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extraordinary claims

You keep using that word in a very strange sense. What's your dataset for concluding that claims about a secret program which are completely consistent with information already in the public domain are extraordinary?

If the question is, "are financial institutions doing the end run around public or private regulation for the purpose of screwing people, engaging in fraud, and dodging (necessary) liability?" the answer is always yes.

If Mitt had been elected, this would be cheered on by the Whitehouse as good and normal capitalist activity and the FINRA would be disbanded.

Well, if Obama had been elected, he would have just ignored the law anyway. Just like he did with his own health care reforms.

And then taken the Fifth. Just like his IRS attack dog did.

Then the most transparent administration evah would secretly transfer all records to the CIA so they could avoid FOIA requests.

I guess it's a good damn thing Obama didn't get elected. Imagine those corrupt tyrants reading all your emails.

That could never happen in the US of A. There aren't that many USELESS FUCKING IDIOTS more than willing to be fooled over and over again, now are there?

I'm not sure how, but you managed to get this badly wrong.

The US, UK, France, Germany, and many other nations are not terrorist nations, but they do have terrorists in them among the population. If a government is opposed to terrorism, but it has 5,000 terrorists among a population of 80,000,000, it has a terrorist problem, but it isn't a terrorist nation. It will be the terrorists, among other things, that will be of interest to the intelligence agencies.

At Least 4,000 Suspected of Terrorism-Related Activity in Britain, MI5 Director Says
'Mumbai-style' terror attack on UK, France and Germany foiled
Raids foil plot to bring 7/7 terror to Germany
NSA director: Surveillance foiled 50 terror plots

National Security Agency Director Keith Alexander told a House committee Tuesday that more than 50 terror threats throughout the world have been disrupted with the assistance of two secret surveillance programs that were recently disclosed by former defense contractor Edward Snowden

I hope this is becoming clear.

You don't really seem to be making the connection here. You admit that there is going to be a future terrorist attack, but you think the United States is conducting intelligence operations in other nations just to be jerks? Can you think of any other reason? Maybe to try and prevent that future terrorist attack? Do you see how that works?

At Least 4,000 Suspected of Terrorism-Related Activity in Britain, MI5 Director Says
'Mumbai-style' terror attack on UK, France and Germany foiled
Raids foil plot to bring 7/7 terror to Germany
NSA director: Surveillance foiled 50 terror plots

National Security Agency Director Keith Alexander told a House committee Tuesday that more than 50 terror threats throughout the world have been disrupted with the assistance of two secret surveillance programs that were recently disclosed by former defense contractor Edward Snowden.

Do you realize that the UK, France, Germany, Russian, other European nations, China, and probably most other nations in the world conduct intelligence operations (spying) in and on other countries? Are you bitter about them too? Or just the US? If so, why?

Wow does this headline have things reversed.

Edward Snowden has been subjected to a month long attack campaign. This started with go after his girlfriend for being a pole dancer. It followed with other negative news stories and criticism by major politicians. From there there was a federal espionage indictment. He then had to flee the country and the USA has gone to extraordinary lengths putting pressure on countries to isolate him. The media has been mainly complicit. And after all that is approval rating has dropped a mere 5 points.

That's the story.

Submitter here and I'm afraid I'm going to have to outright disagree with you. I just don't see your events lining up with this recent drop in support. You're talking about months old efforts to discredit him that seemed to have little effect on his popularity. If you read the HuffPo article you'll see:

Much of the drop in support for Snowden's actions since the earlier poll appears to have taken place among Republicans, who were divided, 37 percent to 37 percent, on whether Snowden did the right thing in the previous poll, but in the latest poll said by a 44 percent to 29 percent margin that he did the wrong thing.

As fallout from his revelations ruin our foreign relations I think you'll see a lot of conservatives switch positions. This is simply a more plausible explanation. US as a power player in world politics and economics is simply higher on some people's agendas then their own damned privacy.

That's fine as far as it goes, but intelligence agencies aren't businesses. There are going to be strict limits on what they can and will divulge as part of the recruiting process regarding what countries or organizations they target. I would think that anyone seriously contemplating such employment would have a reasonable idea of what that is list going to look like ahead of time. The thing most likely to be missed by recruits would be intelligence operations involving friendly countries. But if you keep track of the news you should have some idea of that being of interest as well.

At Least 4,000 Suspected of Terrorism-Related Activity in Britain, MI5 Director Says
Boeing Called A Target Of French Spy Effort

The only way to win that game is not to play. If you think you have little privacy, those students (and all the lower ranks involved) will have none at all, after what happened with Snowden. And what is worse, they are in the perfect place to be escape goats or just false positives if anything happens.

The only way to win is to be in the higher ranks, where you are just untouchable.

2/3 of Americans want a congressional investigation, and a slight majority oppose having Snowden charged.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/06/19/poll-public-wants-congressional-hearings-on-nsa-surveillance/

Americans are largely split on the issue of whether they support the spy program, except for Democrats who simply can't bring themselves to criticize their Blessed Leader in any way.

Several US civil liberties organizations have already filed suit against the program. Anything like that happening in Europe? Didn't think so.

Don't underestimate people stupidity and greed. Pyramid destroyed at Peru.

Suggesting it will be met with screeches of "RACISM!"

Jihad Jane aka Colleen Renee LaRose

Gilles Le Guen

Joseph Jefferey Brice

And then, of course, there is the fact that white supremacists have committed 10x more acts of terror on US soil than anyone else in the last decade.

So, exactly what race are we going be "profiling" again?

Immigration laws? This president has deported more people than ANY other. The deportation numbers are an 'all time high', so I don't understand where you're getting the idea that the president isn't enforcing immigration laws: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/05/13/immigration-advocates-ask-obama-to-suspend-some-deportations/

All that is is evidence that previous presidents haven't enforced immigration laws either.

5 painful health-care lessons from Massachusetts - June 16, 2010
Massachusetts struggles to rein in health care costs - Apr 30, 2011

It’s a serious problem: Massachusetts boasts that 98 percent of its residents have health insurance, but the state is stricken by the highest health care costs in the country.

Danger ahead? Massachusetts health costs are rising – fast. - February 9, 2013
Massachusetts health care costs out of control as ObamaCare provision hits small business - Mar 4, 2013

Agreed. Since when did some old guys ignorant opinion become news for nerds, especially when such opinions flow almost 24/7 in all major newspaper opinion sections... old guys or indoctrinated young-uns lamenting the loss of hierarchical information flow?

Oh silly me, it is news for nerds since Washington Post stepped out of line. All part of the discredit the messenger(s) campaign. Carry on then...

Slashdot's format is basically that of a call-in talk show. It's all about getting you stirred up to post comments, which is what people actually come here to read.
Sort of like a talk show, some of the content is whatever the host digs up, add opinion for spice, and the rest is ranting callers.

I mean.. does one listen to Rush for the "news" or to listen to all the crazies out there?

Let me explain.

First he admits the benefits the Internet brings :-

I grant its astonishing capabilities: the instant access to vast amounts of information, the pleasures of YouTube and iTunes, the convenience of GPS and much more.

Then he explains why he thinks the Internet is bad :-

But the Internet’s benefits are relatively modest compared with previous transformative technologies, and it brings with it a terrifying danger: cyberwar. By cyberwarfare, I mean the capacity of groups — whether nations or not — to attack, disrupt and possibly destroy the institutions and networks that underpin everyday life. These would be power grids, pipelines, communication and financial systems, business record-keeping and supply-chain operations, railroads and airlines, databases of all types (from hospitals to government agencies). The list runs on. So much depends on the Internet that its vulnerability to sabotage invites doomsday visions of the breakdown of order and trust.

Take note of his key objection - he fears that essential utilities/services would be easily disrupted because they are connected to the Internet.

Point 1- Easy solution, disconnect these essential utilities/services from the Internet!
Point 2- If these essential utilities/services cannot be disconnected from the Internet without some loss of function, they would not have been able to enjoy the same function if the Internet never existed.

I do not blame the writer for this article, he is primarily an economics reporterand appears to have been taken in by the fearmongering flogged by all those who have an agenda to promote cyberwarfare capabilities. I do however blame the Washington Post for allowing such drivel to be posted under their name. They should have known better.

Agreed. Since when did some old guys ignorant opinion become news for nerds, especially when such opinions flow almost 24/7 in all major newspaper opinion sections... old guys or indoctrinated young-uns lamenting the loss of hierarchical information flow?

Oh silly me, it is news for nerds since Washington Post stepped out of line. All part of the discredit the messenger(s) campaign. Carry on then...

Google and Yahoo both pushed back hard against the NSA's programs.

According to the slide, only Microsoft caved before Yahoo and Google. That's not exactly confidence-inspiring.

Thing is with the MPAA etc the way they are, wouldn't it be risky to use your phone obtrusively while the movie is going on? They might think you're trying to record the movie: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/01/AR2007080102398.html

Have you missed the Washington Post PRISM 2 leaks just released?: http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/national/inner-workings-of-a-top-secret-spy-program/282/

It proves what Google and Facebook said all along.

When Google Microsoft and Facebook deny they gave *direct* access to the NSA, they were telling the truth. They gave direct access to the *FBI* who gave direct access to the NSA! See! Not a lie!

That's not what Google said. Google said "First, we have not joined any program that would give the U.S. government—or any other government—direct access to our servers. Indeed, the U.S. government does not have direct access or a “back door” to the information stored in our data centers."

Note that the statement was not limited to NSA spying.

That WP graphic you linked isn't inconsistent with Google's statements, though. The graphic implies, but does not state, that the data for the "tasking" is automatically extracted and returned to the FBI without any involvement by the company. If instead you assume that the tasking merely results in the delivery of a properly-formatted request to the company, then it fits. Google's statement does say that Google provides data to the company after its legal team reviews the request, and the Google Transparency report shows that Google does provide at least some data for 70% of requests. If we assume the legal staff reviews requests, pushing back on overly broad or otherwise inappropriate requests, then directs the collection of the data and sends it to the FBI, that process would match what's described, with the key addition of a human review process.

(Disclaimer: I work for Google, though I don't know anything about any of this stuff. I do, however, have pretty good reason to believe that Google is being truthful, mostly because Google's statements fit the company's culture and approach, and the theories about direct access or backdoors do not, and because I think this kind of program would be very hard to hide from Googlers... and I think the aforementioned culture would make it impossible to suppress if it were discovered.)

This story was in the Washington Post back in April.

The term "weapon of mass destruction" has a legal definition, which you can find here. The definition of a "destructive device" is here, which I'll quote parts of.

Relevant part of 18 USC 2332a:

(2) the term “weapon of mass destruction” means—
(A) any destructive device as defined in section 921 of this title;
(B) any weapon that is designed or intended to cause death or serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals, or their precursors;
(C) any weapon involving a biological agent, toxin, or vector (as those terms are defined in section 178 of this title); or
(D) any weapon that is designed to release radiation or radioactivity at a level dangerous to human life; and
(3) the term “property” includes all real and personal property.

Relevant part of 18 USC 921

(4) The term “destructive device” means—
(A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas—
(i) bomb,
(ii) grenade,
(iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces,
(iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce,
(v) mine, or
(vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses;
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and
(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.
The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes.

You're making the same mistake as many "SNOWDEN CAN NEVER GET A JOB" guys.

The thing is that USA is not the world and the secrets spilled were about american activities against the world - what the opinion inside USA is about the matter doesn't matter for the rest of the world all that much.

Assange not having committed anything inside USA shouldn't have anything to do with american populations opinion polls. It's as meaningful as committing polls in south Syria if they approve of Obama's social security politics.

for most of the world Snowden didn't commit treason - quite the opposite, since he revealed an on going crime that is being committed against most of the world(locally nsa is committing crimes all over the world - no matter if it is legal for them to do so from american perspective - this is why they're shitting their pants because the whole extradition system might grind to a total halt if countries hacked by nsa started asking extradition for the "legal" government sponsored hackers and people who committed conspiracy with them to do so).

The real shitstorm is that those NSA operatives have as much reason to be extradited as Assange and Snowden have.

$5000 ... is not nearly enough to cover being known as an evil traitor everyone in the world. His reputation is now destroyed and is essentially unemployable in any company or organization that cares about its own image.

I think you significantly overstate the support for Assange and his activities. Living in a bubble with do that to you.

Poll: Americans say WikiLeaks harmed public interest; most want Assange arrested - December 14, 2010

The American public is highly critical of the recent release of confidential U.S. diplomatic cables on the WikiLeaks Web site and would support the arrest of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange by U.S. authorities, a new Washington Post-ABC News poll finds.

Most of those polled - 68 percent - say the WikiLeaks' exposure of government documents about the State Department and U.S. diplomacy harms the public interest. Nearly as many - 59 percent - say the U.S. government should arrest Assange and charge him with a crime for releasing the diplomatic cables.

World opinion is more favorable, but also split.

The poll asks two questions:

On another subject, from what you've heard and read, do you think the release of classified documents about the State Department and U.S. diplomacy by WikiLeaks serves the public interest or harms the public interest?

Do you think the United States should try to arrest the founder of WikiLeaks, Julian Assange (Ah-SANGH), and charge him with a crime for releasing these documents, or do you think this is not a criminal matter?

Not blatantly misleading, but there is the distinct odor of bias in these questions, especially when asked one after the other.

The first question didn't directly ask what people thought, it asked them to conclude based on what the media presents. This is very different from an opinion poll. (From what *I've* heard and read, he is a criminal, but when I add experience, logic, and ethics I conclude that he is a hero.)

Then they present the second question in a leading manner by highlighting criminality several ways. "Arrest-Charge-Crime-or-Not-Crime - what do you think?" (A recent poll asked people if "Ben Ghazi" should be deported for his crimes, and many people said "yes, definitely!". It's easy to lead people into the position you want by framing it in the right way.)

Biasing the 1st question the other way might be something like:

Do you believe releasing the documents will make our country stronger?

An unbiased way to do the 2nd question might be something like:

Do you believe Julian Assange is a hero or a criminal?

I agree with the 1st reply-poster above: WaPo is a rag, and these polls hold little merit.

Perfect example of how lobbying works. In this case, it was multiple unions with Washington DC lobbying presences who stopped the construction industry from bringing in more foreign workers:

"Construction lobbyists fall short in push for more foreign workers
By Peter Wallsten, Friday, June 28, 8:27
Washington Post

The sprawling Senate immigration legislation now headed to the House is packed with provisions designed to help businesses hire foreign workers, whether for computer labs in Silicon Valley, cruise ships docked in Florida and other U.S. ports, or seafood-processing centers in Alaska.

Yet in the frenetic push by K Street to cram in as many new guest-worker visas as possible, lobbyists for one industry came up short: construction..."

$5000 ... is not nearly enough to cover being known as an evil traitor everyone in the world. His reputation is now destroyed and is essentially unemployable in any company or organization that cares about its own image.

I think you significantly overstate the support for Assange and his activities. Living in a bubble with do that to you.

Poll: Americans say WikiLeaks harmed public interest; most want Assange arrested - December 14, 2010

The American public is highly critical of the recent release of confidential U.S. diplomatic cables on the WikiLeaks Web site and would support the arrest of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange by U.S. authorities, a new Washington Post-ABC News poll finds.

Most of those polled - 68 percent - say the WikiLeaks' exposure of government documents about the State Department and U.S. diplomacy harms the public interest. Nearly as many - 59 percent - say the U.S. government should arrest Assange and charge him with a crime for releasing the diplomatic cables.

World opinion is more favorable, but also split.

The justification for H1-Bs always sounds like lying with statistics... No, you're not having a harder time finding a job, the wages are just stuck where they were a decade ago, and despite the huge industry growth, there aren't any more jobs available than before.

The workers are often paid âoehome-country wagesâ in America. âoeThatâ(TM)s as low as $8,000 a yearâ with housing allowances, he says. The employers own the visas â" so the workers canâ(TM)t bargain for wages, and if they lose their job they have to leave the country.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-05-20/business/35232356_1_aegis-communications-indian-workers-customer-service/2

And though slightly different than H1-Bs:

The number of IT jobs at large corporations is decreasing significantly, and the decline can be largely attributed to offshoring
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9225376/Offshoring_shrinks_number_of_IT_jobs_study_says_

Plus anyone really paranoid about it CAN go and check the source code to make sure for themselves. With propriety operating systems you do not have that luxury.

On a personal level, no. But many governments can, as well as some corporations.

Microsoft to Share Source Code With Governments

Stallman's position isn't a surprise. I expect him to advocate open source software over any proprietary software. He has for thirty plus years. Why would he change now? There is one thing he overlooks when he says:

'I don't think the US government should use operating systems made in China,' ... 'for the same reason that most governments shouldn't use operating systems made in the US

Stallman overlooks the fact that various foreign governments already have access to the Windows source.

Microsoft to Share Source Code With Governments

Microsoft Corp. announced this week it is making the programming code for its Office 2003 software suite available to government agencies around the globe, a move partly aimed at allowing them to inspect the product for flaws and security problems.

Though Microsoft usually guards such software coding tightly, the step is an extension of an initiative the company began in January 2003 giving about 60 governments access to the inner workings of the Windows operating system. This is the first time the software giant has shared the source code for Office, which includes the Word text processing, Excel spreadsheet, and PowerPoint presentation programs.

Microsoft Grants Governments Access to Windows

The world is becoming a strange place.

As Indian companies grow in the U.S., outsourcing comes home

India’s outsourcing giants — faced with rising wages at home — have looked for growth opportunities in the United States. But with Washington crimping visas for visiting Indian workers, some companies such as Aegis are slowly hiring workers in North America, where their largest corporate customers are based. In this evolution, outsourcing has come home.

Foxconn to speed up 'robot army' deployment; 20,000 robots already in its factories

In addition, Foxconn's CEO said the company is prepared to expand its manufacturing in the U.S., but the move will depend on "economic factors." The company already has factories in Indianapolis and Houston, and employs thousands of workers in the country, according to Gou. -- more

Thousands is a drop in the pond.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/20/foxconn_tenth_biggest_employer/

The world is becoming a strange place.

As Indian companies grow in the U.S., outsourcing comes home

India’s outsourcing giants — faced with rising wages at home — have looked for growth opportunities in the United States. But with Washington crimping visas for visiting Indian workers, some companies such as Aegis are slowly hiring workers in North America, where their largest corporate customers are based. In this evolution, outsourcing has come home.

Foxconn to speed up 'robot army' deployment; 20,000 robots already in its factories

In addition, Foxconn's CEO said the company is prepared to expand its manufacturing in the U.S., but the move will depend on "economic factors." The company already has factories in Indianapolis and Houston, and employs thousands of workers in the country, according to Gou. -- more

He had a pizza away from family/friends under virtual house arrest (confined to hotel) according Washington Post. He could take pride in having accomplished possibility the most important thing in his life. Yet lives under the fear of arrest or assassination.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russia-says-it-has-no-authority-to-expel-snowden/2013/06/24/325281f2-dcaf-11e2-bd83-e99e43c336ed_story.html

I am going to call Bullshit here! For starters I am not going to be hiding behind an anonymous coward. Secondly I don't hate Americans, I rather like Americans. I like the American ideals and how people want to do things. What I dislike are parts of the American government.

Now to get to the scoop. You don't have a threat of death for speaking out? Really, how about we ask this fellow:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/18/AR2006051802107.html

""Everyone knows that Mr. al-Masri was a mistaken victim of the rendition program. He is now a victim of the misuse of the state-secrets privilege." "

So the CIA did an oopsie, hurt this fellow, detained him, and tortured him. They did this by "accident" and when this guy asks for his rights the American government says, "oopsie no can do, state secret you know." Do you know which country does this? Oh yeah RUSSIA! While you might say at least this guy is alive, well how about those that are not alive? Do we hear their story?

Again I am not critiquing Americans and America as I have many American friends, have lived there and like it there. What I am critiquing is that there are parts of the American government that since 9/11 have gotten a blank cheque to do whatever they feel is right regardless of the law. America as an ideal stands for freedom, justice and being able to pursue without being persecuted. This is a good thing, and something that all humanity should strive for. But these other programs are just overreaching IMO.

The most innovative theater going these days is not "security theater,' but "civil rights theater." As demonstrated above, the dialog is ever more scintillating and persuasive. The plots ever more colorful. The fiction ever more developed. The distraction from the real world ever more enticing. But every once in a while, ugly reality blows up in your face, with the threat to do so again.

7 July 2005 London bombings
Major terror attack on scale of 7/7 foiled every year in UK, police reveal
At Least 4,000 Suspected of Terrorism-Related Activity in Britain, MI5 Director Says
MI5 warns al-Qaida regaining UK toehold after Arab spring
What do British Muslims think of the UK?

These results are from a poll of Muslim students:
– 33% claim that killing is justified if done to protect religion.
– 40 percent support the introduction of sharia for British Muslims.
– 33 percent support a worldwide Islamic caliphate based on sharia.

Well, enjoy the show. Don't worry if you miss today's performance, it will have a long run.

Because:
Officials from President Obama down have said they welcomed the opportunity to explain the importance of the programs...

But only to secret judges on secret courts.

Same story, different day. They are speaking publicly, but not everyone is listening, paying attention, or caring.

NSA director: Surveillance foiled 50 terror plots
FBI deputy director: NSA foiled NYC bombing plots
NSA director says surveillance foiled plot against Wall Street

Intelligence officials last week disclosed some details on two thwarted attacks - one targeting the New York subway system, one to bomb a Danish newspaper office that had published the cartoon depictions of the Prophet Mohammad. Alexander and Sean Joyce, deputy director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, offered additional details on two other foiled plots, including one targeting Wall Street.

Under questioning, Joyce said the NSA was able to identify an extremist in Yemen who was in touch with an individual in Kansas City, Mo. They were able to identify co-conspirators and thwart a plot to bomb the New York Stock Exchange.

Joyce also said a terrorist financier inside the U.S. was identified and arrested in October 2007, thanks to a phone record provided by the NSA. The individual was making phone calls to a known designated terrorist group overseas.

It doesn't matter how much they disclose if you don't listen. Maybe they should send the stories to Wikileaks, maybe then it would get people's attention.

Both of those specific instances were calls made overseas, and many people are ok with the NSA looking at international calls. So remind me again why they are watching all of our domestic calls? If they see a call to a foreign terrorist organization, they can use a good old fashioned court order to get the phone records from the domestic end of the call. No need for the NSA to collect all of the data.

There's also exactly zero evidence that those plots were even real.

Who is the US engaged in war with that he has given aid and comfort to?

The US is at war with al Qaida under the terms of Public Law 107-40 passed by the 107th Congress, which under well settled legal precedent is equivalent to a declaration of war. When Snowden exposed US national security secrets to the world, al Qaida wasn't wearing ear muffs. They found out too, so they are no doubt working on countermeasures and workarounds.

Private Manning is facing similar circumstances.

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) In General.--That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

Because:
Officials from President Obama down have said they welcomed the opportunity to explain the importance of the programs...

But only to secret judges on secret courts.

Same story, different day. They are speaking publicly, but not everyone is listening, paying attention, or caring.

NSA director: Surveillance foiled 50 terror plots
FBI deputy director: NSA foiled NYC bombing plots
NSA director says surveillance foiled plot against Wall Street

Intelligence officials last week disclosed some details on two thwarted attacks - one targeting the New York subway system, one to bomb a Danish newspaper office that had published the cartoon depictions of the Prophet Mohammad. Alexander and Sean Joyce, deputy director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, offered additional details on two other foiled plots, including one targeting Wall Street.

Under questioning, Joyce said the NSA was able to identify an extremist in Yemen who was in touch with an individual in Kansas City, Mo. They were able to identify co-conspirators and thwart a plot to bomb the New York Stock Exchange.

Joyce also said a terrorist financier inside the U.S. was identified and arrested in October 2007, thanks to a phone record provided by the NSA. The individual was making phone calls to a known designated terrorist group overseas.

It doesn't matter how much they disclose if you don't listen. Maybe they should send the stories to Wikileaks, maybe then it would get people's attention.

Both of those specific instances were calls made overseas, and many people are ok with the NSA looking at international calls. So remind me again why they are watching all of our domestic calls? If they see a call to a foreign terrorist organization, they can use a good old fashioned court order to get the phone records from the domestic end of the call. No need for the NSA to collect all of the data.

Because:
Officials from President Obama down have said they welcomed the opportunity to explain the importance of the programs...

But only to secret judges on secret courts.

Same story, different day. They are speaking publicly, but not everyone is listening, paying attention, or caring.

NSA director: Surveillance foiled 50 terror plots
FBI deputy director: NSA foiled NYC bombing plots
NSA director says surveillance foiled plot against Wall Street

Intelligence officials last week disclosed some details on two thwarted attacks - one targeting the New York subway system, one to bomb a Danish newspaper office that had published the cartoon depictions of the Prophet Mohammad. Alexander and Sean Joyce, deputy director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, offered additional details on two other foiled plots, including one targeting Wall Street.

Under questioning, Joyce said the NSA was able to identify an extremist in Yemen who was in touch with an individual in Kansas City, Mo. They were able to identify co-conspirators and thwart a plot to bomb the New York Stock Exchange.

Joyce also said a terrorist financier inside the U.S. was identified and arrested in October 2007, thanks to a phone record provided by the NSA. The individual was making phone calls to a known designated terrorist group overseas.

It doesn't matter how much they disclose if you don't listen. Maybe they should send the stories to Wikileaks, maybe then it would get people's attention.

With the trial of Private Manning underway, and Snowden now indicted, it looks like it will be a summer full of heated discussion.

Why does it matter if someone is a "us person"? Fuck off spying on me America.

I doubt "they" are spying on you so much as spying on the people around you that HM government are watching, concerned about, and which emerge from the population segment that will constitute a rapidly growing percentage of the population unless native Britons begin having children again.

Labour wanted mass immigration to make UK more multicultural, says former adviser
7 July 2005 London bombings
At Least 4,000 Suspected of Terrorism-Related Activity in Britain, MI5 Director Says - A few years old, but I doubt it has changed much.
MI5 warns al-Qaida regaining UK toehold after Arab spring
What do British Muslims think of the UK?
Muslim Gangs Enforce Sharia Law in London
2066: White Britons will be in the minority in UK
The British women converting to Islam
David Cameron studies plans for multi-faith Lords - ... where Muslim imams could sit alongside Anglican and Catholic bishops.

I suspect that the future Troubles will leave people pining for the old Troubles unless these portents change. Of course if you like goat, and prefer your women veiled, it may not be all bad. Of course singing Jerusalem will likely be considered "offensive" at some point.

Again, we're talking about the American Muslim community, which doesn't tolerate Wahhabism. I've been to dozens of mosques in a number of states and have yet to see any Wahhabism.

Maybe you just don't read or speak Arabic?

Ever heard of targeted killings of Americans using drones? http://www.cfr.org/counterterrorism/targeted-killings/p9627 The thing about helicopters is there is a pilot that you can shoot back at if your life is in jeopardy. And of course, the government never gets it wrong do they? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/06/AR2007090601386.html

Seems to be a bit of that nonsense going around lately. Obama did the same sort of thing nominating a telcom lobbyist as FCC chairman. .

Once might be construed as a good old boy political debt payback, but twice seems to suggest that the Telcom industry is making a concerted effort to get their minions into key regulatory positions.

This does not bode well for the consumer.

Obligatory onion: http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades,11056/

Pfft, newfag.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2003/07/20/AR2005032500385.html

Cover story or accurate?

Let's put it this way. Say we get a total theocrat in office at some point in the future. Are you comfortable with that administration having easy access to all of the information that the NSA has already hoovered?

Yes, because the system balances itself out to prevent any abuse by any potential theocra. High-level whistleblowers always come forward, not your high-school-dropout-IT-Jesus geek. In fact, during the Bush administration, a bunch of NSA employee whistleblowers did go public about ACTUAL abuses of power on the Trailblazer projec. Additionally, Justice Department officials were about to resign to force the Bush administration from enacting further abuses of power.

This illustrates the differences between ideologies: You libertarians don't want any monitoring. We liberals want limited monitoring.

I'd like to see any theocrat try running an executive branch of 2+ million people raised in a society based on liberal principles. These same people are employed at the NSA as well.

If you Slashdot 14-year-old libertarian nerds were actually capable of understanding systematic design, instead of herp-a-derping at every point, you'd know that the overall system architecture works as intended even with allowances for holes, because overcoming a system based on 2+ million people is very difficult.

Question to you: are you capable of fully understanding the limits of what MIGHT happen?

Judge Jackson put up with all kinds of crap during the antitrust trial that would have garnered normal people punishment for contempt of court. One of the more ridiculous examples was when Microsoft execs presented a forged video as evidence in the trial. Not only was the video doctored, it was doctored in a bad, amateurish manner, just like their software. Even at the time it was a puzzle why that went unpunished. Now we can see that was just standard operating procedures for M$.

Don't try to trivialize Sony's rootkit fiasco, it was not just a matter of a company releasing an unpopular product and then recanting.

What Sony did was possibly illegal. "Possibly" only because they were never convicted -- they settled all the lawsuits -- but in many states there are specific laws against covertly installing spyware (a lot of states have a very similar piece of legislation called "Consumer Protection Against Computer Spyware Act", here are the ones for Texas and California, for example).

Not to mention that the rootkit opened vulnerabilities in the systems where it was installed (more details on Wikipedia). The federal government didn't sue, but the Department of Homeland Security made very clear that what Sony did was unacceptable.

Going to the source document, we see what is referred to as rape consisted of:

Members of the Rendition Group follow a simple but standard procedure: Dressed head to toe in black, including masks, they blindfold and cut the clothes off their new captives, then administer an enema...

.

Oh... so administering an enema without consent is not rape now? Even when it's subsequent to a wrongful arrest.
How insightful... I wonder how the European Human Right court is so stupid to rule beyond reasonable doubt that

Macedonia "had been responsible for his torture and ill-treatment both in the country itself and after his transfer to the U.S. authorities in the context of an extra-judicial rendition."

Ah... the fact that he was tortured by the US authorities is not US fault.... it's Macedonia that's responsible... see?

Are you still saying that US used torture in only/exactly 3 cases of waterboarding by CIA? If so, please continue to enlighten us on the Abu-Ghraib matter: the last I know, it was US military that used a quite large variety of torture, rape included.

Other photos show interrogators sexually assaulting prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube, and a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts. Taguba has supported President Obama's decision not to release the photos, stating, "These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency."

Going to the source document, we see what is referred to as rape consisted of:

Members of the Rendition Group follow a simple but standard procedure: Dressed head to toe in black, including masks, they blindfold and cut the clothes off their new captives, then administer an enema...

Wikipedia is often best treated as a starting point, not an end point, when looking for information.

They were mining social services and phones, social services don't equal the internet k?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/12/heres-everything-we-know-about-prism-to-date/

Not a fan of it, but not a fan of fear mongering either.

This is one situation where saying an individual is lying about information allegedly sourced from the NSA (I believe someone confirmed it was authentic to the Washington Post, but nothing official) without proof to back you up just makes you look stupid. Attempting to discredit Snowden without providing an alternative explanation to what was going on that he objected so strongly to is a naked diplomatic move that isn't going to fly.