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Why not read the Ogg Vorbis FAQ about this?

And, sir, I must say that I find your claim in your User Bio that you earned three PhDs in three years highly unconvincing.

While your style differs, your tactics -- assuming the role of a PhD and letting blind trust lead Slashdotters on -- is akin to that of the dastardedly Professor Collins, a man who truly knows no shame. A man who has claimed flaws in numerous Open Source technologies when there were none there. A man who has gone so far as to inconvenience Monty himself, creator of those two paragons of Open Source, cdparanoia and Ogg Vorbis. It is men like you two -- dangerous men -- that threaten to crush Slashdot under the weight of false information.

q: Does Ogg Vorbis sound better than MP3?
a: Yes, definitely. Naturally, we invite you to judge this for yourself.

q: Why is Ogg Vorbis better than the other "New MP3" codecs that are available?
a: Vorbis sounds better. Vorbis is open, so you're free to use it on your favorite platform. Vorbis doesn't have intellectual property restrictions to get in the way. And Vorbis doesn't just try to sound better, it tries to do things fundamentally better in all the ways that it can.

Not entirely flamebait, but Ogg is inferior to MP3? What FAQ are you reading? According to this FAQ Ogg is "better" than MP3, and several blind tests would seem to confirm it.

Unless you're not talking about quality-by-bitrate, in which case the only argument for MP3s superiority is that it is widespread (devices, decoders, etc). If that's all it takes to qualify for superiority then let's just support Microsoft, McDonalds and Dodge Neons (those things suck ass) all the way!

Interesting...I never heard of ogg. I had to look it up. I'll have to give it a try and see how it compares. Thanks. ;-)

Ummm. . . I have to wonder how much you've been paying attention to the ogg project.

It's been stated several times by Monty that decoding an .ogg file has about the same complexity as decoding an .mp3

Perhaps you're basing this idea off the fact that for a long time the only decoder available needed a floating point unit. But this has since been fixed by the release of Tremor (an integer only ogg decoder).

But in any case your information is wrong, or at the very least out of date.

I have only used bladeenc. Is there much of a difference?

Use ogg vorbis instead.

Yes, Ogg supports variable bitrate. Take a look at this question in the Ogg Vorbis FAQ for more information.

Xiph provides their code under a bsd style license, because they want a maximum spread of the code and technology. And they don't mind commercial products being based on it or people making a fortune, because they want to establish an open standard. More details can be found in their FAQ

Also, Ogg supports streaming.

Untrue. As I wrote to Monty last month (he didn't reply):

• http://www.vorbis.com/faq.psp#stream says:

  What about streaming in Ogg Vorbis format?

  Streaming is an important component of Vorbis. The format has been designed from the ground-up to be easily streamable. The designers of Vorbis are working alongside the creators of Icecast streaming media software to make Icecast Vorbis-compatible. We are also working on player support for streaming Ogg files. Streaming Ogg files from the web will be supported by the player plugins at the 1.0 Vorbis release.

  That's all very noble, but I think what you meant to say was:

  "Streaming is an important component of Vorbis's design, but the software does not yet exist to let you operate an internet radio station in Vorbis format with the same level of functionality you are used to from Icecast/Shoutcast. There is also not yet any upgrade path that will allow you to convert your MP3-based internet radio station to a Vorbis-based one without forcing all of your users to upgrade their players at the exact same time. We hope that such software will exist some day, but until that time, you'd best stick with MP3 for streaming."

  I'm sure you weren't intentionally trying to be deceptive, so I thought I'd clarify.

Most of this info is from Vorbis

"...using Vorbis means your player and encoder choices aren't bound by licensing terms. Right now, you can only choose from a few encoders to create your MP3 files, because most companies won't or can't pay the licensing terms for encoders. Using Vorbis lets you choose from a wide variety of encoders."

A free open standard with not patent restrictions is always the better way to go.

For me its more a matter of principle.

Uhm, hate to disappoint everyone, but a fixed point Ogg Vorbis decoder is already available. Hardly news.

This isn't new information. We've known the MP3 codec was proprietary and yet most of us continued to use it. If you want a real alternative, then I suggest looking at Ogg Vorbis. It's free as in beer and speech. It's also better!

Please, don't support MP3 when you can support Ogg Vorbis and benefit everyone, while benefitting no single person or company.

Ogg Vorbis is a new audio compression format. It is roughly comparable to other formats used to store and play digital music, such as MP3, VQF, AAC, and other digital audio formats. It is different from these other formats because it is completely free, open, and unpatented.

Theora is the name of the open source multimedia project that will combine the Vorbis audio codec and the vp3 video codec from On2 Technologies into one package.

Tarkin is essentially a proof-of-concept wavelet-based codec. Its experimental nature means it will not be ready for general use for some time.

Since it is part of the Ogg project, Vorbis files have the extension .ogg.

Get CDex to encode!

You can fight this.

- Mirror copies of XMMS/Winamp and put them on your web site. Put them in your shared Gnutella directory. Keep some copies on CD-R's.

- Refuse to pay. Boycott any players that have paid this fee.

- Convert your collection to Ogg.

We have fought for our music to be free by supporting the P2P companies, we have fought for the record companies to eschew copy restrictions on their CD's, now we'll have to fight to keep the very format we use store our music.

--Jon

It's a free, open source alternative that's been out-performing mp3 for years now.

Many thanks to all of the Ogg Vorbis enthusiasts posting in this thread!

Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation

This is highly not recommended - because the encoding techniques are quite different this is likely to result in bad artifacts. If you really want high quality oggs you will unfortunately have to reencode from CD. Unfortunately this probably goes for any transcoding between lossy audio formats.

vorbis faq entry on the topic

windows
linux

windows
linux

Now if only there were an alternative.

Yes, and it is called Ogg Vorbis. It scares the sh~t out of the industry because it has no DRM and no legal restraints. The sound quality in the 1.0 release is amazing, especially at low bitrates.

..need to get the following tool, ASAP: CDex.

This format might tickle your fancy a bit more than WMA ever did. It sure as heck sounds better.

Previously the refurbished price for the 5GB iPod was at 299$US, and now all the 5GB iPods have dropped to this price.

With a price of 299$US, a 5GB hard disk and approximately 10 hours of use, you cannot go wrong. In addition to that, xpod has been created for use as a linux client for the ipod.

As of yet, support for Ogg Vorbis has not been created, but once it has, you will be sure to see it at http://www.ipodhacks.com

-David

Even better is EAC, or Exact Audio Copy. Alongside LAME, OGG Vorbis, or, for you lossless zealots, Monkey's Audio, you've got the most accurate copy of the CD that you can get.

Of course, if it's N'Sync, it won't really make a difference -- it's crap no matter which CD ripper you use.

In their infinite wisdom, they've decided that only Linux users get the privlidge of using Ogg. For any other platform, it has to be ported, for no good reason.

Score one for the good guys. I'm pleased to say that MP3 jukebox thingie was listed at the Vorbis site long before the good news hit. It couldn't happpen to a nicer fish. -Scott

I guess you are the geek. I have no idea what "fantasy character" OGG is named after (I believe you, it is just that you would have to be a geek to realize that it is a fantasy character).

Well, I'm geek enough to read Slashdot, which has mentioned in past articles that "Ogg Vorbis" has something to do with Terry Pratchett. I just looked up the FAQ at the Vorbis website, which pointed me to this page that confirms that Vorbis is from a character in one of his books, and Ogg is from the old game Netrek.

CDex supports Ogg Vorbis.

From the 3rd party software page at the Ogg Vorbis site:

"CDex is an open source, full-featured Windows app that rips audio CDs directly to Ogg Vorbis format."

And I also checked, it's really there.

--
niboan

What is there about Ogg that I don't know yet that would make me say, ``Yeah, that's way better than MP3?'' Is it technically better, somehow? Can I squeeze that 15 GB music collection into 1 GB with no noticable loss of sound quality, or something?

Look especially at http://www.vorbis.com/faq.psp, http://www.vorbis.com/download.psp and http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/!

Look especially at http://www.vorbis.com/faq.psp, http://www.vorbis.com/download.psp and http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/!

if they had used vorbis 1.0, which just came out, they'd have had better audio compression. and i'd still be on topic. ha.

Every time you play a CD, the machine automatically copies its tracks onto its built-in 20-gigabyte hard drive. It will then try to get album track information off the CD or, alternately, you can use the PC link to get titles off your favorite cddb-like site.

This new Sony machine will rip the CDs that I play. SO if I play one of the anti-ripping CDs in it will it rip it for me? Or will it not play it? The songs that it rips, it will get the albumn track info from a PC link. How soon will it be hacked? I would not be surprised if the PC link will be hacked before the release (if it is released at all).

MP3s are also copyrighted to Brandenburg, who has also created MP4. MP4 have better quality and are better than MP3s. Besides all the tighter restrictions on MP4s, why don't they use "the latest" in audio files?

Personally, I don't like mp3s, I have some, but not alot. I would prefer to rip my CDs to Ogg Vorbis if I rip them at all. The sony machine would look alot more appitizing if other music formats are used.

The 20 gig hard drive would be minimum that is factory installed. An updgrade to a 50 gig or greater would be ideal (Why not a 120 gig?) That way I won't have to worry about space. 20 gis just won't do it!

% du -h KSMP3s/
147M KSMP3s
% du -h KSOggs/
274M KSOggs

I not spending my hard earned dollars on any digital audio hardware until it supports Ogg Vorbis...

Way to go! - This belongs in the same ranks at the (Ogg) Vorbis Project.

Offer it in multiple different formats. Some Monkey's Audio for a lossless copy, some VBR MP3 encoded with LAME using the --r3mix tag, some Shorten lossless audio for those that prefer it, some OGG Vorbis for those that prefer the ultimate in open-source audio, and perhaps an AIFF. Makes sense to me.

What amount do you currently pay in MP3 liscensing, in order to stream SomaFM over the internet?

With all the threats and attacks to MP3 streaming by Fraunhofer, have you considered moving to streaming OGG Vorbis files?

As Winamp is now shipping with native support, this could be a good way of shaving down some of the fees regarding your business.

As open source Ogg Vorbis is released under the GPL/LGPL. However doesn't this prevent companies to integrate the sources into their software ?

This is wrong.

The spec is public domain-- it's not well documented, evidently, but the format itself is public domain.

The utilities are GPLed, so you have to distribute the source to anything that encompases them.

The libraries themselves, however, are under BSD.

See The Ogg Vorbis FAQ.

-Rob

I am a student with not too much money. I try to get freeware or Free (as in speech) software as much as possible (but of course you know how piracy is on university campuses for the commercial software that they use in the labs.)

The only pieces of software that I have paid money for (online) are the following:
- Turbo Navigator - US$10 - It is an excellent Norton Commander clone for win32- The Official Page is acting funny so check this Unofficial Page if you want.
- Query-Web - US$9.95 - A highly unique program that uses SQL in combination with HTML/XML to generate pages dynamically from MS Access databases. It is how Webattack is generated.

When I get into my job this summer I will have money again and probably pay for Trillian and donate to the Ogg Vorbis Project as well.

The things that these progs have in common are that I could have gotten it all legally for free anyway; There were no time limitations, nag screens or improved functionality promises for those who pay. I paid because the programmers did an excellent job of making a program that was useful to me and requested reasonable payment for it. Paying because the software will otherwise commit suicidce after 30 (90, whatever) days is not IMHO a good reason.

Going through my old credit card bills that's it for internet purchases of software but that does not include stuff like domain registration and buying computer equipment online. The things listed here are of course totally separate from the stuff bought in brick&mortar stores.

Part I - Introduction by Prof Richard Bornat (3.4Mb)
Part II - Copyright vs Community (Tape one) (25.3Mb)
Part II - Copyright vs Community (Tape two) (1.9Mb)
Part IV - Questions and answers (3.2Mb)

AIFF The AIFFs have been provided for those who wish to re-encode them. They are 32kHz stereo tracks, left track auditorium and background microphone, right track stage and roving microphones.

NB. They are *HUGE* and you'll need gzip to uncompress them.

Part I - Introduction by Prof Richard Bornat (65Mb)
Part II - Copyright vs Community (Tape one) (426Mb)
Part II - Copyright vs Community (Tape two) (148Mb)
Part IV - Questions and answers (236Mb)

copyright is there to guarantee that society has literature, art, and music, by making sure artists can earn money through creation.

Companies like the MPAA and RIAA are afraid of losing the distribution market, one which they have strong-walled for so long, but missed the Internet as a valid, financially lucrative, distribution medium. They missed the boat.

I for one, copy every single piece of software I get, and every single music and data cdrom I purchase, and store the originals away. If I break or lose the copy, I still have a master. Since I don't have a home stereo, my only way to play the music I've already purchased is to rip it to Ogg and play it on my computer. I don't share it with anyone, unless I have the band's permission (and I've gotten quite a few already).

The SSSCA and all of it's bastard children is just another way for them to control media, and put lethal companies like Microsoft in control, as the gatekeepers of this "security", inherent in the OS itself.

Next, you'll see OS' like Linux and BSD banned as "illegal", because you can factor out the cryptographic controls themselves.

"You must run an approved Microsoft operating system on your 'electronic data-sharing device' in order to connect to the Internet, or communicate with any other device."

Publishing cryptographic algorithms will soon be included here also.

Oh, and we might as well stop printing math in books too, and while we're at it, stop teaching kids about math, because then they can write their own algorithms.

Heck, why even send them to school. We don't want to be educating them to be pirates and infringing on copyrighted works, do we?

If they're educated, maybe they'll eventually learn that this is all ridiculous, and vote us out of office! We can't have that.

What good is learning for anyway, just sit inside the house and stare at your "Media Terminal", and let's just feed you all the information you'll need.

I see it coming now.. blecch.

Unlike with MP3, at the moment there is only one reference implementation of a Vorbis encoder. There are quite a few frontends, though. If you are in Windows, your best bet at the moment is to use the incredible but slightly clunky EAC, with the command line oggenc encoder available from the main site. The main alternative is CDex, but at the moment it only supports RC2 (not RC3). If you are in Linux, then you can use any ripping program you like as long as you use oggenc as the encoder.

What options to use?

You are using LAME --r3mix at the moment, so give '-q 5' a go (with RC3 on, specify a *quality* level rather than a *bitrate*). Quality 5 (out of 10) is nominally 160kpbs, and should be comparable or better than --r3mix in quality.

For more information and discussion, check out the Hydrogen Audio (Project Mayhem) forum. Many of the developers of various audio formats hang out there, as well as people organising listening tests.

Note that you need the latest Ogg release (RC3, download here) to play the streams; older versions didn't work for me. They seem to be using some features of Vorbis not available previously (e.g., the web page says, "I've decided to drop Radio 4 to a 32kHz samplerate and use the RC3 'quality' settings instead of enforcing an upper bitrate").

With RC3, things are working beautifully. Good to see such support for an open, free standard.

I'm glad to see this... MP3's have received so much attention, none of the other codecs haven't been in the news much. Sure, there's the random article comparing 4 or 5 codecs that no one's ever going to use, or the little articles saying that people hear an improvement in Ogg over MP3. But have you seen people using .ogg's? I do. Everything I've ripped is now in Ogg. Better quality, more flexibility, and a superior acoustic model.

I thought listening to the BBC over Ogg was cool. I remembered the first time I'd heard it over shortwave. Not to mention that it worked flawlessly. Then again, I'lve always got the latest plugin for my Winamp, and my XMMS. No annoying RealPlayer crap. No proprietary codecs. It works on my non-Windows boxes.

I sent a brief, yet eloquent note to the BBC webmaster when the original test completion was finished, and will probably send another encouraging this continued project. I would encourage the same from others.

Support your local hackers. (no, not crackers. hackers. Damn Hollywood crap.)

Even lame supports ogg coding through libogg.

merkac

Here is a link to some programs if looking for win version.
vorbis

oggdrop is as easy as it can be (right click for advanced menu)

This is why I copy all my CDs (legally) to my hard drive in MP3

Which program do you use to encode them? Has the publisher of the program paid the Thomson royalties for use of MP3 technology? This is why I copy all my CDs (legally) to my hard drive in Ogg format.

and use WinAmp across the board

It's spelled Winamp (small a), and the "Win" has nothing to do with the name of any Microsoft operating system product, just as the name "Windows" has nothing to do with DOS.