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10th Anniversary of Steve Jackson Games Raid
WhiteRabbit writes, "According to their Web site, March 1, 2000 is ten years to the day since the Secret Service raided Steve Jackson Games... for publishing a cyberpunk-style role-playing game supplement. This was one of the first cases in which the Electronic Frontier Foundation became involved.
More info at this page."
Yeah, guess so. The infowar is older than it seems, when you think about it. (first post :)
Hey look the feds raided my home for no good reason, I sue now and I won. Yay.
...and $250,000 of attorney fees? (that's 5/6 of the money for litigation costs) Really, if I had to lay off half of my employee because of this, I would have ask for more compensation. They have SJ Games lose three years worth of opportunity.
Hasdi
And we won. The judge gave the Secret Service a tongue-lashing and ruled for SJ Games on two out of the three counts, and awarded over $50,000 in damages, plus over $250,000 in attorney's fees
This is winning ? 5 times as much goes to lawyers as to the injured parties. Something in the US legal system needs to be changed to enable real people to combat big brother, be they the goverment or big company X.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Its a pretty good read, covers the Jackson Games Case as well as the other ones that occured aroud that time
C.
I sometimes write stuff
Fast forward ten years, and the only thing that's changed is who authorizes the raids: the MPAA and RIAA are hot on the heels of so-called pirates who are giving them an estimated 1.2 billion dollar surplus of funds, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act - perhaps the worst offender since the CDA only because it's more comprehensive and dangerous. A felony to use a digital-audio converter? Reminds me of how stealing cable access is a felony, but me taking a hammer to your car (doubtless costing much more loss of property) is only a gross misdemeanor.
"these times, they are a changin'"... it seems to underscore the one problem we seem to be missing - this isn't a fight over intellectual property or freedom of information as much as it's a fight to educate people. Sadly enough, most people get their information through the massive media organizations and evening news. People who can afford to put the word out on their wires are all the average consumer can hear. Our fight is an underground one - we're trying to save the freedom of the average consumer (both in the US and the world at large) against greedy corporations and they think we're the bad guys!
Well.. for what's it's worth Steve, thanks for sobering us up to this reality.. even if you didn't know you'd be making history when they showed up at your doorstep.
I would first like to ask if SJ Games, in their article, mean hackers or crackers when they say hackers.
Secondly I would like to mention that the Gubment's Search Warrant was based on a very very flimsy affidavit. And they still HAVEN'T returned all of the items they seized ten years ago.
This just goes to show that the gubment has actively been against all forms of irreverence. Which goes against the first amendment to the constitution.
I don't believe in this "National Security" crap. It is more like "Governmental Security. The Feds doing something illegal to scare the genral populus against these kinds of people.
Thank you and good night.
"A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions." Proverbs 18 : 2
Ewige Blumenkraft.
ZP
ICQ: 49636524
snowphoton@mindspring.com
Got Rhinos?
Even when the courts come out and say the Goons are wrong, all they end up doing is shoveling some taxpayer money back at the wronged party. I'll be willing to bet that no heads rolled at the Secret Service because of this particular incident -- what's the big deal about paying a fine when it's not your money in the first place? It's like when I found out that my company would pay my on-job parking tickets.
There ought to be some system of accountability to discourage government agents from degenerating into Goons -- maybe some way of allowing the courts to directly discipline government employees. In any case, I find it a bit disturbing that my hard-earned (well, earned) tax dollars are going to pay such stupid people.
----
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Fortunately, we all know the government these days knows it's bounds and wouldn't trample the liberties it's sworn to keep & protect.
So, don't think about the raid. Or Project Sundevil. Or Kevin Mitnick (who deserved some jail time, but didn't deserve 5 years and absurd treatment). Heck, even Waco & Ruby Ridge. It's just the government keeping you safe from yourself.
Oh, er, wait a second...
46. The Hobo smiles, his eyes glaze over, and he burps. "Beware the man who has lived longer than the Wasteland."
IMHO, this bears a striking resemblence to the Ramsey Electronics raid - guilt by association.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The little guy just ain't getting it, is he?
Could this be one of the first times that the authorities have picked out a scapegoat to quell the paranoid industry on their security issues. It seems to happen all the time now; The authorities wade into something they seem to know little or nothing about and attempt illegal prosecutions.
When oh when will they go out and hire some real experts?
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Seems like the same people with the same attitudes sure do get around. This article amounts to a time capsule; the scariest thing is that the attitude we see through this article bears an uncanny resemblance to the attitude that Jack guy (head of MPAA or was it RIAA?) has.
This story is worthy of /. One of the things many online personages (especially the young'uns) lack is a sense of historical perspective. This sort of thing should be dredged up once in a while, just to remind us all that the Man has been trying to f**k us for a loooong time. Can't say that the PTB don't have foresight, this was indubitably done to try and set a precedent against future users of the then-nascent "public" internet and BBS's. Unfortunately it backfired, guess the Feds got the "wrong" judge...
Too bad Leonard Peltier can't sue the FBI the same way...
Freedom: "I won't!"
I Didn't realize that they were still in business. I remember the raid shutting down there operation for several years. may small business would have folded. Good to see them back. I remember how many hours I killed playing Car Wars and Ogre.
For those who didn't know about it, this from their own page:
" Hacker is the original computer crime card game. This game was written by Steve Jackson as a satirical comment
on the Secret Service raid and the hacker community. The hacker community liked it. There's been no visible
reaction from the Feds. Hacker won the Origins Award for Best Modern-Day Boardgame of 1992. "
More info, but it's sold out.
This is not a signature.
They had the pleasure of meeting the SS too.
They were not raided because of GURPS Cyber-Punk. The reason the FBI raided them was that they had found a copy of information lifted from a phone company computer posted on their BBS. It set a lot of prescedents, and has a lot of signifigance in the field of cyber law
--Hephaestus Lee
"[Y]our wise men don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick." -- Ian Anderson
(Even if the guy -was- guilty, AND did something stupid at the office, at best any such evidence would be highly circumstantial, when it came to a case that was specifically about his activities at home. The chances are the Judge would throw the book at whoever ordered the raid, no matter what.)
But let's assume that, at some point, the Secret Service decided that the Cyberpunks game was "dangerous" or "criminal" in some way. I have yet to see anything by SJG to suggest they did, but let's make the assumption anyway. What then? It's "evidence", sure, but gathered in a raid concerning a totally independent activity. I'm not sure they'd have been able to use it.
Let's make another assumption, that they could have used it. What then? If it doesn't directly and demonstrably incite criminal activity, then it's just a book, covered by the first ammendment. That would be a tough nut for the Secret Service to crack.
Ok, let's make Yet Another assumption, that they could somehow have done so, that they could have found a way to interpret the law so as to legally be able to use the Cyberpunks information as evidence of directly inciting crime. Could they have won the case? That would depend on where the trial was held. The Secret Service aren't supposed to be involved in domestic investigations (except maybe of counterfeiting, forgery, et al), which would be right on the fringes of the Cyberpunk genre.
If the case was held in an area which was primarily dependent upon the Secret Service, in some way, for employment, stability or security, I can see a judge maybe giving them the benefit of the doubt in that one narrow field, and maybe requiring SJG to remove anything specifically dealing with counterfeiting or forgery from the game.
Anywhere else, though, the Secret Service wouldn't have a hope. It would be too tangental an argument. Without a direct, primary relationship, the judge would be perfectly within their rights to have those involved in the raid locked up for contempt of court, perjury and abuse of court time.
Although it should not be relevent, because SJG generates revenue in most States, and therefore States are earning money from SJG's business, I suspect most judges would follow SJG's tune, anyway. Most US court decisions seem to be based on financial benefit to their area, rather than the merits of the case.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
IO is also a strong linux supporter. All the servers there are running under some free software of one type or another, and you have pretty much a free hand in what you want to run off of your website, as far as mySql, php, etc..
Not to mention, having a nice, short domain name is a plus.
fnord
The secret service holds an interesting place in law enforcement. As part of the department of tresury you'd think they'd only be going after counterfitters? Well, not really. The SS (as I like to call them) is a gun for hire. Are you a powerful company or gov't office? Well the secret service is there for you.
In this case the SS was the lackie of Bell South. The big companies had lobbied congress for some goon-squad funding for "computer crime."
Which, to the Bell Souths defence was the only option since the FBI won't do jack for you unless they can get a couple good press confrences out of it. And back in 1990 these types of stories weren't news worthy. And the hacker computer back then didn't have any script kiddies. Wisdom pervailed and no one took down the Bell South E911 system. All they would have had is some guy went dumpster diving and found a document and put it online...Ooooooooooo.
So, the SS is now the lackie of Big Business, in this case Bell South. They target Kluepfel for having the document open to the public, and decide to mess with him and anyone he knows. Enter Steve Jackson Games.
At this point you should be thinking "Gee, smear tactics to label legit businesses... Trumped up charges and a drawn out legal battle designed to force someone out of business... Can you say MPAA? I though you could."
It's great to see the EFF pervail, but the since the case was won so long after the initial flap it's page 10 news. If anything this should be a reminder that it's been 10 years since SJG. Although things haven't gotten worse, they certainly haven't gotten better. There's a long road ahead, and we should be glad the EFF is there.
When these raids were happening the main fear of hackers was from people who thought we would start a war or something like that. But the defense department said that wasn't possible (and to some extent this was true) and at the same time ordered that many of us be rounded up.
Of course true hackers don't do blatently illegal things so they had to find some excuse to raid people's homes and businesses. This is EXACTLY like what happene before my lifetime in response to phreaks. This case is really different though. These people just made a RPG module that gives fantastic ways of hacking (or rather cracking) things that simply did not exist. (and by and large still do not) This was a direct attack on freedom of speech. If the Madison knew what the bill that he drafted would do to our society, the first ammedment to the constitution would have never happened.
The problem now remains. The authoritative evil people want us to conform to THEIR agenda and if we differ, well the seceret service has to come and stop us.
Ok, end ranting now
I am the penguin that codes in the night.
No. The Phrack document never existed on any of SJGames's files, including the BBS.
The Company was raided because the file DID show up on Lloyd Blankenship's personal underground BBS, and by coincidence, Lloyd also managed the Illuminati BBS.
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
I'd almost forgotten all about it..This was around the same time I was "dabbling" in the underground when I was a kid and I lived in Texas..This bust and other scares(including friends I knew online getting busted for ie cc fraud), plus new interests in high school :) , led me away. But it was fun while it lasted.. ;)
I sure miss that 0-7 day commodore 64 warez
It still amazes me that, ten years after the event, the real facts of this raid are obscured my half-truths, rumors, and all out lies.
The fact of the matter is that Steve Jackson Games practially BEGGED for the raid. They publically ridiculed the Secret Service and bragged about their exploints online. Furthermore, what everyone fails to mention (and is crucial) is that SJ Games had documents stating that they were ALLOWED TO BE SEARCHED wihtout a warrent at any time, as part of a bargain due to prior exploits. They had in fact waived the right of a search warrent.
Plus, it was well known that there were no less than 3 FULL TIME FBI agents working at SJG at the time of the raid not working in conjunction with the Secret Service but working AGAINST THEM. Two splinter groups had entirely different agendas (one was concerned with SJG and games piracy, the other with hijacking of sensitive national security data). The groups refused to work with one another and eventully destroyed not only SJG, but themselves.
The BBS had bomb recipes, beastial porn, oirated warez, and (more over) documents about a testing facility where a prototype stealth bomber was under production! The FBI was interested in the porn, the SS in the Bomber info.
The SS was well withing their rights to seize these documents when National Security is at risk. The FBI, on the other had, wanted to amass more evidence and didn't want to make a move on SJG until later.
Meanwhile, SJG is flaunting the porn, the docs, and even stolen hardware in BBS, usenet, and IRC. The hardware was junk, and bulk defective hardware was sold to mafia kingpin Joeseph Capello in Wilkesbury, PA. He and his organization wanted to take out SJG in a big way, but his plans were thwarted by the FBI and SS.
I'm really sick of all the bullshit that's flying around out there. Do some research before you post this crap. Shame on slashdot for propogating such nonsense as news.
Don't forget about the Craig Neidorf Search
on January 18/19 1990. That too was a major
event and the resultant trial a major defeat for the Secret Service.
Did dude ever get his stuff back?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I haven't seen most of them in years. Dana has a webcam and is currently the 13th sexiest geek the whole world. Unfortunately, I've lost track of most everyone else.
The raid is what introduced me to io.com, Dana, and the rest of the coolest group of people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing.
A lot of people on Slashdot seem to think that it wasn't much of a victory. I guess they don't understand what happened then. The supreme court decided that computers were printing presses. The supreme court decided that what happened was wrong. This doesn't mean that it can't and won't happen again but it does mean that it's not acceptable. When it does happen, it's a newsworthy event, not a daily fact of life. For that alone, I consider it a victory.
There are those who think SJG should have gotten more. I don't think they understand what the fight was about in the first place. The fight was about the ability to communicate. Could we talk to people and have a right to privacy? Could we print what we wanted to in an electronic forum? Did the government have the right to harass us for doing so? These were important decisions in those days. Without that case, the Internet as we know it, may well have not come to be. The freedoms we use to post on Slashdot came from that incident.
Yeah. It's been 10 years. Some of the stuff never was returned. Rumors said that we were killed during that whole purple Nike' sneaker suicide bit. My fanzine (Second Church of Ultimate wisdom) is gone. Dana is a sexy geek, instead of just being a brilliant sexy person. And the government is still performing illegal raids.
But at least now they're illegal.
-----
No Zen is good zen
Obviously this kind of activity (remember Norway) can take place anywhere on the globe, pressed by interested parties big enough. So if you run any kind of a minuscular server (web/mail/etc) anywhere, in order to secure your information against theft by bigger players, make deals with at least two equal partners to replicate all your information and services to prevent total DoS by natural disasters or governmental intervention.
Just 2% of my administrative paranoia.
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
I guess the moral of the story is that you should keep all of your back-ups off shore.
make deals with at least two equal partners
+ as widely distributed as possible, both geologically and governmentally
Almost missed half of my point.
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
CENSORSHIP of a game company
One night, I learned the perils of pouring hot grits down my pants. We had been on a pouring binge and I guess we got careless. Steve had heated the grits on a portable stove and while pouring we had neglected to turn the heat off before pouring. Thats when Steve grabbed the handle, and said, "Hey Sammy, here's some grits for ya!". He flung the hot molten grits at my crotch. I didn't feel the pain at first. It felt normal. The room became eirily quiet all of a sudden. I could feel my face turn red, but I still didn't know why. Then it hit me. I looked down at my red, bubbley, peeling penis, or what was left of it. The searing pain that hit me like a brick wall at 400MPH, was almost too much to bear. I ran into the bathroom, and laid in the tub. Turning on the cold water, the pain was even worse when the cold water hit my burning skin. Thats when I passed out. When I came to, Steve was gone. He left a note that said:
- I'm sorry sammy... I dont know how I
I hope you're reading this, Steve. I miss you. I forgive you. Please come back. So you can fork over some cash to pay for my penile replacement!can live with myself, knowing what
I did to you. I hope you can forgive me
some day.
Signed, Steve
Trolling for Scooby doo!
Isn't that creepy how the Secret Service can be abbreviated to "SS" anyway...
Lawyers in general piss me off a whole lot. They don't produce a product, and they provide for a service that is used far too often, and in the end, both parties get screwed, and the lawyer comes out ahead...even if he loses.
Take these Class Action Lawsuits, for example. I remember hearing a while back about them filing a class action lawsuit against Intel for the Pentium math bug. They got a list of every Pentium owner, and sued for them...without asking. The lawyers got something on the order of millions, and everyone else invovled got another Pentium...even though most of them weren't complaining about their chips malfunctioning. Who did that benefit? (Aside from AMD and Cyrix...) There needs to be a huge reworking of the legal system. Something that limits the amount of cash a lawyer can get. Price gouging, or something...sheesh...
Netjak.com independent reviews of domestic & import video ga
the current status of this guy's game company? As for a comment on the story - can't we at least say the system worked, albeit after quite some time and in an admittedly sad way? I, of course, am a bit perturbed by SJ getting 50K and his lawyers getting 250K (why does this country reward victim's lawyers more than the victim?) BUT - "the judge gave them a good tongue lashing" part at least *partly* proves the system works, sort of....right?
mas cerveza, por favor politically incorrect stu
The article/book by Bruce Sterling Hacker Crackdown gives a quite interesting background to the raid.
For different printable formats, go to the EFF 's Bruce Sterling - Hacker Crackdown - Archive.
If a trainstation is the place where trains stop, what is a workstation?
Where are the Secret Service agents, the prosecutors in the case, and the Bell South people who sicced the Secret Service on SJG? It would be very informative to find out how the case affected their careers. It would also be a warning to stay away from these people in future dealing on computer security issues.
Seriously, Steve was a gaming friend of mine back in the days - I even had him as Gaming Guest of Honor for Westercon in Vancouver, BC, Canada.
It was a real shame, because of all of us SMOGs, he had the heaviest investment in tech - and they took his computers and literally broke them in pieces, returning the broken chips and motherboards in plastic bags (at least, that's what he told me).
Yes, they can do that. And they still can. Those laws haven't changed, and aren't likely too in the near future, except to get more drastic as we change our Nation's Enemy List from drug kingpins to hackers and crackers.
In honor of Steve, I ask that everyone go out and have some sushi for lunch today (his favorite).
Will in Seattle
In ten years time hopefully we will be looking back at the upcoming DeCSS desicion with the sense victory....
"Do you think we could wipe out world hunger forever if scientists figured out how to make AOL's Free CD's edible?"-
of the day my mistrust of the government extended to their definition and treatment of "computer crimes."
I shared this story with just about everybody I knew after hearing about it, it was such a ridiculous case.
Check out the article below (from 2/17/2000). Although it involves a case related to criminal activities, the charges imply that *anybody* simply in possession of L0phtcrack is committing a felony.
This is important because L0phtcrack, if you are not familiar with the software program, is widely used (legitimately!) by Network and Security Administrators, and Security Consultants for Network and System Security Audits.
Logical extrapolation of the charges mentioned in the article implies that Microsoft is guilty of a number of felonies, and conspiracy to commit numerous additional felonies, in Minnesota, because they manufacture the NT Resource Kit, a favorite "criminal hacker tool". In fact, anybody in possession of the popular Unix "Crack" program, in the state of Minnesota, is surely also guilty.
-----
http://www.channe l4000.com/news/stories/news-20000217-164727.html
According to this article (and a Hopkins Minnesota police department), it is a felony to posess l0phtcrack. Two people were charged with
"...two counts of possession of burglary or theft tools (specifically, a software program for extracting user IDs and passwords from a computer
system). "
Later, the articles explains that these two people '...accessed the VP Projects computer system and installed a software program called LOphtCrack, which is designed to extract user IDs and passwords. "
According to the article, its also a felony to attempt to gain access using it as well as another felony when you actually gain access.
-----
-- ken williams
Actually, this was extremely bad for SJG. It crippled his production, he lost a lot of his critical data and customer info, and took away his focus (Steve's) and the momentum that he had. If you could have seen him at the WorldCon in New Orleans, where he saved the day by loaning us two of his (at the time) souped-up PCs so I could recode the dBase programs for Guest Registration and Events (basically, the panel lists for the Authors and suchlike).
Man, what a shame!
Will in Seattle
Where are the Secret Service agents, the prosecutors in the case, and the Bell South people who sicced the Secret Service on SJG?
They're probably anti-hacker experts now, pulling down more than $150K. Probably promoted to the upper echelons of the SS, too.
Will in Seattle
a few things to keep in mind ...
- criminal intent
- "technologically challenged" District Attorney
- appeals court
-- ken williams
where are the decent moderators?
Sheesh, apparently the moderators today feel like wasting points.
I agree that the post was very on topic. Time to do some meta moderation.
this post getting moderated down for the last two words, while the balance of it IS on topic, is stupid. there ought to be a law.
I'm not saying to ignore anything. I'm giving you a legitimate chance to show whatever proff you have of your description of events, which to put it lightly, are highly unlikely at best. Who'd continue to run a company with 3 FBI agents working against them?
Ignore the problem?! WHAT PROBLEM?! If your tale is correct, then the FBI is perfectly justified in it's actions and there is no problem, and hence no need to be outraged. Chill on the attitude pal, I'm as free as a I ever was, and I'm not taking crap away from your "indepenace", what ever the hell that may be...and if anyone's filled with hate...that'd be you, wouldn't it?
Netjak.com independent reviews of domestic & import video ga
One obscure aspect of the SJG incident that was interesting to me was the WWIV BBS that SJG was running at the time of the raid. Wayne Bell, who wrote WWIV, testified at the trial about how he was able to look at the files on the confiscated computer and tell that someone had used the sysop privilege to read through all the private email on the BBS one by one, deleting them as he/she went. Because of a peculiarity of how the BBS was written, the evidence that someone had done that was retained on the BBS until (I think, not sure now) the user actually logged in again. Since that never happened, Bell was able to provide a smoking gun that the authorities not only took the BBS, but actually read through the private communication stored on it. This was a significant factor in SJG's victory, since this sort of behavior was specifically outlawed by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (or something like that).
I was a WWIV sysop at the time, and found this whole aspect of the case very interesting.
Even though I've moved on, to Usenet and Web development and all that, I still think back fondly on the amazingly vibrant communities that sprang up around old 286s running WWIV off a single phone line and a 2400-baud modem. That's our history (for some of us, anyway). It's where we came from, and it's where a lot of the sensibilities we share came from. I think about that sometimes when I'm trying to explain to a marketing droid why our company shouldn't use spam as a promotional tool, or should be concerned about the privacy rights of people who submit information on our Web site.
I understand that a lot of you probably feel that what was done to Steve Jackson games was unwarranted. But, for a monument, put yourself in the position of Law enforcement. They can't be expected to know everything about the computer world. These guys were selling and distributing documents that clearly laid out plans for hacking computer systems. Yes, these were fictional systems (although, the techniques described could easily be applied to real systems running at the time), but how could we expect the FBI to know that?
If you were distributing a filer that said "How to make LSD in your basement, for fun and profit", wouldn't you expect the cops to come and arrest you? Even if the document didn't really tell people how to make the stuff, and you were doing it as a joke. No, they should arrest you, and then let you go if it was discovered that you really didn't commit a crime. No one was permanently arrested here (in fact, no one was actually arrested. They just had their toys taken away).
Law enforcement has a responsibility to uphold the law, mistakes are sometimes made. Better safe then sorry. (and don't get me started about this whole Diallo shooting thing)
[ c h a d   o k e r e ]
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
that was ment to be an annonoymously posted troll. Please moderate it down as such (I don't really think that way :P)
There are a lot of parallels between this and the Diallo shooting if you think about it, although that situation is much, much worse. I mean, do you really need to shoot someone 19 times to stop them? I think those cops should be fired at least.
[ c h a d   o k e r e ]
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Does the story sound at all like the raid on the California office in the Cryptinomicon to anyone else? Small coincidence perhaps since some of the old io.com regulars are mentioned in the books credits? :)
Hi Doug!
GamesDK
Thank you.
Ok, this is probably off topic so sue me.
Question: Is cyberspace governed by laws regarding speech or property?
Case in point: A hacker breaks into a computer, looks around, downloads a few document and leaves. Is this a crime? Well he has essentially committed electronic breaking and entering. If he did that you your house and got caught he would be going to jail. But today, if he gets caught he gets charged with stealing said documents, which aren't really worth much at all no matter how sensitive the information they contain is, so he gets a slap on the wrist.
Does there need to be an stronger electronic equivalent to B&E in the information age? Is there one since IANAL?
So far I've gotten all my Karma from telling people they are wrong... :)
Well, I wasn't the moderator but I agree with his (her) decision. The post seemed like a "quickie" post that was meant to look like a valid post but was really just a first post in disguise. It really added nothing to any discussion, and the words "first post" clue in that the fellow was looking to post anything in order to get up front.
If it was mis-moderated, I don't think it was severe enough to warrant meta-moderation.
-rt-
** Evil Canadians are taking over the world. Learn about the conspiracy
I hope a similar outcome occurs in the Ramsey Electronics raid case. Makers of electronic kits are scarce enough w/o the feds having a fit of paranoia. You can help by filling out the form if you own or would like to buy any of the small FM 'wireless mics' they used to sell. Bastards.
<PARODY>Look! K-Mart is selling TELESCOPES!! Those can be used to spy thru people's windows!!! RAID!!!!!!!!</PARODY>
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
It's a shame that illegal search-and-seizure of a legitimate business must be equated with stealing the intellectual property of the music industry.
I'm sorry.
I don't like the MPAA or the RIAA either.
And they're just damn wrong about DeCSS, as we all know.
But they do own the copyright to all that music that people steal. And that's illegal, and undefendable. I don't like the big music companies any more than you do. But crime is not the answer -- if we're going to preserve our personal freedoms, we have to be above such things.
People, if you don't like big media companies that screw artists and consumers alike, don't buy from them. You're not giving the artists a cent, we all know, by buying the CDs. Go to the concerts (on tour is how most artists make money). Buy CDs from small indie music houses that focus on the artists, and on doing what's different, instead of more of the same drivel. But don't steal. That just gives them more ammunition and reason for laws that take away privacy.
You have my attention. Now, please present hard facts, documents whatever to support your claim. I'd be very interested in hearing it. You claim Slashdot should have done some research before posting this story. Okay, fair enough. Sounds like you did. Now, exactly where did you get your information?
My favorite piece of fallout from the Secret Service raid is this:
By confiscating the Illuminati Online server, they effectively launched it from being an obscure BBS into being a nicely profitable Internet provider.
Steve should send them a thank-you card every year on this date.
We should be seeing a JonKatz story on it any day, with a followup story a week later including letters from the people who worked at SJG at the time.
Out of the original bbs grew io.com (full disclosure: my isp), and I believe it is being run by his brother. Steve Jackson games is still alive and well, and there is much overlap between them and Illuminati Online
IMHO, io.com is probably the best overall ISP in the Austin area, so if you want a shell account w/ all the bells and whistles you should check it out. No, I'm not getting any kickbacks for this, just passing on what I consider to be useful info for the /. crowd.
The real reason for the raid was not that they were worried about GURPS Cyberpunk teaching how to hack...
...Someone was worried about Gurps Illuminati and Warehouse 23
--
I don't suffer from insanity- I enjoy it immensly!
Of course you must be right, you posted it on Slashdot, the home of the cyberconspiracists.
The Secret Service did nothing wrong, it was all Bell South's doing. After all, SJG and Illuminati BBS was infinging on their turf!
You can be as paranoid as you want to be about big business (aka anyone who makes more money than you), but nothing will get fixed until the real culprits are put on a tight leash.
The real criminal in this case was the US Government. The solution isn't to break the baby bells up further, or to deny hollywood filmmakers the right of association, or to prevent anyone from making more money than you. Instead, it is to ensure that laws are applied equally to everyone, including the government.
Let's accept, for the sake of argument, the spurious claim that Bell South approached the US Secretary of the Treasury with an offer to hire the Secret Service, for the express purpose of eliminating a BBS that wasn't obsequious enough for them. Now let's assume that the guv'ment had to follow the same laws as everyone else. In this case, Bell South might as well as hire the mafia as the Secret Service, since the raid would have been a criminal act of extortion and theft.
If you make the laws apply to everyone equally, then lobbying by the filthy evil anti-linux megacorps will stop, since there would be no way to get exclusive legal priviledges.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Isn't Ticketmaster affiliated with the RIAA in some way?
I'm just wondering how much, if any, the "big media" companies get from concerts?
Excusing the fact that I'm discussing "musical talent" that I don't care for but take, for example, Britney Spears or that all-boy group, LipSync (I think that's right...I don't watch Mtv anymore). Now, Britney used to be a cheerful little mouseketeer and so did one of the LipSync'ers. When flipping past the Disney channel on my way to Sci-Fi, I see them, quite often, playing their concerts. Disney is a really powerful media corporation...after all, they control ABC.
Who says that these "musical talents" weren't generated by Disney? That Mickey doesn't have his little fingers deep into this industry?
They don't publicly announce that, I'll admit...but they don't exactly annouce that they fund studios in the adult entertainment industry either.
Well, I suppose I should apologize for the rant and the FUD, since I can't substantiate my suspicions with cold, hard facts but be wary of how you support artists. Things aren't always what they seem.
-Vel
I get this strange urge to yell "Remeber the Alamo!"
Before the raid they were planning to put out a new version of Triplanetary. They got distracted. I still miss it.
This isn't about a relation between the two groups, but rather of the methodology they employ in achieving their goals. The RIAA, SS, MPA, CIA, NSA, FBI... all of them use the media to achieve their objectives. Don't you get it? By controlling the media, they control public perception. By controlling that, they can lock people up for unconstitutionally long times, violate their rights, and generally screw them over AND have the public think they're right! They defeated the one pillar of democracy that MUST remain intact: our checks-and-balances system went right out the window.
THAT is why they are alike.
It's interesting to note that the FBI doesn't generally come in to play in porn issues. It's actually the US Customs department. In a past life I had dealings with them several times for porn coming from users of an ISP I worked for.
First you tell me everything is right there in black and white...then you tell me that you can't show me the documents. I'm not saying they don't exist because they're not in a digital format, I'm saying they don't exist because *I*, nor anyone else, can see them.
And you, you're just some walking mass of internal conflict...first you go around saying that you're afraid of the SS...then you say they're good, I'm having the hardest time actually figuring out what you want.
You are the biggest spaz I've seen in eons. First off, nobody "signs" a birth certificate but your parents. You talk about having freedom and crap, and then you go off and berate everyone who doesn't believe you because you don't have sufficient information. If everyone went around believing everything that was said without doing any research, we'd all be yelling that the sky was falling all the damn time.
Now if what you're saying is the truth, I understand what you feel, you're backed into a situation where nobody believes you, and they only way you have to prove it might get you fucked. But understand everyone else's side of the story, you're trying to dissuade everyone's belief in something that's common knowledge with nothing more than your Anonymously Cowering word. I'm sorry man, I don't believe in jack shit that way.
Netjak.com independent reviews of domestic & import video ga
He was launching massive attacks at NSA computers from the SJG PBX too. He's part of the international Jewish consipiracy too. The Jews are in it with the gray aliens so they can harbor Chinese soldiers with black helicopters in salt mines in Utah. The day of the one world baby killin-anti-god-communist-queers are upon us!
http://www.sjgames.com/
--- Bill, partially responsible for the One of Disks...
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Five dead. Yeah, that's a lot. Ever hear of (forgive my spelling) the Serbs? Or Tianmen Square? Or the Hutus and the Tutsis? Hundreds of thousands dead.
You would today take away a right that admittedly costs dozens or hundreds of lives every year. In return, will you give us the guarantee that the government will NEVER become hostile to its citizenry? Before you answer, think about how authorities in this country treat minorities. Consider how short a distance it is from their current repressive behavior to genocide.
And for the record, I don't own a gun and probably never will. But I don't go around trying to force MY views on people that I can't protect.
and as soon as we cross the line where we are breaking the law (even in so trivial a way as playing an mp3 file we haven't paid for the CD of), we give validity to their arguments.
I had a conversation with Dean Paul Fowler here at CMU, about the line between protecting the University from lawsuits by the industry and academic freedom. One of the things he pointed out is that whenever an industry of that size goes to court or Congress and says, "We're losing money because of this illegal activity," you can bet there's going to be a rapid response from those with the power. And that's going to affect everyone else. We have to pick our fights, and make sure we're really on the moral high ground here.
We have to be able to respond with an unconditional, "No laws are being broken but our rights are being violated." I can't simultaneously tell the industry to go screw itself and apologize for my cohorts who are stealing their product (however much money they make despite that theft).
The latter clause is what allows police officers etc. to get away with murder (literally) -- as long as they are abiding by the policies and procedures regulating their job, you have recourse only against the hiring agency, not against the individual officer. If official Goon Squad policy is to get one of those bogus overly-broad search warrants for all "hacker" cases, then the Goon Squad can be held liable, but the individual offices are indemnified (except in cases of violation of the Constitition -- it doesn't matter whether said violation is official policy or not, doing it can result in you being individually sued).
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Oh yeah, murder can only occur in the presence of firearms.
A few years ago a stupid fuck took his automobile through the chain link fence of an elementary school and ran over and killed several children. What's the difference between that and a schoolyard shooting?
Face it, criminals do not heed the law (which is why they're criminals). They will always have guns, even if they have to import them from China via COSCO. When one of them breaks into my house armed with an illegal weapon, what do you want me to do? Call the cops and tell the thug to wait ten minutes until they arrive? Fuck that!
If you want to place yourself at the mercy of criminals, so be it. Sure, go ahead and praise Sharon Stone for turning in her guns while she still has armed guards on the payroll. Idolize the hypocrites.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
It wasn't clear back then that electronic media had full First Amendment rights in the U.S. There was a lot of talk that they'd be subject to the sort of restrictions applied to TV and radio, under FCC jurisdiction. The Steve Jackson Games and Neidorf cases settled that issue, and paved the way for the uncensored World Wide Web we have today.
And it worked. Anybody can start a web site. All the nuts have web sites, and nobody cares. Yes, there's a lot of grousing from the right, and we have to keep watching for new censorship schemes, but censorship lost.
John Nagle
(Of course, that's not why the whole thing happened. The whole hacker crackdown was caused by an administrative screwup. The FBI and the Secret Service agreed by memo that the Secret Service would take over computer crime cases, the thinking being that the SS, which is part of Treasury and handles fraud-against-the-government stuff, knew something about computers. They didn't, but they were under pressure to Do Something, so they went off in the wrong direction. In a way, this worked out well, because they brought such dumb cases that the cases could be definitively won on First Amendment grounds. It would have been much worse if they'd gone after somebody who was actually doing something bad, like promoting a stock fraud and happened to be running a BBS as part of the fraud. We could have ended up with a whole regulatory structure for BBSs, and growing the Web would have been uphill all the way.)
Wow, i've heard that the US government hired a bunnch of Nazis after WW2 but i also thought that they were only scientists. Never knew the government were interested in Hitler's private units (just j/k, i know you meant Secret Service :-) ).
Look, your "story" is very touching, and I'd love to believe it except:
In your first post you say it was "well known" that there were 3 FBI agents at SJG. Now you say you were undercover.
Second, why would you grab the evidence and bury it? If it was obvious that a bust was going to go down from the SS, why did you care what happened to SJG? It wasn't your ass. You didn't have anything to hide. You were trying to get them, the only reason you say you were working against the SS was because you wanted to amass more evidence...why didn't you just give the SS the evidence you had since you weren't going to get a chance to amass any more?
Third, and most importantly...if you were one of the FBI agents that worked there, the SS knows who you are, and so does the FBI. And know that you've gone and told everyone that you faked your wife's death, and hid all the documents in her coffin, they can just go search her coffin for it. Because if they know who you are, and they know where you live, they know where you buried your "wife". If if they just know who you are they can just search for death certificates, and find out where you buried your wife. If you truly were as panicked as you say you were about revealing info...you wouldn't have gone ahead and revealed any of this stuff.
You've got a great story man, and it'd be really interesting if it were true, but as it is, I see more plot holes and inconsistencies in this tale than I do in most Hollywood productions. Take care man...keep loving your wife.
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So what's that incompetent goof doing now? I want to stay far away from anyplace he might be working. Wouldn't want any of that guilt by association stuff to rub off on me, ya know.
You spelled Vaseline wrong, monkeyboy!
Sheesh! Next time just copy the letters verbatim off the jar that we know you keep right next to the keyboard.
I did a little fact checking, the public service is only 8hours/week, the drawing prohibition only applies to "obscene" drawing and the fine was actually paying for psych testing. The details are a little off (hey, this was 3 years ago) but the gist is correct.
Of course, this did allow Diana to sell more copies of The Worst of Boiled Angel.
What kind of people actully play gurps???
Well most of the ones i know were geeks, nerds, or general social outcasts like myself. It would then seem obvious that people of these nature are prone to using computers. Thus they are more likey to get intrested in their high-end uses.
I as a hacker (if you think hackers are bad you need to get with the real world, oh wait hackers build the real world....) know that playing gurps and any other rpg is nothing like real life, and enen the best versions really can't teach you jack about being a hacker (good), a cracker (bad) or any other of the sterotypes we are currently using for ourselves.
RPGs dont teach people to hack, crack, phreak or any other thing, there just games! The Feds were way out of line attacking STG that way.
I'm not nitpicking. If I wanted to, you'd see a much larger writeup. Those were major points, and you have *NO* comebacks for them. I therefore, declare you a unknowledgable, lying, hate filled little troglodyte. You have been exposed, and your only recourse so far has been to insult everyone...you little high schooler.
I'm not trying to reconstruct any events...Any reconstruction has been done by you, and nobody but you. Everyone else sees the facts? Please, is that why you're getting laughed off this board? You go on worrying about who and how you're being watched. Make sure there aren't any peeping toms at your window, and spout meaningless hate-filled platitudes at everyone you see. I'm sure that's something that, even you can live up to.
Oh, and as to your "hating minorities" thing, I am a "minority". But, I've wasted enough time on you, you have nothing productive to say, and only lies to spread. Go back to your chain e-mails, and remember...
"Ey-----"
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that if we don't like laws, we can just ignore them? Even if the laws are perfectly constitutional and backed by centuries of precedent?
The fact that it's illegal to duplicate recordings isn't anything new. And it doesn't take away any of my freedom (except where my freedom would infringe upon others' freedom, namely the owners of the copyright).
Using DeCSS to decrypt your DVD and play it in Linux is not wrong.
Copying mp3 files without compensating the copyright holders is wrong.
There's a world of difference. As a community, we need to grow up and accept that.
...
I'm a paranoid m********ker and I'm rabid about protecting my privacy.
I detest consumerism.
I avoid debt.
I work way more than 10 hours a day.
I vote, and I use my vote (and my voice) to protect my rights (how many of the rest of you vote? I bet more of you should).
And theft is still wrong. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to like the industry. Theft is not the answer.
I was wondering if anyone who was involved in the Craig Neidorf case would post.
I remember that Craig asked for donations from 'the community' to help defray his lawyer bills. I remember the amount was over 100,000 US Dollars, and he got some small amout of like $200 dollars.
So, does anyone have the final $ figures as to what it takes to defend ones freedom and how little was donated to Craig?
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
What, so black male teenagers need to dress up in suits and faggoty nation of islam bowties all the time?
Whatever. People shouldn't be singled out for dressing the way they dress just beacuse a small persentage of them are gang-banging dope dealers.
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ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The author of the GURPS Cyberpunk book, one Loyd Blankenship, AKA "The Mentor", was a member of the LEGION OF DOOM hacking group that was infamous in the 80s and early 90s.
The raid had very little to do with the game he was writing and everything to do with the fact that the government had reason to believe he was involved in a number of real, illegal cracking incidents.
Having said all of that, clearly the government overstepped its bounds in the SJGames raid and deserved to be pushed back by the EFF, et al, but SJGames is now engaging in REVISIONIST HISTORY by claiming they were raided simply because of the subject matter of the game!!!
I should know, I'm from around the shit-laced hellhole.
There's a great filk song by Leslie Fish (the queen of filk) that refers to this incident. It's called "Gamers" nee "This Game is Real" at http://www.prometheus-music.com/eli/virtual.html
"...virtue springs from iron within, not lead without." R. Kipling
(And, in case you're wondering, ever single MP3 with one I have is made from CDs I own at home or work. They've all been purchased legally & are undistributed except in that I use MP3 & a fast network connection so I don't have to carry them back and forth. The one exception is a recording of the Napolean XIV "They're Coming to Take Me Away", which I was unable to buy locally. If anyone has a source, that will be remedied.)
Zoinks! Scoob! Hide all the kiddie porn! It's the FBI!
Netjak.com independent reviews of domestic & import video ga
For those of you interested and/or in the vicinity, Steve Jackson will be the guest of honour at Fastaval 2000 - widely recognized as the Danish gaming convention. More info here. (All pages in Danish)
Anywho, Steve's earliest explanations of the raid, and why it targeted SJG, went roughly as follows:
- BellSouth document stolen by LoD, posted on a BBS
- Document propagated across BBS space
- Document wound up on Loyd's BBS
- SJG raided since (a)Loyd had ties to LoD, and (b)Loyd was also Illuminati BBS sysop
- SS found drafts for a "handbook of computer crime" and used that as an excuse to confiscate everything, even laser printers
Loyd was indeed "the Mentor," but beyond his association with the LoD, I didn't know anything. I did not specifically see or hear of the document being on Illuminati BBS, but I wouldn't be surprised - it could have found its way there in any number of ways. That information was never stated by Steve, or Loyd, or SJG. Also, if I recall correctly, Loyd's own BBS at his home was siezed, too.
SJG did later sue the Feds for (among other things) prior restraint, siezing the book before it was published. If Steve is now implying that they were raided because of the book, then that's indeed a misrepresentation. Good marketing, though.
P.S. Since others are claiming their credit, my own 15 microseconds of fame were for the Slightly Off White Box (the existance of which the government firmly denies fnord).
I can see the fnords!
"A handgun ... has and only one use: killing humans."
If you want to use those terms, fine. But it would be much more accurate to say that their purpose is to meet deadly force with deadly force. You don't use guns to defend yourself against knives. You use them to defend yourself against other guns. The proper use of handguns is only for practice, hunting and dire emergencies.
"But what about people who acquire guns legally and then go crazy and go on a killing spree?"
If you'll recall, those assholes at Columbine also weilded pipe bombs. The reason there was no outcry to ban pipe bombs is because they were already illegal. If the guns they used were illegal, they still would have had the bombs!
These senseless killings, particularly against children, stir at our emotions so much that many people turn off their brains and let their feelings rule. Banning guns is treating the symptom but letting disease continue to fester. Guns were just as widely available in the first half of this century as they are now. Yet no one ever heard of schoolyard shootings until a couple of decades ago. This disease has become an epidemic of death because people are too focused on the symptoms.
"DOES A GUN IN THE HOME MAKE YOU SAFER?"
What a stupid article. What stupid statistics. Don't you realize that people who own an automobile are 22 times more likely to die in an automobile accident than those who don't? Don't you realize that those who own a swimming pool have a 220% greater chance of their children accidentally drowning than those that don't?
Owning a handgun and keeping it locked up in a safe in the basement won't protect anyone any better from crime. But not owning a gun while putting a sign in your window saying you do is very effective.
"You are blinded by NRA propaganda into thinking a gun makes you safe in your home when the truth is quite the opposite."
And you are deluded by the liberal press into believing that banning guns solves crime. Murder has been outlawed for how many millenia now? Five or six? If banning murder doesn't stop murder, you're smoking dope if you think banning guns will eliminate guns.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
The Secret Service is a division of the treasury department. They are tasked with stoping counterfiet money production (and other treasury related tasks) and protecting the president.
National secrets are the domain of the NSA, FBI, or other Intelegence beauros, not the SS.
They had no reason to be involved in this.
>If you'll recall, those assholes at Columbine also weilded pipe bombs. The reason there was no outcry to ban pipe bombs is because they were already illegal. If the guns they used were illegal, they still would have had the bombs!
It might be relevant that the pipe bombs did not work, because the guys didn't make them right; the guns did work.
Kleupfel was one of the defendants in the SJG suit. SAIC is a privately held defense contractor. SAIC is also heavily involved in a lot of content protection technology, snooping technology, etc. SAIC has a very carefully groomed public image, and they might not care to take the heat for employing someone involved in a civil rights violation.
But, as I'm sure they'd tell you, they're not employing him, he's a consultant.
Either way, he's making bucks off his escapades against Those Nasty Hackers TM.
Will in Seattle
the SJ Games/Gurps Cyberpunk raid you commemorate...but not St. Tib's day -- steeped in
Internet tradition.
For shame!
The problem is not the bombs or the guns or the knives or the sticks. The problem is that the nation is hemorrhaging to death and you want to ban bleeding.
When someone can tell my why I was safer as a child thirty years ago when assault weapons were legal, than children are today when they are not, then I'll listen to their gun control arguments.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
SJ Games is doing no such thing. WhiteRabbit misinterpreted something somewhere along the way. SJG has never claimed the raid happened because of the subject matter of GURPS Cyberpunk, because the government was completely unaware of Cyberpunk until they examined the hard disks after the raid. Basically, the government knew that Mentor worked for SJG, and that SJG had a bulletin board. That's all they knew. They were on a fishing expedition. They thought they found a big one with GURPS Cyberpunk. Boy, were they wrong.
At any rate, whoever moderated this post up wasted their points. It was either a complete troll or completely uninformed, and either way it doesn't deserve a mapping into the realm of positive integers.
--
Someone you trust is one of us.
10 years ago, under east-quad, they said it was just a game we were play testing. Look where we ended up now.
;-)
Not a "hacker" or "cracker" out of the bunch of us.
fwiw, if TimC really was the deranged computer god he played. Than what about the rest of us? AM, SH, L(G)(S)(H) might not have been acting, I wasn't.
PH
Easy. 30 years ago, people *KNEW* each other. You knew your neighbours, the neighbourhood. People walked along the streets.
Today, more people are isolated from their neighbours, yet connected to the world. Do you see, visit and chat with your neighbours everyday? You might, but why not ask more people? Thus, if you shoot someone, you were literally shunned in the neighbourhood, because everyone knows everyone else.
Freak the Mundanes!
You'll notice that that was post #104 on slashdot today. You should really read post 105 where I clarified my position....
[ c h a d   o k e r e ]
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
New York, Chicago, Los Angeles all existed thirty years ago, and they were just as big then as they are now. But that's begging the point. My home town had a population of 10,000. When I was growing up, it hadn't had a murder since the Dalton brothers rode through town a century earlier. Today, the town has a population of 15,000. It's still small enough that people know their neighbors. Yet it has had about five murders in ten years. Also, if you take a look at Columbine, everyone knew their neighbors. There's something else beyond 'connectedness' that's the problem.
And I don't think there's any one single cause behind the recent random violence in society. It stems from several causes. Your supposition may work in the big city, but it is by no means the only cause, and hardly explains Columbine or the rise of gangs in Small Town, USA.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
I think this guy is has a really really bad memory.. After all this happend 10 years ago.
But this guy seems to have taken all kinds of unrelated BBS raids and placed them all at SJG.
This was a long time ago and a lot of strange things did happen. Getting tagged for software piracy becouse you tossed the manual is one example (It's how you turn a software theft case from 3 illegal copys to 50 illegal copys.. Turnning a nieve user with 3 illegal programs into a collection of illegal software)
I don't actually exist.
Brit here.
We have huge gun control legislation, as a result of various incidents of people shooting lots of other people. Handguns are basically illegal.
Now, we have a higher crime rate than the US - not much, just a little - in all areas bar one. Murder. US murder rates are so much higher than UK it isn't funny.
Sure, there are illegal weapons, but not that many. Over here, I haven't got a clue where I'd get a gun from. Cross the Atlantic and it becomes a LOT easier to get one. If the guns aren't in widespread circulation, protection from other guns simply isn't an issue.
Fact is, guns don't kill, people kill. But fact is also that people with guns kill a lot more easily than people without guns.
I can't simultaneously tell the industry to go screw itself and apologize for my cohorts who are stealing their product (however much money they make despite that theft).
It is not that I condone theft in any way, but, it is widely though that they make more money BACAUSE of the theft as opposed to making money DESPITE the theft.
We mus always remember that in this realm, when you steal it, they still have it! Thus, a lot of our gut feelings about theft do not apply. That is not to say that it is not still theft and that some of our feelings apply, it just means that we MUST be very careful in our thinking and analogies.
and as soon as we cross the line where we are breaking the law (even in so trivial a way as playing an mp3 file we haven't paid for the CD of), we give validity to their arguments.
The problem here is that you have already bought their LIES! I have, and PLAY, many mp3 files that I haven't paid for the CD of and all legally. Every heard of mp3.com? (Just one example.) Also, please see the following parallel example:
and as soon as we cross the line where we are breaking the law (even in so trivial a way as playing an cassette tape of songs we recorded from FM and we haven't paid for the CD of), we give validity to their arguments.
Face it, the big boys would like to make you pay everytime you hum their tunes. They have lobbied and gotten copyrights extendedto an extent that AFAICS (see not tell) goes against the constitution. Perhaps their laws are unconstitutional and immoral but have just not been found to be so yet. Perhaps they will get worse before they get better.
I do think we would be better off just to give up their products en masse. Also, support the little guys who have resisted playing with these big boys. I am well on my way to making these changes in my life, what about you? (Those of you who don't like the current situation that is.)
Bob Clip - friend of A Nony Mouse
ps. I am not thinking all that clearly right now and am too rushed to proof this, so forgive any foolishness please.
NB: If you don't understand it, read the above post.
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,