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"Bright Future Jobs, the Programmers Guild and WashTech."

Who, who, and who?

As of August 1999, the Programmers Guild had 400 members. Mighty important organization there, if you can't be bothered to offer membership numbers from this century. Which, to be fair, looks to be the last time their web page look was updated.

As far as I can tell, "Bright Future Jobs" is one person Donna Conroy.

WashTech is a union. No thanks.

I suspect that IBM, Infosys and Manpower won't even notice their "boycott."

If you're really interested, the best place to start is probably the Communications Workers of America (CWA). They represent more than 600,000 workers (many of whom are in IT and related disciplines) both directly and through WashTech, an independent group they helped tech workers in Washington State organize to advocate for them. Here's information on how to organize your workplace.

For many people the only way to settle these issues is through a trade association or union. When you have the power and collective funds of a large group you can afford lawyers. IT workers are quit often of a libertarian bent and against such things, but unions aren't the anachronism most people think they are. They have to operate far differently than they did in an industry based economy but have evolved with the times. Entry level and unskilled labor possibly has the most to gain, for example in the rising healthcare services industry, but technical workers still benefit greatly.

IBM has their own unit within the Communications Workers of America and a lot of their power in settling this issues came from the strength in numbers.
http://www.allianceibm.org/

IBM Alliance itself is part of Washtech.
http://www.washtech.org/

Disclaimer: I'm a systems analyst and since Aug 1st a VP of a CWA unit.

Check out http://www.washtech.org/ Technically it's a Washington State based union but you don't have to live in Washington State to join.

Sounds to me like they need a Union. I don't care how great a place is. When you get down to it, unless you have a Contract, they can keep changing things. It always amazes me - When top executives take jobs they always negotiate contracts for themselves - how much they get if they leave, stock options, benefits, pensions, car, housing - but when workers get together to do it everyone acts like they are doing something wrong! They should get in tough with CWA's http://www.washtech.org/.

Please join. At least get their newsletter. It's VERY informative. You don't have to give them money.

CS might not be a good career choice. It appears that CS, EE, R&D, etc. are becoming commodity jobs in the US. http://www.washtech.org/news/industry/display.php? ID_Content=5043 March 21, 2006 WashTech News Congress Considers Massive H-1b Visa Expansion, Gates Tells Congress It's Microsoft's Top Priority By Marcus Courtney Seattle-Congress is contemplating legislation that would allow up to 600,000 skilled professional guest workers to enter the U.S. in a single year. This would be the biggest one time expansion of the controversial H-1b visa program ito date. ...

Uh, any chance this has to do with the fact that Microsoft began expensing stock options - http://news.com.com/Microsoft+to+award+stock,+nix+ options/2100-1014_3-1023840.html

- or that employees are pissed about the review system or lack of pay increases over the last 3 years - http://www.washtech.org/news/industry/display.php? ID_Content=5041?

Until the late 90's, an engineer could work at Microsoft for 10-15 years and retire. That made them a lot more willing to tolerate constant death marches and ridiculously unrealistic product schedules. I suspect the current crop of engineers realized that weren't going to become billionaires anytime soon and weren't willing to make the same sacrifices. This is probably not the last we'll see of this sort of thing from Microsoft.

Upper management is certainly hard at work trying to figure out how to get Indian and Chinese developers working on Vienna.

For anyone whose interested... Some good starting points for more information include: IWW Electronic Communication Workers and Washington Alliance of Technology Workers (WashTec). I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone might have.

James - Computer Science student and union member

One of the bigwigs in the Windows org once made a mistake in a speach. He told the workers that each one of them had generated millions for the company... The employees then looked at each other and wondered why they weren't millionaires.

The fact is that IT companies have made millions and billions off of the work of their employees. IT employees have only been handed a small fraction of that money. Now, IT companies are now handing those same workers pink slips because some foreigner can supposedly do the work for a fraction of the cost.

IT workers do deserve an "inordinately" large paycheck since they have made their companies inordinate amounts of money. It's a slap in the face for those companies to turn around and fire those employees instead.

We should all join a union and get rid of this BS.

As discussed elsewhere EA sports has an exclusive deal with the NFL and the NFLPA. I expect them to allow more reasonable hours for their developers, because they will be able to turn out an inferior product without competition. Gamewatch, when it comes to pass, is a charming idea, but unions are coming to the IT field. Regretably mean unscrupulous businessmen are taking advantage of nice developers with scruples. And most developers have listened to RMS at some point in time and have some of that altruism in them. Which means they need an organization to defend them. Union is the right thing to do. Can you imagine an organized strike of IT workers?

• Maybe game coders should consider joining the AFL-CIO or the...
• 
  I read the new story at 22 posts, did this bit of research, made a post about free range chicken, $11.53 an hour, browsed a most of these posts which seem to be mostly rehash of arguements/comments from earlier this week and now find this post may be number 308. But this post is mouthful.

• Communications Workers IU560 Who We Are We are members of the Industrial Workers of the World who work in the electronic communications industry. Our organization is open to All workers engaged in telephone, telegraph, radio, television, satellite communication, and computer operation, including programming, and networking.
• IWW Join a union with branches in India, Bulgaria, Poland, and England? One that is calling for the 4 hour work week and the 4 hour work day?

• IWW US Locations California has locals in Los Angeles GMB, Sacramento, San Diego. San Francisco Bay Area GMB & IU 670, San Jose, Santa Barbara GMB, Sonoma County or Start Your Own IWW Branch. This section also includes information on how to recruit new members, how to hold and run successful meetings, and how to deal with sensitive issues, such as diversity and burnout.

• IWW COMPUTER WORKERS UK

  AFL-CIO
  

• Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, Communications Workers of America, Local 37083, AFL-CIO articles at A Voice for the Digital Workforc include Microsoft to double size of India facilities, Unions begin to struggle in Europe, Outsourcing to Arkansas, Job Numbers Mask Continuing Deindustrialization, Slowdown Forces Many to Wander for Work, Students Fight Copyright Hoarders, Welcome to the risk economy and An Industry in India Cheers Bush's Victory.

Washtech has a web form to send your feelings on this issue to your congresscritters and the relevant decision makers.

Here's the link. Registration required so you can send to the appropriate folks.

Consider though that tech management (I mean the ones at the top of the ladder) has made the tech workplace palatable to workers without unionization by providing good pay, good food, good benefits, fun toys and the like, thereby providing a disincentive to unionization. Why should we unionize, they might argue, when we have the things a union would fight for, and we don't have to have the union to go with it? Especially when if we did decide to unionize management would start saying that they couldn't afford all of the perqs they currently provide if they had to meet the nut of a union contract.

This attitude is starting to change, though, thanks to globalization, outsourcing, the new overtime laws, (lack of) job security and the like. Groups like Washtech are working to make high tech employees aware of the issues they face and the benefits of unionization.

Other IT organizations have also been lobbying this for awhile.

I sat with other Washtech members and tried to beat it in Jay Insley's head (democrat from Boeing, err Everet) that outsourcing was an area of concern, as well as H-1 and L-1 visas.

He tried to tell us that India would buy enough Boeing airplanes (he's head of some India Caucus or something other) and that H-1 visas were needed to help get unique talent like 7' tall Chinese basketball players.

After an hour of listening to us, something must have sunk in, because on NPR he did say he was pushing for a study.

Not the only congresscritter we lobbied, but one I personally shock the hand of.

But whichever effort finally broke the camel's back, I'm glad. Now if enough geeks get busy calling their reps and putting pressure, the study might come to something.

Otherwise, it's just a study. For those of us that already know that the job market is different,a study won't do much but let us know we're not the only ones in this mess. Myself, I now have a higher skilled admin job than I had before, but at less pay. Myself, I don't mind the competition as long as they would get paid as well as I do. Hard to compete with people paid less than half I do.

Other IT organizations have also been lobbying this for awhile.

I sat with other Washtech members and tried to beat it in Jay Insley's head (democrat from Boeing, err Everet) that outsourcing was an area of concern, as well as H-1 and L-1 visas.

He tried to tell us that India would buy enough Boeing airplanes (he's head of some India Caucus or something other) and that H-1 visas were needed to help get unique talent like 7' tall Chinese basketball players.

After an hour of listening to us, something must have sunk in, because on NPR he did say he was pushing for a study.

Not the only congresscritter we lobbied, but one I personally shock the hand of.

But whichever effort finally broke the camel's back, I'm glad. Now if enough geeks get busy calling their reps and putting pressure, the study might come to something.

Otherwise, it's just a study. For those of us that already know that the job market is different,a study won't do much but let us know we're not the only ones in this mess. Myself, I now have a higher skilled admin job than I had before, but at less pay. Myself, I don't mind the competition as long as they would get paid as well as I do. Hard to compete with people paid less than half I do.

From their "About" Page: "The Washington Alliance of Technology Workers is an organization of high-tech workers and allies joining together to provide an effective voice in the legislative and corporate arenas, and to advocate for improved benefits and workplace rights."

Link!

Unfortunately, such a strike could also affect me, as I live in Arizona, also served (so to speak) by Qwest...

The CWA is also trying to organize IT workers. The Techs Unite mailing list is very busy. They also have regular meetings that local IT workers go to in various cities.

I'm quite happy with this happening. I think the most important thing is that it be recognized that IT work is skilled, professional work, that both the CWA and the companies understand this. Some unions have handled this well like SAG, the actors union - I would say Robert DeNiro is highly skilled, although in a different manner than myself. I would not mind CWA rules that I have to be paid overtime after 40 hours, or be paid to be oncall and so forth however. A union would raise wages (as unions always do), lower overwork (overtime would be paid), lower unemployment (less overworked people means more jobs) and be a very good thing.

WashTech is the union for computer professionals.

• But...oh, yeah, that's right. IT is too good to be unionized.

WashTech.

We're not too good. It's just too early. It took industrial workers decades to organize. It'll happen.

Almost one in five information technology workers has lost a job or knows someone who lost a job after training a foreign worker, according to a new survey by the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers. The study is the first to quantify how widespread the practice is.

I followed the link to Yahoo, read the article, and said to myself, "I'd like to read more." So I went to the WashTech web site. And right there, at the top of their page...was a news article dated March 6, 2004. The "new survey" that Yahoo quotes isn't anywhere to be seen.

Maybe I'm just too skeptical--but if they can't post the study before they pitch the story to the news media, perhaps the "study" isn't as authoritative as they'd have us believe.

I think IT workers have to take anything that a trade association of 3000 companies says with a grain of salt. "We want more trained workers, trained at their, or someone else's, expense" is a constant, never changing mantra of these associations. There is ALWAYS a shortage of trained people in their eyes, there are ALWAYS a huge amount of high skilled jobs that are going unfilled (unfilled at the wages THEY want to offer). The ITAA was apoplectic in the late 1990s about the shortage of trained people there were for careers that would be around forever. And this is the line they continued to play for the past few years, saying people need to come in on H1-B visas with skills Americans don't have and so forth. Meanwhile, I know people here on H1-B visas who told me they never touched a computer before they stepped foot in the US.

So take all of this with a grain of salt. I would trust information from other IT people then some of the doo-doo that comes out of the AEA and ITAA. Check out Washtech.org or TechsUnite. If anything, they help IT workers communicate with one another about various things.

Anyhow, there's no one solution for each person in my mind. Whether you at your job or some other guy at another job would benefit from collective bargaining (e.g. joining a union) is a decision best made by the individual. Then there's the professional organizations like the Programmers Guild as well. But it's obvious to me that SOME type of professional organization is needed - I mean every other profession, except maybe McDonalds workers, have some type of professional organization, be it a union or more like the AMA/ADA/ABA. And our bosses sure as hell have Chamber of Commerce like guys in Washington DC making sure H1-Bs visa caps rise, or at least are not lowered and things like this. The ITAA is the main association that does this, Microsoft, Intel, IBM and so forth give them millions a year to mostly screw IT workers in Washington DC. Plus they have a PR department that gets news media articles written that said there was a massive shortage of IT workers in the late 1990's and H1-B visas needed to be raised. In fact that's a standard line they are paid to push like tobacco lobbyists who say smoking is not bad for you, these people are still saying there's a shortage or will be soon, they always say that, they're paid to say that.

Finally I should point out that there is a lot of corporate funding for organizations like the IEEE, USENIX (SAGE), ACM and so forth. In some respects it's kind of ridiculous, it would be like having HMO's pay for and to some extent control the AMA. But anyhow, if you're in these organizations it's good to talk to other people and educate and agitate about it, but there has been internal politic problems in the past, and while doing some of that is good, you should also keep in mind that there are avenues and organizations available to you outside of them, like the Programmers Guild and other organizations. And if you don't like any of them, and know others who are dissatisfied, you can always start your own organization, web site, whatever.

Indian Officials Claim Outsourcing is Good for United States
WashTech News

Jobless, Labor Activists Disagree

By D. David Beckman

Akhilesh Mishra is proud of his nation's accomplishments, especially within the past decade.

"India's economy has been growing at a very phenomenal rate," says Mishra who is the acting consul general of the Indian Consulate in San Francisco. Indeed, India's 6 percent growth-rate over the past three years is two to three times that of the sluggish U.S. economy. Mishra claims India's growth may hit 8 percent annually in the next few years, especially as many of the who's who of the world's multinational corporations rush to move work from their North American and European bases to India.

Mishra was one of three panelists at an Oct. 20 WSA program entitled, "Offshore Success Stories: Two Way Trade with India." Sangita Singh of Wipro Technologies and Offshore IT Services, Inc. Director Santosh Kolhatkar joined Mishra in the presentation, armed with recent studies designed to portray India as the world's newest superpower, particularly when it comes to outsourcing.

Slight, soft-spoken and avuncular, Mishra proudly touted a recent Merrill Lynch study which found that one out of every ten U.S. residents of Indian descent -- about 1.7 million, according to U.S. Census figures -- is a millionaire. Mishra says the numbers offer ample evidence of the productivity and capitalistic prowess of his countrymen.

Member companies of the Bellevue, Wash.-based WSA, formerly known as the Washington Software Alliance, appear to have whole-heartedly embraced the practice of hiring foreign workers, either by bringing the workers to the United States on guest visas, or by sending the work offshore to countries like India and China. The WSA claims a membership roster that totals over 1,100 members and counts among its membership IT flagships like Microsoft Corp., Oracle Corp., and IBM. The panel gave its presentation to a small audience that numbered just over 20 sitting shoulder-to-shoulder in a cramped Days Inn meeting room just outside Seattle on Interstate 90. They presented figures that they say support their contention that outsourcing IT work to India is good for the U.S. economy.

Many in the audience seemed surprised that the IT work U.S. companies are sending to India amounts to only a small amount of the work currently being outsourced to that country.

"On the West Coast of the U.S., we seem to hear IT, IT IT," says Mishra. "Yet it is only 3 percent of our GDP (gross domestic product).

Nonetheless, panel members say that with they expect that amount to grow to 30 percent within a few years.

Just outside the door, however, about a dozen rain-soaked protestors marched and chanted in a storm that at times raged to monsoon proportions. Many, like Terry Morgan, were veterans of high tech, now unemployed.

"The reason why there are so many of us unemployed is cost," says Morgan, 45, a software engineer of 20 years whose resume lists companies such as Eastman Kodak Co., Boeing Co., Microsoft and RealNetworks, Inc. "You can't beat cheap labor."

Morgan says the reason he and other unemployed IT workers cannot find work is that companies can hire foreign tech workers for about half of what they pay U.S. workers. That seems to be one point on which Morgan and panel members can fully agree.

Panel members sometimes cited figures from an August McKinsey Global Institute report. The 18-page report entitled, "Offshoring: Is It a Win-Win Game?" says the economic benefits of "offshoring" are substantial. "As is commonly realized, the prime motivation of offshoring is that it reduces labor costs."

The report cites an example of a software developer who costs $60 an hour in the U.S. costs only $6 an hour in India.

Proponents of offshoring are fond of making the claim that those in countries such as the United States who

October 27, 2003

Silicon Valley Tech Worker Challenges Beltway Politicians
WashTech News

By Jeff Nachtigal

In many respects Natasha Humphries is the model Silicon Valley high-tech worker: bright, articulate and highly motivated. And now unemployed after her job was outsourced to India.

But her willingness to testify before a House Small Business Committee hearing last week about high-tech jobs being offshored definitely does not show up in any company handbook.

In Washington D.C., Humphries spoke passionately about the issues she and her fellow workers now face since their jobs were sent to India, and how this short-sighted perspective of companies trying to save a dollar today will have lasting negative impacts on the industry in the future.

"It's corporate profiteering at its worst, and that's all it is," Humphries said.

"One reason I was so interested in testifying is that while corporations have their lobbyists, to have a private citizen tell their anecdotal experiences about what is happening from an insider's point of view makes it really hard for them to refute your testimony," she said.

Humphries was a senior quality assurance engineer at Palm, Inc. for three years until her position was offshored to India in August.

"A lot of people are afraid to come forward because of blacklisting, which is a very real fear for a lot of people, and is one of the reasons Silicon Valley needs a labor union of some sort," she said.

For Humphries, the choice to speak out wasn't hard.

"If it's be blacklisted versus one or two years of unemployment, what's the difference? Give me the dice, I'll throw them!"

Humphries said Palm offices in Andover, Boston and Seattle have been closed and that at least half of Palm's U.S. positions have been offshored. A study by Forrester Research Inc. estimated that U.S. employers will move about 3.3 million white-collar service jobs and $136 billion in wages overseas in the next 15 years, up from $4 billion in 2000.

Humphries, 30, doesn't shy away from challenges and willingly admits she has an assertive personality and tends to challenge the status quo - beginning with her managers at Palm, Inc. who, in her words, "answered evasively, dodged the questions, threw out fictitious numbers, and tried to blow me off," when she asked what she needed to do to save her job.

Despite her tenacity, Humphries is also a bit of a Pollyanna in that she has always worked hard and stuck to the corporate game plan, hoping that as long as she worked hard she would keep her job.

After graduating from Stanford she worked for Avistar, Infotech and Apple before landing the position at Palm, where she tested Palm OS software applications, Palm's calculator and wireless applications. At Palm, Humphries worked hard, often staying late and working weekends even though her salary had not gone up in her three years with the company. She said she put any thought about a salary merit increase out of mind until the company returned to profitability.

And even when the company made extensive plans to offshore jobs and she knew she was likely to be cut, Humphries willingly went to Bangalore, India, in December 2002 to train Indian software quality assurance engineers, hoping there might yet be a place for her if she stayed loyal to Palm.

She admitted at the hearing in Washington D.C. that, "I may have engineered my way out of a job."

It happened fast, but she wasn't surprised when the ax finally fell.

"We were told on Monday at 3:30pm of a layoff, and notified on Wednesday that we were terminated."

"How did I get duped?" Humphries said. "I was aware this (layoff) was a possibility, but I miscalculated the time horizon, I thought that the India team would take at least three years to perform my job as well as I do... I thought they would still need people like me at headquarters. But they

I know I will take a karma hit for this, but so be it. I find it funny that /. will post articles like this, but they won't post articles about all the unemployed high tech workers, protests at the offshoring conferences, and the results of the protests.
The news doesn't tell the entire story. For instance a lot of these people are maintaining their riches by laying off programmers and transfering the jobs offshore.
Let's say a programmer in America makes on average $50k. Well, they only have to pay someone in India $5k, and they are doing this. Then they use the now extra $45k to artificially inflate profit making it look like things are recovering.
Conferences are being held around the country promoting the offshoring American jobs--not just the tech industry. Call centers (like AT&T) and acounting is being opffshored to India. Theoretically, only jobs that require a physical presence to do something are safe--like service industry jobs which don't pay much.
We need to level the playing field by making the benefits of offshoring nonexistent so that American workers will be able to compete. We need to make it public which companies are offshoring their jobs because they don't want you to know because it is a BIG public relations nightmare! Sign up for the email from this site. They provide a lot of information about the fight to save American middle class jobs! We need to organise and fight back before it's too late, and there are not tech jobs, or middle class jobs, in America!

Who cares about this! All your jobs will be shipped overseas to India anyways unless you do something about it! Get involved! Goto WashTech and sign up for the email!

CWA - Communication workers of America and Washtech - Washington Alliance for IT workers.

Maybe its time to Unionize.

This survey shows everything that's wrong with the IT profession. Salary surveys should be done by IT workers for IT workers. What the hell is Sun doing in this survey? Sun is a member of the ITAA, an employer association which is an advocate of off-shoring IT; bringing in hundreds of thousands of people with H1-B and L-1 visas every year, despite the downturn; lobbies in Congress for laws to strip IT workers of overtime pay, or to screw over independent contractors, and so on and so forth. Considering this, it seems Sun has economic interests directly opposite of IT workers.

Sun's direct involvement means this survey is a crock of doo-doo. And organizations like SAGE, IEEE and so forth are in the same boat with a load of corporate sponsorship. Do the employers like Sun, IBM and Intel let the workers run their associations like the ITAA? Hell no. Do real professionals, like doctors and lawyers let other people run their own professional associations? No again. Yet companies who belong to associations doing PR and lobbying day and night to offshore jobs, bring in cheaper, foreign workers in droves, kill overtime provisions and do virtually everything to make us work longer hours for less seem to be perfectly accepted in cooperation with SAGE, the IEEE and so forth. This is because SAGE, IEEE and other such organizations are not professional associations like other professions have - no profession is so stupid to let that happen. That's why they go to Congress and have laws passed and done awway with that have the effect on lowering our pay and there is virtually no association on the other side that fights that. Despite the fact that every other group in the world, from lawyers to doctors to auto workers to retirees to everyone has people in Congress fighting for their economic interests.

Dump these phony, employer-controlled so-called professional associations like SAGE and the IEEE and look for some real ones like these:

You can choose between these two, depending on whether you think the solution to the problem is a union or a professional association.

GAO Green Lights Offshoring Study
WashTech News

Washington DC -- The General Accounting Office agreed on Tuesday to study the trend of U.S. companies exporting engineering and technical jobs overseas to cheaper labor markets. Congressmen Jay Inslee (D-WA) and Adam Smith (D-WA) wrote a letter to the GAO Inspector General on July 17th requesting such a study.

"I'm extremely pleased that the GAO agrees that this is a critically important issue that should be thoroughly examined," said Rep. Smith. "I'm very eager to see the study's findings and use them to improve public policy."

Rep. Inslee told WashTech in a written statement: "Clearly, an increasing number of American firms are outsourcing some of their services. Congress needs an accurate assessment of the facts surrounding this practice in order to find viable policy solutions that will enhance competitiveness of American workers and help keep high-tech jobs in our country. I am encouraged that the GAO is willing to take on this project, and I look forward to their recommendations."

This study comes after several months of lobbying by WashTech, and the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA) calling on members of Congress to request that the GAO to investigate the issue. As part of the lobbying campaign, which began in January of this year, WashTech generated more than 13,000 email and fax letters to congressional representatives from more than 30 states.

The issue of offshore outsourcing of engineering and information technology jobs has also generated increasing U.S. and international news coverage in recent months.

The study will begin looking at this trend, and analyze the impacts on technical and aerospace employees. It will also review the treatment of IT outsourcing in U.S. trade policy and offer recommendations for enhancing U.S. competitiveness in the global marketplace.

IMHO, it's a national security issue. We don't need to be exporting our expertise, we need home grown expertise that will stay in America.

Big buisness uses H1-B and L-1 visas to hire employees that they can pay well under the going rate for U.S. citizens. Small buisness doesn't have the overseas connections to hire folks with this so it only serves to give big buisness even more power over the start-ups.

Additional information on H1-B and L-1 visas:

Washtech.org

L1s Slip Past H-1B Curbs

Re: H1B and L1 visa influence US unemployment

After H1-B visa, L1 now bytes IT

Companies which have code written outside of the U.S. should pay duty or tariffs on each license they sell just like vendors of manufactured items do. That would slow down the Great Tech Job Exodus.

Unionze. Check out WashTech or Techs Unite

In Washington, the magic cut-off was $27.63/hour, so that is what my last job paid.

What to do about it? We've gone to the state legislature in Olympia, but so far haven't _yet_ mobilized enough people to oppose the Washington Software Alliance lobbying. Heh - employers say that employees don't need a union but then they join things like the WSA and the Chamber of Commerce to have more power collectively. What is good for the goose is good for the gander I say.

I've read my history and know that the '40 hour work week' only came about because enough employees demanded it. Companies that reduced their work week below that often have seen increases in productivity (Kelloggs found this out - page 3 of this pdf.

But then now the work week is increasing as companies try to squeeze blood from a stone. I know that if I refuse to do overtime by myself, I will be replaced. What else to do but to demand better conditions as a group?

As it has been pointed out in this discussion, we don't have much power to refuse such demands by ourselves.

Now if we refused as a group, don't you think we'd have a better chance?

They have an interesting piece on globalization right now. And they are trying to do something about it.

Couldn't agree more. Ever read "The Overworked American" by Juliet Schor? Seems like we've had incredible productivity increases since the early 50s but our work week has only increased - especially since the 80s. Wtf?

Employers take what they can get. We're not given the choice. We have to take it.

• executives trying to decide whether or not to save money by outsourcing workload overseas
• Legislators looking to justify the continued availability of H-1B visas
• College students trying to decide on a career path

In all this discussion, no one has noted that there ARE a few unions representing High-Tech workers. In particular:

1. The Washington Alliance of Technology Workers,
http://www.washtech.org is the union for "PermaTemps" at Microsoft and other companies. They are mostly oriented towards workers in the Seattle, WA area. They were involved in a bitter fight to organize Amazon.

2. The Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace, http://www.speea.org represents 24000 Aerospace Engineers at Boeing.
BTW, they are currently organizing Boeing workers in St. Louis.

These are both projects of the Communications Workers of America (CWA). Some of the CWA leadership actually have a clue that if they tech workers are going to organize, their unions aren't going to look like the Teamsters or UAW.

Techs Unite
WashTech

Why are Americans in debt more than they were thirty years ago and not saving money? Household debt has gone from 65% of post-tax income to over 100% in the past thirty years and saving rates have dropped. Well, one reason is that the average inflation-adjusted hourly wage is below what it was thirty years ago. You can see the raw data at the government's BLS web site, or check out LBO's nice graphs of the same data. This is a very important piece of economic information, but one rarely, if ever, mentioned in the news. The fact that Americans are making less money per hour (inflation-adjusted) than they were thirty years ago sheds a lot of light on why savings are down and debt is up - they are making less money and thus have less to save and thus by food and clothes and so forth on credit cards.

Some people, for whatever reasons, would rather stick to their own conclusions about how people are indulging themselves too much and this will cause them repercussions. This seems to be a tenet of Christian thought, and since Christianity dominates American society so heavily perhaps that's why people prefer their "faith" view over the scientific and logical conclusions one would draw from economic data. Or perhaps, as I said before, they and their circle are all white collar Java professionals and they apply what happened to them as what's happening to the Gen X janitor who sweeps up late at night in their offices, however falsely. Even in this case I'd disagree, as Microsoft, IBM, Intel etc. bankrolled the ITAA to modify laws such as the H1-B cap, FLSA overtime provisions, section 1706 IRS tax codes etc., in an attempt to lower IT wages. An attempt which was largely successful. Of course, that just played a part in lower IT wages and higher unemployment, the bigger tidal wave of the economy helped lower wages as well. But again, to hear some people talk about it, it sounds like "the economy did it" is like we're all farmers and our crops were flooded and people say "it was just the weather". The economic system is not some foreign, alien force we have no control of, like the weather. The millions the ITAA spent on lobbying efforts, plus larger scale forces manipulating the economy are what caused this. All I hear here are a bunch of people whose solutions to everything is to tighten their belts (and increase their skill level so they'll be more valuable specialists). It sounds a lot more meek and submissive than what the dock workers in San Francisco have been doing - men who have more secure jobs and are paid more than a lot of IT techies, and who probably used to beat these meek little techies asses and could this day still probably beat the meek, submissive techies asses. Quite often reading comments here, I get disgusted by the attitude of many of the posters. The important thing is, those of us who think as we (or I) do have to band together and push things forward, as these toadies never will. Efforts are already being made - Washtech/CWA, the Programmers Guild and so forth, they just need more people on board to start reaching critical mass. We can't wait around for the pansies, we have to get out there and get things moving ourselves.

But then, if you live in Seattle with top o' the nation unemployment, what choice would you have?

There are companies like Real Networks who are laying people off and enforcing overtime on the rest.

Employers get away with what they can, for as long as they can. These days, why not over-work your employees and then get more? (I'm describing their thinking - I fully feel this is insane given the need to maintain and continue projects).

So then you have the construction worker. Over 8 hours? Time and a half. Over 10? Double-time. Work on Sunday? Double-time. There is still overtime in the construction industry, but the employer has an economic incentive to use it wisely, if at all.

But then, here in Washington, the Washington Software Alliance gets laws past to exempt tech workers from overtime!

Result - no disincentive on the part of employers to not use overtime.

If construction workers are smart enough to read the writing on the wall, how come tech workers aren't?
Those employers didn't change their overtime policies because they wanted to - the workers forced the employers to sign a contract.

So why don't tech workers do the same?

I just made a similar reply to another post - but it is still relevant to say this here.

Another industry with short-term projects is construction. These guys work themselves out of a job just like we do. The industry also has a cut-throat bidding process.

But there are some big differences on training! Really - contrast the fate of most geeks to a union construction worker, like an electrician. Geeks (most) pay for college. Union construction worker - employer paid apprenticeship program of class-room instruction and OJT.

So how many geeks start out their work careers paying off debt? How many construction workers have debt starting out?

Geeks have to continually upgrade skills to avoid being obsolete. You can check out the responses to this story as to what are chances are.
Construction workers have to upgrade their skills as well - whether mandated safety programs or for new tech. Union construction workers have zero out of pocket costs for this, paid from dues and from employer contributions.

That's why I'm a washtech member. Here's our training program - geeks training geeks.

Why do construction workers have company-paid training? The same reason microsoft forces dell to sell microsoft. The same reason the Washington Software alliance lobbies to kill premium overtime pay for tech workers and bring in more h1-b visas at lower than market pay. These folks organize and use their strength. Why don't we?

Another industry with short-term projects is construction. These guys work themselves out of a job just like we do.

But there are some big differences on training!
Really - contrast the fate of most geeks to a union construction worker, like an electrician.
Geeks (most) pay for college. Union construction worker - employer paid apprenticeship program of class-room instruction and OJT.

So how many geeks start out their work careers paying off debt? How many construction workers have debt starting out?

Geeks have to continually upgrade skills to avoid being obsolete. You can check out the responses to this story as to what are chances are.
Construction workers have to upgrade their skills as well - whether mandated safety programs or for new tech. Union construction workers have zero out of pocket costs for this, paid from dues and from employer contributions.

That's why I'm a washtech member. Here's our training program - geeks training geeks.

Disclaimer: I'm a Washtech member.

As a member-run union of tech workers, we found out what our members wanted. Training was one of those things that are members wanted and that we could accomplish in the near-term.

So we do have geeks training geeks. Classes happen if folks want them and if we can find a qualified teacher. Qualified has come to mean, 'knows his/her stuff and can communicate it'. We have hired some non-members on occasion, too. They're damn cheap, and unemployed members can delay payment for 6 months.

But really - contrast the fate of most geeks to a union construction worker, like an electrician.
Geeks (most) pay for college. Union construction worker - employer paid apprenticeship program of class-room instruction and OJT.
So how many geeks start out their work careers paying off debt? How many construction workers have debt starting out?
Geeks have to continually upgrade skills to avoid being obsolete. You can check out the responses to this story as to what are chances are. Construction workers have to upgrade their skills as well - whether mandated safety programs or for new tech. Union construction workers have zero out of pocket costs for this, paid from dues and from employer contributions.

oh yeah, us geeks are sooooo smart.

If you live in a state that does not recognize your rights, you're left with what's in the contract. Of course, many people aren't confident enough to individually bargain such details of their contract, and many companies have a strict policy of one policy for all employees. What to do in that case? Well, your options are to find another employer or to collectively bargain a contract, or to collectively try to get a law passed to recognize your rights.

How does one collectively bargain a contract or collectively work to get a law passed? Well, you get together with coworkers and other in the same industry and either pressure employers to get them to the bargaining table or you lobby politicians to get a bill. Call me a cynic, but given that your employer and top management has more money than all the employees put together, I wouldn't count on getting a law passed by traditional $lobbying$. Either way, though, what we're talking about is a union. I'd recommend checking out WashTech or the IWW.

Here in Washington state, the Washington Software Alliance lobbies to make it legal to not pay tech workers overtime. They - the folks with the cash that we need to pay for rent, food and bandwidth are very certainly taking an 'US vs. Them' outlook. Like the overtime bill, they also lobby against ergonomics standards and just about everything that would improve our quality of life and work life to their own advantage.

But there actually is a union for tech workers - Washtech. The union arose out of the microsoft-permatemp lawsuit. While we (I'm a member) do traditional organizing campaigns to unionize workplaces, there is a lot of member activism in lobbying for the interest of tech workers. It's a small organization, primarily the work of the members. We also do low-cost training by members, for members and sponsor workshops on such timely issues as unemployment, gov'ment retraining monies, worker's rights, etc.
Check it out.

Here in Washington state, the Washington Software Alliance lobbies to make it legal to not pay tech workers overtime. They - the folks with the cash that we need to pay for rent, food and bandwidth are very certainly taking an 'US vs. Them' outlook. Like the overtime bill, they also lobby against ergonomics standards and just about everything that would improve our quality of life and work life to their own advantage.

But there actually is a union for tech workers - Washtech. The union arose out of the microsoft-permatemp lawsuit. While we (I'm a member) do traditional organizing campaigns to unionize workplaces, there is a lot of member activism in lobbying for the interest of tech workers. It's a small organization, primarily the work of the members. We also do low-cost training by members, for members and sponsor workshops on such timely issues as unemployment, gov'ment retraining monies, worker's rights, etc.
Check it out.

So if you and your co-workers want to unionize, there is a resource for you. If you don't want to collectively bargain, feel free to ignore this. Of course, unionization empowers workers and is considered a threat to the employers and their sycophants. Union organizers used to be accused of being communistic atheists, and these sycophants for the bosses will probably crawl out from whatever rock they're under and start attacking your right to join a union, just like a fundamentalist wackadoo attacks atheists. Despite the fact that your ultimate bosses, the people collecting dividends and interest from corporate stocks and bonds, are mostly heirs who have never worked a day in their life and have no skills whatsoever, unions will be attacked as hurting the hard-working and the skilled (even though guilds were originally formed to protect skilled workers). They will also call unions corrupt although they will neglect to mention the Ken Lays and the Enrons you work for being corrupt

Frankly, I'm sick of the little Farscape-watching socially retarted reactionary dorks I am often forced to work side-by-side with, who have no need for free time since they spend their free time in front of the computer for the boss instead of socializing with other human beings. Well - let them loose with their sycophantic rantings, just remember there are a lot of us, like you and me, who are on our side, and can and will do something about what's going on.