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Ethically Monitoring Your Kid's Net Access
"She will be using a Mac, so I s'pose Apple's KidSafe is an option, but I'm not really keen on the concept - seems a little too limiting - kinda like going to the library and only having access to the encyclopedias. Any ideas?"
Jamie wanted to add a few comments:
Yes, KidSafe is a whitelist. Basically you'd be allowing access only to a carefully chosen, tiny fraction of the web. It's exactly like going to the library and only being able to look at the reference section.
If that's what you want and that's all your child is ready for, I can't see any problem with this. It's honest because everybody knows what they're getting. When they want out of the sandbox, they'll let you know.
Here are my suggested rules of the road for kids on the internet, basically a 21st century version of "don't take candy from strangers." What do I have wrong, or what did I forget?
For parents:
* Put the family computer in a family room.
* Be prepared for freaky questions about things seen online -- and let kids know they can ask about anything they see.
* Be prepared in case you learn they are looking at things they shouldn't. Not that this will necessarily happen. But if it does, your gut reaction may not be appropriate -- consider what you'll say.
* Along with that annoying "what'd you do in school today?", try the equally annoying "what'd you find on the internet today?"
* If you use spyware to keep track of what your kids are viewing, let them know. If you don't, let them know you trust them! This is a trust step like the first time they ride a bike past the driveway, or spend overnight at a friend's house. It's your judgement when they're ready.
For kids:
* When you chat online, you don't know who's on the other end. Even if you've talked with them for a year, you still don't know!
* A rule: never type your last name or your city. (First name and state are OK.) Or, make up a fake name, that can be "who you are" online!
* A very important safety rule: meeting online strangers may be allowed (but mom or dad will be coming along). If kids promise to ask, parents promise to talk it over.
* When you're looking for something, use the Google search engine. (Among its other benefits, it's the most kid-friendly.) Always start your search with at least three words. Any fewer, and you're probably just wasting your time. Parents can help you learn how to pick three good words.
The most important lesson you can teach a new Net user, regardless of their age, is that the Net is real. Things you do on the Net have real consequences. The people you talk to on the Net may be lying about themselves, but they are real people. It is not a toy or a role-playing game, although just like any other part of the real world, the Net *includes* toys and role-playing games.
"Safety" tips like "never reveal your real last name!" encourage the belief that the Net is somehow separate from and less real than the rest of the world. In the long run, this is an extremely dangerous attitude to teach to Net users. The Net is unsafe partly because people think that's a good safety idea. Do not do it. Anonymity has its place but should not be the automatic default.
Fully conscious of the irony of posting this as an AC - actually, my real name is Matthew Skala, I'm located in Victoria, British Columbia, and I'm posting as an AC only because I object to being forced to create an account. I fully expect that it'll never be modded high enough for anyone to read, but that's part of the price of my own safety policy.
... and make sure you do it with this really threatening 1984 look when you say it... "we KNOW where you're going."
:)
My step-daughter is almost 11 and, though she's only with her mother and me every other weekend
By my standards this would qualify as a total wreck of a family, and accessibility of the Internet would be the least problem for the daughter.
Then again, I am not American.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Put your computer in the living room, or within eye/earshot of it. That way everyone who is in the living room will be potentially looking over her shoulder, a great incentive to not visit anything that would draw attention to her.
Would you let an 11 year old run around in the worlds biggest porn shop with people who regularly abduct children and plenty of other nasty things? Of course not... the internet is the same thing.
you are missing an absolutely critical distinction: nobody can abduct, or even touch, your child via the network. A second distinction to be made is that not all of the net is pr0n. Comparing the net to a giant pr0n shop is like saying that the entire world is one because you could always walk from the public library to the red light district and buy yourself a dildo. Just as in meatspace, you have to go there of your own volition. It's just easier to get there, that's all.
Especially because she's only with them for a couple days they need to let go a little. It's all too easy to think, well, we only have her two days every other week -- then for those two days she's ALL OURS. But that's a messed up way to think about it -- she isn't anyone's, she's herself, she needs some control over her life... like having some input as to what she does from moment to moment, and who she does it with.
This reminds me of the free speech notion -- that by being too restrictive of unprotected speech you can have a chilling effect on protected free speech. Similarly, by being to intrusive about inappropriate material, you can have a chilling effect on a child's curiosity about appropriate but -- to the child -- mysterious material.
> > > My step-daughter is almost 11 and, though she's only with her mother and
> > > me every other weekend
> > By my standards this would qualify as a total wreck of a family, and
> > accessibility of the Internet would be the least problem for the daughter.
> > Then again, I am not American.
> What an interesting, ignorant thing to say, you Non-American, you.
I can only assume the guy with three ">"s didn't notice the "step-" in
"step-daughter". Divorce is pretty common in most western countries now.
What's more worrying is that the mother and stepfather don't seem to trust
the father (who I assume to be the guardian most of the time) to take charge
of supervising the child's internet usage.
--
The difference is that it isn't the government that is doing the censoring. It's perfectly legal for private citizens to say, "I will not play that filth in my movie theater," or for stores to say, "I will not sell violent video games."
Believe it or not most people (the customers) think that NC-17 rated films shouldn't be shown in "decent" movie theaters. Disney and the rest of the movie producers know this, and so they throw their weight around to guarantee that the truly adult movies stay where only adults are likely to go. The government is not involved at all. They don't rate the shows, and they don't enforce the ratings. The fact of the matter is that the MPAA has just as much freedom to say "this movie is indecent" as you have to make (and watch) movies that are indecent. However, since you don't own any movie theaters (I imagine) you can't force the theater owner to show the kind of movies you would like to see. It's his theater, and he will do as he pleases. This undoubtedly means that he will kowtow the MPAA line (because this is the most lucrative path), but that doesn't make it a free speech issue.
Remember children, it doesn't have anything to do with "freedom of speech" unless the government is involved. On my property I make the rules as to what is "proper" speech, and if you don't like it you can leave.
Exactly, censorship is dangerous in the same way that prohibition was. You can't make people do the "right" thing. Trying to force people to make intelligent choices only makes things worse.
However, this does not mean that alcohol isn't the root of a great deal of the more serious problems in the U.S., and it also doesn't mean that pornography is harmless. Some people can handle it, but many people only think that they can handle it.
In other words, I don't want the government to try and save me and my children, but I don't believe the media either when they try to tell me that pornography isn't harmful. It certainly is harmful, but the only thing that I can do about it is stay away from it myself, and try and keep its influence from my family. When we try and force others (even if we are right) we only make things worse.
My guess is that the reason your parents trust you is that you are trustworthy. I would also bet that either your parents are extremely naive (and lucky), or that you had already shown them from your actions that you could be trusted. My parents never followed me around making sure that I didn't do drugs, or what have you, because I showed them that I was trustworthy. I followed the rules they set, I tried to stay out of trouble, and I was respectful (for the most part).
Most kids that complain about parental controls do so because they are not trustworthy. The real reason that they complain is that their parents are cramping their style. They want their parents to "trust" them, but only because it would give them an opportunity to do something they have been forbidden to do.
So yes, how you react most definitely depends on the child. And sometimes there literally is nothing you can do. Some children turn out great no matter how stupid the parents are, and some children screw up no matter how much you love them and care for them. That's why having the government get involved with raising children is such a bad idea. Children are individuals, and need individual care.
No, the original poster has hit the nail square on the head. Keeping a record of where the child surfed is far better than simply signing up with some CyberPatrol. First of all you get to decide what is appropriate or not for your own children (instead of relying on someone else). Besides, squid at leats gives the child the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't block web sites (unless you tell it to) it merely logs where you have been without blocking off potentially useful parts of the web. It allows you and your child to decide together what is appropriate and what is not.
Parents should know where there children are surfing. The Internet is a fabulous tool, but it is far from benign. If you think that everything out there on the Internet is suitable for 11 year olds, then I pray you never have children.
Kids are going to see and hear scary things, confusing things, dangerous things, whether they use the Internet or not. The important thing is (a) that they feel that they can talk to you, and (b) that you feel that you can talk to them.
You can probably make kids feel like they can talk to you by listening to them, even when they want to talk about boring or ridiculous things. Probably telling them that "You can talk to me." doesn't really work. In fact, if you have to say that it probably isn't true. See also part (b).
b: You have to be willing to talk to your kids honestly. This means being willing to talk about stuff that you would normally avoid talking about to anyone, because it disgusts you or scares you, or because you feel guilty about it or whatever. That's hard, but very important.
Just to re-iterate: trying to prevent your kids from seeing and hearing objectionable or problematic things is a lose. First of all, it won't work, even if you throw all of the computers out of your house. But more importantly, trying to do that is a crutch to lean on instead of doing something that you need to do anyway: talk, and listen, to your children.
Regards,
Zooko
You could easily monitor what she's looking at. Going thru the logs, or by some other mechanism. There are plenty of solutions.
But would you really want to ? You realize that the this is indifferent to monitoring (and recording) her phone calls, or placing a microphone on her and following her daily conversations with friends.
You would effectively be spying on your kid.
As a responsible parent (easy for me to say as I don't - to the best of my knowledge - have kids), of course you're interested in what goes on in her life. But don't cross the line.
Having the computer in a "family room" is probably a good idea if you're seriously worried that she will use it for something that would pose a problem if she could use it in full privacy.
Handle this, as you handle the other worries. What if she makes some poor friends that tries to get her into something you wouldn't approve of ? Do you seriously bug her and listen to her conversations ? No, I didn't think so either.
Try something: have conversations. Eat together, the family dinner is a great time for talking about what goes on in the lives of the family members. Move the TV out of the kitchen and spend a little time together.
Do you keep her from watching TV ? Or going to a theater ? There are few things you will find on the net that you won't see every day in TV. goatse.cx is no exception.
I'd let them know the computer stays in a public area, and I'm liable to watch everything they do.
And then sit down and watch them.
-----------------------------
That is, agree with what is considered ethical hacking in your own house since that's what you'll be doing. Many people here have stated the obvious: central location, proxy servers, web logs, firewalls and the like. If you put a broadband connection in someone's bedroom and let them have at it w/o restraint then all your agreements will probably go out the window. OTOH hand if you agree what is permissible behavior and demonstrate that you're willing to follow through then you're more than halfway there. The last thing I'd mention is that there is some threshold for tolerance as well. That is, you should allow for a passing grade not a binary pass/fail. There are always a few places that neither of you really know about and someone is going to stumble on accidently or with no particular intent - sometimes you have to give a pass. If not then you're doomed to failure because your standard will be impossible to meet. Unplug the net and give them restricted AOL instead.
whatever man. At that age, I really didn't want to spend time w/my parents. I wanted to hang out w/my friends or be by myself and do my own thing. My parents (my father especially) was always willing to spend time w/me and do things w/me, but I was the one that didn't want to do it.
.02
My parents checked through the HD everyday looking for jpg, gif, etc. I just made sure to rename all the files something that they wouldn't look for.
Honestly, if they want to do something, they are going to do it. It's like smoking pot. If they want to get high and they don't want to get caught, they are going to be smart enough about it to make sure you never find out.
I say let them surf the web w/o hindering them. Most kids aren't going to just "stumble" across offensive material and I have yet to have someone just hop on IM and message me dirty stuff (although I suggest having her check "male" as her sex -- you are less likely to have teenage boys messaging her)
That's my worthless
Transparency of access AND monitoring is the only ethical and effective answer here. And those are the things you're really after:
- effective transparent access
- ethical transparent monitoring
RalfThe trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
-Bertrand Russel
As a parent, I fought over the moral dilemma surrounding censorware. In the end the only choice really was to introduce the kids to the net one on one. This is why:
As a child I did not have a lot of parental supervision, so my morals and ethics came from others in the community. For a lot of kids this does not work well, for me it turned out ok. All depends on who you start relating to early on in life.
So basically what I am saying is that kids will get their core set of social norms and values from some source somewhere. They basically need these things to grow mentally, and at some low level know that and seek out what they need.
Parents who do not try to provide these things are basically saying "go forth! find your way in the world, let me know what you found out!"
Looking back over my life, it is easy to see how easily things could have been much different. (for the worse...)
The problem with the Internet today is the body of knowledge and culture required to make sane judgements about the content. Getting facts is one thing, culture shock is another. Think about it a little. Some of the simplest humor on the internet is quite beyond the cultural experience of your typical 8-12 year old. Some well presented totally useless information can easily be taken as truth simply because it looks true!
Spending time on the net with your kids is vital! No software is going to be able to give kids what they need to understand the net for what it is. They need to look at it through your experience after all who better to learn with than with someone that saw the whole thing happen and got to grow with it.
So, as a parent you really have three basic choices.
1. Censor the net and send the message to your childeren that you are ignoring the basic issues, and they can figure things out later at their expense when they are older. They just might hate you for this later when they do understand things better and wonder why you never helped them.
2. Leave the net wide open and unattended and send the message that it is ok for them to look outside the family for their social norms. This one also has a lot to do with trust and could be ok for some kids, but probably not for a lot of them. Do you really trust your kids? Are their core values secure enough that you know they are going to ask you things and make good decisions? Do your kids have any sort of common sense? If you say no to any of these, better not let them use the net without help.
3. Use the net with them. This one sends the message that you want them to explore, but don't want them getting hurt in some way. You the parent are in control and this is important!
Your perspective as a parent on the net is very important espcially for this crowd! With all the companies fighting for your kids attention, what makes you think that they are going to learn what you want them to learn? Nothing! They are going to learn what others want them to learn, unless the parents are there to filter through the noise and explain what is going on.
No software will ever do this.
I want my kids to be able to make their place on the net and be comfortable with that; otherwise, their place will be chosen for them.
Blogging because I can...
Any other parents who have found a good solution for this?
The following solutions are good security practices, regardless of whether you have children to snoop on -- you can protect your internal MIS environment (yes, I know it's a household, but it still has MIS needs) from everything from script kiddies to ill-behaved Windows shares -- especially if you connect via broadband (Cable, DSL, etc.).
Every machine in your house should be sitting on a private network, with a box functioning as a firewall sitting between them and the 'net. Block all web traffic (there's only a half-dozen or so ports) from masquerading directly, and force them through a caching proxy. Then, you can simply inspect the proxy caches/logs to handle this issue; your surfing performance in general will improve as a result of doing the caching regardless of your interest in the logs.
You should also have your firewall log all the masqueraded connections -- again, this is a security measure regardless of whether you want to see if your kid is spending too much time playing EverQuest; it also will protect you from any trojaned apps that may be trying to "phone home" (you see a strange connection in the logs, and block the port).
Good security practices aren't hard, but they do take work. And there's no reason to think that you shouldn't be as/more careful at home (with stuff that's actually yours) as/than you are around the office.
MOO;IANAL.
MOO;IANAL.
There used to be a picture linked here.
IMHO, there is NO ethical way to monitor
another human being. Privacy in my world
comes ahead of security or well-being.
Would you read you child's mail, or
diary? Of course not, that would be a
gross violation of their privacy. Why then
do you feel in the right to read their other
communications with the world?
Now, if they come to you asking for money to
meet that nice guy they met in a chat room,
THEN it is your responsibility to step in and
explain right from wrong. And incidentally, aside
from them actually wanting to meet someone from
the net in person, there ain't much wrong they
can do on the net (assuming they don't know your
credit card number).
I'm 26. I am grateful to my parents for
not ever snooping on what I was doing when I was
growing up.
This way parents can give the child very free reign when they can be around to answer questions and deal with issues that may arise. If the parent can't pay close attention to what's going on for a while they can throw it to the more restrictive mode. Initally the filter may be really constricting but over time it would be very usable. Or maybe you start with a whitelist to bootstrap the filter.
---
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
It's popular with me. My kids know that our firewall keeps logs of everything. They also know that the browsers often keep an embarassing amount of history of what's been visited. Between keeping the computers in a family area (vital!!) and them knowing it is a privilege, not a right to use them, we are getting along quite well.
Well, apparently, you only have to fool the majority of people for a little while.
Let them do what they want online; in time, the smarter kids will still survive, having not met online pedophiles; and the stronger kids will have survived their meetings with the pedophiles. Natural selection will assure that in the future only quality kids will exist, since the weaker ones will die off know. ;)
Oh wait, ETHICALLY monitoring them?
Nevermind
-Leo
Reminds me of a story - (Not so OT.)
When Ghandi was alive, a mother came to see him, child in tow.
"Please tell my child not to eat sugar" the woman said.
Ghandi told the woman to come back in two weeks. Two weeks later, the woman brought her child again. Ghandi looks at the kid and says: "Don't eat sugar."
The woman is stunned. "That's it? I had to go for two weeks just for that?"
"You see," says Ghandi, "Two weeks ago, *I* ate sugar."
Sure, it's just a story and the attribution is probably wrong, but I think it says something worth considering.
I think that kids in general would be more effective at monitoring their parents' surfing habits than the opposite. Are you prepared to have your kids see everything that *you* look at on the web?
And all this talk about having your kids talk openly about what they look at on the web; Are you prepared to talk openly with them about every site or newsgroup you browse? If not, the kid will know that you are being one-sided and insincere. (Kids can *smell* insincerity, just as well as you can...)
IANAP -
Cheers,
Jim
MMDC.NET
-- My Weblog.
It seems to me that phrases like "protecting our children" or "shielding them" are misleading.
One thing children are constantly doing is learning. When they are at school, they are (hopefully) learning. When they are playing in the park, they are learning. When they are with their friends, they are learning. And when they are browsing the Internet, they are learning. What do you, as parents, want them to learn? It is the duty of the parents to guide them in their education.
To not allow children to view certain objectionable sites (or read objectionable magazines, or watch objectionable TV) is a good way to help them to not be distracted learning garbage instead of something valuable.
Joe Mainusch http://www.weber-amps.com
It is a parent's responsibility to protect their kids from potentially harmful material and influences. If your children have their own computers, these computers should have NO 'net access at all.
Forget censorware, proxies, etc; software solutions are unreliable. Have one central, easily monitored family computer with 'net access, and only let them use it when you can sit there with them to monitor, guide, and teach.
Dear Will, the plums were poisoned. -- Cheese Club
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
Good reply. Here on /. and the 'net in general, Americans (USians. Can't say I've noticed with Canadians) we get a lot of shit when it comes to not recognizing other cultural norms and standards. Yet when it is turned the other way, it's all right for Europeans, Africans, Asians, etc. to slag on us because we are different.
Same thing I experienced in college with women's (or in some cases wymyn's) groups, African American groups, Asian American groups, etc. It was okay to slag the white protestant male for his barbaric, stereotypical views, but Gaya forbid it worked the other way around.
IOW, all American, white, Protestant males were/are racist, elitist, misogynist scum. But everyone in our group is an individual.
As to the original question: you are the warden, not the child's best friend. I like playing with my son, but that's not the duty I undertook (I think that was five minutes of rollicking good fun;)
FWIW, did anyone consider that asking how to monitor computer use in June, as school is letting out a bit stupid? What kind of kids are you raising who would rather veg in front of the TV/computer than go outside and go swimming, ride bikes, etc, etc, etc.?
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
While this is one form of 'Security through Obscurity' that I would support as a parent, I feel that in general, encouraging anonymity while at the same time warning against it smells of hypocracy. And I'm just a 29 yr old future parent..kids will pick up on it right away.
It's unfortunate that you have to protect your identity online, but what good is a global community of total strangers?
--
--
My comments and opinions completely reflect those of anyone and anything I am remotely associated with.
"although I suggest having her check "male" as her sex -- you are less likely to have teenage boys messaging her"
;)
It's not the teenage boys that you have to worry about, it's the 40 year old guys who say they are teenage boys.
I'm not against (legal) porn at all. I don't think that if a kid runs across porn on the Internet that it will somehow scar them for life. I also don't think that viewing porn will turn them into some sex-crazed pervert.
I believe those that are scarred or turned into perverts where either predisposed to this in the first place and that if it weren't the Internet it would be some other stimuli that triggered it, or come from an environment so violent and horrible that they where doomed from the start. The same thing holds true with video games not turning kids into homicidal axe wielding maniacs.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that such online activities should be encouraged, in fact they should be strictly forbidden.
However, I see the biggest threat on the Internet is chat rooms and REAL people. The problem there is that it would be very hard to prevent the kids from finding somewhere to chat. With the proliferation of IRC, web based chat, java based chat, not to mention all of the proprietary formats out there, it is almost impossible to either filter or quickly monitor their activities via a log of some sort.
Supervision is the only true answer, and in the real world in a lot of cases this just isn't an option. Unfortunate but true.
The bottom line is that your 11 year old daughter is MUCH safer doing anything she wants on the Internet than going to a mall or the movies by herself or even with friends.
If kids want porn, they'll get it, Internet or not. Trust me, I know!
load "linux",8,1
there is no evidence that porn is harmful or that censorship is helpful.
Well, there is at least this much harm: as a parent, I want to be in charge of teaching my children what sex is all about, not some sleazeball porn auteur. Once the kids are adults, they're welcome to all the on-line porn they want.
I don't get bent out of shape over porn, because in the grand scheme of things it is only a tiny part of the problem, hardly worth worrying at all when compared to its big brothers: popular entertainment and advertising.
Before you write me off as a prude, it is not nudity or sex acts that I object to, its the context in which they are displayed. Entertainment depicts a world in which sex has no consequences or which conflates violence and sex -- OK as fantasy fare for adults who know better, but lousy sex-ed. Advertising is particularly pernicious: in order to sell they try to create discontent, and then they plant the idea that there are simple solutions to insecurity that can be bought.
I'm not worried that my kids will grow up worldly -- that would be a good thing. It's a false sophistication based on unrealistic or tainted sources.
We have a simple rule in my house: the children's media consumption is not private. As parents we feel sit in on it and engage the children in discussion about what they see or read. We take particular care to inculcate cynicism about commercials, although it's an uphill battle -- the advertisers have got it down to a science.
The same rules applies to Internet use as to any other media.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
If I had to pick someone who would be an authority figure on whether women are hurt or offended by porn, who would it be? Why, a prominent leader in the Women's Civil Rights movement, of course. How about Betty Friedan, author of The Feminist Mystique and co-founder of the National Organization for Women? Surely nobody can take an AP American History course in high school and not recognize the name; we studied her pretty prominently in my course. And she was not only not against pornography, she actually supported it.
These women are only devalued if they allow themselves to be. In the past, they were certainly undervalued, but that's why the Women's Suffrage and Women's Liberation movements came about. Were the situation as severe as people claim, this wouldn't be a few women who claim to be feminists fighting against porn -- it would be a genuine uprising, led by women's leaders. But it's not. Porn does not make women worthless.
-- Imagine how much more advanced our technology would be if we had eight fingers per hand.
For the unaware, Cliff was refering to John Stuart Mill, an 18th-century British philosopher who wrote of "the tyranny of the masses," or "the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling." Mill was noting that logic and reason were being subverted by emotional arguments that appealed to the masses. It's a elitist perspective, but IMHO it's a very valid observation.
This is exactly what's happening here -- as the Salon piece very elegantly expresses, there is no evidence that porn is harmful or that censorship is helpful. In fact, it seems to me only reasonable to think the opposite. I may be biased -- but I'm a 17-year-old who's seen plenty of porn (please don't take that the wrong way), but I'm not some psychotic, violent madman or a pedophiliac. In fact, I'm first in my high school class (finishing my Junior year within the week), I'm looking at top-teir colleges, and I spent my Tuesday night last week being a productive member of my community by lobbying against an issue before the local township council (I won't get into the details of that, but as long as I'm bragging, I think I'll note that I've also finally hit the karma cap =). To see people claim that I should have all kinds of mental problems is, to be, downright offensive. This categorization is wrong, but the majority of people believe it, and that is reflected by our society.
But I think that a lot of the Slashdot crowd sees the argument put forth in the Salon article -- that censorship does not protect children, but instead leaves them unable to cope with the realities of the outside world. (There's a very enlightened judge who ruled recently that children "cannot be raised in a bubble" -- see the ruling for more.) That's why I'm such a fan of peacefire's advocacy.
But I digress. The point is, Mill's quote is the perfect embodiment of the phenomenon we're seeing here -- that is, the popular view that children must be "protected." Unfortunately, as long as the masses remain uneducated, we're fighting a losing battle. I don't know what can be done to counteract this, but I sure it hope somebody else can come up with something, and soon -- before people like me are no longer able to access these things, and are no longer able to realize this common fallacy.
Once again, Kudos to Cliff for showing once again that occasionally the slashdot editors do make very insightful commentaries in and of themselves (especially Jamie, who's written many great anti-censorship articles). Hopefully we've enlightened another person or two today.
-- Imagine how much more advanced our technology would be if we had eight fingers per hand.
He can find the best pR0n faster than I can.
as a parent of two, let me fill you in on a little secret: the only way you're going to know what your kids are up to is to spend time with them. in other words, get off your lazy ass and spend time with them. especially if you only have her 2 days a week. sheesh.
Ah yes, the easy route: flaming. How about instead of just shooting from the hip you come up with something workable? This guy is obviously concerned about his kid, and the only suggetion you can give is "spend more time with them"? Christ, man, that's a given considering the tone of the orginal message.
Oh yeah, and I'm a parent.
Here's my suggestion to the original question: Don't worry about censorware. Just occasionally scan her history, cache, etc., & talk to her in a non-confrontational way about anything you that gives you pause. Censorware usually just pisses kids off and makes them become much better with circumvention than they otherwise would have been.
- Rev.and while your opinions won't be absolutely followed all the time like it was when she was 5
:-)
Heh. In my dreams. I'd be speechless if my 3 year old listened to my opinion
Instead of trying to shield the kids from real life, you should take out two birds with one stone and teach them something about it in the process.
If I ever have kids, I'm going to set up a packet snooping / TA system to figure out exactly what they are doing online, and teach them about the lack of privacy on the Internet from the begining. And when they are smart enough to circumvent my spying with encryption, anonymizers, and mixnets, then they have proved they are smart enough to handle whatever they may see...
&& oskar
So I went to my parents. They're cheating a bit. My kid sister is only 4 years older than my own daughter, so they're forced to deal with some of the same current issues. Their solution? "AOL Parent Controls".
There are some areas where traditional support models just don't work. Seeking advice of one's peers is certainly appropriate here.
That I was born when I was born, and had my computer when I did...
I mean, my parents didn't know anything about it. My dad tried to learn programming with me - but I eventually outpaced him in a few weeks (I do remember playing video games with him - oh the days of going one on one with pops)...
Anyhow, when I was 13 I got my first modem, and started making connections with other people - full on strangers, most of them adults! Also connections with other machines as well...
As I grew older, I learned to download various images - which were - ahem - not exactly the cleanest of material. I remember gaining access to various hacker and bomb making texts, and reading them - even to the point of taking them with me to school to read over more. I remember coding as soon as I got home from school, and doing so until I fell asleep at night...
On the weekend, more time on the computer. My parents were nearly oblivious, though they encouraged me to go outside more, they never physically barred me access to my machine, unless I got bad grades (talk about withdrawal!). If I wasn't on the computer, I was reading, or doing something equally "geeky".
Oh, I almost forgot - the people and machines? BBS's... Images - Mac PICT files and Atari ST images, among others... Programming in BASIC, playin' Asteroids and Missle Command on my Atari 2600 with dad... Hacker and Bomb texts courtesy of MetalShop BBS (among others)... My computer - a TRS-80 Color Computer 2 with 64K and a 300 baud modem - ah, the 80's...
The question in my mind is - where would I be today if my parents were as worried about me then (about "online" activity) as parents are worried today. I am not saying it is the same, but I wonder how this is affecting kids...
Worldcom - Generation Duh!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
$file /home/mykid/* | grep jpeg
/home/mykid/dadwillneverfigurethisout.imsoleet:
JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01, aspect ratio, 1 x 1, "Check out the tits on her!!!!"
muhahahaha!
Like another poster said, when my kid can circumvent my surveilence then he is probably ready to handle what he finds.
And there also is squidblock for those who want a canned set of "bad" sites to block right off the bat. They build the list from user input. And if you want to, there are any number of proxy log reporting tools out there, too, to generate reports of sites visited.
--
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
> i bet you don't like being monitored by feds
> guess who the equivalent is to her
Given that by the time she's 18, the feds will be monitoring everything she does anyways, perhaps it's a good idea to get her used to the idea of Big Brother Watching Her now, before she has to. Better she learn how to "act normal" in front of the folks than in front of the Fed.
(And on the flip side - if she's bound and determined to work her way around the logger, and finds an effective way to do so... more power to her.)
My choice of logging tool: Ethernet sniffer, hooked up to OpenBSD box. OpenBSD box is hooked up to an old dot-matrix printer. Every 15 minutes, a URL is printed in hardcopy, at random. The complete log is stored on the hard drive. The sniffer also logs GROUP and ARTICLE commands on port 119, SMTP headers, etc. but to save on diskspace, drops inbound data on the floor. Basically, your own private Carnivore.
<MODE=BOFH>
...and the logfile is encrypted with Dad's public key. Dad doesn't have to read the log entries to know if the OpenBSD box has been compromised and the logs have been tampered with. All Dad has to do is fail to be able to decrypt the logs with his private key.
</MODE>
If they want access to a site with adult content, then you have your chance to discuss it and you can approve it if you feel they're ready for it.
:-/
Speaking as a former teenager, you're dreaming. If you wait for your kids to come to you with questions about sex you'll be waiting a looooong time. Their friends and peers will tell them way before you get a chance to. And they'll be fed false information - unless they're lucky enough to be friends with Sakura, whose parents are wise enough to have taught her the truth about sex at an early age.
I learned about sex from my friend's stepdad's pr0n video collection. My folks never talked to me about that stuff...oh except when I started my period, my mom talked to me about cramps.
"Smear'd with gumms of glutenous heat, I touch..." - Comus, John Milton
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
>So, how is that different from monitoring your kids internet usage?
the bible has its pages numbered, the internet doesn't. I suppose you could rip all the bad pages out of the bible. Could be a fun experiment to annoy fundamentalist < insert favourite religious followers > , bet THEY won't like being censored..
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
you said only an awareness of what she surfs.
as a parent of two, let me fill you in on a little secret: the only way you're going to know what your kids are up to is to spend time with them. in other words, get off your lazy ass and spend time with them. especially if you only have her 2 days a week. sheesh.
>Way back a while ago (...), ancient prosperous
>cultures' peoples got married at age 13 and had
>babies.
and they lived all the way into their 30's too!
My step-daughter's now 16, and a bit more "worldly" than I'd like to admit. But she's had net access for the last 5 years, pretty much freely, and virtually unfettered access for the last 3.5 years.
... and we nailed him, too.
I do networking for a living. I've periodically dropped a sniffer on her stream and captured content to see what's going on. My wife and I have discreetly used the garnered info, when we've felt we had to, to forestall some potentially hairy problems.
I *don't* want to admit that she's going to have sex as a teenager. But, you know, overall she's a pretty sharp kid, and we do NOT monitor her activity on the Web tightly. We have not had the need to do so for some time: her judgement and her decisions to come to me with 'Net-related questions and problems have indicated she is pretty safe on the Web all by herself.
We had the "It's a mean Net out there" talk back when she was first starting, and again about 18 months ago. She knows she can always come to me with stuff regarding the Net and the Web. And she has, even coming for advice when a friend of hers started having someone spoof her mail to friends in a particularly offensive way
I tend to agree: Trust and time are the keys. And while I've monitored, I've also trusted... Consider the monitoring a form of verification, and realize that we take our role in shaping her life pretty seriously.
g.
Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by tenure.
I like this paragraph from Salon's article so much I'm going to repeat it. I'd like you all to read it again, too...
Listen, I know the libertarian spirit is at the heart of so much that is dear to the OpenSource community in general and the Slashdot set in particular. But come on. This is an intellectual community as well as a zealously independent one. Without digressing into discussions about censorships, without exploding into self-righteous rage about Columbine, videogames, Marilyn Manson, and the whole bloody first amendment, does anyone here accept the statement above as being absolutely, inarguably honest and true?
The article is written by a FILM CRITIC, employed by one of the most left-leaning publications currently in existence on the Internet.
People interested in studies that correlate attitudes towards sex and violence to exposure will find that there are countless studies on the subject ("oh, here is one of them!), written by social scientists, media theorists, and other sorts who've a little more going for them than the sheer force of their own bias. I have yet to see a credible study that concludes as Mr. Taylor concludes.
That Slashdot would reference the Salon article in the laudatory manner that it does is an embarrassment.
For the record kids (and those of you who are intellectually immature), the problem isn't simply one of children seeing sex & violence on television. The problem is the context in which the behaviors they witness are portrayed. The problem is exacerbated by parents who set their children down in front of the tube for hours on end and relinquish their own parental responsibility to love their children, teach their children, discipline their children and foster their children's intellectual development.
You want a study, Mr. Taylor, from someone other than a religious whacko? Get your ass to Amazon, pick up a copy of Neil Postman's "The End of Childhood". See what an agnostic social theorist, one of the greatest cultural critics alive, has to say about the matter. You'll learn, among other things, that childhood as we all know it didn't exist 300 years ago, it is a social construct, created in America, as a by-product of our education system. Our country committed itself to the education of children for the express purpose of producing an intellectually sophisticated citizenry. The schooling system that was created was in part created to allow for a "progressive revelation", exposing children to information which built upon an increasingly complex set of rules (which assumed a prior set of rules had already been taught). As much as anything, information restriction served to protect much of the social construct of childhood. They were protected from, yes PROTECTED FROM information. It was revealed to them in stages such that they were prepared to receive it. All the while, they received not only information but knowledge (from parents and authorities) and also wisdom. As terrifying as it sounds, they were taught to distinguish right from wrong. STOP THE PRESSES! HOW BLOODY PURITANICAL! LITERALLY! TAUGHT RIGHT FROM WRONG! BUT WHO IS TO DETERMINE WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG! WHY, NO ONE CAN DO THAT!
Actually, some one can (and should) do that. Parents are supposed to do that. And if parents did a better job of it these days, we wouldn't be in the societal mess we're in.
I'm not here to advocate censorship. If anyone starts babbling about that, I pity you. I'm advocating parental responsibility. Teach your children how to contextualize what they see. Teach them how to process the information they are exposed to. If you abdicate the education of your children to the media, for pete's sake, DON'T COMPLAIN WHEN YOUR KID WATCHES JACKASS AND SETS HIMSELF ON FIRE. And please, teach them how to reject laughably biased nonsense like the Salon.com paragraph above, so they don't end up thinking its genius and including it in SLASHDOT post as if God himself had etched it in the stone on Mt. Sinai.
TANGENTIAL RANT
What is also truly sad, what is also truly pitiable, is to see the injustice that our own education system perpetuates through continually lowered standards and so-called progressive learning techniques. Does the fact that our education system is pumping out illiterate boneheads by the thousands, teaching them that there aren't really right-or-wrong-answers to questions ("what is important is how-you-feel!") bother anyone? That self-declared film critics can write paragraphs like the one above, and be LAUDED by others instead of derided? Well, if these things don't bother you now, wait until your seventy, and you're sitting there asking yourself how come your grandchildren are drooling idiots who can't wipe their own arses. See if you're laughing when you find it out it was because they didn't get a Ph.D in Anal Hygienics, and no-one else in the country knows how to do it anymore.
almost 11 is just a child. NOT A SMALL ADULT. Some people get the two confused.
You wont need to moniter her if you have both a strong relationship and rules. If the relationship is not there forget the rules, the relationship MUST be there first.
Sensorware is only there to keep honest people honest. I use squid/squidguard with a php interface for banned sites. My son can add a site or remove a site from the blacklist. But he knows that I will be emailed a copy of the transaction.
Get a free ipod.
How exactly would you explain www.goatse.cx to your eleven year old daughter? I don't have kids, but the thought of having to try and explain that phenomena to another *adult* scares me.
.sig: Now legally binding!
Okay, but that doesn't solve everything. Granted, I grew up with BBS's instead of the big bad internet, but file swapping was not unheard of.
The computer was (wisely) kept in the family dining room, and not my bedroom or other "private" place. But I'm sure that... eh... had I wanted to swap some pr0n, I probably could've waited until after my parents went to bed and done all the bad stuff I wanted. Hypothetically, I mean.
So, um, what was that thing about squid again?
---
My step-daughter is almost 11 and, though she's only with her mother and me every other weekend By my standards this would qualify as a total wreck of a family, and accessibility of the Internet would be the least problem for the daughter. Then again, I am not American. What an interesting, ignorant thing to say, you Non-American, you. Being a Canadian and the son of divorced parents, I know that divorces are quite common in North America. When a couple gets divorced (and this has been going on for quite a while) usually one parent gets custody of the kids and the other parent gets visitation rights. All of that is decided in family court. It sounds to me as though the guy asking the /. question gets to see his step-daughter every two weeks (which is also typical). There is also joint custody where the child bounces back and forth, spending equal time with both parents - which I can imagine is probably not very good for the child.
So now is the time to take your Non-American foot out of your Non-American mouth and WAKE UP. Divorces are bound to be more common in the future wherever you are too!
----- rL
I can't disagree strongly enough. Kids should be able to EARN some privacy by displaying responsible behavior, but what they are ENTITLED to is adult supervision.
A responsible sixteen year old should have a fair bit of privacy. The question was about an eleven year old, who should have virtually none. (outside the obvious, showering, dressing, etc.)
Don't forget we are talking about the Internet here. The Internet at its best is a useful research tool, a place to build communities, and a powerful way for people to understand each other better. At its worse, it is a red-light district minus cops and a reasonable ability to guess how old patrons are.
Bottom line, what kids ARE entitled to is parents to supervise them, and don't give them enough freedom to make major mistakes until they are old enough to handle that freedom.
When a thirteen year old becomes pregnant it is the parent who has failed. Unfortunately it is the child who lives with the consequences. It is also the child who is MOST in need of being molded who is now treated as an adult, because she has a child of her own.
What's ethical about that?
-Peter
You know, it takes 15 seconds to make a girl pregnant.
;-)
Hey, speak for yourself on that one!
[I]f a thirteen year old becomes pregnant it is the parent who has failed. But in my opinion, it is more likely that the parent has failed to grant privacy when s/he should have.
Hmm, I think there is a phenomenon that you are describing here that you don't really understand. It is when a child is too SHELTERED that this happens, not too supervised.
It is VERY important that a child be exposed to things as he grows up. Keeping a child in a bubble until 18 then letting him loose on the world is just as unfair as letting him loose on the world at seven. You see, it is the SAME problem, he doesn't have the EXPERIENCE to make good decisions.
Where we seem to disagree is that I think that it is parents' job to see to it that this experience happens in a controlled way, stepping in before something that isn't easily undone happens.
You seem to think that kids will just know how to do the right thing if you don't bug them too much. I think you are dead wrong.
-Peter
I hate to chime in so late but . . .
I take issue with the premise of the question.
It is your ethical duty TO monitor your kids. That is what parents are there to do, monitor, guide, and mold their children. If you AREN'T monitoring them your are failing them.
Now, it is obviously good to build trust with your kids, but it is better for your kids to think your too nosy than to end up dead in a ditch.
I don't know why, but people seem to think that 1. kids are small adults and 2. that parents are supposed to be a built in best friend.
Your kids should respect you. If you treat them like miniature adults that are your best buddy they won't. And you are setting them up for problems.
Today's unsupervised eleven year old is tomorrow's "out of control teen" on daytime TV.
-Peter
Monitor all the traffic with a proxy server- including your own surfing, and go over the logs together. The best way you can teach is to set a good example.
Many kids will accidentally go to someplace like whitehouse.com and get the suprise of their life- as long as they understand that is something they should not be looking at- that should be fine, lesson learned, and they know not to go there again. Eventually the kid will see something you find morally troubling- and so will you. Take the time to explain what you think is wrong about things like that. The child needs to know why she shouldn't be browsing something, more than just "bad place- stay away!"
Use a squid proxy or some toher mean to log the address and title of only sites that contain certain keywords. Then a quick scan of the logfiles at your leisure can see if she's been abusing her privlidges, without maintaining a privacy-endagering log of every site she visits.
I'm a 21 year old male that has in the past seen a lot of porn and I would have to disagree with your idea that porn is not harmful. I first started looking at porn when I was ~17. My views of women started changing in an unhealthy way. I started looking at women as sex ojects instead of human beings with emotions just like us (well probably more fragile emotions in some ways). Most women don't want this in a man but might settle on it because men (actually anyone) with morals are becoming much harder to find nowadays. I luckily realized that my view was changing along with the way I treated women but I had a very hard time stopping my viewing of porn. What I finally had to do is install a program called WeBlocker with a password that I don't know. I'm sure the same kind of thing can happen to women and thus it is better to block porn before it can do any harm. I do also suggest though that the parent should explain why porn (or any other site deemed harmful) is not appropriate.
Linux Dashes, NT Crashes...
Simple just put a entery in you hosts file or DNS server ,if you run one, that points you to google or some where else. Or you you run a proxy server setup a redirector. Here is web site with directions on how to set it up
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
To say that a child at the age of 11 has a right to view everything on the internet as a statement against censorship is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I mean there are way worse things to worry about than whether or not you are censoring stuff off of the internet. I mean...why not just allow your daughter to go to an X-rated movie at the age of 11...I mean if you didn't allow it you would be censoring her right? Right?!
I'm still working on a clever footer.
i.e. don't make the net her babysitter. If she's going to surf the net, surf it with her.
We in the industry have this thing we like to call "a chair." When two are placed side by side in front of a computer, you generally have all the hardware you need to monitor computer usage.
sig fault
First things first -- I ran a BBS starting at the age of twelve. It had many, many thousands of adult pictures on it. I had my first 'net access when I was thirteen; this was before the web, but there was still plenty of pr0n to be found.
Now, I saw a whole bunch of stuff that probably should have warped my fragile little mind, and I was way too young for most of it. But despite that I've developed into a reasonably normal adult; I'm happily married, I have a healthy attitude towards women and sex -- I'm unscarred by the early porn exposure.
I've thought about this issue, of what to do when I have kids and need to worry about this sort of thing. I'm leaning towards the side of (once they reach twelve or so) giving them unrestricted net access and trusting them to be every bit as immature as I was, but learn a lot about life in the process.
Sounds weird, I know -- allowing my kids to be exposed to the evils of the net!! Well, everybody I know who didn't see pr0n on the net saw their older sibling's porno tapes (or whatever) at aoubt the same age I was, and I'm not convinced that shielding them from pornography really protects them in any way.
The basic question I asked myself is: how many people do I know that weren't exposed to pr0n and other evils at a young age? Well, nobody that I've asked. I first saw hardcore porn at about the age of ten, my wife was eleven or twelve, and all of my friends were similarly young.
And of those people, how many turned out the worse for it? Tough to tell, I know, because we all saw it, but I certainly don't feel screwed up by the experience. Maybe it's just part of growing up.
I know, I know, there are pedophiles and all sorts of other nasties out there -- true enough, but they're not all on the net. Casual conversation with a child will easily reveal any suspicious online "friendships", and I'm not convinced they're in any more danger online than off.
I'm certainly not saying what you should or should not do with your stepdaughter, but give some serious thought to how many people you know who had unfiltered net access at that age who grew up the worse for it.
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
Giving a child "freedom" to harm themselves isn't enlightened behaviour, but is itself childish.
/.'ers who can't claim the same.
Becoming a responsible person means that you actively influence others in a positive direction; those you are responsible for.
Shirking that responsibility doesn't mean that they weren't influenced, it just means that something else influenced them.
It is all about time. There is only so much time in the day. What you choose (or what is chosen) to become part of your day influences you in time. If you spend enough time practicing piano, you eventually become excellent. If you spend enough time reading great books, you eventually become well read. Most of us spent a great deal of our youth to attain some degree of fluency with programming or system administration. To allow pornography to be part of a child's day is depriving them of the good things that would instead nurture and form their minds.
If you think that web-pornography is an essential part of an 11 year old's daily information intake, then state that plainly. It is at least a tangible position, however equivalent it is to allowing anything they can get their hands on to be "fair game" for injesting.
If an 11 year old mind already has a subtle enough pallete to distinguish worthy and unworthy ideas, images and friends, then they should be responsible for the formation of some
Most need their parents, and (unfortunately) most parents subscribe to some degree of hands-off-ology, as if someone else won't gladly chime in the minute you fall silent.
To the people who claim that you will stifle your child or come across as overbearing by being so active a parent, that depends on what you give and show to them. Good things don't stifle, they enrich. I whole heartedly agree that space-fillers meant to replace more lurid (and usually more interesting) information will drive a kid crazy. This includes Christian "Rock", most Disney movies, etc. Adolescents generally will not be harmed by violent images (not gore, though), sexual images (not porn, though), rough language (not gratuitous, though).
In short, art and not shit. Those that can't tell the difference have already demonstrated that they lack qualifications to be responsible for another's (inevitable) formation.
sig is
oh, sure. use a scare tactic. that's definately NOT the approach I would use.
instead, since you raise your children with good morals and ethics (right?), show your children a site that is completely wrong/unjust/evil/vile/etc. teach them why. educate them on why certain things are not right.
I work under the philosophy that children shouldn't be shielded from these atrocities (though I'm not saying the opposite). they should be taught about them and why they're wrong so that they can _voluntarily_ choose not to witness or seek these things.
parents CAN'T always be there to shield their childrens' eyes. at some point, children will bear witness to something disgusting, to vile materials of some nature. why not coach them and make sure that they handle the situation appropriately, with or without a parent to hold their hands?
a society like our own (representative democracy) cannot function unless everybody is educated and active in politics and community.
Use my userscript to add story images to Slashdot. There's no going back.
I hereby waive my next set of moderation points to give to Jamie for his intelligent checklists. It's honestly a pity that you can't moderate the articles themselves, because this bit was great.
Sorry for the OT stuff folks, but we rag on the editors/writers so much when they suck that they deserve to know when they're doing a good job.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Point One: I'm not entirely bothered by the progressive learning techniques, because in all the educational systems I've been exposed too the top-level of learning (Honors/Gifted level classes in 9'th and 10'th grades, AP in 11'th and 12'th) performs remarkably competently as a mass-educator. Those in lower rungs may be lead to beleive that they're competent when they're not, but it's not such a big deal - the world will teach them that within a year or two of HS graduation.
Point Two:
a) While your point about the writer being a film critic is somewhat valid as a questioning of his credintals, he is not making any new claim in and of itself - he is merely questioning the validity of studies published to date on the matter, and you don't need a PhD. in psychology to do that. Again, he's not pushing his own 'study.'
b) I carefully read your tirade twice, and I notice nothing that actually stands in contradiction to what he said (unless, I realize, you are operating with the premise that pornography is inherently evil. But that should be stated outright.). The film critic is not advocating unfettered access, especially in the quote you gave, he is questioning the assumption that pornography is inherently harmful. Any information presented to a child when he/she is unprepared to deal with it, or as you put it "contextualize what they see," stands a chance of harming him/her emotionally.
I quote from the article "Just because I think extreme protectionism is misguided doesn't mean that I think children should be exposed to anything and everything. Parents have to make those decisions for their own kids."
This man is arguing that it is not doing a child a favor to protect him/her completely from "inappropriate" material until the day he/she is 18 -- he argues that, if anything, the protectionism is doing him/her a disservice by both discouraging open discussion and decreasing preparation for the uncensored wonder of adult life. He says nothing about parental teachings of value (so long as they're not contradictory). He says nothing about parental guidance in general. And he is certainly not promoting or enocouraging the media as the primary source of values.
Your tirade was informed and insightful, but unfortunately you unleashed it upon someone who apparantly doesn't disagree with you.
"Evil company X is threatening to restrict our rights! Let's all get together to stop--OOOH! SHINEY!!!" -- AC
As a parent of an almost 11 year old, I also read The Morality Police, and while it did say some things I agreed with, the author had some very wierd views of the law.
Specifically, the MPAA ratings system is not an "unconstitutional restriction of free speech", it is free speech - in the form of an economically enforced blacklist. X-rated theaters aren't illegal, it's just that Walt Disney and all other MPAA members won't license their films to be shown at one. This is nearly identical to the approach of anti-spam lists, including the RTBL.
So far as raising your daughter is concerned, repeat after me: the net is no different than any other medium.
You need to stay involved in your daughters life no matter what her interests are, and while your opinions won't be absolutely followed all the time like it was when she was 5, they are still the extremely important. Try not to be judgemental, but also be clear to point out the consequences that can occur from bad choices on her part.
Despite media hype about the internet, the #1 killer of teenagers - that just about dwarfs all others - is drunk driving. Telling her not to get in a car with a drunk boy is more likely to keep her out of harms way than any other advice I could give you.
Fantastic. Now for all eternity (or as long as Slashdot archives remain on the 'net) there will be a direct link to your daughter's page in the midst of a goatse.cx discussion. Imagine the pride she will have when her friends point out that her father linked her site with the Goatse.cx man.
I think I'm tired of the Internet now.
--
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
-
Now that eighteen-year-olds have the right to vote, it is obvious that
they must be allowed the freedom to form their
political views on the basis of uncensored speech
before they turn eighteen, so that their minds
are not a blank when they first exercise the
franchise. And since an eighteen-year-old's right
to vote is a right personal to him rather than a
right to be exercised on his behalf by his
parents, the right of parents to enlist the aid
of the state to shield their children from ideas
of which the parents disapprove cannot be plenary
either. People are unlikely to become well-
functioning, independent-minded adults and
responsible citizens if they are raised in an
intellectual bubble.
and a truly precious lineThat's a good, realistic argument from a sitting judge.
When you're looking for something, use the Google search engine. (Among its other benefits, it's the most kid-friendly.) Always start your search with at least three words. Any fewer, and you're probably just wasting your time. Parents can help you learn how to pick three good words.
And when using the Google search engine if you are looking for information about the book "Little Women" you should also include the author's name with your search.
Spoken like a child who is not ready to accept the fact that with freedom comes responsibility.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Since I've never been buggered, nor have I ever pumped iron, I don't know which wastes more time, but they are two activities which aren't really productive in the material sense. There are some people who enjoy looking at such things, and there are people who hate them. But, largely, one may assume that both activities are done because the people who perform them enjoy doing so.
In the end, the objective reason why goatse.cx is worse than Schwarzenegger is because social convention says it's so. What i would tell my own daughter would be something like "it's a man with some kind of mental disease, and the people who put that picture online did it because they thought it would be a good joke. You know what 14 year old boys are like..." (she probably does know)
Like what?
Heaven forbid the poor thing grows up open-minded and in touch with the realities of the world...
- Rei
You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
Raising a child means being involved in that child's life. There is no ethical or moral problem with parenting your child by monitoring their online use.
I'd suggest you use a proxy that logs all page requests. You can then review the logs and see where the child has been going. You should also correlate the times to dial-up activity (e.g., look at /var/log/messages); if there is a time gap in the web log vs. the dial-up, someone just learned how to bypass your proxy.
Good job. Too bad you don't get her more often.
Show her the logfiles from squid and explain how you can keep track of every single site she visits.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
The problem with the arguments of the pro-censor lobby in that we must "protect" children from the harmful elements that exist on the Internet (George W. Bush is famously quoted as saying that the Internet "can turn [children's] hearts black") is that there is no proof either way. Just as there is no conclusive evidence that proves that a direct, cause-and-effect link doesn't exist between usage of the Internet and its effects on your child's/teenager's wellbeing, doesn't mean that it does exist. So both sides here can be accused of churning out biased, emotional and illogical crap in equal measures because there is this lack of proof either way.
The only fair way to decide on issues such as this is on a case-by-case basis after looking at all the facts (such as the maturity of the child and previous experience). If you believe that your 15-year-old can take care of themselves on the Internet (which the vast majority of well-adjusted teenagers with a minor degree of common sense can do anyway), then let them have unrestricted access to the Internet. It's impossible to teach your kids any degree of responsibility and to teach them how to handle themselves in the "real world" if we are continually shielding them from it. There's not much on the Internet that kids/teenagers won't come into contact to through the "real world" and if you don't know this by now then you really have a lot to learn about life.
So if you believe your kids/teenagers aren't ready for the joys (and dangers) that the Internet may hold then by all means install the software but make sure that you've talked it over with your son/daughter before you decide. If they feel that they are being left out of the decision- making process then they will most likely not feel compelled to follow your "rules". What we do need here is discussion, fact-finding and to include the kids/teenagers (ie. the people we are apparently trying to protect) in the process. What we don't need is inflammatory, baseless, "immediate action" rhetoric that only results in "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt" (FUD) and reactionary legislation that in the end does nothing to protect these people anyway (and never mind the JonKatz cracks).
Self Bias Resistor
"If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid." - Murphy's Laws of Combat
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When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer our friend.
We told her the basic mechanics, along with what she was ready for in terms of our moral views on the subject. At her age there was not much drama...just a puzzling detail she couldn't figure out. I expect it to get way more "interesting" as she gets older.
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
How about teaching her to make proper judgements, because if she's curious, she will have access to awful things one way or another (friends house, the library, even, gasp, in a book).
Plus sooner or later she will join the real world (TM) as a mature adult (C) and there will be no url log file or father sitting by her chair approving and disapproving of her choices.
How about teaching her something instead of tying a leash and threatening with a url log stick?
And what is even more amazing is the chorus of dittoheads recomending different strength leashes instead of suggesting teaching her the difference between good and bad.
what's the best solution for me (as a part-time parent) to keep an eye on her surfing?
The best solution for you to keep an eye on her surfing...is to keep an eye on her surfing.
Try to trust her, don't get too intrusive, but at the same time be aware of where she is going online.
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DOOR!!
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
Step 1:
The best way to control your step-daughter's web browsing is to talk to her about it. 11-year olds should understand that there are some websites they are not allowed to visit, just as they should understand that there are certain television shows they are not allowed to watch.
Step 2:
Put the computer in living room or some other high-traffic location and actually keep an eye on her. If she knows the rules and knows that you will enforce them, you should be all set.
In short, don't use technology as a substitute for parenting.
--
"You've gotta be a spirit...Don't be no ghost."
Keep in mind too that "The Net" is not as powerful as popular culture would have you believe.
In the 50's, comic books were regarded with the same sort of horror as the spectre of "The Internet"
High schools today really scare me. I came in as a speaker for an old teacher who is a friend and noticed the prison-like atmosphere. The degree of paranoia expressed by the administration was real scary. I think this is an outgrowth of the 'protect the children' mindset and is absolutely bizzare and disgusting.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
No offense taken.
Just to clarify, I don't have a problem with parents making rules for their children to follow. Kids are vulnerable to all sorts of lousy influences.
The notion of spying is what bothers me. An environment of paranoia and fear is no place for a child. Basically, if you feel a need to spy on your children, you have done something wrong. In fact, I'd say that a parent who behaves like that IS a poor influence on their child themselves!!
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
I think that you missed my point. I did not mean to imply that a complete 'hands off' attitude on the part of a parent is ideal. I did say that parents should aim to be 'shepards' to their children, not wardens or bosses.
You need to take the time to RAISE YOUR CHILD and maintain an open, honest relationship with them. Kids with strong identities and confidence are not going to be damaged by whatever crap they see.
I do agree with you wholehartedly about the Disney and born-again shit. Parking your kid in front of some numbing disney movie is not a good thing.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
The fact that you need to have such a degree of control over your children is a chilling and horrible thought.
Have you ever considered the consequences of seeking complete control of another humam being? A parent's role should be that of a shepard, not a guard dog. If you teach your child to think for himself (or herself) and use common sense, you'll end up with a free-thinking and mature young man or woman.
A controlling, domineering parent will result in nothing but a angry and rebellious child or someone incapable of dealing with life and society in general.
If you feel that you need to surreptitiously spy on your child, I pity you.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
I would still insist good filtering software (as opposed to what exists today) has a function to fulfil, namely to tell apart what kids should be allowed to explore on their own and what you should be around to explain a few things.
I think something is forgotten in all this, kids have a right to privacy too. They need to be left alone every now and then to experience things on their own. They can't become a responsible individual unless they are allowed this right, IMHO.
Other than that, I agree with you, but I don't think you can seed your child's mind with competing memes unless you allow them privacy to explore things on their own, once in a while.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
This is a good question, and I'll see if I can answer to you, and your peers, satisfaction.
Let's see... Well, I linked to Sakura ("that child", my daughter) because I wanted to show that I do indeed have a daughter.
A lot of the time, people who are fearful of sex, "stretched bodily holes", any threat to their authority/concept of decency, children learning the truth about sex, and Harry Potter, suggest that people who are into unrestricted Internet access don't have kids of their own.
I want to show that that is not the case. When Sakura can hold a mouse and click links, she can look at any page she wants to. Oh no! What if she sees porn on the Internet?! Since she's already seen hentai (I'd link to something better, but fear the slashdotting...) on the TV/VCR (she doesn't bat an eye), she shouldn't be all that surprised. I don't think the better resolution will have a huge affect on her.
You may believe and teach your children that sexual material is harmful, evil, and fearful; I, however, will not.
Spector records Screenshots, ALL POP3 and AOL email, ALL chat conversations in AIM, ICQ, MSN, and Yahoo! messengers, and additionally logs all keystrokes, along with a few other features. Furthermore, it is virtually undetectable.
Their older version (2.2) was great. But in some time, they'll be releasing v3.0 which is truly kickass (Take this from someone who is beta-testing it now)
Highly recommend for parents. Note: This doesn't block anything, but rather it LOGS everything.
The parent can then decide what's inappropriate.
Make sure she doesn't browse at -1. That alone will keep her clear of much racist humour, incorrect claims to "Frist Prost", and that unfortunate fellow whom we all wish would stop bending over.
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Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
Well spoken. Your call for individualized consideration is one of the most cogent arguments I've seen yet in this topic.
And, as should be evident, I agree. The level of ability to handle the "Real World" does vary with the child (or even the adult).
Virg
I really liked the comment about leaving the computer in the family room, provided parents are there when the kid surfs! It in no intrusive, but will keep the child with in bounds. :)
Be sure to talk with your child about sites you like, or their favortie sites, or good chats they have had! Be a part of their lives in this way!
There are those who will tell you that your child should be set loose and un-fettered. Do not fall for this! Study after study shows that children must be given boundaries with love by adults if they are to grow up well. Your presence in net-surfing will probably be enough, and will hopefully start good habits that will follow your child into their more independant years when you have to let them go.
More personally, I am THRILLED to see a parent looking to raise their child instead of letting society raise them!!! Thanks!!!
Sam
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"The Son of God became a man to enable man to become sons of God."
Sam
Download ethereal from www.ethereal.com And if she figures out how to encrypt her traffic so that you can't sniff the packets, then be proud! You have a smart one!
Nice straw man. Really, it's a good one, if not obvious. Show parents who would like to actually parent as brutal, uneducated, discriminating idiots. Better yet, make 'em rednecks. That's an easy straw man to break down.
Then, post about how we should leave them alone. We should all believe you now, since you've shown us how stupid actual interested parents are.
I believe this is called a "logical fallacy." (More specifically, the straw man fallacy.)
Now that that's out of the way, I've got a question for you regarding this comment: Other than that, leave them alone, and let them discover the good and the bad the way the rest of us did.
The rest of us? Who's that? I suppose I'm not in that group, since my parents actually bothered to tell me about that stuff. Heck, they even told me if I held a firecracker in my hands, it would blow up and hurt A LOT. I think I'll let my daughter discover how HOT that stove can get all by herself. She'll never do that again.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
Web browsers all have a cache somewhere, for storing recently downloaded info in order to not have to download it again. All you need to do is figure out where the browser cache is on your computer and you will be able to see everything that has been downloaded - and when - and where from. Of course, a browser cache can be deleted (and your average 11-year-old is likely to be able to do this), so if you see an empty cache, then this might also be cause for concern.
Jamie's comments are all good too.
"Anybody remotely interesting is mad, in some way or another" - Doctor Who
The fact that you "Spent your childhood downloading porn" illuatrates the danger of it - it is ADDICTIVE and has been shown to cause relationship problems later in life. If you want your kid to grow up with a healthy attitude to sex and their fellow human beings, you need to keep up with what they are reading and looking at.
"Anybody remotely interesting is mad, in some way or another" - Doctor Who
I had an uncommunitive 12 year old. I was worried so I installed a key capture progam on the Mac and kept it in the family room. This also allowed me to get passwords to Webmail sites like hotmail.com So I could monitor that too. Fortunately I had nothing to worry about. I ended up with a lot of stuff I couldn't talk about. In the long run it wasn't worth it. If I could do it over I would just keep the computer in the family room and keep hammering away at that communication.
Just Talk To Your Kid.
Since most sites deposit cookies on your PC (including most any pr0n site) because of ads, a simple method would be to set her up:
1. A "user profile" or account on a `Doze 9X or NT/2000 machine. You can then look in your cookies directory where they are identified by USER. (this directory is usually under \windows\cookies if memory serves)
2. If using a Linux/Unix box, do the same thing. Clear your cookies. Mozilla will show you the cookies accepted under edit>preferences>Privacy and Security>Cookies.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
What's wrong with looking at her browsing history? You don't need a 3rd party program to do that...
"I'll just chip in a bit for RedHat: I actually have that installed on my university machine." - Linus, '95
Make sure they are aware of choices, that some do allow and some don't. Make sure they don't violate the choices of their friends parents. Guide them into seeing both points of view.
Parenting isn't easy. Its undoubtably the most difficult job on the planet. Be aware that child minds are incredibly good meme hosts. Seed with lots of interlocking high value memes. Cultivate your child's meme ecology rather than censor it into barreness.
You cannot weed a meme out of a childs mind, and you cannot keep it out forever. Your only hope is to seed it with the competing memes.
Its just what you're looking for, it allows you to view a list of the URLs that have been viewed without blocking access to most of the net.
Can anyone please explain how this works? I visit a web site: My browser sends an HTTP request to their web server. Their web server sends HTML (or whatever) back to me. The monitor logs this. Now, if I spend five seconds or five hours reading the web page, how will the monitor know? What if I visit www.whitehouse.com then open another browser window and go see www.whitehouse.gov? Will the monitor software say I spent five seconds at www.whitehouse.com because five seconds after I went there I went somewhere else? But the whitehouse.com site is still up in the first browser and I can read that page all day while continuing to surf in the other browser. How does the monitor know? Or rather, what's their claim for how they know?
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
save your pity
this parent has a legitimate concern. and while your point has some validity, you are grossly simplifying a complex situation.
first of all: there are parents out there that are domineering and controlling, and sometimes their kids suffer for it - but sometimes they turn out just fine, too. just as often as i've seen less than stellar parenting result in 'angry and rebellious' people, i've seen it result in wonderful and decent people who have no trouble dealing with life or society. that broad generalization is flat out wrong, and i'm sure you realize that.
back to the point, the person submitting this story is trying to figure out how to give his step-daughter as much freedom online as possible. you, as a (presumably) mature person, would almostly certainly be able to realize not to give an anonymous chatter your address and full name. or not to give out credit card numbers to dubious sites. or not to go to goat.se.cx... however, a kid might not be aware of the dangers in this behaviour. and it's not just a learning experience... chatting with a stranger has gotten more than a couple of people killed or kidnapped. i seem to think that either of those scenarios could be much more detrimental to the normal development and socialization of a child than a domineering parent...
this guy is trying to moniter his step daughters activity, and try to prevent her from seeing things she might not really be ready to see. he's not tying her up in the basement or keeping her under lock and key. contemplating filtering software or monitering someone's traffic is hardly "seeking complete control of another humam being." really, underparenting can be just as bad as overparenting....
save your righteous indignation for M$ attacks on open source or Rambus patent stories.
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
Just ask them about it:
:p
Pa: "Hey BOY?!"
John-Boy: "Yeah Pa?"
Pa: "You havn't been going to any of that gay porno on that internet, have ya'?"
John-Boy: "No Pa, I'm only visiting Slashdot."
Pa: "Slashdot? That sounds like gay porno to me"
John-Boy: "No, see pa? Its a place where people have (semi-)intelligent discussions relating to technology, the news, and the law, and how it affects all of us in today's times."
Pa: "Hm...well, I guess that's not so bad. What's that there link that some pussy coward put?"
John-Boy: "Er...that's nothing."
Pa: "Click it!"
John-Boy: "No!"
Pa: "I knew it, this is just another gay porno site!!!"
John-Boy: "No pa! It's not! I swear!"
*Pa takes the mouse and discovers what "goatse" means, and John-boy is whipped for the rest his life*
Er....what was the point of this again? Oh yeah, just ask the freaking kids. Other than that, leave them alone, and let them discover the good and the bad the way the rest of us did. Those of us who held a firecracker in our hands as it blew never did it again, and any boy who ends up in a private chat with "SeXyOlDgUy69" deserves what he's going to get. I guarantee he'll never do it again.
Are you sure you want to see what she's surfing? What were you planning to do if you find she's been surfing an "inappropriate" site? Are you willing to accept that sex and birth control information sites are likely to be hit in the coming years? I suggest not monitoring her access for precisely this reason - she needs access to the info as she becomes an adult, but fathers can rarely deal with that fact that their daughters will have sex sooner or later.
Master of odors. Using his powerful scent, Stinkor destroys all.
Sorry, but I had to say that. When I was young, I read everything in sight and then some. I was only told one time that I couldn't read something (Mission Earth, by L. Ron Hubbard) until I was older, but I read it soon afterwards, anyway. And I was the better for it.
Certainly, there was a lot of violent and sexual material in some of the things I read. Because of reading it, however, I got rid of any insane ideas I had on almost any subject. I can deal rationally with many things that cloud other people's judgment. If aliens started blasting people's heads off, I wouldn't panic. I would be able to rationally run to the nearest gun store and blast some aliens. I wouldn't freeze in fear, I wouldn't run around like a chicken with its head cut off, I wouldn't do anything insane. Many people I know would simply die if something like this happened, because they wouldn't be able to face it rationally.
At the same time, I am not fixated on any of these subjects. I do not think porn is something inherently evil; I do not think it is the greatest thing in the world. I think it is erotic pictures of naked people.
As I said in a previous post, people learn to live by living. The example of the kid scared of a ghost story in that essay is a good example of this. He was sheltered from ghost stories, and other scary stories. Result: he was unable to cope with a ghost story he heard. One of the books I read when I was young was Fear, also by LRH. It's a decently scary book. I read many other scary books, some of which scared me at first, but no longer affect me badly. When I found a book of "scary, not for young kids" ghost stories, I thought they were rather tame and wasn't scared by them in the least.
Basically, I'm saying that experience is good. It's like eating hot foods: someone who has never eaten anything hot will be blown away by tabasco sauce, while someone who regularly eats hot foods will be able to easily cope with tabasco sauce.
If someone doesn't go out and live, they will not be able to cope with life when it comes knocking on their door.
I don't have kids either, but if I did I'm sure I could explain it to them with what all kids understand - a little bit of humor. Just tell them with a smile that there are some sick, sick people in the world. If they don't get it right away, they'll eventually see that "nasty porn" at their friends house, and probably go "Eeeeeeewwww!!"
To put it in perspective - explaining deviant sex is PEANUTS compared to explaining other things - like why people kill, how wars happen, and everything else you see on the nightly news.
Remember, this girl is in all likelihood not going to have the interest or ability needed to work around a firewall or even the Internet Explorer history tab. Just keep it simple, and let your daughter know that if she visits an inappropriate site - and she is old enough to know what that is, trust me - she will never be allowed unfettered internet access again. Let her see you checking up on her occasionally, but also let it drop that there are other times you check when she isn't there. Statements like, "So, I saw that at 3:00 AM you were looking at slashdot" let her know that you are, so far as she in concerned, omnipotent and omnipresent. You really don't need a dedicated firewall or proxy server with squid, unless your daughter is much better than I give her credit for. In which case, I apoligize for underestimating her.
I'm the stranger...posting to
I was a senior tech with a service center before I started my own business. In the shop I had a standing bet that if there was an on-line bible shortcut on the desktop, there would be hard core porn somewhere. The rules of the game were simple. Online Bible? Run a find for *.jpg. If it comes up with stuff, you take me to lunch. If it comes up clean, I'm buying. I bought the shop lunch 5 times since 1994, seeing. an average of 120 computers a day. And the porn wasn't the arguably artistic stuff either. The sickest stuff, the more shocking the better. I'll leave the details to your imagination.
Point is, What is the difference in abdicating your parental responsibilities to a stranger that thumps a bible, but may have a secret life, as compared to doing the same thing with all the info with any stranger on the web? Not a lot. Who to trust. I trust no one. I raise my kids.
For the record, my son and daughter have uncensored broadband to his PC on his desk in the corner of the living room. They have yet to hit something accidentally, but when they do (it's inevitable), we'll talk it over.
This fall when I upgrade, he will be getting my computer, and his sister will be getting theirs for herself alone. At that time, we plan to relocate his workstation to his room. He has been on the net for 3 years and I have yet to have an issue. I trust him because he has earned my trust. For the past 3 years I have audited logs and checked his system with no surprises. I am a parent in this 21st century. It's my job.
Regards,
ITmage
You only think it's impossible because it's never been done.
Actually, on second thought, good job on maintaining the status quo.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - George Bush
I laid out the ground rules with my 10 year old daughter. The usual, pretty much Jamie's list above.
Then one day I get an email from some site saying that they couldn't comply with *my* request to authorize my daughters account for something or other unless via snailmail.
She'd forged an email from me (not hard... it's a family PC running 'doze) and tried to say "I forgot my password. Please authorize....". Luckily the site required snailmail confirmation in that situation.
Needless to say, there was a discussion about responsibility and lying... I let her know that it would be some time before I could trust her fully online again, and oh, yes... she was grounded from the computer for a week, and after that, she was not allowed online for a month without me or my wife literally looking over her shoulder...
Still better than filtering...
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
The easiset way to keep your child (or rather your wife's) from viewing dubious websites without censoring her is to teach her how to use it in a way that will not yeild too much of that material
though really your asking for the impossible.