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Polar Detector Spots Neutrinos

Posted by Hemos on from the ping-ping-ping-ping dept.

C. Mattix writes "It looks as though they finally got some - MSNBC has a story on the polar station that detected neutrinos. " It's got a good explanation of the AMANDA station and what they're doing - not the heaviest scientific article, but good to read.

54 comments

  1. Woohoo!! by HerrGlock · · Score: 3

    So that means that they have discovered something that does nothing? Invisible, has no mass and travel at fantastic speeds?

    You mean they have finally discovered ill-suited laws that Congress tries to pass? Wow.

    Maybe they should have set up camp in Washington DC.

    DanH
    Cav Pilot's Reference Page

    --
    Cav Pilot's Reference Page
    UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
    1. Re:Woohoo!! by Jace+of+Fuse! · · Score: 2

      So that means that they have discovered something that does nothing? Invisible, has no mass and travel at fantastic speeds?

      And they went one mile below the surface of the south pole just to find it.

      Maybe they should have set up camp in Washington DC.

      No, the device is sensitive to Muons, not Morons.

      "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

      --

      "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

      Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
    2. Re:Woohoo!! by Mr_Dyqik · · Score: 1

      They haven't discovered anything particularly new

      (Super) Kamiokande and the Home Salt mine detectors have been picking up solar and cosmological neutrinos for years now.

      But being at the south pole they get a slightly different view, due to the different position in space, as neutrinos pretty much ignore matter, like the Earth.

    3. Re:Woohoo!! by esonik · · Score: 1

      But is the Cerenkov radiation visible through 1km of ice ? I doubt this.

    4. Re:Woohoo!! by Mxyzptlk · · Score: 1

      The ice at that location is one of the clearest materials on earth, which is the reason that they picked that location. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ice is so clear partly because of the high pressure one mile down, and partly because of the pureness - it is almost only H2O.

  2. The matter's body thetans... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So, if I understood correctly, neutrino's are everywhere, but don't usually interact with anything... So in a way, they're to elementar particles what body thetans are to humans?

  3. six for six by diagnosis · · Score: 2

    So the neutrino was the last of the leptons and quarks for which there was not experimental evidence. Now what?

    Good history (although the translation from French is kind of amusing) here

    and this background info is a little better (also, there is more yellow on the page :)
    http://www.ps.uci.edu/~superk/neutrino.html

    1. Re:six for six by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      There has been "experimental evidence" for neutrinos for years. Other experiments have been detecting them. The problem has been the eficiency of the detectors. Since neutrinos don't interact readily with matter you need a heck of a lot of matter (ie the earth and some thick ice) to get a reasonable number of interactions to produce photons that you can detect. Other experiments use huge tanks of heavy water surrounded by photomultiplier tubes deep underground or tanks of 1,1,1-tricholoroethane (dry-cleaning fluid). One of the great mysteries is the observed neutrino flux from the sun. Current astrophysical models predict between 1.5 and 2 times the number of neutrinos from the sun than we observe (IIRC). Part of this may be due to inefficiency in our detectors, errors in our theories of stellar behaviour or errors in our theories of fundamental particles.

    2. Re:six for six by Basalisk · · Score: 5

      Just for those that don't understand what leptons and quarks are, here's particle physics 101:

      Leptons are the 'light particles'. they have less mass than most other commonly seen particles. There are six types. The electron, the muon, the tauon, and the neutrino. Now that looks like only four because their are three types of neutrino, the elctron neutrino, the muon neutrino and the tauon neutrino.There are three types so that the 'families' are preserved.

      Now the nuetrino was introduced in order to preserve a quantity known as spin. All the leptons have spin 1/2, and are fermions. Fermions are particles that follow the Pauli exclusion principle, so no two fermions are in the same quantum state. Now when a neutron decays into a proton and an electron, charge is preserved, whoever spin isn't, because the neutron has spin +-1/2, the proton has spin +-1/2, and so does the electron. In order to get the spins balancing, you need a neutral extra spin 1/2 particle.

      Now about those 'familys' I mentioned earlier? Well, only the electron is stable among the non-neutrino leptons. The others decay into an electron and a bunch of neutrinos. However the number of particles in each family remains constant. So when a muon decays (1 muon), it decays into an electron (1 electron), a muon netrino (1 muon) and an electron _anti_neutrino (-1 electron)

      So there are six leptons, tauons and muons decay into electrons, but leave behind neutrinos of the same family.However, the universe would not be at all interesting with only leptons. There are quarks as well.

      There are also six flavours of quarks. This may or may not be coincidence. Last I checked physicists were unsure if there was a link between quarks and leptons. The six quarks are Up and Down, which form protons, and other stuff that decays into protons (and various leptons). There is strange and charmed, and top and bottom, which make up weird particles that tend to be heavier.

      Quarks are never seen alone. They bind together in groups of three or two, and have a charge of +2/3 or -1/3. Now a group of three quarks (called a baryon or heavy particle), such as a proton would have two quarks with a charge of +2/3 and one with a charge of -1/3. I think a proton is uud. Now a neutron(ddu) turns into a proton when one of it's down quarks turns into an up quark, an electron, and two neutrinos. It does this using the weak force, which I'll get to later. Quarks also come in groups of two, which are a quark and an antiquark. These are mesons. They tend to be things like !ud or !du.

      So you now have leptons, that help balance things and quarks, that stick together. But what forces act on them? Four. Gravity, Electromagnetism, Weak and Strong nuclear forces.

      The strong force is what groups quarks together. All quarks have a color, red, green, or blue. Now in a baryon or meson, the overall color must be white. So a baryon is made up of a red quark, a green quark, and a blue quark. A meson usually has a blue colored quark and an antiblue colored antiquark. Or red/antired, or green/antigreen. As long as no red green or blue shows, the universe is happy. All this is kept in check by the strong force and it's messenger particle, the gluon. Gluons carry color between quarks. If a red quark changes to a green quark, a red/antigreen gluon is emmited, and when it hits a green quark, the antigreen and green colors cancel, and the previously green quark becomes red.

      Then there is the weak force. The weak force changes things. It is responsible for the changes in a neutron that cause it to decay. There are three carrier particles for the weak force W+,W- and Z. they carry electrical charges of +1,-1, and 0 respectivly. Now when the d quark in a neutron decays, it emits a W-. the charge is conserved by the W- taking away -1 from the -1/3 to give a +2/3 charge. Now we have a u quark and a W-. the W- then decays into an electron and an electron antineutrino.

      Then there is the electromagnetic force, which has as its messenger the photon. Now when two electrons pass by each other and deflect, a pair of photons is exchanged. These photons, like all the other messenger particles are virtual. They only exist for a fleeting second, and don't do much apart from tell the particles what to do. Electromagnetism only talks with particles with electric charge.

      Finally there's gravity. Physicists havent yet got Quantum gravity, so they don't yet know how to fit it in with everything else. It's carrier is called the graviton, but nobody has yet caught a live one. Mostly because the energy needed to turn a virtual graviton into a real one is huge.

      One last thing. The messenger particles are all bosons, so the can be acting cohesivly in a group. This gives things like lasers their intensity. Fermions can't do this, so you'll never see a easer.

      The reason neutrinos are so hard to spot is because the have no mass, they don't interact gravitationally, they are electrically neutral, so they don't talk electromagnetism, and they aren't a quark, so they don't talk colors with the strong force. They can only be detected by their interaction with other particles through the weak force. This is what makes spotting them big physics.

      BTW, remember that I may be wrong. IANAPhysicist.

    3. Re:six for six by caffeinated_bunsen · · Score: 1
      >BTW, remember that I may be wrong. IANAPhysicist.

      Why not? You sound as if you've got basic particle physics down pretty well. That's gotta be the most concise, while correct, explanation of those ideas I've ever seen. Maybe you should just get a job at a high school and improve the quality of instruction there.

      --

      Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
    4. Re:six for six by volsung · · Score: 2

      You don't teach this stuff at the high school level. You have to first try and get across ideas like force, energy, work, power, acceleration, etc. often without the benefit of calculus. (Your school may vary.)

    5. Re:six for six by tb3 · · Score: 1

      Agreed. The first part of that I got in 2nd year university phyiscs, and I never could keep the spins straight ( + 1/2, -1/2,-1/2, +1/2 , sheesh!)
      The calculus, (and there's a lot of it) gets hidden in the algebraic notation of quantum physics. It looks simple, but it's not for the faint of heart.
      BTW my high school Newtonian physics had it's fair share of calculus (especially useful for acceleration). Your milage may vary.
      -----------------

      --

      www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance

    6. Re:six for six by no+names+left!!! · · Score: 1

      *applauds* thankyou for that, best explaination ive seen yet- and ive been looking around for a while (since reading Stephen Baxters book Time). Thanx Again

    7. Re:six for six by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
      My previous comment didn't seem to get through..

      Good job, just a few nitpicks:

      There are also six flavours of quarks. This may or may not be coincidence. Last I checked physicists were unsure if there was a link between quarks and leptons
      They're pretty sure. It shows up in grand unified theories, and I think there are more mundane reasons to believe it as well.
      Now when two electrons pass by each other and deflect, a pair of photons is exchanged.
      Actually it's just one virtual photon (to lowest order).
      Finally there's gravity. Physicists havent yet got Quantum gravity, so they don't yet know how to fit it in with everything else. It's carrier is called the graviton,
      Current thinking is that quantum gravity won't turn out to be like an ordinary quantum field theory on a background spacetime, so it probably won't be describable in terms of an exchange particle (graviton). However, current thinking is that it also ought to look like an ordinary QFT at sufficiently large scales / low energies, so in those regimes it ought to look like there's a graviton, though if you were to look closer you'd probably find out that it's not really a particle.
      The reason neutrinos are so hard to spot is because the have no mass,
      The Super-K results suggest that at least some of them do have mass.
      they don't interact gravitationally,
      Everything interacts gravitationally, even massless particles, because everything has energy and energy gravitates. After all, photons are massless yet light is deflected gravitationally.

      The problem is just that gravity is so weak, we can't hope to detect neutrinos (or any other individual particles) just from their gravitational effects alone.

    8. Re:six for six by krlynch · · Score: 2

      Bravo! Most of my particle physics colleagues couldn't give a better brief explanation. In less than a page, you've succeeded in summarizing the last fifty years or so of high energy physics brilliantly!

      I did want to mention one thing. You said:Last I checked physicists were unsure if there was a link between quarks and leptons.

      In fact, we are pretty darn sure that there IS a link. We don't know exactly why there are three families (or generations) of fermions (although there are many ideas out there), but we DO have a good understanding of why there are as many leptons as there are quarks. In fact, the reason we believed for many years that there was a top quark and a tau neutrino is that they HAD to be there.

      The reason is a tad technical, and has to do with something called gauge anomaly cancellation. If the number of leptons and quarks was NOT the same, then some of the symmetries of the theory that we actually see in nature would be destroyed by certain "one loop Feynman graphs" that connect three gauge bosons (the triangle graphs). But, with the same number of quarks and leptons, the gauge anomalies of the standard model cancel, and all is right with the current theory of the universe. In fact, gauge anomaly cancellation is nearly a requirement for any model to be taken seriously, and is one of the first things people ask about when someone presents a new model.

    9. Re:six for six by krlynch · · Score: 2

      Part of this may be due to inefficiency in our detectors, errors in our theories of stellar behaviour or errors in our theories of fundamental particles.

      The problem is almost certainly (i.e. hundreds of physicists have bet their careers on it) in our theory of fundamental particles. The discrepancy is absolutely not due to detector inefficiency (the same types of experiments obtain the expected neutrino flux from nearby experiments); the detection efficiency for neutrinos is very low, but if you build a big enough detector, it doesn't kill you. Furthermore, many different experiments using very different techniques obtain results that (roughly) agree on the disagreement. And while there are problems with the stellar models, the same calculation that tells you how many neutrinos come out also tell you how many photons come out and what the surface temperature of the sun should be, and the photon flux and temperature measurements are dead on. Further, the stellar models make predictions about things like "sun-quakes" (the spectrum of solar acoustic surface waves) that are, I believe, also dead on. So, while there is room for improvement in both the experiments and the stellar models, they are not reallly suspect in the solar neutrino problem.

      Further evidence that it is the fundamental particle physics that is wrong is that there is a measurable azimuthally dependent flux (angle above versus below the horizon) of atmospherically produced muon neutrinos; the Standard Model predicts no such behavior.

      In fact, the best (educated) guess at this point is that neutrinos are able to "oscillate" between the different types, and that the neutrinos from the sun change from electron type to some other type during the time it takes to get from the sun to the earth. Thus, when they get here, some of them are no longer in a form that can be detected by the experiments to date.

      Now, I don't think that AMANDA can tell us anything about the solar neutrinos (it looks at very high energy muon type neutrinos, not the low energy electron type), but there are experiments such as SNO in Canada that should be able to access the low energy neutrinos and give us some more information about the solar neutrino problem.

    10. Re:six for six by caffeinated_bunsen · · Score: 1
      Quite true. I didn't intend to suggest teaching particle physics in high school (though it might be fun to try). I was saying that the earlier poster succeeded in explaining a lot of stuff very quickly and accurately, and that such ability is needed in many high schools.

      As for my science classes, the first ones just repeated the same material over and over, adding a tiny bit more detail each year. Once I got to a class specifically focused on physics, it was just another incremental increase in the amount of detail and homework. The really sad part is that almost no mathematical background was expected on the part of the students. Screw calculus, that class was taught without the benefit of anything past first year algebra. The result was a bunch of students trying to remember dozens of formulas, not realizing that most of them were just permutations or combinations of others. I remember spending significantly more time helping my classmates than doing work. The rest of my time in that class was spend reading books about much more interesting physics and/or designing simple nuclear weapons. Now that I'm in 400-level physics courses, I sometimes long for the days before integrals. Then I remember how much high school sucked, and go back to the problem.

      --

      Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
  4. Detectors by drodver · · Score: 1

    I believe the detectors were made in Stoughton, Wisconsin at the Physical Science Labratory of the University of Wisconsin. I used to see them being built while I worked at the facility next door (the Synchrotron Radiation Center)

    1. Re:Detectors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3
      No, Winconsin's PSL had nothing to do with these detectors. In fact, unlike the horribly complicated huge machinery used in 'high-energy particle physics' labs (aka Fermilab, SLAC, CERN, DESY, ...) detecting neutrinos doesn't require complicated machinery.

      Just have a look at this image from the construction of the Superkamiokande Neutrino Detector. The photomultiplier tubes ("mushrooms") used there are very much similar to those used for the AMANDA detector. You can see two of the AMANDA sensors here, together with the glass pressure globes they're put in before deployment.

      I know this - have been working for the AMANDA group once, when we were calibrating the first PMT's for AMANDA back in 1995. It's done at Desy Zeuthen near Berlin. And we were using Linux boxes in the lab for data aquisition purposes ;-)

      The nifty thing about AMANDA aren't the PMT tubes but the pressure globes they are put in (1500m of solid ice do exert some force ...). I've got one of the predecessors (used for the BAIKAL experiment) at home, it's cool telling people at a party that the salad bowl has once been at 1500m depth in Lake Baikal.

      By the way, did someone notice that the AMANDA logo is a Penguin ?

  5. Re:Neutrinos?! by roguerez · · Score: 1
    Sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about.

    The fact that the neutrino's themselves are undetectable doesn't matter. Have you ever heard of theoretical physics? The (indirect, by detecting the behaviour of the resulting part after a collision) detection just confirms what was already suspected. Please do not make bold statements like this without being actually informed about the subject.

    BTW, a nice little fact about neutrino's, just to imagine how small they are. Statistically, you need about a light year of lead to stop one.

  6. Neutrinos are detected all the time. by kelddath · · Score: 1

    Neutrinos are detected all the time in various huge baths of water and cleraning fluid located in various places around the world (deep underground). Apart from the Sun, we've also detected Neutrinos from Supernova 1987A. See this link for some brief details (disclaimer: I'm the author). Best Regards, Dave

    1. Re:Neutrinos are detected all the time. by roguerez · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I was surprised to see that this story brought it as if it was the first detection. I knew about the baths, like in old volcano's with photographic sensitive material to the sides, etc.

  7. Why neutrino telescopes matter by sita · · Score: 5

    Neutrinos do of course interact with matter but just through the weak interaction. The weak interaction is just that, weak. That means the probability that a neutrino will interact is low, and that you need a lot of them and cover a lot of volume to see anything. That's why Amanda (and Antares and other neutrino experiments) have to be huge.

    Now, this low interaction probability is also good. Ordinary telescopes detect electromagnetic radiation (light, radio waves etc), however photons do scatter of the interstellar medium and even off the background radiation (for high enough energies of the radiation). This means that for long distances the vision of such telescopes is blurred. Neutrinos on the other hand don't scatter (with any significant probability) on the interstellar medium etc so it makes for "sharper images" of the universe if you can build a telescope that can see neutrinos.

    What you can study is sources that emit neutrinos (of course). Points of interest could be e.g. active galactic nuclei. Also, it has been hypothethized that supersymmetric particles could account for a significant portion of dark matter. The lightest susy particle (the neutralino) has to be stable and would accumulate in the center of heavy objects (such as the Earth or the Sun) because of gravity. There the concentration would be high enough that they could annihilate with their antiparticles, and produce neutrinos.

    This entirely off the top of my head. I used to share office with Amanda people a couple of years back.

    Hats off for Amanda. It's just a lovely piece of engineering (and interesting science)!

    1. Re:Why neutrino telescopes matter by swingkid · · Score: 1

      Correct me if I'm wrong (and i probably am), but don't particle-antiparticle collisions produce gamma rays, not neutrinos?

  8. FYI by deran9ed · · Score: 1

    I was being sarcastic hence the link to QNX's Neutrino ;\

    --
    360 degrees of Karma
  9. AMANDA Home Page by martyb · · Score: 4

    For those who may be interested in some additional technical details, please check out the AMANDA home page at: http://amanda.berkeley.edu/amanda/amanda.html.

    It provides info on the history of the project (AMANDA-A, -B, and -II) as well as lots of links to many other resources and references.

  10. Re:Neutrinos - AMANDA is more than "detection" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    You're perfectly right that detecting neutrinos has been done for decades.

    The new thing about AMANDA is that it's direction-sensitive. That means instead of "oops - there's been one of the ghost particles" AMANDA will find out about "oops - one of the ghost particles came from ...". No other experiment has been able to get this information so far.

    Think of the difference between a conventional neutrino detector and AMANDA as that between a Geiger Counter and the Chandra Gamma-Ray Observatory. It's an entire new field of science you can do if you're imaging the sky instead of just counting particles.

  11. Or perhaps this one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    "Perhaps stories related to Aids like this one will rouse our interests more."

    Or perhaps this one that you carry as your top story.

    Ha!Ha!

  12. A pedant writes by Doctor+Dark · · Score: 1

    "It's" means "it is".

    --

    The original Doctor Dark.

  13. I wonder how well the reporter understood this? by meckardt · · Score: 3

    Pretty good article, but I got the impression that the person writing it didn't quite understand what was going on. He said this was the first time that neutrinos were detected, and then immediately quoted one of the AMANDA researchers as saying it was the first time a new, higher energy neutrino had been detected.

    Interesting to here that they plan to construct a larger particle detector.

    1. Re:I wonder how well the reporter understood this? by esonik · · Score: 1

      He said this was the first time that neutrinos were detected

      No. He said neutrinos were detected the for first time with the AMANDA detector. Or in other words, the AMANDA detector hasn't detected any neutrinos until recently.

  14. Yet another fine example of science reporting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    1) they've been directly detecting neutrinos since the late 1960's

    2) they've had neutrino observatories since the mid-70's

    3) there are currently at least four full-time neutrino/high energy observatories in operation

    Maury

  15. Re:Neutrinos?! - George Bush reaction ! by Teun · · Score: 1
    Funny! but sadly not so far off the point..

    Basic research seems to have a hard time ahead with this US administration.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  16. Neutrinos are... by dynoman7 · · Score: 1

    ...shy and noncombatant, usually hiding underground for most of the lives. Scientists have been trying to link Neutrinos to early man, but have not been able to see one alive for more than 100 years. Said Phil Smeginsmorff of AMANDA-hug-and-kiss, "We like the little buggers, but they are so damn fast!"

    --
    Blarf.
  17. Re:Why bother ? Should have given money education! by Teun · · Score: 1

    Education is what you need so you can decide for yourself if this is valid science or just bullshit.<P>
    I'm ashamed to be in the same species as you!

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  18. Re:Neutrinos?! by Hater's+Leaving,+The · · Score: 2

    You reply is too harsh. Indeed, he seems to be gibbering, but that's because he's read pseudo-scientific or non-scientific material which has turned things into black and white.

    Neutrinos rarely interact with normal matter, and that makes them very hard to detect. However, if you're prepared to throw a whole array of sensors around a huge vat of water (not just water) in a location where _other_ nuclear interactions are minimal (e.g. away from the surface of the earth), and you're prepared to wait for enough time, you will occasionally see what are predicted to be the results of neutrino interactions. You don't actually detect the neutrinos, but they have a 'fingerprint' that is easy to recognise, and no other interaction causes that fingerprint.

    Don't flame - inform instead.

    THL
    --

    --
    Keeping /. cynic density high since the fscking Kwhores/trolls arrived.
  19. Re:Neutrinos - AMANDA is more than "detection" by Monopolist · · Score: 2

    This isn't completely true. Earlier radio-chemical experiments like Homestake and SAGE were of the "Oops, there one was" variety. More modern detectors, like SuperK do detect the neutrino direction by detecting the charged particle (like an electron or muon) following a neutrino interaction in the detector -- the higher the neutrino energy the better the pointing. SuperK relied on their ability to track neutrinos when they published their results in support of neutrinos having mass a couple years ago. IMHO, one of the really cool things about AMANDA is that they are deep in ice and not a big tank of water. It was "built" by dropping long strings of detectors into melted columns in the ice. With neutrino detectors bigger is better; a detector like AMANDA could be improved by dropping more detectors into the ice. To improve on a detector like SuperK you need to dig a bigger hole underground and make a bigger tank of water -- something which may be a more difficult engineering problem.

  20. It sure is a versatile tool! by cmilkosky · · Score: 1
    Ah, the many uses for AMANDA! And I thought it was just a great backup tool.

    Chris

  21. Article seems more precise than our criticism by IanWestray · · Score: 2
    C'mon, popular science reporting is frightening, but are we so scared we can't read the thing carefully before we bash it?

    This article clearly states these were the first neutrinos seen by AMANDA:

    THE FIRST SIGHTING of the high-energy particles called neutrinos with the AMANDA Telescope...

    In the next paragraph it correctly characterizes the novelty as having to do with the level of energy in the neutrinos observed:

    "We have a unique probe with a sensitivity well beyond other experiments, and the neutrinos we've seen are of a higher energy than has been seen before," Francis Halzen, a physicist at the University of Wisconsin, said in a statement.

    It skimmed the surface, granted, but the article doesn't make the errors we're accusing it of. What gives?

    You can't expect much better of MSNBC; after all, they have all the science headlines under "Technology," their industry-conquering "boy we sure are innovative" section.

    1. Re:Article seems more precise than our criticism by vkt-tje · · Score: 1

      If an instrument is more sensitive, doesn't that mean that it can better detect things with LOWER energy?

      It is harder to see a dim light than a bright light. You need a better, more sensitive detector (Hubble) to see a _dim_ light than to see a bright light (naked eye).

      What am I missing? Maybe the high energy ones pass to fast to have the TIME to detect them? Then the dector is not more _sensitive_, but only _faster_.

      I guess the bottom line is they can detect _more_ particles.

      --

      120 chars is not enough!
    2. Re:Article seems more precise than our criticism by n7lyg · · Score: 1
      Neutrinos have very little mass (if at all), therefore, they are hard to detect. Low energy neutrinos are easier to detect, since they are slower and easier to stop. High energy particles interact less with the matter they pass through, therefore they are harder to detect.

      Do you get it now?

  22. Widely used acronym by ni488 · · Score: 1

    Gee, this whole time I thought that AMANDA stood for Advanced Maryland Automatic Network Disk Archiver. While the one in antarctica seems a bit cooler(pun intended), I bet we all find the one from maryland a bit more useful.

  23. Crap by Hard_Code · · Score: 2

    Well that's it, party's over. No more constructing secret underground bunkers of round-the-clock keg parties with swimsuit models, all under the guise of "government research". Thanks *alot* guys.

    --

    It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
  24. More practical stuff by ttys00 · · Score: 1

    The hollow space in the ground is three times the volume of the Eiffel tower. How did that get dug out, and where did they put the extra snow? I've never seen snow (I live in Western Australia), but if its light and fluffy like it appears to be, how does one string a few hundred medium sized balls in a cavern dug out of snow? It's just that if they intend to build a bigger one... will the cavern itself be stable?

    1. Re:More practical stuff by donutz · · Score: 1
      There's all kinds of snow, just ask the eskimos with their hundreds of words to describe different kinds of snow.

      As for the snow there, it's probably more icy, from being compressed by the weight of all the snow above.

      . . .

    2. Re:More practical stuff by lowder · · Score: 3

      They don't dig out the entire volume; the photodetectors are placed on cables and lowered into narrow holes about 60 cm wide and 2 km deep. The holes are melted using high pressure hot water. After the photodetectors are lowered in, the water freezes back into ice. So most of the detector volume is actually pristine ice. At the large depths where photodetectors are deployed, the pressure "squeezes out" bubbles and cavities, and the ice is very pure, so light can travel long distances and few photodetectors are required to cover a large volume...

      (I am a former member of the AMANDA collaboration, BTW...)

  25. Re:AMANDA backups by bobv-pillars-net · · Score: 1

    Glad I wasn't the only one who did a double-take on the name.

    --
    The Web is like Usenet, but
    the elephants are untrained.
  26. Re:Neutrinos?! by esonik · · Score: 1

    I would've thought there would be nothing but solid chunks of ice by the South Pole.

    No, There is land below the ice at the SP. You are thinking of the North Pole, which doesn't have land below the ice.

    There is an inaccurate statement in the article that has mislead you:

    Neutrinos travel through Earth all the time without being detected.

    This should read: Most Neutrinos travel through Earth all the time without being detected.

    There is a nice introduction into the discovery of the neutrino at
    http://wwwlapp.in2p3.fr/neutrinos/aneut.html

  27. Horta Eggs by Snar+Bloot · · Score: 1
    NSF has proposed building a new neutrino detector and National Underground Physics Laboratory in the soon to be closed Homestake gold mine at the 7400' level. In addition, other experiments not related to horta-research could be performed.

    newspaper description of project

  28. Re:What the heck do they do?! by Explo · · Score: 2

    Why would detecting nutrinos matter at all? The article said something about knowing the path that the nutrino came from...uhm so what? It is most likely so far out in space we have no idea where it originated. And knowing where it came from matters how? Didn't they say things like stars give them off? Pick a star, there you go, theres an origin for nutrinos. Can we detect how old they are, if they contain life or anything like that, from what I understand - no. Then why are we spending all this money to look at things that ar invisible (and yet that makes sense) instead of putting it in something worthwhile?

    Oh well. If something does not have immediately apparent practical use, it's not worth anything to study? I guess we'd still be in the middle of dark ages if this guideline would have been strictly adhered to. Everything does NOT have immediately apparent practical applications.

    --
    Everyone who makes generalizations should be shot.
  29. Careful by SmokeSerpent · · Score: 1

    They need to be careful about poking holes all around the antarctic, as the ill-fated Miskatonic University expedition discovered.

    --
    All kings is mostly rapscallions. -Mark Twain, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
  30. Re:Neutrinos?! by james_shoemaker · · Score: 1


    >Neutrinos travel through Earth all the time without being detected.

    >This should read: Most Neutrinos travel through Earth all the time without being detected.

    To be truly pedantic MOST Neutrinos don't travel through the earth at all, the earth being so small in relation to the size of the universe.

  31. Whoa! by Macaw2000 · · Score: 1

    This is sounding like Scientology.

  32. Re:Neutrinos by GruffDavies · · Score: 1

    How the hell can you mod this down as off-topic?! It's perfectly on-topic.