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Cheap Linux PDAs
An anonymous reader says: "With all the talk of the dreamcast port I figured I'd post a link to This deal - a "developer" model Agenda Linux PDA for $179 -- a bit more expensive than the DC, but it'll fit in ya pocket ;)" Apparently a soon-to-be-released color version of this PDA was being shown at LWCE (I missed it). I finally got my hands on an iPaq, so hopefully I'll have time soon to try PocketLinux (which sadly lacks a calandering app), as well as
getting X11 on it. I still want to use an iPaq as a wireless X11 terminal. But first I must complete my MAME cabinet. One project at
a time ;)
But I'd like to get 8 PDAs and install linux on them.
Then I'd configure them in a wireless beowulf cluster.
It wouldn't be useful for anything, but can you imagine the bragging rights?
Most of my friends would look at me with newfound respect.
Which says more about my friends than it does about beowulf clusters of PDA's, but hey, what can you do?
This idea really appeals to me.
Maybe I should seek professional help.
--Shoeboy
You've obviously never had to sit in a women's clothing store while your wife picks out the one perfect outfit in the entire universe. I have, and believe me a C++ compiler and vim would make me a happy man. And while we're at it, why do they put women's magazines on the tables at women's clothing stores? The women are the ones shopping, and the men are the ones with time to read something...
I rest my case.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
The people making those comments are probably young [i.e. generation y] Americans. And everybody knows we don't give a shit about our freedoms :P Just as long as you don't take Carson off TRL, we'll be just fine!!!
-Rylfaeth
VNC works much better over slower connections than X, and there are clients for most popular platforms (although I am not aware of one for the Palm pilot).
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here.
PocketPC version here.
There's a SourceForge project, http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/agtoys, that will provide an area for developers to post their stuff. You may want to pay attention to see what people are doing. (The site is new, so there's nothing there yet.)
Yeah, and used cars are cheaper than new ones.
Maybe too much money?
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Nonsense. I use my PDA for humanistic goals only. Look at my schedule for tomorrow:
8:30 - Fight The Man
9:45 - Throw wooden shoe in grinding gears of capitalism
11:00 - Sing "We Shall Overcome" on lawn at local IBM installation
12:00 - Lunch with Greenpeace
See? It wouldn't do to forget any of this stuff, so I put it in my Palm. Don't worry...I'll protect you from the big bad technology slavers.
(\sarcasm)
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
FREEDOM OS?
DOn't you see that linux OS is just as bad as any closed source OS?
I guess YOU are too young to "value" YOUR "freedom"
1) linus, the creator, is a millionaire about 10 time over
2) the kernel is updated by linus, at his leisure. He also works for a company. Don't you see what can happen?? He could, at any moment, sell the kernal rights to a company, whereas they would have the ultimate power. If it were a "Free" OS, it would be released to the public under no license (NOT GNU/GPL/etc.). This is the ultimate freedom, which you fail to realize.
3) if I want to sell gpl'd source, I am forced to give out my source as well, this isn't freedom.
I value my freedom, do you?
The new REX 6000 has 2MBs of memory, a touch screen for data entry, all useful PIM apps (like memo pad, date book, calculator, etc), and is still the size of the original REX's. That is roughly 1/4 the size of a PalmV (about the size of a business card). The thing is small enough to fit inside your wallet!
Last but not least, the batteries last for 6 months of normal day to day use.
I agree that python is great all around; useful and light. But I just don't understand this rabid anti-java sentiment here on slashdot. I mean no one is holding a gun to your head to use it.
Also have you considered that this might be an implementation problem on Kaffe's part? Imean wouldn't something like the KVM be a better option?
That's the way it works on PocketLinux. But loading an application takes a 2-10 seconds, when you run it for the first time since you booted. After an app has been initally loaded, it comes up faster, but it's still a painful experience at this point.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Check www.yopy.com for the latest.
The kind folks at Gmate/Samsung will sell you a dev kit for a trifling $790. Granted, the unit has some nice specs, but that's a hell of a price for a beta model PDA and some free software on a CD. Compared to that, $180 for an Agenda looks pretty cheap.
I played doom on it. It was about 2fps but hey, it was a PDA, very slick.
"If you love someone, set them free. If they come home, set them on fire." - George Carlin
The powerdrain has gotten MUCH better with
more recent versions of the system software.
Two AAA's now last about two weeks with the
machine in 'hibernation' mode - and 6 hours
or so if you leave it fully turned on.
For the usage most people have for PDA's, that's
not *too* bad.
Note that the version that's out now is for
developers - it is NOT the final consumer version.
This version has more memory and more flash than
the consumer unit will have/need - and that may
have an impact on the battery life too.
www.sjbaker.org
Warning troll
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
It's DEFINITELY not vaporware. I bought one
just after Xmas - and I have it in front of
me right now - I've been happily writing
programs for it for several weeks. It runs
Linux and Xfree - as advertised - for real.
You can run PPP on it - so you can telnet into it
or out of it, use NFS with your PC and it's little
flash memory 'disk drive', etc, etc.
Most PC/Linux programs can be compiled to run
on it - although the 160x240 monochrome screen
is going to be a bit limiting and most GUI-based
programs need some UI tweaking to make them
usable.
You can even run 'bash' on it's little screen.
**BUT** the software is still pretty raw...this
is good hardware - but the community needs to
help out with getting the software together.
The handwriting recognition really sucks - but
it has a 'soft keyboard' that's moderately usable.
www.sjbaker.org
I received my Agenda about three weeks ago and I must say that I couldn't be happier. I'm not really using it as a PDA, but as a Mobile Linux Box. For less than $200 I can use it to dial into a network, mount drives via NFS, run just about an X app locally or from a remote Xserver, send/receive e-mail, and many, many other things. The convenience factor of running Linux is amazing. Don't like to use rsync to back it up? Fine, NFS mount the Aganda's drive and tar it up! Don't like using the tiny keyboard for Agenda administration? Fine, telnet to it and do anything that you like. ftpd, httpd (Apache and smaller), fetchmail, and other daemons have already been ported.
The "YoPaq" is nice, I'm sure, but it's too expensive. We can deploy these little guys to our entire sales force without batting an eyelash.
Matthew
Orasoft.org
/. finds me to be 20% Troll, 80% Funny
Hmmm - interesting link.
The Franklin machine doesn't run Linux though.
A "proprietary" Franklin OS running on a
"proprietary" RISC CPU...which means that it's
going to be a pain to port things onto it.
The Agenda runs a fairly standard Linux setup
with Xfree on a MIPS CPU - which is well supported
by the GNU utilities. People are compiling
regular Linux utilities for it on a
several-per-day basis without too many reported
problems.
The Franklin's developer version is also quite
a bit more costly than the Agenda...although
you may get more bang for your buck in terms
of hardware...it's hard to tell.
www.sjbaker.org
If you're worried about this, do what I do. Don't own a PDA or a cellphone.
I didn't pay for my operating system either
SysAdmin Mag ran a dilbert a few months back...Dilbert was lookin at his hand funny and dogbert asked him what he was doin....Dilbert was surfin the web on his PDA ring that displayed 1 char at a time. These PDA things are never gonna see widespread use until people can download and view large amounts of smut on them...preferably streaming color video. Maybe the guy with the PDA beofwulf cluster idea would consider running a streaming QuickTime smut server.
Since when was the word "calendar" a verb anyway?
I didn't pay for my operating system either
Either that or he doesn't want to run Linux. Perhaps he wants to play Half-Life or just watch a DVD. Maybe he wants applications that are written by people whose job security depends on the quality of their work, not script kiddies trying to be more 1337 than the 15-year-old down the street. Or maybe he has a $10 Yamaha sound card like me and wants to hear more than the chirping noise that it makes when linux crashes.
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Win98 sux without these 1337 toolz !!
is a troll someone who is against the grain of the regular sheep?
As long as the sheep are desciples of the Great Open Source Movement. Welcome to Slashdot, leader of the "Closed Minds for Open Source" coalition. Andover.net ownz j00!
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Win98 sux without these 1337 toolz !!
There are so many things wrong with that posting, I'm not sure where to start.
First of all, PDA users are no more "beholden" to a time schedule than users of good old date books and pocket calendars. They serve the same exact function, with the PDAs offering advantages in ease of use.
Second, tracking devices have been around for quite a while now. UPS and FedEx track ground shipments via GPS and cell technology, as do many other private shipping companies. The technique is not at all exclusive to Europe. And as for tracking individuals, cops can already track people by cell triangulation. How would PDAs make a difference?
And what does this have to do with Linux on PDAs?
BTW, if you're gonna use big words, you might want to consult a dictionary first.
Oh crap, did I just feed the troll? Dammit.
-Gabe
Heh heh! Touche!
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
This was a great notice. It just so happens that Icras a spinoff from the old General Magic went out of business, taking the Magic Cap OS with it. Now admittedly the OS was a market place dud. But I still think its one of the best designed PIMs out there completely integrated even with email. So I'm planning to use the Agenda to create an opensource version of the Magic Cap PIM.
Has anyone actually been able to buy one of these Agenda things? I've been hearing off and on about it since fall of '99, always it's "coming soon" or "prerelease" or "blah". Screw that, tell me about it when it's shipping. All the linux-running coolness doesn't count for Jack Shit if you can't actually, physically, right-now-not-next-quarter-or-"soon" buy the thing.
Side notes to some previous posters: why linux instead of (PalmOS/WinCE/other-commercial-OS): because we said so. ;-) Why linux instead of BSD? difference is epsilon small, so if you don't like linux, quitcherbitchin' and port. whining = less time to code! (the NetBSD port proliferation in particular seems a likely avenue for a BSD-on-PDA approach)
--
Fuck Censorship.
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
---
Check out http://althea.sourceforge.net for a spiffy looking Open Source, free as in speach and beer, stable IMAP e-mail client for X windows.
Because some people would rather spent 300 pounds (uk price, for a half decent pda) than 2 pounds on a notepad and a pen.
It has much less RAM, true, but for me the voice recorder was the kicker. I use it all the time.
LOL! "The hard-drive" that's priceless! Takes me way back to my support days! I had almost forgotten how much it sucked to have to deal with non-geeks for anything remotely technical.
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
It is surely the right of the employee that he be able to do as he wish when not at work, and even to have privacy and time to think while at work, but PDA's are an incipient threat to this state of affairs.
Now stop whining and go create something value as penance for this sad speculation. I will resolve two Debian bugs then work on some new open software. You work up your own penance.
Don't bother moderating this up, just take the parent down and don't clog people's minds.
Go out and buy a New PDA with 8M RAM and 16M of flashable space for under $180.00 US for your hardware dollar that is very affordable. Then a linux to the mix you can compile your own kernel flash our linux apps onto and rsync it with your linux workstation
I just acquired an old US Robotics 1 meg "Pilot"(that's what it sez on the case) that doesn't even have the backlit display. Can I still use the latest palmOS apps on it without worry? I have no clue on how to upgrade the PalmOS, or even know if I can.
Oh, you mean a calendaring app. Do you even read what you post?
--
People who apply the term evangelist to Linux developers should be shot.
-- developer_fuze
Oh I'm sorry. I said they don't have the balls. I get it...
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
http://www.linux-magazin.de/ausgabe/2000/09/Helio/ helio.html
the batteries on mine last for about a week. it is majorly a developers version - minimal docs. you need to read the maillist archives.
Mod me as OT, but I thought the whole Gen X thing (as it applies to americans anyways, I dunno how it applies to anyone else, except as to copy the expression..) was about those ppl being the 10th generation of americans since 1776 or so?
in that case, wouldn't it be Generation XI? Or am I totally off base (If it's what the above poster is using.. what happens in another couple of gens, say, after z? aa, ab, ac, etc?
-since when did 'MTV' stand for Real World Television instead of MUSIC television?
This might be a little off topic, but does anyone know where I can get a PDA that has only ash, telnet, and a few other basic things, for like $40 or under. I've looked everywhere but cannot find one for under $100, which I find to be a rip-off, mostly because i don't need a calander or X or anything.
a simple pager system with pretty graphics, maybe a chart, and the ability to interact with the dialog window. not quite the same
Maybe I have a bad attitude, but I don't want a job that restricts what I can and cannot do outside of work. To me, a job is simply a means to obtain money to exist off of. The job itself really doesn't mean anything. Granted, if I'm not willing to go along with my employer's wishes, I'm certainly not fit for the job and should relenquish the position. Being "professional" is for the birds. Being yourself isn't.
-Rylfaeth
The site at yopy.org appears to be down and has been for a while.
Personally, I think Linux handhelds are a waste of time -- it requires too many resources (memory, processor, storage, screen resolution) to be useful on a handheld. But don't let that stop you.
Not everyone has all the time in the world to buy a new device then start rewriting the OS and apps for it to suit them.
What if Pocket PC does everything you wantr already? And better?
What exactly do you want to do that Windows CE will not allow you to do? You can write your own apps using C/C++/VB/Java/More for Windows CE.
You can write your own device drivers etc.
Apart from politics - what is the deal?
Why linux on a pda? PalmOS is better suited for this app.
One of these yet with a PCMCIA slot in it? It would be really cool to be able to connect to the net with one of these and surf. I had a buddy at SBC who had this, but it wasn't running Linux.
Fawking Trolls!
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin
The X protocol itself has no problems with low bandwidth connections - only the applications that use it.
Some years ago I wrote a couple of "real-time" status monitoring apps. One day I ran them over a 14400 dialup connection while doing some support work for the customer. One of the apps was quite good, the other was a dog. The reason for the lack of performance was a bug in the code which made the app update the screen far too often. On the local machine, and even on a 10Mbps ethernet, the bug wasn't obvious.
The moral of the story for X developers - always test your code on a slow link - it'll make bugs like that stick out like a sore thumb.
Of course, I wouldn't want to use an X word-processor or something like that over a slow link, but for some applications it works just fine.
--
Every bloody emperor has his hand up history's skirt [Peter Hammill/VdGG]
I bought one last year. It blows royal dick. The two AAA cells last about overnight even if you turn the device off. There is a major power drain on the board, period. In case you don't believe me, go to http://www.agendacomputing.com and check the discussion board. My personal verdict - this thing is a waste of money. I had my whole team ready to order and we had to opt out after the first one showed up. Maybe in five more years.
A screenshot of YDK is available here : http://myhome.dreamx.net/wserver/yopy/yopy.htm enjoy.
rr
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
so hopefully I'll have time soon to try PocketLinux (which sadly lacks a calandering app)
Well... uh... I certainly hope that's in development.
Hmmm, I know that one of the most valuable parts of my Palm for me is the Datebook app... the point of a handheld at this point seems to be that it is an organizer. Now, I'm no fan of the PocketPC, but I'd rather use that than a handheld OS that lacks basic PDA functions.
I thnk that Palm may be the best handheld OS out there in terms of functioning as a basic PDA with a flexible platform. PocketPC is good for trying to squeeze a desktop into your pocket.
Now, I ask this question with total honesty and openness: Besides the "hey that was a cool accomplishment" factor, what is the point of having linux on a handheld?
-J
Karma: T-rexcellent.
i overheard the ipaq guy (the one with the ponytail) from compaq talking to the chilliware people at linuxworld. they're going to make there nexxus pim work with the ipaq and pocketlinux.
StarOffice obviously isn't a console app.
However, what of the social implications? PDA's represent a sort of slavery, as the user of the PDA is beholden to a time schedule and can never have any excuses. The electronic brain he carrys around with him has become a millstone, as it keeps him on the straight and narrow. This is not such a concern now, as PDA's are still simple, but in the future when they are web annabled they could be used by businesses to keep an eyes on their employees at all times, much like long distance lorry drivers in Europe are watched constantly by satellite. Is the employee of the future, and indeed today, to have to privacy at all? It is surely the right of the employee that he be able to do as he wish when not at work, and even to have privacy and time to think while at work, but PDA's are an incipient threat to this state of affairs. The most insidious thing about PDA's is that everyone see's them as benevolent. I am not saying that they need be dangerous for sure, I am just saying that it could well become an important issue. If I were a betting man, I would say that PDA's are the next major civil liberties issue.
You know exactly what to do-
Your kiss, your fingers on my thigh-
You know exactly what to do-
Your kiss, your fingers on my thigh-
I think of little else but you.
>calandering app
All that and it strains spaghetti too? (okay okay, it's colander but still =P )
E.
www.randomdrivel.com -- All that is NOT fit to link to
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
Simple, cheap. I paid $140 and they cost less now. 8 MB, 2B flash, re-flashed with linux+kaffee. Specs here. Java is just wrong for this - it takes about 30 secs to start, and 15 secs to load an app. I want to put in Python instead and see if that makes it usable. I can think of a lot of things I'd do with this, with a decent software infrastructure. Java is a dead weight holding this thing down, I hope that Python will be more like wings.
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
here's another one
It's at a similar stage to the agenda, but has the advantage of an MMC slot
stay frosty and alert
In such a box, yes, it makes a lot of sense to develop & run a free os. But on a handheld, which you cannot build yourself? The OS comes with it.
I'm not against figuring out a way to run linux on these things; maybe eventually someone will develop a linux version (or app) that actually makes it more worthwhile for people to use that instead of WinCE/PalmOS.
I'm still waiting for the day to come where we can build our own laptops, vs. buying an overpriced offering from a specific company.
It's also about supporting a hardware company that truly endorses the open-source model. It's sad to see so many open-source afficionados buying PDAs from Compaq (and thus indirectly paying license fees to Microsoft). -- Kris
a couple of people already responded mentioning the fact that the vr3 has more memory and whatnot than the palm. It also has a 66Mhz processor, while i believe the palm just has i think a 20Mhz or so. So basically it's better hardware than a palm, hence it CAN be called a cheap pda for that price.
"Weasling out of work is important to learn; it is what separates humans from animals. Except for weasels."
Why did anyone start using Linux in the first place then? If people start using it, then apps will come. Saying that I started using Linux with the 1.2 kernel impresses some people (although I don't think it's that impressive.) It's not that hard to do; most apps will be compatible with few modifications if X runs.
There is a cheap Linux-based PDA out there. The Helio by Vtech. I have one, and have to admit, that it's great except for one serious drawback: the 70Mhz electronics depletes the batteries at a breathtaking pace. Otherwise it features robust and natural stroke recognition (doesn't screw up your handwriting like Palm), ultrafast operation, cool voice system. All the bells and whistles in short. Costs $150.
Where's the quality industrial design? It looks like one of those cheap iMac-inspired PCs: They use the colors from the iMac, but don't take even the smallest bit of the industrial design behind the iMac. At least the iMac looks sturdy.
:)
Drop your Agenda PDA and watch it shatter as it hits the ground... it looks like if you hold it with a bit to much zest you'll crush it and it's bubble-gum flavored insides will spill out. Steve Jobs would probably like it, because not only is it lickable, you probably could actually take a bite out of it.
There are many people who dislike the iMac, but most people have to agree that at least it has quality industrial design. So why is it, that when everyone decides to copy the iMac, that they leave out one of the most important parts of it's design?
And let's get away from the fruity colored PCs/accessories. They don't appeal to larger corporate buyers, for one. Especially in a PDA, where the buyer is probably going to be someone a bit computer savvy, they are highly unlikely to be attracted to it because of the color. In fact, they might very well not buy it (when the would have otherwise) because of the iMac-inspired colors. Then again, die hard computer guys and gals would just paint it themselves.
If only all my PCs were jet black like my ThinkPad 570... there's some quality industrial design, in a color that matches everything.
To put it bluntly, that's just stupid. This is a PDA we're talking about - it's not a freakin' political system!
Do you refuse to shop in any store that has a "proprietary" (oh no! not that!) point-of-sale system running on their cash registers?
Are you boycotting VCRs until you can get a Linux-based TIVO? (so, does anybody have the source code to the "application" that runs on the oh-so-Free TIVO? Are y'all forking out the monthly fee to the Man for the "proprietary" scheduling information?)
Are you refusing to drive until the auto manufacturers start using Embedded Linux to control all the CPUs scattered around the car?
I'm all in favor of Ideals. But you're not working with Ideals - you're just mindlessly bleating the latest KoolRad jingoism.
- Old Man of the Mountain ---- "I want to disturb my neighbor"
Here is what would make me buy a PDA: 16bit color screen Basic PDA functions (email, calendar, contacts) MP3 player ebook reader Internet access (online or offline) Last week I finally bought a PDA. I was going to buy a Palm 3c, but ended up getting a PocketPC HP Jornada. The screen quality and and the feature set did it for me. And the fact that I can get a 1GB microdrive and have a ready collection of MP3's, books, pictures and anything else I could want. The bad is it's Windows based. Pocket Word and Excel aren't needed. The OS is clunky. I'm still learning how to use it, but I don't think Alt-CTRL-DEL belongs on a PDA(HP task swither). And you actually have to use the task switcher to close apps. I noticed it getting slower after two days, then saw that I had IE and the book reader each open a few times. Who wants to put up with this on a PDA?
Me think u got tooooooo much time in yer hands
~~~Please pass the salt, I hate unsalted MD5s
You've obviously never had to sit in Fry's while your nerd stud picks out the one perfect peripheral/software app/whatever-fucking-gadget-he-needs-to-get in the entire universe. ;o)
BTW, I got my honey the Agenda to play with while I'm shopping. Aren't you supposed to be thrilled that it's busted six ways to Tuesday? "Me Groc. Groc love broken metal. Groc will fix. Ooop Ooop."
Cheap? If any number of 2nd hand Palm IIIe organizers are available on eBay for about $130, how is $179 "cheap"? Especially considering the software base, quality of developer tools and resale value? For slightly more money, go IIIx or a Handspring Visor.
Call it a fun opportunity to hack on a Linux-based PDA for not an exorbitant amount, but don't call it a cheap PDA.
How many schedulers there are for the Linux console altogether? Just one which is in alpha.
But it's still a great product. By the time it's released to the consumers, it'll be much better. As far as the "iMac" style, it's actually fairly nice. I don't know what the consumer versions will look like for sure, but the original black and white developers model is nice. The current developers models are blue and white, but I haven't seen one for my self.
Personally, I think that it's a great system. The entire system is open sorce. The hardware developers in Hong Kong are listening to developers' comments and modifying the hardware to make it better. The VP of R&D is actively answering questions on various aspects of the design.
There's also a coolness factor involved in running linux on a handheld. Mine is set up as a fully functional webserver. Somebody even ported Apache to it. Not really necessary, but kind of cool. It may not be perfect now, but check again when it's released to the consumers.
Sean
I know it's swimming against the current, and maybe it's because I'm so used to "traditional" interfaces, but the Palm always left me cold. I prefer WinCE to PalmOS as well, and Linux would be even better if there is a handheld-specific interface.
You know .. if you really need to mess with the guts of your handheld, you connect it to a pc and telnet to the handheld's CLI, but when you're trying to work with the thing it should have a handheld-specific interface.
Isn't Red Hat doing something in this direction?
... or am I mistaken as usual?
Tell me this, why is it that he can only make updates to the kernel??
is a troll someone who is against the grain of the regular sheep?
With all the ports going on, and the new embedded push at LWCE, I'm dyin' here, waiting for a port to the Motorola Pagewriter 2000 to come out. It's running a Dragonball with 4 or 5MB of RAM. I wrote to Motorola, asking if they're cooperating with the ucLinux.org people, but they sent a reply pointing me to the list of prepackaged offerings they give away or sell.
I really just want to do IRDA, GPG email, and do keyword searching on my newsfeeds. Seeing PocketLinux getting underway is getting me antsy.
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Tic Tac Toe? Say no more! Sold! I'm getting my wallet!Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
Here's the site:
Agenda VR3.
It is not a "cool" factor, it is about running a FREE (as in freedom) operating system.
If you don't value your freedom that much, then I see why you think it is ridiculous.
Support The GNU Project!! http://www.gnu.org
I'm not trying to knock the unit, but I would hope that people who are serious about developing for the device would purchase it (hence the "developer edition"). It seems like a lot of people show up on the mailing list expecting a fully functional unit, when there is still a lot of work to be done.
lay off the acid man.
I laugh at people like you, you will not even realize what is happening until it's too late.
/whatever the hell I want to do with it, is FREEDOM. Once linux is taken over by the corporate world, zealouts like you will go to another underdog, like HURD. That's the point.
PS. If the GPL is just like a copyright, then there must be no difference. Stop talking about how the GPL = Freedom. IF that were the case, the Copyright would = freedom. Even if you DO get the SOURCE code, it's still not freedom.
me having the ability to take code and put it in a closed source project/sell it