Slashdot Mirror
Tampered Athlons Hit Oz
"This is some very bad news -- thanks to Tim for alerting us. Rather than paraphrase, I will just quote his email:
'Well it looks like they [fake Athlons] have hit Australia I just recieved my K700 from [an undisclosed source] in perth and have opened it up to put the cold plate on it and to my horror the cpu is a 650 ... the resistor has been changed and serial numbers do not match ...'
We managed to get some pictures of the Athlon in question, and all the pictures are posted, including a summary with each picture, and help for those interested in finding out if their CPU has been tampered with.
More details are available on our frontpage.
We are working on finding an easy way (ie, for 'general' consumption) for those possibly affected to test their processor, and any updates will be posted, again, on our main page :)
Kind Regards,
Lucien Wells.
---
Lucien Wells
Editor/Assistant Reviewer & HTML Developer,
TechWatch"
The well-labeled pictures also serve as a primer to understanding the cryptic labels on the side of your processor. But as Lucien points out, checking this out will void your warranty.
couldn't you just check the L2 cache frequency on the athlon? Don't 650's have a 1/3 divider so a 650@700 would be at 233 and 700's have a 1/2 divider (=350mhz)? So you could easily (providing you can find out the l2 cache speed) figure out if you've got a overclocked athlon. Hmm... worth investigating maybe...
the warranty has nothing to do with it
The warranty has everything to do with it.
If you want to find out if you have a counterfeit CPU, you have to void your warranty. Sure, it may be counterfeit in which case voiding the warranty does not matter (since you can get a refund). But your CPU may very well not be counterfeit, in which case you have lost your warranty. You must of forgotten about this.
(Aside to the technically clueful: shhhh! If this fool can't figure out that there isn't 3 years of reliability data for even the latest Intel processors, and that some bozo has made him switch his decision based upon reliability info that doesn't exist, let's play bounce-a-fool).
I guess this is a troll, and I bit. Or more likely, just some Intel FUDster.
...just like Intel did a few years ago, for the exact same reason.
The difference is that Intel still gets bashed on the HW review sites for "hating overclockers" or "jacking up the clock rate 50MHz but not letting us do it to our own chips", while AMD will be congratulated for protecting consumers from being sold remarked chips.
Anyone want to take the bet?
If you thought you were buying an A7700 but got a 650 instead, the seller is legally obligated to return the product for refund. the warranty has nothing to do with it
An overclocked chip will look like the overclocked chip they are claiming it is. Overclock your AMD 650 to 700 and look again. It'll just say cpu MHz: 700.00, bogomips 700.xx whatever. cpuinfo is NOT a very good test. Remember, people put these things in and configure them to the stated speed they bought them as (or faster if they are overclocking). Essentially what they're going to end up doing is just overclocking the chips.
I'll be truly glad when Slot1 and Slot A are off the scene, the cartridge packaging is too easy for counterfeiters to take advantage off, this is why Intel started clock locking the PII's, because they discovered the slot1 package is too easy taken advantage of, not previously a serious problem with socketed chips.
I'm not saying this type of scam wont exist when Socket A and FC370 chips are prevalent, but a remarked socketed chip would probably stand out like a saw thumb.
Also, there is another issue that has been around way before remarking, people buying complete computer systems that are overclocked without the knowledge of the purchaser. I can remember opening up the case of a friends 486 SX66 computer only to find a SX50 with the multiplier whacked up.
There is another way suggested here but isn't very good unless you already know what the original AMD plastic cartridge back cover looks like.
This is an example of what happens when all you care about is saving a buck. Such problems can be easily avoided by buying from trustworthy vendors who source all their products through legitimate channels. This is especially important to those who wish to overclock. As an AMD reseller, I buy all my cpu's from authorized distributors. In the unlikely event a customer bought an adulterated cpu there would be avenues of recovery for the customer.
The local level is where it is hardest to pass off counterfeit CPUs. The mom and pop joints are staffed by people who actually take the time to inspect every shipment they get in rather than scan it a la UPS. It is the bigger companies with large inventories and less ability for oversight who will see the most amount of countefeiting. You will be picking up your non-legit hardware over at Best Buy or CompUSA in the future (if you haven't already). You are correct when you say this is about the world economy, and that's the level at which the true pirating will (and does) occur.
What we get here is failure of anaphoric agreement-- the plural genitive pronoun "their" does not agree in number with its antecedent, "the reader".
The cpu's in question are genuine AMD's altered to run at a higher clock speed than AMD sold them as.
True, they are a rip-off but "fake" connotes counterfeit. While you could argue they are counterfeit _700Mhz_ chips they aren't fake Athlons.
Look at it this way... If I add 2 zero's to a dollar bill, it's still a real dollar
I don't think I need to add anything else, but at least you didn't say first post
But my interpretation of the original post is that the relevant information should be publicly available to those interested. Just as the average user doesn't know or care about motherboard jumpers, the semantics of the arguments of a Win32 command message, or the contents of /proc, it is nonetheless extremely useful and a Good Thing that this information is available to anyone who does care, for whatever reason.
Obviously, the counterfeiters already know how to do it. I fail to see what harm there might be in providing the same knowledge to those who would use it to look for counterfeiting.
Craig
What I meant with obscurantism was the attitude of "Now that TechWatch unveiled this fraud everybody knows how to make. It should have been kept secret.", as it has been commented earlier.
WTF? News for Nerds? Fake AMD's?
:^)
Shouldn't it be on Tom's?
I read this, like, ten minutes ago on some other site. You suck.
Oh yeah; if there was any software mentioned, that should be somewhere else other than here, too.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
But I'm not from Australia. Why do I care?
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
IIRC plastic is clear when it's made. It's little clear beads. (maybe the size of a couple grains of rice) The beads are then shipped to whoever is doing something with the plastic, where they are melted down and dyes mixed in if desired. Then the melted plastic is formed into useful stuff, like cartridges.
So clear is probably cheaper until you consider not impurities but the shape. Look closely at an Imac. How many seams do you see where the plastic molds came together? How about the circles left by the injection process? With opaque plastic, this stuff is generally concealed on the inside of the object, where you don't see it. Very hard to do with transparent/translucent plastic.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
ATTENTION SLASHDOT COMMUNITY:
We have cock-bite.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with smoking a bong while on the phone with anyone. I think the original poster was implying that CowboyNeal posesses a drug problem unlike any other. Just look at the photo of him on his website. Does that not look like the face of a man at the absolute peak of a 30 microdot acid trip?
Come on, CowboyNeal, we know. It's ok!
peace to the chipmunks, and most importantly, the w0rMs
Production has stopped on Athlon classics, and the new Athlons should be hitting the streets next month. All but the first few of those will be in socket packages, rather than these Slot A packages. So, as of next month, the big plastic case will be gone. (Their moving to sockets because the cache is moving on-die, so the Slot A package isn't needed any more.)
John
I sincerely doubt the poster believes what he was saying.. there's quite a few people (trolls?) on slashdot who seem to enjoy finding well-known people on slashdot and ripping on them - browse at -5 on any of Bruce Peren's, technos, or slashdot-terminal's posts for a few examples. It's not about whether I'm right or wrong, it's about a few juvenile pranksters trying to ruin slashdot by overwhelming the signal with noise. Unfortunately, it is in large part succeeding - people just get tired of putting up with juvenile behavior after awhile and move on. This is the main reason I haven't been responding to acinide stuff like this - there's just so much of it. :(
Yes, and I'm not saying AMD or Intel should go door to door telling customers every detail of their CPU, nor should they be forced to! What I would like to see, however, is an information repository for detecting such trickery in a format that an average computer user could make use of. The USPO (post office) has an online repository for so-called "pyramid" scams and other stuff, they even have an e-mail address and a hotline. Why should the computer industry be less diligent? Worse, why are these companies treating their customers as the enemy????
That makes... mmm... let me see... about 10E17 hypothetical universe lifetimes to the first Mills & Boone novel. Shakespeare? Not a chance. (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I thought it would be a fun time to mention that the Motorola PowerPC 7500 (aka G4) chip uses 5 watts under typical use and 8 watts max.
/ME thought that it would be a fun time to mention that a nice fast ARM would suck a fraction of a watt...
And
Actually, PowerPC is quite nice compared to these cumbersome Intelish 4004-derived mutants.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I do not listen big business that much because I am conscious of their agendas. It was local hw hacker hearsay. Not much better, but at least people were able to say "I do a lot, yet I would not" or "for me, it required conspiciously big power to be stable", in first person.
However I would rather buy them than Intel, if just for all the
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
I certainly do not want to.
Uptime of current version of the server I'm planning is now 479 days - and last downtime was due to some Apache beta hassling with oldish fs. I'd just like you to convince me out of sheepish Intelliness, so that I could become ever more True a Sup3rK3wl Linux h4x0r (I'm afraid I'm even more serious than I try to appear, jolly gosh
As for the stupid +2, I only found out about that funny checkbox below later. Well, it's nice to notice... And I managed to get some informative responses as well, thanks for those.
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
If I inadvertently buy a stolen television set from a retailer, and the police seize it as stolen property, is it the retailer's fault? Shouldn't the retailer have an obligation to replace the television set or refund my money? A retailer should be required to take reasonable care in purchasing goods, to ensure that they are not stolen, counterfeit or remarked. If they buy chips off the back of a truck, they have nobody to blame but themselves.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
"Are the margins between a 650 and a 700 so huge that it's worth spending the time to do the soldering and remarking the processor?"
Probably. Not to long ago, I bought a K6-2 400 that was probably remarked. The metal top had apparently been ground down (unevenly) and re-stamped, plus the lettering on the ceramic borders of the chip had a little smooth oval around them, probably indicating that the original lettering had been ground off and redone.
All grades of the K6-2 are considered low end now, so I imagine the price spread between it and whatever grade it started out as was pretty darn small.
Okay..hope this helps for all those who need to contact AMD corporate Investigations. Mind you this line may still be a direct line so have any pertinent information prepared to give to them.
Last known contact was:
Kathy Armesto
Phone:(408) 749-5029
FAX: (408) 749-4418
email: kathleen.armesto@amd.com
Like i said..i think she's been replaced so expect someone else. Good luck.. I hate it when people think they can fool everyone.
you never lose in ure razorblade shoes......Beck-Hotwax
the card is on my desk at work. My former Contact there was Kathy Armesto. i remember that. But i beleive she's been replaced. I'll post the info here on /. when i get back to work tomorrow.....
They were VERY helpful. But make sure you have some legitimate questions and concerns before talking to them. Helps to keep the crap down to a min. I'll post the email addy and phone# tomorrow. Good Luck.
you never lose in ure razorblade shoes......Beck-Hotwax
Just a comment to everyone who's praising the CPUID #'s on the PIII's... why would you honestly need a serialized Identification number (i.e. a number which is existant only for you) to determine the original clock of the unit? Use a stored register on the chip which contains the original fsb/multiplier settings, then make the bios a bit more sane (i.e. instead of "AMD Athlon 700 mhz" have it report "AMD Athlon 700 mhz clocked to 700mhz")
Ok, so instead of deciding ahead of time, they just use PROM in that id field and then burn in the value once they've tested it. Good enough?
I like to play children's songs in minor keys.
"We're all sons of bitches now." --J. Robert Oppenheimer
You couldn't change it if you wanted to.
:-)
He meant in his sig, not in the post
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Stealing a tool for injection moulding a case is 'free' most places :-)
Once you've stolen your machine, you just need some moulds. You already have examples of exactly how you want the case to be, the moulds can't be too far behind.
PenguiNet: the (shareware) Windows SSH client
Because Athlons are easier to remark. Just solder a resistor, and it's running faster. A Pentium III is very hard to change its multiplier.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Disclaimer: I used to work for Intel's server division, so I may be biased...
Athlon processors draw massive amounts of power. I'm not positive how much heat they put out, but their 800MHz processor draws approx. 2.5 times as much power as a Pentium III 800MHz. That may be where the concern comes from. I know from my experience with Intel servers that they last years. I had one customer call in asking what server he should buy to replace his old one, which had been running non-stop (no reboots) for four years. He finally thought it was time to replace it.
Obviously, AMD hasn't been making 'server' level processors that long, so we can't be sure how dependable their products are, but I would assume that they would last that long just fine...
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
The 'Katmai' 600MHz chip uses 37 watts. The 'Coppermine' 800MHz chip uses only 26 watts. (Okay, so it's more like 2 to 1 than 2.5 to 1...) You can find this information at support.intel.com. Also, the link mentioned in another response shows the wattages of many x86 compatible processors.
Or didn't you wonder why you need an 'Athlon-certified' power supply?
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
As has been mentioned elsewhere, this is not fake CPUs but rather remarked CPUs. A fake CPU would mean that some other company has started up a fabrication facility (costing on the order of US $1,000,000,000) to manufacture fake Athlon processors. The only way someone could make money selling 'fake' Athlons would be if they could produce the processors cheaper than AMD. Very doubtful, since they would have to product MORE than AMD. Not to mention the fact that there are only 4 companies in the world with fabrication facilities that could produce Athlons. (Intel, Motorola, IBM, and, of course, AMD.)
What is actually being done is called remarking. It means that someone has taken a slow speed processor (in this case, a 650MHz processor) and soldered a resistor onto it so it will think it is a 700MHz processor. Then they changed the markings on the chip (hence the term 'remarking') to make it look like it is supposed to be a 700MHz chip. This was a large problem with Intel chips back when the Pentiums were being made, which is why Intel instituted the dreaded 'multiplier lock'. This makes it EXTREMELY difficult to remark Pentium II and Pentium III chips. Unfortunately, AMD decided to make it fairly simple to remark their chips. This helps people who want to 'overclock' their chips on purpose, but it also helps people who want to cheat their customers out of money...
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Well... Almost. The 1GHz Athlon draws 65 watts. That's bad enough.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
If the buyer wants to void the warrantee and overclock his purchase that is fine. What is wrong is that he was sold an item that was not what was advertised.
While the margins between 650s and 700s aren't that much, the margins between 500s and 700s is quite large. As the author stated in his article, AMD started using the 650 core in 500s near the end of their life cycle because it was easier/cheaper for them to do so than to produce 500mHz cores.
I second the vote for adding a CPUID field for what MHz the chip was designed to run at. Overclockers wouldn't care but it would prevent this from becoming yet another reason to get a good 'ol Intel chip instead.
Unfortunately I don't think this can be made to work. Generally manufacturers use exactly the same silicon for a range of processor speed and only decide what to mark a given processor during testing. In other words 650MHz Athlons and 700MHz Athlons are probably the same chips; the 650MHz ones just couldn't pass testing at 700MHz.
Of course this means that the speed of a processor is controlled by something not on the actual chip. No matter what it is that sets the speed, it's theoretically possible for the remarkers to change. On a slotted processor it's reasonably easy to open the package and change the speed. I would guess that socketed Athlons (and P3s for that matter) will be harder to remark.
For the record, I've never had any stability problems with my Athlon system (In fact, it seems like the most stable system I've ever had!), but I've only had it for a few months... Note that I do not play games on this system, but I have stressed the processor (and to a lesser degree the memory subsystem) quite thoroughly and for (fairly) long periods of time. The only advice I can offer is to pay close attention to the motherboard's strengths, power supply, and RAM when purchasing. Not all motherboards with the same chipset are created equal. Also, chipset specs don't tell the whole story.
Do you work for Dell or something? This reads like an ad.
Motherboards are an entirely different issue. I have an ASUS K7M. I don't think I'd recommend this, or any other AMD640 based board for a server. VIA and AMD are unfortunately not well known for making high quality chipsets. The issues that plagued Super Socket 7 seem to have carried over to early generation Athlon boards. Most of these problems are AGP related, so not much concern to a server, but one must ask if they screwed up AGP, what else did they screw up? Also, Intel traditionally makes at least one chipset which "optimizes" for server performance and provides better IO performance. For example the 430HX for Pentium class processors. No such "server" chipset exists for the Athlon to my knowledge, although its possible some motherboard companies are looking at building specialty motherboards with higher quality parts (voltage regulators etc.) to suit the server environment. I certainly hope so.
I haven't heard much about the latest generation of KX133 based Athlon boards, but with any luck these have eliminated the bugs of the AMD640 chipset. I would recommend checking out the usual suspects of tomshardware.com, anandtech.com, sharkyextreme.com and dejanews to look for reports of instability with KX133 boards.
If a tree falls in the forest, and kills a mime, does anyone care?
It's funny to note that this expected speed program works by examining the serial number burnt into the CPU.
HEck, people thought the serial number was going to be used for nefarious deals, and invasion of privacy, blah blah blah blah blah.
The serial number was designed for situations like this, to make sure you get what you pay for, and to allow Intel to take its giant thumb and push hard on distributors who are messing with the clock rating of the chips. (I'm pretty sure they know which chips go where.)
AMD have already stopped new Athlon wafer starts, so there's a limited quantity of Athlons in the pipeline, then there'll be a very limited quantity of slot-A thunderbirds (probably to be announced end of May). After that (sometime in June?), all of AMD's chips will be socket-A which are obviously tamper-proof.
Well, I don't like the idea of inferiour products being offered as name brand. I must say however x86 is
a dino-technology and there are Alphas and other true 64bit technologies available. As far as i'm concerned, personal purchases will be true "Unix boxes". I do believe that the 686 is a Un*x worthy
processor, but if your thing is just Unix/Linux, get an Alpha! (There are other good systems, but Alpha is your best Unix bet)
BillSF
Fat Lenny pointed out that "the difference looks to be [only] US $30 retail. What a waste of effort for a few bucks!"
Well, I don't know what the percentage difference is in Australia, but until the con artists are apprehended, we won't know exactly when these were made. When 700s first came out, the price difference was considerably higher than it is now. These could even have been marked 700 in anticipation of the chip at that speed's real release.
So the worth of the fakery here might have been much higher when it was done, and in Australian dollars, than it is now in US dollars.
I wanted to grab the actual numbers from cpureview.com, but it appears to be down right now. Maybe you'll have better luck by the time you read this.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
How well can we get the guys who did this? Assuming that the company the user actually bought the CPU from is the culprit, then is it likely, you think, that it'll be as open/shut of a case as it seems? (well, I'm just basing that on the evidence apparent: the pics, etc.) If it's not actually the company that's doing it, but someone else along the corporate line between the user and the origin, then I wonder how easily the perpetrator will be found. I think this stinks, and I'd just like to know that something can be done..
Insert mind here.
Last sunday I bought myself in Oz a new computer with a athlon K7 700, case markings as follows:
.18 micron core.
/proc/cpuinfo gives (among other things)
.25 micron core? However the markings indicates a .18 micron core!
AMD K7700MTR51B A
2300 16527543
Not the A indicating a
This system has given me lots of trouble, Initially I could not get it through a red hat install without freezing (B**dy computers). After dumming down a bunch of settings (Its a k7V) mostly at random! (By this I mean turning of the cache and increasing RAM timmings) I managed to make it run long enough to install red hat.
cat
model: 1
flags: fpu, ume, pse, tsc, msr, 6, mce, cx8, sep, mtrr, pge, 14, cmov, fmov, fcmov, 22mmx, 30, 3dnow
Looking at http://www.sandpile.org/arch/cpuid.htm I am willing to bet that model = 1 means a
Could this be a "fake" athlon? Comments anyone...
"It strikes me ironic that he's complaining about getting a pre-overclocked processor"
Personally, I'd be furious. There most definitely is a difference in price (otherwise why were the changes made in the first place?), and it's not just money he's concerned with.
If you're overclocking a processor, there's only so high you can go. With a 650 he's not going to clock it as high as a 700. It's probably already running hotter than it should. This guy wants reliability from this processor, NOT to be told someone's clocked it for him already.
insignificant sig
Uh, Your welcome.
Isn't there a Warranty on the box? If there is, then your 'Mom and Pop' store doesn't need to accept returns.
If they are selling secondhand chips, it's in their interest to check to make sure the chip runs before selling it. They don't have to accept returns on those either.
So, why else would you want to return a chip? The only reason I can think of is that you didn't bother to check to see if it's compatible with your motherboard.
/sarcasm
Using my elite hacking skills, I'm running my 300a @ 450.
/sarcasm off
Erik Z
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
The heatsink on my k7/500 is cool to the touch on my system. The fan being blown out of the power supply is barely above room temperature.
:).
Heat is not a problem.
My system also has 2 hard drives (one spinning at 7200 rpm, one at 5600 rpm), a zip drive, and a dvdrom in it. Several of those devices are power hogs. On top of that I'm using a tnt2/ultra as my video card, also quite a juice eater.
I use a 250watt power supply, and power is not a problem -- my motherboard is an fic sd11, notorious for being ultra picky about power supplies.
The trick to putting together a stable athlon system is to use quality parts. If you are putting together a server, this shouldn't be a problem. Athlon rigs hickup if you use a power supply that doesn't hold the voltage at the right level all the time. They also hickup if the ram used in it doesn't send signals when it's supposed to.
They arn't as forgiving as a bx board, but it is NOT that there are stability problems. The problem is the power supply is not running at spec (when there are power problems), or the problem is that the ram is not running at spec (when there are ram problems).
My system is far more stable than my old one, which I should mention has been up without a reboot for the last 97 days (and 9 hours and 4 minutes, but who's counting?
Well, this didn't come from a mom and pop store. At least not initially. The fact that it has a replica (and a good one apparently) replacement case and sticker means that this is definitely a fairly sophisticated operation. Its not hard to track down the source once several counterfeit CPUs are found. I guess the difficulty would be in actually doing anything about it, since the development plant could be in some 3rd world country were laws are different. Even so, it could lead to helping shut down the export of the CPUs from wherever they are being counterfeited.
Spyky
Except worse. I remember reading once that some small computer shops were shipping "P2-266's" when in reality the chips were Cel-266's (NO cache)... Remember, it is not always the chip manufacturer's fault. It can be the shops fault also
I think one way of combatting this problem is to have easy software interfaces to the intended speed of the processor, and the current speed of the processor.
People can still overclock and sell, but they may be less likely to think they can get away with it.
I have been told not to base a server on Athlon because of power consumption/heat/stability problems. How is it, can it claim 100% uptime for a few years (an intel-level server lifespan)?
:)
I've had no problems with my Athlon 500, it's been flawless. There's none yet that can claim 100% uptime for a few years, seeing as how Athlons have only been around 8 months or so. But check back in a couple years, I'll let you know.
You could use an Athlon on a low-end (1 CPU) server, easily. Look for the Mustang (an enhanced Athlon) towards the 2nd half of 2000. From amd.com:
"Mustang is planned to be an enhanced version of Thunderbird, featuring a reduced core size, lower power requirements and large, full-speed, on-die L2 cache. Multiple versions of the Mustang core are planned to be targeted at the high-performance server/workstation, value and high-performance desktop, and mobile markets. "
I know Tyan will be making SMP motherboards for Athlon by Q4, possibly others will, as well.
It'd look even cooler in this case-
-------------------------------------------
Please give your mod points to others, Im at the cap. They will appreciate it more
I love my K7-700mhz. I'm running the ASUS K7M motherboard. After updating bios and drivers, it's a rock solid performer. I run Win2000 for development work, and Win98 for games. It's got a TNT2 Ultra video card, and other than problems with the nvidia drivers, it's performed perfectly.
really, Sig, that's an incredibly dumb idea.
/DEVOFF/
It is totally logical. Why keep people in the dark about overclocking what they have already legitimately paid for? Why keep them in the dark so that they can be oblivious to being victim of criminals that are making A LOT more money out of the knowledge.
The public does not need to be educated about what overclocking is.
How the hell did this get moderated up?
The majority of the public does not need to know that overclocking takes place
Huh!?!?!
or how to do it.
How many end users are going to risk soldering their nice expensive new Athlon for an extra ~8% performance? Most have never picked up a soldering iron and most of those that have, probably have'nt worked on or be willing to work on SMD's!!
Now think about how much more a 700 goes for over a 650! The people that will do this shit, are those that know how, have done it many times, and have much more to gain. There's a WHOLE LOT MORE THAN 8% to be made in $$$ "converting" a 650 to 700!
They just need to know that there are fake Athlon chips out there, and honestly, the 'public' doesn't need to know that either,
Make up your mind. I mean really, who the hell is moderating stupid comments like this up to 2?!?!?!?!
it's the resellers who need to know.
HUH! I know resellers that stoop to this kinda shit! Why the HELL should the public not be armed with the knowledge to protect itself?!?!
I doubt the shop that sold this chip to this guy realized they were selling a fake chip.
I doubt they cared!
The retailers need to run their chips through a test of some sort, some test that doesn't require that they actually boot up a computer with the chip, but maybe a simple electrical or physical test.
/DoctorEvilVoiceON/ Right...
Education may be the only defense against exploitation, but you have to be careful who you educate.
The type of people who are into SOLDERING THEIR PC'S already know how to overclock an Athlon.
Educating the public in this case would be futile because half of them wouldn't understand what you were talking about
Yep, no harm done.
and the other half wouldn't care
I'd like to say no harm done, but I can't because 1. I don't agree and 2. the harm HAS been done already to the consumers.
(not to mention the incredible resources necessary for 'educating the public').
Yeah, 5k of HTML on each vendors server might just topple their margins.
It's better to educate the knowledgable public (ie. the ones selling the stuff) so they can provide good service and abide by the law (which is plenty sufficient, BTW).
You're a funny guy.
If everyone knew everything, that'd be great, but there's no chance that that will ever happen, so make sure you get the right people to know the right things.
You work for Microsoft don't you?
sig11 is absolutely correct.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
Hrunting
/.
/. now days? We now can't cruise /. at 2 let alone 1. Sad state of affairs.
Hi Sig11,
I guess morbidly fascinating would be my description of the way I feel about what these idiots are doing to
It's amazing how crap it is becoming since it quickly became the L33t site to be seen at. It seems all these guys want to be seen, but don't have much sufficiently geeky to say, so they ruin it for the people who do have geek interests by ripping the crap out of some really valid, logical and interesting posts.
To make it worse, some people who do have an interesting thing to say, get called Trolls by these fools.
But the scariest thing is, some of the complete crap that gets moderated UP!! Who the hell reads at
Only way I can see to fix it, is a membership system where your IP is logged and you get barred if you are obviously just wasting bandwidth. But that would totally go against privacy, etc.
You can always tell the kiddies by the fact that they insult you right off the bat, rather than constructively criticise.
Cya.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
The only real wat to lock bus / clock speeds is to make microfuses in silicon, and blow the correct fuses in silicon during the test/burnin cycle of manufacturing. until this process becomes perfected (It's only a matter of time) fraud will be a fact of life in the computer industry.
I've been thinking for years that this is how they can defeat the crooks.
How cheap would it be to put an EPROM inside the CPU case, glued right down next to the CPU wafer (or as a part of it). Have this EPROM define the speed of the PLL clock (which is also inside the CPU casing), which feeds the CPU directly and also outputs that clock, buffered onto one of the pins for the motherboard, etc.
The PLL/EPROM setup, should be made so that any further burning (even any single bit) could only slow down the PLL.
As a further measure, a small fuse inside the CPU could supply the program pin, once it is all programmed, blow that fuse and that EPROM is write protected.
Anyone who defeats this, deserves the profits they get!
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
I'd have to disagree w/you. Education is the key to solving just about any problem out there. Hell, if the general public were more educationed about computers, maybe we wouldn't be beating our head against the wall trying to help them. Your statement seems like an elitist attitude. After all, knowledge is power. Just b/c everyone won't know everything doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get people as educated as possible. Just look at how many other problems exist out there just b/c some people are ignorant.
This is just knitpicking...but i believe the XTLA you are looking for is USPS (United States Postal Service).
I guess there is no more need to post...you have stated everything much better then i ever could!
You forgot "good motherboard". HTH, HAND.
Yeah, he went to a computer show and bought what he tought was a quad PII SGI machine- but, nope! Rude awakening on several counts, and we had to bust up that guy who sold it to him. Best look out, muthafuckaz!
I can't believe so much space was wasted by you saying nothing!
Seriously, what the hell was the point of that? You're just like one of those people standing around the street looking down on the body of an innocent boy killed in the crossfire of a gang fight shaking his head saying "Something should be done. Tsk Tsk Tsk."
Do you have a concrete proposal?
Is any company actually trying to stop information about their processors? No. Intel and AMD may not want their chips overclocked, but no company is suing Tom's, Ace's, or Anandtech for illegal perverse engineering or anything, so leave it alone!
These companies are simply making overclocking not easy. They're not making it hard, but they're not making it as simple as it used to be. Big deal.
Black is the color which has the most efficient thermal dissipation due to radiated heat.
;-)
:-/
Exactly. Black-body radiator. Physics. Someone finally remembered.
The problem is that adding a layer of coloring is that you generally increase thermal resistance due to the extra layer.
Not to mention what adding a layer of friggin' plastic (the case itself) does... Ok, so there is an aluminium 'thermal transfer plate' above the core, but I'd much rather have one without the case...
The purpose of pretty proccessors is marketing. Yet another reason to dislike marketing...
-
__
Comment submitted. There will be a delay before you understand what you posted.
A tool for injection moulding a case (4 at a time) should be available for less than $50K in the US, I'd bet that $15K would get the same thing in Asia.
Stickers should be available for not more than $.25 each in the US. Draw your own conclusions.
Who says crime doesn't pay (especially if you can get it cheap!)
Can Intel or any other maker of mobo chipsets implement a 'feature' that does not permit overclocking. This would be done inside the chipset of the motherboard, not on the processor or in the bios like current methods.
B1ood
Note to self: pasty-skinned programmers ought not stand in the Mojave desert for multiple hours. -- John Carmack
From what the article says, and some of the other links in the threads support this, it appears that these may have even been sold as 500 mhz chips originally, as AMD was having a hard time keeping up with production or something. They removed/bridged some resistors in the process also. Although I don't know in what way that might affect detection.
The other issue was that on the linked page inthe article it states that the chips said 18 microns on the outside (better for overclocking) and the cores on the inside said 25 micron (will blow sooner). Who knows.
Here's a thought; wasn't his warrantee for a 700 Mhz processor? Meaning that since he doesn't have a 700 he would have some sort of a right to a refund anyway, since that was what he was led to believe he was purchasing? Who exactly would be responsible for this? I would imagine someone with some egg on their face PR-wise for not verifying that the chips were the real(700) thing before selling them, and then refusing a refund. Or would there be a tremendous buck passing going on?
Any lawyers, or anyone with knowledge of how this sort of thing is handled want to hazard a guess? Just curious.
I agree that there's no way to make money by trying to counterfeit Athlons, but there are many more fabs capable of manufacturing the parts. Microprocessors aren't the process drivers these days, nor the biggest chips in production.
With the advent of smaller and faster processors, and more manufactures able to make x86 and other standard CPU's, there will be a plague of non-legit hardware in the coming years. The world economoy is going to make it harder also to pinpoint who is responisble and where. Why? Because with as much as electronics are passed from here to there, it is very easy to interrupt the supply chain, especially on the local levels.
I am not knocking mom and pop corner computer joints, but its easier to pass off hot CPU's. or just jacked up ones, then it would be to say UPS.
The problem with disclosing the retailer is that it might not be their fault. Many companies sell OEM chips and these chips are purchased wherever they can be found. An unscrupulous distributer or computer manufacturer might have sold remarked goods to an honest business. Since there is no way of knowing who is at fault, it would be unfair to brand the retailer as a thief by listing their name. (even if the word isn't there, the association alone would hurt their business)
Black is the color which has the most efficient thermal dissipation due to radiated heat. Convection cooling dwarfs thermal radiation but, as they say, every little bit helps.
The problem is that adding a layer of coloring is that you generally increase thermal resistance due to the extra layer. That is the benefit of anodizing...the layer is super-thin but gets the thermal benefit of black. Using regular paint would be counter-productive.
Note that they didn't say the retailer would not be disclosed, but *not yet*. IIRC, the last scam I heard about, it was either the wholesaler who did the trick, or someone who sold some 'surplus' chips to the wholesaler.
Also, don't forget that AMD is most likely intensely interested in this. I worked for a semi company some years back and discovered some counterfeiting of parts. Our legal department had some fun....
I agree to this, the general public are not knowledgeable about this. And it would probably create more of a panic than helping to weed this out.
.sig
If you leave 2 buckets of water in the sun with one bucket being black and the other white, the black bucket will heat up quicker. but if you heat up 2 buckets of water to an equal temperature and store them both in the dark, the black one will cool down quicker, you can do an experiment to prove this if you like, but thats the way it works.
You are not me, therefore you are not important
Plus, faking $1 bills will only loose you money, or the profit margin will be very very slim indeed. If you're going to fake US currency, the $20 is the best bet, since it's the largest bill in circulation that isn't regularly checked for counterfiting and it's also one of the most commonly used bills out there...
:)
Just a little FYI.
So I can't have a look at this. But in Singapore many of the smaller computer shops have a counter at the front where the owner will build your PC in front of you so that you can check that you are getting what you paid for.
Seems like a good idea, and it is also rather fun as you can stand there and say "I'll have one of those, and one of those, and one of those...." all at prices substantially lower than Oz.
Life is just a bowl of All Bran - Small Faces
Black for termal dissipation? At best a black case would make the chip heat up more in sunlight. The color of the case doesn't matter. However I'll bet that black plastic costs a bit less to make than clear plastic. In black plastic you should be able to tolerate more impurities.
You should also add quotation marks around "misspelled" to prevent its being parsed as a past participle.
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Its sort of right: any extra warranty might be voided. However, many places have laws about implied warranties of merchantibility. This warranty is created by advertising an item for sale as having particular properties. In this case, the item was promised as a "700 MHz Athlon", which means, according to the custom of the industry, that it was tested and guaranteed by AMD to conform to their 700 MHz tests.
In the eyes of the law, a 650 MHz Athlon sold as 700 is the same as an empty plastic case sold as 700. Both are equally fradulent. The issue here is fraud and/or false advertising, not a piece of paper with a 1 year warranty. Of course, you might have to sue them in court to receive compensation.
Of course, if there was a sign in the store that said "All merchandise sold as is" or something similar, you won't have any recourse. But seeing that in a store selling supposedly new merchandise is a clear warning you are dealing with shady characters. Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit.
(Of course, I am not a lawyer.)
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
Shit eating moron because of a speling mistake. You must be one of those people that cut me off in traffic just because I drive slow in the left lane.
Just for that, I'm not changing it.
Post your e-male, coward!
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
Okay, to relabel a chip is one thing. To do soldering that bad is another. I mean, I can't believe that AMD would let a chip get out there with soldering that bad (I wouldn't assume that they would, but your post makes it sound like it). Maybe it doesn't actually change the chip's capabilities, but it just seems a little unprofessional to me.
Of course, if you buy your stuff off the back of a truck you're on your own -- but this would still allow one to verify their chip without tearing it apart.
:wq
There is nothing new with this. I remember getting a bunch of 266 PII chips re-canned to be 300s back when 300 Mhz was a fast speed. Usually the folks who used to recan chips were fairly sloppy and you could tell by the fact that the enclosure edges didn't meet well making the cartridge a bit thicker than is should have been. Have a high index of suspicion when the cartridge doesn't slip into the rails easily. Given the overclockability of AMD Athlons, I guess we will see more than a bit of this sort of stuff (unfortunately).
I do not think that the name of the distributor should become public until there is some dialog between them and the buyer. The folks who have re-canned the 750 may be quite a bit deeper in the distribution process, and the vendor may be a very reputable person. It may be that the source obtained chips from a reputable broker who in turn obtained them from someone who re-canned them. Supply channels for things like this are not always so simple and direct. Unless the vendor represented the chips as coming direct from AMD, they make have been as defrauded as the ultimate buyer.
Uhh, if he wants to overclock a 700, he would get better perfomance than if he wanted to overclock a 650...
Eh...
Do agree to some extend. We're merely assembling stuff shipped in. But heck, that's the very first step towards the e-industry. Hopefullly within some time frame we would engineering chips on our own. I can see some local semiconductor fabs popping up.. And I mean those producing ICs not some dioes - and they are 'local'. Cheap labor? Not exactly. But there are many hard-to-resist incentives offered by the government to bring in these plants like from AMD and Intel.
Transparency Casing have been around in Malaysia for quite some time before Apple even announce I-Mac. What is frustrating is that my local manufacturer don't get the credit for the design (because they aren't in US of A).
Where the hell is Malaysia? Look in your chips, likely 60-70% of the time it's "Made In Malaysia".
Gary
Damn, that took a long time to read, but I think we can all agree it was time well spent...
don't forget that these may have been procs that were purchased as 500-550mhz Athlons, according to the article. There is considerably more difference in price between 550 and 700mhz. Also previous posters have pointed out that this is probably being done on a large scale. Even modest gains in nefarious profits (not to mention that the procs would have been sold at a profit even normally) multiplied by a large stock of procs can get into serious bucks fairly quickly. The kind of work that is being described probably takes very little time/manpower when done by proffessional remarkers
Actually many customers have the same type of problems, though not necessarily so severe, when dealing with Value Added Resellers, Consultants, and the like. And yes, you can buy a Dell from a VAR or a Consultant can set you up, same with Macs and any number of machines, and even sometimes get a great service from them. The difference with Dell is that they give you that choice, and are definitely more partial to having you get everything you need from them. Sure they make money, but the idea is that the product has the backing of what is now a major company, with associated warranties, money-back guarantees, etc. You can bet the feathers would fly if one of these large OEM's actually ended up with remarked procs, and the customers would end up with some massive replacements. But if a tiny vendor in East Cougarbottom, USA ends up being the culprit or even the unwitting transmitter, and the problem is localized there, it is a different story. By the way Dell does not sell AMD CPU's anyway. However, this story is a good reason to buy from AMD authorized sources... should add some degree of extra protection against this sort of thing, and probably an easier avenue to AMD should something go awry with the process...
They did: Check out http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/bin/ It is Open Sourced as well. So have fun /.'ers
I won't dispute the fact that remarked processors sold at a markup (and without disclosure) are wrong. I'd be pissed, but I'd probably find it just a bit funny. Are the margins between a 650 and a 700 so huge that it's worth spending the time to do the soldering and remarking the processor?
--
--
fat lenny's gonna lick your brain today.
cat /proc/cpuinfo
Yeilds this output on my Athlon 650 (.25 micron);
processor : 0
vendor_id : AuthenticAMD
cpu family : 6
model : 1
model name : AMD-K7(tm) Processor
stepping : 2
cpu MHz : 650.035710
cache size : 512 KB
fdiv_bug : no
hlt_bug : no
sep_bug : no
f00f_bug : no
coma_bug : no
fpu : yes
fpu_exception : yes
cpuid level : 1
wp : yes
flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr 6 mce cx8 sep mtrr pge 14 cmov fcmov 22 mmx 30 3dnow
bogomips : 629.15
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Several years ago, two of my friends both bought computers from Comtrade and _both_ of them, with different configurations and processors, ended up with overmarked chips.
Someone told me Comtrade is either out of business or going out, I don't know if that's true or not, but I can believe it.
Josh Sisk
No, what I suggest would exactly address what you are talking about.
Inside the core of the CPU there would be a few bytes of data which would say what the processor was. If you cracked the case of the CPU you could not dig the bit of silicon off the die and put in something else. A thought that AMD (I know Intel does) already did this. What is more important is that BIOS manufactures respond to this.
It wouldn't matter if the cartridge was cracked and had new resistors put in because the BIOS would know what the speed was supposed to be.
TechWatch has said as soon as they have a statement from the reseller they will release the name.
Tampered Athlons = Tampons? "Susie got hosed out of AU$300. Tampax was there."
--
--
The gravitational constant of protein has been changed[...] Also, rabbit carcasses no longer weigh as much a
If you want postings that make sense, go to www.hotgrits.org instead.
The fact that the reader only very recently purchased their Athlon is worrying.
Just got home from a long day at work.....were I am a (production specialist) =) on the AMD assymbly line. I hoped online to find this remarkable story....and have some light to shed on it.
Just before Christmas last year......me and my friend....who also works on the line, found an interesting discovery. He is in the testing department, where they place the chip on the test bed and run a process to check the processor. Anyway, he accidently ran a 650 check on a 500. To his suprise....it worked! It gave an error on the board that was one of the resistors. He told me of his findings and we began to investigate further..... We checked the part programs that tell how the board is set up and what parts are placed on the board and found that the only difference was that the 500 had an extra resistor. We thought this was pretty cool and didn't really think about it till now. Also, I noticed that someone was mentioning the remains of peeled up labels and some bad looking soldering. Well, we are known to relabel boards at the factory that were labeled wrong for one reason or another, and we also do our own repair to boards that have been run with wrong/without parts. Hope this info is useful to everyone out there.
"Sleep is a poor substitute for caffeine" - Lotus
I too have an ASUS K7V mobo, I ran pcprobe on my K7700 and on the rebadged processor in question and they both reported the same results Version: Athlon External Clock: 100Mhz Max Speed: 800Mhz Current Speed: 700Mhz So I afraid that blows that theory Skull
CPU Identifier identifies the CPU you are running (on x86 systems only). This can be useful in three ways: 1) identifying remarked CPUs, 2) getting detailed information about your processor, and 3) when combined with the info given by /proc/cpuinfo.
The Athlon 800 uses 43 Watts under typical use and 48 Watts maximum. I'd love to know where you're getting the information that PIII-800s use only 17.2 Watts? I can't find a datasheet on the 800, but the 600 seems to use 37 Watts under typical use, according to Intel datasheets.
----------------------------
Actually it's more like 1.65x the wattage. not 2x.
----------------------------
Actinide is a series on the periodic table (elements 89-103). The word I believe Sig11 is looking for is asinine, meaning stupid or silly.
I am sorry, this is both offtopic and blaming AMD products, but this might affect my purchases.
I have been told not to base a server on Athlon because of power consumption/heat/stability problems. How is it, can it claim 100% uptime for a few years (an intel-level server lifespan)?
I had hoped to base the server on Athlon hardware but have been convinced otherwise
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
Bogomips = Bogus MIPs
Because people don't look for fake $1 bills as often as they do fake $20s
If you get a remarked CPU, you can discover that with the appropriate software tools. That should be sufficient, although opening it up to further show the fraud might be more convincing. If that "Mom and Pop" place still refuses a return on the clear case of fraud, then they should be run totally out of business.
... e.g. get their own money back on the junk).
I don't have a problem with retailers that refuse to take back DEAD stuff because I understand how this stuff can become DEAD. OTOH, I've gotten DEAD stuff from 2 local dealers and they both took it back (motherboard in one case and RAM in another). I'm not even certain that I didn't zap them myself. I was glad they did swap out for me, but they could have just as easily told me I must have static zapped it.
OTOH, if I get a clear case of fraud, I will EXPECT them to take it back (and to even follow up with their distribution source
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
The rationale for catridges was not security. Slot I catridges were introduced for the Pentium II, which had their L2 caches off die, because of the inability to keep the cache on die while keeping the costs low. Wrapping a catridge around the circuit board was simply for aesthetics and durability, so less people will break it by accident (similar to why console games have plastic casings wrapping their games). It was never designed to be a tamper-proof mechanism.
Go get your free Palm V (25 referrals needed only!)
Reminds me of a recent situation with Apple.. some of their G4 500MHz chips only had 450MHz stamped on them. Apple's tech note on it said that the chips did not need to be replaced. I've heard a number of computer dealers have been telling people who complain that messing with their motherboard/heatsink voids their warrenty, so stop looking. Hehehe
:P
The other thing is that living in Perth, I can attest to how downright dishonest some of our computer dealers are. I wouldn't put it past some of them.
Would have been interesting to see the chip before it got crushed
What you suggest would benefit people who bought systems that were overclocked with untouched processors, but the problem here is that the processor cartidge has been cracked so that the mobo thinks its getting a faster processor.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
But as Lucien points out, checking this out will void your warranty.
In otherwords, by opening this package (in order to determine its terms), you assent to being bound by whatever's contained therein. Hooray for shrinkwrap liscenses on hardware. At least there's no prohibition of reverse engineering....
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
This has happened to Compaq products recently here in the UK - although this hasn't been Compaq's fault. What's worrying is that dodgy kit was supplied by reputable authorised Compaq dealers. The kit appears to function at first, but then servers starting having crashes with unusual stop errors.
It appears these Athlons work when installed, although there must be hundreds of Athlon users taking a second look at their processors right now.
insignificant sig
To save everyone the time :
Article Moved:
Do to the HUGE response to this article, we have had to move it to a different server. We are currently making arrangements and will notify ASAP.
Update: It is now available/mirrored @ http://ocworkbench.com/hardware/athlon/athlon.htm
Kind Regards,
Lucien Wells.
//Phizzy
"Most European technology just isn't worth our stealing," -- Former CIA chief James Woolsey, referring to Echelon
Well, on one hand that's true. But on the more practical side of things, I want to avoid retailers who are lacking either the scruples or the savy to get me the chip correctly marked. To a certain point, I don't care who did it, I just want to get what I pay for.
Trees can't go dancing
So do them a big favor
Pretend dancing stinks!
B.S.
While the vast majority of computer dealers are on the up and up, there are some very shady dealers out there. There are people that will buy hardware from anyone, without asking where the parts came from.
I used to work for a major microprocessor manufacturer in customer/technical support working very closely with the customers/victims of these shady charecters. I've met slimy hardware dealers that wouldn't care if a processor was legitimate or not. They get your money with a warranty thatlasts as long as you are in the store. They explicitly sell kit "as is" with no warranty from them. If the part fails, go talk to the manufacturer. What, they won't help you because the processor is counterfit? That's a shame. Too bad that you bought it "as is" If you wanted a warranty, I could have sold you this boxed processor for 40% more. I can assure you that I had no idea that the part was remarked. I can provide you with all the informaiton that I have on where I purchased the chip from, if you want to press legal matters further. I assure you that I had no intent to defraud you or any other customer.
To say that the vendor is ignorant in this matter is nieve at best, intentionally decitful in the worst.
Do you own a small computer shop? If you do, I'm certain that you know how to purchase legetimite parts from authorized channels. I'm also equally certain that you know of at least one "grey market" vendor that can get you parts for a discount.
I'll give you that clock / bus locking with substrate resistors is a stopgap measure at best. The only real wat to lock bus / clock speeds is to make microfuses in silicon, and blow the correct fuses in silicon during the test/burnin cycle of manufacturing. until this process becomes perfected (It's only a matter of time) fraud will be a fact of life in the computer industry.
-Goldmeer
(Boy, do I have some nasty stories of remaking that i wish I could tell...)
Clueless moderator: I fail to see how the above post is insightful.
:)
In answer to the question, however, remarking an Athlon is far easier than modifying the equivilent coppermine. The Athlon multiplier settings (and how to change them) are actually well documented (see Tom's Hardware), and AMD even designed an overclocking system into the packaging (Gold Fingers).
The intel p3, on the other hand, has no available documentation for changing the clock multiplier. In your dollar bill analogy, the effort required to make the correct changed would be stated as, "Why make counterfeit one dollar bills, if you could make four dollar bills?"
Answer: It's not nearly as cost effective, and MUCH easier to spot.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Anyone else notice that the picture here looks like the sticker has been peeled off and replaced? I also cringe at the poor quality of resoldering the resistors in this one. EEEk!
It's too bad that you can't find out for sure whether the processor is fake without voiding your warranty. Maybe AMD can help us out here and let us ask them about the serial numbers. I guess we should all expect tampering more often.
Thanks to TechWatch the people who did this now know that they need to use a better plastic, a sharper defined mold and better quality stickers. They'll spend a few bucks 'fixing' these issues and be back to ripping people off.
I second the vote for adding a CPUID field for what MHz the chip was designed to run at. Overclockers wouldn't care but it would prevent this from becoming yet another reason to get a good 'ol Intel chip instead.
There doesn't seem to be much in the world that people won't try to get away with. Too bad the people who did this are probably in some unidentifiable third world country.
Think, these people had to spend a minimum of $100000 for a limited production run on the replacement casings and stickers. They had some financial backing, probably. Can you imagine their business plan: "We need money so we can pay for staff, tools and supplies so we can rip off optimistic people looking for bargain processors"...
What a pain in the ass. Yet another sign that the world is coming to an end.
Actually, black for heat dissapation is not a new idea, when rebuilding my VW bus engine, the rebuild manual said I should leave the black paint on for that reason (They're air cooled and need all the help they can get staying cool.)
Supposedly they make special coatings for this purpose, not your average Kryon-bomb can of black. If the chip manufacturers are using some kind of thermal dissapation material for their casings, it would probably make the chips less reliable than before to simply slap a cheap plastic jobber on there.
(Of course the previous owner had already removed it, so I buffed it out real nice with a buffing tool. I also felt pretty stupid a few months later when it dropped a valve seat. Sigh. )
Anybody who runs intel can go download a program from their site which gives clock speed, and with the PIIIs the expected speed as well. Don't even have to run windows, there's a version that boots off a disk.
If not now, when?
(1)If you have an ASUS board, you can run the PC Probe utility that came with the board. It will give you info like: (under the info tab, DMI Explorer...)
Version: Athlon
External Clock: 100Mhz
Max Speed: 800Mhz
Current Speed: 700Mhz
(2) If you have a program like Intel LAN Desk, you can use the DMI Explorer to get the same information.
(3) Machines such as Compaq's and HP's come with diagnostic utilities that also explore this information...
This should match what you see on the case of the processor. If they don't match, or your clock frequency is running over 100Mhz, be suspicious!!
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
Um, no. I don't think that's what he was suggesting at all. What I think he was suggesting--and what seems to make sense to me--is that sometimes education is pointless. This case would be a prime example. For reasons mentioned above, I don't think education about overclocking would lead to any less exploitation. So while education may be a good defense against exploitation sometimes, it doesn't always work and isn't always going to accomplish something.
Why not a Pentium III, since you could get more monedy from it. In otherwords, why make counterfit $1 bills, if you could make $20's? tcd004
well, insincere as this is, if the pirates perceived enough market demand for amd chips (as inexpensive as they are, compared to intel) then I guess AMD chips are being considered more and more for end-user systems.
so even though the fake cpus are a hassle to put up with, the good news is that AMD is becoming a more and more serious threat to intel and a real alternate choice for x86 style cpus.
(ob consp theory: maybe intel is doing the fakes, trying to taint the good name of AMD?) [vbg]
--
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Years back I wanted to upgrade from my Intel Pentium 120MHz to a K6 200MHz. I bought the CPU and ran it. It was so unstable and hot that I was forced to return it 2 days later and get a Pentium 200 (for 2x the price).
A week later the store I got it from told me that the K6 I had purchased was a remarked K6 166MHz. Which explains the high heat and instability.
I have seen everything from remarked P120s (marked to 133MHz) to K6's, and now apparently Althons.
Some people seem to think that they won't get the wool pulled over their eyes because they will looks for all the little signs. Let me say that some of the remarkers out there can do as good a job as AMD and Intel on the cases and covers. You would swear that the K6 I had was real, but I saw with my own eyes the test software reporting that it was a 166MHz CPU. The only way to foil them is to read the speed from the CPU core.
The real problem is that the decision how to clock the CPU is made by the marketing department, not the engineering department. The difference between the chips which are clocked differently is really only one of quality. The good ones don't heat up as much at higher speeds. Wouldn't it be a funny coincidence if a foundry just happened to produce the same quantity of each quality that the marketing guys think they need?
The real irony is that the chip makers suffer from the fact that their quality is too good, so they downgrade a lot of their production. The reason that it's so easy to fake chips is that they all come off the same assembly line. The measures to prevent overclocking are all cosmetic.
I bragged about my Karma at a job interview but I didn't get the job.
All the comments about karma whoring aside, really, Sig, that's an incredibly dumb idea. The public does not need to be educated about what overclocking is. The majority of the public does not need to know that overclocking takes place or how to do it. They just need to know that there are fake Athlon chips out there, and honestly, the 'public' doesn't need to know that either, it's the resellers who need to know. I doubt the shop that sold this chip to this guy realized they were selling a fake chip. The retailers need to run their chips through a test of some sort, some test that doesn't require that they actually boot up a computer with the chip, but maybe a simple electrical or physical test.
Education may be the only defense against exploitation, but you have to be careful who you educate. Educating the public in this case would be futile because half of them wouldn't understand what you were talking about and the other half wouldn't care (not to mention the incredible resources necessary for 'educating the public'). It's better to educate the knowledgable public (ie. the ones selling the stuff) so they can provide good service and abide by the law (which is plenty sufficient, BTW).
If everyone knew everything, that'd be great, but there's no chance that that will ever happen, so make sure you get the right people to know the right things.
I think the public needs to be educated about what overclocking is, how it works, and how to detect it. The industry needs to stop trying to prevent the dissemination of information if it wants to prevent widespread abuse. First, allow enthusiasts to change the clock settings. If they blow their chip up, fine - make it blow an EEPROM if you're worried about warranties should they wish to change the clock setting. Second, make it happen in software - like with the Asus "softmenu" boards.
Education is the only defense against exploitation. The law is insufficient.
I don't think these will help you tell much beyond what stepping number of processor you have. Since 650 and 700 are probably produced on the same process (and the better quality ones are marked 700), it probably won't help.
--
I'm the inventory controller and technician and a local "Mom and pop" computer service center. It's my job to check in ALL the inventory that comes our way. It's also my responsibility to check for *good* hardware. About 5-6 months ago i recieved a K6-III 450 that was on order. There was no etching on the cpu cover plate. The specs we're merely penciled in!?!$ Well...after calling the vendor (who gave me an RMA number), i got a little pissed. I mean who would want to give their customers a bogus part! I wound up talking to Corporate Investigations at AMD. They were OUTSTANDING. What they did was: 1) replace my processor after hearing about the bogus one. (they said it was a "test-fab unit" that should have never been released to the public..) 2) Contacted the vendor we purchased it from. 3) Offered the vendor to replace ALL their bogus cpus
with the real thing at no charge..IF they told AMD who was supplying to them. very nice if you ask me. Felt good too...ensuring that my customers and evyone elses got good solid product.
you never lose in ure razorblade shoes......Beck-Hotwax
The site notes that the Athlon core was the .25 die size and 650 Mhz. Now AMD was selling these 650 cores underclocked at 500MHz, because it was cheaper than going back and making 500 Mhz cores. Pricewatch lists Athlon 500 at ~130, 650's at ~150-160, and 700's at ~190. I think that whoever did this bought Athlon 500's (with the 650 core), took 10 minutes of soldering to undo the underclocking by AMD and overclock it a little to 700, and instantly got over $60 profit per chip (probably more if they got the 500's in bulk). I don't think anyone would take the time to solder a 650 into a 700. Also, I would be very pissed because the guy wanted a 700 because of the .18 die size, which is more overclockable than the .25 of the 650 core.
Am I reading this correctly?
In order to determine if your Athlon is counterfeit, you have to void your warranty.
Someone want to call up AMD and ask them how they suggest we then find out?
Now the problem with fakes shows up. Firstly, it have been said on top of this comment that "now everybody knows how to do it.". Security by obscurantism is no security.
Now to the practical side: To what temperature does a non-overclocked Athlon's plastic case get ? Is it imperative that the case be black for thermal dissipation or could it be transparent so that people could peek at the core inside without voiding the warranty ? Not a translucent case like iMac but a truly glassy plastic.
Not only it would be good to avoid frauds, would look nice too. :)
damit I think they riped me off, when I opened my Althon box all I found was a fried egg and 2 strips of bacon. It actucally worked out well because I was hungry and the egg was sunny side up, Mmmm my favorite. Oddly even though, the bacon did clock in at 700Mhz without over heating, but now my dog is sniffing at my computer case...
I should of notice when grease was driping from the bottom of the box, and another thing, how the hell can you have a good breakfast without hot grits? What are these people thinking.
Atleast Intel gives you free coffee refills
"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -THHGTTG
My experience comes from messing with recycling plastic on a hobbyist level - remolding plastic soda bottles and the like. It can be done very cheaply - see description for this book.
The description of the case - brittle, shinier than the original - sounds like plastic that has been remolded. I propose that the counterfeiters might be just remolding the original cases. Any plastics engineers want to comment?
I wish they actually disclosed the name of the retailer. Such retailers hurt customers AND AMD, and their names should be widely known and disclosed.
Go get your free Palm V (25 referrals needed only!)
AMD has several useful utilities to determine information about your Athlon. You can find them at the following URL:
http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/bin/
Among the programs listed here are things to measure the clock speed, find the CPUID, and other information. Binary and sources are available.
I have no clue how useful this would be in these cases, but it's certainly worth looking at.
What I really wish would happen would be for BIOS manufactures and CPU manufactures to get together and make the BIOS display both the real CPU speed and what it is currently running at in large letters during POST. If it was overclocked it could even display a message stating that in a very clear way (text that fills the whole screen saying "Warning: Processor overclocked"
People who overclock wouldn't be hurt because the banner would be there only for 5 or 6 seconds and would remove Intel's excuse so maybe they would stop locking the clock (yeah right.)
Normal people would freak out if they put thier new 750Mhz Duron in thier motherboard and see such a message.
I am sure that some remakers would get around this by hacking the BIOS, but it would stop people from getting remarked CPU upgrades. Also if someone happend to flash thier BIOS in the future after buying a new PC, they would be informed of the trickery then.
As far as software, could H. Oda's CPUID program be used to verify what exactly you have in your system. It tells me I have a Celeron 300a running at 450MHz. Maybe it is different with AMD CPUs.