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TiVo Response to 2.0.1 Upgrade Issues
Keeper writes: "Richard Bullwinkle wrote an
official response to issues raised in the TiVo Upgrade Isn't article. The gist of it is that the changes made were only supposed to affect new units, not units upgraded from 1.3. Revision 2.5 of the software (due out in September) will reenable all of the functionality found in unsubscribed 1.3 units."
they are busy putting the genie back in the bottle
you are obviously not a software developer who has to go through a QA department. 3 months in development for something that popped up by accident, has people working on it for customers who arent paying them, and will REALLY have egg on their face if they screw the software up with a half-assed patch, is pretty quick.
eom
They were trying to get away with illegally altering a product which people bought from Sony or Philips, so that they would be more likely to subscribe or remained subscribed to the tivo service. It is fortunate that sites like this hold unethical companies responsible.
"We're going to fix it! By September 2001...We hope this quick response will assure you that we did not intend to change your experience as a non-subscriber, and that we take your concerns very seriously." BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! Apparently Tivo is SO "Concerned" that they have promised to fix their error 3 months from now. These type of actions beg the question...Who wins when the company who sells the hardware is the only source for the "service"? Quality and customers suffer just because you chose not to pay Tivo the "privilege of using our hardware" fee.
Err... if it doesn't dial in, how did they get the upgrade?
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
Huh?
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
I'm perfectly capable of going to the store and buying flour, yeast, water, eggs, and everything else you need to bake your own bread. Why don't I? CONVENIENCE. It's nice to go grab a loaf of bread that's already sliced so I can make my sandwiches. I'm sure you use many convenience products to make your life easier.
:)
I can click 3 buttons and say "record every episode of this show." I can click another button and get an instant replay of something I just saw on live tv, or pause it and go to the bathroom. I can view a list of everything recorded on the tivo, view it's description, and then play it instantly. No need to label every tape, or re-label it when I overwrite it to put something else on it. If i was a jerry bruckheimer fan (which i'm not) I could record any movie that he ever did that comes on any channel. Same goes for any actor, type of show, or other keyword that you can input.
Some of your distinct points:
"no need for tapes..."
Tapes are great for a while, but in general the quality sucks. with my DirecTivo, I see the show just as it was when it came off the satellite. Also, with a larger drive in my tivo, it will be able to store up to 200 hours of video. That's a lot of tapes.
"don't want to run a phone line..."
I bought a 30-foot phone cable from radio shack, and ran it along the wall. not too bad. Of course you can also get a phone line extender that uses the power lines in your house.
"dont need or want the service..."
As for paying tivo for the service and upgrades? I'm all for it. it costs money to collect the guide data from the different sources, and make sure that it works ok with your tivo. It costs money to make the upgrades to the tivo that I'm getting for free... like the ability to record two different programs at the same time.
To each their own I guess, but the tivo has a lot of features that I like, and am willing to pay money for.
In your analysis, you listed all of the reasons that YOU wouldn't buy a Tivo. If a 30-second skip is just that damn important to you, I guess you won't buy one. I turned on the 30 second skip feature through the Tivo backdoor and it wasn't that useful, especially since network TV seems to go out of its way to make commercial breaks not end on 30 second marks so they can through in a quick network identification and promos for Must See Thursday. The fast-forward with the rollback on the Tivo is much more precise.
To be honest, I certainly didn't buy the Tivo for its fast forwarding features. It is a perk. Most people that I know that bought one bought it for the convenience factor of recording TV shows. They don't want wireless Ethernet. They don't need to upgrade the hard drive beyond the 30 hours it came with. It is an APPLIANCE. You want to treat it like a COMPUTER which it was never indended to be.
As for Tivo's business model, margins in services are much much higher than there are in selling hardware. It seems your complaint with their business model is that they make too much money. I think that was the plan. That's why they got Sony and Panasonic to make the boxes while they license the software and sell the service.
It'll be years until there is cheap commodity hardware that replicates Tivo's functionality. Until then, Tivo can make a pretty tidy sum of money. I'll bet you Tivo makes profitability before the commodity appliance appear.
Or you could live in Chicago which has to be the largest metropolian area that doesn't have a regular showing of ST:TNG. It happens at odd times in the middle of the night in a non-recurring fashion. The Tivo is great for that since you can set it up to record ST:TNG whenever it is on. It hasn't missed on yet. :)
Why? Are you incapable of programming a VCR?
I had been considering the purchase of a TiVo or similar such device. But only because I've always been frustrated with my VCR.
Now the thing is, I'm perfectly capable of setting the time on the VCR.
I'm perfectly capable of setting up a recurring program on the VCR. I know I want to record my 1 hour show every wednesday at 8pm on channel 9.
The thing that bugs me about the VCR is having to remember to stick a tape in on wednesday morning that has been rewound.
It's frustrating when you get the first 15 minutes of the show, but then the tape runs out. Or nothing was recorded because I forgot a tape, etc.
So I thought TiVo would be kind of cool in this regard. No need for tapes... don't want 'em anyway as I intend to watch the show within the next day or two when I'm home.
But like I said. I can set the time, I can program the device, I can even read a TV guide to know when my show is on.
So why do I need or want this service?
Honestly I don't. It's also inconvenient for me to run a phone line in next to my television.
At one time I had asked people if I could use the Tivo the way I wanted without subscribing and they assured me that this was the case.
It's now apparent that this is not true, or at least TiVo doesn't want me as a customer.
That's too bad.
But I've noticed a product out there that does fit my needs. WinTV-Personal Video Recorder card from Hauppage.
It sounds intriguing. Does everything TiVo does that I want, but also includes a capability to archive recordings to Video-CD.
The only problem right now is it doesn't support Win2k but they are working on that.
For around $10/year I can have full TV listings, along with reviews and other interesting news, delivered to my home.
It's called the TV-Guide.
Besides, I usually don't need a TV Guide to figure out when my favorite television shows are on.
I can see your point. I guess I look at it as a problem with this idea of post-PC independent devices.
;)
The PC has offered a lot of power, most notably the ability to be general purpose for a lot of creative tasks. Recording TV to harddrive is just one such task that I can utilize the power of my current PC to accomplish.
I have no interest in replacing my PC with lot's of independent post-PC devices if each one of them requires a monthly subscription.
And by my reckoning I primarily will only be recording things when I'm not at home... so having a next to unusable PC doesn't seem like a problem.
That's not precise or particularly accurate. TiVo does not sell the hardware, Sony and Phillips do. Customers who puchase a TiVo PVR have not paid TiVo until they subscribe to the service.
*yup* I saw this news also in my "Older Stuff", dawn
--
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
Tivo may have made a mistake, but they are letting you have a free ride they don't have any obligation to give you.
If I gather correctly, non-subscribers plugged their TiVos into the phone line to set the clock. Without the ability to set the clock, the TiVo is varely functional. TiVo promised certain functionality to non-subscribers when they purchased the unit, and that functionality included time based recording. TiVo didn't let users set their own clocks, so get this this functionality you must plug it into the phone line. Hacking around the clock is not a reasonable option. I shouldn't need to hack on the hardware (and void the warranty) to get basic functionality.
So, TiVo's upgrade took functionality away from users who paid for it. Of course people are going to complain!
You all sound like a bunch of fucking whiny kids that can't handle a couple months without TV.
Actually they sound like adults who spent $400 dollars on a piece of hardware which just lost functionality they paid for.
However, if you feel this is childish, presumably you're much more mature. I'd be perfectly happy to sell you any number of products that disable functionality without warning.
When reading these stories, I went to Amazon.com to see how much people liked their Tivos and its like freaking testimonials..."It has revolutionized my life..." Have these people never heard of VCRs?
Yes, a TiVo is just a VCR at its core. But it is without a doubt vastly superior to most VCRs. If you want to watch a show you've recorded, just pick it from the menu, no hunting through tapes to find it. You can pick the show to record from a friendly GUI. You can tell it "Get me The Simpsons", and it will. Simply put, TiVo is easy. So easy that you stop managing your recording and viewing. You just watch what you want to watch when you want it. When you move from a 56k modem to broadband, you change how you interact with the internet, it becomes a utility you assume is present, like water. When you get a digital video recorder, you change how you interact with television, you watch at your convience.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
> I've seen very few people make real cases for buying a Tivo without the service. The service is what makes Tivo great. Without it, it's a pretty expensive VCR.
There's a very real case for caring whether it will still work if you think there's a significant risk the service won't stay around for years.
A VCR still works (and can be serviced anywhere), even if Sony or Panasonic or JVC go out of business. If Tivo go out of business, you want to at least be left with an expensive VCR, not just an expensive box of parts.
--
rant
It's plugged into the phone line to get the time from Tivo's time server. From what I can gather, it's either impossible or difficult to set the time on a unit which isn't plugged in to the phone line. Check the board from the first article for more detail.
--
(Although moderators without an appreciation of the original Rocky and Bullwinkle could explain a lot about the past several months)
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Only physically disconnecting the phone line would prevent this. That would make it rather difficult to utilize the second of the 2 choices you offer, the one that doesn't involve having to hook the unit up to a computer or having to know anymore about the operating system of your Tivo than you do about the (built-in to the hardware) operating system of your VHS VCR.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
As I pointed out to another poster elsewhere, the "perform test call" option is a lot better than the serial port one--you don't have to know the software or hook up a separate computer--but it involves having the Tivo plugged in to the phone line, and the Tivo is pre-programmed to "phone home" while you aren't looking, without getting your permission in advance, whether you are a subscriber or not, and it's during one of those calls that the unwanted upgrade happened. So not only do you have to keep performing the test call to keep the time set, but you've got to plug it in to the phone jack, and then be sure to unplug it afterwards, each and every time. I wonder how strongly the owner's manual, much less the pre-sale literature, warned about that. Much more kludging around and you might as well keep on juggling VHS cassettes.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
"TiVo already profited from your unit before your bought it."
I can't begin to figure out how to answer that, but any business plan where the profit happens before the sale is even made must be connected with the internet somehow :-)
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Where have we heard that one before?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I agree about the stupidity vs. malice, but the trouble is they shouldn't have upgraded software on units which weren't subscribed. The software upgrades was part of the subscription. Granted, I bought the lifetime subscription, but I think the non-subscribers got screwed this time.
Imagine if you had one of those Nextel phones that works as a two-way radio to other Nextel phones. You don't bother to get the cell-phone service and you just use it for the two-way radio. Then one day, the company (with which you don't have service) decides to 'upgrade' the firmware and removes lots of functionality as a side effect. I'd sure be pissed.
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no, tivo doesn't. if tivo thought they still owned the hardware, the hard drive hacks wouldn't be out there. the tivonet hacks wouldn't be out there. tivo thinks they own the software and the service. and you know what, i think they are right. its basically $10 for a subscription to 'tv guide' and additional software updates. people say the software updates should be free. fine, they actually are, since you don't have to have an active subscription to get them, so therefore $10 a month gets you tv guide info (program listings + some other content). anyone complaining about tv guide charging for delivering a magazine to your house?
I just don't get it. You buy the Tivo from Philips, and then you hook it up to a phone line for a free time/update service that Tivo provides.
You're right. You don't get it. These people paid good money for a product which requires the "free" timing service you allude to.
They purchased the product with the understanding that the time setting service (as opposed to the listing services) would be available. They did not agree to or expect this service to retroactively sabatage their equipment and make an optional service which they had chosen not to buy a required service, after the fact.
You all sound like a bunch of fucking whiny kids that can't handle a couple months without TV.
You sound like a fucking whiny objectivist who cannot see basic human and consumer rights in anything other than terms of immediate profitability and contract business law. Capitalism is one aspect of our society, not the entire sum total of our society. Consumer rights legislation (no matter how weakened by the last couple of decades of neglect and outright attack) balances that against other social interests. On a more fundamental level (and less related to the immediate subject at hand, but nevertheless a valid example of another aspect of society which has nothing whatsoever to do with the objectivisit world view) human rights, religion, and even democracy itself stem not from contract law or capatalistic self-interest, but from a completely unrelated set of ideals and expectations which our society has deemed important, even necessary, to forming the kind of world we wish to live in.
Back to the immediate subject at hand: if the next time you took your car in for a tuneup the manufactuer (or its representative in the form of the local mechanic) were to replace engine parts with inferior alternatives because they accidentally built cars that could run 10 million miles and 200 years without repairs, threatening their service revinue, you would probably complain bitterly. Nevermind that the tuneup was offered for free as part of a sales promotion, the fact remains that your property has been sabataged after the fact in order to enhance the revinue stream of the manufacturer.
This is tantimount to vandalism of private property by the manufacturer (you, not they, now own the car or the TiVo), whether or not it is an automobile or a recording device and irrespective of whether the sabataged part is a mechanical device or a piece of software.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
> has to go through a QA department
If their testing is so thorough, how did this get through in the first case?
> for customers who arent paying them
To be more precise, you should say: "for customers that already paid them".
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
The 'razor and blades' strategy is a profitable one but always fails when someone can buy a razor that does not need new blades.
Yeah, I guess that is why Shick and Gillette have gone out of business...
There is a big flaw in that argument, razors that do not need new blades (ie electrics) suck. Straight razors are better, but more difficult to use.
The Tivo without the service sucks, don't buy one if you are not going to get the service. The Tivo with the service is the best thing to happen to TV since color.
Oh and TV listings is not all you get for $10 a month. You also get Suggestions, Wishlists, a builtin "magazine" with more suggestions, a powerful search feature, season passes, support, and software upgrades. Well worth it for me and many others.
Q.
They did test it out, and quite extensively. I was involved in the early releases (betas). However, I am a lifetime subscriber to the service (as I am sure MOST, if not ALL) of those involved in the testing were, simply because you get the beta software when your TiVo dials in to get program data. Obviously, if you don't have the service, you don't dial in, and therefore, do not receive the test software.
I mean, don't get me wrong, but the TiVo is only a mediocre appliance without the subscription. With it, it is much more... shall we say... revolutionary.
Jethro
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
AFAIK, you can pull the drive out, dd the backup partitions over the main partitions, plug it back in, and you'll have whatever version the unit shipped with. You'll need one of the hack boot disks for your PC to do this. And you'll actually have to read the Hack FAQ to know which partitions to do, because I ain't gonna post step-by-step instructions.
:)
Then disconnect the damn phone line!
(Don't blame me if this blows up in your face. I've never tested it! But it should work, unless the 2.0.1 upgrade zapped the backup partitions too. You will probably lose all of your recordings though...)
My Blog. Sela Ward can sell me long distanc
The quick response was referring to the message posted, not the code.
For the record, once a TiVo has been upgraded it is NOT possible to downgrade again as the upgrade is one way.
Neil.
rm -rf / is the evil of all root
There are plenty of things it can do without being subscribed to a service.
When I first heard about this in the previous article, I had hoped it was a mistake. But the response I read, while revealing such a mistake, also revealed the real reason I will now never consider buying a TiVo. That reason is that their whole marketing plan is to get subscribers for marketing purposes. So as far as I'm concerned, TiVo is out and doomed ... not the box, per se ... the company.
I don't own one. I was thinking about getting one. But now I never will.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Try this: Go into Circut City and look at anything you have even a minor bit of knowledge about. Then ask sales droid about something relevant to the product. Watch sales droid's face go blank, and then come back as he starts to spew bullshit from every orifice. :p
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
When companies get these statistics, it does not enable them to 'better serve' the people, it enables them to 'better guess' what will make them more money. Not the same thing at all.
If you have a TiVO, you PAID for it, outright, so you shouldn't PAY for anything else if you don't want to. Nobody is asking for *anything* for free, they are asking for the device to do what it did when they BOUGHT it.
As I stated in one of the earlier TiVo threads, hackers have avoided anything to do with the program guide data because it's where TiVo makes its money.
:-)
Should TiVo go belly up (which I doubt will happen, but whatever) one of the first things I can see these brilliant people turning to is a free source of programming data (ala Guide+ or something)
And you can even make a wager on whether it will happen or not: spend $10 / month? spend $100 / year? spend $250 lifetime... think they'll go under in less than 2.5 years? avoid the lifetime subscription
Actually, it would mean they care what their non-customers think.... TiVo doesn't make any money on selling the units, they make their money on the subscription.
Oh no, I've got this satellite receiver, and I don't pay for a subscription, and the damn service provider won't give me any channels unless I pay them monthly! I paid good money for that satellite receiver, I shouldn't have to keep paying just to make it work.....
Sounds pretty silly, doesn't it? Well, that's basically what this issue is like. It's made pretty clear that the box is basically a doorstop without the service.
Can some one make something like a TiVo that works without the monthly service? Sure, but that's not current business model for this sort of thing. Note that UltimateTV does even less without the monthly service. While I understand that folks WANT to be able to do this stuff without paying a service, the facts are that product doesn't yet exist.
TiVo can claim anything they want, or rather, disclaim, but that doesn't make it legal.
If they sell a product that can do something, and force everyone to upgrade that product (post-purchase) to a product that doesn't do as much, they're liable.
They *broke* it, it no-longer does that they said it did when they sold it.
This three month wait is bullshit too. I'm sure they could compile a working version of the code, without the crippling, in a day or two. And then simply increment the version number and upgrade people again when they next call in.
Sure, they'd want to do a little testing to make sure they didn't accidentally break anything, but if they only remove nag screens it's not exactly rocket science or anything.
I work in a company that makes software-upgradeable devices. We hit this sort of problem before where we make a 'broken' release. We can usually fix it in two business days, sometimes less. And that's the time before the customer gets it, not before it makes it into testing or something.
TiVo is simply preying on the ignorant who don't know how easy software is to change. The people who don't understand that companies have no right to screw with your product after you buy it.
They need to release a fix inside of a week, or give these people free subscriptions for the three months.
If they don't, well, they'll lose a lot of customer support. I'll certainly add a 'Proof TiVo is run by thieves' page on my website in an effort to remove any future business they might ever get. Small potatoes maybe, except that stuff like this spreads so rapidly on the net...
A candidate for the "Didn't even look at the link" award.
The phone line is for setting the time. TiVo didn't provide any other way to do it and the clock consistently drifts.
Without hacking it, there is *NO WAY* to set the time.
> "You all sound like a bunch of fucking whiny kids that can't handle a couple months without TV."
How about "A bunch of fucking whiny consumers who simply want the product that they paid for to work as advertised"? That's just ever so slightly more accurate.
> A conventional VCR will work just fine
Sure, if you want to find tapes, rewind to empty spots in the tape, deal deal lower-quality pictures, and not be able to pause live TV.
But, other than all that, yeah, it's just like a VCR.
But you know, I don't really give a shit. Even if it was exactly the same as a VCR, people paid money for it, they deserve it working as it was advertised.
If TiVo never intended the product to work without service, they shouldn't have sold it in Canada. The fact that they did is pretty strong proof that in the beginning (before their revisionist history) they did intend it to be a glorified VCR that would do more with a subscription, instead of their current party-line...
A timely fix, or compensation for the lack of proper service.
They could easily remedy this by providing free service to the affected people until the fix is available. The unit already makes the call, it wouldn't cost them a dime.
So, who cares? Are we to blame for their lousy business models?
These people paid money for their TiVo, and have given TiVo demographics to sell.
They are customers with all the rights due any other customer.
Most of the oldtimers on those forums own stock. Many of the older threads on there were about those people discussing the prospects, etc.
It's not suprising they want to rip other people off, they're greedy asses who want their stock to rise, regardless of the cost to anyone else.
The party-line is that the BB isn't a TiVo corporate board, but the administrator and most of the oldtimers there are stock-holders, and the funding for it has never been properly explained... It's a lot like those fake fan-sites for movies.
It's just a bunch of dishonest people looking to screw someone over as the best way to make a buck.
They are timebombed...
The clock drifts pretty horribly, from the description of users (1+ minutes per months, in three months you're missing the beginning of all your shows.)
There's no way to set the clock from the menus, so it's not merely like any other unset clock in your house. This one you CAN'T set.
So they tell people to leave it plugged in so it calls up and grabs the correct time.
(This also sends them the demographics, so if anyone ever says unsubscribed boxes are costing them money, they're lying (It's a fact, they report a tidy chunk of their income as sales of demographics.))
It's obvious they are malicious intent, just look at the way they handled it.
Their official representative told people to take what they got and lump it, because they aren't customers and TiVo doesn't care one bit about them.
He later backpeddled and said that was an accident (sure...) and that if you merely wait three months, your Tivo will function as expected again. (If you believe that they'll get it right, this time.)
If this was an accident they'd have appologized immediately and offered free service (which restores the unit to the proper functionality) for the duration of the problem.
They did neither. They're using fraudulent business practices, false advertising, and intimidation to run their business.
I see that the AVSers have come back to check out the source of the /.ing...
Who cares what the original cause was, it wasn't until there was a huge outcry that they stopped being assholes about it.
TiVolutionary's actions were probably enough to uphold a fraud charge, if not extortion.
He basically said (and I know you saw it) that non-subscribers didn't matter at all to TiVo, because they aren't part of the revenue stream, thus he didn't care what happened.
Then the "non-TiVo" admins of the forum started harassing anyone who suggested that TiVo had done a bad thing. (I say that in quotes because most of admitted stockholders, and there have been supported allegations in the past that a few of them are getting payola from TiVo.)
I just read your post, where you basically said that everyone should just shutup and deal with more nag screens, because, well, um, oh just deal with it... Was that an accurate summary?
These people bought a product that didn't work without being plugged in (claims to the contrary, you can't set the time without this) and they operated it in the correct (even according to TiVo) fashion. Then TiVo changed the software and rendered the system almost useless (excessive nag screens, etc).
Take your pick.
1) The unsubscribed users aren't TiVo's customers. This means that TiVo sabotaged a device belong to someone else, sold to them by a third party.
2) These people are TiVo's customers (though indirectly) and TiVo owes them the same level of service they were promised when they purchased the products.
Either one works, though I think #2 is closer... TiVo was using the demographics info that was uploaded, and by doing so, was implicitly accepting the user's phone-call.
Take your pick, imcompotent, or criminals. I'm thinking incompotent at this point, but if they don't clean up their act pretty quickly, I'll lean toward criminal.
They *need* to offer either immediate return to 1.3-level functionality, or temporary subscriptions. To do less opens them (completely justifiably) to lawsuits.
Then they need to get heavy into the PR to convince the lifetime subscribers that they aren't next. As someone pointed out, lifetime subscribers aren't generating any revenue for TiVo either... What's to stop them from pulling this again if they aren't forced to make it up to people? (Or, if the first was an accident, from doing it deliberately this time.)
What if the next version of Quake 3 disabled cheat codes, and user-made levels (in single-player, it already blocks cheat-codes in multiplayer.)
Now, let's say that you like playing low-gravity Quake 3 (a favorite among my friends, actually) and have made maps that work well with this.
So you connect to a server one day and when it does the online-authorization it also sends an update, without asking, which removes support for these things.
Would you be annoyed?
The product doesn't specifically say you can set the gravity levels, but people have heard about its customizability and bought it for this.
So now, when you try to play Q3 with your friends, you can't use the settings you like, or the maps you want.
Now, to tie this into TiVo, imagine that you can't simply stick the CD in and manually reinstall it.
Would you be annoyed?
Well, maybe not, you see to be in TiVo's pocket from some of your other posts... Stockholder by any chance?
The thread was pulled because the administrators of the board are stockholders. (And there are rumors they get payola, cash, free TiVos, etc, for running the board.)
Not exactly an unbiased solution.
Rest assured, this is being mirrored, like DeCSS was...
It gets even worse for TiVo if they didn't sell you anything, because they have no right to be doing anything to your box.
But, I'm pretty sure that by their automatic downloading of demographic info every night, they entered into an implicit business relationship with you.
Either way, 'fixing' someone's device so that it doesn't work the way it did when they bought it, without their permission, is going to be illegal in many ways, depending if they planned this, etc.
The sole purpose of the Internet is to get porn and bomb making plans into the hands of children.
I'm just sayin'
The sole purpose of the Internet is to get porn and bomb making plans into the hands of children.
Yeah, but were you getting free services from the car dealership? Maybe free tire pressure checks, and they set the clock on your stereo? Then they exchanged chips in the cars' computer for one with less horsepower?
I could understand people being more upset if the Tivos were time bombed and only worked for a while without the service and no phone connection. (And that wasn't made clear when it was purchased.) As soon as you connect it to the phone and start using part of their service, you can't expect them to upgrade the software and set your clock for free.
The people who have 1.3 and aren't connected to the phoneline are still in the same spot as they were when they bought the Tivo.
The only problems I can see are:
1. If you have a v1.3 subscribed, then cancel your service, can you go back to the v1.3 and use the machine like you originally did.
2. Also, what if Tivo goes away? I suppose it's like having a Motorola sattelite phone, now. Except the calculator and games should still work on the phone.
well, it has gotten harder to find new 8 tracks at radio shack, but ebay always has blank 8 tracks for sale, value village and other thrift stores sell many prerecorded 8 tracks that it is easy to tape over
i have many mix 8 tracks i make from my mp3 collection for cruising in my car
Try this.
For the goatse.cx shy, http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=vcr
Go into Circuit City and look at the Tivo's. Then ask sales droid when 2.5 will be shipped with the models. Watch sales droid face go blank.
make Linux, not Microsoft. sin(beast) = -0.809016994374947424102293417182819
Youre one of THEM arent you??????
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
It seems that TiVos in their 1 week trial period aren't immune to the service upgrade, either. I've had my TiVo HDR312 (new in box) connected to the phone for two days, using the free trial week. Just last night, it was flashed with the 2.0.1 software. So if anyone is thinking about getting an older TiVo that has 1.2.1. or 1.3 still, the same caution applies about the phone line. Your first call will be fine, but your next call may contain an upgrade.
I don't understand. Why would their choice of market tactics release them from any obligations?
I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
TiVo lets you buy the units without service. They were forcefully upgraded without the user's knowledge, and that upgrade reduced functionality. That isn't right.
Yes, "forcefully" is the correct word there. TiVo does not provide a way for you to manually set the date and time. If you want your date and time to be correct (and not drift) you need to connect it to a phone line.
Lets not forget, there are some very legitimate reasons why someone would not need TiVo's service. Such as someone living in Canada or some other area which the service doesn't cover. Or someone with multiple TiVos and only wishing to have the service on 1 of them.
If TiVo wanted service to be manditory on all units, they should have done that. They shouldn't be "punishing" users that have found a useful way to use one of their boxes without service.
Quoth the Penguin, "pipe grep more!"
Well, considering that you are not even given the ability to set the clock yourself, probably the same thing that happened to your divx player...
Makes a nice cage for hamsters.
(Ducks)
These people think they still own the boxes, even after you've plunked over your money and taken the box home.
Perhaps they think they're doing the best job they can to deliver value to their customers. Does there have to be a conspiracy behind every tree? Do you look under your bed for Bill Gates before you go to sleep at night?
Tivo put out an upgrade of their software that was intended to add functionality to the box, and in all but a small handful of cases, did.
Yes, I read the article. Notice that the author still indicates that the company intended to reduce functionality of those devices that are not partaking of the subscription services.
/. knee is, as always, in hyper-speed auto-jerk mode.
Read it again. They're removing the functionality going forward. They did not intend to remove it for people who'd already had it. The people who won't get the quick-record capability will never miss it, because they never had it to begin with, and were never promised it.
It sounds to me that Tivo is trying hard to keep it's promises, it stumbled slightly, and the
We should all agree to some sort of 72 hour moratorium before declaring every error a conspiracy.
No, nevermind, that wouldn't be any fun at all.
Thank goodness we didn't jump to conclusions assuming this was Yet Another Evil Corporate Move - imagine how silly we'd feel!
It should be no more than a week to get a version of 1.3 into the hands of everyone who wants it.
And how does Tivo know whether or not you "want" it? It's not like you can put a Post-it note on your box saying "Please downgrade me ASAP!" Any change in software will get rippled to every Tivo - so they're not about to rush a slap-dash "fix" into production, and that's the right thing to do.
At the risk of changing your sense of perspective, their 2.0 upgrade adversely affected what, a few dozen people? Maybe a few hundred? It's a drop in the bucket. By rushing a "fix" to appease 0.2% of their customer base they risk hosing up everyone. Better they should take their time and do it right.
Well, "it has revolutionized my life" indicates a life that is a little too reliant on TV, in my opinion, but it has certainly revolutionized the way I watch television.
How many programs do you record on VCR? Have you ever missed an episode of a program that you watch regularly? Have you ever turned on the TV and either
a) turned it back off after surfing for 10 min
b) ended up watching crap
because there was nothing on that you wanted to watch?
That never happens to me. Never. There's always something good on TV, I never miss an episode of my favorite shows, and I watch it whenever I want.
TiVo is not a very important part of my life. The part of my life that I spend watching TV, though, it has revolutionized completely.
TiVo doesn't make money on the units because THEY DON'T MAKE OR SELL HARDWARE!!! TiVo didn't sell you the unit, Sony or Phillips did.
You don't have to purchase a subscription to the TiVo service for old units that advertised the unit could be used without the service. The new boxes have in nice big words that the TiVo service is REQUIRED for the unit to work.
If you read the statement this article linked to, it's quite obvious what happened.
They went "damn, our bad -- it's not supposed to do that on old units, we'll fix it". It happens. It's not like they woke up one morning and went "hrmm, what's the best way to screw people we don't do business with?"
What more do you want?
What would you define as "timely"? An hour, a day, a week, a month? No matter how long it takes for them to correct the problem, someone is going to claim that it could be done sooner.
The problem is that fixing this isn't as simple as adding a few lines of code. On top of that, they have to run the software through a LOT of testing to make sure they didn't foobar something else up really bad (and believe it or not, the software running is AMAZINGLY stable; my unit has NEVER crashed). On top of that, an upgrade has to be created which won't turn anyone's machine into a permanant doorstop (ie: current unsubscribed users are experiencing a bug which renders their machine useless to them; however, this can be fixed. An upgrade which hoses the machine to the point where it doesn't function can NEVER be fixed; this isn't a trivial task and the testing/verification for this proceedure takes a LOT of time).
Riiight ... everyone BUT tivo is allowed to have bugs in their software. When was the last time you used a Microsoft product that didn't screw something up horribly?
Do you HONESTLY think that they're so starved for revenue that the 100 people that bought a TiVo WITHOUT subscribing would change anything? Yeesh...
TiVo is the MODEL of how a good company should be run. They make a cool product that WORKS. They used open source software and released their changes. They arn't out to rule the world. They talk frankly with their customers and own up to their mistakes.
The unsubscribed TiVo never had an off the shelf way to skip 30 seconds ahead. It was what would be considered, at best, an Easter Egg in the 1.3 software.
If you're a software engineer and work for a company that allows you to make a significant changes to the software without going through a testing, verification, and regression cycle then you ought to find a new company to work for, because the one you're working for now most likely releases buggy crap software. Then you've got the time to develop and test an upgrade proceedure that will work on every single variation of every machine in existance.
The 2.0.1 software was in beta testing for at least 4 months alone, probably closer to 6. And believe it or not, it's rock solid.
Why would you want a 30 second skip when you can fastfoward at 60 times normal speed?
The fast forward at 60x + play + autocorrect means you almost never have to compensate for overshoots found with a 30 second skip. 5 minute commercial breaks last about 2 seconds.
The reason why people like me "leap" to the defense of TiVo is because we've USED the unit and love it. It's not just a glorified vcr with vcr+. It's not just a glorified vcr with a program guide either.
People like you just don't understand the ramifications of what CAN BE DONE with such a device.
The $10/mo isn't just paying for tv program data. It's also paying for the paychecks of the programmers adding new features for the software.
I may also submit that maintaining program guide data is also a non-trivial task -- it requires the ability to organize over 25000 timeslots (that's channel + program + description + peripheral info) per WEEK for every service area in the united states. That means a single person would have to be able to enter 10 shows every minute in a 40 hour work week. I'd expect (optimistically) one entry/verification per minute, so this means there need to be 10 people working on data entry for program data ALONE. And that's just to cover one area. More likely there'd need to be 20 people working to cover all channels aired across the country. Then you need someone to maintain what cable company carries what channel in what area. Let's say you underpay those 20 employees and only pay them $45,000 a year. That's $900,000 a year just to maintain the guide data. With just 200,000 subscribers, half of that $10/mo would be used to pay for the maintenance of guide data. And this doesn't even take into account the cost of distributing that information, nor obtaining the information. And that's a conservative estimate!
The 2.0.1 upgrade added Wishlists, various ways of eliminating repeat recordings, and season pass prioritization/conflict resolution; those are not the only 3 things added with the 2.0.1 release, but they added so much to what the unit is capable of that it's unbelievable.
I can now tell the tivo to record all movies that have Jackie Chan in them (a wishlist recording). It will now record only new Episodes of ER instead of the 20 repeats of the show aired throughout the week. It will now record both Farscape AND the an episode Iron Chef on Friday (as opposed to Farscape OR two episodes of the Iron Chef).
And that's just 3 of the enhancements with the new software. The old software was able to do some pretty kick ass things as well.
So tell me again how $10 a month to maintain the guide data and fund future enhancements to the software is inflated?
This isn't stuff that a simple tv tuner card + software on a pc is capable of.
You miss a significant point. In the case of a TiVo, you don't rush a fix out to just a few customers, you end up rushing a fix out to ALL CUSTOMERS. The "update" code doesn't check to see if you've got a subscription or not, it just checks to see if there is a new version available and grabs it. I believe they have the ability to send updates to specific TiVo serial numbers or a range of numbers, but they need to know those #'s first.
You also neglect the fact that any 1.3 unit could be unsubbed, which means that it COULD be any unit in existance. It may be a subsample, but you don't know what that subsample of units is.
Your estimate of a "fix" is also overly simplistic at best. You don't know ANYTHING about how the code is designed. You don't know how the ShowNagScreen function is called or what it does. You don't know if it's all over the code, or in specific places, or running off of a timer. You don't know if there are any performance issues with the WasIOnceA13System check. The problem is that the 2.0.1 software isn't a minor change to the old code -- it's a significant change; it isn't as simple as going back through CVS, doing a diff, and combining the code with an if statement around it.
The channel banners completely changed from 1.3 to 2.0.1. You don't know what all is involved in conditionally changing the manual recording description to display the time/date recording information. Recording also changed significantly (in 2.0.1, when you press the record button it takes the contents of the current live buffer and prepends it to the rest of the program, so you get the whole tv show; with an unsubbed unit, the tivo record the first half hour and then stopped with 1.3; with 2.0.1, just enabling the record function would just add the current buffer to the recording list; still doesn't work as intended).
Being a "software engineer", I'm sure you have also at some point changed one line of code that broke a core piece of the software in a non-obvious way.
Now tell me again why they shouldn't bother doing any testing?
Yes, sending out a new release is expensive. That's why the need to get it right the FIRST time, not make a fix, send it out, find bugs, fix the bugs, send out another release, repeat.
... ooh goodie. You still don't know where when or how this needs to be placed in the code, to make sure it's ready by the time it's needed, etc. Of course, you could probably put some JIT setting code everywhere it could be used, but again it's no longer simple...
....
Additionally, TiVo is NOT going to be supporting multiple revisions of the software. They can probably get it out to the effected people first, but everyone is going to have it eventually, or there may be problems NEXT time the software is released.
The show nag screen shows a function. What else could it do? You tell me, I dunno what else it's doing. I don't know what other flags it sets, if it's actually integrated into some house keeping code, or anything else of that nature.
Static/global boolean variables
When was the last time testing brought up a non-obvious bug without doing a full regression test cycle? Wait, these changes are supposed to be simple -- only a line or two, they don't need to do any real testing
EVERY release of the TiVo software has to be treated like a major release. It's not like it's a simple matter of downloading an updated dll or uninstalling an upgrade like it is on windows. Everyone is stuck with whatever is sucked onto the current box until the next release. That's why the current people with unsubscribed units are stuck! They didn't thouroghly examine the unsubscribed mode of the software, just the bits that do manual recordings! If you think the reaction they got from people who DON'T do much with the box is bad, just wait until 99% of the people responsible actually providing money to TiVo get pissed off.
You didn't bother responding to a few other points I made, so I'll assume that you acknoledged their validity.
The new boxes have the phrase "TiVo Service Required" plastered all over the box. The old box said something along the lines that the box was still functional without the service.
That's how this whole mess started. They didn't want to remove the functionality of the old boxes, but did from new boxes. Just so happens that they missed some things in testing because they wern't paying a whole lot of attention to it in the first place.
But I've noticed a product out there that does fit my needs. WinTV-Personal Video Recorder card from Hauppage.
It sounds intriguing. Does everything TiVo does that I want, but also includes a capability to archive recordings to Video-CD
The problem with that kind of solution is that you either have to buy a PC to run them on, which makes it way more expensive than a Tivo, with far less functionality, or you'll have a next to unusable PC anytime it records something.
Hehe. You certainly have a vivid imagination about my work life! You're basically right about testing procedures etc, except it doesn't apply in cases like this.
These are a few isolated bugs, not significant changes to the software. Standard procedure in the business when you've released software that's disastrously broken for some set of customers, is to rush out a bugfix release to them, often within days. Not three months.
There is no need to develop and test an upgrade proceedure that will work on every single variation of every machine in existance, since only a small identifiable subset of the machines have this problem. According to the Tivolutionary explanation, the reason this happened was just that they didn't test for these cases.
Further according to the explanation, they do have a state for this category of users in the code. They obviously have both the new and the old code. So the fixes would be to insert code like this in about 5 places.
if (oldNoSub)
old code;
else
new code;
This is getting a bit drawn out and off topic, but I'm having fun so I'll keep talking.
You miss a significant point. In the case of a TiVo, you don't rush a fix out to just a few customers, you end up rushing a fix out to ALL CUSTOMERS. The "update" code doesn't check to see if you've got a subscription or not, it just checks to see if there is a new version available and grabs it.
Do you know this for a fact? If it's true, it's probably one reason they don't make a bug release. Updating every Tivo out there is probably pretty expensive.
I believe they have the ability to send updates to specific TiVo serial numbers or a range of numbers, but they need to know those #'s first
They can. I requested 2.01 beta and got it a day or 2 later. So they could easily let people with this problem request the bug fix update one by one. If they cared enough.
Your estimate of a "fix" is also overly simplistic at best. You don't know ANYTHING about how the code is designed.
Sure. But if it's designed anywhere near a professional level, it will be this easy, or pretty close to it. If not, there is really no hope for this company.
That it should take 3 months is ridiculous. If they worked at that speed, 2.01 would have taken 40 years to do.
You don't know how the ShowNagScreen function is called or what it does. You don't know if it's all over the code, or in specific places, or running off of a timer.
The function shows the nag screen. What else could it possibly do?
You don't fix it where it's called, you fix it in the function. To get it back to only show it every 8 hours, you'd let the function remember the last time it was shown, and if it's called before that time + 8 hours it simply returns without showing the screen. That's probably how it was implemented before.
You don't know if there are any performance issues with the WasIOnceA13System check.
If there are, they could introduce this hitech invention called a "boolean variable", which makes it so they only have to run that function once. Pretty neat.
The problem is that the 2.0.1 software isn't a minor change to the old code -- it's a significant change; it isn't as simple as going back through CVS, doing a diff, and combining the code with an if statement around it.
Sure. Someone familiar with the code would have to get the old code and put it back in in a workable way.
Being a "software engineer", I'm sure you have also at some point changed one line of code that broke a core piece of the software in a non-obvious way.
I probably have. Which is why you test these things.
Now tell me again why they shouldn't bother doing any testing?
When did I tell you the first time?? You're confusing me with some fantasy figure. Of course you do some testing for a bugfix release, but not the full test cycle that you do for a major release
.
So they sabotage the property of thousands of people, and now they expect them to be happy by a "we didn't mean to", and "you'll get your stuff working in 3 months again".
:-), and this is pretty out of character for them. My guess, having been through a few startups myself, is that since the company isn't doing so well, they've hired some hardasshole business people to make more money by becoming more ruthless.
Imagine a car dealership popping the tires of your new car after a few months since you didn't pay for the extended insurance! It has to be illegal, and they should consider how amused a judge would be by their childish excuses.
Saying they'll fix it in 3 months is not nearly good enough. They should fix it ASAP. I'm a software engineer, and if those changes takes three months to do, there is no hope for their software. A week is more likely. And meanwhile, these people should get the subscription for free.
I'm a very happy Tivo owner (and less happy stockholder
What I don't understand is why people insist on buying a TiVo if they aren't going to buy the service that makes TiVo what it is.
The service is good. Really. The company is good too. They have taken great strides to work with their customers. If you don't want to buy into the monthly fee business, spend $199 and get the lifetime service.
If you're really that unwilling to deal with the nags and issues, then build your own TiVo box. If you don't like the TiVo service, then a real VCR is still the best answer... it will give you all the benefits of a service-less TiVo, and the ability to swap media.
As has been stated repeatedly, they can enable backdoors perminantly. That will give you the ability to set the clock manually via the UI. Of course, without guide data, the tivo is next to worthless.
Good points all, but you should also include one of the main benefits my TiVo gives me. I don't have to rush home from work/gym/whatever to catch a program that starts at, say, 8pm. I can leisurely come home, fix dinner, do whatever other tasks need to be done, and then sit down at 8:20, for example, and start watching my program from the beginning. Can you do that with a single VCR? Nope. Uh oh, I've got another favorite program starting at 8:30. No problem, TiVo will record that one too while I'm still in the middle of the 8pm program!
Server to run sendmail, bind, apache, linux etc... Minimum 500 dollars, unless you want to run them on a 486 or something.
Tivo stepped up to the plate and admitted they made a mistake. They've stated that they are working on resolving the mistake but can it take priority over other revenue generating streams? Ofcourse not, they have to work it into their software code. The fact that they were working on a grandfathering system at all is amazing to me. Since non subscribed tivo owners generate ZERO revenue.
I for one applaud Tivo for stepping up to the plate and admitting that this error made it through the cracks and they are planning on getting a resolution. They've even set a timeframe for resolving the issue all together.
No they were not bugs as was stated, it was part of a code change that was to affect NEW boxes shipped with 2.0 only, but that fact got losted in the stream of new code. Sure Tivo has egg on it's face but they are doing something to fix it. Now how many companies do you know who quickly admit they had a problem and are willing to fix it? Especially since it doesn't affect it's revenue generating customers?
Runestar
If god forbid Tivo goes paws up, the first thing that will be done, is Richard Bullwinkle aka Tivolutionary, Tivo's online expert will publicly and dramatically release all of Tivo's secrets atleast to the guide data information. He's stated so publicly on numerous occations. That will help the hackers out tremendously. I'm sure there are enough bright minds in the underground to figure out ways to have tivo dialup through an ISP or via the tivonet card and get the information that tivo needs to continue onward.
Tivolutionary has stated that tivo has a list of people wanting to back them that runs around the block so hopefully this will never happen.
Runestar
Richard Bullwinkle was Tivo's webmaster, and became much more. He's their online representative on the avsforums. He is the voice of Tivo in the online community. His online name is Tivolutionary.
Runestar
of those "internet appliances" that sold for pennies on the dollar for the hardware. Lots of you geeks were buying them (without the service) to hack them into linux boxes. The companies that made these gizmos soon wokeup and made it impossible to buy the box without the service. And rightly so! Tivo seems to be in the same boat. Now, I suppose they could make a stand-alone version that would do what most people like without the service, but would you pay %150-300 more for it? The whole thing is a package deal folks! Maybe they should have made that clearer in the begining. They are sure doing that now! Buy the lifetime sub and be done with it. (But I think Tivo ought to buy some insurance to pay off on the balance of anyone's lifetime sub if Tivo goes out of business within 20 months of anyone buying that sub).
To be more precise, you should say: "for customers that already paid them".
No. Customers without service have not paid TiVo a dime. TiVo has PAID THEM, indirectly, through Philips or Sony.
You see, TiVo subsidizes every box, or at least they used to. You buying a box COSTS them money that they then make up with subscription fees.
I guess the whiners think hardware also wants to be free?
No, customers don't have to "support TiVo like some kind of charity". My point was that TiVo:
- pays you $200 to buy the box,
- allows you to use the box without paying them a dime,
- allows you to use their network and leased dialups to keep the time and software on the box current without a subscription,
- takes the time and effort to test how at least part of the box works without a subscription,
- takes the time and effort to release a new version of their software to fix the bugs they missed for the people who don't want to pay TiVo anything, and
- takes up the significant network bandwidth to download this upgrade to all of their users...
...and people are STILL BITCHING!
You say you think people would be willing to pay more up front to avoid dealing with this? Then why didn't they? If you pay the lifetime subscription fee (which was, until recently, $200 - hey, what a coincidence!) then not only avoid this apparent charity-guilt complex, but you get the programming guide for free. Let's do that math out loud: All you have to do to get the guide is *pay TiVo the money back that they paid you*. What a deal!
Frankly, I see TiVo giving a lot more support here - for NEGATIVE payment - than some of the free software icons like FSF.
There is no excuse to a Tivo not to work fully as a VCR without subscription. They are leaving out a big market share somebody else is going to take with his own Tivo clone.
I was thinking about buying one until I got to this article, I had no idea the thing didn't work as a VCR if you don't pay a subscription... it doesn't make any sense and if their business model is to subsidize boxes, they are going straight to hell.
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HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
That's a good question. The purpose of the links is to make it easy for people to find information about the topic at hand. The general topic is TiVo. Believe it or not, some people here might not know much about TiVo and I am simply trying to help them understand more about it. If nothing else, the links will be useful as a reference for folks.
Note: I don't really care if my postings get moderated up or down. I get enough karma through other postings and activity. What do I care? If you don't like the links, pass over them. Avert thine eyes!
How to Download YouTube Videos
You are right. Usually I include that link as well. I appreciate your effort.
How to Download YouTube Videos
From Steve Outing:
What TiVo Teaches Us About the Internet
"The conclusion I arrive at is that big ads on online content and news sites will not be a big success. While the online news and content industries are headed down this new path of more intrusive online ads, it well may prove to be the wrong way. Just as television advertising will need to adapt to the realities of TiVo users like me skipping over commercials, Web publishers must deal with the same issue."
How to Download YouTube Videos
Well, they wrote the script to do the upgrade in exactly the same way...
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Addlepated - punk & metal
Considering TiVo's business plan/methods do you really think this was an accident?
They're still not fixing the 30 second skip. If I owned (and I don't) I can imagine how pissed I would be if my upgrade removed that "bug".
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
One day after Slashdot mentions it, we get an official response with the phrase, "we never had any intention of trying to diminish the value of an existing box without the TiVo service, or of annoying those of you who use the box this way in order to push you into becoming paying subscribers." WTF!?!?! This is totally new information. Every TiVo user on the forum was under the impression that TiVo did not care about non-subscribers, since these people actually cost TiVo money.
The whole "official response" is fully of language that completely contradicts every earlier post in the forum. Granted, almost all of those posts were from people who are not TiVo employees, but it's still amazing.
What upsets me (and probably every other forum reader) the most is that it took so long from this information to come out. This official response should have come out six months ago.
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Lord Nimon
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
However, I noticed that all source code was removed from the page of the developer. Does anyone know why the source was pulled? A mirror of the file ExtractStream-0.1.tgz is available at http://www.stampede.org/~skibum/tivo/ I't be a great pity if such an amazing hack were to be lost forever or for development to stop. What I want to know is, was the author threatened by TiVo or some other party? I'm not sure if they'd have any legal ground but it seems very unfair to threaten this man legally for his great hack.
Look, the damn thing is a digital vcr. It's cool as that alone. The so-called "service" mostly consists of spying on me and selling the information to marketing companies. I don't want it. I just want a fscking digital vcr, and it was advertised as such - with the "service" an optional extra.
This response is not nearly sufficient. I have no trouble believing it was an oversight and suggested earlier waiting for their response before acting, but this response simply isn't acceptable. This is a property rights issue. They cracked the boxes of non-subscribers without permission and now say they'll fix the damage they caused by september? They should be facing both civil and criminal charges for this.
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Most of the users who are using a Tivo without paying for a subscription realize that its not Tivo's primary concern. The problem is is that Tivo upgraded the software without concent of the users who purchased the devices to use as VCR or whatever.
I don't recall anyone without the service saying that they wanted free service, they just wanted the machines to function like it did when they bought the machine.
I had the service for a few months, but I reliazed I didn't need all the extra features. It was my poragative to cancel the subscription, and I did. I didn't tell Tivo they could make my machine less useful 10 months after I cancled my subscription.
Anyhow, this has been repeated over and over and still people think that users who do not have a subscription are just leaching. When in fact they are or where, using the device as it was sold to them.
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Please tell us how the average consumer is going to set the clock through the serial port. Does the average consumer know what a serial port is?
Does setting the time through the serial port void the warranty in anyway? If not, I would like to know how to do that.
Making a test call requires the phone line to be plugged into the device. Are there instructions in the manual that state that the phone line should only be in place to make a test call, then removed?
Do you realize that this device and other PVR's are sold as consumer level devices and that most of the people who buy them do not know its actually a computer?
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Who said anything about getting around the service? I don't need the service, I dont have the service, I dont want the service. I do want to make a few manual recordings and pause NFL games. What does using a Tivo without service, which its quite capable of doing, have to do with hacking smart cards?
Tivo, from a year ago when I bought it. Service was *optional*, Not required or hacking needed or knowing about serial ports or linux or computers. It was sold to me as a box that performs a function.
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Bzzt... wrong! Assuming that we are talking about a customer that has never had any subscription, they have paid TiVo nothing, nada, zip, etc.
In fact, if all they did was buy the box and never buy the service, they are costing TiVo money! Yes, that is correct. See, TiVo pays Philips and Sony to produce them and subsidies part of the cost to get it low enough. As of right now TiVo makes no money on the sale of box. (For proof, look at their most recent earning reports and talks about plans to reduce these subsidies)
It is kind of like buying the razor without buying any blades. Gillette loses money on that.
TiVo is a service company, they provide the software for the boxes and the listings in a format that the software understands.
Yes, the TiVo name is on the box, because they have licensed a reference design for the machines, but make no mistake, when you buy the box, you are funding the pockets of Sony and Philips and costing TiVo money.
Why go even that far. If TiVO were smart they would introduce a 2nd-tier service plan which is composed of one single thing - time syncing.. Let'em charge that $1 themselves and this whole problem would vanish. It would be a win-win situation.
No, it won't (although you raise a good point). Some obvious disabling has taken place too, to remove this possibility.
I can't afford toy cellphones. Here in the UK, it's cheaper to buy a _real_ on and give him my old one !
My cellphone does work without a service - It's a clock, and I can play Space Invaders on it. My 6 year old's cell phone works without a service too - it lights up, and he can play at making calls with it.
If the limited functionality without a service is all that you need, then why buy the service ?
If a contract offers a particular set of functions without buying the service, then it's a clear breach of that contract to withdraw those service later. AFAIK, the TiVo contract stated that these services might not be available on later boxes, but that they were available on boxes of that generation.
Your "stupidity explains most perceived malice" comment is probably true here, but that doesn't excuse TiVo's behaviour, nor does it remove the loss suffered by existing TiVo owners.
What's the financial status of TiVo ? I'm not implying anything by this, other than caution, but this sort of low-rent money-grabbing trick has been the action of last-resort by an awful lot of cash-strapped dot-coms lately.
Tivo made the thing so you had to call in *ON PURPOSE* so they could do just this sort of thing -- remember *TIVO NEEDS PEOPLE TO CALL IN* so they can download the statistical info your tivo is quietly collecting about you.
All you were entitled to when you purchased the box was what came with it
Thats exactly right! And this "upgrade" disabled some features that the equiptment had when they originally purchased it! Thats fraud if I ever heard it.
And the last thing -- even *IF* you were using prescious tivo phone bandwidth/resources by calling in when your not a subscriber -- how again does that entitle tivo to break your hardware in order to get you to pay ?
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
And now they are telling us that this was a mistake because their customers are making noise... Tsk Tsk!
More
I think we should all give mad props to Tivvo for responding so quickly to the vitriol we dealt them yesterday. I don't think Linus has a turn around time thats this fast.
i don't care if they are just bowing to the grumblings of slashdot at least they heard us, and quick too.
-
How about free over my cable service? In San Francisco, AT&T cable service provides complete listings of all channels, and is completely browsable. And before you go moaning about how I'm paying for cable service (well, I'm not paying for cable, I use an antenna, but back home at my parents' place, they have cable), what the hell is the point of a Tivo if you don't have cable? A VCR is more than adequate if all you want to record is Star Trek: TNG every night, because you missed out on getting a complete collection back when it was originally airing.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Net loss last quarter: $49 million.
Net loss a year ago last quarter: $23 million.
Cash and equivalents last quarter: $72.7 million.
Cash and equivalents a year ago last quarter: $124.5 million.
So, even assuming that their burn rate does not increase (though, the current trend is doubling from last year to this), they'll be broke by next January. Hmm, right about the same time as Webvan.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Jeez, I hope your 6 year old understands that if he dials 911 on that phone he will be connected to an emergency operator.
Mabye I can build my own Tivo. Does anybody know how to setup a linux box to function like a tivo? (Matrox card?)
It is very easy to put the hardware together. A Celeron/Duron in the 600Mhz area, motherboard (with integrated sound/video), 128 MB RAM, a DvD drive, 20 GB Hard Drive, wireless keyboard/mouse, speakers and a TV tuner card with s-video out. If you shop hard you can assemble this for $500-$600. Both Windows and Linux has software which allows you to record off of the TV Card, but if you want to be able to watch TV and record something else, you will need to purchase two TV cards. At that point all you need is someone to write a program which will download the TV listings from TVGuide.com, search the listing for the shows you want and setup a scheduler program to record the show.
Of course it might be worth it to wait and see if any other companies decide to start making TiVO like devices to sell as hardware only, no service at all, but will cost more like $500 rather than TiVO's $300, in order to make money on the hardware. I am a happy TiVO subscriber, but I'd still buy one of these hardware only boxes if someone would put one out.
Jesus died for sombodies sins, but not mine.
"Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
-Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development
I've been wanting to get a Tivo, but I've been holding off. I probably wont be a subscriber because I just dont watch that much TV.
If the new Tivos wont let you record, and they pop-up nag screens to get you to subscribe- what the hell good are they?(to a non subscriber) What do they actually let you do without a subscription...
Mabye I can build my own Tivo. Does anybody know how to setup a linux box to function like a tivo? (Matrox card?)
TiVo subsidizes the hardware. The people who bought a unit and are not subscribing received their unit at a cheaper price because of TiVo.
You paid the hardware vendor, not TiVo. The only way they make money is through subscriptions.
1) RB wrote the exact same thing in the forums over a week ago.
2) This problem didn't exist until recently - certainly not 6 months ago (before 2.01 existed). It wasn't until 'the rest' of the TiVos got upgraded in the last few weeks that the problem popped up.
Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
No. Customers without service have not paid TiVo a dime. TiVo has PAID THEM, indirectly, through Philips or Sony.
Well, not exactly true. Even though the non-subscribers weren't paying TiVo directly, TiVo was downloading their daily viewing habits to the second. This information is very valuable; in fact TiVo's latest SEC filing indicates that this is a good source of revenue to them.
I just went to TiVo's webpage and there is no mention of this "Richard Bullwinkle". Who is this guy? Why does everyone believe that this response is the "official" response? If it is the official response, how come there is no mention of it on the TiVo webpages?
Where can I get TV listings in a machine-readable format (easy to parse) ?
Now all these people get pissed off that Tivo changed things!! WTF did you think the phone line was for?
Bitch all you want, Tivo may have made a mistake, but they are letting you have a free ride they don't have any obligation to give you.
Never criticise someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes.
Here are some items to ponder:
Now, in return for updating the clock, Joe Unsub is giving TiVo fine-grained viewing information at his own cost (of the call).
Who's the leach now?
Before you start bitching about things you don't know about, take the time to think a little. They are not letting you have a free ride.
How nice, just enough time for the non-subscribers to get sick of a non-functioning tivo and subscribe. This gets me thinking. What happens to my Tivo box if tivo goes belly up?
www.bleepyou.com
Yes, I read the article. Notice that the author still indicates that the company intended to reduce functionality of those devices that are not partaking of the subscription services. Now, admittedly, if this functionality is part of the subscription, then fine, reduce away. Otherwise, it would appear to me that the company is trying to steer owners to the subscription service in a rather heavy-handed way. I think, if I owned one of these things, I would hack hell out of it to get away from the TiVo company...or I'd just ante up for the subscription.
Personally, why watch so much TV in the first place? You guys should be coding.
What'dya mean there's no BLINK tag!?
...that any application of hardware that THEY built should be sanctioned and controlled by THEM. These people think they still own the boxes, even after you've plunked over your money and taken the box home. It's not uncommon in the technology world, just look at Microsoft's attempt to foist XP on the world. What's particularly funny about it, is that OTHER industries seem to want to drop their products like a hot rock as soon as the merchandise is off the sales floor. Have you ever tried to complain about defects that appear in your car after the warranty is expired? What about return a stereo component or video camera? I think the difference here is that companies that actually have CONTENT to provide confuse their content with the medium used to provide it. (Of course, Microsoft only THINKS they have content to provide, TiVo might actually have some.)
What'dya mean there's no BLINK tag!?
Don't like the fact that 2001 Ford Mustang isn't as quick as the 1999 model? Ford doesn't care. Hate the way the new IE update takes over your PC? MS doesnt care. Dont like the fact that the Tivo upgrade broke your non-subscribed box? They fix it!
D
Mad Scientists with too much time on thier hands
The first, last, and only tech news site on the net
What everyone is failing to realize is that TiVO spends a lot of time in developing this software. Now, they are assuming that the users that aren't paying for the subscription also aren't using their network and bandwidth to dial into. There isn't anything that says once you purchase one of these that you are entitled to free software upgrades for the rest of your life. So why is the damn thing even plugged into your phone line? Without paying you are tying up their phone lines, which costs real money; using their bandwidth, which costs real money; and you are using their servers, which cost real money. All you were entitled to when you purchased the box was what came with it. Anything beyond that is just whipped cream on top. So your getting free software upgrades, which I would assume they would stop for those that aren't paying for the service. Would that make everyone happier? No, now they whine and moan because they don't get the software upgrades for free. Everyone wants something for free, but who can aford to give everything away for free?
Revelations 0:0 - The begining of the end.
Yo, hook up a serial cable to the box and use the good old Linux "date" command, you never HAVE to call Tivo. How exactly are they going to "stick it to you" if you never call up????
OK, how about you try and downgrade a Redhat 7.1 box to 6.2 with a script??? The downgrade has to be done over a phone line and cannot have ANY human interaction, and it HAS to work thousands of times with absolutely no hicups.
Hmmm sounds really easy to me, especially if they modified their filesystem code.
You don't even need that, all you need to do is to select the "perform test call" from the menu. It sync's your time, and it DOESN'T update any software.
If you want to take Tivo completely out of the picture, you can use the serial port on the back and using a terminal program set the time manually using Linux "date". You never HAVE to call Tivo or any other service.
I'm getting pretty tired of people promulgating this false information. Tivo makes money by selling subscriptions and selling statistics on your viewing habits. That is why TiVo has non-subscribers call in. This set your clock crap is just that... crap. Tivo is not going to continue to absorb costs just to keep the clock on your TiVo box up to date. There is no reason TiVo couldn't send down a version of the software that allowed users to easily set their own clock (without going through some back door) and stopped costing them money for connecting to their service. Your TiVo connects to the TiVo service every night because it gives TiVo information that is worth more to them than the cost of the connection.
Let's see what does a non-subscribed TiVo unit allow you to do that justifies it costing more than a regular VCR:
There's more to having a TiVo than data mining channel listings.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
You are right though, they can't easily stick it to you if you never call up. Though I also understand that the TiVo needs to make one "test call" before it is first used.
When (if) I get a TiVo, I think I'm going to take the "void your warranty" risk and backup the initial drive image. That way I always have a fallback if they decide to screw the consumer again. (of course I had better get a TiVo soon before the only ones available are those shipping with 2.0.1)
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
No, not a coincidence. If TiVo did as you said, and subsidized $200 to buy the box and you then paid $200 for a lifetime subscription, then TiVo operated at a loss. If they are still subsidizing $200 for the purchase of a box and it costs $250 for a lifetime membership, they may still be operating at a loss.
If you would read their SEC filing, they have entered into agreements with several partners (most notably Quantum) to share a portion of their revenue from subscriptions in exchange for perks (i.e. Quantum selling the hard drives to TiVo device manufacturers dirt cheap).
TiVo has played the necessary dirty games to become the only player on the block (sorry, Replay is just not a viable competitor right now) but it cost them a lot of money. One reason to support the unsubs is that TiVo could go belly up, and then you'd be dependent on the subscription structure of another company looking to recoup the costs of buying out TiVo *and* turn a profit, or you could use the setup that the unsubs fought for.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
I refer you to this post: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=01/06/08/12322 50&cid=70
I just don't get it. You buy the Tivo from Philips, and then you hook it up to a phone line for a free time/update service that Tivo provides.
Now all these people get pissed off that Tivo changed things!! WTF did you think the phone line was for?
Bitch all you want, Tivo may have made a mistake, but they are letting you have a free ride they don't have any obligation to give you.
If I owned a Tivo, I would just have purchase the $200 lifetime subscription upfront and been done with it. Or hacked it and not used their free time server.
You all sound like a bunch of fucking whiny kids that can't handle a couple months without TV.
There are alternatives, you know. A conventional VCR will work just fine. Side note: When reading these stories, I went to Amazon.com to see how much people liked their Tivos and its like freaking testimonials..."It has revolutionized my life..." Have these people never heard of VCRs?
Another Sackless AC jerk, who will not take responsibility for his opinions, speaks his useless empty mind.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Actually it is, quite insightful and I respect him for his opinion, despite the fact that it is counter to the common opinion. BTW Next time,POST with name you Sackless Moron.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Throughout these discussions I keep thinking to myself, whats the issue here? I do not Own a Tivo yet, frankly I just can't afford it right now, but its a great concept. I have to agree with the NON-subscribers, if all they want to use it as is a VCR with lots of storage space, whats the issue here. Well i think back to my days as an electronics store salesman, and then a Store manger or Babbage's software and I realize the Tivo point of view. They are Probably not making any money off selling the unit, they sell the equipment at a loss, and make the money on the services. The same is true of Nintendo, Sony, ETC. They don't make Money on the game system, infact when the systems first launch they even loose money(When the N64 was launched it was sold for approx $50 less than it cost to manufacter them). I reason this out because if I were to build a machine with the same capabilities as a Tivo myself sort of using used parts I don't think I could assemble it at that price. I have heard people propose the thought of doing just this righting an Open source Tivo alike system, pulling the data from the internet someplace. Or reverse engineerig the TIVO hardware and wrtting a new OS for it basically, that replicates the same features that are now gone, changed or otherwise not the way they used to be. These might be good alernatives, but you have to wonder why no one has persued them yet.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
My problem is people who will not stand up for their own opinions, and post anonymously!
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Tivo did change their SOFTWARE, as they reserve the right to do (it's in the user manual).
In any case, your argument makes no sense. They admit it was a MISTAKE. An overlooked side effect of new code intended for new machines. You say it makes no sense because they should think about lost sales from word of mouth, but how do you plan for word of mouth for a mistake you didn't know you'd made?
Is Tivo really the first software company ever to make a mistake in a release?
The users left their Tivo connected to a phone line so it could dial in and set it's clock. It does that daily. It doesn't get program guide information in these calls, but it DOES get upgrades (apparently).
Ok, so it's pretty slow at work and maybe I'm spending too much time on Slashdot. Point taken. Thanks.
Since Tivo makes money only on the subscription, why are you surprised that they'd want a subscription-only model?
I've seen very few people make real cases for buying a Tivo without the service. The service is what makes Tivo great. Without it, it's a pretty expensive VCR. I believe someone said that some other company will be selling digital VCRs that allow simply manual recording with no service in the future. Those people who only want that are encouraged to go that way. Tivo is about the service, and how it changes your Television viewing.
On the other hand, I'm sure I'm not the only one here with a closet full of electronics that don't have their full functionality anymore. I had an 8-track recorder. Seen any blank 8-tracks for sale lately? For that matter, blank Beta tapes aren't easy to find, nor new software for my Commodore 64.
It shouldn't be the consumers fault that Tivo feels the need to sell things below cost. I don't know why they are doing that anyway, when laser disc and DVD players came out they were well over $500, if not over $1000 or $1500, but they still managed to sell thousands of players even before the price came down. I think people would be willing to pay more for the device up front and not feel like they need to support Tivo like some kind of charity.
Tivo doesn't give the customer a "free ride" as you call it. People still spent several hundred dollars for the hardware and expected it to work a certain way. My VCR doesn't spontaneously re-wire itself to make it harder for me to use it, if it did I'd be damn pissed. People like you can whine all you want that Tivo doesn't make money on the units, just the subscriptions, well until they start paying people to take the damn recorders that argument doesn't work. The customers who bought a Tivo are not responsible for propping up a shitty business model that is obviously losing Tivo a lot of cash.
Since a lot of people only want to be able to set their clock, it shouldn't be too hard to offer a dial up service that does this at a cost of about $1 per year.
It got worse though. It decided to move away from its seat under the telly, and sit in MY chair. I only have the one. I have to sit under the telly. I can't even see the thing from there.
It gets worrse. I've recently been getting suspicious that my Tivo is making arrangements with my landlord to buy the buolding I live in. I think its trying to evict me.
I hope this serves as a warning to all potential TiVO buyers - Make sure you remain in control.
I know some of the technology/car comparisons are a bit silly and overblown, but DO imagine a car that suddenly won't work, and the fix isn't due for 3 months.
... I own a 2000 Ford Explorer.
I don't need to imagine anything
"And like that
According to the "official response" the reason was:
How did this happen? Well, frankly, we don't usually really concentrate very much on the User Experience for non-subscribers. We did successfully anticipate that non-subscribers would care about manual recordings and we put a lot of effort into engineering and testing a grandfathered state - it is especially ironic that because we spent all our non-service testing effort on insuring that we preserved manual recordings that we failed to discover the other change
Which makes sense. They get money from the services, not hardware.
Check out Althea for a stable IMAP email client for X. Now with SSL!
Yeah right.
Hey Tivo users, watch me pull my foot out of my mouth!
Never thought to test this stuff out before general distribution?
It does make one wonder if there were deeper intentions (e.g. getting people to re-subscribe if they want some features back)
Don't pick up the pho*(@)$*@&@!@ NO CARRIER
I think a week is generous. It is rather lucky it's rerun season, or people would be screaming much louder....
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
We hope this quick response will assure you that we did not intend to change your experience as a non-subscriber, and that we take your concerns very seriously.
If I owned one of these things, I'd be returning it a la the Discount Tire commercial, where the old lady 'brings back' the tire when unsatisfied by throwing it through their front window.
I know some of the technology/car comparisons are a bit silly and overblown, but DO imagine a car that suddenly won't work, and the fix isn't due for 3 months.
It should be no more than a week to get a version of 1.3 into the hands of everyone who wants it.
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
Is more than just the hardware. It's the service. I love having a TiVo. Without TiVo service, it's just a VCR with a few refinements. With TiVo service, well, those not subscribed to TiVo service are missing out on a great deal of functionality.
But you don't want to pay for information that is free over the internet? It's not free in the first place. Most sites offering TV listings want some personal information and you have to deal with advertising. You pay for the listings in your paper when you buy the paper. The listings in the paper contain advertisments. For what, $10 a month TiVo delivers full listings to your TiVo unit, no adds, all sorted according to the TV service in your area.
When it's just one area, it's still alot of information. How many shows does just one TV station run in a week? Well, there are 336 30 minute time slots in a 7 day period. With 10 brodcast channels that's 3360 30 minutes time slots. With cable, well...that's a hell of a lot of information, and it all has to be localized, put into a format so that your TiVo canuse it, delivered via dialup...
It's a service. If you want it to be free, go set it up yourself. When you're finished, you see if you want to offer it for free.
If you're using a TiVo without a subscription, relize that your are not TiVo's primiary consern because you are not generating any revenue for them. TiVo already profited from your unit before your bought it. TiVo is being rather generous letting you upgrade at no cost, IMHO.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
A bit off topic from the conversation, I would just like to state that i LOVE MY TIVO. The hard drive died 3 weeks ago, and I had to spend 100 extra dollars, on top of the 450 buck unit, and the 200 lifetime service to get it fixed, damn cheap ass hard drive in it had a head crash *(clickity click click) I have now been 3 weeks without it. I cannot tell you how much TV i have missed, maybe thats good... I have the direcTV model, and I want everyone to know, you NEED TIVO. Even if you think you will do it with digital VCR software on your box, dont bother. The set top functionality of Tivo means you will use it every day, blah blah blah, jesus, I sound like a salesman for tivo. When you buy the tivo, get the service. If you are too cheap or poor to pay for the service, get your pc box set up with some digital vcr type software, and do it that way. THe tivo was designed for the service. I will say I do not agree with them downgrading the machine capabilities, but they seem to be responding appropriately to their customers in response to this. I lost my point to this post, shit happens. blame it on the beer, and have a great f.in night there cheap ones. keith
I fully agree, they don't own the machine after you buy it. However they are fully within their rights to change the software that drives it.
You don't have to upgrade if you don't use their service (I don't even know if you must if you do)
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Tivo's lack of 30 second skip removes 60% of the reason to buy one. As does the closed nature of the box. It is not possible to move data from one Tivo device to another via wireless ethernet, it is not even possible to add extra drives to the box - not without inordinate hassle.
Tivo will die, good riddance. They will be replaced by cheap commodity appliances from manufacturers that do not charge inflated subscription fees, or by better TV tuner card software for PCs. Why do people who would never buy a crippleware 'email appliance' leap to the defence of the grasping business model of Tivo?
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
I think AOL has proven that they are in control of their troll users horizontal and vertical....
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
Wrong again. Tivo pays far more in subsidies to the manufacturers than any license fee would be.
"If there is nothing you are willing to die for, then you are not really alive." Myself
If TiVo is interested in truly correcting this, they should provide a minor upgrade so we don't have to wait until September.
Another way to provide all the functionality we had before is to give free service until the upgrade is ready. Who knows, maybe a few months of service will be enough to convert some of us non-subcribers.
"That trick never works. Try pulling a 'hare' out of your arse instead"
Sorry for being OT.
More to come in a few days...... How To Hack Your TiVo What we started with Phillips TiVo model number HDR312 (30 hours basic) A strong desire to get more record time. Fantastic resources at the AVS Forum . Specifically, the post 'how to upgrade your TiVo yourself' . What we ended up with TiVo with 68 hours basic storage. Great joy. Intense appreciation for the smart folks at the AVS Forum. Things we used to get the job done Quantum lct10 30 gig drive (part number QML30000LB-A). Cost: $128 (check Price Watch ). torx driver (a screw driver with the small star-pattern head) Cost: we had one already. another linux machine, with an IDE chain (couldn't use my laptop). Cost: we had one already. 2.4.0-test1 kernel. Cost: free. TiVo kernel patches. Cost: free. patched version of pdisk. Cost: free. 9-pin female to 9-pin female null modem adapter. Cost: $12 at Best Buy. 1 sheet of aluminum. Cost: $4 at Home Depot. 4 long screws with lock washers and nuts. Cost: $2 at Home Depot. 4 rubber bumpers. Cost: $2 at Home Depot. 4 harddrive screws. Cost: we already had them. 2 case screws. Cost: we already had them. drill & metal drill-bits. Cost: we already had them. tin snips: Cost: $10 Total cost: about $158. What we did First, ordered the Quantum drive. Unearthed a SCSI-booting test machine (my poor little 486) Downloaded the linux-2.4.0-test1 kernel. Downloaded the TiVo Mac-partition patches and the patched version of pdisk . (Also checked at wasteland.org or source forge .)
Un-gzip/tar'd the files into the linux-2.4.0 tree.
Compiled the kernel. Was sure we had IDE support and "macintosh partition table" support.
Got the kernel booting on the test machine.
Configured our TiVo to NOT use the serial port. We told it to use the IR to control the DSS receiver.
Opened up the TiVo . This voided our warrenty. For us, we needed a torx driver.
Made sure our TiVo had only one drive.
Took out the primary ("A") drive. This took removing two screws near the front, and then lifting and sliding the drive back off the rear clips .
Set the new ("B") drive to "slave". Ours shipped in "master" (.8:: so we moved the jumper as shown on the top of the drive to "slave" (.::8 .
Mounted both drives on the secondary IDE chain. Our IDE cable was bad, so we had to replace ours.
Booted the linux machine with byte swapping enabled for both drives. I used 'append="hdc=bswap hdd=bswap"' in my /etc/lilo.conf. We could type "hdc=bswap hdd=bswap" on the LILO prompt, too. I used the secondary IDE chain, so my drives were hdc and hdd. If we used the primary IDE chain, we'd have hda and hdb. So for us, drive A was hdc and drive B was hdd.
On boot-up, we saw both quantum drives, and for drive A, there were 11 mac partitions.
Mounted the 4th partition. ("mount /dev/hdc4 /mnt")
Saved a copy of /mnt/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit. ("cp /mnt/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit /mnt/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit.old")
Edited /mnt/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit. Found the place in the script where we saw the variable "shondss". There was be a line running "bash" into and out of the serial port just below there. We copied this line and placed it just before the entire "if" clause.
Blanked out the first few sectors of the B drive. We made SURE we weren't destroying the original TiVo drive! ("dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hdd bs=512 count=32")
Shutdown the linux box, and put both the hard drives back in the TiVo. We needed to carefully cut the zip-tie holding the extra power connector down inside the TiVo.
Turned on the linux box again, and loaded "minicom" on /dev/ttyS0. Set the configuration parameters to 9600, 8N1, turned off flow control, and turned off DCD support.
Plugged the TiVo serial cable into the null modem adapter, and the adapter into the linux box's first serial port.
Powered on the TiVo (staying clear of the unshielded power supply ).
Around the "please wait a few more seconds" screen, we saw the "bash" prompt show up in minicom.
Initialized the bootpage of the new drive. ("/sbin/bootpage -D /dev/hdb; sync").
Shutdown the linux box, unplugged the TiVo, took out the B drive, switched it back to "master", put it in the linux box, and powered the linux box back on.
Set up the partition table on the drive. (Ran "pdisk /dev/hdc" and typed:
i
w
y
q
).
Set up the Mac partitions on the drive. (Ran "pdisk -d /dev/hdc" and typed:
C 2p 4M "Second MFS application region" MFS
C 3p 3p "Second MFS media region" MFS
x
m
3
x
w
y
q
).
Shutdown the Linux box, took out the drive, set the jumper back to "slave", put it back in the TiVo, turned on the linux box, got back into "minicom", and then plugged in the TiVo.
Once we had the "bash" prompt back, we needed to mount the TiVo diagnostics partition. ("mount -t ext2 -o ro /dev/hda7 /mnt").
Set up the magic for the new drive. ("/mnt/diag/genAddDiskTiVoID /dev/hdb3").
Unmounted the diag partition. ("umount /mnt").
Rebooted the TiVo.
Examined our system information . We now had "68 hours" available.
To get the TiVo serial port back to normal, we powered off the TiVo, put drive A in the linux machine, mounted hdc4, and copied back the saved version of rc.sysinit, shutdown the linux machine, and moved the drive back to the TiVo.
Now for the mounting hardware . We cut two sheets out of our sheet metal. One the size of the harddrive , but with about half an inch extra on either side. Then another sheet to cover the hole where the second drive should be mounted.
We drilled four holes in the drive sheet for mounting the drive, and four more holes in the outside corners for the rubber bumpers.
We drilled two holes in the other sheet to mount it in the TiVo case, and for hole lined up with the four outside corner holes in the drive sheet.
We cut the rubber bumpers down to about 3/4 of a inch in height, and then drilled a hole vertically through the center.
We mounted the drive to the drive sheet, and then the TiVo case sheet to the drive sheet with the rubber bumpers in between. The rubber bumbers were screwed in place with 4 long screws with a lock washer and nut.
We mounted the entire assembly in the TiVo case with the 2 case screws. We tried to get the case sheet to hook around the rear clips, but we didn't have enough sheet metal hanging over. Maybe next time. I hope i killed all the live links if not sorry....Enjoy there is more to come.......