Lightsaber: Input Device Of The (Near) Future

Jacek Fedorynski writes: "Take a look at Project Earthlight, described in this interview. Basically, this guy took a webcam and a lightsaber toy and turned them into a virtual saber duel. Sounds supercool to me. Plus, he gets a style bonus for quoting Carmack's .plan." (Admit it -- you're swinging your hands and making lightsaber noises.) Since I grouse a lot about the disconnect between controllers and game actions, this is one of the coolest things I've seen in a long time.

Comments

Improvements

[Splitzy]

I, like evryone else, thinks this is absolutly sweet but I have a few suggestions how to make it even better.

1: Open source the program, that way we can make all sorts of neat interactive games and improve on them.

2: Force feedback. I'd love swinging around a lightsabre at my oponent, but I would like to feel the force of his blade pushing against mine. This would add to the realsism concidering the blade would have actual wieght and resistance...right now you could overswing and miss because you can't physicly feel the lightsabres.

Does anyone else have any additions?

---------------------

"No government has jurisdiction over the truth." - Fox Mulder

Re:Improvements

[Tha Pope]

Geeky point to make here:
It's never going to be close to realistic until real lightsabres are developed. A true lightsabre blade has no mass, so the centre of gravity will be around the centre of the hilt - with his model lightsabre the c.o.g. will be much further forward. In practice this would make a huge difference, considering how deadly they are meant to be.
'Oops, there goes my other arm!'
It'll still be great fun tho' :)

Re:RealityFusion

[Plan571]

If you read the interview then you will see that he mentions RealityFusion quite a few times, and from what he says they have only used the 2-d image from the webcam to create 2-d control. His light saber game has three dimensional movement based on the spherical coordinates from the shoulder to elbow to arm to end of light saber.

Re:he got a girl to sit down next to him!

[Tha Pope]

Wait until he develops a force-feedback version - then the girls will flock to him. :)

How "closely connected" do you want to be?

[kaphka]

The main point of computer games is to allow us to experience things that we can't do in real life. If you make the interaction too realistic, then it becomes just as hard to play the game as it is to do the real thing (and not as rewarding.)

Personally, I'd probably like a "virtual lightsaber," but, like many /.ers, I have experience with martial arts. There are a lot of other people out there who would find such an interface frustrating.

Re:How "closely connected" do you want to be?

[theseum]

For swordfighting games, I think that an actual sword is definetly the best interface possible. Have you ever tried playing Die By the Sword? It was a great game, but it's VSIM technology which used a mouse to control the sword was too damn hard to learn. An actual sword is very intuitive... Though I suppose force feedback would be almost neccesary to make it accesible to "casual gamers." I think the best way to implement this game would be in an arcade, where you can integrate hardware and software. AFter it was succesful there, you could release the hardware and software for the PC. Then open-source hackers could figure out how to operate the device and write linux drivers... Imagine closing frozen programs by slashing their windows... Actually that would be stupid... I better stop now.

Re:How "closely connected" do you want to be?

[gad_zuki!]

The main point of computer games is to allow us to experience things that we can't do in real life.

Naww, the point of a is to game provide a good time, look at the popularity of fishing and hunting games. Not only do people enjoy them they sell quite a bit too.

I really like these simple simulators, like that DJ game for PSX, its fun to play at being a martial artist or a DJ than it is to actually put the huge effort to become one. Its a game, after all.

Re:How "closely connected" do you want to be?

[Signa1 l1]

Quite the contrary. This type of input device would go a great deal further in creating the illusion of a virtual world that the player would find indistinguishable from the real thing.

People are more likely to feel frustration trying to use a keyboard to interact with a weapon than a physical object that more closely approximates the true characteristics of the object.

Don't underestimate the ability of individuals to relate to computer simulations using tangible facimilies!

Re:How "closely connected" do you want to be?

[Ace905]

"The main point of computer games is to allow us to experience things that we can't do in real life. If you make the interaction too realistic, then it becomes just as hard to play the game as it is to do the real thing (and not as rewarding.)"

The reason I play computer games is to experience things that couldn't possibly happen to me in real life. ie: getting shot in the head every 5 minutes playing half-life on Cogeco Server. Every once in a while it's interesting to break the rules a little bit, with cheats for games or walkthroughs, or better interfaces.

BUT ...

The idea behind games is not to miss out on experiencing the reality of a games makeup, but to miss out on the reality of threats to your life.

If I could play multiplayer street fighter by actually fighting with my whole body, (But not getting my ass kicked for real by my oponent), I'd opt for that interface over a crapass joystick any day.

Bring on the lightsaber!

Re:How "closely connected" do you want to be?

[nite-]

I'm not sure what kind of slashdotters you think are out here, but I'm certainly one that couldnt do a judo kick if my life depended on it.. or even worse, if my PC's life depended on it.

The real breakthrough

[JupiterX]

The real breakthrough here could be for the disabled. A system like this could allow deaf and mute people to communicate with the computer using American Sign Language, wearing brightly colored gloves. The coding would be a lot more difficult, but this sort of thing is definitely possible. Of course, many deaf and mute people can just use the keyboard and mouse, but those who are also blind or disabled in another way (lacking the finer coordination needed to use a regular keyboard, perhaps, due to a mental disability) could benefit greatly from this technology. With a few more advances in speech recognition, computers could soon be used as translators between speaking people and non-speaking ones. Yeah, the technology makes it neat to swing a virtual lightsaber, but the possibilities go far beyond that.

Re:The real breakthrough

[MaximumBob]

Ok, I get your point. I guess that my point is that I still don't know how this helps them actually interact with the computer. Interaction is two parts. One, you have to be able to communicate with the computer, as I'm doing through typing this. Two, the computer has to be able to communicate with you. Hence the monitor. This still does not help a blind and deaf person use any software at all.

That said, I do see your point about perhaps translating from sign language into text or spoken words. In effect, the computer would serve the purpose that a human translator does now. However, it still cannot allow a deaf and blind person to carry on a conversation, simply because there's no good way for the computer to translate back.

Or is there?

I honestly don't know. It seems like some sort of rudimentary braille panel would be possible to make, where the computer interpreted the text/voice it was getting, converted it, and relayed it in the form of braille on some sort of panel or pad. In fact, I'd be willing to bet these are already in existence in some form or another.

Still, at the same time, I suspect that most of the things the sighted, have come to expect from computers are probably not feasible. For example, the idea of a GUI is almost certainly not possible, for obvious reasons. In the same way, multimedia probably isn't very likely. Taste, smell and touch, the three senses that our hypothetical deaf and blind person does have access to, don't really have that much to do with the way we talk with computers, at this point.

I suspect that, in all likelihood, the only way a deaf and blind person will ever get the same level of use out of a computer that the average sighted person can is if some sort of "datajack," to steal a term, is invented. And I don't even want to get into the realm of direct neural interfaces here.

Re:The real breakthrough

[Nameles]

I can just see this:
A person that uses ASL doesn't know how to do something, gets mad, and flips off the computer. The computer sees this, takes offense, and formats itself.

Re:The real breakthrough

[iyii]

Just curious, does anyone know the speed of American Sign Language vs. a regular qwerty touch typist in words per minute etc? I don't know much except for hello, and thank you, but I can sign those in one gesture a lot faster than I can type it. Besides it would seem that using ASL to input data into a computer would be less stressful (carpal tunnel syndrome, etc). Then again, it doesn't even necessarily have to be ASL, but perhaps a new gesture based language.

Re:The real breakthrough

[JupiterX]

A person who is both blind and deaf/mute still communicates using sign language. A computer set up in this fashion could aid a blind deaf person just as well as a seeing deaf person, as blind people are no less intelligent than seeing ones, and know how to stand in front of a camera. And as long as they're facing the camera, the software will interpret their gestures just the same as it would a seeing person, and translate accordingly. I'm not saying that this could be used to allow disabled persons to play Quake or use CAD software, but using something like this to simply translate the words of a non-speaking person so that their voice can be heard would be an invaluable tool.

Re:The real breakthrough

[Osram]

Of course, many deaf and mute people can just use the keyboard and mouse, but those who are also blind [...] could benefit greatly from this technology

Do you think blind people cant type? When I was in university, there was also a blind student. Like everyone else, he wrote down the lectures. He had a very small typewriter, which had only five keys, one for each finger. By pressing combinations, he could type all the letters, digits etc. The typewriter created Braille imprints on paper. But it should be quite easy to produce something like this for as a computer keyboard replacement.

Re:The real breakthrough

[MaximumBob]

Exactly how does this help the blind? I mean, if you're blind, you are already not really in a good position to interact with a standard computer, where the majority of the interaction is visual in the first place.

Re:RealityFusion

[molo]

BTW, Digimarc and Wired are giving away free USB webcams (does not include shipping/handling)

Free?

• You must be willing to participate in the Digimarc User Household Group (where you?ll be asked to submit an online questionnaire and monthly email questionnaires regarding Digimarc MediaBridge for twelve months).
  ...
• You must be using Windows 9x or Mac OS version 8.6 or Higher.

Hardly seems very 'free' to me.

Seen it done with a Fighting Game

[doconnor]

I saw something simlar to this last summer at the Playdium in Mississauga, Ontario. It was a fighter where you stand against a blue screen and kick and punch and your charactor would make the same move. Because your game charactor had a fixed set of moves it didn't match your movements precisly, but it worked pretty well.

Re:Slackers in class

[six11]

Best quote from the interview: "I'll try to work on it more, but I'm a student so classwork sucks a lot of my time up." That's funny, that's exactly how I viewed classes, too. (Although I didn't produce anything nearly this brilliant.) The kids who studied and did well never really produced anything dumbfounding. The kids to watch were the ones who tolerated the classes just to get the information they needed, and then raced to the labs to do the real (albeit frivolous) work.

This is the problem with CS curricula. Actually, you can probably say that about any applied science. I predict that within ten years, the "good schools" will be the ones that bite the bullet and realize that hands on learning gets you much farther than the traditional drill-and-grill mode. So what kind of school do you go to?

Neat idea, but...

[LocalYokel]

These things generally don't fly -- only replacements or enhancements to the kinds of controllers people already use. There are a number of "ain't it cool" kinds of controls that you can already buy, but nobody does. I have a 19" monitor, but with a light saber, I think I'd have to step too far back to see what's actually happening while using the controller.

Niche controllers need some demand -- flight sticks and steering wheel/pedal systems are successful because there are a number of flight and racing games. There aren't too many swordfighting games, so you either have to make it very inexpensive and include it with the game, or make the hardware so useful that everyone will want to buy their own.

Maybe people would want one if there were more swordfighting games, but how many games are written to supply a latent demand? Virtually all commercial software (games incl.) is written to supply the well established demand for the buzzword of the month...

--

Re:now all we need a tactile and resistance

[anotherone]

Blade Inertia: throught a fight, the inertia of a blade's motion resists maneuvering. This is a very significant factor in the overall fight.

The blade of a Light saber has no mass.


Don't criticise someone who is attempting to use free software for not using enough free software.

Re:Slackers in class

[asonthebadone]

That reflects your circle of friends more than anything. Everyboy I know that are very successful all attended university.

Re:Haiku

[DrEldarion]

I, for one, found it hilarious.

-- Dr. Eldarion --
It's not what it is, it's something else.

Re:This is the kind of story /. needs

[SEWilco]

Well, I did immediately wonder how to make a user interface to use this to slash my way through Slashdot...

• Cut out that thread...
• Push up this article's moderation...
• Hack off this unrelated branch...

Re:This would never work

[Simm75]

[snip]
>...and can never become a successful
paradigm in the real world of computer gaming.

I'm just concerned that someone used "real world" and "computer gaming" in the same sentence. :^)

But yeah, I bet this would go over about as good as the Mattel Power Glove(TM). Seems like it was more popular with hobbyists hooking it up to various computer ports than it was for actual game play. :^)

ePlanet RIP

[katy]

The Me2Cam and FunFair CD product was developed by Interval funded startup ePlanet. I was the Assistant Producer. There were many challenges in creating that product. I'm not going to go into detail here, but I wanted to say that ePlanet was devoted to expanding the scope of computer-human interface.

To the team's credit, the Me2Cam and Funfair CD won 2000 Bolonga New Media Prize for Most Innovative Product: "Despite the limited set of activities, this video camera/software package represents an amazing breakthrough in the way that children can interact with a computer. The software is effective in letting children control the experience with their whole body, instead of the mouse."

You may be interested in our former CTO's research. We were just ahead of our time.

Katy

Re:Just what I need...

[Signal 11]

Is this any worse than playing with your siblings? >:)

Re:Slackers in class

[nEoN nOoDlE]

the kids who studied and did well did dumbfounding things when they graduated. The kids who tolerated the classes, got stuck on an easy problem that they missed learning in school.

Coming Soon

[gad_zuki!]

The 'electric' version for you ladies.

I can see the infomercial now:

"You mean this would actually make my girls want to use a computer?!"

According to the jargon file...

[Mr. Flibble]

If you read the Jargon file, and specifically this link you will see that under physical activity and sports martial arts is mentioned, so I would have to agree that many slashdotters have Martial Arts experience. Myself I have 9 years experience (started martial arts because of some Jon Katz "hellmouth" experiences, but that is another story.)

What I think would be really cool is to have DUAL weapons. I would much rather wield two swords than one. to differenciate I would guess that they would have to be different colors, but I wonder how you would model them so that they did not collide on the screen?

Re:Haiku

[MustardMan]

there once was a great karma whore
whos poems were trite and a bore
the AC's they whined
he responded in kind
and got moderated some more




Tell a man that there are 400 Billion stars and he'll believe you

Re:Cool, but

[Mawbid]

What's the latency like?
--

What special controller?

[roystgnr]

Take a look at the web site, would you? The "niche controller" is a two dollar plastic kiddie lightsaber toy. The trick is that he's got image analysis software hooked up to a web cam to tell the game exactly where that lightsaber is being held and with what orientation. If you've already got the web cam for other reasons (and they sell pretty well; people like sending their pictures along with personal email, or videoconferencing with good connections) then the "controller" cost in this case is trivial.

Phaser rifles can easily wipe out klingon klutzs

[42821128607675]

I recall that there are several nasty settings on federation weapons in the small hand variety that go from 1-8 the first 2 are the only non lethal settings that they have. Phaser rifles go up to 16 and can be set for a very nice wide dispersal pattern. Also those weapons are tame in comparison to all the other nasties that have weapons like magnetic disruptor technology that many of the other star trek universe's inhabitants have. Also even a clumsy bow and arrow or maybe an old fashioned Colt .45 would kill a Klingon before it even got close. The only people you are going to get are sick and defenseless scientists and even then it's not sure. Klingons are almost like various old time factions of the Soviet Union (check out the stricking similarities in ST:TOS between the USSR's communist regime and the Klingons quite appropriate). Their sense of "honor" overules their intellect.

Re:Slackers in class

[j-pimp]

I predict that within ten years, the "good schools" will be the ones that bite the bullet and realize that hands on learning gets you much farther than the traditional drill-and-grill mode.

I think some hands on would be benificial. This could be implemented by making research part of the undergraduate cirriculum. Schools like research, it gets them fame and money. An undergraduate research program will encourage students to study in there lecture classes because they will see school in general in as much more useful. However, in order for it to be continually successful and undergraduate research program would have to allow students to work on existing projects as well as start new ones. Also the fact that the type of students that will partake in the program lack the skills and desire to make proper reports and notes would have to be taken into consideration. There should be accompaining lectures on technical writing along with plenty of available writing consulation. Also there should be TA's to assist the falculaty advisiors.

So?

[42821128607675]

How is a almost difficult to impliment to use game periphrial making progress? I don't see how that makes for any good accomplishment to mankind or should win any award.

Evidence like what?

[42821128607675]

I would like to know.

Re:This is the kind of story /. needs

[Tei'ehm Teuw]

I disagree, IMO a hack is finding new ways to exploit technology and such. He took known technology and looked at the application of it differently. I think Mr. Wu would agree. A hack doesn't nessasarily mean it's a bad or evil thing.

Re:Not practical

[Russ Nelson]

Silly dweeb! So you use two of them! Computers are like jellybeans. If you only have one of them working for you at any time, you're impoverishing yourself.
-russ

Re:now all we need a tactile and resistance

[nihilogos]

Cheesier way out? "Light saber blades don't have mass, harrumph!"

Yeah they do, E/c^2.

Aoshi

[Kenshin]

Cool, he used Shinomori Aoshi as the opponent. It's hard to pick a cooler opponent than that. I want this game now. :)

Re:Aoshi

[Kenshin]

Actually, a battle with Saitou would be killer.

Cool, but

[molo]

This is neat, and might have uses in VR type simulations, but I'm not sure it'll work well with computer games. The most successful games have a layer of abstraction in their interface, which brings the game-world away from the real world. If that layer is removed, to many people, it becomes more than a game.

Some might think this is desirable, but I believe it could be dangerous. This goes back to that whole "Doom made me such an efficient killer" arguemnt. I'm not sure what the result of something like this would be, but it could be something we're not expecting.

Re:Cool, but

[Cheshire Cat]

Some might think this is desirable, but I believe it could be dangerous. This goes back to that whole "Doom made me such an efficient killer" arguemnt. I'm not sure what the result of something like this would be, but it could be something we're not expecting.

I concur. I think the last thing we need are a bunch of kids darting thru highschool hallways, plastic lightsabers in hand, whacking each other. I can already hear the moans of the dying entwined with the ridiculous lightsaber noises people make with their mouths.

Re:Cool, but

[iCEBaLM]

Some might think this is desirable, but I believe it could be dangerous. This goes back to that whole "Doom made me such an efficient killer" arguemnt. I'm not sure what the result of something like this would be, but it could be something we're not expecting.

Right, and playing Nascar 2 with a wheel allowed me to drive in the Daytona 500 and beat Dale Earnhart.

Please...

-- iCEBaLM

Re:Cool, but

[DgtlGhost]

Right, and Area 51 made me a crack shot. Then of course, I tryed to fire a desert eagle and got laid flat...
I don't care how good you are w/ the game, you still can't equate that to a real dual, at least not well. It just won't work.
Besides, I'd like to see a few more people with the disipline and character that most swordsmen (and women) display. Lets face it, even if it you do get good enough to fence from the game, you don't have a very efective weapon of mass distruction. Sword play is a skill, like all martial arts, and isn't likely to create pchycopaths. At the very least, we'll see them coming at us with a $30 toy from Hasbro

-Earthman

Re:Cool, but

[alhaz]

Intel Create-&-Share cameras come with a bouncing ball screen saver program that works essentially the same way.

If the lighting is right (light behind you rather than infront of you), you can watch yourself on the screen as a little ball bounces around, and you can "whack" the ball with your hands, or a stick, or whatever.

It just sees a dark area moving across the captured image and compares it to where the ball is on the screen. Simple, really. Great time waster.

This is only a small part!

[dica]

I witnessed Project Earthlight in action, and it
does work. However, the original intent of his
research was for a completely different application. I highly recommend reading the <a href="http://www.cs.ucf.edu/~aw47967/reu99/watashi /paper-awu-3dbb.ps">paper</a> a-wu wrote on this, it is very insightful.

from his website:

"The paper was accepted to (/published in) the
Fourth IEEE International Conference on Automatic Face and Gesture Recognition (FG 2000), held in March 2000 in Grenoble, France. I had a short poster session at the conference."

RealityFusion

[cd_Csc]

A company named RealityFusion has done something similar a while ago. From their web site, you can request the SDK. They also have a "Variety Pack" available for download that has a couple of demo programs.

Does anybody here have any experience with their SDK and/or demos? Are there any other companies doing similar things?

BTW, Digimarc and Wired are giving away free USB webcams (does not include shipping/handling) at http://www.digimarc.com/household.

Re:RealityFusion

[Money__]

You must be using Windows 9x or Mac OS version 8.6 or Higher.

That's just cruel!
___

Re:RealityFusion

[Money__]

Requiring someone to use win2k is against some geneva convention crimes against humanity laws.
___

Re:RealityFusion

[cd_Csc]

They send Windows users the Intel PC Camera. Food for thought:

1) Are there Linux drivers for this camera?

2) How immoral/illegal is it to lie about which OS you are using?

Re:RealityFusion

[EvilJoker]

2) How immoral/illegal is it to lie about which OS you are using? How low are you willing to stoop to claim to be using winDOwS?

Re:RealityFusion

[British]

I have an Intel create & share webcam. On my main PC, I have a TV card on it. The cam wouldn't work for more than 30 seconds with it.

On the Compaq laptop, running Win98Se, the cam works flawlessly.

As for the realityfusion games, they are just plain silly. You look like an absolute dork waving your arms around trying to pop bubbles,etc.

I remember seeing a kid play some karate game with the RealityFusion setup. I don't know if he was immersed in an interactive game that makes you get out of your chair, or if he has a severe case of Tourette's syndrome.

problems?...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I'm missing something here... I know that this is a new idea, and, it sounds like a good one - but, such a system seems very restrictive to me...
Firstly, what about depth? moving forwards and backwards would either need very precise length measurements to be accurate without a second camera, would it not...
also, how could such a system be used in a "real" simulation, for instance, turning round, or being required to move outside of the frame...
Believe me, I'd love to pick up a lightsaber and do battle with vader - but the idea seems very much like the very old boxing games, one button to punch, another to block - and how can it be developed into something that can be actually played in a "real" game scenario

Re:problems?...

[pmcneill]

One of the pages (or both, don't remember) mentions that somehow he's able to get the joint angles (or perhaps he does this via extrapolation given the length/orientation of the light saber). In any event, it's probably just straight-forward forward or inverse kinematics.

always one step closer...

[banky]

to Snow Crash. Get this working right and now you have a way for Hiro to have sword duels in the U-Stor-It while goggled into the Metaverse.

Then you can go visit your pals, the poor wage-slaves at Micronation, the first franchulate (they moved to escape the government, back when the government still mattered).

Re:now all we need a tactile and resistance

[Kiz315]

Have you thought of using a gyroscope to simulate mass?

--

Re:Very Nice

[Chagrin]

Just add some form of high-visibility dot to the "batleth". Curviness doesn't matter much - it can all be calculated if you know the relative orientation of the various marked points on the object.

You could get the third translation axis

[khiron]

You could add a Z axis if the camera resolution was up to it by adding an alternately dark/Light thin band around the device. Measuring the width of one of those segments would give you distance of that band, and thats a refference point for everything else. Because the sabre is round rotation would not distort it. In fact I reckon a light sabre is likely to be the best possible input device for a camera (much better than a hand/arm).

The next grand trick

[debrain]

I'm waiting for the Force Feedback version.

You could also get the third rotational axis

[khiron]

You could get the twisting of the Sabre too if you had 4 different barcode like markers embedded in the dark segments of the bar.

This would never work

[Signa1 l1]

The problem here is one of perceptual inconsistencies. The average gamer is far more likely to pattern gameplay movements around familiar mouse/keyboard lexicons. A physical device like this that simulates an real-life weapon such as a gun or sword will interfere with the users' perception of virtual reality and can never become a successful paradigm in the real world of computer gaming.

Nice try though.

College == jobs

[gad_zuki!]

Its pretty sad when people view education as nothing more but a means to the end of getting ahead in the rat race.

Re:College == jobs

[nEoN nOoDlE]

Its pretty sad when people view education as nothing more but a means to the end of getting ahead in the rat race.

yes, it is pretty sad... but as long as people are doing it, I'm not going to lose a job opportunity to some other asshole just because he has that bachelors degree, even though he doesn't know half as much. Companies don't have the time or the resources to test every applicants skill so they look at the degrees you have and the school you went to. If I was planning on becoming a genius hermit, living in the forest and solving advanced math equations, I might not need a degree, but as long as I want to support myself and my lifestyle, I'll go for my degree(s)

Re:College == jobs

[gad_zuki!]

No one is telling you to go be a hermit, but what about finding something you find fulfilling, learning about it, being creative with it, and if you choose starting a career in it. Instead studying something just so you can get your foot in the door so you can "preserve your lifestyle."

You can choose to do that, but knocking others who do interesting things in college like the guy this article or assuming everyone goes to college so they can buy a BMW is about is simply stupid.

Mesa Lika

[nihilogos]

Infering the position and orientation of the lightsaber from a 2-D image is done like this. From the webcam the ends of the lightsaber can be picked out, giving the difference between their respective (x,y) coordinates as Dx and Dy. Next he needs to find appropriate z coordinates for depth which can be calculated from (Dx)^2 + (Dy)^2 + (Dz)^2 = L^2, L is the length of the lightsaber.
This gives (Dz) up to a sign, and then one only of the tip or hilt z-coordinates will completely specify the position of the saber. How does he manage to get, say, the tip's z position? And then how does he manage to pick the appropriate sign of (Dz). Anybody?

Re:Mesa Lika

[bmcnett]

i think the guy mentioned that the z coordinate of the hilt is assumed to be fixed (he claims two degrees of translational and rotational freedom, remember). the guy explained it like this: figure out which point is the hilt and which is the tip. then, visualize (in your head) a sphere where the hilt is the center and the tip is the surface. because it's a sphere, a 2D point on the screen maps to exactly two 3D points on its surface. inverse trig functions do the work of moving from 2D to 3D. and because we assume that the tip is on the hemisphere facing the monitor, we can throw away the case where the tip is pointing away from the monitor. i guess that the problems would be that maintaining a constant z position for the hilt may take a little away from the simulation. and, webcams are not designed for the kind of latencies that games have. webcams are cool for uploading a texture of one's face, though. if this isn't the first popular application we see in games, i'll be pretty surprised.

Re:Upgrade

[the_other_one]

I think I'll try using a cat as an input device for an ATAT.

Level 1 - use a declawed cat

Level 2 - hind claws only

...

Level 10 - Tiger

Haiku (Again?)

[Wog]

There is an error
Device cannot be found
Must be far too small

Sorry, couldn't help it...

Re:Slackers in class

[nEoN nOoDlE]

Oh, and people who actually want jobs that pay well. College might not make you smart, but it does help to have that degree when you're applying for a job.

Limerick retort

[575]

Perhaps, to seek fame is my role
Some opine these contrivances droll
Your statement is fair
And at least you're aware
That a karma whore isn't a troll

Evil empire

[BlueUnderwear]

Unfortunately, only Windows drivers will be available, so tough luck defeating that empire with your lightsaber.

Imagine. . .

[Tei'ehm Teuw]

a Beowulf. . . Oh Nevermind,

Seriously, this is pretty cool. I like the fact that VR is coming around again. The "new and cool" stuff seemed to slow down a lot over the last few years. This kid takes a webcam, a $5 toys r us lightsaber and hacks this out? This is great stuff. I hope Carmack and others like him are listening, there is a massive amount of talent and imagination out there. I love stories like this, where person out of nowhere hacks a solution to something that amazes everyone and does it without the big corporate bucks, just a little hustle and imagination.

Star Wars game (i.e. Jedi Knight & Obi-Wan)?

[antdude]

I wonder if LucasArts would implement this device for their games? :)

Re:Slackers in class

[jidar]

Saying that all bright people don't like college is kind of like saying that noone who doesnt go to college is going to be successful.

There are tons of examples that went both ways.

I think the -really- immaginative and bright people find college cumbersome, but it's probably just wishful thinking hinged on the fact that I personally found it that way.

I suspect it is just a personality thing.

This I will say; I have an instant distrust of anyone who did well in school. I just know they are probably way too conformist for me.

Very Nice

[Kaypro]

This is totally cool. Very nicely done. Would have never thought of using a webcam to determine the players light-sabre position. So when's the batleth (is that how you spell it?) version coming out (Klingon Trek Weapon for you non trekkers) ? I would kick some serious ass in that!

Re:Very Nice

[Tei'ehm Teuw]

Make your own, It doesn't look all that difficult. Read the link under related stuff for the more technical aspecs/

Re:Very Nice

[JatTDB]

That would probably be harder to do...a lightsaber is basically a cylinder...very easy to do on-the-fly video processing to determine its angle and such. The batleth (I don't know the real spelling either) is all curvy and stuff, can be used to attack with either end and the middle, etc.

Maybe that's not as much of a problem these days...video processing/image recoginition stuff has never been my strongpoint.

Re:Wow.

[gunner800]

Maybe after lightsabers, you geeks will figure out how to have sex with real women. Or maybe that's too much?

You do bring up an interesting game idea. Virtual Sex. Just wave your flesh saber in front of the camera and try to bop the computer controlled chick. Lose points if she gets pregnant.

(I tried to make this post less exclusive of the female readers, but it would have turned out just plain indecent)

Upgrade

[N1UGLham]

Awesome! But I think the next step has to be something that incorporates a life-size x-wing. :) or maybe a pod racer...

Damage done!

[Giant Robot]

Think of how many computer monitors will be destroyed by these devices!

Re:now all we need a tactile and resistance

[Kiz315]

Now you can tell I've never tried anything like that, can't you?

--

Re:This is the kind of story /. needs

[Kyobu]

A hack is not only a quick fix; it also refers to an elegant solution or idea, like this one.

now all we need a tactile and resistance

[orpheus]

This is certainly a promising step...

but in my experience, the more experience you have with 'the real thing' (e.g. martial arts, flight, or firearms) the less satisfying the imitations are. That doesn't mean that DOOM or dogfighters aren't fun anymore, but they're fun for reasons only tangentially related to the activities they model. Doom isn't a 'cop-style' tactical shooting simulator, and most dogfight games are pale echoes of a flight sim

Moving up the scale of involvement, manual combat games (martial arts) totally fail for me because of the controller problem. I find the five button arcade interface insulting and unsatisfying, and I think that a swordfighting game would be similarly hollow without the constraints that make real swordplay challenging.

Fortunately, the hollow plastic lightsaber gives us a great opportunity for tactile feedback and resistance.

Striking an opponent's sword has three major components:

Tactile: the 'thump' of impact on a timescale of 0-40 milliseconds
(could be a solenoid in the handle: cheap, easy to install, and minimal software driver needed

Resistance: during an impact, the opponent's sword resists your sword, depending on the force and direction of impact. The force may not be much greater thna the solenoid 'thump', and the timescale is not that much longer (say 100-200 msec), but even brief sustained forces require something far more complex than a single solenois
Possible mechanism: independent heavily imbalanced motorized cams on the axis of the saber shaft, and sophisticated drivers to allow the individual cam torque impulses to sum, simultaneously or sequentially, to the desired force profile.

Blade Inertia: throught a fight, the inertia of a blade's motion resists maneuvering. This is a very significant factor in the overall fight.
Potential mechanism: Easy way out? Use a heavy saber. Unfortunately, this might tend to wreck your den, your cubicle, and nearby friends. Cheesier way out? "Light saber blades don't have mass, harrumph!"

Re:now all we need a tactile and resistance

[orpheus]

Gyroscopes *precess* which means they move at right angles to the applied torque.

If you press on the front of a gyroscope, it tilts to one side (depending on the direction of rotation), etc. This might feel 'cool' to a kid (I think some children's toys have tried this), but in a realistic interface, it would feel incredibly unnatural.

The above applies to 'torques' - forces that tend to alter the axis of the gyroscope. Non-torque ('central' or 'direct') forces produce the same response as they would on any mass. However, this eliminates any advantage you might expect from a gyroscope -- it might as well be a chunk of rock, as far as non-torque forces are concerned.

If a gyroscope is fixed to the outside case of the blade, most reasonable swordfighting moves will produce mostly torque. If it is mounted on a gimbal, most moves will produce very little torque (depending on how good the gymbal is). You could have a variable resistance gymbal; or accelerate and decelerate the gyroscope rotation to modulate the the size of the precession force, but the direction would *still* be all wrong. It would be like wrestling a snake.

Re:now all we need a tactile and resistance

[Signa1 l1]

This is not necissarily so. I've often thought about this problem: how do combatants using lightsabers compensate for the awkwardness of the balance of the weapon if the blade is weightless?

The answer is simple, if you think about it.

The user of a lightsaber would find it almost impossible to properly control the weapon if the only weight were in the handle. The dynamics of the complex movements required for dueling require that the weapon be balanced.

The obvious answer is that the designers of the lighsaber include a mass-simulation technology that does in-fact creat the illusion and physical properties of an even distribution of weight in the lightsaber, enabling the user to correctly judge the force needeed to slash and parry blows with an opponent.

Re:now all we need a tactile and resistance

[L0rdJedi]

Unless you consider that most people that use lightsabers are Jedi and therefore they probably use the Force to help them control the blade. Then there's that whole fiction thing too :)

3d?

[magicsloth]

if you can do this with one webcam and a pc, could you perhaps run another webcam to the side so as to get the z-axis involved too

it might not be too useful for this game but 3d would be better than 2d in some instances would it not?

Re:Haiku

[steeef]

go for some limerics.. or put more work into it, and make a sonnet..

Limerick for AC

[575]

There once was a 'Coward on slashdot
Shallow end of the gene pool's own mascot
He scoffed at new fame
Without even a name
Green with envy of poet's quick upshot

this is nothing special

[plik]

A while ago, I purchased a webcam which included game software somewhat similiar to this. One of the games allowed to you play Basketball, one was I think ping pong, and there were a few others. These were examples of the same (not so spectacular) technology, just implemented in a simpler manner. I don't feel like this is any kind of breakthrough, and probably the only reason why is got posted was because it had the word "Light Saber" in it. Slashdot can be so stupidly sensational. [;

Re:SLASHDOT JERKS OFF!!!

[anilbh]

Linux is great . OK That's what everybody says , because everybody else is saying it . But I don't have the guts to contradict a single line of your comment.

This is still no match for...

[soren.harward]

... the Quake II CAVE. Although it appears the Earthlight fits into my meager student budget a bit better.

Re:This is the kind of story /. needs

[Kyobu]

'Scuse me? This is News for Nerds. Nerds are a subculture. If you're clueless enough to confuse nerds with dorks, you need to go read ESPN or something.

Don't mention that ranged weapons are better

[42821128607675]

Early in the history of man we figured out that fighting with swords in close range combat was a really stupid idea. That's why gunpowder the long bow and other inventions were worked out. I would have to point out that the only possible use a "light saber" type weapon would be for a Lucas Arts(tm) blessed game. Also most of these parephrials are not very useable to most other methods of interaction. Think of it this way. How do I determine that I am actually doing something workeable against a foe if I can't even see the enemy with all the twisting/turning/dodging that would be needed if I looked at the films correctly. About the only useful intreface was perhaps a laser or pulse weapon and a "gun" like thing for the original nintendo and the only game I ever remember that worked with that was that crummy game duck hunt. Oh well maybe there were a couple more but not many. Now if there were sensors and maybe a portable display to see exactly what they were doing then perhaps then but I don't see how that could work. Also scientifically creating such a weapon is almost an impossibility in and of itself. It appears to be a magnetically constricted length of dynamically generated plasma or something like that. Unfortunately to accurately contain a plasma I think you need a torrisonal shaped containment field or you start to leak superheated gas everywhere and considering that if would appear that it have a metal grip the weapon would provide a nice and toasty grip. Not exactly the kind of think that some militia individual would want. Now what would be slightly cool is if quake could be modified to allow for a real assortment of realistic looking weapons with recoil and perhaps a nice large field. Combine that with full battle armor and perhaps a nice holographic interface and death matches would be realistic and give a nice workout at the same time.

This is the kind of story /. needs

[linuxonceleron]

I love seeing these kind of hacks, after about a week of boring stories and napster this and that, we've finally got a sweet hack to drool at. I'm just really really happy here, I've been waiting for a good story for the past couple days, good work slashdot.

Re:This is the kind of story /. needs

[bugg]

I don't think this is a "hack" -- Mr. Wu apparently put a lot of time and effort into doing this properly.

You shouldn't go and call the work that someone spent a large portion of their undergraduate carrer working on a hack.

Artificial Reality

[Pseudonymus Bosch]

I am surprised that nobody links this to the pioneer work of Myron Krueger in artificial reality. He was using video recognisation (word?) as an input in the 80s.
__

Re:Artificial Reality

[kolinahr]

As the creator of Project Earthlight, let me mention that I do in fact reference Krueger in the paper I published. He did very good work.

Just what I need...

[SirWhoopass]

holding a weapon while playing games. Considering the damage my PlayStation controllers have to endure after a bad loss, someone better look into making armored monitors.

Hmm, how I'd like that software

[proxima]

Does anyone know if one can download the software he created? It wouldn't be difficult to reproduce his equipment - a decent video camera, a "$5 lightsabre", and too much time on one's hands.

Just think....

[duber007]

Imagine playing Jedi Knight with this (multiplayer.....)
Watch out Hans, the Princess is mine!

Re:Wow.

[gunner800]

From the looks of yoru web site, It looks like you're the one who could use a little more social interaction.

Haha. The funny thing is that now Slashdot folk are flocking to my site to see what the fuss is. Thanks.

If someone buys something through one of my ads today, I'll cut you in for half...

Webcams

[CycloTron]

Looks like the webcam doesn't pick up very much of the room...too bad...I'd get pretty rambunctious with one of those things...specially the Darth Mal type.

Think of what you could do with two web cams though...3D motion tracking!

Mix that and some glow in the dark gloves/shoes and I could practise my Kung Fu at home against an opponent.

Lets just hope it tracks better than the PowerGlove...

-=CycloTron=-

Re:Webcams

[Maurice]

For full 3D tracking you would need three cameras which are non collinear and not lying on one plane. With two you can probably make good approximations if they are well targeted at the area of interest.

Haiku

[575]

Lightsaber in hand
Leap and slash like a Jedi
Hide broken heirlooms

Re:Haiku

[575]

Moderators heed
Don't elect away these words
My verse can ring true

How About...

[Zachary DeAquila]

...an adaptation for Quake? Use the webcam to track where I'm pointing my QuakePistol, which produces a flash of light when I pull the trigger that gets turned into a shot... turning it on solid is like holding down the fire button... maybe different colors or color-patterns of light are different weapons. Have to move to a 2nd gun in the other hand to control movement/grappling hook/crouch etc. though. I guess it devolves into a pointing device, ableit a uniquely 'wireless' one. Not sure how it'd stackup UI-wise against the standard keyboard/mouse combo for Quake though... but it'd be fun to try!

--Z

PS: Someone keep this post so it can be cited as prior art when the inevitable fairly-obvious patent comes around...

Re:How About...

[Skweetis]

For movement, why not have something like a mouse turned upside down, only with lots of roller balls, that you walked on, kind of like a treadmill or something? And in Quake, the grapple is just another weapon anyway, you would have to just use the one gun for that, or rewrite the game (probably not too hard though, and I have often thought that the grapple would be better if separated from other weapons.)

Good idea, anyway, and a controller which is little more than a flashlight will hardly break your wallet, another plus!

He used the wrong opponent......

[blogan]

If he used Jar Jar Binks, then this program would be in every store today. Of course, I'm sure Lucas Arts wouldn't have liked it, but don't they have a trademark on "Light Saber" anyway? Or is that a "common" word?

Re:A "Cure" for the couch-potato generation

[cswiii]

Yeah, but didn't they say the same thing about the Nintendo Gamepad, or whatever it was, where you did the track and field events by running on the pad? ;)

What about V.R.? Well..

[clintonr]

I always thought the cool thing about virtual reality was the fact that you could be anything you wanted, and not just a humanoid. (connections directly into your brain were the coolest ideas (movies such as The Matrix-- although that just allowed you to be humanoid, and RPGs such as Shadowrun))

This reality-to-V.R., however, allows you to use some sort of an object as a tool to interact with the virtual reality. It seems rather limiting (in the sense that you have to be humaniod, using a tool with your limb(s)), and eventually exhausting through overuse (oh no, im giving porn companies ideas)...

I guess more importantly... the fact that it is a technological advancement in gaming, pushing us further from the old atari ping-pong games, and hopefully inspiring people to use their creativity with what they have :)

Re:Phaser rifles can easily wipe out klingon klutz

[Qui Gon Jim]

Except that Klingons use disruptors and disruptor rifles as well. They hold off onthe batleth use for when they get in close where a rifle becomes unwieldy, or has fully discharged.

Re:Slackers in class

[tjstork]

It depends. I didn't finish college in order to pursue a video gaming fortune that didn't materialize. Lucky for me I bailed AFTER data structures and assembly. Still, there are things where I need to hit the books and learn something a C/S grad would just know. If I had to do it all over again, I would have graduated and had the knowledge. If I do ever get rich, I'm going back and finishing. Being bright and being educated are not mutually exclusive things.

Re:"Festival Mushroom Group"???

[tjstork]

Oh, come on, and you've never, ever strummed an air guitar or held an imaginary gun. Ever? Ever? Are you like even human?

Force Feedback-Only on impact with another lightsa

[BoneFlower]

Lightsabers have mass only in the handle. The blade itself causes no drag, no weight... That is why in the Star Wars RPG by West End you need to have the Force to use it with any degree of safety. If lightsabers were real, you could overswing and miss with extreme ease, the blade has no weight so it is easy to overcompensate. But there is still the matter of when the two blades impact each other.

Why can't deaf people type?

[tjstork]

I mean, sign language is ok, but I would think that typing is simply faster. Perhaps a better use might be to have the computer be able to read facial expresssions in concert with speech recognition. This way you could a real time trek-esque universal translator capable of translating satirical remarks.

Ooops

[Maurice]

Actually three cams would always lie on a plane in 3D space, but they are still enough. Of course more cams (at least 4) would be better.

A "Cure" for the couch-potato generation

[jfortier]

I was in the Edmonton Space & Science Centre where I saw a game that operates on similar principles. You stand in front of a blue screen, and a camera tracks your motions, which control a sort of airborne skateboard-type thing as you fly around obstacles and try to collect points. I played it a few times, and it was fairly fun (although I don't know how much the excitement would stand up to playing it a lot of times).

The neat thing was, however, that after playing it a few times I was realized I was actually getting exercise while playing. It wasn't all that strenuous, but then I only played for about 5 minutes. I think if these types of concepts could be extended and improved , and eventually brought into the home, it could have some really good benefits. With a fairly large screen TV, it doesn't matter if you're a few metres away from the screen so you can jump around as much as you please. Then, parents wouldn't have to worry about their kids not getting exercise while playing video games. As well, people who find normal modes of exercise boring (a lot of people aren't enchanted by the treadmill) would have a fun way to burn off those extra calories.

One upmanship

[Cackmobile]

Why must we always have enevitable barrage of msg saying that this is not a new idea. no matter what comes up someone has already done it before. give it a break guys. Thats what sciences is about, building on others ideas. .

Re:Wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

From the looks of yoru web site, It looks like you're the one who could use a little more social interaction.

Slackers in class

[Brento]

Best quote from the interview: "I'll try to work on it more, but I'm a student so classwork sucks a lot of my time up."

That's funny, that's exactly how I viewed classes, too. (Although I didn't produce anything nearly this brilliant.) The kids who studied and did well never really produced anything dumbfounding. The kids to watch were the ones who tolerated the classes just to get the information they needed, and then raced to the labs to do the real (albeit frivolous) work.

Necessity isn't the mother of invention: it's boredom.

Not practal

[42821128607675]

Games that would require this type of intreface would be intensely CPU intensive I would also imagine that the problems associated with such things would also make gameplay a bitch. The real problem you have to think about is that is VR isn't practal for small computers without millions of dollars for a CAVE system or something similar.

Nice Hack

[348]

This is a very nice hack. And with most good hacks, it opens up a whole new outlook on existing environments.

Look at some of the possibilities. Quake in VR, Online Baseball, Easier input for disabled folks, Kiosks, Advertising, Interactive HDTV, (a stretch), and could bring a whole new level to chat rooms such as this.

Very cool stuff, at a minimum, with all the praise he gave Carmack, hopefully ID will pick it up rather than continuing to try to develop this on their own.