius V.

No idea how reflective this is of real-world conditions, but I wouldn't be surprised at all. Regenerative braking can be surprisingly efficient; on the other hand, typical (65+) highway speeds are not the most optimal for most car engines.

Toyota says "the National Highway Transportation Administration (NHTSA) has found that almost 40% of all the fatalities on US highways are caused by driving off of the road." Hence the irritating tweets. Heh, it functions from 50 to 112 mph. Thoughtful of Toyota to be looking out for the wellbeing of DeathRace participants.

Are the lives this saves worth the extra added weight and complexity? It's a premium feature too. Not tweeting for those on a budget.

Lesse, a 2011 Prius has an MSRP of $23,520. I can't recall a power company *ever* sticking me with that kind of infrastructure fee, even spread over 60 months.

http://www.toyota.com/concept-vehicles/rav4ev.html

"The second-generation RAV4 EV demonstration vehicle represents an important milestone in Toyota’s unique collaboration project with Tesla."

A 25mpg sedan is going to probably cost more than a prius anyway, as it only gets 25mpg for a good reason. That is because it is heavy and made from more material generating more CO2 when it was produced.

The Prius is not particularly svelte at 3042 lb. The Prius uses a lot of "aluminium and ultra high-tensile steel". The majority of aluminum is refined using a toxic and energy-intensive process. While I'm no metallurgist, steel is made harder by working and/or by adding additional metals to the steel. Japanese cars have long been made from recycled American cars, which are (or more to the point, were) made with our mild steel. High-tensile steels contain additional metals which increase the toxicity of the manufacturing process through both primary and secondary effects (and so on...)

As well, a significant portion of the weight of the typical luxury car is actually asphalt installed for sound deadening and mass distribution, which for all its faults (huh huh) is probably significantly less energy-intensive than steel or batteries no matter how you measure it, unless you bring tensile strength into the equation.

A corolla might be better over the lifetime of the car in co2 terms vs a prius, but that 25mpg sedan won't. An electric car in fleet use might be even better, depends on source of that power.

This is true, but not for the reason you suggest. It's because relatively little of the energy of the average car is expended in its production, and the Prius is not so very much more car than other cars. It remains to be seen what its average lifetime will be like and where all the batteries are going to go, but so far the results are at least encouraging... for the most part. :)

Wasn't jail-breaking deemed legal? It's not like you're installing a cracked app or unlicensed theme.

Anyway, I'm sure Toyota wouldn't mind talking to you about it (if you're into social media).

Toyota produces a lot more hybrids than just the Prius, so either all of their hybrids are loss leaders or, more likely, they're not really losing money on hybrid sales at all.

When I say a hybrid gets lower MPG on the highway, I am going by the actual published MPG claims by the manufacturer, it isn't an opinion as I don't own a hybrid. For example, the Prius gets 51 city, and 48 highway, per Toyota.

Except that a quick google search suggests that, at least for Toyota, the batteries haven't needed to be replaced; people only talk about replacing them due to accidents. And several thousand is roughly two and a half. See here.

I drive a Matrix XR, so I was surprised to hear you say it didn't exist.

I said "I couldn't find", not "it doesn't exist". See Toyota's own site, for example.

And I get much better than 26/32 mpg.

Sorry, but we don't play "And I get..." in this thread. ;) We use standardized drive cycles for a reason.

As such, if you used the XRS numbers in your comparison, that would guarantee it's completely wrong.

Did you miss where I said I chose the most efficient Matrix model listed? Which obviously was not an XRS. It was the one just listed as "Matrix".

You are still incorrect, shifting into neutral should not kill ABS or power steering, while turning the vehicle off will kill both, at high speeds power steering isnt as much of an issue, but abs would still be useful to have. Toyota itself recommends depressing the brake, shifting to neutral, and if all else fails shutting power off, then immedently pulling the car over and turning the car off.

sources:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/Floor_mat_Owner_Letter_sample.pdf (instructs the user to shift to neutral and power the vehicle off)
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/resources/streaming/PDFs/cr_suddenunintended-acceleration_012910.pdf

and to the GP
Most cars have "rev limiters" which should kick in preventing any damage to the engine while running full throttle in neutral, this should prevent any rods from being thrown, which while not usually fatal (their usually angled up and away from the seating cabin v6/v8, or are vertical/diagonal and aimed out the side of the vehicle inline4/inline6 which would most likely not make it out of the motor compartment after loosing force penetrating the head) could cause alarm.

it depends on the exact hypothetical scenario. If were referring to the cases were the engine goes full throttle, and the brakes fail to function at all (being in a affected model such as a Prius) the correct coarse of action would be to try to shift into neutral and to to power off the car. If however you are in some other car you would need to specify what type of car, weather it was automatic or clutch, and weather it was drive-by-wire or manual throttle control, as well as weather it had disc brakes, drum brakes, etc. there are many variables. Sticking strictly to the reported scenarios with the models they were reported in, (assuming driver error isnt at fault, which it most likely is, but for this "hypothetical scenario" lets rule it out). What would YOU recommend a driver do in this case? (Stuck behind the wheel of a Prius at 60+Mph, with no brakes, and the motor going full throttle, regardless of pedal input?) Toyota itself recommends shifting into neutral, pulling over, and trying to turn the car off...

source:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/Floor_mat_Owner_Letter_sample.pdf (instructs the user to shift to neutral and power the vehicle off)
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/resources/streaming/PDFs/cr_suddenunintended-acceleration_012910.pdf

oh and also most cars have "rev limiters" which should kick in preventing any damage to the engine while running full throttle in neutral, but even so, what is more important your motor, or your safety (and in the event it does total the motor and is found to be a fault in the car, im fairly confident that this would net you a brand new car from the mfg provided the car wasn't ridiculously out of warranty of anything).

...is that they are frequently wrong.

cf. Toyota's FJ Cruiser, which gets 10% worse fuel economy with the manual transmission option vs. the automatic.

Yes, there is also the difference of the full-time 4WD on the manual vs. the part-time 4WD on the automatic, but people should bear "ceteris paribus" in mind before just blithely assuming that choosing the manual transmission option will improve fuel economy.

Right, I meant the "let's have the button fly in from the left and bounce around" animation. True vector animation doesn't have a replacement yet. The canvas tag could theoretically do it, but I've heard things about it's speed and it's real drawing, not moving vector objects around like Flash so it would be much much more difficult to do.

Animated SVG should be able to do some of it, but since static SVG often doesn't work well in browsers right now, the animated version would be a pipe dream to try to use.

Most animation I see on the web on people's websites is things sliding around, pointless eye candy that showing/hiding/moving images could do. Take this VW site. A quick look makes me think quite a bit could be done with HTML, but it would be really complicated. I understand using flash for that. A few months ago a friend showed me a car company's web site (someone smaller, not one of the biggest 4 or 5) that just had an amazing video of an exploding (as in exploded diagram) car that seamlessly transitioned to let you click around to different models and they swung in and out and... I have no idea how you could do it in HTML.

But compare that with Toyota and Honda's main pages. Both have pop-up lists of cars that you can hover over to get more links. Toyota did it all with HTML, Honda used Flash. Honda has a little more animation, but nothing too fancy. So many companies just use Flash to show a little slide show of clickable images, like Gamespot does.

For these simpler uses, Flash is no longer necessary. Flash has enough abilities that it (or something like it) will always have a place. But the "we need to use Flash here" bar is much higher than browsing many popular sites would have you believe.

Also:

• Price of a 737: $50,000,000 or more.
• Price of a Toyota Prius: $20,000 or more.

Even if the computers in the 737 cost 1,000 times as much per unit as those in the Prius, it's still cheaper per unit sold to fit 3 to the aircraft than it is to fit 3 to the car. Plus, of course, avionics failure is pretty much guaranteed to end in bad press for Boeing; many failure modes for the Prius's computers end up with the driver being blamed, and no bad press for Toyota (car accidents are so much more common than plane accidents that they're not automatically newsworthy).

Since the fall of the republic last year we have converted to a fascist state.

Beware if you are in business for yourself and you live in the United States.

You are now considered an enemy of the state because you compete against government corporations.

If you make a car, then chances are your going to be attacked in some way...probably through industrial espionage. Government owned businesses like the Government Motors corporation we have in the USA do not like competition.

Expect any part of your supply chain to be a target if it is in the USA for example: http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-consumer-safety-advisory-102572.aspx

Microsoft is a government sanctioned software monopoly. I suspect open source is going to have a _really_ rough time of it.

With this kind of climate, I think it is ripe for a patent attack on open source, leading to open source being banned or more likely regulated by the government.
(You must go through a government agency first before you create a open source project.)

-Hack

Not to call out Woz, but I'm not so sure he knows what he's talking about:

Wozniak said. "Well, I have many models of Prius that got recalled, but I have a new model that didn't get recalled.

As far as I can tell, no model of Prius was recalled. The list of recalled vehicles is in this release.

What's up with that?

Wrong, at least for Toyotas - See http://www.toyota.com/recall/pedal.html
Note:
"If unable to put the vehicle in Neutral, turn the engine OFF. This will not cause loss of steering or braking control, but the power assist to these systems will be lost.
If the vehicle is equipped with an Engine Start/Stop button, firmly and steadily push the button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine. Do NOT tap the Engine Start/Stop button."

This is a worthless story trying to bash electronics for a mechanical failure, and even the story admits that the electronics are not the problem in this specific case. What a load of hogwash. The article doesn't even mention or link to the real source of the problem and it fails to provide additional sources of information for people who might be affected. Someone's got to kick timothy in the ass for getting this dribble posted on the front page. At least post a story about a real electronics's failure causing serious problems such as the O2 sensor issue that the poster above mentioned, now that's a scary situation.

Our New Car

I just bought a 2010 Toyota Camry LE 2.5L I4 6-speed Automatic with EX (Upgraded Radio) and QA (Aluminum Wheels) as a first car for my wife and I as we have just moved across the country to a new city. This was the choice after a lot of researching and test driving of other vehicles and then eliminating them based on real cost of ownership, fuel efficiency, components used, safety ratings, the quality of built, the comfort of the ride, and the headaches or having to deal with the specific sales people (Honda, I'm looking at you!).

Just to make it clear that I'm not a Toyota fan boy and I am not a car person at all since don't find cars "sexy" and I was perfectly happy with my old 1994 Chrysler. This new car is not the perfect vehicle for us, it was just the best in the class for the price. There are some deficiencies in the car, such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings, the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine, cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk, and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds, a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it, and probably a bunch of other issues that we'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it.

This recall does not really trouble us since it is mentioned that the issue is rare, it only happens in cars sued for a while already, there is a environmental and humidity aspect to the problem with regards to condensation, and the cause is a gradual wearing down of a bushing that causes additional friction preventing the accelerator pedal from returning back to the home position that happens overtime and is noticeable with a pedal that starts becoming slow to return.

Our car was just manufactured in 2009-11 in Kentucky and I'll be checking the information below today on the weekend to see if our pedal is in the recall or not, most likely it it because it most likely has the CTS manufactured part. I'll call the dealer and arrange for a replacement in a few weeks while after they get a handle on all the people that are coming to them now. No rush on this. I've also instructed my wife on how to resolve this problem if it does occur to her when she's driving by hitting the breaks and shifting into neutral gear, then turning the ignition off when she's safely off the road.

Below is some real information about this recall.

Toyota.com - Latest News About Toyota's Safety Recall Campaign

1. Is my car safe to drive until a fix is issued?

The condition is rare and generally does not occur suddenly. It seems to occur when the pedal mechanism becomes worn and, in certain conditions, the accelerator pedal may become harder to depress, slower to return or, in the worst case, stuck in a partially depressed position.

3. What is the actual issue affecting accelerator pedals?

In rare instances, there is a possibility that the affected accelerator pedal may stick in a partially downward position or slowly return to the non-pressed position.

4. Is there actually a problem with the vehicle's compu

Well, I based that price quote on a 2008 vehicle, so no, it would not be entirely out of warranty (the powertrain would still be covered for another 20,000 miles or 2 to 3 years):

http://www.toyota.com/camry/warranty.html

Buy a model year that is 2 or 3 years into the design for that model (I'm not saying that clearly so here is an example: if a car design launched in 2004, try to buy one that was manufactured in 2007) and the warranty coverage will be less of a big deal, as they do actually correct defects and such.

I wildly disagree that 40,000 miles makes a vehicle heavily used, but that's, like, just my opinion, man.

You forgot to mention this

... I guess they mean the Toyota Landcruiser @ $65,000? Or the Yaris @ $12,500 ??
I guess the President's in for a surprise when he signs the bill @ 100.000 Toyota's and discovers it is the first :)