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nVidia GeForce 2 Ultra Unveiled
Jacek Fedorynski was one of the folks who wrote in with a huge slew of reviews of the new GeForce 2 Ultra - starting with Hot Hardware, moving to RIVA 3D, heading to 3DGPU, and ending with FiringSquad, and nV news and probably all the other sites.
web sites split content . .
If they've gotten the drivers right under Windows, why not Linux?
Ranessin
I think you're underestimating the X-Box by quite a bit.
Actually, it won't be 10x more powerful than the PS2. More like twice as powerful.
It's less a matter of "the X-Box is n times as powerful" and much more a matter of the programming paradigm the consoles are best suited for. The PS2 is impressive in terms of pure FP thouroughput, memory bandwidth, etc. Where it suffers is in its lack of high-level programming tools and serious dearth of onboard RAM, especially video RAM. Specifically, the PS2 has 32 MB of main memory, but only 4 MB of video memory. The only good thing is that the two are connected with a high-bandwidth (3.2 GB/s) bus. This compares to the typical setup on a current high-end PC game: whole bunch of main RAM, 32 MB of video RAM, but a low speed (AGP is a bad joke) bus connecting the two. This means that a whole generation of programmers who learned to program 3D games according to the current PC model--that is, "just load all the data you need for a level into video RAM at the start, and work out of video RAM as much as possible"--have to try to figure out a completely different way of doing things. No matter how good they are, they'll never get around the fact that 4 MB just ain't enough to hold detailed textures, not to mention your z-buffer, framebuffer, etc. The obvious solution--find some way to store some of that stuff in the main memory and access it only when needed--ends up requiring a totally different approach to the rendering process. Happily enough, each developer needs to roll the solutions to these problems on their own, in a foreign assembly language, because high-level libraries for the PS2 are, at this point, almost nonexistant.
The result? Developers, especially all those PC developers looking to make the jump to the much higher volume world console gaming, are none too enthusiastic. Meanwhile, despite the very impressive potential of the PS2, the first generation of games is so badly programmed they barely look any different from games for the Dreamcast. In many cases, they look worse (after all, at least DC has 8 MB of video RAM).
Contrast the X-Box. It has a 64 MB unified memory architecture. Not so coincidentally, by the time it comes out, most decent PC 3D cards will have...64 MB of memory. (The fact that the X-Box's 64 MB will also have to hold the game code, etc. is not as large a problem as you think--indeed, most in-game code can fit into a CPU's cache.) The X-Box can access this RAM across a 6.4 MB/s bus--twice as good as the PS2, and better than any current PC card (except the new GeForce2 Ultra).
Best of all, the X-Box will work with both 3D gaming API's around for the PC: DirectX and OpenGL. While one might have some complaints about the peculiarites of these API's, they are many many many many times better than any API's available for consoles, much less the PS2. Plus, their use makes porting any PC game to the X-Box a snap.
Developers, by the way, are much more enthused about X-Box than PS2 these days...
In the same situation, the original Playstation whooped Nintendo's ass even though the N64 was more than 3X faster, and featured stuff like texture filtering and full screen anti-aliasing (which PSX doesn't support.) Of course, Nintendo actually knew the console industry, and knew how to deliver a simple, stable, easy to use product
I disagree. The N64 failed because it used cartridges instead of CD's. For one thing, this meant that its superior processing power was wasted on games with very low detail textures, and thus that its graphics looked no better than those on the "underpowered" PS. For another, it meant that Nintendo could continue to pocket a $15 licensing fee/media cost for each game sold, as opposed to about $3 for each PS game. Guess which console's games cost less? Guess which had more developer support?? Nintendo's error was in treating the market as if they still had a monopoly.
Microsoft is bringing too much PC garbage into the XBox to be able to do that. XBox will not be simple, stable, nor easy to use. It will require updates, and upgrades, and patches.
How do you know? There is simply no basis for this in fact. None. Zero.
Meanwhile, the PS2 will need a cable modem peripheral for Internet capability, fast becoming one of the most important aspects of the modern video-game experience. (Built into X-Box.) As history shows us, that is indeed a killer. How many console peripherals have been widely successful, in the history of console games?? None.
Now, the X-Box does have a hard drive, but it will not be end-user accessible. It is mainly for saving games and caching purposes. If used as MS says it will be used, it is only an asset.
And the X-Box uses a stripped-down version of the Win2k kernel. So? Has anyone shown W2k to be any less stable than, say, Linux running a GUI? Didn't think so. Is there any reason to think Embedded W2k won't be as stable as, say, Embedded Linux? No.
Nothing against MS, it's just that it doesn't understand the industry.
Precisely what was said about Sony before the PS. Sony made great strides to study the industry and not presume to attack it the same way it had in other industries, and from all appearances so has MS.
None of this takes into account the fact that Playstation 2 is coming out more than a year earlier. As history shows us, that's a killer. PSX whopped Nintendo largely due to the fact that N64 came out more than a year later.
Uh...the Sega Saturn came out before the PS. It failed miserably. Why?? Funny you should ask. Seems it was too difficult to program for...
Lastly, Sony is a lot bigger than Microsoft, and they have more developer support and consumer mindshare.
False, fasle and debatable.
MS is going to be eaten for lunch.
Don't be so sure.
Quake 3 run better with SMP turned off, believe it or not...
Funny, but I had no problems installing the Voodoo3/5 DRI drivers from source. Hate to break it to you that the problem is *not* me.
Ranessin
I dunno, I just question why people like nVidia so much...
Because they make good hardware at a good price with great Windows drivers.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Constrast that with the fine, fine output of those 100 engineers (although I suspect that their Linux driver "team" numbers in the ones). The NVidia binary-only driver runs only on particular kernel revisions, and does not allow the user to switch between SMP and UP operation. Worse, NVidia could choose to stop supporting Linux at any time, and there's nothing we could do about. Since we have the specs for the G400, we can support that card forever.
If you want to support a company that is behind Linux, get a Matrox G400. Matrox releases the full programming manuals to the XFree development team, and the GLX and DRI drivers for the G400 are fully open-source. The G400 isn't nearly as fast as the GTS Ultra, but the nvidia drivers aren't open source.
If they hadn't been relased at all I would not be infinitely more screwed since they don't work in the first place. What's the difference b/w having non-functioning driver and not having non-functioning drivers?
Ranessin
BeNews has reported that official, Be-maintained GeForce drivers for BeOS are on their way, courtesy of BeBits. They're just 2D*, but that's still a damn sight better than VESA or greyscale modes.
*: Which stands to reason, since accelerated OpenGL is still in the Real Soon Now stage.
Every day we're standing in a wind tunnel/Facing down the future coming fast - Rush
This sig intentionally left blank.
I'm going to hang that on my wall.
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Weird, I had no problem back in the Riva128 days. Of course, take a look back then. The main reason there were no incompatibility problems with Voodoo back then was because all games were designed with 3DFx in mind. Of course 3DFx had no problems because everyone tested on their card. Of course, take a look at what NVIDIA did back then. The brought DirectX6 support and OpenGL ICD's in, putting a big hurt on 3DFx's Glide monoply. Of course take a look at the now. NVIDIA drivers have been more or less rock solid since 3.x, they have great OpenGL support, and they release high quality products. Compare this to 3DFx that released the totally flaky Voodoo3 3500, that still doesn't have good OpenGL support, and still is in the back of the pack in terms of features. I'm suprised you didn't go all the way back to the NV1 and the load of crap that was. Of course, NVIDIA has made a huge turnaround. The Riva128 was their first real competitive card (and only their second commercial design.) With the TNT they experianced some growing pains early on, but ever since the driver issues cleared up (I got a TNT several months after they came out, and I've had no problems) and so far, the only problems they've had is the fact that their boards are so demanding of current that lower quality motherboards have problems.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The ATI Radeon DDR has both HDTV and DVD support.
Since they don't work for me, I will complain. Because if part of them was open-sourced, it would probably be installed and running for me.
Mike Roberto
- GAIM: MicroBerto
Berto
I'm using Nvidia's latest official detonator release for a Geforce DDR with SMP-enabled quake3 without problems, it's quite smooth and with modestly-high settings I still play between 60-90fps.
This is with detonator 2. I can't vouch for any of these "leaked" drivers though.
Yes I'm pissed at NVIDIA for Be thing. But given that the company does so much for it's users in a day where videocard companies are generally down the tube, I forgive them for it.
NVIDIA is still toe-ing the XFree86 market. But they're doing it whole-heartedly, and the drivers have improved quite a bit.
As for the time it took to release, remember this. The specs for XFree86 weren't really set that early in the game. The driver ABI changed up until right before it's release. Also, an OpenGL driver is a complete implementation of OpenGL. Not only does it bang interrupts, but totally implements the entire pipeline. Functionally, it does just as much as Mesa, but is slightly easier to code because most functions don't need emultors. It's a wonder they got it out in the time they did. As a preempt to any OSS comments, remember, this isn't just a driver, it's an OpenGL implementation. It's also the highest quality GL implemenation on a consumer level card. It is simply too much to ask them to OSS it. They'd be giving away all the tweeks to the GL pipeline, not just register level info. Matrox is really hurting for a good OpenGL ICD. Is it really fair to ask NVIDIA to give them one?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
across multiple pages . .
Just a quick note. If I remember correctly, both IRQ 9 and IRQ 2 use the same interrupt. Actually 2 is connected to 9 to allow for all 16 Interrupts. I've notices that a lot of SB cards default to using IRQ 9, which causes wierd problems when they get used. Just something to check.
kc8apf
$600 for a Voodoo 5 6000? This card will perform nearly as well for much less. (The prices should go down by then.)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
So... with the amount of computing power one of these things has, when will the stupid US laws on the export of supercomputers come into effect and hobble the marketing of this card in places outside of the good ol' US of A?
Also, why would anyone besides IPO millionares or graphics professionals want to spend the price of a low-end PC on JUST a graphics card, which won't even be taken advantage of for another YEAR or so?
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
"I don't think you can hold Nvidia responsible for the possibility that Linux support for you mother board is not quite perfect(If that happens to be the case)."
In addition, 3dfx and ATI don't seem to have that problem...
Ranessin
Actually, in an FAQ released right about when the GeForce2's came out, nVidia was saying that the 128 megs of RAM on the Voodoo5 6000 added up to only about 58 megs of effective RAM. Even 3dfx's competitor says it has that much RAM to work with, so it's more than 32. The only thing that has to be repeated is texture data, I think.
You're forgetting about Capcom. =)
I'm just waiting for the Super Ultra Mega Tournament Champion Edition GeForce Alpha II.
--
And yet, the bandwidth between the CPU and GPU ain't all that hot. And the CPU is going to be throttled due to Windows CE.
Besides, there is more to a good system than graphics. Like how fun the games are. That's why the PS is still going strong despite being so slow.
-- Superlame http://catpro.dragonfire.net/joshua/
hehe.. go ahead and get a Voodoo with an external power supply.. I'd never put one of those in my box, even if it was free. That thing is the biggest freaking piece of inefficient hardware . They need four chips and an external power supply to compete. How sad... perhaps they should have spent more money on R&D, instead of marketing..
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
Actually, a lot of people are willing to fork over that much. Lot's of people bought dual Voodoo2 SLI's for $600. Methinks the bulk of the price is due to the high speed RAM.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
www.sharkyextreme.com also has a good review on this. BTW, has anybody used the video features on this thing? In an age where 3DFx still doesn't do AGP, it's cool that NVIDIA is putting in stuff like support for HDTV.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
If I understand correctly, the Real3D StarFighter (which I happen to own) does this, making use of the AGP bus to access system memory. According to the FAQ, that's why the PCI StarFighters have so much more memory (32-64 MB) than the AGP StarFighters (4-8 MB). If anybody's interested, the StarFighter FAQ is at http://support.intel.co m/support/graphics/starfighter/faq.htm
If you are running Q3A under Win2k, make sure you have r_ext_texture_compress and r_overbrightbits turned off.
Q3A runs fine on my TNT (stb velocity 4400) in Win2k. I plan to buy a GeForce2 MX soon.
Phillip
Isn't Elantra Korean?
What I'm saying is that the Nvidia drivers may not be the problem. Windows may deal with your motherboard the way it needs to be dealt with, but Linux still doesn't perfectly suppord every motherboard in existance. I'd admit that it seems like a bit of a stretch, but certainly possible.
Your other reply is where I see the best arguement for bugginess. ATI and 3dFXs drivers may not have this problem, but do they both use the AGP card as anything other than a PCI card? Nvidia may be using features correctly that aren't implemented correctly for your motherboard.
Or the drivers may just be buggy :). I've had mixed results, in the same system a GeForce 256 works perfectly, but a TNT 2 crashed every now and then. I'm sure the drivers will continue to improve, Nvidia has the chance to get a great position in the 3d Linux market, but still has still has very competent competition.
treke
offtopic but true 15% baah, brew your own mead 26-30% and tastes like a sweet ginger ale if you do it right, leave the cloves out though
Read my plan to save the Bengals
If you haven't noticed someone else post this by now (about half of the posts ive read so far mention this) nvidia has damn good drivers out, and the drivers are stable. also, you can get help on #nvidia on irc.openprojects.net, and the linux dev guys from nvidia are there a lot
I always prefer to start the year off with a bang - or, to be more precise, a series of loud hums, a crackle or two, and
That was probably one of the top ten flames I've ever received.
Too bad you're too much of a pussy to use an actual account, so I could, erm, email you and congratulate you.
Anyway, there's no content to that post, at all. Granted, that's what makes it a flame, and I probably shouldn't be responding to flamebait, but the only thing you actually said with real substance is that you support CEOs raping the public so they can take six-month vacations. Well, more power to you. You probably don't vote anyway.
Sometimes there's value in criticizing successful things. Other successful business practices include slavery, strip mining, sweatshop labor...
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
Question: How did NVidia damage the open source community by releasing Linux drivers? If they had done nothing at all, would that have been better? As I'm sure you already know (as it has been stated thousands of times), NVidia would like to have released open source drivers, but they have NDA's with other companies that prevent them from doing so.
Every company has "tried to strongarm the market" at some point. 3dfx was one of the worst, with GLIDE and their patent on multi-texturing (which NVidia realized was crap, and ignored).
Their product is better than the other ones. In all my extensive research of the subject, I have continuously come to the same conclusion. Furthermore, their closed source drivers for Linux are currently better than any open source driver for a 3D card on Linux. Not to put down open source (I spend most of my time writing open source code), but it's just a fact.
See the .sig.
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Actually, it's a 250MHz core. :)
Thank you
I can get all the Mesa demos to work and have no problems with the GL modules from xscreensaver and xlock. However shortly after I start up Q3A, my entire machine locks up. UT did the same.
After some experimentation, I realized something interesting. If the PCI slot below my TNT2 was empty, it would work. This led me to believe that the TNT2 and which ever card was below it (sometimes a SoundBlaster Live, sometimes an Adaptec 2940, and sometimes an Ensoniq PCI) were having a conflict over an interrupt.
However,
Any ideas?
Ranessin
"But given that the company does so much for it's users in a day where videocard companies are generally down the tube, I forgive them for it."
Down the tube? Like the various companies who are either writing their own 3D drivers for BeOS or assisting Be in writing the drivers? Frankly, I think it's nVidia that is down the tube.
Perhaps if they could put out quality, stable, Be and Linux drivers, I'd change my mind. But till then, I'm quite happy with my Voodoo5 which has 2D acceleration under Windows, Linux (and every other x86 XFree86 platform), and BeOS, and which has (or will soon have) 3D accleration under Linux, Windows, and BeOS.
Ranessin
And just as good Linux drivers.
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I woke up with feet at the end of my legs, is it luck?
PHP is the solution of choice for relaying mysql errors to web users.
I guess, but somehow I doubt that 100 dollars will be a big decider for most would be buyers of these video cards. If you are willing to spend 500 dollars for a cutting edge solution, why not pay 600? Neither card is going to hold their value very well. If the prices were reversed would everyone be singing the praises of the V5 6000? Somehow I doubt it.
some 64MB GeForce 2 GTS cards are selling for less than $300. So certainly, the RAM alone does not cost the manufacturer $300. The main reason prices are so high is the lack of competition. If nVidia ups the ante and voluntarily lower the prices, people will flock to their cards. The can certainly still make profit, in fact, they could make more profit from the volume.
"How did NVidia damage the open source community by releasing Linux drivers?"
It could be argued that every time a company releases a closed source product which uses GPLed code it damages the open source community.
"Furthermore, their closed source drivers for Linux are currently better than any open source driver for a 3D card on Linux."
Only if you can get them to work. If you can't, you're screwed since you have no access to the code and little, if any, access to the developers.
Ranessin
Unfortunately, from what I hear (So take this with a grain of salt) Apple (or their subcontractor) hosed up the Cinema Display and it only works on Macs right now.
I fail to see how this could be true, but I've heard it from a couple of sources now.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The Ultra is for the same people that buy 1.1GHz processors right when they come out. Penis envy. It's a well known fact that people with small penises make up for this shortcoming (no pun intended) by getting the most powerful computer equipment they can afford.
man with 133MHz pentium = has big penis and proud of it
man with 1.1GHz Athlon Ultra Super with 1GB RAM and RAID 5 Hard drive = has itty bitty penis
One small point you didnt mention in your message is that you can find nvidia's driver developers on irc.openprojects.net in #nvidia. They and the other people in that channel have been very helpful to everyone who's visited from newbie to expert. They even have optimized drivers you can test out if you wish. Good group of people over there.
So everyone... support hardware vendors who make a real effort to support Linux and support it well. Companies like nVidia, Creative and Linksys need to be praised for their support of linux more so than other hardware vendors who just pay lipservice to it. Quit arguing over licenses and crap and just push them for quality, supported hardware and software, open or not.
siri
Oh yes. That's it. You do realize there is life outside of /. In the "real world" (ie. the world rarely inhabited by delusional OpenSource fundementalists) NVIDIA is regarded as a high quality company. You go buy that inferior 3DFx product for more money. That's exactly what we want to encourage. Boycott the companies that make decent products, and buy stuff from jackasses like 3DFx that still don't support modern features, and charge too much for cards that really aren't worth it. Buy cards from the same company that convinced retailers to put "Glide required" stickers on D3D and OpenGL compatible games in a last-ditch effort to save the Glide franchise. Buy products from a company that still doesn't have top quality OpenGL drivers. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go sell some blood to afford this card.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I don't think this applies to nVidia at all though. I have 2 TNT2 cards (go q3a!) and the nVidia drivers are great. yes, they're binary only, and yes they crash sometimes. Hopefully this will be fixed soon, though, and at least they're fast. I'm especially impressed that a hardware company can get their act together and maintain a driver source code base that compiles for multiple OSs.
-- 2 + 2 = 5, for very large values of 2
While the raw materials of the card cost about $0.20 (it's all sand and plastic, basically :) there are other factors involved.
;)
There is the chip yield at the fab. They are using the fastest clocked processor and memory chips in a graphic card to date IIRC. If yields are low, price is high.
There's also the need to not kill their current sales of old boards.
And then there is recouping any "hidden" research costs associated with the new card.
And then there is the need for a healthy profit to enable further development and keep shareholders happy.
Besides - if they are priced too high, they will get sales, and then prices will come down. In a competitive market, consumers keep things priced right
ShoutingMan.com
Expensive, large toasters. That require their own 220V power outlet.
Wah!
Yes I read it. I did not intend for my post to be one sided. Argh. I am sorry, thank you for pointing that out.
If you think education is expensive, try ignornace
I'll believe that as soon as the damn things don't lock up my system.
And yes, I have tried just about everything... I'm not some clueless newbie, I've been screwing with Linux since 2.0.34, but this just wouldn't work. It was one of those "unknown problems" last time I tried screwing with it. Haven't had the patience since version 0.93.
What do I do, when it seems I relate to Judas more than You?
Still not dead.
Actuall according to another guy, DirectX8 is completely designed around/for NVIDIA card. NVIDIA is aweful big in pushing for the feautres they want during conferences, (DirectX is planned by hardware and software vendors talking about what features should be put in.) Given the fact that NVIDIA's cards totally dominate in terms of features, I wouldn't be surprised. I do remember, though, that DirectX6 looked awefully like a TNT.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
> Also, why would anyone besides IPO millionares or graphics professionals want to spend the price of a low-end PC on JUST a graphics card
... I lasted 3 years.
... it will last me a good 3 years.
Because when you spend $300 to $400 on a new video card it will last ~3 years, INSTEAD of spening $150 on a crappy 3d card that has to be replaced every year. "Do the math"
I spent $350 on my Voodoo 2
I sent $400 on my GeForce 2
Sometimes you want to buy the most expensive thing you can afford, so it lasts longer.
Bragging rights? Those are gone in 6 months anyways.
Cheers
The Linux/X driver started out as just 2d, and was distrubted with X Windows (and still is). Nvidia will probally follow a simular pattern here, a driver from Be thats 2d only, and then nvidia will release an OpenGL driver later.
I always prefer to start the year off with a bang - or, to be more precise, a series of loud hums, a crackle or two, and
Put blame where blame is due. Lambaste Linus and his desicion to not put in a stable driver API.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I have an Intense3d Wildcat 4000 card installed in my workstation (I'm doing Virtual Reality research). It came shipped with a sheet detailing export restrictions; the reason was most likely the 3 GFLOPS geometry accelerator (full lenght AGP card, full of heatsinks...). BTW, Intense3D is also working on Xfree86 4.0 drivers and their cards' OpenGL support is quite nice... Say OpenGL 1.2 with ARB imaging extensions totally hardware accelerated + 3.2 GFLOPS geometry acceleration + FSAA etc. Damn expensive though....
Actually, I've written quite a bit of code, I'm a CS major, sophomore in college. One thing I've learned is that you're supposed to write the best code you can first time around. What I meant by my post is that NVidia seems to constantly pull a new rabbit out of the hat with each driver release - like, "Hey, I didn't know we could do THAT with just a driver update!" It just strikes me as odd that people who've been using their Nvidia-based cards got "mediocre" performance out of them when they first came out, and it gets better with each driver update. Why wasn't it up to this magic performance level to begin with, and then have that base improved upon? Don't misinterpret my words - obviously driver updates are intended to improve functionality, but compare a GTS running original drivers to one using the aboslute latest 6.xx drivers, and notice the stunning performance differences. My understanding is that the gap should be at least a little smaller.
For the last time, PIN Number and ATM Machine are redundancies!
Get off your ass and compile Xfree 4.0. /use/local/X11R4 or something like that. Then adjust your libpaths and PATH variable to look at the new libraries and binaries.
:)
Set the target dir of the install to
Taadaa! Finished.
It works, I've got it working right now.
It's really worth it.
Oh, the Nvidia drivers for Xfree 4.0 are:
A) Very fast. As fast as the detanator2 series when they came out for fullscreen stuff, and almost as fast in windowing. For those who love quake3 framerates at full detail 800x600 I never drop below 80, and peak at 150. At optimized detail with low geometry this lower bound goes to 100, similar peak, and I can do it at 1280x1024!
(w/ an 800mhz athalon thunderbird to handle all the culling, portals, and BSP stuff)
I've coded some old opengl demos that ran like crap on a TNT2, because I didn't know what I was doing and coded poorly. The Geforce2 gts pumps them out smoothly, despite my poor old code. Optimized code runs even faster.
B) Very stable. I've not had one crash yet. The older nvidia drivers, the ones for Xfree3 were buggy and frequently put your videocard in a state that required a full hard reboot. Virtual consoles still mess it up, but only when you have a 3d accelerated window running. This is more than I could say for the Voodoo3 drivers I ran for awhile.
C) Being updated! There are new versions coming out with speed improvements and support for new versions of Xfree4.0. As soon as the 2.4 series becomes the real real reality and settles down a bit, Nvidia promises to have those drivers out.
D) Very Complete! Take a look at the opengl extensins support when the geforce drivers run. Try it! Use quake3 if you don't know the gl call. Under driver info. It has a ton of stuff, including Nvidia's cool register combiners and a bunch of SGIS stuff. Stuff opengl programmers love to see, I assure you.
Get a good tech job and buy the damn card. You know you want to
- Paradox
Man of the C!!!
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
Look, I care more for quality than a peculiar attachment to a particular OS. Right now, OpenGL on all the other consumer cards sucks compared to NVIDIA's. They're the only ones I can use for 3D Studio. They also have the most stable drivers, and I'm benifeting from all their driver work even though I've got an older card. That's real quality.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
People payed that much because games were severely fill limited, and there was NO other choice. Now, you can get a regular GeForce 2, Voodoo 4, Matrox g400, ATI whatever, and still be quite satisfied with most games. So I think it will be harder to move such a beast, even with all the power hungry users around.
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
Once again, you can find the developers at #nvidia on irc.openprojects.net.
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I'm sorry, but 3dfx is also Satan.
Remember, 3dfx bought up a company and became the only marketing path for products based on their chipsets, leaving a number of people high and dry who were hoping to continue to make boards based on 3dfx chipsets. Thanks, guys. Maybe you should sell out to Apple so we can keep all the proprietary-ness in the same place.
So who's left? ATI? They just brought out their first worthwhile card (The Radeon.) Personally, I'm going to wait and see if they can keep up with the big boys before I commit to buying anything from them. Matrox? Not hardly. Great image quality, but they just don't have the power to pump, and their OpenGL driver quality has dropped some from the old days.
So I guess it's down to 3dlabs and FireGL (whoever owns FireGL these days) which is intensely expensive, but it is somewhat faster than any of the consumer-level cards. Not amazingly faster, mind you, but it should benchmark favorably. The only problem there is that I don't recall seeing anything about Direct3D. I know, I know, it's a commercial level device, but D3D has been gaining footholds even in important places like inside of Lightwave 3D. Yes, I think D3D sucks. No, I don't think we can get away from it now. Microsoft did us all a disservice by creating a lame new 3D api rather than going with OpenGL, and now we have to live with it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Funny... The other 3D drivers don't seem to have thoes problems... But then again, they're open source. I wonder if there's a connection?
Ranessin
At 64MB and 200MHz, my desktop PC is less powerful than this video card! Has anyone ported NetBSD to run on the GeForce2 yet?
Quake 3 is hardly playable with SMP enabled under Win2K with my GeForce 256 DDR.
I don't know what your issue is, but I get a crisp and smooth Quake3 @ 1280x1024x32bpp on my GeForce 256 DDR. HalfLife: Counter-Strike plays at 1024x768x32bpp at 100fps average. Me thinks it's not the graphics card that's the issue in your configuration, as I don't have anything as fancy as SMP.
Xbox is for dim-witted nimrods- not unlike yourself, fine sir. With superior technology definitely on its way, people who buy the Xbox would most likely also buy a bridge, a UFO in my garage, and penis enlargers. Xbox is best suited for X-cons and X-beauty pagent winners - the lowest of the low. I pity you. I truly do.
FACT: Morons like the Xbox.
FACT: You like the Xbox.
FACT: You are a Moron.
I hope you now understand the idiocy that is your existance. May you make better use of the Preview Button next time.
Two scenarios:
Nvidia comes out with next-gen NV 20 now
- NV20 in Fall 2000
- NV 20 refresh spring 2001
- NV 25 available for PC Fall 2001
- NV 25 also available in Xbox Fall 2001
Why should I buy an Xbox when I get the same or better performance on my PC?Nvidia comes out with next-gen NV 20 later (this is what is happening)
- GeForce2 refresh in Fall 2000
- NV 20 debuts spring 2001
- NV 20 refresh best available nvidia card for PC Fall 2001
- NV 25 only available in Xbox Fall 2001
Am I the only one, or does anyone else wonder if MS has anything to do with this roadmap varying from the nvidia pattern of 6 month cycles?the other alternative is that Nvidia just wants to wring more $$$ from the GeForce2 design cycle, and the Ultra is the result - they know people won't be buying the Ultra in droves, but it'll keep the GeForce2 GTS from hitting the bargain bin as soon.
later,
cz
Actually, it won't be 10x more powerful than the PS2. More like twice as powerful. That's nothing. In the same situation, the original Playstation whooped Nintendo's ass even though the N64 was more than 3X faster, and featured stuff like texture filtering and full screen anti-aliasing (which PSX doesn't support.) Of course, Nintendo actually knew the console industry, and knew how to deliver a simple, stable, easy to use product. Microsoft is bringing too much PC garbage into the XBox to be able to do that. XBox will not be simple, stable, nor easy to use. It will require updates, and upgrades, and patches. Nothing against MS, it's just that it doesn't understand the industry. None of this takes into account the fact that Playstation 2 is coming out more than a year earlier. As history shows us, that's a killer. PSX whopped Nintendo largely due to the fact that N64 came out more than a year later. Lastly, Sony is a lot bigger than Microsoft, and they have more developer support and consumer mindshare. MS is going to be eaten for lunch.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Sure, $500 is a lot of money, but this card isn't for everyone. NVidia will eventually release a new entry-level card, the one codenamed NV20, sometime this autumn or maybe early next year This card however is in the same pricerange as 3dfx' infamous Voodoo5 6000, which is supposed to be released this month. Without the Ultra, the Voodoo5 6000 would've been performance leader. Now it's gonna be a much closer race.
I don't think NVidia expects to sell many of these. It's a silly product for a silly performance war which is more about publicity than anything else. If they wantet a serious solution that people would buy they would've made a new faster Quadro, not a $500 card for gamers.
A penny for your thoughts.
A witty
Users
NVidia is harming their users, who are bound to only a subset of the available programs and have no upgrade possibility if nvidia doesn't want them to.
NVidia
NVidia is harming themselves, because their hardware will not work any more when the software changes, unless nvidia is doing a lot of work ... this will cause people to avoid their hardware.
Security
By using closed source drivers you are at the mercy and unestablished trust of said software. Hence you will never know what nasty code lies within these drivers and what could possibly be exploited through said software. No one is able to understand how the driver work nor able audit the driver for security purpose.
Stability
The past have given us the proof that kernel crashes are often related to binary only drivers that no one can fix / audit.
Compatibility
Binary only drivers can not be ported to other architectures, or Unix operating systems.
Standards
The existing binary driver doesn't follow a developed standard ( DRI ).
GNU/Linux philosophy
In NVidia's efforts to gain market within the GNU/Linux community they have underminded and devalued the users of their hardware by restricting the use of the software that drives it, keeping it closed and off-limits to those who only wish to improve the driver. Making the driver open source, making it available for any user to look at/modify/and use would only push NVidia's market in the GNU/Linux community and gain them face.
Why should _you_ the end user care ?
One of the over all goals is to walk away with a better driver for NVidia's line of cards. As of now there is no way to improve the NVidia drivers since there is no source, this is where we come in.
Last but certainly not least this is about freedom. If I buy a card from NVidia I want to be able to look at, modify, and re-distribute the software that drives it. I feel it is my right and yours. Some will argue "But if the code is made available this will give other competitors a chance to gain on NVidia's market!". We do not believe so. We feel this will only make for a better driver, thus giving NVidia a better hold in the video card maket in the GNU/Linux community.
And since when are all 3D cards designed for games only?
Disclamer: I work for Matrox
I don't know what you mean by Matrox not having a "full" ICD. Can you explain what isn't "full" about the one available on their web site?
when i got it just over a year ago, i wanted to give my little amd k6 2 400 machine some oomph. It cost some but i just got a job and was used to a meager existance, so i had some extra cash. Initially i was dissapointed. the games i had worked better on my buddies celeron voodoo2 machine. Thanks then to widispread glide support. but now, as support for opengl and directx has grown, i am really taken by that combo. i ran mdk2 at 1280 x 1024 x 16 and got about 25 fps on the test. i know you gforce2 owners think that that kinda performance is for kids ... by it's plenty pretty and playable.
i really want to move up to a thunderbird geforce2 combo but think that as long as the developers keep writing good code, my ole chugger can stay a bit longer. (in the mean time, that speed deamon will get more attainable as the price slides.)
can't wait to get the new drivers ... maybe the 32bit colour wil be playable :). are yaal slill waiting for the point ? check the suject man, with love there don't need to be a point. thanx nvidia for the cool hardware ... and continued driver support.
--
--
tobam'i: foo for the masses.
I had a similar problem for awhile. I would be good to go until the sound effects got intense, at which point the game (and thus the x server) would hang with the standard irq conflict sound. The wierd part is that they were on different irqs... I checked a great many times. Anyhow, problem was solved by getting rid of the crappy ess1868 that was in there and replacing it with an Ensoniq Something. :)
Hope this helps, though it probably won't.
See you, space cowboy...
Get a life and stop posting that stupid statement on Slashdot. Why should Slashdot not discuss "things that don't exist" (yet)? We're looking to the future, we're not a hardware review site.
Also, X-Box does exist, inasmuch as there are developers writing for it. You can (and probably will) split hairs about "exists". It won't change from non-existence to existence overnight, hence thre -is- an X-Box, it just isn't ready for market yet.
Duh.
The marketing department at 3dfx going up in smoke?
... speed doesn't matter, uh ... anti-aliasing matters!"
"Image quality doesn't matter, speed matters."
(shit - let's improve the image quality)
"32 bits don't matter, speed matters."
(shit, let's do 32 bits)
"22 bits looks just as good as 32 bits."
(i said, let's do 32 bits!)
And now:
"um
(let's just make toasters. expensive, fast toasters)
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
TNT
TNT2
TNT2 ULTRA
TNT2 M64
GeForce 256
GeForce 256 DDR
GeForce 256
GeForce 2
GeForce 2 Ultra
Confused yet?
The way some companies name their products fucking shits me sometimes. Like using the year instead of a version number. People think Windows 98 is old now because 98 is 2 years ago. What's wrong with MS-DOS 7.10/Windows 4.10 which is what the real version number of Win 98 is.
Also, versions jumps like Slakware's jump to 7 to make it sound more recent than redhat's distro; Netscape's jump to 6.
It shits me. I wish companies just keep it simple.
What's next?
GeForce 256 GTS DDR Mega Ultra Platinum M64?
Give me a friggen break!
The TNT2 is PCI to begin with
Their driver can keep improving. I'm not likely to ever use them again. I already get accelerated 3D under Linux with a video card from a manufacturer that knows what they're doing
Ranessin
Perhaps the card is overheating. :) Did you try putting an extra fan on it? I had to do this with my TNT2. Kinda makes sense that when the adjacent slot was empty, the card would stay cooler, as the fan sucks in air from below IIRC. (Or did the TNT2 have a fan? I can't remember...)
That is a very strange problem, though. I can see why the NVidia people had trouble with it... though I agree that they should at least reply to e-mails. They used to reply. I e-mailed once and got an immediate reply from Nick Triantos (head programmer), and it even fixed my problem, but apparently they don't do that anymore. :(
Well that was a fun Holy War. I defend NVidia because I really like the stuff I can do with their cards (programming-wise), and because I have never had a problem with their hardware. I'd like to see their drivers open source, but I don't think it is right to hate them for not doing so. There's a whole lot of good stuff in their drivers that other companies would love to use (seeing as how NVidia has the only complete OpenGL implementation).
No hard feelings. :)
------
Microsoft did some of us a big favour, by pulling together all the hardware-oriented APIs under one umbrella product, DirectX. In common with a lot of posters you seem to be too short-sighted to see why that's valuable, or why OpenGL doesn't fit into that framework.
First let me address the old open-driver issue.
Nvidia doesn't make all the tech they use. They purchase rights to use it. These rights do not include the right to tell everyone how all these things work. So Nvidia, whether it would like to open drivers or not, CANNOT. It's not an issue of Nvidia being dicks, it's an issue of Nvidia being legally bound.
Nvidia is going to try and get drivers out for every market they feel is viable. They're a very busy company, so we'll see about the Be thing. Porting it to BSD shouldn't be too hard, so if Nvidia gets enough email saying, "I use FreeBSD, I'll buy your card if you give me a driver" then thats great. But I doubt many freebsd users (I'm one) use freebsd or openbsd or netbsd for games. It just isn't the focus of the OS. FreeBSD is for high performance stuff on PC hardware. OpenBSD is security, NetBSD is just about propagating. Of all of them, FreeBSD x86 is the most promising. But they need a reason.
I, being a graphics programmer who is devout in his belief OpenGL rules, love Nvidia. They make great drivers for the platforms they DO support, and their linux support is, without question, on par with windows support. Futher, as I've said in other posts, their drivers are very "complete." If you're not an opengl programmer, you may know know about opengl extensions and how much better they can make a given image look. OpenGL drivers with a bunch of offical (SGI recognizes them) extensions are easier to use to make fast, realistic effects.
Since these drivers are complete, Nvidia cards can be used for more than just games. They can be used for simulation, medical imaging, satellite image display, a bunch of cool stuff!
Does 3dfx do this? No. And no one makes a technically better card, with better drivers. I wish they could open source and port to every platform, but I'll take performance over an ethical pat on the shoulder any day.
- Paradox
Man of the C!!!
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
Oh well I guess there's no convincing some people with facts.
Bob Colayco
Editor in Chief, Games
FiringSquad.com
Hardware and Games, News and Reviews
The Xbox does not yet exist.
Yeah, tell them to put $50s in the envelope this week, not $20s.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Which did me absolutely no good. I still get a lock up within thirty seconds of starting Q3A and UT. I asked a question, one responded (very nice and politely) and asked me to e-mail the question to their e-mail address since he hadn't heard of the problem. I e-mailed them the problem. Less than a week later I popped back onto IRC and asked the same developer. He was still no help. Another two e-mails to their e-mail address went unanswered. They lost a customer.
Ranessin
No hard feelings...
And in their defense, they did respond with a problem I first had just installing the drivers (the day they were released, in fact).
This TNT2 did not come with a fan, and since I never had this problem under Windows I didn't see how the card would be overheating under Linux. However, I did open up the case, and my computer is right next to the AC vent in this room, so everything should have remained nice and cool.
Anyway, you defend them because you like them. I criticize them because I've been so disappointed with them, their products, and their idea of "support," particularly under Linux.
Ranessin
"Look, I care more for quality than a peculiar attachment to a particular OS. Right now, OpenGL on all the other consumer cards sucks compared to NVIDIA's. They're the only ones I can use for 3D Studio. They also have the most stable drivers, and I'm benifeting from all their driver work even though I've got an older card. That's real quality"
I care for both quality and my OSes of choice (linux and BeOS). 3Dfx has come out on top in that regard (although Matrox is probably right up there, too). They are the only ones I can use for Q3A. They have the most stable drivers under Linux, and their driver developers are responsive when there's a problem. *That* is real quality.
Ranessin
The Elantra, by Hyundai, is a Korean car. At least with quite a few models, Japenese cars for export have different names than Japanese cars for domestic use.
Windam (Toyota) - Lexus ES300
Fairlady Z (Nissan) - 260/280/300 ZX (Nissan)
and so on.
--
While that's an impressive (and expensive...) bit of tech, the drivers are still closed, right?
;P
But, you say, "It works with Linux! What's you're big problem?"
Problem: What about *BSD? Or Be? A open driver would make support on these (superior?) platforms possible.
I dunno, I just question why people like nVidia so much...
-K
Yeah, that 'superior' comment is gonna get me modded...
=-=-=-=
500 dollars is much less than 600?
Please send me $10. I represent the 'keeping up with the technology jone'ses' group of paupers. My wife eats pentium 120's for breakfast, we are poor, please help.
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
You forgot to mention 3dfx at all, but that's ok, you were just mentioning comapnies that have poor track records.
FWIW: My experience watching my brother try to play games back in the Riva 128/TNT days was *horrible* comapred to my expereince using 3dfx (V1/V2). Every other nVidia driver release would *break* some other game... why? Because people had to code around their bugs, they would introduce bugs, they would fix bugs that would break older games... endless loop.
It is only _now_ that nVidia has even come close to being good with drivers. Meanwhile I don't have a single problem with my 3dfx drivers/games, not one. Caveat: 3dfx had their own proprietary glide interface that also had to be upgraded every few months and they had little to no OpenGL support and I didn't like the D3D support.
I don't really mean to bash nVidia in favor of 3dfx since 3dfx was essentially living off a previous monopoly. What I do mean to say is that 3d video card drivers are crap across the board. To stay up with the newest coolest games and cards you have to be running full speed in the rat race of driver upgrades and patch downloads. It's stupid, I hate it, no one I know likes it... but we don't have a choice. If we want to game we are stuck with the situation.
I know, I know... time to market is *everything* in 3d consumer graphics, but it still sucks and I don't see or know of a solution.
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
That's actually quite an interesting point. Suppose that nvidia had enough money in the bank that they could afford to do that? It certainly wouldn't be profitable, but they would gain customers like nothing else, and nobody else could even come CLOSe to competing. And after they're all gone, back to business as usual. With a convenient corner on the graphics market.
Is such a move even legal?
See you, space cowboy...
Maybe I'm wrong, but...
If quality is what counts (you said they make quality products) then why is there a new card every 6
months or less? Also, why new drivers nearly every week?
There are two ways this could be viewed:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Quality counts, but so does speed. Unlike most companies, NVIDIA manages to keep one from being exclusive of the other. NVIDIA cards are all high quality, but they are released often so that NVIDIA stays on top of the industry. Unlike 3DFx they are not resting on their asses waiting for everyone to catch up. As for new drivers, why is a new Linux kernel released every few weeks? Does that mean that the kernel isn't high quality? Of course not. NVIDIA continually improves the quality of their drivers. There are always tweeks you can implement, and NVIDIA is taking already high quality drivers and making them better. You're complaining about that?
It would seem to me that the wisest choice would be to release a solid card with solid drivers, rather
than a card plagued with incompatibility issues and drivers that constantly improve performance on
each release.
>>>>>>>>
Where is there any indication that NVIDIA's cards aren't solid? The NVIDIA drivers are rock solid. (Have you actually used the Windows ones?) They're all fast, stable, and very compatible. NVIDIA is one of the only cards a workstation 3D user could seriously consider using with apps like 3D Studio. As for compatiblity issues, they're in your head. There have always been problems with crappy hardware and NVIDIA's boards. There were problems with NVIDIA's boards and the early Super 7 ones. There were problems using them in lower-quality boards because of the large amount of current they use. The Via KX133 chip had problems with them. Of course, they were also incompatible with the Thunderbird Athlon's, so it seems that the fault lies with VIA. NVIDIA cards are big, and take a lot of current. If your motherboard manufactuer isn't building stuff to spec, then how can you possibly blame NVIDIA for compatiblity issues?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Yes, but those cards do not use the very fastest 4 or 4.4 ns DDR memory used in the Ultra, but mostly far more plentiful and cheap 6 ns (166*2 MHz). Also, the core is clocked at 250 MHz instead of 200, so that part should be somewhat more expensive too. By my assessment 64 MB 4 ns (250*2 Mhz) could very well cost $300, while the same amount of 6 ns memory might go for half or less.
/Dervak
Actually, I've been on the IRC channel numerous times, and talked with various people. *None* have been able to help me. Numerous e-mails to their address have gone unanswered. Frankly, I'd rather support a company that wants me as a customer and is willing to demonstrate that fact.
Ranessin
Unless all the lambasters posts have been modereted to below one before I came, the only complaints have been legit ones about the price.
Also, let me be the first to bitch, saying that NVidia took a long ass time to make linux drivers, and once they did (around june of 99), it took then almost a year to update them. Yea, they had excuses, like no DRI, but they could have at least updated with a fix to for Xscreensaver's problems.
More importantly than that, as a former paying customer for their products, I don't wan't, excuses, I wan't results. Becuase they couldn't deliver in a timely fashion, they lost a customer (well, probably more than just me).
Ok, a little dramatic there, but the Voodoo3 will last me fine until something better than the NVidia products come out.
Oh, I like getting the ultimate in performance, too. And I don't mind rebooting to do it. However, I do mind being forced to reboot into one specific OS, the only OS that this card will perform in 3D under
Ranessin
Just because Direct3D sucks doesn't mean that the rest of DirectX does - I'd like to see something like DirectX done for Linux, but it's not going to happen. But seriously, look into Direct3D, and you'll see why most games support OpenGL also. It's much easier to write for.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
It is difficult to compare this to operating systems. Not all OSes are designed for the same purposes. Although both Windows and Linux can equally accomplish most tasks, they certainly were not designed for the same purposes. Windows was designed as a consumer product, Linux was designed as a cheap Unix for desktops. Obviously Windows would be superior when it comes to usability, user friendliness, etc (to a consumer). Linux would be superior for a developer/computer scientist/researcher. They are just not designed for the same market. Give me one good reason for a non-programmer to use Linux, it is very hard to come up with one. There are many benchmarks to measure an OS, and you cannot just simply declare one is superior to the other.
In contrast, all 3D video cards are designed pretty much for the same sole purpuse - to play games. The faster they are and the more features they have, the better. That is the only benchmark.
Don't be too offended. The same overuse of tables goes for slashdot too. Although what's wrong with your review of the card? I get "fdf" in my top left -- does someone like tapping the keyboard at your place?
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
ANyone happen to have a video version of the GTS2U tech demo? I would love to see that sharky swimming around in full glory!
I badmouthed NVidia so bad last year and early this year, for not producing a decent Linux driver, I really would hate to buy a card from them. The problem is that they seem so dominant over all other cards makers, not in market, but in product quality.
Next this year, when I buy some new 3d card, it seems that a GeForce2 MX at $150 would be a steal. Will any other company make a chip that will be competitive in price and quality? It's scary:)
The only way I could buy an NVidia card now, and keep my pride, is if they made a public apology to me, and only me, or if they Open Sourced their drivers. That way I could be like "yea, when I say change, they changed".
be-fan - keep up the good work. :)
------
"While we're aware that the Playstation 2 will be released a year earlier, with a large selection of titles, DVD Support and stable gaming, the X-Box will provide...."
(The spokesman pauses and turns, asking an assistant if this is correct.) "Um, excuse me. The X-Box will provide...a PC-like enviroment...with...is this word 'faulty'? Yes? Drivers, a 'No-Firewire Zone' sticker on the bottom, and will ultimately...suck?"
(he turns and runs toward the assistant)
"That wasn't the press release! Hey! Don't you work at VA Systems?"
The spokesman had no other comment.
I was refering to drivers. Why do people like to abuse the moderation system?
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
Hmm, your right. I had heard that before. But anyway, I feel my point stands. I don't feel better about it running Windows 2k instead (and I wonder why CE isn't a better choice here).
Any if it makes Windows users feel any better, I have the same feelings about the Indrama game box using linux. I think game boxes should do without OSs, or rather that the OS should be on the game media, so that programs can strip out the OS if they want.
-- Superlame http://catpro.dragonfire.net/joshua/
Has nVidia made any PCI capabile chipsets since the TNT2 ultra?
Trees can't go dancing
So do them a big favor
Pretend dancing stinks!
Not surprising, really, as the weirdo OS zealots that populate these message boards often mistake posts with technical buzzwords like "open source" and "free" to be insightful. I'm sorry, but they're not. They're just slashdot yes-men.
"Linux? Looks like a thousand monkeys at a thousand keyboards to me. Of course, they also throw feces"
But I'm gonna have to stick with my Matrox G400 until anyone else comes up with half as good drivers for Linux...
"NVidia's Linux drivers are equivalent in speed and exatly equal in features to their Windows drivers. Sometimes, their Linux drivers are even faster."
Only if you can get them to work on your system. If not, you're screwed.
Ranessin
I don't follow how writing software and not giving you the source code is raping the public. Could you go into a little more detail on that point please?
Trees can't go dancing
So do them a big favor
Pretend dancing stinks!
No it's a Honda Inspire.
If the quality and price of the product are the only acceptable factors in whether or not one should do business with a company, well, then, we're all in big trouble.
I have this fight with my girlfriend all the time. I say, "Wal-Mart encourages sprawl, traffic problems, environmental issues, and monopoly power, and bullies cities into getting its way through lawsuits and political action." She says, "But they sell cheap stuff!"
Oh, brave new world...
P.S. I only listed 3DFx as one possible alternative. If you don't like them, buy something else entirely.
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
The really cool thing is that this will "force" everyone else to improve their graphics cards, which means that in another year's time, by the time that XFree86 4.x drivers are available:
The one thing I'd be concerned about, a year from now, is that you might be buying graphics cards with 256MB of RAM, which is more than the amount of "regular RAM."
(I can remember the "good 'ol days" when we upgraded an Alpha 4600 system to 256MB of RAM to help it to better support 40 online users with the ludicrously-wasteful SAP R/3 ERP system. I can now imagine someone putting that much RAM on a video card, for use by one user. Unbelievable...)
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
I am impressed. nVidia has been leading the market since last year when they released the GeForce 256. And even today, the GeForce 256 is still among the fastest you can find on the market, still neck and neck with the Voodoo 5 5500.
nVidia should be commended for continually pushing the 3D graphics technology higher and higher. Most companies would do the opposite in this situation. For example, for a long time Intel has been releasing processors in 33mhz increments, and these releases were far in between. 3Dfx deserves to suffer, they were far ahead of everyone else when they released the Voodoo2 card. What have they been doing since then? None of their products since then were innovative.
With this release, nVidia is at lease 1 1/2 product generations ahead of its competition. Even if the product's technology is not far ahead, at least it more than makes up for it with clock frequencies. It would take 3Dfx to go through another cycle to come up with something that matches the GeForce 2 GTS's speed, and a lot of innovation to match the Ultra. Now, let's lower those prices, and BLOW out the competitions! Price these suckers at $150 per card, and all other graphics card companies will go out of business.
I hope nVidia will learn from 3Dfx, and not sit back and relax after this release. Keep releasing new products every 6 months, and no one will be able to catch up to you.
with humpy love,
with humpy love,
humpmonkey
I'm saying that quality and price ARE the only IMPROTANT factors. So is service, and support. NVIDIA aces all of these. I'm just saying that it is not in one's best interest to go support companies who really aren't as high quality over something like Open Source DRIVERS. You're free to do it, but just realize that by doing so you have no right to complain that computer companies these days don't care about product quality, and care even less for their users.
As for alternatives, you could buy ATI and live with crappy drivers, or buy Matrox and live with (comparativly) crappy performance and bad OpenGL support. Desicions, desicions.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Be sure to look at http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.h tml?i=1298&p=9 for benchmarks with the Det3 drivers. There is a big improvement. I was going to get the ATI 64MB Radeon, but with a $400 price tag, and the GeForce 2 GTS 32MB being almost as good, Ive decided to save $150 and go with the latter. The extra 32MB may come in handy down the road, but... right now I can think of better ways to spend that much money.
Am I the only one, or does anyone else wonder if MS has anything to do with this roadmap varying from the nvidia pattern of 6 month cycles?
You *do* realize that the X-Box is nVidia hardware, and nVidia helped design it, and, and, and...
It's not like MS is the only one who stands to gain from X-Box sales.
--
Maybe I'm wrong, but...
If quality is what counts (you said they make quality products) then why is there a new card every 6 months or less? Also, why new drivers nearly every week?
There are two ways this could be viewed:
1. They're keeping everything up-to-date, because they realize how impatient us computer ners are (hehe)
2. They're simply trying to always stay one step ahead by constantly barraging everyone with new products
It would seem to me that the wisest choice would be to release a solid card with solid drivers, rather than a card plagued with incompatibility issues and drivers that constantly improve performance on each release.
For the last time, PIN Number and ATM Machine are redundancies!
Significantly, I mean you can go out and buy 128MB of RAM for that. Also, V5600 won't be out for awhile, and the price should go down as DDR RAM prices go down. (A big chunk of the increased price is the 230MHz DDR RAM)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
$500 bucks for this thing? My Geforce 256 isn't being pushed at all yet, I'm not gonna throw 500 into a card that won't reach its limits for another 2 years. Well, maybe if halo and tf2 would look better :)
Funny, I don't remember saying I have lots of experience, and yes, I mean next school year. I don't know why I'm bothering to reply to this, I guess I'm just bored, because you've obviously run out of ideas since you're now attacking me, not my argument.
For the last time, PIN Number and ATM Machine are redundancies!
I agree. Firingsquads use of tables is quite intelligent and lowers download speeds due to less graphics. Yes, it's more work for your browser, but a decent browser shouldn't have a problem rendering such. My PII350 on a 56K modem renders the site very quickly using IE 5.x... I'm no Microsoft fan by any means but the facts are the facts (and yes, they do hurt) :(
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Sorry, you won't be working with all of your morals at work. If your Employer say 'Get us some working drivers, we're shipping as soon as we get something stable' That's what you do.
:-)
It's an old cliche, but time is money. And if you don't get those drivers out in time, your employeer may not have the money to pay you.
Later
Erik Z
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
It is perfectly alright for Nvidia or any hardware company to keep source to themselves. They wrote it, and as Linus himself said, "he who writes the code choses the license" or something like that. But what I really dislike is when a potential developer (supporter) of a company's hardware comes along and asks nicely to have specs, register info, programming information, protocol info, etc and the company says no. This goes for any hardware, video card, printer, scanner, whatever. They should be glad and open to anyone who wants to develop new software and add functionality to their hardware at no charge. I know what you are going to say. "But they have IP and value because there register and program info is secret." But programmer aren't asking for circuit layouts, or schematic diagrams, just software and protocol info. Nvidia has had a bit of a history playing games with open source programmers outside the company. They did release some open source code once for 3d on TNT or TNT2 or whatever, but the code was poor, not optimized, obscured, and just didn't take full advantage of the hardware. The Utah-GLX guys petitioned for specs for a while, then it looked like Nvidia might agree but nothing came of their promises. This is why many here distrust Nvidia and their so called support. As many have pointed out closed source just doesn't cut it when you are dealing with a variety of different kernels and distros, not to mention other systems like BSD, Beos, OS/2 and others. Creative released closed drivers for the SBlive at first. But it was unstable, didn't work on many platforms or certain kernels, and a host of other problems. Then they opened up the source and many of the problems disappeared. The point is Nvidia could gain much from releasing good, well documented open drivers or better yet just give out specs and let the programmers go to work for them.
If something is "ultra" there is nothing better--by definition. What's next, the "WonderMungousTippyToppy StupendorMatic"? Video card marketers, telescope designers, astronomers and microchip makers must all be related....
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Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
The other 3D drivers get updated more often, because they're Open Source. However, they shouldn't need to be updated more often. Saying, "okay, the driver API is stable as long as your product is Open Source and you update them whenever the API changes" is a crutch. It's a hack to solve a more fundemental problem. Perfect example: The glue layer between the NVIDIA driver and the kernel is Open Source. However, because the driver API has changed in 2.4-test6, that glue layer no longer compiles. If it was another OSS driver that depended on those particular features, those wouldn't compile either. As it is, driver that depend of parts of the driver API that change have to be updated whether or not they are Open Source. Thus, the problem lies not with the driver (which simply uses all the features of the driver API) but in the API itself (which changes the way those features are accessed.)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I think some people are critical of NVIDIA because the company can't quite seem to figure out what to do. It said it supports Linux, but couldn't seem to release decent drivers until pressured by a handful of articles on Slashdot, Linuxgames, and other sites. It was caught using GPL'd code in the driver, but removed it faster than it said it could. It uses a unified driver architecture so that improvements to the Windows driver show up in the Linux driver, but a marketing manager goes on the record as saying "The only reason anyone would open source something is because they can't do a good job of it on their own."
It get "caught" strongarming volunteer sites by sending out review hardware and then calling in the chips to get rid of information about competitors -- then explains it away by claiming it hires temporary workers with the authority to make those deals but not the oversight not to.
Personally, I think it's a normal company with good hardware that needs to get rid of the marketing department and give the technical people more control.
Read more at my NVIDIA history or analysis pages. I don't really understand what the company's doing, but at least my video card works.
--
how to invest, a novice's guide
I'm waiting for the ATI Psychotic Genocide 3000.
S3 does. I guess they bought out Diamond which is where I got my FireGL card from. I must say, I really liked my FireGL 1000 Pro when I got it - still a good card for 2D applications, although its usefulness for current 3D is starting to wane... They also seem to have dropped the "FireGL" line of things.
Microsoft did us all a disservice by creating a lame new 3D api
What else did you expect? Microsoft has a huge Not Made Here (NMH) problem - if they didn't make it, they need to either:
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
There WAS competition, the RivaTNT. That offered about the same performance as a Voodoo-whatever.
When the Voodoo 2 came out, there was no TNT (yet), and nothing in the consumer field beat a dual Voodoo2-SLI at fill rate. So no, there was no competition, initially.
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
How are they screwing us? Simple. Our license says you can't use our code in closed-source products. They did anyway. Their license says if we use their code without permission, we are violating their copyright, and they are quite likely to sue/press charges for infringement.
We say: You are free to use our code, if and only if, we are free to use yours. They make it illegal to use theirs freely (no reserve engineering, etc) and impractical too (no source). This it is illegal and wrong for them to use ours. If they can withold permission to use their code, we damn well sure can, and do, withold ours.
NVIDIA has THE highest quality OpenGL ICD in consumer space.
Even if that is true, that is irrelevant. Can we ignore a license just because we have some cool stuff? Should they be able to? Hell no!
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
There WAS warning... every summer, NVIDIA releases faster versions of its existing '2' flavor. This is the third summer they've done this so far, from what I understand.
NVIDIA has a very predictable product cycle...
Rinse, lather, repeat. A very successful formula for NVIDIA, that leaves their product line shiny, healthy, and with no split ends.
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
"I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
Most of the reviewer sites just spew out the old GF2 reviews + ultra info/benchmarks. Herr Doctor has a good one at 8 14/index.html>Tom's Hardware</a>. It cuts out most of the fat.
In the end, I'm sure that Microsoft did ask NVIDIA to supply the cards for the X-Box, but you shouldn't interpret that as meaning that the NVIDIA folks were doing Microsoft a favor. Microsoft, and a bunch of other people, are fairly certain that X-Box is going to sell pretty damn well (probably better than Indrema), and NVIDIA would have been stupid to turn its back on that.
Quite on the contrary, I would be willing to bet that NVIDIA lobbied pretty hard to get into the X-Box. In the end, MS had to pick a partner who was willing to a) give them a quality product which b) was capable of delivering good D3D performance, all c) at a reasonable price point (cheap enough to stick in a consumer-level game machine). That NVIDIA answered the call indicates that they have no interest in playing hardball with MS. And frankly, I don't blame them: it would be a counterproductive and costly fight to pick.
What problems are you having? I've debugged alot of NVidia Linux installations and I'd be happy to help you.
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ever thought that perhaps your motherboard together with linux just don't like the having another card near the tnt? I know that that sounds dumb, but in my experience as a pc tech, stuff like that does happen- more often than you'd think.
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
here's you: " Basically he says that the NV20 is going to be fully designed around/for DirectX8 and then he goes to say most Manuf's havent caught up to DX7 which leads him to think that MS may be leading their nose some. "
here's Tom: " Nvidia's next chip 'NV20' is waiting 'just around the corner' and this one will sport a complete new set of features, all for DirextX8. Nowadays you wonder if Microsoft's DirectX is driving Nvidia or if it isnt just the other way around . Most 3d makers haven't even caught up to DirectX7 yet
emphasis mine of course
------ Poo-tee-weet?
Perhaps... But since nVidia was promosing high quality drivers for their cards under Linux, that's what I expected
Ranessin
A couple months back Toms hardware posted a review of Gainwards CardEXPERT video card which had a 400mhz DDR clock and 200mhz clock The card blew many out of the water including the newly released GTS.
The review is here
Not too long after that review nVidia expressed their concerns about the card and told them that they cannot ship it in volume. Back then I didn't think it would not have much impact on nVidia, now I know why.
Anyone else notice a trend in increased costs for a 3d card these days? When released TNT = $150 and GF2 Ultra = $500?
When death looks you in the eye, smile. Someone needs to cheer him up.
You say that be-fan shouldn't have been modded up because, in your humble opinion, what he said was wrong. Well, there are quite a few people that disagree with you, and the point of moderation is to bring up the post that are interesing, insightful, or informitive, not the ones which the moderators think are "correct". Just because you disagree does not mean that be-fan's post was not insightful.
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According to Toms Hardware the D3 drivers will be out for linux sometime inside the next week. Looks like they'll have to redo the recent article they compared linux and win98 3d benchmarks in. I wonder what the new drivers will do for CAD performance under linux?
Actually, I doubt you'll ever see the 6000, or even the 4000. The next card you might see is that rampage with all the goodies. I'd bet 3dfx knows it is in the hole, badly. It's keeping afloat, but not by much. They need something new, and they are working on it. You won't see a 4000 or 6000 because why waste production space on something that isn't going to sell that well?
that quadchip rampage with T&L sound nice. If it's more than vaporware.
Now, if I could actually *afford* one of these wondercards, and the super computer to run it with... *sigh*
It's not just open-source drivers. Remember the story posted a couple weeks ago where it spelled out the way Nvidia bullied web sites, tried to elminate advertising space for their competitor, refused to cancel the contract even if the hardware was returned, and essentially acted like asshole fucks?
And remember all the links in that story to all the other ugly things Nvidia was doing? And their half-hearted, arrogant "apology" (that consisted of claiming that the woman with an nVidia PR address was not an nVidia PR person, but apparently some random woman in the office) in the face of a proposed boycott?
These people suck. Sure, you can get good quality at an affordable price, just like you can get good, affordable stuff from sweatshops and strip mines.
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
I remember not too long ago when 3Dfx (b4 the 'D' got depressed) has this image and NVIDIA was the little guy.
'Course back then if you wanted to use the graphics features of your game you needed a VoodooX...
Every day we're standing in a wind tunnel/Facing down the future coming fast - Rush
This sig intentionally left blank.
Reasons to complain:
1) As a Be fan, certainly your aware of how much trouble nVidia has given Be? Currently, anyone with a GeForce under BeOS is limited to using the Vesa driver, which is quite slow compared to all the accelerated drivers. This is not just for 3D, either, but 2D as well... This is not due to lack of interest in GeForce driver for Be, either, but the lack of technical information that nVidia is willing to give out.
2) My TNT2 *still* won't work under XFree86 4.0 with nVidia's 3D drivers. If I'm lucky, my server will last a whole 30 seconds after starting Quake3Arena before completely locking up my machine... So, I e-mailed their support. No response. E-mailed again. No response. Visited their IRC channel and received no help. I've tried every version of their driver and have never gotten it to work. However, every problem I've had with my Voodoo3 or Voodoo5 has been cleared up by the DRI folks within weeks, if not days.
3) How long was it before they released their drivers for 4.0? I remember the waiting, and it certainly couldn't be considered "shortly after the release of 4.0" as they claimed.
4) With all the time they had those drivers before releasing them, you mean to tell me that they never noticed the GPLed code?
Anyone care to add to the list?
Ranessin
Think about it:
Combine that with all the stuff be-fan said (which I agree with 100%), and you have one really cool company. Sorry, they aren't open source, but you'll notice that none of the open source drivers available compare anywhere near as favorably to their Windows counterparts as NVidia's drivers do. Where I come from, we judge our software on quality.
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About the Microsoft thing. What is wrong with writing code, protecting it, and making a profit? It is those kinds of feelings that get people to think of OSS people as communist. Not that YOU release your software for free, but don't want to give other people THEIR freedom to release THEIR software how THEY choose.
How are they screwing over the OSS community? The used some code. I'm sure a lot of people have used some code. They keep their drivers closed. I've actuall gained new insight into that one. An OpenGL driver is a full implementation of OpenGL. Not just a driver that bangs interrupts, but something that handles everything from glVertex on down. NVIDIA has THE highest quality OpenGL ICD in consumer space. In Windows-land Matrox and ATI are both struggling to get high quality OpenGL drivers. (Read the interview with Matrox's OpenGL guy in this month's MaximumPC.) Asking someone to give that away is simply too much.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Maybe you will say that they have to do it in order to survive; that their competition will use hardware specs to reverse engineer and copy their hardware, and that they won't be able to do the same, making the situation unfair. Well, I want to make it so that companies have to release hardware specs in order to survive. That's why I won't buy closed hardware unless I absolutely must, and will urge others to do the same. If everyone does that, then all the hardware manufacturers will release specs, and it will hurt them all equally and thus not at all.
I meant 128. The competitors to the Voodoo2 were the Riva128, the Intel i740, and the Rendition Verite. In the sense that the GeForce2GTS totally wipes the floor with everything else (including Voodoo5) then the Riva128 and i740 were about the same compared to Voodoo2 as the Matrox Gxxx and Voodoo5 are to the GeForce2GTS. (Although the Radeon is good competiton the the GeForce, I haven't seen very many of them around.)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The thing is that I'm pretty sure they didn't MEAN to steal your code. The GPL code used in the driver was some really simple stuff. I'm guessing that some of the speculations were right (that they were so crunched for time, somebody had just used the GPL-code internally and forgotten to take it out.) The same thing happened to Be to, and I'm pretty sure they didn't mean to either. The thing is the GPL allows you to keep the code for internal versions, and sometimes people forget that the code is in there and release it anyway. I'm sure a lot of people have taken GPL code and forgotten about it. does it make it right? No. But the GPL community brought such cases upon itself by being Open Source, and thus have to be willing to put up with such things. They should bring such cases to the attention of the companies that do it, and should push hard to get rid of the problem. However, it is silly to totally boycott a company because some engineer screwed up.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Their street dates and roll out dates are almost always met. You have to hand it to them.
At least they seem to have taken care of the memory bandwidth problem.
"These are the days that must happen to you." -Walt Whitman
However, these boxes have a LONG shelf life. Developers quickly learn. In the case of the Saturn, some really killer games came out towards the end that really showed of its power. However
A) Sega didn't market it correctly.
B) The dual proc design was inherently hard to code for.
The difference is that dual procs are always hard to code for, while a change in architecture requires re-learning it, but once you get the new paradim, it's easy.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
And I just spec'd a new box last night with a 64MB DDR GeForce II GTS. Back to the drawing board...
Things like "Detonator" and "Firing Squad" and "Ultra..."
Like American and Japanese cars. American cards have names like "Mustang" and "Camaro" and "Viper" whilst Japanese cars have more tranquil names like "Elantra" and "Mirage" and such.
PSX didn't support ANY kind of anti-aliasing. And I've heard rumors that PS2 won't either (though I hope that's just a rumor).
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Why don't they market this thing with a big pair of underwear so guys can wear it around and admit what it really is?
That said, I want one.
I have to admit, Nvidia deserves a lot of credit for making such great chips and pushing the graphical envelope as much as they do, but I'm really not pleased at all with the whole Ultra release. As someone who just bought a new computer complete with a Geforce II GTS, I feel cheated. If there had been some warning (ANY warning) that the chip was going to come in an Ultra flavor, I'd have waited the extra month and made due with my TNT2 a little longer. Instead, I shelled out $400+ dollars for a card that wasn't top-of-the-line for even four whole weeks. The price difference between the Ultra and regular cards notwithstanding, I think Nvidia has made a mistake in releasing the Ultra a.) so soon in its product cycle and b.) without any warning at all. Personally, I'm going to give 3dfx a great deal of consideration when the time comes to upgrade to the NV20 or equivalent.
screenshots
The thing is, without making GDI calls you cannot, for example, overlay DirectDraw over Direct3D. This means that there is no easy way to do a true 2D overlay over D3D graphics. You either have to make your interfaces 3D, do GDI calls (slowdown) or render your interfaces by hand into a texture and update it on a polygon. All of this sucks. Meanwhile, OpenGL has a nice set of functions for drawing lines, pixels, and other two-dimensional elements.
I firmly believe that OpenGL is the superior API. Yes, I respect everything else (Except DirectMedia, which chokes hard in most situations) included under the DirectX umbrella, most especially DirectSound (Though you wouldn't need that so much if Microsoft's normal sound driver architecture supported multiple mixed streams) and DirectInput (which is the biggest blessing to people who make game controllers, ever.) But Direct3D still sucks.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I read Anandtech's review this morning, and I must say:
Smooookin!
But will I buy it? No! $400-$500 for a GRAPHICS CARD is a bit much. I know it can run OpenGL, but on my system it would do me little good until I go to XFree86 4.0.1. I won't do this yet as My fave distro doesn't carry it in any form but alpha.. The nVidia drivers from their site are rotten as far as I'm concerned.
The really great news is this bugger matches the Radeon with the GeForce's 2xFSAA turned on! That's an impressive run for the chip.
But it's still too damn much :(
Lowmag.net
Sorry for constantly doing this in a predominantly Linux based group, but one of the main reasons I have to dislike nVidia at the moment is their lack of support for Be Inc's developers in creating OpenGL drivers for BeOS! The 2D support of BeOS is actually very good with a TNT based card, however it is my understanding (feel free to correct me (please!)), that despite repeated requests from BeInc they still will not give details required for writing OpenGL drivers for BeOS! Other than this I have no real quibble with nVidia (in fact I run a TNT2 Ultra these days), but I sure would like better support under BeOS! Questions/Comments? Chris H
That's fine with me. I'm not particularly happy with 3DFx. The Voodoo3 series was decidedly low quality, they really don't give a hoot about OpenGL beyond the minimum required to run Quake III, and their windows drivers aren't always polished. Matrox is a good company, and they care about OpenGL, but their drivers are less than polished. Neither company offers the power and polish of NVIDIA. Their drivers are stable, fast, and pro-quality. I'm pissed that they don't support BeOS (although if you use BeOS, check out BeNews today. Apparently BeBits is involved in a top-secret project to bring GeForce drivers to BeOS.)
However, in the end, it's what's more imporant to you. I prefer getting the ultimate in performance, and don't mind rebooting to do it. You do mind rebooting and I can understand that.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
My mobo doesn't even have agp! :(
--
"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."
Hmmn
......
:)
At tom's.. he has a interesting quote. on.... this page here
Basically he says that the NV20 is going to be fully designed around/for DirectX8 and then he goes to say most Manuf's havent caught up to DX7 which leads him to think that MS may be leading their nose some.
he ends the page with some trailing dots
Whether his assumptions are true or not its fairly easy to just show the flaws in the logic by pointing out all of the things you did it still is an interesting sitaution
But credit where credit is due
Jeremy
If you think education is expensive, try ignornace
I'm with you. Just upgraded to the ATI Radeon DDR, and couldn't be happier.
God, I really hate Thresh's Firingsquad and their moronic articles. I've never seen so much padding, so much pointless waffle, so spread out over so many pages so that they can get more hits on their banners. Plus, because they use bloody tables all over the place, the pages load extremely slowly on my Solaris Netscape. Argh. Avoid like the plague!
Was that too off-topic? Sorry, but I just had to get this off my chest.
I don't think they can. MS is a tiny company compared to Sony.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
man, i tell ya, i've been waiting for Nvidia to destroy the competition since the days of the TNT. now, with their releasing of a new chip every few weeks (at least so it seems) they are really burying their competitors. now we just have to wait until they release these new detonator 3 drivers for linux. hey, a guy can dream... :)
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This Post has been brought to you by the letter "E".
You gotta love it when a Nvidia's single chip solution performs as well as if not *BETTER* than a double and even quad-chip solution from 3dfx.
I mean parallel processing is cool and all, but why go parallel if it doesn't get you anything better than a serial solution?
Nowadays the only good compettion is from ATI, whose Radeon will probably have better linux drivers than Nvidia, because ATI releases the specs.
The release of this graphics card also featured the release of the Detonator 3 drivers.
Quake 3 is hardly playable with SMP enabled under Win2K with my GeForce 256 DDR. Anybody know if these issues have been resolved with the new drivers?
I don't know why there are so many people against NVIDIA. It seems that everytime news about NVIDIA comes out, people go out of their way to lambaste them. They release OpenGL drivers for Linux, people bitch about them not being OpenSource. It is found that they used a small amount of GPL code, people act as if they closed up the Linux kernel and released their own OS. They get some support for Microsoft, people act as if they are in a secret plot with MS to take over 3D, switch everyone to D3D, and help MS steal GPL code to boot.
Cool off. NVIDIA is a company that has a lot of class. Not only do they make quality products, but they go out of their way to make the user experience better. For example, they continually improve their drivers. Even though the current Detenator 2 drivers are already really high quality, the GeForce2 Ultra comes with the Detenator 3 drivers, which increase the speed by another 10-15% Best of all, you can use these new drivers on all cards dating back to the original TNT. Most companies don't even keep drivers for older cards on their website, much less continually improve them. The performance of the TNT must have improved 30 or 40% from the original 3.x drivers, and those weren't exactly shabby. Wheres Matrox get's major upps for doing OpenGL (badly at that) nobody ever points out that NVIDIA was a poineer in doing OpenGL on consumer cards. Back when everybody was doing "mini-GL" drivers, NVIDIA put a full OpenGL ICD in the box with the TNT. And not just any ICD either, NVIDIA's ICD has full support for everything from Quake to Softimage. Meanwhile, Matrox STILL doesn't have a full ICD. ATI's drivers are still flaky. Yet, everyone is saying "Is there an alternative to NVIDIA?" Hello, this comany releases fast prodcuts, excellent drivers with great OpenGL support, and goes out of it's way to support older users. In a market where good companies like Diamond have dissapeard, and bad companies like ATI abound, NVIDIA really does deserve some credit.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...