William Gibson On Japan

An Anonymous Coward writes: "There's an interesting rant by William Gibson on his fascination with American futurist conception of Japanese culture over at The Observer. Also of note is one readers take on it." This is a little odd, not usual slashdot fare. But I thought it was interesting reading, so maybe you will too.

Comments

Yes and No . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Major flaw in Gibson's reasoning: Japan actually seems markedly BEHIND Europe and the US in adopting the PC as a staple in every household, in embracing the Internet as a place for business, etc. How much commercial software development comes out of Japan? Not that there's not great programming talent there, as many a well-coded emulator can testify to, but it seems to me a major element of Gibson's writing relates to computers and the internet, not electronic dating gadgets and videogame consoles. There's a prioritzing going on that seems backwards in espousing that mobile phones and tamagotchi count for more . . .

Re:Yes and No . . .

[WilsonSD]

There's a prioritzing going on that seems backwards in espousing that mobile phones and tamagotchi count for more . . .

Yup, you completely missed the point. PCs and wired connections are the internet today. Things like the Docomo i-Mode phones point to what the future of the internet will look like. A store about a bunch of pale /. geeks playing with their DSL lines sounds boring (altough that is part of today's internet). A bizaar sub-culture of 11-year-old Japanese girls who are jacked into the net 24 hours a day, and communicate through strange codes they construct with a cell-phone 10-key -- now that sounds like sci-fi!

-Steve

A Londoner just back from Japan

[Paul Crowley]

I've barely been back in Britain for two days after visiting Tokyo and Yokohama, and I find this - cool! Though I now live in Edinburgh, I was born and brought up in London and visit often so the comparison is interesting.

The "Mobile Girls". In this, I don't actually think Japan is any different from the UK, or Germany or Sweden. Here in Europe practically everyone between 11 and 40 has a mobile phone (and lots of other people too), and the girls can text like lightening here too. My little sisters have a mobile and they can text faster than I can. The amazing thing about the Japanese girls is that they can do it in Kanji! A friend I met there demonstrated: you enter what you want to say in a phonemic form, then the 'phone offers you several ways to say the same thing in Kanji script. That, combined with the larger screens of the iMode phones, means it's convenient to receive much longer messages.

Oh, and DoCoMo phones can receive email as conveniently as a text message. I wish I had that.

Technology adoption. In Tokyo, I got the net from an Ethernet cable in my hotel room. Damn fast too. I wish I'd had the same in Yokohama.

Conformism. I don't think it's as bad as people say. Certainly the streets of Tokyo don't look like the humourless regiments people seem to imagine, just people holding hands, laughing and enjoying themselves at the weekend in the glorious weather under the cherry blossom. I went to a Tokyo goth club and it was a fabulous experience - you can see pictures at

www.cluefactory.org.uk/paul/photos/tokyo/eve/

- no conformism there!

I've never been that far away before - Tokyo was a real eye-opener, and while there were many unusual things (Pocari Sweat is called that because it's an isotonic sports drink), the Japanese are not the aliens people seem to think. And don't worry about the politeness rules too much, they're used to gaijin getting it wrong, just don't blow your nose in public...
--

Re:A Londoner just back from Japan

[cjs]

The amazing thing about the Japanese girls is that they can do it in Kanji! A friend I met there demonstrated: you enter what you want to say in a phonemic form, then the 'phone offers you several ways to say the same thing in Kanji script. That, combined with the larger screens of the iMode phones, means it's convenient to receive much longer messages.

It's not amazing that they can do it in kanji, because it's easier! On phones you do the input directly in hiragana, rather than in romaji as you (usually) do on a computer. So you're probably averaging 3-4 button presses per syllable, rather than the 2-3 presses per letter you need in English. Once you've got the hiragana there, you can just scroll through a list of the matching kanji (produced via dictionary lookup--yes, all Japanese phones have a Japanese dictionary inside them).

Combine this with the fact that in Japanese you can (and usually do) leave out a lot of "known" information, and you end up saving a lot of button-presses when writing in Japanese rather than English. I can probably enter "kaato desu. doko ni desuka." (about 13 hiragana "characters", including the two periods; no spaces are used in Japanese) in about two thirds the time I can enter "It's Curt. Where are you?" (25 characters). And if they have my number in their address book (so they see my name), that whole message might be shortened to "dokoni" (3 hiragana; 13 button-presses due to particularly bad luck with there being two 'o'-row hiragana in it, at 5 presses each).

And yes, the larger displays (mine displays 16 chars/8 kanji by 6 lines of the e-mail text) combined with the much higher per-character information density of Japanese makes e-mail much more comfortable to read on a phone.

Now if only there were i-mode slashdot....

Re:A Londoner just back from Japan

[macshit]

>> Conformism. I don't think it's as bad as people say. Certainly the streets of Tokyo don't look like the humourless regiments people seem to imagine, just people holding hands, laughing and enjoying themselves at the weekend in the glorious weather under the cherry blossom. I went to a Tokyo goth club and it was a fabulous experience <<

A lot of japanese have this misconception too: they say `oh look, lots of people dress very strangely; japan has embraced individuality!'

But in fact, all that's happened is number of models to conform to has increased somewhat; the urge is still there (though probably less so than in the past).

Re:Interesting, but a Rant it is.

[Bryan Ischo]

I think you misunderstood the post to which you are replying.

The "velvet gloved fist of friendship" would refer to someone who is acting aggressively but covering it up with a thin veil of friendship.

The key words here are "fist" and "velvet-covered". I think that you and the person to whom you are responding are really saying the same thing ...

Re:Neuromancer

[Phil Gregory]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Stephenson has said the two books aren't really related; he just put the YT/Miss. Matheson thing in as an easter egg.

--Phil (Owner of a signed copy of Cryptonomicon. (Hi, Jay))

Re:Symbiotic relationships..

[DAldredge]

Robot Wars is "cute"? Did you miss the flamethrowers, the pit of fire, and the house robots?

London? Paris!!

[mvw]

Gibson should take a closer look on Paris before he praises London.

The French share

• the love for fish (there are great Japanese restaurants in Paris),
• the love for fashion,
• the love for graphical arts (guess who reintroduced anime and manga into Europe)
• the love for fast modern trains

Alas the sense of cleanliness is rather shared with the Swiss (Paris toilets? Yuck!).

Re:lets trot out all the old stereotypes, shall we

[Squeeze Truck]

Actually, I've heard that exact same sentiment expressed hundreds of times in Japan. Most often by Japanese businessmen.

To say that one culture is better than another at some such thing seems to an American to be somehow racist (especially to an Asian-American). But in Japan, thinking up differences between Japanese and Americans is practically a national sport.

The original poster is 100% correct on every point. Japanese businesses spend very little time and resources developing "new" things. They believe all our trade publications, that gush about how X technology is going to change the world, to be gospel truth. Every new development in the US sends them into a panic, because what they fear more than anything else is to be left in the US's technological dust.
Japanese-style R&D instead focuses on these new American developments, and how Japanese businesses can implement them quickly so as to avoid getting "cut out of the loop" as it were.
Because of this, newer technologies like XML, Java, Linux, PHP, and the ubiquitous Keitai Denwa (the portable data phones Gibson speaks of) are all very mainstream here.
I tell my Japanese coworkers that Java and Linux aren't terribly popular in the US, and they don't believe me.

(With regard to my "farm", I have a 4-year degree in Japanese, I have been married to a Japanese national for 6 years, I work in a Japanese software company (that makes games written in PHP for said phones), and I'm posting from the city of Hakata.)

Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is

[Squeeze Truck]

But this is also the country in which there are no full access ATMs,

...but it's safe to carry loads of cash.

no Birth control (until last year)

But abortions were cheap and plentiful...

and no law against denying somone a promotion because they are a woman... (well, also not until last year)... The contradiction of the techno idolatry and the hedgemonc morality of the society amazes me.

Also no law against denying employment/promotion to white guys like me. Actually, there is almost no form of institutionalized artificial equality. Even so, I like the fact that the government doesn't regulate every aspect of corporate life here. It just means you have to try harder is all.

You forgot to mention that in Japan there are no surveillance cameras, no drug tests, and no background checks. Civil servants and customer service representatives are polite, and most of all competent. Even the police. That's a future I could go for.

And as for the "pressure to conform"... Who applies that pressure? The government? The army? Or is it completely voluntary?
I understand how it could be difficult for an American to understand why anyone would ever conform, believe in a religion, obey the law, or respect other people unless they were somehow forced or coerced to, but that is because America's social contract has ruptured and everyone mistrusts everything and everyone else. Not because the Japanese are somehow gullible mindless automatons.
There is no more pressure to conform here than anywhere else. All that's different it that the Japanese are not nearly as cynical about each other and their social institutions. Everyone benefits from a society that runs smoothly and where everyone does what is expected of them.

Re:Anglo-Japanese Parallels

[Pseudonymus Bosch]

England- Displaced native population. (The Celts)

I'd say that the Celts were Anglicized, not displaced.

My impression:

Japan: Fond of BDSM.
England: Fond of BDSM.

Japan: They thought they should rule Asia.
England: They thought they should rule Asia.
__

Re:Uh,are you saying Italians are proud of Mussoli

[Pseudonymus Bosch]

Weren't they both on the wrong side?

Actually, Italians were on both sides. There were the Fascists and there were the partisans (and the Mafia).
__

Blowing your nose

[Pseudonymus Bosch]

they're used to gaijin getting it wrong, just don't blow your nose in public...

Er... How to do it then? (I feel like a barbarian).
__

Re:Neuromancer

[Wiktor Kochanowski]

By the way, anyone knows what's happening with the next Stephenson's novel, Quicksilver? It's been promised but I couldn't find any new info about it lately (and I have even searched Usenet archives)

Re:Symbiotic relationships..

[GypC]

AI seems a little reckless when your talking about ripsaw-wielding, flame-throwing robots, many of which can move a lot faster than you can run...

I'm sure injuries would be rare, considering how smart the builders are. But geeks also tend to be absent minded, and mistakes could be lethal.

"Hey is this thing on?" BZZZZZ CHOP-CHOP-CHOP FWOOOOSH (sizzle-sizzle) "Medic!"

Re:But what do the Japanese think of Americans?

[GypC]

all Americans shower every day

You've never been to a Grateful Dead show have you? Hell, I've been know to skip a day now and then (but it's always at least 5 times a week).

I hear they used to have to practically force James Dean into the shower. :)

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[t]

Exactly how are automobiles high tech? Because it has cruise control? Because its a large mass of metal that has the tendency to flip over when a tire blows? I've always envisioned the future as a society without cars. Many people spend hours in traffic every day, unable to do anything else since they're driving. That's hardly advanced. I'd much rather get in a train, read a book, wax poetic, or hell post on /. about how cars suck.

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[sl70]

On the whole, you're probably right. But when was the last time you saw heated toilet seats with bidets, dryers, and wireless remote control units in North America? =)

Ah, the toilet argument again. People who bring up the issue of high-tech toilets in Japan usually fail to mention the fact that nearly 1/3 of the households in Japan don't even have flush toilets -- they have otoshi benjo, a kind of inside latrine in which wastes go through a hole in the floor into a tank, which is cleaned out periodically by a guy with a ``vacuum car.''

Re:Become Japanese? No Thanks!

[ACK!!]

That is overstated at the least. Listen, the japanese value conformance of the individual to the group's benefit, sure. Americans typically value individuality above the group's welfare. I just made two huge generalizations that are true.
However, there are plenty examples of japanese youths growing out of the shadows of their parents post-war generation that realize that with the current economic problems japan has they will not work for one company and conform to it their whole lives.

Do I want to turn Japanese, no. I like anime and sushi and would like to one day visit Japan on a vacation but I grew in an individaulistic society and that is where I will stay. To be interested in another culture does not necessarily mean that you have to reject your own. I have a problem with that.

Sometimes I see the otaku or the cafe beatnik dark clad eurotrash wannabe bashing america and praising whatever culture they tend to prefer. It is as if to recognize problems in ones own culture you had to reject it in the same breath and then choose another one. The culture I have grown up in is not anywhere near perfect but it is my own to live with or help to change if the need is there. Then I have to laugh because as many people have pointed there are difficulties with every culture and set of ideals.

Becoming Japanese, no. Wanting to look out and see the world through another culture's eyes to understand the people? Yeah, I can do that.

Re:Neuromancer

[MikeFM]

Not to start a flame war but I like Neal Stephenson and even Bruce Sterling much better than Gibson. They have a much less negative view of the future and often are more post-cyberpunk in their writings. I think the Diamond Age mixed with Distraction and touches of Snow Crash and Idoru would overall be a pretty realistic description of our near future. Maybe I just tend to be optimisitc and thus like those books better. :)

Re:Symbiotic relationships..

[MikeFM]

I would not argue that their is any reason for Brits to have the 'big dumb my big brother can beat up your big brother' behavior of us Americans. Am just saying we do have that behavior both for better and worst. Hell Red Dwarf and Junk Yard Wars are two of my favorite shows. Both of which I believe are British. :)

Re:Symbiotic relationships..

[MikeFM]

I've watched it quite often and it is to my mind very 'cute'. The robots look much more amatuer in general and more like tv images of robots than down and dirty fighting machine like you see in the American versions. Not that all of them are that way, just a great many more. The show in general just has an amussing feel to it. If it helps any I think the American version is for pansies. They should keep the crowd back so they could let loose with some really awesome weapons.

Re:lets trot out all the old stereotypes, shall we

[MikeFM]

Not at all. The Japanese do invent things but seldom are their inventions big and crazy in the American way. Besides since we are talking about sterotypes used by Gibson in his books it is appropiate to depict things in the same way. I'd not honestly suggest that nobody in Japan invents things or that nobody in America refines things. It's just a description of what each culture seems to do best. I've yet to see any culture as good at refining technology as Japan or one as good at thinking up big stupid shit as America. Of course America has raw numbers on it's side.. it's a freakin big place.. can't honestly expect a country the size of one of our states to out produce our entire country. I do think a lot of European countries and Japan are better about early adoption of technology. They don't usually invent it first but they are the first to actually put it to good use. In America good ideas are like everything else -- we throw it away and keep using up natural resources faster than is really wise. If it can't make someone money without upsetting the power balance then we don't use it. :P

Re:Symbiotic relationships..

[MikeFM]

I don't really consider them to be robots but I'm sure they'd quickly get AI built-in if the damn freakin network tv would let us. Because of stupid saftey rules and such AI is off limit. I really want to see that changed but for now those suits have all the robots braindead.

Some of it is that AI would raise the bar needed to enter but they COULD have sepperate competition classes..

Another thing about America is that Suits have way to much power. We should challenge those lawyers with the spinning wheel of death and a good flamethrower and see what happens. Something of the nature of celebrity death matches but pitting real lawyers against real robots? :)

Re:Neuromancer

[MikeFM]

Heavy Weather and Islands in the Net are pretty good Sterling works but honestly his all out best ever is Distraction. The first reading can be hard to grasp fully but it's in depth look at American culture and genetic/neural engineering is very advanced. The entire trust network of nomad tribes that live off waste products is fantastic (why we don't do it I'm not quite sure) and connecting it to the dignified workings of science is just the perfect touch.

Stephenson is much more optimistic in general and his books are heavily researched. They read like class lecture notes with wonderful stories woven in. Crytonomical is almost a textbook. It even has working programs in it! Snow Crash I think is situated a little ahead of The Diamond Age on the time line but you can easily see how one story leads to the other. Stephenson books can often be a lot to handle if you aren't very familiar with the topics being discussed. You literally get a dose of facts and theories that are used as the backdrop for the stories and you have to digest all that before the story can make sense. It's sort of like Star Wars.. every time you watch(read) it again you uncover new layers.

Gibson is very dark. His books have a sort of Blade Runner quality to them and seem very chaotic and afraid of technology. Given the fact that he admits not to be a 'geek' I think it unsurprising that he has something of a fear of technology which he works into his stories. For the masses Gibson probably makes more sense than Sterling or Stephenson as I think the average person probably fears technology on some level. Gibson books are good stories but they seem much more shallow and less educational.

Re:Symbiotic relationships..

[MikeFM]

I tried to get some locals interested in a cable access battle bot show by people who go to school here etc. Wanted it to have no rules as long as both competitiors stayed in the ring until one is dead. Nobody seemed to feel like making the effort. *shrugs* Dunno.. I thought it'd be a fun project.

Re:Neuromancer

[MikeFM]

That's what I meant. Ahead == before. I always assumed Miss Matheson was YT. The stories aren't really sequels or anything but you can see how the technology and cultures continue along the same lines to show the progression.

Symbiotic relationships..

[MikeFM]

I think the Japanese and American cultures are locked in a twisted symbiotic relationship. The Japanese are masters of perfecting technology and Americans are masters of thinking of insane new things that break the mode. Other cultures tend to be someplace in the middle.

An exmaple.. Look at out robots.. America has Battle Bots.. an over pumped wrestling federation type of robot fighting game with big bad to the point robots.. the British have Robot Wars (I think that is the name) which is a lot like Battle Bots but the robots tend to be more goofy and cute and look less like something designed to beat your neighbor up. Their show in general lacks the over the top behavior of the American counterpart. The Japanese take robots and slap them into cute little bodies and give them some basic AI abilities and make a forture off it all. :)

Re:Symbiotic relationships..

[starman97]

Unlimited class..
It's the only way to go, 1500lb and up.
Flamethrowers, Napalm, phosphorus, bring it on.

The only thing we'd draw the line on is artellery, no commercial ammo or weapons, but stuff like home-made harpoons would be cool.

No meat in the arena and no stands, this is tele-presence only, multiple big-screen views on simulcast to the home cites of the contestants.

It could work...

Re:Symbiotic relationships..

[DavidpFitz]

Their show in general lacks the over the top behavior of the American counterpart

I think most Brits, and indeed most Europeans are very glad of this. People in Europe don't tend to like the "Yee-hah" attitude many US programs show, especially with those really annoying WWF style "scream in your face" style commentators! Dave.

Re:Symbiotic relationships..

[LMCBoy]

This is OT, but can you really consider the machines in BattleBots to be robots? I mean, they aren't autonomous, they're just remote control cars with whirling blades and chainsaws welded onto them. Since you say the machines on Robot Wars have simple AI, doesn that mean they are autonomous during the battle? I've often thought BattleBots would be much more interesting if the machines were programmed and autonomous (and if they got rid of the "wrestlemania" announcers). However, I understand that the difficulty of AI programming would shrink the pool of contestants to near zero. oh well.

Re:Symbiotic relationships..

[alen]

I spent time in Europe while in the Army and the culture differences compared to American are amazing. In the US we are always wary of authority. Everytime we think the police went to far we call for investigations. In Europe police normally carry automatic weapons with much more flexible rules of engagement. On the other hand Americans are very protective of property and it's normal to kill someone breaking into your house. In Europe human life is considered more precious than property. Same thing with the militaries. The violent US society is in contrast to the military. When US forces are deployed anywhere they go out of their way to use as little force as possible in a peacekeeping mission. European militaries use force first and ask questions later.

Re:Inspiration from home

[cjs]

Um...."no." I used to live in Vancouver, and I now live in Tokyo. Vancouver is definitely not an inspiring place, and, aside from a lot of sushi restaurants and a Japanese convenience store on Robson St., there's little Japanese culture in Vancouver. (Nothing at all in Vancouver is even remotely comparable to St. Mark's between second and third avenues in New York, for example.)

Also, the Asians in Vancouver are predominantly Chinese. Chinese culture is closer to American or Canadian or almost any other Western culture than it is to Japanese culture. (I lived in China for a year, too.) The Japanese are really mindblowingly different, in terms of their culture. And I expect that they will always remain that way; even as they import Western culture wholesale, they change it and make it their own. Being here is like viewing Western culture through a fun-house mirror. I recognise things, but I don't.

Re:What the...??

[Apache]

Despite that, what he said applies to many americans too. I know this from personal experience... The value of my anime collection is verry close to the value of my car.

Contradiction explanation attempted

[alienmole]

The contradiction of the techno idolatry and the hedgemonc morality of the society amazes me.

Those two things are inextricably linked: techno idolatry ("toys") are a distraction, a way for people to soothe themselves, in the same way that a pacifier/dummy soothes a baby, by changing the focus of its attention. The more constrained a society is - whether it's Japan or the puritan-rooted U.S. - the more people turn to distractions, since their culture can't provide sufficient nurture for their spirits.

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[Rainy]

Uh.. it's not about willingness, it's about actual adoption. Everybody got willingness. Similarly you could say that Nigeria has even more willingness to adopt hi tech stuff than us and japan combined, but it's just too expensive for them. Heh.

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[Rainy]

If most people don't need universal all purpose turning machines, why are they being made and sold quite successfully? IOW, if you want to convince me that PCs will be no more, you have to show why they are here now and what will change that will (supposedly) make them unnecessary. There are webtvs, there are game consoles and either cost much less then a PC, so why the hell do people buy PCs if they don't need them? Riddle me that.

Inspiration from home

[SheldonYoung]

I wonder if Gibson is deriving some of his inspiration not from Japan, but from where he lives in Vancouver. Vancouver a very large and successfull oriental population. Wander around the malls and you see Mobile Girls, at home here as if they were in Japan.

Re:Inspiration from home

[iserlohn]

Actually most of the asian population here is from Hong Kong.

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[MrYotsuya]

There isn't such a pressing need for a web-connected PC there since their local phone calls aren't free. Note the reference to the girl using text messaging on her cell phone rather than calling people.

One reader?

[Darkforge]

Of course Three-Rings is a slash based site with more than just a reference to Gibson's article. So, more they post there, the less obvious it will be as to which reader Michael is referring.

In fact, Michael means the article posted by analytic at 4/4/01 7:47:21 PM entitled "William Gibson and the London-Tokyo connection".

To avoid /.ing this site, I've included the meat of analytic's response below:

Like Gibson, I always did feel that one of the most important sentiments that fuels British breakbeat is the sort of broadly orientalist subtext of British music in the twentieth century; not orientalist in the literal sense that it is directed specifically towards Asian culture, but rather in the sense that the British seem to have a hightened sensitivity towards and appreciation for the idea of the foreign. This foreign-ness, I think, ultimately reveals itself to the British as something new, valuable, and thus worthy of appropriation.

This disposition can be seen in Drum and Bass, which for so long aligned itself with American musical forms like jazz and hiphop, as well as with dub. Most recently, this tendency has become evident in UK Garage, which relies so heavily on the influence of US hiphop,R+B and Jamaican dancehall reggae. Strangely, I think, the xenophiliac impulse that drives so much British music to borrow from and expand upon American, West Indian, and Asian musics, in many cases manifests itself in American breakbeat audiences as a kind of anglophilia, an appreciation for the non-american aspects of breakbeat music.

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[s390]

This is not only not true, but also _predominantly_ false. Intel fabs its own wafers, so do AMD and others. TSM fabs wafers for its subsidiaries and others. And IBM fabs wafers for Motorala, AMD, Transmeta, etc. as well as for its own use. Most wafer fab capacity is _not_ in Japan. Malaysia alone probably has more (Intel, AMD, etc.).

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[s390]

And I disagree with you. Most big fabs grow their own silicon ingots, AFAIK. That's the easy part. Do you have any statistics on worldwide Si-ingot production?

Anglo-Japanese Parallels

[Citizen_Kang]

Okay, maybe I just think too much, but here's an observation:

Japan- Had an island-wide feudal system of samurai.
England- Had an island-wide feudal system of knights.

Japan- Figurehead monarch, parliamentary gov't.
England- Figurehead monarch, parliamentary gov't.

Japan- Fondness for highly-structured tea ceremonies.
England- Fondness for highly-structured tea ceremonies.

Japan- Historically adversarily continental neighbors, from which the much of their culture is drawn.
England- Ditto.

Japan- Displaced native population. (The Ainu)
England- Displaced native population. (The Celts)

Japan- Passion for high-maintenance gardens.
England- Yup.

Japan- Militaristic (invasions of Korea and China come to mind).
England- Militaristic (invasions of France come to mind).

I know there were a few more, but I can't remember them at the moment.

Yes, perhaps I'm imposing similitudes where none exist, but what can ya do?

Re:Anglo-Japanese Parallels

[Master of Kode Fu]

Japan - Questionable dental hygiene. England - Questionable dental hygiene.

Japan - "Cool girls": Snotty, preppy uniformed schoolgirls. England - "Sloan Rangers": Snotty, preppy uniformed schoolgirls.

Japan: All your base are belong to us
England: Right about now the funk soul brother / check it out now, the funk soul brother

Japan - Food that seems strange at first, but is actually delicious once you try it. England - Uh...

Re:Anglo-Japanese Parallels

[Imperial Tacohead]

And how many centuries has it been since they've invaded France? Seven? I think you're thinking of Germany.

Re:Anglo-Japanese Parallels

[puz]

The company that dug the long hole connecting France to England was a Japanese company (I think Kawasaki heavy industry).

Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is

[My_Favorite_Anonymou]

I have a theory, the part of the reason Japanese are so obssess and pay so much attention to the future is that their past is not so holy (Italian, on the other hand, care so much about the past cause let's face it, they have the best past/ancestor)

It's like a person who has done something they are not pound of, and they would more likely to say "the past is past, what do you want me to do, let's move on) Japan, in alot of asian countries' minds, hasn't fully apology, take responsibility to what they did during wwII. Of cause they are more likely to look ahead.

Now I'm not saying this because I'm a cantonese, I really don't care if japan never apologize for what they did and feel guilty for it, and japanese youth know little about the war crime and stuff. I come up with this theory cause I like to use human beghavior to explain a country. (I know how many jews were killed by hitler in wwII, how many of you /.ers know how many chinese were killed in NanJin? See that, that's what i mean. asian, at least chinese like to use different way to resolve the historic problem. Keep making movie as a reminder is not one of them. Like I say, I'm too familier with japanese culture to "have a distaste in my month" when talk about them.)

Ok...

[nphinit]

Mr. Gibson is good at writing a lot of words without saying anything but "I have a fantastic vocabulary" and "I am extremely well-educated."

I think his Wired piece on Singapore ("Disneyland with the Death Penalty") was a lot better than this one. This one has no real meat to it. Either he has no idea what he's talking about, or he does, but is too lazy to share with us.

You're misquoting the lyrics.

[rjh]

The Pet Shop Boys song you're quoting is, if anything, about economic disparity and social classes in England. The line is, "In a West End town, a dead end world / The East End boys and West End girls..."

Also, Shogun, while a great read and written by someone who really loved Japanese culture, was still written by... an Englishman. It's not exactly a reference work on Japanese culture.

Re:Mojo-Dojo

[WillAffleck]

The Japanese learn English fairly early. Americans rarely learn Japanese.

Well, you must live in another country than me then. Because most of the schools in Washington, Oregon, and California seem to have Japanese classes, as do the colleges and university.

And, since my son's taking Japanese and my brother taught German in Japan, I kind of think I might know what I'm talking about, Gaijin.

Re:Mojo-Dojo

[WillAffleck]

The west coast as a LOT more asian influence than the east, and that probably accounts for the different language course offerings.

Most of the population of the US lives West of the Mississippi. About 30 per cent of the entire US lives in California, Oregon, and Washington. So when I say rarely can one find a school that doesn't offer Japanese or another Asian language, I am talking about the parts of the US which are growing. The rest of the areas which are growing are learning Spanish.

Hence, Japanese is a fact of life, and a Japanese language game would have a wider market than you imagine and the humor is more translatable than those from the ossifying east may think.

We (as the Census will tell you) are the future. Ignore us at your own risk.

But what do the Japanese think of Americans?

[GoofyBoy]

Good point. From my friends who've been there I have to agree.

But an interesting opposing point is what do the Japanese think of us?

Everyone rides in huge convertables in the middle of the Nevada desert, like in Fear and Lothing in Las Vegas? Hanging around coffee shops all day long like in the TV show Friends? Living in large lots in suburbia?

I'm sure that they have somesort of counter-point to your views.

Re:But what do the Japanese think of Americans?

[NullAndVoid]

Many people in the UK get their impression of the "real" USA from Jerry Springer, COPS, and similar trash. Can't blame them, really, that's the image we export.

Re:But what do the Japanese think of Americans?

[Alatar]

slovenly? nah...all Americans shower every day, and in general, have high standards of hygeine, even in the lower class. Europeans, however...well, what can you say about a culture in which it is acceptable to shower only twice a week? Pee-yew.

Re:But what do the Japanese think of Americans?

[dasunt]

One only must look to anime for an answer. All facets of life can be found in anime, and by careful watching, we can find many interesting things, such as the fact that Japan seems to be plagued with monsters, or that all girls from outerspace will look human, pretty, be single, and will have a crush on the first male they'll meet. However, I'm getting sidetracked. GoofyBoy asks "But what do the Japanese think of Americans?"

From a careful study of anime, I must conclude that Americans are seen in a few different ways. Primarily, either we are large, loud, unpolite folks who tend to occupy the lower half of the intelligent curve, or we are sleazy criminals with no morals out to make a quick buck. Sometimes the stereotypes mix, as in the not-too-uncommon corperate CPO who is both fat, slow, and sleazy, and some anime have their own unique roles. In Gunsmith Cats we are portrayed as a bunch of gun-loving nuts with sloveny personal habits.

I'd think I'd complain about that last stereotype, but it seems kinda accurate. :)

Not really the height of ALL technology now is it?

[caffeineboy]

This type of diatribe seems to come from people who have been in love with Japan for years, then go there and see exactly what they were looking for without noting anything that would interfere with their schoolgirl crush on the country.

Yes, this is the country in which every girl has to have a portable phone, the newest CD single by a shitty boy band (ok, so that's not different), and the newest fashion trend the moment that they are announced in the magazines...

But this is also the country in which there are no full access ATMs, no Birth control (until last year) and no law against denying somone a promotion because they are a woman... (well, also not until last year)... The contradiction of the techno idolatry and the hedgemonc morality of the society amazes me.

Granted their fad driven economy is full of high tech gadgetry the likes of which would make any japanophilic geek drool, but the shortsightedness of the culture as a whole scares me... Ever seen how much trash is piled in the woods by their mountain expressways? Or stacks of ten year old cars that were crushed for being too old... (A friend of mine had a 1990 Honda CRX crushed because the road tax would have been too much. He had to pay $200 to get them to take it and it had 60K on the odometer). It seems like the technological climate in Japan is due mostly to high pressure advertising, high pressure to conform, and a lack of visible available alternatives.

Different, yes,

But THE future? I hope not.

Become Japanese? No Thanks!

[redelm]

First a disclaimer: I've never even visted Japan, still less lived there.

But from what I've been able to gather, specifically from Karel van Wolferen, it might be a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.

The essence of Japanese society is conformance. There are a great many constraints on individuals such as only being hired straight out of school. If you lose your job, you likely will not get anything anywhere near as good. Corporatism run wild.

Various "hobbies" are left as necessary outlets for individuality. And these become very interesting indeed. This attracts Gibson, but I look to the causes.

William Gibson as Leo Buscaglia

[tilleyrw]

OK, Bill turns "touchy-feely" and wants hugs and understanding with the Japanese. He is fascinated with non-techy things about their culture.

Big whoop. Call me when you have something to say.

Japan's present seems a bit like America's past

[Zoop]

I think Gibson is over-romanticizing what goes on in Japan. Yes, like many Asian cultures, they are very receptive to fads influenced by the "latest thing" and they are something that is very rare in the West nowadays: technophilic.

I suspect, however, that, in their 140-year leap from virtual feudalism to modernity, not all has progressed at the same rate, and the technological effects on society are playing out in ways that have already shaped Western society.

It's only been in the past 30 years that Japan has been a truly affluent society. So the concerns of a society that has grown comfortable with widespread wealth are just beginning--there's a feeling, reinforced by the collapse of the Bubble Economy, that without hard work to maintain it, prosperity could vanish as quickly as it arrived. So the Western concerns with social equality, environmental protection, the extremely marginal dangers of new technology haven't set in yet.

In short, there's still a lot of the 1950's-era Europe and America in Japan. The benefits of technology are still much clearer than their downsides, and a workaholic, traditional culture still lingers. If, in the 50's or even the 20's, America had the same level of technology the Japanese do today there would undoubtedly be Mobil Girls, robot bars, and the like.

But don't forget the downside to this progress: Japan is not a tranquil, natural place for reflection that NPR and yuppie magazines sell to Americans: it is a chaotic place where almost all buildable land has been built upon and parks are sadly rare but extremely welcome escapes from the unrelieved concrete and cacophony of the city. Women have a distinctly second-class place: female CEO's aren't a rarity, they just don't happen. Cutting off land from business development is similarly rare, and the salaryman still comes to work at 7 or 8 and leaves at 10 to drink with the boss until 1 and expects to do this for one company his entire life.

So yes, consumer technology is a few minutes into the future, but Japanese society isn't necessarily "ahead", if such a concept even applies. But Western society would be better off for examining the Japanese to see what we've lost: the confidence that technology can still improve your life and is sometimes worth the cost.

On: one company for life

[sh_mmer]

What you say about the salaryman jibes with what i've read in various american media. However, I had a conversation with my friend in Tokyo last year who's working in his second job since graduating from college. Naturally, this sort of thing is possible for him because he is a computer scientist, and talented. However, he told me that it is also becoming possible for people in other professions to expect to land good second jobs after quitting or being fired from their job at their first company.

Just a data point for you.

Re:Neuromancer

[ktakki]

Snow Crash I think is situated a little ahead of The Diamond Age on the time line but you can easily see how one story leads to the other.

I think it's the other way around: there's a passage in Diamond Age that implies that Nell's teacher at the Victorian school (Miss Matheson) is none other than YT from Snow Crash (see page 320-21 of the Diamond Age paperback).

k.

--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

Re:Not quite up to speed

[Mephistopholies]

Niel Stevenson wrote In The Begenning Was the Command Line NOT Gibson. You can find it here

Re:Not quite up to speed

[Mephistopholies]

heheh ooopppsss you said that sorry.

Not the Future.....please....

[rbrander]

Nah, Japan isn't "The Future". Gimme a Break.

I don't have the Japan-knowledge creds of others saying this, but even the most cursory knowledge of the island argues against it.

Skip that they are a "feudal" culture of loyalty to The Company, with a near-permanent ruling party, etc ... that stuff can change. They've made bigger changes. (Playing catch-up to make them...hardly "clicks down the road".)

No, let's look at deeply-held cultural traits that aren't about to go away. They are genetically and culturally homogenous. Differences from the mainstream are not well-liked. Foreigners are not popular.

By the way, in this, they are NOT like England, which is an often-conquered mish-mash of natives, North Europeans, Norman French, and a Roman gene or twelve. (And the English language reflects it.)

And "The Future" is surely one of increasing diversity and inter-mingling. The plummeting cost of travel and the advantages of trade demand it.

If Japan even joins that future, much less makes it, they'll have to radically change deeply-held attitudes to do so.

Re:Become Japanese? No Thanks!

[jacoplane]

Exactly. In Japan, there is a saying that goes something like "if a nail is sticking out it has to be hammered in", so there is no tolerance for non-conformance.

not as profound as he thinks

[SideshowBob]

Gibson has always sought profoundness where there wasn't much (or any).

Techno-shock happens all the time, in many small ways. How many senior citizens in our country are cut off from the cultural upheaval that is the Internet?

Techno-shock on a society-wide scale also is not that rare or even unusual, when viewed in the full scope of history. Most of the Middle-East went through a similar upheaval in the 20th century, caused by the rise in prominence of oil as a major natural resource. Of course, fundamentalism and xenophobia were the result there, but the transformation was at least as traumatic as Japan's and perhaps more so.

In post war Japan citizens were flogged to consume the products of Japanese industry. The electronics industry was identified early on as an area that Japanese wanted to become proficient at. This consumerism conditioning has a lot more to do with the Japanese' current preoccupation with buying lots of seemingly useless gadgets. (In fact, post war excesses in all of the combatant nations have led to many facts of life that are taken for granted in those societies - e.g. suburbanization of U.S. cities)

If Gibson wants to impress us with his "deep thinking" hes going to have to come up with something better than school girls sending text pages to each other. (my 15 year old sister might find it odd that he thinks that only happens in Japan - she carries around one of those iMac colored Nokias)

On a slightly more pedantic note, I found Gibsons numerous mis-spellings and the stupid 2 inch column layout to be extremely annoying for someone who is a published author.

Yakuza and Sony and DoCoMo and Anime

[webword]

Yakuza and Sony and DoCoMo and Anime. What a strange future...

Re:Yakuza and Sony and DoCoMo and Anime

[alexburke]

FWIW, I heard that DoCoMo == Do Communicate on the Mobile Network.

--

Something to remember...

[knife_in_winter]

I think what Gibson has to say in his article is very interesting. I also think a lot of the comments here on /. criticizing the article are very interesting.

However, I think it is important for people to remember that William Gibson is a novelist. He's a writer of fiction, not a journalist. He makes his trade by writing things that will evoke certain thoughts or feelings in his readership.

So, of course, his view of Japanese culture is going to be highly romanticized. He will cite events and reveal opinions in a manner that totally supports his main idea or theme, whether or not it is factually accurate or considers all other perspectives.

Just remember, he's a novelist, not a journalist. If you want objective journalism, you have to look to someone or something that represents the ideals of journalistic integrity. I mean, why do you think I read /.?

Ultimate Early Adapters or Adopters?

[deprecated]

A typo?

Japan, the other side

[jyang]

Even as we live in technological advanced time as we do, somehow we still be bothered with ethernal worries, about love, moral, fear and greed etc. etc. that Greeks talked about thousands years ago.

What does it mean to "live in the future"? If you were a Roman in 100 A.D., do you want to live in the future year of 500 A.D.? I don't think so. I felt that the author takes on optimistic American attitude that "future is always a good thing" and the argument is pretty weak.

Haiku and tea ceremony and sushi are well liked for good reasons, but if world regard txt msging and robo-dog as the same level with Haiku, I would be worried about another upcoming "neo-medival age", an age of human without a soul.

The article raised an interesting point of comparing Japan with England, and other people went further comparing China to the European continent. Both Japan and England (Britian in general) went through relatively peaceful transition from medival to modern society and kept the monarch, and both culture are painfully rigid and full of rituals, while China and the Europe (France in particluar) went through bloody revolutions and social earthquakes to achieve the same thing, and people in both places value things like good food and tobacco smoking. :)

On the other hand, unlike to all nations mentioned above, Japan is a very exclusive society, their immmigration policy mirrors Denmark or Holland (a.k.a Never ever, not even think about it). In some cases 2rd generation Koreans born in Japan can not become a Japanese citizen. I find it strange that the author compare Tokyo to London, which is a very culturally diversed city. I'd say Hong Kong is more like London than any Japanese city ever would be (in decades to come). Case in point, I saw pakistainese in English movie, Hong Kong movie, but never in a Japanese movie.

Re:Female CEOs do exist

[jyang]

In chopstick culture (Japan, Korea, China, Vietnam, where food are eaten with chopstick) family finance are viewed as women thing's because there is not stock, mutual fund and bond investing in Asian domestic finance (I suspect it still the case).

As a chinese arriving in US after my college, I am shocked to find out American women consider themself "not good with money managing". Asian women manage the finance because they are the ones do the shopping, not because they have more power.

Re:Mojo-Dojo

[evilWurst]

he may simply live on the East coast instead. I do, and my high school only had french and spanish. college was more interesting (i went to indiana university for a while), but they offered so many languages more because they were huge than anything else. From what I gather, their high schools were still mainly european languages.

The west coast as a LOT more asian influence than the east, and that probably accounts for the different language course offerings.

Re:What The Future Will Consist of:

[alexburke]

Your sig is broken.

--

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[Fred Ferrigno]

Most technological companies are aware that the PC as a phenomenae will dissapear in some decades, being replaced by specialized, closed, devices.

Do not believe the hype. This idea is being fed to you by companies who bought the idea just so they could unload it on Wall Street. Face it: when people want a Universal Turing Machine (computers are luxury devices, this has nothing to do with need), they want the whole package. They don't want a crippled product that's "good enough". Why is Dell more profitable than eMachines? Why aren't WebTVs filling the homes of the computer illiterate?

That's not to say that specialized devices won't fill the market, but they need to have a more clearly defined function, one that isn't better served by a computer. And they're not going to replace anything, just add to it.

--

Re:Become Japanese? No Thanks!

[Fred Ferrigno]

Do I want to turn Japanese, no.

Are you sure?

The song, incidently, has nothing to do with Anime.

--

Re:Neuromancer

[SuiteSisterMary]

It in no way implies that she's YT; that's like saying that in 80 years, if you say 'Where do you want to go today,' you must be Bill Gates. Granted, there's not a whole lot to disprove the concept. But the only implication was that Miss Matheson was a thrasher. Not even a Kourier, just a trasher.

Oooh, a new book

[Digital Mage]

For those who don't rigidly follow the market, it looks like Gibson has a new book coming out called Pattern Recognition.
Very cool.

Re:Oooh, a new book

[Confound]

gibson's article was probably very little more than a plug for the new book. timing is everything you know.

Japan's present seems a bit like Japan's past

[MousePotato]

...the salaryman still comes to work at 7 or 8 and leaves at 10 to drink with the boss until 1 and expects to do this for one company his entire life. You grasp something a lot of people here are missing. I am not sure if it is so much of a downside as you imply though. The 'overworked' employee aspect of this may well be a very American point of view. I think it sucks but we should not be so quick to judge.Japanese companies and the government really plan for the long haul. It is not uncommon for a Japanese business plan to be highly detailed and projected out to 120 years. They plan to hire several generations of employees and often from the same families. This is culturaly ingrained since feudal times. So, unlike in the US, a person will do everything to keep their job, express loyalty to their company, focus their lives around the people in their company. Sort of an extended family with a historical job security plan. Bizarre, oppresive and uninspiring? Mobil Girls and group think? One step closer to borg? It may seem like that to an individualistic society like ours. I think in all the chaos of their techno revolution this facet will bring them through and Gibson may very well be on the mark. The long term planning, however wierdly distorted by technology pulling at it from every conceivable direction, will prevail and even out the swing in direction of Japan as a society. Maybe for them being a little 'behind' will hurl them 'ahead'. Their culture will probably adapt to it better perhaps even pervadeing the techno/cultural trends globally.

Jap/Eng similarities

[Gorobei]

It's odd the Gibson missed the the most obvious point:

Japan and GB are similar because they were both strong island nations.

Both cultures developed a "we are the best" culture because they were relatively immune to being conquered, and didn't have external ideas forced upon them.

With no frontier, both produced a culture of politeness, and a system that tolerated eccentrics (but not radicals.)

Re:Interesting, but a Rant it is.

[dancingmad]

Since Commodore Perry parked his ships off the entrance to Tokyo Bay and extending the velvet gloved fist of friendship and commerce to the Tokugawa shogun.

Perry was hardly doing so. His mission was to make Japan a refueling station for the states and to make Japan protect lost seaman He caused chaos by going into to the bay and made several (purposely) insulting gestures (i.e., He gave the Japanese white flags before negotians, telling officials they would need them for the coming war if they refused his demands).

He's also the major impetus behind the fall of the Shogunal goverment (the Bakufu) and the rise of ultra-nationalists supporting the the throne.

Also, in the classic Western way he believed he was bringing enlightenment to a backwards country.

"Friendship" is hardly the case.

Re:Become Japanese? No Thanks!

[dancingmad]

The constraints on individuals are in place for the greater good of society as a whole. In Japan, the individual is not the basic unit of society - the family is. As such, curtailed individual rights (gun control for example) makes life easier for everyone.

Most of Asia is like that - however, Japan is the only country advanced enough for it to matter to us.

Is it different? Yes. Is it automatically good or bad? That's an individual country.

Re:Mojo-Dojo

[Megane]

The Japanese learn English fairly early.

Correction. The Japanese learn English words very early. Because the classes are a required part of the cirriculum. But they don't learn much English grammar, and are almost never taught proper pronounciation. The "All your base are belong to us" thing is a perfect example of what happens when the translator is not a native speaker of the destination language. So-called "Japlish" (crazy mixed-up uses of English words) is another example of what this causes.

Americans rarely learn Japanese.

Because until recently, there weren't many classes offered, because there wasn't much interest compared to the much easier (for English speakers) big-four European languages (FIGS). And most of those that are offered are not much better than the English taught to Japanese, nor do they teach reading that would even qualify as a first-grade level (by not teaching any kanji, and often not even kana).

Now that anime is getting more popular, there is a reason to learn. You're simply not going to learn a language unless you have a lot of reading/listening material that doesn't put you to sleep. I took two semesters of Spanish in college (two semesters any language being required to graduate), and barely learned anything, despite being in central Texas where it's the second language. (Korean seems to be in third place.) Once I realized the only benefit I could get from learning Spanish was better TV news reports on NASA (I am not making this up), I gave up trying to learn any more.

At least when I finally made the decision to learn Japanese, all that poor Spanish became useful (the pronouncation is similar, and both have heavily conjugated verbs). Anyone who makes an effort to read lots of manga and watch lots of subtitled anime can pick up a decent command of the language in a year, and be reading like a (slow) fifth-grader after three or four years.

Which goes to show that most school language classes are worthless unless you want to learn, and unnecessary if you make an effort to learn. But you still spend a lot of money on books either way. ^_^

Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is

[nomadic]

This type of diatribe seems to come from people who have been in love with Japan for years, then go there and see exactly what they were looking for without noting anything that would interfere with their schoolgirl crush on the country.

It's not really a diatribe then.
--

Re:Mojo-Dojo

[elegant7x]

thing is a good example; the title "Cowboy Bebop" is a more recent example.

"Cowboy Bebop" is not a translation, thats the actual name of the show, like "Dai Katana" was the name of a game here.

Rate me on Picture-rate.com

Re:Not quite up to speed

[fiore42]

BTW, the word 'otaku', used in Gibson's article, roughly translates into 'Single Male Living in his parent's basement'. Which describes Slashdot trolls pretty well, don't you think?

Actually, "Otaku" literally refers to a person's house who is not a member of your group. The word got its connotations referring to people who were so obsessed with a specific thing that they never left home.

Gibon sees stereotypes. You don't have to.

[gkanai]

This was cribbed from my post to MetaFilter .

As someone who has a foot firmly in both American and Japanese cultures (speak both languages, travel frequently between both nations, have extended family in both nations, etc.) I respectfully disagree with Gibson. To his defense, many non-Japanese sci-fi authors seem to have a love affair with stereotype of Japanese modern/popular culture.

I'll wager Gibson has never spent an extended amount of time in Japan (i.e. months or years on end.) He seems to have a stereotypical view of the facade of Japan, certainly not any meaningful insight into the Japanese people. If he were to spend time outside of the major metropolitan centers, he'd see that the "Mobile Gal," "Muji," and "otaku" are not anywhere near central to or representative of Japanese culture in any lasting or meaningful sense. These are all trends less than 5-10 years old (within one of the older cultures of the globe) and his focus on these particular aspects of Japanese popular culture shows his lack of understanding of the more central aspects of what it is to be Japanese.

Americans are much farther ahead than the Japanese with respect to our use of the web in general. PC ownership is MUCH lower in Japan than in other nations because many Japanese don't have the space for a PC in their homes and the national monopoly (NTT) on local phone calls makes getting online via dial-up prohibitively expensive. So while the Japanese are much farther ahead in the wireless space, the rest of the world is much farther ahead in the PC/Web space and I'd argue that's more important over the long run.

As a related issue- let me ask MeFi & Slashdot readers to name one piece of Japanese software, besides PlayStation games, which is used by people all over the globe. (Your Japanese car doesn't count either ;) Can't do it? That's because there is none. Japan's weakness in software development (vs America, Germany, Canada, Ireland, Israel or India) might be argued as central to their declining dominance of "high tech." One other thing to note is that the consumer "technologies" which Japan dominates in -i.e. mobile and gaming, are not platforms that are capable of the flexiblity and power of the PC. The personal computer is obviously capable of communications and entertainment but can also be used for business, education, art, science, and a myriad of other applications that cellphones and PlayStations can't. Even with the promise of 3G wireless or PS3, it is clear that those technologies alone will not help Japan significantly for the future.

Manufacturing quality is rising all across the globe and isn't the dominant differentiator it was 3 decades ago. Not to mention that the newest innovations never did come from Japanese companies. One slashdot poster recently noted that none of the best graphics accelerator chips are made in Japan (those are mainly Canadian!)

The rest of the world has "otaku" just like the Japanese- spend time on any non-general interest mailing list and you'll find that otaku-ness is certainly not only the domain of the Japanese. I think one reason otaku-ness has been connected to the Japanese is their love of things- their "materialism" (which isn't necessarily a negative characterization in this case.) One could easily argue that being an "otaku" is being slave to an extreme form of materialism, so consider that as part of the equation.

Muji (which is a chain of stores that sell high quality products without brands) is merely the Japanese love of brands taken to one natural end- i.e. the brand without a brand. I love Muji as an idea and I think it's success in Japan is a positive sign that there are some who are moving away from the slavish deference to global brands (most obvious with women and fashion brands, but apropos across the spectrum of products) to a brand without a brand (which in itself is a brand nonetheless.)

Gibson's clearly only seeing what he wants to see in Japanese pop culture. Japanese culture, like many across the globe, is misunderstood and misrepresented by the dominant global media. It's easy to see only the glittering technology or the geishas or the sushi or the anime or whatever it is that the media and foreigners always gravitates towards. It's not so easy to look at the 10 year recession of the 1990's, the revolving door at the Prime Ministership, the non-reforms in the banking and education sectors which will hold back positive change for years to come. It's even harder to see the hidden aspects of Japan, the parts of the culture that aren't often open to foreigners and certainly aren't represented in the global media. (How many of you know the first thing about a Japanese tea ceremony?)

I urge you to reject the stereotypes and continually question the representation of Japan (or for that matter any culture not your own) that you see in the global media. You'll be far richer for it.

Gen

Re:Gibon sees stereotypes. You don't have to.

[MsGeek]

First off...great article. I'd love it if you wrote for my site.

PC ownership is MUCH lower in Japan than in other nations because many Japanese don't have the space for a PC in their homes

Well, you can blame Apple for not making a PowerPC followup to their Color Classic. Back in the day when the classic-format Macintosh was actually a fairly well powered machine, the Mac ruled Japan. Now that Apple no longer makes a compact Mac, and the Japanese see the alternatives, I think they are more inclined to sit this out. The Mac's Kanji support is still better than Windows' support for Kanji, although who knows if Kanjitalk exists in MacOS X. There are whole groups of people in Japan who are dedicated to hot-rodding Color Classics...here's a link to The Club For Creating The Strongest Color Classic, a place where Japanese computer geeks trade ideas for souping up Color Classics. And on the PC side there's always Sony's VAIO offerings, which seem to do a hell of a lot better in Japan than in the US.

----
http://www.msgeek.org/

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[LAI]

Gibson makes the sweeping generalization that Japan is "several clicks down the time line"

Actually, what he said was "The Japanese seem to the rest of us to live several measurable clicks down the time line." This may seem like a minor difference or none at all, but the point is that he doesn't try to say "Japanese people are so and english people are so. This article is not about how the Japanese are, but how the western world sees them, especially England. He writes about the japanese attitude toward new gadgets and fads, which you seem to recognize.

Another thing, which other people have mentioned (but bears repeating) is that Gibson made almost no mention of North America, and less of the US. He was writing for an english (um... paper? service? site?) and would have very different things to say were he writing for a site back home. Especially since "back home" means Vancouver. In fact, he says quite specifically that things are different:

London, being London and whatever else, eminently assured of its ability to do whatever it is that London's always done, can reflect Japan, distort it, enjoy it, in ways that Vancouver, where I live, never can.

What would be interesting would be a longer essay, talking about not only the english perspective on the Japanese, but the North American ones as well. Picture in-character monologues: someone from BAMA, someone from The Bridge, another person from London, and a Brit or Yank living in Osaka.

Ooh... I'm excited... what a cool idea...

Oh, one last thing: There was a mention at the bottom of the article of an upcoming book called 'Pattern Recognition.' Anyone know where I can find out more?

You must be Jamaican, because Jamaican my t-bone i

[abrager]

Presenting George W. Bush: Like Gibson, but without the steroids.
---

slashdot sucks

[abrager]

It cut off the end of my clever subject line. it said "You must be Jamaican, because Jamaican my t-bone itch" which i stole from badmoon.
---

uhhh no

[Teflon Coating]

Ever wonder why the Japanese were able to get text messaging ealier than us? Mabye it's because America was the first to start using cell technology. We had cell towers back in the 70's and 80's with the big clunky phones. We were first to start a new technology and the Japanese just started putting up cell phone towers more recently than we have. He seems to be saying that Japanese are first out the gate with new technology. But with that new technology you have to pay to upgrade down the line rather than if you bought the product 5 years from now when it would be in its newest version.

Mojo-Dojo

[Fervent]

Japanese culture won't be properly assimilated into American culture until translation for more works and entertainment is properly done (which, with over 20 years of experience with video games, still doesn't seem to occur). The whole "All your base are belong to us" thing is a good example; the title "Cowboy Bebop" is a more recent example.

I once read that it was still being determined if the quirky dialogues in the Zelda games were due to bad translation or Dan Olsen's (the guy who translates Japanese games for Nintendo) sense of humor.

The Japanese learn English fairly early. Americans rarely learn Japanese. Until better translations can occur, the best parody of the current state of the Japan-US union will be Mojo-Dojo from The Powerpuff Girls. In fact, the whole show parodies just about every Japanese animation convention imaginable.

Triangulation from '23

[wytcld]

As a historical reference point which may or may not correlate with the trajectory in Gibson's historical conjecture, see the diary of a visit in 1923 by the NY-based American junior partner to an expatriot Japanese nobleman. The account includes dinner with song and geisha, climbing Fuji, and getting caught in the Tokyo earthquake. (Their import-export business later failed in the depression. The Japanese partner was running a Japan-America Friendship outfit in LA at the time of Pearl Harbor.)

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[NullAndVoid]

Bush and his pals really emphasize this point. In the US we have so many resources, and such powerful and influential groups which profit from their sale, that the idea of conservation as an approach to handling an energy shortage is apparently unthinkable. In places like Japan and Europe, where space and resources are much more scarce, making more efficient use of resources is a necessity. Maybe 100 years from now the US will be forced to face this reality, and by then the global situation will be so dire that the societal changes we'll go through will be very severe. 1000 years from now this will probably be cited by historians as a major cause in the decline and fall of the American Empire.

Tech is morality-neutral, wouldn't you say?

[DeadVulcan]

But this is also the country in which there are no full access ATMs, no Birth control (until last year) and no law against denying somone a promotion because they are a woman... (well, also not until last year)... The contradiction of the techno idolatry and the hedgemonc morality of the society amazes me.

I don't contradict you on your stand regarding Japanese attitudes towards women, but I don't understand your last point. I don't see how the two contradict each other. Care to expand on your statement?

--

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[DeadVulcan]

[First of all, I want to say that if you have a userid, you should have used it, because your post was the most reasoned and insightful response I've seen in a long time. Made for a nice change from the flames I often get from others.]

A high index of automobiles per capita is not a sign of technological advance, but exactly the opposite.

One of the few uncivilized things I (a foreigner) have found in America is the total dependence on cars, which is directly linked to pathetically uneffective mass transit systems.

You're right, but I think that's more of a social difference than a technological one.

Your post (plus some more thought) has changed my position a bit. I started by accusing William Gibson of oversimplifying things when he said Japan is ahead of the rest of the world; I said Japan is not ahead in all ways. Now, I realize that that was also an oversimplification.

The actual level of technology may be higher in Japan. After all, tons of innovation happens there (sure, you may say that it happens in the U.S. first and Japan just adopts it, but I don't care what you say, tons of innovation happens in Japan, too). However, the adoption of that technology is following a completely different pattern than in North America. I'm no longer sure if it's more, or less advanced.

Why does Gibson think it's more advanced in Japan? Maybe it's a grass-is-greener thing.

And to all those who corrected me on the computer chip gaffe, thanks for not flaming. I would have realized my mistake myself if I'd thought about it, but I was rushed. It's an unfortunate thing that on Slashdot, if you don't post quickly, you don't get read. :-(

--

Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[DeadVulcan]

First, some credentials. I am of Japanese descent, and although I make my home in Canada, most of my family is still in Japan, and I've visited Japan at least a half dozen times.

Gibson makes the sweeping generalization that Japan is "several clicks down the time line" (and I'm sure he'll be first to admit that it's a simplified generalization), but I'd like to point out that there are some places where technology has made less inroads than in North America, at least for the common consumer.

Automobiles, for instance. You may scoff at that; after all, it was the Japanese car makers that gave American manufacturers a swift kick in the pants a few decades ago by exporting higher quality products for much less cost. But the per capita use of cars in Japan is far less than here in America. Here, it would be tough to imagine a 5-member family without a car. But it would be no surprise in suburbs of Tokyo or Osaka.

Now, admittedly, that's primarily because of the mind-bogglingly efficient train systems that are the envy of the world. But it goes to show that adoption of technology is not uniformly advanced in Japan.

Secondly, there is the technology that concerns us Slashdotters most: the personal computer. Adoption of the PC, E-mail, WWW, etc, were far behind in Japan. Game consoles have been common, but general purpose PCs have seen far slower acceptance. This might also seem bizarre, when the majority of the chips in our computers come from Japan (or Japanese companies). I think it has to do with language and culture.

In common households, you are most likely to see an ordinary refrigerator, a gas stove, two or three separate water heaters (one for the sink and one for the bathtub), a TV, radio, and maybe a game console if there's a young boy in the house. And oh, yes; one of those (in)famous fuzzy logic washing machines.

For regular folk, I don't think there's all that much difference between Japan and North America, technologically speaking. (Although I have to admit, those people who like gadgets really like their gadgets!)

--

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[puz]

But 100% of the wafers in America (wafer = a pure silicon disk from which IC's are made) are imported from Japan, and if Japan refused to sell wafers, the whole American electronics industry will collapse.

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[puz]

I think you are confused. Manufacturing wafer is different from "fabbing" wafer. Wafer means wafer. The pure, undoped silicon. The substrate. The fresh ingot sliced and pollished perfectly to the orientation of crystal lattice. What I said was Japan dominates the world in the production of raw material from which IC's are made.

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[puz]

What most Americans don't realize is that there were many Japanese companies such as NEC, Fujitsu, Hitachi, Oki, Toshiba, etc that developed their own 4, 8 and 12 bit CPU's in the early 70's based on proprietary architecture and ISA, most of which were intended to be used in calculators and domestic consumption. None of the proprietary CPUs were successful as a general purpose CPU in the US market, but several microcontrollers (e.g. H8) and variants of Intel and Zilog architectures (e.g. V-series) were moderately successful in the US.

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[Skuld-Chan]

Most of the chips in my computer are made and designed in Taiwan - and if not there are designed in the US and made in Taiwan. What about them?

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[Sycraft-fu]

This might also seem bizarre, when the majority of the chips in our computers come from Japan (or Japanese companies). I think it has to do with language and culture.

Actually it might supprise you to learn that indeed most chips inside your average PC are not Japanese. The processor is usually Intel or AMD, both American companies with plants all over the world (I usually see Intels from Costa Rica or Ireland and AMDs from Germany). The chipset for Intel boards is generally Intel and for AMDs it is a split between AMD and VIA (which is Tiawanse). Memory it depends, it used to be dominated by Asia (more Tiawan than Japan) however receantly a whole lot of memory has been comming from Micron and Infenion (American and German). The big 2 graphics card makers (ATI, nVidia who now owns 3dfx) are Canadian and American, respecitvely. The biggest soundcard maker, Creative Labs is headquartered in Singapore.

As the matter of fact the only component that commonly comes from Japan or a Japanese company that springs to mind is the monitor, since many people have monitors with Sony tubes.

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[GearheadX]

IMHO, the largest problem in many American cities today is our over-reliance on the automobile. Quite frankly, there are a high percentage of drivers on American roads who have no business being behind the wheel...

There's an over-emphasis on large cars with powerful engines, when with rising gas prices we really ought to be decreasing our gasoline intake with smaller cars.

I'm not just talking about the environment, though.. I'm talking about the sheer cost of feul.

Berk Watkins

Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan

[Shinzaburo]

First, some credentials...

How about: "Some background..." To be blunt, I don't think too much of credentials. I know too many morons with postdoctorate degrees. =) Heck, I've spent many years in Japan, but I wouldn't advertise this as proof that I know what I'm talking about. (I don't.)

...but I'd like to point out that there are some places where technology has made less inroads than in North America, at least for the common consumer.

Absolutely true. But to be honest, these instances are really the exception rather than the rule. In nearly every category, advanced technology pervades Japanese (urban) life far more quickly than it does in the U.S. I'm sure entire treatises have been written on why this is the case, so I won't bother going into it here. Some of it is cultural, but a lot of it has to do with the fact that Japan is smaller and more centralized. It's a lot easier to implement prepaid telephone cards, for example, when you have one local telephone monopoly instead of a dozen companies spread out all over the country.

But the per capita use of cars in Japan is far less than here in America. Here, it would be tough to imagine a 5-member family without a car. But it would be no surprise in suburbs of Tokyo or Osaka.

Hmm... I don't think this supporting example makes a lot of sense. There are many reasons why a family in Tokyo or Osaka wouldn't have a car (very expensive, lack of parking, efficient alternative transportation options, etc.), and none of them have anything to do with technology adoption. Moreover, computerized technologies (e.g., car navigation systems) have cropped up in vehicles aimed at the Japanese market much more quickly than in North America.

Adoption of the PC, E-mail, WWW, etc, were far behind in Japan. Game consoles have been common, but general purpose PCs have seen far slower acceptance.

Another less-than-convincing example, albeit better than automobiles. As above, there are many reasons for the relative delay in per capita PC ownership/Internet use among Japanese consumers (e.g., higher cost of PCs, expensive telecommunications charges, fewer Japanese-language apps / web content, etc.) that don't have anything to do with the willingness to adopt new technology.

For regular folk, I don't think there's all that much difference between Japan and North America, technologically speaking.

On the whole, you're probably right. But when was the last time you saw heated toilet seats with bidets, dryers, and wireless remote control units in North America? =)

Re:Neuromancer

[RedWizzard]

Of course Stephenson and Sterling could hardly be post-cyberpunk without Gibson, could they?

It's a take on the subject

[davonds]

It is important to remember that this is an explanation for why he writes what he does, and therefore the validity of his beliefs don't necessary count.

Unfortunately, his understanding of Japanese history and culture is about on a par with his understanding of computers. That is to say, he has an outsiders view, based on a minimum of factoids, and fleshed in with postulation and fantasy. Though I really don't believe that it is possible for a westerner to truly understand Japanese culture, the anglicized version of Japanese history as sketchy as it my be, is completely different than the Japanese version of Japanese history.

What The Future Will Consist of:

[Syllepsis]

TV say Donuts are high in fat

Kazoo

Found a hobo in my room

It's Pricess Leia

The yodel of life

Give me my sweater back

Or I will play the guitar

Hyakugojyuuichi!

Re:What The Future Will Consist of:

[NonSequor]

Dear God! My brain is trying to escape from my skull... and yet I'm enjoying it.

Er... Well, y'know. You can't make an omelette without um... destroying a forest. Or something.

Re:We're turning Japanese

[Pink Daisy]

I kind of agree with your premise, but I think the rest of it is way off. If the Japanese are unafraid of the future, it's because they've been hit over the head by technology enough times that they've become used to it. America on the other hand has usually grown into and with technology pretty peacefully, but that may change as the pace of technological change increases. I think we should take note of that; socially our culture is much more advanced than the Japanese. If you want an example of the risks, look at the North American Indians as an example of people who were kicked in the head by technology and never recovered. For us, and for the Japanese, there is still hope. Don't resist change too much, but go forward carefully, and don't beg change before its time comes. Also, don't believe in our own inferiority or superiority; it is only the whims of fortune that put us in a good position and others in a bad one; it could just as easily have been the other way around.

Re:What the...??

[BlackEmperor]

I have to agree totally. Americans just cant understand/conceptualise something unless it pertains to themselves. The top 3/4 posts according to score on this story back me up on that point. that's why americans cant understand or appreciate japanese culture.

"Pattern Recognition"

[Imperial Tacohead]

It says Gibson is the author of "the forthcoming Pattern Recognition." Does anyone know anything about this book? I'm a big Gibson fan, and I'd love to know more about it.

Re:Become Japanese? No Thanks!

[ackthpt]

Good book on the political side of Japan The Yamato Dynasty, by Sterling and Peggy Seagrave.

Hard to swallow all this love affair with Edo and how the people of the Sun goddess will ecclipse the world technology-wise. Something must be said for actually living in the world and getting by with a Zaibatsu running your life for generations. (We tried these things in the US and they have failed terribly.) Might as well look at Munich and say, "Gee, what a nice little city, all sweet and orderly and clean, and they make BMW's there, too! What a great model of what the future should be!" Just a few miles out of town and these perfect people had an oven.

BTW it was Nissan which administered Manchuria during the rape of Nanking. Not a good thing to idolize a people. Just admire some good traits and work with them to a common good.

--

Re:Interesting, but a Rant it is.

[ackthpt]

As you noted, the metaphor was Perry was less than polite and had been sent with a fleet as a demonstration of force. The Yamato Dynasty by the Seagraves is a brief, but informational introduction to the modernization of Japan.

Worth noting is how Yankee meddling actually led to the war in the Pacific.

--

Interesting, but a Rant it is.

[ackthpt]

Too bad he seems to overlook the politics which drove the Japanese to carve out a Pacific Rim empire. The japanese are not one people, just like the US isn't. They have their consensus, just that the public is more willing to go along with it. Same for many nations. Irony is, the US which spawns so much innovation is the great Rebel of the world, with so many individuals railing against anything authority suggests, even it it's for our own good (Disagree? Re-read the last few years of Slashdot articles and posts.)

The japanese adaptability is rooted in the obeyance of an old feudal system, which is certainly fraying a lot. Even as the Japanese have held a fascination and distrust of outsiders since Commodore Perry parked his ships off the entrance to Tokyo Bay and extending the velvet gloved fist of friendship and commerce to the Tokugawa shogun.

One thing about ordered societies, they don't last because in some way, they saddle someone with the cost. Even in these modern romanticized business-samurai times.

--

Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is

[puz]

Most Japanese lament the destruction of the beautiful nature and environment due to excess consumerism and uncontrolled urban expansion but are incapable of expressing such feelings publicly. That's why they created Godzilla to knock down tall buildings for them.

It's Microsoft's fault

[puz]

Microsoft is partially to blame for the reason you don't see any Japanese-written Windows software sold in the US. The Japanese version of Visual C++ links to the Japanese version of the MFC library, which most US users don't have installed in their PC.

Also their VC++ creates an application that uses Japanese fonts, which US machines cannot render. All Japanese PCs can render English fonts, plus Japanese consumers will make effort to read English in the English applications whereas American consumers don't make effort to read Japanese.

Microsoft probably has a good reason to try to shut out the Japanese from the US software market.

Female CEOs do exist

[puz]

Female CEOs do exist in Japan. I've seen a TV program featuring women who preside over nation-wide food chains, big hotels, Jewelry store, etc. (that they are report-worthy does admit to the scarcity). Also women control the finance in most Japanese families. A husband must ask his wife for monthly allowances. Also there was a period in Japan thousands of years ago in which apparently a woman ruled the country.

Why text messaging caught on

[puz]

I have a theory why text messaging in Japan caught on earlier than the US. PC's were overpriced, (comparable units used to cost twice as much), typing is not taught in school, ISP and land-based telephone connection are overpriced (many areas still charge by the minute for local calls), which all contributed to using a home PC to exchange email a very cumbersome experience. So, it it's cumbersome anyway, then the inconvenience of entering text with one finger on small buttons is tolerable.

Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is

[ahfoo]

I'm talking out my ass here because I've never been to Japan, but I think the ideal model of a cyber-punk environment is Taiwan. I fell in love with Taipei about ten years ago when I found it almost perfectly resembled the image of LA portrayed in the movie Bladerunner. It's cleaned up a lot since then, but it's geographically like LA since it's surrounded by hills and subject to a powerful inversion layer that really amplifies the atmospheric effects of the air pollution. Add in the huge Japanese-style neon billboards and the bizarre architectural experiments and you've got what I call home. Love it.
And when Gibson talks about the British orientalism image, it really makes me wonder why he's not more obsessed with Hong Kong. I like the gritty experimental-under-construction feeling of Taipei more than the relative polish of Hong Kong, but if you get off reflecting on that cultural contrast, then I can't imagine Japan being a better place to ponder than Hong Kong.
I betcha Gibson speaks a little Japanese and that's the real reason he keeps going back. Language is an addiction.

Re:Neuromancer

[vheissu]

I'm not so sure I agree. Gibson's first trilogy was quite dystopian. However, the Virtual Light series of books (Virtual Light, Idoru, and All Tommorrows Parties) seemed to indicate more than anything else, that even the future will be odd, but people will find their places in it. This seems pretty much identical to Stephenson in Snow Crash and The Diamond Age. As for Sterling, his writings are so varied that I'm not really sure what you are referring to. As for a view of the future, I don't find the events of The Diamond Age to be too likely anytime soon--in fact, weren't there subtle indications that it took place roughly 70 years after Snow Crash, which generally felt like it might occur 20 or 30 years down the road? Idoru and the other books of the series don't seem to make as global descriptions of the world as Stephenson's works do, but I think what predictions they do make are somewhat more rational, though I doubt anyone will dump enough cash into AI research to make a Rei Toei anytime soon...

What the...??

[Private Essayist]

First of all, how is this a "rant"? He's explaining something in answer to a question, not ranting.

Secondly, the article barely mentions America (other than a brief post-World War II period). It's about London and, secondarily, Vancouver. So all the comments about America's fascination with Japan, while interesting, show little relation to the actual article.

Gibson writes an article talking about the mutual fascination between the British and the Japanese. The American /. editors/readers then come along and assume he was talking about America instead?
________________

Well... he's been wrong before.

[stereoroid]

I like Gibson's books, especially "Mona Lisa Overdrive", which really benefitted from large parts of it being set in London (rather than Japan), but I'm a little sceptical about Gibson's factual writing. I'm thinking of his previous Wired article Disneyland with the Death Penalty, which started off well, but turned into a "gee, whiz" trawl through everything that's non-Western about Singapore. Over there, they go to some extreme measures to keep their lives quiet and orderly, but I would refer interested readers to Rem Koolhaas' book S,M,L,XL. It includes extensive essays on Globalization in general, and Japan and Singapore in particular. His focus is primarily architecture, but it's continually surprising just how dependent it is on society, and vice versa.

Still, I agree with Gibson's assesment of London's odd Japan-compatibility. The density has something to do with it, I think, In addition to those places he described, I recommend a visit to the Kyoto Garden in Holland Park (Kensington), which started off in 1990 as a traditional Japanese garden, but has gradually mutated into something less austere, and now looks like the Teletubbies would be at home there (complete with bunny-rabbits)!

Opinions on North America from JP

[Interrobang]

Japanese people I've met seem to have three things to say about North America:

"I don't like it. Too much sky." (Meaning, of course, 'Too much space.')

"You think this is crowded?"

and "Why are your /*piece of handheld technology, as cell phones*/ so big and clumsy?"

The "space" issue is particularly jarring to those Japanese who somehow wind up touring Canada, a very large country with only 35-ish million people... :)

Re:Opinions on North America from JP

[spaceon]

And you should see them freak-out when they come to Australia. Most parts of Australia are nothing but 'sky'.
Plus with only around 12 million people it's very sparsly populated

Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is

[Dancin_Santa]

The fascination with Japan comes as a result of its perfect embodiment of postmodernism. The future isn't about a painless symbiosis of ancient traditions and modern thought and technology. Rather it is the result of the clash of those things that results in a wholly new and sometimes weird perspective and culture.

On the one hand, we have the Confucian and Buddhist and Shinto traditions, eons old, which dictates the day to day relationships of the Japanese. It forces itself into every crack that it finds, from the Buddha box in the home, to the strict social stratification at school and work, to the omamori hanging from the rearview mirror. As much as these are traditions and rituals, they still hold meaning for the Japanese people.

On the other hand, Japan is a country that is insecure with itself in many respects. It is this insecurity that causes them to throw themselves headlong into crazy escapades of modernization. In the Meiji era, they showed that while they weren't the first to discover mechanization, they could still use it to raise themselves to par with the West. In the early Post-War they were the quintessential apes, copying anything they could, eventually producing goods quite a bit better than their Western counterparts. Now we find them early adopters rather than copycats with their train system, cell phone system, among other things. They are more "Western" than the West in many respects, likely because of their awareness of "Westernness".

At the same time they worry that their customs are throwbacks to a bygone era and take up technology for its own sake, the culture finds its way back into the technology and products. These two paradigms can't be simutaneously believed. So long as their insecurity of their own traditions persists, they will always be forced to update and advance themselves. But this updating does nothing to assuage their insecurity, rather it reinforces it.

The Japanese awareness of their place and unsurety of the same is a sci-fi author's draw. What else does the sci-fi author write about other than society's coming to grips with the future and its place in that future?

Gibson's "diatribe" isn't about turning a blind eye towards the problems of the Japanese society, it is about the fascination with that aspect of the Japanese culture that so closely resembles his vision of the future.

Dancin Santa

Neuromancer

[flynn_nrg]

I bet most of /.ers have read this book, and what comes to my mind is that his like for the japanese-esque society fits the cyberpunk dark world very very well, I mean, I could not imagine it being in a different/better way, but then, that book made a really big impression on me the first time I read it.

Re:Neuromancer

[snoop_chili_dog]

I only read one of his books. Neuromancer. I thought it was crap and I haven't read any of the other ones. I hate the fact that most sci-fi writers completely ignore humans in their stories. Robert Heinlein knew how to make you care about people not technology. His novels were about the human spirit harnessing technology. Most sci-fi's are about technology locking in the human spirit.

Japanesque??? Puh-leeeeze...

[BigDell]

As an American who lived and worked as gaijin in Tokyo and Fukuoka for a long time, and for whom Japanese is a VERY comfortable and fluent language, I just gotta burst Billy's bubble. Ever since those ridiculous cyberspace books that geeks purportedly love so much began to appear, I've watched Americans become obsessed with anime and many things Japanese. I've lived there. They don't REALLY live that way. It's really NOT that much different than here, but it IS a lot more crowded. Their government is worse (believe it or not), with a new prime minister every six months... Big business is in cahoots with the politicians, even MORE SO than here... No one trusts the government or big business, but everyone works their respective asses off... Teen girls DO seem to live a "special existance", however, which is quite entertaining and quite beguiling to someone who is "gaijin" but comfortable in the culture. However, believe me, London has no better appreciation of Japan than does Topeka or Vancouver or Montivideo... That is all...CRAP. So sorry William Gibson... maybe it gives you a rise, but I can honestly say you all don't have a clue... not at all. And if you want to find the truth, don't look at Tokyo, Osaka or the big cities... You MUST (MUST MUST MUST) go out to the quietest towns in the countryside. That is where it's at... Then drop all your preconceived notions and let the real Japan find you... It's a lot better and MUCH more rich and fascinating than anything you'd find in your books... Trust me.

Not quite up to speed

[tb3]

I always take Gibson's writing with a grain of salt because he's not really up to speed on technology and he will admit it, sometimes. He wrote "Neuromancer" on a manual typewriter, and in "Count Zero" (set in the late 21st century) he had one of his characters get a 'special' service from the telephone company that blocked calls from certain numbers.
Neil Stephenson is a lot more tech-savvy; check out his short book "In the Beginning was the Command Line" about his experences with different OSes, and why he settled on Debian Linux.
BTW, the word 'otaku', used in Gibson's article, roughly translates into 'Single Male Living in his parent's basement'. Which describes Slashdot trolls pretty well, don't you think?
-----------------

Ummmm, no

[Sycraft-fu]

Actually I can name a bunch of non-Japanese wafer manufacturers: Prema (Germany), Kingston (Britian), Ultrasil (USA), and IMP (USA). Also, I'm 99% certian that IBM makes at least some (if not all) of their own wafers.

Two niggling little points

[Macrobat]

The song is "West End Girls" and has to do with people from the different sides of the same city.

Kung-fu is a generic, Westernized term for Chinese martial arts, not Japanese.

On a related note, I just heard "Mr. Roboto" ("...with parts made in Japan")on the radio for the first time in at least fifteen years the other day. Can't say I'd missed it.

Journalist, Novelist not mutually exclusive.

[Macrobat]

Take, for example, Hemingway. Or Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Or Tom Wolfe. Or Joe Klein.

He will cite events and reveal opinions in a manner that totally supports his main idea or theme, whether or not it is factually accurate or considers all other perspectives.

And this is different from contemporary journalism in what way...?

Why is this "Not Usual Slashdot Fare"

[akondo]

When JKatz can write any old crap and post it, and the /. book reviews are almost all obscure sf novels? Why not coment by a genuinely good sf writer (for a change) ?

lets trot out all the old stereotypes, shall we?

[akondo]

as in: "I think the Japanese and American cultures are locked in a twisted symbiotic relationship. The Japanese are masters of perfecting technology and Americans are masters of thinking of insane new things that break the mode. Other cultures tend to be someplace in the middle" In other words, the Japanese can't invent anything (they just copy and refine, oh yes) while those crazee yanks are just the most original shit-kicking free-thinking nation in the whole world (that'd be the same Whole World as the WWF, and World Series Baseball). All other cultures are just points on the line between these two extremes? Have you ever travelled outside your own farm, boy?

Re:heh

[ketsu]

i just felt i had to mention that bladerunner was based on 'do androids dream of electric sheep', written by philip k. dick..
(i realize that this may be common knowledge, and am only doing this to quiet the nagging voice in the back of my head.)
philip k. dick wrote a number of futuristic books (granted, they all get kind of weird about halfway through) but certain ideas for the technology are interesting. maybe later, when i can remember some of them, i will babble more.

We're turning Japanese

[cpunkgrrl]

I am not sure there is too much to say in response to this, but I did find the article a great read.

I have long been a fan of Gibson and cyberpunk and even ran a cpunk MUD. In order to do the latter I learned what I could about Japanese culture, even reading stuff like Shogun which is set at the time England first stumbled across the island gem.

What I learned makes me agree with what Gibson says. The Japanese have an extrodinary ability to use another cultures advances as a template to make something really great (ie the car). They haven't in the past done much for the innovation side, but they are able to run with fresh ideas and churn out some neat stuff.

I think that Japan is a better setting than many Western cultures because as a westener I feel that was have a lot of angst as well as fear toward technology. A whole world of knowledge opened up to us with the advent of the public accessible web and right off the bat there are stampedes to regulate it. But, the Japanese are unfraid of what lies ahead and just keep running forward.

The Japanese have also had some really cool toys for awhile that we have only recently seen, for instance, the Izone camera from Polaroid. About 10 years ago the Japanese had a similar camera and over the years have made nearly credit card sized versions.

I do think that something was left out of the article, and that is that Gibson's first major novel, Neuromancer was published in 1984. This was the beginning of a Japanese fascination (though not always good) in America. Remember songs like "Eastern boys and Western girls" and "I'm turning Japanese" and "Kung-fu Fighting"? The cyberpunk genre came out of the 80's an embodies much about that time, including how influenctial Japan was on out society at the time.

So why Japan? Because while we stand around quibbling about if the future is safe for our children or not, they will doing some fantasic things that will bring us into a cyber era.

Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is

[cpunkgrrl]

I agree that Japan has it's issues. They are horrible about respecting endangerd species, they are definately only now coming up to speed on some societal issues.

But, even with all that being true, I think that missed the point. Why is Japan perfect for the cyberpunk genre? Because it is the technology and the fashion that we see and hear about. Because it is romantized for those things. Now, as a culture to model ours after, sure it falls short.

Just like we romantize knights in shining armor and the chilvary of the medieval era without taking a good look at historical documention about the role of farmers under fuedal lords, and the visciousness of the battles, and the unsanitary way they lived. But it makes for great stories!

Same with Japan and the cyberpunk genre, it may not be all it's cracked up to be, but it sure makes a great story!

Untechnologically..

[aux_user]

I should point out that the West has had a love affair with Japanese art and culture predating our identification of the Japanese with all things futuristic and technological. The beat poets were highly interested in Zen bhuddism as were a lot of minimal artists at the 60's.

Minimal Japanese art was a big influence of the style of French art, like art nouveau and expressionism. Perhaps this is because the avante garde of Western culture (be it culturally obsessed nerds like Gibson, or bohemian artists) constantly look for a way to overthrow the Victorian-era Christian systems of values and behaviour that are prevalent in the west.

Hence, we see them as futuristic because everything that has been modern about our culture for the past century has often been influenced by Japan. And everything modern about their culture has been influenced by us.

Say wot?

[illaqueate]

The epitome of the culture industry wherein that which is foreign is novel and subversive, following a simple dynamic of consumption where one moves from one slightly differentiated form of entertainment to the next, hopefully slightly ahead of its climax and decline for its claims to so called status and differentiation in individuality, which is left up to liberal arts majors to find subtext and hidden meaning where there is little or none.