Slashdot Mirror
Indian Software Firm Outsourcing Jobs To US
phobos13013 writes "NPR is reporting Indian software maker Wipro is outsourcing positions to a development office opening in Atlanta, Georgia. Although it sounds good for US job growth, the implication is that firms outside the US appear to be dominating more and more in the global economy, even from developing and underdeveloped regions of the world. Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."
Our greatest friend and ally!... After the UK, Australia, Canada, and of course Bosnia.
large pool of qualified applicants in the market today
qualified. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means
We freely sent off our manufacturing, then our IT, and a good bit of agriculture. But thankfully, we still have a great service industry, lots of restaurants, etc. That'll keep us safe in times of financial/world troubles.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
In India, jobs outsource to you!
U.S. companies outsourcing jobs to foreign countries: bad for the U.S.
Foreign companies outsourcing jobs to the U.S.: bad for the U.S.
Seriously, why is this such a surprise to everyone? When you going a global economy, it's like opening a flood gate; initially there's a huge rush out (everyone outsources), then some smaller waves back (people demand more insourced jobs), then - well, then it all balances out (US Company A outsources to India, Indian Company B outsources to the US, Mexican company G outsources to the UK, UK Company L outsources to Oz, etc etc).
In fact, isn't this exactly what everyone was telling us would eventually happen 8 years ago? So shouldn't we have been expecting it?
Looking for hardware (Currently need: Large Etch-a-Sketch) Have one? See my journal!
You can bet your paycheck they will be looking to hire a gaggle of H1-Bs they've already selected back home.
This ploy is not new.
Another story about outsourcing to 3rd world countries!
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Its just a THEORY... just like EVOLUTION and GRAVITY
Market theory is well tested and proven...
This sounds a bit weird "Large pool of qualified applicants in the market today". What large pools, there is a shortage of qualified applicants in the IT industry as a whole, or is this just in issulated areas of the world? In Denmark at least there is a HUGE shortage of qualified people, especially if your a softare developer.
Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."
Stagnate, not stagnant.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
There is a LOT of bureaucracy to comply with, and a lot of countries are now offering simplified corporate taxes and regulations to boost interest in their economies. Eastern Europe is a very good example. Not only have many of those countries adopted flat corporate taxes, which cut down on the cost of compliance, and the rates are pretty low and getting lower. The last I heard, the total cost of compliance with our income tax, personal and corporate, is about $286B a year in lost productivity, added bureaucracy, etc. It's ironic, but ending the variable-rate (I'm loathe to call such a stupid system "progressive") income tax in the United States alone, and replacing it with a very simple flat tax would constitute a sweeping tax cut just in terms of the resources freed up from the bullshit compliance efforts.
It doesn't help too that many Americans view things like health care as their God-given right. Many people don't want to even pay for their own health care. They foist those costs onto their employers, and the result is that we have an auto industry that is collapsing because it has to cut corners on the quality of its cars to price them at the same rate that Japanese companies, which don't lavish effectively unlimited health care coverage, onto their employees. GM, for example, has about $1,500/car in expenses just for health care that it has to pay for its union workers, many of whom haven't gotten the memo: most corporate employees don't get these benefits, why should they?
Deregulation, a simplified tax code and making people pay their own way are the only things that will make America able to compete with these leaner, cheaper countries.
Wasn't there a Dilbert comic strip where Dilbert's company outsources to X who outsources to Y who outsources to .... who outsources to Dilbert's company.
;)
And everyone lies a bit about meeting the SLAs and so quotes cheaper prices.
The fact that software development is often outsourced, off-shored, and then off-shored again should make it quite clear that the work quality of the average developer is about the same as cheap commodity coffee beans.
Heh. I once worked on servicedesk for a well known gases company, with global IT operating out of the UK. The servicedesk was exported to India.
A few months later I noticed in the news that the Indian firm to which the servicedesk had been outsourced had purchased a call-centre in Northern Ireland. My guess is the Geordie, Scottish, Worzel Gummidge, Scouse accents were too confusing. Oh, to listen in to some of those conversations...
Apparently that company has since brought IT back to the UK. The price of trying to save a few pennies...
So does this mean that when Indians call for tech supported, they will get angry because they can't understand the American accent of someone claiming to be Raehan?
"Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."
TFA only mentions the Indian tech industry. I'm sure you could make a case for a world-wide effect from this, but the article doesn't mention it.
...is developing!
Something must be done!
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
As an employer, I have to say that this is total BS. If there was a large pool of qualified applicants, we'd have a larger workforce.
The reality is that the market for IT talent with actual talent (as opposed to fluffed up CVs) is VERY tight, at least across
North America.
Outsourcing is not all that cost effective, due to miscommunication leading to wasted effort, weird working hours, telco and travel costs, etc. Organizations outsource because they can't find local talent, and apparently talent is getting pretty short in places like India too - meaning that we're still stuck.
This recent article discusses an interesting paradox India is in: It will have high unemployment among the educated, but only because those educated are not skilled enough to perform the required jobs (including, but not limited to, IT). The point is that India will not be able to come close to meeting the demand of an estimated workforce shortage of 40 million by 2012.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
If by qualified, you mean "willing to undercut someone who can get the job done right", then sure. The fact remains that some companies will understand that to get the job done right will cost a fair salary.
Lots of people play football, too... but not everybody makes it to the NFL.
"The need to build the internet comes from something inside us, something programmed... something we can't resist."
Can you show me exactly where this pool of "qualified" applicants is? My company is desperate to hire quality people. Despite extensive pre-screening, I'd say no more than 20% (and that's optimistic) of people who make it to an in-person interview are nearly qualified. Maybe 10% I'm impressed with.
Knowing how to write C/C++/Java or anything else is not sufficient to be "qualified". In fact, I'd sooner hire someone who was bright, creative, well-versed in computer *science*, and doesn't know a compiled language from an interpreted one than hire a wizard at Java who can't think (him|her)self out of a paper bag.
it's communication with co-workers and the difficulties that come integrating remote teams.
My brother-in-law is a developer for a big fininacial services operation, and they attempted to outsource a project. Eventually management gave up and brought the work back to the home office, as the quality of code coming out of the outsourcing house was crap. Basically, a lot of the code they sent back was buggy or hard to integrate and had to be debugged and redone by the on-site developers.
But I'm not sure that that's an indication that the coders were poor (though that's a possibility). Basically, you're asking folks to communicate across both a language barrier and time difference that just makes it really difficult to do so with good results. Not impossible, perhaps, but difficult. Considering the difficulties that folk speaking the same primary language and sitting in the same room have communicating, I think it's safe to say very difficult.
Moving your "onshore outsourcing" to Georgia or wherever might address language issues, but the problems that come with integrating a remote team aren't going to go away.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnant or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today.
Similarly, the price of computer hardware world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to improvements in technology and an increase in the number of manufacturers. We all know that cannot be good for the industry.
When the cost of any product (or service) falls, more people/companies can use that product due to the reduced cost and produce more/better stuff for the end consumer - this is true for microchips, shoes, tools, janitors or programming services.
Yeah, it sucks if you are the producer of the product whose price falls, but the consumers of your product or service do not have to support you. It does not matter if the price falls because of technology or because of cheap "foreign" imports - either way the consumer has more money in the pocket now to create other, new stuff (either by himself or by investing).
Over 90% of the IT coworkers I've had in the past 10 years of my IT career had NO education in IT whatsoever. I'm also sorry to report that it reflects in the quality of their work.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
I, for one, will not work for less than a certain sum. I'll go back to cooking before I do I.T. style work for less money.
BIZARRO outsourcing?
Also, if I have an insurance policy that the hospital accepts, the cost of a procedure is X$. If I don't have insurance, it'x 2X or even 3X$. Again, WTF?
The Raven
Hey if somebody else is knocking at your country's door and catering better to business (as far as business is concerned) then more power to you. The rest of us will have to learn to adapt to a changing world, choose to die, or die trying. Everybody is adverse to change, but it's often not such a big deal if you embrace it -- only then will you be able to see the opportunies when you learn to work with it instead of fearing it.
I know our [US] economy has been sliding badly... the gap between the haves and the have-nots has been ever-widening and the middle class is moving to extinction... but I didn't know it had progressed so far along that we are being treated like a nation of "brown people." How long before I am chastised for having an American accent when I speak on the phone?
There are a lot of cautionary tales about outsourcing and often the infrastructure necessary to successfully out source over seas almost negates the cost benefit. You need good bilingual managers, well thought out specifications, a good out sourcing firm or subsidiary, rigorous hiring practices and a "friend" in the over seas government to protect you investment. It's worth it if you need extra capacity with more flexibility (as over seas hiring/firing can be easier). From personal experience hiring an over seas firm does not guarantee any cost savings and if your only looking to shave your costs you may find out like my previous company that out sourcing can be a multi hundreds of million dollar catastrophe.
I've been part of small companies that hired a over seas company to to find out they paid a retainer for almost nothing. I've been part of a large company that spend a couple hundred million and got back a unusable piece of trash. The company was Isreali. Many heads rolled.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
US companies outsoucing jobs to Indian who THEN outsource back to the US ==> Bone-headed AND bad for the US
A goal is a dream with a deadline
We need internet FAST ENOUGH(which it isn't) that we can hire indian doctors for the poor.
Thats right. I am sure outsourcing to india would save the lower incomes a good penny.
Robotic Surgery with a doctor all the way in India or China?
Sounds good to me. I am sure the medical lobby will deem it too dangerous since they care for us so much.
But then again, WHO IS?
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
First, the bad news was that jobs were being outsourced. Now the bad news is that the jobs are coming back to the US.
the job you had before it was outsourced was outsourced back to you at 1/3 the pay!
We have been outsourcing jobs to a country with one of the most suffocating civilian bureaucracies in the world, with government-provided healthcare to boot.
So tell me why India has not been moving IT jobs to the US?
You do understand that the US is ALONE in all developed nations in NOT providing universal healthcare? Do you know that the tax burden in the US is almost the lowest in the industrial world (I think maybe Japan is less)?
You understand that US manufacturing has been effectively outsourced to the People's Republic of China? This is a country run by the Communist Party for Christ's sake! If "free markets" are so great, then why has the last great communist dictatorship swallowed our jobs (and own a huge chunk of our debt)?
Of course, don't let reality get in the way of your political rant. Rather than look at incompetent political and corporate leaders, you would prefer to blame the average person for wanting a better life. In your fantasy world, it is the powerless who are to blame, for not granting the rich and powerful event more power and wealth.
Wipro is a conglomerate that makes and sells soaps and shampoo and other baby products. Are we sure it is the IT division that is opening the office in Atlanta, GA, and not one of the soap division opening an export office?
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Listening to the audio version of the story, I found a few key points:
* US programmers are still much more expensive than programmers in other countries.
* Wipro has software houses in multiple countries around the world, their is their first Software house in the US though.
* US programmers know about the culture and idioms of this country, which is needed for some jobs.
* Any defense contracts must be worked on my US based developers.
Its not what it is, its something else.
Aren't the car companies private companies? Aren't the workers private citizens?
Did not a private company agree to pay for private citizen's health care? Are there any other costs I can foist on my employer? I'd like them to pay for my car and house. Is there some foisting forms I need to fill out to compel them to pay for whatever I'd like?
No seriously, you're onto something about shifting costs, but this example is really an awful one. It would have more meaning if the government mandated that companies provide health care, but they don't. So explain how you prevent companies from offering a legal benefit to their workers, and why this would be good public policy?
If my company wants to offer me free pizza on Friday, is that something government needs to be concerned with? How about if they offer me a gym membership... is that something the government needs to start setting policy around?
It's almost like you want a laissez-faire government, and want to back it up with strict government regulations to make sure of it. It's an oxymoron.
I laughed out loud at this.
Businesses consider cost over quality 80% of the time.
So you are always losing excellence as they cut meat, defer upgrades, stifle PO's for required software and then get upset later when you do not achieve excellence.
The easy ride for businesses of cheap IT is ending in 2010. We are already losing people left and right at my corp because other local businesses are giving them 20% raises-- and we pay what I thought was darn good salaries (around six figures after bonus).
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
You must be joking. Models in market theory are mostly oversimplified. Often to the extent that the results are useless for practical purposes.
Why do you think investments in stock markets are still a risky business? Because all the investors do not listen to the academia? If models and theory in physics would be that unreliable nuclear power plants would regularly go boom!
"Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
Developing! Developing!! Developing!!! Developing!!!!
</ballmer>
I live in Atlanta Georgia and a lot of people are talking about how this company will be bringing jobs to Atlanta. The truth is that while they will be hiring people, this will result in a NET LOSS for Atlanta and the United States.
The way this works is that Fortune 50 companies in Atlanta like Bell South, Coca-Cola, Delta, etc. have contracts with US based firms and employ US based resources. The movement is now to outsource to India. The problem is that they realize that they have to have someone in the United States to actually talk to the customer and deal with problems. These people will be the business analysts and the technical architects that feed the people off shore. While they say that these companies are creating jobs in the United States, the truth is that most of them will be landed resources also from India under H1B visa.
The result of this is that the 50 people in Atlanta that were working in IT are now replaced by 40 off shore people, 5 landed people in Atlanta, and 5 local people. I'm not judging whether it's good or bad or right or wrong, I'm just clarifying what is really happening because most people are way off on this one.
About 10 years ago my wife and I moved from a beach area in California to North Central Arizona - partly because it is a beautiful place and partly because a much lower cost of living in Arizona has freed us up to be more flexible in our working (or not working). Neither one of us has had a job in an office since our move, and we both only work on projects that interest us.
:-)
Frankly, I can not understand why so many people trade both their time and preference to work on interesting projects for material stuff like frequently buying new cars, homes that are much larger than they really need, etc. I believe that this odd behavior is caused by a lifetime of subjecting oneself to advertising, but that is just a theory
NPR is reporting Indian software maker Wipro is outsourcing positions to a development office opening in Atlanta, Georgia. Although, it sounds good for US job growth, the implication is that firms outside the US appear to be dominating more and more in the global economy
So let me get this straight, a single company was found to open a US office, and the implication is that firms outside the US dominate the global economy ??
NPR should adjust the weight they contribute to a single anecdotal case I believe.
In a global economy you'll see Indian companies opening US offices and US companies opening offices in India. You'll see Japanese companies having US devisions that outgrow the Japanese ones and basically everything.
Borders don't mean jack anymore. You pick a place that has the people you want, the market you want and the taxes you want, and go for it.
Would you really recommend IT to school kids evaulating future careers with the canon of globalization pointed right up IT's ass? Things may turn out okay, or they may get worse. But you have to admit the global monkey is on IT's back, making it a risky career choice.
Table-ized A.I.
Back in the 80's when Japanese cars made real inroads in the U.S. car market, people would comment that Japanese cars were built better and more reliable than their American counterparts. Inevitably this would lead to talk of "fat lazy union workers", and would conjure up pictures of some fat slob with a cigarette dangling from his mouth only putting in the occasional bolt if the mood struck him.
The reality is that quality in cars is engineered from the earliest drawings. It goes into the manufacturing process to ensure there is only one correct way to assemble something. It comes about because management is committed to a quality product. Not just the words, but they take concrete steps to ensure what goes out the door is the best that they know how to build.
So the Japanese really were building better cars simply because the management of the company committed to building good cars. The proof was when Honda and Toyota moved manufacturing to the United States with no loss in quality. Nobody cares if their Accord is built in the U.S. or Japan, the cars are simply quality products.
To this day, the myth of the lazy American work persists, I assume partly because American cars for the most part still fall below Japanese standards. Now somehow the Union makes line workers stupid and lazy, which is ridiculous.
A large part of the reason unions arose in heavy industries was because management treated workers so poorly. That culture still exists in American automobile plants and leads to workers understand that the company will cheat them blind without a good contract. So the company treats people poorly and suffers the consequence in the factory.
It's like you punch somebody in the face, and then complain when they punch you back.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Last week on Slashdot: We don't have enough engineers! Should we subsidize those majors in college?
This week on Slashdot: Too many engineers! Salaries are falling!
The funny thing is, though... drive-through surgery works. Damn well. It's freaking amazing. My wife had to have two this summer: the first was a gallbladder removal, the second was a result of pain during her pregnancy (baby broke something, doc went in and fixed it). Cost $300 a pop, insured, in and out in less than 4 hours. Had 1-2 checkups for each following the surgery.
Would you rather recover in a hospital, or in bed at home? I think that might be half the battle.
Can you really not find qualified people, or are you removing yourself from their consideration? If you want a superstar developer for cheap, they aren't even going to reply to your ad. And all the people you do see are probably no more qualified than the offshore resources you'll eventually hire. I agree that people who can think are in short supply, but the reality is you don't get that automatically just by going offshore for staff. In my experience, offshoring isn't about talent as much as cost savings. Coders are cheap and plentiful, developers are expensive and rare. Most companies that can't find talent are trying to hire developers at coder rates.
Knowing how to write C/C++/Java or anything else is not sufficient to be "qualified".
As usual, you want somebody who has 5 years experience in YOUR co's exact 30 languages and 20 acronyms. Maybe if you try enough countries you'll find a match eh? Or get struck by lightning while winning a grand in Vegas.
Table-ized A.I.
We need internet FAST ENOUGH(which it isn't) that we can hire indian doctors for the poor. Thats right. I am sure outsourcing to india would save the lower incomes a good penny. Robotic Surgery with a doctor all the way in India or China?
Doctor? Instead we'd get mugged by Bender controlled by Bendai.
Table-ized A.I.
If you will recall Wipro, Tata, InfoSys, InfoTech, Tech Mahindra, Satyam, Mphasis, Panti, and i-Flex have all been nailed for precisely this.
n t/jun2007/db20070626_139605.htm
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/conte
"Moreover, you seem to think this is automatically bad. As a generally benign tax-paying and extremely low crime population"
You seem to be making a great deal of assumptions there that one might think betrays are certain corollary bias.
Movies? Check.
Microcode? Check.
Now for high-speed pizza delivery...
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
Sir, you are completely full of s***. You can find lots, and lots, of very talented people, which meet or exceed your requirements.
All you have to do is pay more for them. It's that simple.
Take any technical position. Budget $200,000 for a salary for it. I guarentee you'll find more than enough qualified applicants for it. The labor market is NOT tight. It's only tight for what you're willing to pay.
If you were smart though, you'd be looking at a new college grad. Take them in and train them the way you want. Yes, that takes some management and planning skills. It's one thing which is lacking these days. You sound like no exception.
So quit your whining and get a clue. This B.S. is tiresome and gets shot down every time some clueless twit repeats it.
I suspect this is more due to the relatively low takeup of Danish internationally.
UK. No shortage.
America. No shortage.
English. Highly prevalent.
Tell you what. Switch your country to English and all your labour shortage problems will go away.
Deleted
Comment removed based on user account deletion
MOD PARENT UP - 100% Correct
I established an offshore unit in India for an American software company. (I joked that my job was outsourced, but I clung to it so tightly that I went to India with it.)
If you want a kid who read a 3 year old copy of "Teach Yourself Java in 10 Days" last weekend, sure, there are thousands of those all over India. I regularly turned away about 40 of those each week.
An Immutable Law of the Universe: Software is fucking hard to write
Finding people skilled at writing software is not easy. If you yourself are not actually skilled at writing software, you have almost no chance of determining if someone who writes software is bright, or full of bullshit. At that level, it truly "takes one to know one".
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of VERY smart software developers in India. However, those guys are just as rare as they are in the United States, and just as expensive. Even if you can find one for a cheap rate, it won't be long before another company realizes the developer's potential. Now with "Worked in American outsourced job" on their resume, they are ready to make the big bucks.
Miscommunication leading to wasted effort, weird working hours, telco and travel costs is only the beginning. When you get on a conference call and the big boss back in the U.S. says on the speakerphone (with a room full of Indian software developers listening), "We don't want him *acting Indian* on us." only then does the difficulty in outsourcing show it's true magnitude. (Yes, this actually happened to me. Imagine being the only American in that room!)
especially in IT. if going gets tough in one place, you can just move to another place.
Read radical news here
These people will be the business analysts and the technical architects that feed the people off shore. While they say that these companies are creating jobs in the United States, the truth is that most of them will be landed resources also from India under H1B visa.
Of all the points I have seen on this thread, the above quote is the most legitimate. I'm a business IT consultant with a focus on custom application development. I'm one of those "technical architects" he speaks of. Our local teams are rather small with our full-time consultants to build the foundation of the applications and we then tap into a pool of contractors to do fill in the implementations as provided by the design me, my fellow consultants and business analysts construct.
One of the things the parent does overlook is that aside from experience and technical skill, clear communication skills are essential. I remember being told back in college in the late 90s I would need strong communication skills (granted English is my first language). I am not referring to only plain English but also an understanding of "International" English (to speak to our Indian associates and any other people who aren't familiar with localized metaphors) and business-speak. In addition, it takes a level of being assertive and proactive.
Would that be on the parent or the sibling?
will have to start doing the neeful?
I get queries from Indian Recruiters and I rarely bother with them. The rates they offer are usually quite low. Anybody who wants to fall on their sword like that is welcome to these "McProgramming" jobs.
Maybe he didn't want to bloat that thread further? :)
In the free software world, one owner is as good as any other. If the software is free, it has no owners and the company location does not matter. There is nothing to own but your effort, so there is nothing to "give away".
Foreign owners hiring US workers is the ultimate irony for jingoistic tools who sold their freedom to M$ and others to benefit the "US information economy". If you want US dominance based on merit, you should advocate free software. If you want US dominance at any cost, your persuit of non free software was a mistake. Either way, non free was a loser. Laws like the DMCA have harmed the ability of the US to compete in the world market. They benefited those who grew outside their influence and they will be used by them now that they are big enough. Justice only comes from freedom. Benefits gained outside of freedom don't last long and restrictions will always be turned against you.
thankfully, we still have a great service industry, lots of restaurants, etc. That'll keep us safe in times of financial/world troubles.
That's sarcasm, I hope. Burger flipping will not tide us through the next depression. If the US is to remain wealthy, it needs an industrial base and things to trade things that people want. At the rate things are going, China and India will have superior weapons to match their overwhelming manpower and we won't even be able to bully things people won't trade freely. That would not be so bad if China was a free country, but it's not and our inability to defend ourselves will be the end of our freedom.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
"Qualified IT workers"--that must be the meaning of "qualified" as in "a qualified statement" or "a qualified yes".
Seriously, there is a big shortage of good IT workers. There are a lot of IT workers with credentials and degrees, but they simply aren't good.
it's look pretty certain that YOU missed the irony.
Say, Shanty, isn't your accent a bit too Southern?
Mexico has been oursourcing restaurants to the US for decades.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I don't think you can find a statistically significant difference between those with certifications and those without. I bet you could find quite a difference between those with experience and those without, though.
There is no relationship between certification and skill, positive or otherwise. If I go get a certification, am I worse than I was before? Absolutely not. We all have our reasons for getting them. I think the danger is replacing experience with certifications, or viewing certifications as anything other than rote understanding of technology.
I would also argue that it is easy enough to find someone with a great deal of experience who still sucks at the job. If you've been a bad coder for ten years, you're still a bad coder. Some people just aren't cut out to be engineers, but they still somehow manage to hold down a job for a long time.
No. Not the poor. The well-to-do.
Do you need non-emergency surgery? Soon, you will fly to India to have it done.
Wrong.
As the years go by more and more oldsters are going to retire.
There won't be enough folks to do the jobs.
A Number of Indian Companies have opened offices in the UK. However most of the staff are Indians and are paid Indian Salaries
Very few 'local' are employed by them. Then they go in and offer really low prices to outsource you IT Management & Development.
A few staff are here but the rest are back home in India.
One organisation I was involved with was within 3 hours of being closed down (ie stopped from trading) due to total incompetance and lack of skills by the Indian Company who was managing their IT Systems.
Also beware the 'learning on the job' of these companies. Another company sent some developers over here to 'help' me with a major project in London. They had zero no prior skills in this technology area and after a whole year of training by me they were still unable to develop projects for themselves from scratch.
This was the same company who 'won' the IT management contract for a Bank in the Middle East. After 3 months they were thrown out as the entire ATM and Credit Card network was down for the EDE holiday period.
Don't get me wrog, there are lots of very skilled Indian IT workers but in the main, they don't work for these companies very long after graduation. I am co owner of an IT company. The other owner is a very skilled guy from Chennai. H is now a British Citizen and so are his wife and kids. He hates these 'Indian' companies as much as I do. At least he can swear at them in Hindi etc.
About 10 years ago my wife and I moved from a beach area in California to North Central Arizona
I know I'll probably get scored as "Troll" or what not but...
Sorry if this is a tad on the nasty side but you never hear about the things that happen to those "low cost of living" areas in the US when the Californian and Texas move in.
Sounds like all the people from California that moved to Show Low, AZ - that place is a Shit hole now! I have gone back to visit my parents and friends on and off and am sickened as to how the developers have screwed up that town! It was a nice area back in the 80's early 90's but now it's an overcrowded dungpile. All the people from California and Texas came in bought up ALL the open forest land and tore down all the trees and covered the green pastures with cement! They even have taken over the lake that USED to be free to use and now have made it an "exclusive" lake - paid members ONLY. It's not the town I went to school in anymore. I feel sorry for my friends and family... I moved to another smaller size town (~ 40,000 people), but I didn't walk in thinking I owned the place, buy up a ton of open land and screw it up!
Only one thing to say to those people!
"Now that you've seen Arizona, go back to California - and take the Texan with you!"
The Truth is a Virus!!!
I am a US citizen, you insensitive clod!
Seriously. But you're joking, right?
Offer to pay someone good, good money and they'll come out of the woodwork. Don't think you're going to get a Porsche paying Yugo prices. Most people that take pride in their work take pride in their pay.
What?
It's not a Theory, it's a hypothesis, and the one demonstrably wrong:
From 1900 to 2000 American population has trippled in size (from 100M to 300M). Inflation-adjusted GDP has quindecimtupled (grown 15 times over!) for the same period (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_p
As you can see, more people means more jobs means more prosperity for everybody!
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
US company makes gadgets ready for assembly.
They send gadgets over seas to be assembled
Gadget is sent back to US company for adding to another gadget.
US company claims entire sequence as increase in US productivity.
Is the productivity increase really said to belong to the US company?
Many economists calculating GDP are beginning to question it.
I've seen a few comments from employers in this thread who bemoan the lack of experienced people in the job market.
..."): regular corporate layoffs. To most managers, we grunts are nothing more than numbers in the "Expenses" column of a spreadsheet.))
Whatever happened to hiring someone who was inexperienced, but still sharp, and developing that person? This is how I got my start in 1990: someone who had seen my work took a chance that I'd do a good job supporting the company's LAN, even though I lacked experience, and hired me. With the exception of a few months during the bust years of 2001 and 2002, I've been working in the field ever since (in a variety of different positions, most recently QA testing).
One thing I noticed around the turn of the century was that there weren't any 20-somethings at work anymore. At age 34, I was far and away the youngest person at work. Where will the next generation of experienced old hands come from if not from within? At some point, all the experienced people will be too old to work any more, and then what will we do? The worst part of outsourcing is that we're outsourcing not just today's jobs, but the future of our talent pool.
((Let me cynically answer my first question ("Whatever happened to hiring
Sure an editor didnt just smack you?
cpsJust vbDont vbOutsource ppYour nCode prepTo cntryHungary.
Let me get it straight:
When there is outsourcing TO India ppl complain, when there is insourcing FROM India ppl complain.WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU WANT PEOPLE???
No doubt about it, they'll figure out how to trample upon the US once again.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
been saying for years that it's only a matter of time before the rates go up and outsourcing becomes outsourcing for the outsourcing...
go figure - people lose jobs in america to india because companies say that there are no "qualified candidates". now india outsources it back to the U.S. - wait a sec... I thought there were no qualified candidates? so it takes indian companies to find these qualified candidates in america?
am i the only one who sees the "middle man" that we can do without?
Not to mention their presence being heavily south of the Mason-Dixon line, where they've used Taft-Hartley to ensure that it doesn't happen.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Out of interest, would you accept an applicant who wanted to telework ?
I used to work in commercial IT in the UK, but almost nowhere was prepared to consider teleworking or flexible hours.
In my experience, a lot of commercial IT roles involve a huge heap of office politics and bureaucracy that date back to the 1970s.
I quit commercial IT and joined an academic project as a software developer. So did many of the other people on our team.
We now have a team of very skilled developers and an excellent project manager, all of whom telework from home.
We use a lot of the same tools and techniques that open source projects use to keep everyone on a distributed team working together on the same page.
I don't think any of us would want to go back to commercial world.
We sell those things to china one time, then that's it, they clone them. Yes, even heavy equipment. A friend of mine sold a buncha heavy equipment to china once, a pretty decent 8 figure order, one sale, one time, after that identical copies were being peddled from there under some weird label, and much cheaper than the US brand.
I work for a small company, and when we were searching resumes for a new position, I ignored all the people with master's degrees. We're looking to pay ~$45k/yr for a programmer, (it's in the Midwest, so cost of living is low here), and someone with your qualifications is easily worth twice that. Quite frankly, we wouldn't have enough work for you to do, and what we have wouldn't be challenging enough.
You are reading a copy of my copyrighted post.
Much like every other global company that wants to do progressively more business in the U.S., you must get the politicians on your side. That entails offices/plants so they can actually get meetings inside the political system. Otherwise, no one will give you the legislative time.
The parent post is right on and warrants 5+ informative moderation.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today.
... In my experience, the pool of "qualified applicants" has fallen to almost zero.
;-). My part of the task was a single requirement that they literally couldn't find anywhere else in the world. I was a bit puzzled by that, because it was actually just a tricky bit of programming of some abstract math and pattern matching (in C), but I didn't quibble.
Hmmm
The explanation is well known to us software people. I remember back in the 1980s, when I ran across an ad for people with at least five years experience in a certain popular DB system. At the time, that DB system had been available from its vendor for almost 3 years.
These, a different variant of this approach is being used more and more. I've registered with a number of the well-known online job sites, and I get a dozen or so job descriptions every day. A number of my friends do this, too. It's quite rare to see a job description that any of us is qualified for. We get the descriptions because some fraction of the keywords match words in our resumes. However, each description has at least one requirement that I don't have. It seems fairly clear that for most of these, the probability is close to zero that a person exists anywhere on the planet with experience that matches every requirement. There is usually a list of other "nice to have" things, but those don't really matter if you don't have the required experiences.
We've tested a few of them that are sorta close by replying, with a more up-to-date resume, but typically there's no response at all. When we get a response, it's usually that we aren't qualified (but they'll keep our resumes in their DB in case an appropriate job comes up).
I have talked to a few HR people, to, of course, and they agree the approach is to write the job requirements to that nobody will actually be qualified. This gives them two options: One is that, if after a phone call they like you, they can say that they'll consider you although you're not qualified, but they may have trouble persuading their managers to pay you the stated rate due your lack of qualifications. So the intent is downward pressure on pay scales, because everyone is now "unqualified".
Alternatively, of course, this is done so that they can report that they couldn't find anyone in the country (the US in my case) that is qualified, so they'll just have to outsource the job. Or maybe look for a H1-B immigrant to hire as a trainee at a much lower salary. Or, of course, a student trainee or intern that can be hired for much less than even the immigrants.
Actually, I did have a 2-year job a few years ago, and interestingly it was a project for a UK firm that had outsourced the task to an American software company. But I got this job because I knew several of the people who owned the company. The team did include several H1-B people (and a couple of Canadians
Anyway, it doesn't seem like "globalization" is the whole explanation here. Rather, IT employees have learned how to classify everyone, even the most experienced, as unqualified for any current job. So you accept an entry-level wage, or you are dismissed as unqualified.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Chat log of remote surgery:
Surgeon(India): "We are beginning lateral incision now"
Nurse(Atlanta): "Oops, looks like you nicked the bracheal artery, would you like me to clamp?"
Surgeon(India): "..."
Nurse(Atlanta): "Doctor we should really cla...Oh my god! Stop cutting!"
Surgeon(India): "..."
Nurse(Atlanta): "Aaaa! There's blood everywhere!"
Surgeon(India): "Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag."
Remote surgery is well and good, but you do surgery from the other side of the planet and you're chancing SERIOUS problems.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
The only things the UAW forgot to do was to close the "Made in US from Japanese design/parts" loophole and repeal Taft-Hartley(unlikely under President PATCO(Reagan)). Deregulation, a simplified tax code and making people pay their own way are the only things that will make America able to compete with these leaner, cheaper countries. Tariffs would do the same thing, without lowering quality. Now if you want to remove Taft-Hartley and stop trying to kill quality goods, then we can talk. Until then, stop shoving I4 coffins and shoddy electronics into the US until people want them out of boredom.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Honda of America Mfg., Inc., Marysville, Ohio. 3.8M sq. feet, 5,300 employees.
Dog is my co-pilot.
What I do know is that an MRI was 1000$ for the insurance, but would have been 2-3000$ if I requested it myself.
The Raven
...who just got back from an antiglobalization protest.
I've seen plenty of jobs that advertise as the following:
Looking for 5-7 years experience developing in PHP, Perl, C#, ASP and VB.NET
Require skills using windows/IIS servers, as well as Linux, Solaris, and AIX. Qmail, Sendmail, Active Directory, Exchange server, IIS, Apache blah blah. Oh, and Java too
Pay rate: $45k-55k/year (well, sometimes it's a bit better than this)
Now the thing is, I've got quite a number of those. I'm still good enough with my C-coding to debug many of the projects I run across (but those tend to be GCC compiled). My earlier days of coding involved a lot of VB and VC++, but I migrated towards more of a PHP/Perl environment as well as towards Linux server admin as opposed to windows
Do they really use all of the above, or even a heavy combination of both windows/ASP+C#+VB.NET dev and Linux/PHP/Perl at the same time? Many of the developers I know might be somewhat familiar with one, but tend to be most skilled at either the linux-type languages, or the windows-type languages. Ditto for the System Administration stuff. I'm primarily proficient at dealing with Linux servers, it's what we use in our shop. To keep my skills up, I'm poking at Solaris when I have free time, but I doubt I'll have a chance to crack at actual Sun hardware or any AIX/HP-UX boxes anytime soon. I've supported win2k servers but those were in times past, and my Active Directory/Exchange skills are somewhat lacking. Thus, these days my primary skills lie in administrating Linux Servers.
Could I do most of the above? Well, I couldn't do all of them equally well, and I would be very hard pressed to find somebody who is an expert or even extremely strong in all of those categories. Yes, you might see somebody who's damn good with Linux servers as well as many of the Unixy variety. Chances are that type of shop is going to be predominantly Linux/Unix though, maybe with a few windows servers but nothing overly heavy. Could I learn all of the above, sure. Instead of listing everything under the sun, at the very least I'd like to see a position that says 80% Linux Servers, 20% windows. I'm confident I could manage that environment and then learn/re-learn more of the windows stuff as I have the opportunity. I've been hard-pressed to find any tech that I couldn't get a handle on very quickly (short of some with absolutely terrible documentation and low proliferation).
Same with coding. You might find a guy that primarily does PHP/Perl, maybe Java, but if he's doing those I doubt he's big on ASP or VB.net (the inverse applies for the MS programmers as well). Nowadays I'm one of the more PHP/Perl type guys (used to be perl, but now more PHP). Could I fix up a page using ASP? Sure thing! I remember once where I worked we had a contractor that developed a system (against my recommendation) using ColdFusion. It had some pretty big bugs, and I was the one that ended up fixing them, despite not having touched CF before. The same for C++ stuff, I don't code in it much, but I'm still good enough to debug and fix issues with other people's projects, though I don't often start my own from-scratch operations anymore.
So what do you want? Do you want a guy who knows your core operations like the back of his hand, and is decent or quick-to-learn on the other stuff? Perhaps you want the guy who knows a little bit of all those, but not much of any. Or maybe you'll just end up with the guy that *says* he knows a lot about these things, perhaps managed to fluff his way through the interview, and ends up doing more harm than good?
I stand by keeping my resume honest, partly because I believe in that type of thing partly because I don't want to get a job I'll lose because I was never qualified in the first place (and my current job is decent, but I'm looking at a different location). I've had the opportunity to lie, I've had people want to hire me - for good pay , but without using my strong skills - and had to refuse because I knew there were better candidates. Jobs are un
Well the GP's first point was questioning supply and demand. THAT is incredibly well proven and if it wasn't there would be no stock market whatsoever. Thats all my point was, not that the entire thing is an exact science.
We don't really know what makes gravity work either, but we're pretty sure its working.
Lies about crimes
Yes, the world market is irrational. It happens every couple of decades. If you intend to try to profit from the current financial irrationality, remember this:
"The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" - John Maynard Keynes.
I have always thought that the legal profession is ripe for outsourcing. Not so much at the corporate level, but at the retail level. Consolidation into a something like a LawMart, with outsourced legal advice for wills, conveyancing, divorce, personal injury, insurance claims, et cetera.
Don't need the internet for that. For some surgeries, it's actually cheaper to fly to India, have the surgery and recovery period there, and fly back, than to have the same surgery in the US. This has been getting much more popular - Google "medical tourism". Popular among those without health insurance, not just the low-income.
There can be quality-of-care advantages too (i.e. because costs are lower, there's not a rush to get you out of the hospital prematurely).
A side note...my friends wife (both are from India and Muslims) is a pediatrician - a gold medalist from a top Indian University and completed the necessary courses/exams for practicing in US. She started working in a rural hospital near Allentown, PA. After a few months she found it difficult to continue - patients would demand to see an "American Doctor". It was very demoralizing. I know her well enough to say its not the language skills or interpersonal skills, but bias based on skin color.
The above could be an isolated incident. But without some type of campaigning, I dont think the 'shrub' from rural Kansas will listen to the advice of an Indian doctor. And the propaganda from Healthcare Industry will be shrill - bordering on xenophobia.
welcome our new Indian overlords
You forgot about Poland !
Those Polanders are good programoers too!
First off, companies like Wipro and Infosys have been recruiting at top U.S. engineering and computer science schools for a long time now. Secondly, isn't it obvious what will eventually happen? Everyone is so hung up about outsourcing, especially in information technology, but who cares, seriously? The standard of living in India is rapidly rising, prices are rising, the rupee is getting stronger, etc...there is actually a shortage of labor in India at this point (relative to its incredible level of economic growth over the past 5 or so years). These Indian firms have been creating jobs in the U.S. for a long, long time. It's the same deal with the auto industry - everyone is so hung on up the "big three" auto companies just because they are headquartered in America. When they cut jobs it gets more coverage than Paris Hilton gets when a paparazzi snaps a photo of her pantiless cooch after a night of hard partying at some glorious Hollywood club, but when Subaru builds a new plant in Indiana or Toyota adds jobs stateside no one cares. We live in a global economy - as long as we (as in the United States) can provide qualified, quality laborers (which is another story altogether, but at least the ball is in our court), we have the ability to stay on top throughout this age of globalization. Who cares if you work for an Indian IT firm from an office in Boston? It doesn't make any different to me if I'm working for Accenture or Infosys as long as I have a job.
"Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."
Everywhere I look there are tons of IT jobs. I think this might be wishful thinking. "Maybe if we say that wages are falling they'll accept less pay!"
"just a THEORY"
People who say that immediately lose all credibility due to their inability to understand what a fucking THEORY actually is.
For the record, THEORIES are essentially feasible and reasonable extrapolations based on a combination of FACTS that can be DEMONSTRATED and TESTED in a scientific manner.
For instance, I can test the "theory" of gravity. I can not test the "theory" of an afterlife.
Your talking about scientific theory, but that isn't the only kind of theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory :
"Theories exist not only in the so-called hard sciences, but in all fields of academic study, from philosophy to music to literature.
In the humanities, theory is often used as an abbreviation for critical theory or literary theory."
Software Inventor
And who are you going to sue when something goes wrong? The Indian or Chinese doctor? Good luck with that. It seems like you want cheap medical care without addressing the reasons it is so expensive in the US such as malpractice insurance and "Managed" care.
they don't care, they already got their attention they so dearly...um...never got from their mommies?
Maybe he started a trend.
And who are you going to sue when something goes wrong? The Indian or Chinese doctor? Good luck with that. It seems like you want cheap medical care without addressing the reasons it is so expensive in the US such as malpractice insurance and "Managed" care.
e rcentage%20of%20Doctors.html and http://www.autodealerscam.org/pressroom/release.cf m?ID=1222
Or you could do your due diligence up front and make sure the doctor is good before they operate so there is no need to sue afterwards
I've read more then once that it's a small percentage of bad doctors who are responsible for most malpractice suits, but since it's other doctors that regulate doctors, these bad doctors don't get there license pulled. For example http://www.saynotocaps.org/newsarticles/Small%20P
Some doctors in the US are going to a cash only with a waiver of liability, so they no hassles with insurance companies and no giant malpractice insurance premiums, which dramatically reduces their costs so they can charge reasonable prices.
Software Inventor
Let me shed some more light here. I'm Indian, sitting in my country, and currently work for a Fortune 100 American company that's outsourced work here. I've been into computers and programming from my school days, starting with Turbo Pascal on creaky school XTs running MSDOS 5 in the early 90s. Right from then on, I knew I wanted to write software for a living because I love coding and creating stuff. Back then, I innocently dreamt that all software companies were great places to work, filled with geniuses who made games like Doom, or packages like Corel Draw (this was 1994).
Much later, I've grown older and wiser-to the fact that 90% of people (at least in India) are just in it for the money, or to land an H1B in the US-i.e. anything but an interest for the subject. Every place I've worked-I've found people who are totally unidimensional-they'll sit and learn Java, but will not show the slightest interest in the field of computers, or the world of IT in general. (If there are any Indians living in India, who've always been here, AND who read Slashdot regularly, I haven't seen any).
Another common attitude here is-that programming is a kind of menial job and one should get out of it as soon as possible, and become a 'manager'.
It's not uncommon to find people becoming 'team leaders' within 5 years and 'project managers' within 7.
This is in stark contrast to my experience with US companies. In a previous job, for a US company that made medical imaging/archiving software, I was in awe of the guys who had written the software. One of them was the CTO of the company, and even he still wrote code.
Perhaps because you guys have had computers as part of your culture for a much longer time than we have-there are people out there(even reading this right now, I bet) with over 20-30 years of experience who still love to code and are passionate about Unix or Linux or the open source movement or whatever. I have always found it a great pleasure working with American(and British) colleagues just for these reasons:
1) Thorough, indepth knowledge and experience of the matter at hand. Not someone who just picked up 'Java for Dummies' and tried to bullshit his way through something, but someone who KNOWS his stuff. You won't find many Indians with 15 yrs of unix network programming experience here in India.
2) Communication skills: While most Indians may not sound like Apu from the Simpsons, I've had trouble understanding some people here, and some of them have actually gone and worked on projects in the US! I pity whoever had to work with them without an interpreter.
There have been times when I've had to interpret on behalf of someone over a teleconference.
Unless people here start off with an actual aptitude and interest for computers rather than as a passport to settling abroad or earning big bucks, this situation will prevail.
"..One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them, and in the darkness BIND them."
And freetraders/supplysiders still manufacture plenty of bullshit here too!
I may not be a smart man, but I know what an inode is.
How old are you? We've been outsourcing jobs for 30 years now, not 8, and in that time we have gone from the largest creditor nation to the largest debtor nation, with the lowest savings rate, the least amount of home equity, the largest governmental deficits, the largest balance of trade deficits, and etc.. We've swapped solid middle class jobs, blue collar and white collar, for mc service jobs with little to no benefits at reduced payscales. Socioeconomicists are saying now that the current youngest adults, generations y and z, will be the first generations since the US was founded that make less and will have less than the preceding generations, their parents and grand parents in other words, a net loss in other words.
(yes, I know someone will chime in with their anecdotal exception, I am speaking in general terms now, so pedants need not apply)
The only thing globalization has done is up the income of the top 1%, generally speaking. And they have a lot of people faked out that debt=assets for some bizarre reason, and they obviously believe it like some religious cult nonsense.
Check the damn business headlines! Wake up! If their globalization schemes worked, we wouldn't be needing this past month's slew of central bank hyper inflationary interventions, now would we? Well, would we? Why did they do that, if it wasn't necessary? Could it be they screwed the pooch and are in desperate straits now and are doing the only thing they know how to do since they forked the economy, and that is run the printing presses 24/7?
Here's a deflating cyber quarter, buy a reality clue with it and learn the difference between a carnival barker's shill and real economic data..
What is wrong with you guys?
So say we all
Spent seven months once me ( and a team of US coders) fixing an application WIPRO did for a major US client. There were suppossed to do a Struts application, but instead they wrote essentially a CGI script in Java, biggest mess I've ever seen! They really had no idea what they were doing, code was unbelievably sloppy, so maybe they need to hire some real programmers from the US to get anything done. M
> It doesn't help too that many Americans view things like health care as their God-given right.
I think you have it backwards, America is about the last nation on earth that doesn't have universal health care.
> Many people don't want to even pay for their own health care.
Nobody wants to pay for their own anything.
> They foist those costs onto their employers
Unless you work for the military, or something, you pay for most of your own healthcare. Employers do not pay a large % of most people's healthcare.
Don't even bother applying for the jobs with that kind of requirement list. It's all just BS. They know who they're going to hire and are going through motions.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
H1B's don't require any justification or job postings.
..."world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today"...
There is problem in paying too much heed to this. for reasons:
1. If you requalify yourself into solutions builder, you can most of the time compete with foreign workforce due to communications quality.
2. In general it is bad business to be an employee, as your fixed wage is seen as cost to the business and not an investment, and is something to be reduced and an opportune moment.
3. Staying flexible, with an eye open to doing things your own way is always better.
Smart and flexible people and thats coders always made more money. Larger corporations typically pay well, but first ones to ditch the expensive workforce, because of size of percieved savings. So don't be loyal to IBM, Oracle or Intel. Smaller companies may be better about it, but still business is a business. You must give business something in return for money. ie. be useful to the bottom line.
Unfortunately companies don't practice profit sharing, so it is tough to asess the importance of your work, to the company in terms of your results and output from them in terms of cash. And there is no better way to motivate people then condition them that they will get paid more if they work harder.
2c
The wealthy get rich on the backs of the poor, but seldom do the wealthy suffer as acutely. They just take their money elsewhere and exploit another group of poor. Question is, where will they go in a global market where most poor are already exploited?
But for the rest of us, there are far better solutions.
On any project of sufficient size, hungarian notation will become outdated. And it's just fucking hard to read.
Good programmers know this intuitively, so it makes a good interview question. I thank people for their time if they say anything positive about it.
Shouldn't those willing to improve themselves be treated better than those who aren't?
Anecdote
I prefer variable names that describe the *purpose* not the container.
You're avoiding all of the dubious benefits of Hungarian notation -- capturing semantic information that isn't provided by your environment -- whilst hitting its main problem head-on.
What happens if you change the type of iNumEmps to long, or long long? You'd better hope you remember to change all of the relevant variable names throughout your code.
What you do offers you no benefits, but increases your maintenance burden. Stop doing it.
Thank y'all, come again, ..... now, y'hear?
I don't think Squishees taste quite right in peach and pecan flavors, or chewing tobacco, either...
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
we dont hate you, we laught you
Globalization sounds rational only when wage slavery is prevented in developing nations.
Slashdot = Sarcasm
The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"
- Joshua
It adds random characters which may or may not correspond to what the scope and type were at one point in time. Those random characters do not necessarily conform to any standard, so you have to go find the coder who added them and ask what they mean, rather than just looking at the declaration.
Your statement that "They're just justifying an H!B!" is and remains bullshit: employers don't make job postings in order to "justify" an H1B because nobody ever actually asks for such a justification; as the Wikipedia article tells you, all the US government ever wants is an attestation.
That you are a subpar coder. I know it's hard for you, but try to keep up.
There are no hungarian notation checkers because tool users can get all the information hungarian notation aims to transmit in better, more accurate, ways. Hungarian notation is a very ugly solution in search of a problem.
If I use vi and you use emacs, we can collaberate without any troubles. If I write nice, standardized code and you write garbage, I have to fire you.
I rarely can find someone that I would call my peer. I'm not saying that I'm better than them or anything, but while they're out partying, I'm writing code. There are few people in this field that have a genuine passion for it - and less who have the passion/skill combination. I got started with BASIC on a C64 and VIC20 that I got from a cousin, and then went to QBASIC on a 386 an uncle gave me. The thing had like 4 megs of EDO RAM and was running Windows 3.1. I used to have to make boot disks, playing with HIMEM, to play my favorite games so that I'd have enough memory. Doom needed to be 'clean booted' by holding down the left shift key right after POST. I still have the AT Keytronic keyboard that he gave me with it, and to this day it's still my favorite. I wish they still made 'clickies'.
I'm not sure if it's cultural that over in India people want to be in management, but I know that in the USA, the people who want to be in management usually get there since there is little competition from the geeks who just want to write code. I'd suck as a manager for lack of passion - I have the ability to lead, but passion is worth ability ten times over.
I think software development is one of those jobs where the best advice you can give someone entering the field is, "If you can picture yourself doing anything else at all, you should go do that instead." Unfortunately, no one ever tells this to freshmen with dollar signs obscuring their vision. Which is nice, as it makes the alpha geeks look all that much better, and they offer us an obscene amount of money to do what we would be doing for free in our spare time, regardless. This allows us to continue to do what we do without ever having to get a 'day job', other than the 8 hours where we get to play on the toys that someone else chooses for us.
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
Only if you are single and don't have kids.
The answer lies in the initial question you posted: Would you really recommend IT to school kids evaulating future careers... Chances are that school kids who are interested in technology (especially programming) will be spending the majority of their lives this way... Sincerely, 23 year old single geek programmer. Not bitter, really.
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.