Slashdot Mirror
Linux-Based OS For Palm Hardware
slash.monster writes: "I was reading through Canadian Newswire today and came across this. Quoted from their press release: 'Linux DA O/S replaces the Palm O/S within the actual handheld device but
still remains fully compatible with Palm's hardware, proving that Linux DA O/S is a flexible and powerful operating system. Using the open source Linux kernel, Empower Technologies has designed Linux DA O/S to be the first Linux compatible O/S scaled down for the Motorola Dragonball CPU platform used by Palm handhelds.'"
"I've got a Palm Vx, but I'm gonna get some friends to check this out. Should be interesting to see if thier claims are true." There is a free DEMO (their caps) version to download, says the release, but the final version will be payware.
Now I can exploit the true speed my Linux Palm OS emulator. My Palm OS apps will never be faster!
I want palm OS on a desktop.
This sounds really great.
Now all I have to do is hook this up to my scanner.. oh, umm, nevermind.
OK, I can understand a repeat story here and there, but this is getting *ridiculous*. I don't even think it's that important of a story, but for the last few weeks you'd think its the top thing on everyones mind. Speaking on behalf of all the readers, we have read it once, twice, three times, we understand, "The Page Cannot be Displayed". Why does this article have to be posted every hour? I think we're all well-versed by now that, yes, the page we are looking for is currently unavailable. And while it is also true that the Web site might be experiencing technical difficulties, and rumors abound that we may need to adjust our browser settings, is there any reason to continue to pound it into our heads? Your tips section does no good either. I have clicked the refresh button, the same story loads. Your information that some sites require 128-bit connection security does come timely as security is very important in this day and age, but I think if we've read it once, we've read it 1,000 times, literally. So let's go for a little more communication between the editors or something, because by this point surely we all know, "The page cannot be displayed".
I want to see screenshots of the apps. If I can't seamlessly move from PalmOS Phonebook to LinuxDA Phonebook, then LinuxDA is *NOT READY FOR RELEASE TO ANYONE*.
Make it seamless from v1.0, or make a lot of disappointment. Maybe they've got a good handle on this issue, but in case they dont: it needs to be addressed as a priority from LinuxDA Version 1.0 onwards...
I want to know what sort of tools for development on LinuxDA are available *now*. Are they as good as the PalmOS tools that are available too? If it's not super brainfart easy to develop apps for the LinuxDA environment, without any monkery, then it should be... as soon as possible.
I look forward to checking this out a bit more when the download becomes available. As a developer for Palm, this sort of thing is very interesting...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I don't presume it because it's different, I just don't want to move to PalmDA and have difficulty with my *HUGE* contact databases on the new environment.
It's sorta like the MS Word/.DOC situation, you know what I mean? It's not the app that matters, its the fileformat.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Right now, there's no Perl. Once Perl is installed, everything is balanced in the world.
--
WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
The linuxda website has a minimal info page at http://www.linuxda.com/products/os.html
I really wonder, though, if my Palm m100 is someplace I want to run Linux. PalmOS works fine, and does the intended job. If it ain't broke....
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Pablo Picasso
Umm, you aren't paying attention very well. That license applies to the site in general. It also has a neat little phrase in it :
"non-commercial internal use only unless specifically licensed to do otherwise by Empower Technologies Inc .
So, if I download a linux kernel, that is something that would have to be GPL'ed, which is a specific licence to do otherwise.
--
I don't mean that the app does not need documentation. I'm saying that putting it in RTF and PDF files is silly. .ZIP instead of .EXE so Linux and Mac users could extract and use them.
HTML or text files would have worked just fine.
Also it would have been better for them to package the files as a
Why do I need to *install* 3 stand alone files?
I'm sorry that I did not do a good job of communicating my point(s).
Disclaimer: I have not used a Palm device in over a year. I don't have one to test this on.
/. them. Pretty sneaky!
Inside the 4.6 MB are 3 files, the ROM @ 983K, and RTF file for the install docs @ 1.9MB and a PDF for the OS manual at 1 MB.
Pretty silly to have 3MB of docs for a 983K ROM. It smacks of Windows Bloated thinking.
The install guide is pretty basic. Backup your exiting OS and then flash the new ROM...
The OS guide is simple and basic. If you've used a Palm then you don't need it.
I could find nothing in the docs that tells me why this is any better than PalmOS. There are plenty of screen shots, but nothing that makes me think this is Linux. It just looks like a generic PDA GUI.
There's no sign of X or GNU or anything else you'd expect to see on any Linux box.
According to the docs the demo is missing alot of stuff that's in the full package. It looks like the PC side (Palm Desktop) is missing. There's no games either.
There is no mention of connectivity besides with the desktop and beaming stuff to other Palms. They don't even mention 'email'.
Based on what I've seen I'm underwhelmed by the whole thing. If I had a Palm I would not waste my time installing this on it.
Of course when somebody really installs it maybe they'll see something exciting about it that I've missed from the docs.
My guess is the company really just wanted to load test their servers so they unleashed this to get us to
But once you have received the binary, not only are they obligated to provide the source, but you can redistribute it without any obligation to them. Your only obligation is to the GPL.
They can only control reverse engineering and distribution of their code. In other words, code which is not a derivative of any GPL software. Their calendars, address books, perhaps even their handwriting recognition can all be theirs, but the kernel and the kernel's port to the hardware is certainly GPL, ditto for gcc cross compilers, special implementations of languages etc. I won't however get into the thorny issue of binary modules. That's a whole other mess.
This may mean that all the good stuff is legitimately protected... like how to flash your palm, handwriting recognition or the conduit sync software.
Sorry, IIIe's didn't have a flash ROM (kept costs down), so no, it won't work on a IIIe.
Check out the many open source PalmOS apps at http://www.palmopensource.com/ Don't forget the nifty VNC client for Palm http://www.harakan.btinternet.co.uk/PalmVNC/index. htm
---
I just grabbed a copy and unpacked it using the Windows-only unpacker (nice choice...) and got the licensing agreement window telling me I couldn't distribute any derivative works of whatever was in there. That sounds like it goes 100% against the GPL...
Posted from the wireless couch.
And the Agenda isn't slow?
I have one, and in a lot of ways it's a neat toy. But using it for real work is nearly impossible, partly because of the ridiculous region-context-dependent handwriting recognition, and partly because it is slow, slow, slow.
It's really too bad that they decided to run X on it--not that I have any hard data, but I suspect the performance would be a lot better if they'd used something like GtkFB.
spawn_of_yog_sothoth
I should add this, which makes this look like an even smaller operation than it already does:
.com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
.COM, .NET, .ORG, .EDU domains and
$ whois linuxda.com
[whois.crsnic.net]
Whois Server Version 1.3
Domain names in the
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.
Domain Name: LINUXDA.COM
Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC.
Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com
Name Server: ANTARES.STARCON.COM
Name Server: STARRUNNER.STARCON.COM
Updated Date: 17-apr-2000
>>> Last update of whois database: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 01:56:11 EDT
The Registry database contains ONLY
Registrars.
[whois.networksolutions.com]
The Data in Network Solutions' WHOIS database is provided by Network
Solutions for information purposes, and to assist persons in obtaining
information about or related to a domain name registration record.
Network Solutions does not guarantee its accuracy. By submitting a
WHOIS query, you agree that you will use this Data only for lawful
purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this Data to:
(1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass
unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail
(spam); or (2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes
that apply to Network Solutions (or its systems). Network Solutions
reserves the right to modify these terms at any time. By submitting
this query, you agree to abide by this policy.
Registrant:
LEUNG, PAUL (LINUXDA-DOM)
UNIT 120, 13551 VERDUN PLACE
RICHMOND, BC V6V 1W5,
CA
Domain Name: LINUXDA.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact:
LEUNG, PAUL (PLJ76) aem_admin@AMIPO.COM
LEUNG, PAUL
UNIT 120, 13551 VERDUN PLACE
RICHMOND
BC
V6V 1W5
CA
604 649 8883 (FAX) 604 278 3102
Record last updated on 17-Apr-2000.
Record expires on 16-Dec-2001.
Record created on 16-Dec-1999.
Database last updated on 18-Jul-2001 21:35:00 EDT.
Domain servers in listed order:
STARRUNNER.STARCON.COM 207.230.244.2
ANTARES.STARCON.COM 208.181.131.6
-
Learn to use the tools, children:
.com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
.COM, .NET, .ORG, .EDU domains and
$ whois empower-technologies.com
[whois.crsnic.net]
Whois Server Version 1.3
Domain names in the
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.
Domain Name: EMPOWER-TECHNOLOGIES.COM
Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC.
Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com
Name Server: ANTARES.STARCON.COM
Name Server: STARRUNNER.STARCON.COM
Updated Date: 13-feb-2001
>>> Last update of whois database: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 02:02:47 EDT
The Registry database contains ONLY
Registrars.
[whois.networksolutions.com]
The Data in Network Solutions' WHOIS database is provided by Network
Solutions for information purposes, and to assist persons in obtaining
information about or related to a domain name registration record.
Network Solutions does not guarantee its accuracy. By submitting a
WHOIS query, you agree that you will use this Data only for lawful
purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this Data to:
(1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass
unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail
(spam); or (2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes
that apply to Network Solutions (or its systems). Network Solutions
reserves the right to modify these terms at any time. By submitting
this query, you agree to abide by this policy.
Registrant:
LINUX DA INC. (EMPOWERTECHNOLOGIES2-DOM)
Unit 120, 13551 Verdun Place
RICHMOND, B.C. V6V 1W5
CA
Domain Name: EMPOWER-TECHNOLOGIES.COM
Administrative Contact, Billing Contact:
LINUX DA INC. (LD2286-ORG) no.valid.email@worldnic.net
LINUX DA INC.
Unit 120, 13551 Verdun Place
RICHMOND, B.C. V6V 1W5
CA
604 278 3100 fax: 604 278 3102
Technical Contact:
WorldNIC Name Host (HOST-ORG) namehost@WORLDNIC.COM
Network Solutions, Inc.
505 Huntmar Park Drive
Herndon, VA 20170-5142
1-888-642-9675
Record last updated on 13-Feb-2001.
Record expires on 18-Jan-2002.
Record created on 18-Jan-2001.
Database last updated on 18-Jul-2001 05:14:00 EDT.
Domain servers in listed order:
STARRUNNER.STARCON.COM 207.230.244.2
ANTARES.STARCON.COM 208.181.131.6
-
Look here at their FAQ:
http://www.uclinux.org/pub/uClinux/FAQ.html#2-5
I can't figure out if Linux DA has the same or similiar problems though.
Does any one have the skinny on this?
Until you get it right, apparently :-)
The GPL states that you must OFFER the source code with the distribution. Your offer may refer to another method of actually obtaining the source code, but the consumer must be appraised of his or her rights at the time of distribution. (term 3b)
In addition, it must be accompanied by a copy of the GPL. (term 1 included by reference in term 3)
Therefore if the operating system comes to you without a copy of the GPL, or without a written offer to provide the source code or notice of where the source code can be obtained, then one of the following two statements must be true:
1) It's not Linux-based, and therefore although it may be distributed legally it's advertised fraudulently.
2) It is Linux-based, but it's being distributed illegally, as the copy of the GPL and offer of source code is required in order to comply with the terms of the GPL, and you may not distribute a derivative work of Linux unless you distribute it according to the terms of the GPL.
I tried the exact same thing, got the same error and the blank screen. I also noticed that the emulator was using up all my CPU...it seems its gone into some infy-loop.
anyone else try this?
Ghoul
Sigura Non Grata
You can't wrap the GPL in an EULA and absolve yourself of all responsibility to the code developers. That's why Microsoft doesn't like open source, because they have no way of making it proprietary.
aÍÍ©ÍÌÍ£Ì'̽ͩÌÍzÍYÌÍÌY
IANAL but I don't see how this is a legal breach of the GPL, a person voluntarily gives up their rights.
You are somewhat correct. The GPL allows developers to change the license of their code if they are in 100% agreement with each other about the changes. This is not the issue at play.
This product is using a Linux back-end, and Linux is GPL'd. When they officially release they will have to provide the Linux kernel developers with any changes they made to the GPL'd Linux kernel code. When a company makes a decision to use code produced under a certain license, they agree to abide by the terms of that license. If they do not furnish their code changes (as the GPL states they must), it can be said to be a breach of their implied agreement to the terms of the GPL.
Short Answer: "No. They can't write a clause into their EULA to trump the GPL."
Does that clear things up?
aÍÍ©ÍÌÍ£Ì'̽ͩÌÍzÍYÌÍÌY
Authors (ie copyright holders) changing licencing is not "allowed" by the GPL. The GPL has no say in the matter, as copyright holders they (collectively) are not bound by the GPL, they already have full rights to do whatever they like with the code.
This is precisly what I said.
"The GPL allows developers to change the license of their code if they are in 100% agreement with each other about the changes."
All this means is that a product that is licensed under the GPL can't have its license changed without the consent of everyone who has contributed code. This needs to be mentioned as the viral nature of the GPL makes changing the license on a piece of software, in practice, difficult to acheive.
Quit being so bloody contrarian.
The sole reason an EULA can't limit the rights granted by the GPL is that the GPL forbids it.
If an EULA could trump the license on any piece of software, it would be the death of the industry. If you release a shareware product, I could write a new license for it, distribute it, and start making your money.
aÍÍ©ÍÌÍ£Ì'̽ͩÌÍzÍYÌÍÌY
No it isn't, you said "The GPL allows" which would suggest to someone who doesn't know better that there is a clause in the GPL that allows authors to change their licencing. This is not the case, they have that right simply because they are the copyright holder(s).
The GPL doesn't explicitly deny changing the license, therefore "the GPL allows..." is a perfectly correct thing to say, even if it's not 100% clear to you.
Why don't you go eat a Vegemite sandwich, you daft Aussie?
aÍÍ©ÍÌÍ£Ì'̽ͩÌÍzÍYÌÍÌY
...your post has stirred the desire for Vegemite, perhaps I'll buy some tomorrow if I still feel this way.
So Australians actually enjoy consuming Vegemite? The web site seems to imply that Vegemite should be appriciated more for its health benefits, as opposed to its taste or colo(u)r.
What exactly is in Vegemite, anyway? It seems to be some sort of bizarre yeast-extract brown toast paste, that doesn't look at all appitizing, even in the publicity photos. Even more bothering is the fact that Vegemite is produced by Kraft, a company that we in America still trust to make edible food products, despite the fact that they're pushing cancer sticks on us, and what appears to be toxic waste in their Austrailian market.
Hmmmmmm...
That's it! It's cigarette tar!
If I have seemed pedantic with you it is because I am being pedantic.
* Shrug *
If you're looking for something wrong with my posts, you're bound to find it. Nothing new...
aÍÍ©ÍÌÍ£Ì'̽ͩÌÍzÍYÌÍÌY
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
And I have a bunch more questions that a lot of other people will ask. But if anyone has any details, please share. I've been wating to dust off my old Palm (aye, there's a joke in there somewhere). If this is cheap enough and has enough functionality, I might just try it.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
can't find info on whether this needs to be put in the firmware, or if the visor can run it out of RAM
-- My Sig is a P228.
I just sent Empower an email asking how they plan to handle licensing of the modifications of the GPLed Linux kernel. It will be intersting to see what the response will be.
As long as they're not violating the kernel license I might pick this up for my Palm. As someone else pointed out the cost of the Palm + Linux DA might be cheaper then one of the Linux dedicated PDAs.
I just did a page on this very thing:
http://mmdc.net/p/ssh.html
Hope this helps -
Jim in Tokyo
MMDC Mobile Media
-- My Weblog.
I see that some other posters have touched on some of these questions; namely, what sort of licensing this product will be released under. I understand that the majority of their code is probably internally developed applications and libraries but I would think you'd still have some hint of derivative works and some of those might be linked to GPL or LGPL libraries/code... it just seems a little odd, to me. I hope to hear back from them with regards to the licensing questions I've asked (via fax, phone, and email) but we'll have to see on that one.
The biggest concern here for me is that they are positioning their firm to license out their code to embedded product designers/manufacturers- I'd personally hate to blindly license some product for a firm that is later found out to be violating IP laws, as that would most likely have some negative impact upon my company and my products. To me these people seem to smell kind of like MOSIX, at least at first blush. I hope that my first suspicions are incorrect!
EOM
What is Linux DA?
Linux DA refers to the suite of Linux-based software developed by Empower Technologies Inc., an innovative company based out of Redmond, Washington.
Well, that explains the licensing...Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. --Albert Einstein
These guys did NOT port Linux to the palm; it's already been done. They may have put something together to make it install easier, they may have developed some-palm type apps,which would be god...
But, given the propaganda-like marketroid speak they use, I'd say they are mainly trying to cash in looking like a linux player.
Enough people misunderstand the GPL already without yet more misinformation being spread by people such as yourself. If you are going to give licence advice you should be sure that what you say reflects exactly what the licence says, not just the general "vibe" of the licence.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Licencing issues are of fundamental importance to the workings of Open Source/Free Software and as such I think it is important that people be presented with correct information and that incorrect or misleading information is corrected where possible. If I have seemed pedantic with you it is because I am being pedantic. Something as important to the community as licencing deserves pedantry, not vague statements. I'm neither Australian, nor daft. Having said that, your post has stirred the desire for Vegemite, perhaps I'll buy some tomorrow if I still feel this way.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
The sole reason an EULA can't limit the rights granted by the GPL is that the GPL forbids it. If they do impose such an EULA they are either in breach of licence (the GPL) or (if they claim not to have agreed to the GPL) in breach of copyright (for distributing the software without licence to do so).
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
That "license" agreement is for the web site, not LinuxDA.
Perhaps it's the first complete distro, or something, but I highly doubt they did all this by themselves. Remember ucLinux?
It doesn't prevent the developer from creating their own closed source extensions and charge for that, no? Perhaps that is what they are doing and you can just download the linux kernel and there's your source from wherever you linux people download it. :)
---
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
A Linux set top box? There's TiVo.
A Linux kernel IS an OS. Maybe you meant that someone would add assorted GPL applications, much as a Linux kernel isn't of much use without bash, tar, vim, ld, init...
Does it have graffiti? If not, it's a big step down from PalmOS and what's the point?
A score of 2?!?!?! Come on, this is funny, and deserves at least a 4!
"Send an Instant Karma to me" - Yes
That's the funniest damn thing I've seen all day.
No, the kernel is (mostly) GPLed. Linus does have a somewhat more liberal interpretation of the linking issue than many others, though. As for the impact, AFAICT, LinuxDA is, in fact, in violation of the GPL, though it's a messy issue and I'm too tired to think about it clearly right now.
ok every body stop downloading it. Its my turn I'll let you know when you can slashdot it again :)
:)
Good thing I have wget
I don't use eleetism in my Email
But the serial cord and the keyboard uses the same hotsync port. Sucky i know. You can only have a connected keyboarded palm III if you use IR for the network connection, which doesn't sound like much fun. Wonder if you can hack a splitter off the keyboard?
Sure. Download the Palm OS Emulator, ask Palm for a ROM file, or search on Gnutella for one, and go.
Runs on linux, runs on windows, runs on macs as well, I believe.
Any chance this could run on my super-old "professional" PalmPilot? I mean, I can't seem to find any software for it since it's PalmOS 1.x(or is it 2?)
If I had moderator, I would have modded up this post. :)
But seriously, to reiterate what you've just said, who wants linux in a PDA? After using PalmOS extensively, I have to admit it is both shiny and extremely functional given the constraints. A palmtop is not a command-line environment. Multi-threading is not exactly high on my list when there's nothing important to be running in the background (MP3 player, compilation, terminal session... which of these do we actually do on a palmtop?).
So if the Linux environment is not desirable on the PDA it must just be the political "we want a free OS on everything" camp speaking up, or the rabid "Linux everywhere!" enthusiasts. I don't see the Agenda taking off; it's about a generation old hardware-wise, and such a niche that neither Palm developers nor WinCE developers will likely switch over and start writing apps there.
What must be annoying people is the fact that the Palm software market seems to be not too dissimilar from the Windows market: hundreds of powerful applications with difficult to explain purposes costing lots of money, and thousands of decent to crappy shareware and freeware products that do usually one or two things of utility. Linux applications by and large have a single purpose to which they're well-suited, well-crafted software. This is not the case in the Windows or PalmOS worlds. Check out download.com: there's 10 or more crummy editors, each with it's little gimmick. But there's only one Mp3 normalizing tool, and it sucks. When I left the palm market a year ago, there were four or five "launcher" programs, but only two Doc viewers (rather important), both nagware.
It's a moot point, I think. People who have used the platform will recognize that Palm has an advantage because they truly do craft a fine OS. Performance tweaking on a Palm is unlikely to be noticed except by palm gamers (a rare breed). Everything great about Linux is wasted on that environment except the freedom. Linux acceptance on this market is surely distant. The real crime is that the PRC tools are freely available on the Palm and there seems to be next to no GNU development on the non-free platform. Again, this is mirrored in the Windows world where the only GNU-licensed programs I can and do run are VIM, OpenRPG and WinJab.
Daniel
daBears, daBulls...
I turn on my palm and it says:
[user@palm user]$ _
Now what?
Anyone know about compatibility with the various Handspring models?
They list a price tag of $39.99 for the "Consumer" package, and $59.99 for the "Professional" package. Both are available for the Palm IIIx/IIIxe and Palm Vx.
(Seems to me that this is a severely limited subset of all the Palm platforms that are out there...)
The Consumer pacakge comes with your standard apps, ToDo, Expense, etc, and the Professional package adds their SDK.
Of course, they have no screen shots or other means to evaluate how well the apps replace those available with PalmOS, and no details on how to install. I'd want those details before I'd commit $60, even if I did get a free t-shirt from their amazingly annoying blinking ad.
Perhaps they are refering to the applications software that seems to be the meat of the product. I tried finding out more about it but stopped after I saw the big honking !!!! BLINK !!! tags on the store page.
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
If we can get the OS in Desktops to be irrelevant, we can stop the suits specifying Micro$oft operating systems.
We can just have computers that work - or is this blasphemy again?
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
Perhaps, but in that case it's rather misleading. Read it carefully. They write about ''software found on [this site]''.
But yes, probably that's just a mistake and the Linux kernel will be free and GPL as usual, but all the softwares on top of it will not. Probably you can't even develop software for it without their cossstly SDK. Much use, not.
Pay...ware? Linux? Me not understand?
The site www.linuxda.com says:
Excuse me, but I thought Linux is under the GPL license or something?
Dada.
that releases a product that uses the linux kernel but violates the GPL. This could spell big trouble for Empower Technologies, which would be great PR for another company from Redmond, WA.
--
-- SIGFPE
So, once you download the binary, you can send them an email saying "hey, I have the binary of your software, it's GPL, please give me the code"
Then, if they don't give you the code, that's when they are violating the GPL.
--
Free Mac Mini
...coming right after CmdrTaco's rant of the month?
Got Rhinos?
So I guess people haven't come lining up in advance to code for this new platform yet.
They say they've got a GUI and handwriting recognition and an SDK and so forth, which is nice. No talk about hotsync hardware, which I find interesting. They claim to have their demo up for downloading in 90 minutes, so fine, we can see the rest for ourselves then, but I have a few big questions...
How much of linux is there besides (presumably) some of the kernel? libs? shells? networking?
And, can they, and will they, do app-level compatibility with palmOS?
We're on the road to Tycho.
i imagine that this will be useful for a terminal machine. just plug one end into the serial cable, the other into the machine. with one of those ethernet adapters (palm has some, right?), you could get a little ssh/telnet client going, would be sweet. then you'd need one of those little folding keyboards, but it would work. and i hope the battery life stays up there too. this kind of thing just might make me break down and buy one.
might
Do you see the sig? Do you have it in your sights? Why yes, Miss Moneypenny...
Seems Empower is playing VERY fast-and-loose with the GPL here.
Specifically, with some very MS-sounding
Maybe Linus needs to send the a letter regarding use of HIS trademark
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins,
utter rubbish
Their site seems to be full of pr talk, and lets face it the linux comunity is not know for their love of PR talk
but the folowing statement cracked me up :
"..Empower Technologies Inc., an innovative company based out of Redmond, Washington.."
42
Holy Budda. The Linux/Slashdot community has just become a 'great nation;' it's advanced enough to discriminate against random people based on their origin. This is one of several posts trying to insinuate (or flat out claim) that being in Redmond is somehow damning. It frightens me. The mistakes of others indeed... Why do I have a sudden image of a rainstorm, a muddy road, and a wrought iron gate. As I look up the gate, I can make out words: "Arbeit macht Frei (wieleicht Bier) Software"
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
i take issue with your claim that palm freeware is "crappy". both ...
vindigo and avantgo are extremely useful free tools. the former is available for palm only.
I believe you're out of luck. From what I understand, they are replacing the ROM and that can only be done in Palms with Flash-based ROMs (i.e. the IIIxe, IIIx but NOT the IIIe).
Ex-Palm IIIe owner (replaced it last week with a Handera 330).
Neither do ANY of the Handsprings!
d00dz!!!
imagine a Beowulf Cluster of these!
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
So now we've got linux on a Palm Pilot. Why would we want this instead of Palm OS, which does the job pretty darn well? Are there other applications of the Dragonball processor that I don't know about?
--
In spite of the suggestions and all the tests that I have made, I have not cavato a spider from the hole.
Since its LinuxDA, shouldn't you have said. Can I run daGimp on daPalm with daLinux?
----
And although this may go against the grain of the OSF and FSF people out there, myself included, this is exactly the thing we need the public to understand to get past this 'viral' outlook that M$ has decided to slap on us. I say three cheers for capitalism and the right to share and share alike! We can take any of the kernel adaptations and use them, and make our own set of programs(address box, calender etc). This is how new markets come about!
Linux DA is the dominant software platform for the Consumer Electronics Industry.
Ummm What? Ive never heard of "Linux DA", how did it slip past and become *the* "dominant sw platform"?
Lies, Damn Lies and Marketing. I hate PR speak...
perl -e "print(pack('h36', '772786f6465637043716e6e22727e236f6d6'))"
you get the optimal value (instead of the current value of h38). However, if you use 'h35', instead, you get nothing displayed(!). Yet, using 'h34' or 'h33' on down, displays your string with one character fewer (for each decrease in 'h' repetition).
I find that odd.
...how Palm feels about all of this.
Linux-Based OS For Palm Hardware
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.
Blarf.
It'll never pan out. Linux will never be mainstream enough. *cough*
Considering there is already some GPL software available for Palm OS, and that it is trivial to obtain development tools for Palm OS, I don't see why anyone would want to load their funky Linux OS on a PDA only to have it become encumbered with a bunch of non-Free software. I mean, are we all looking to get a multi-tasking, multi-user OS on our Palms that bad? I know I'm not. Especially since I've already paid the Palm tax to have the Palm OS come preinstalled on the device. :)
I do not have a signature
Their website says 'except as provided in the licenses of individual components' or somesuch, so theoretically the GPL trumps their whole EULA. But to be sure, this is at least very confusing.
Bryguy
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
Empower Technologies Inc.
Redmond, WA
USA
Tel: 425.881.0909
Fax: 425.881.0889
Funny, they have no street address. Furthermore, they're listed as "Empower Technologies / Rdm" on the yellow pages.
The only reason I can think of for them not wanting to state their address is because they're ashamed of it, or because they strategically want to hide it. And the only address I'd be ashamed of or I'd want to hide strategically in Redmond is "1, Microsoft Way".
I wonder if ... no, it cannot be ! Maybe Empower Technologies is an offshot from Microsoft trying to take the palm market over using ... LINUX ! ARRGH SOMEBODY STOP THEM !!!
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
yeah, I know. but usually, people who plan to give out the source wouldn't want to have a bunch of emails to deal with, so they post it. And these people aren't. And there's no way everything GPL just compiled without changes and they only added external non-GPL stuff to it. So I find it slightly surprising that there's not even a mention. You'll notice my original post didn't accuse them of GPL violation -- it just expressed a large amount of incredulity for any plans of theirs to stay within the GPL. I could be wrong and all. In fact, I'd like to be. forgive me if I have a large dose of cynicism toward companies I haven't heard of before.
OK, it's Linux, right? which means GPL. SO, where are GPL info? not on the site. There's not a copy of the GPL, not a mention of it, and they provide an email address for licensing info (sales@linuxda.com). Legal info is here, and does not suggest GPL at all. Of course, the software won't be availble for 1 1/2 hours as of this writing, so it might change, but I have to wonder what's going on. I think that if (when?) binary-only copies appear I'll send an email. Anyone care to correct any of this?
Multitasking
Also multihreading
---
MOD THE CHILD UP!
It's available for download now.. the download is 4.45 megs approx. but only the version for Palm IIIx and IIIxe are up now.
Has anyone gotten this to work in the emulator? All i get is an debug message about an application wrighting to 0xFFFFFA36 and a blank screen.
I have a STB-1030,websurfer, running Linux, no problem, nice to play xmame on the tv :-) Even better with my Neo-Geo joystick etc etc :-)
/.
I also have a Virgin WebPlayer running Linux for my folks.
Check out www.linux-hacker.net or search on goggle or search on
StoneWolf
Wouldn't it be a riot if they did this without considering the license, and always just assumed that they would be able to sell tons of copies? We'd have the egg-on-his-face CEO, the conniving developers who didn't bother to mention the GPL while they ported and hacked, and the shamed-out-of-work designers. "We didn't know!" they'd say.
They'd be the new poster child for the Microsoft anti-GPL FUD campaign.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
The above reply is so wrong on so many fronts:
1. What sane person would want to run decades-old text-based applications on something with no keyboard and a 3" screen? If you have to play Zork on it, it's been ported to the PalmOS already.
2. Linux bears ittle resemblence to the Unix of 30 years ago, which was written in DEC PDP-7 assembly language, had no pipes, and no support for networking, among many other basic differences.
3. I've been doing embedded system development since 1980 and the Palm is *not* an embedded system. It may be something that some hobbyist could duct tape to some homemade robot, but that does not make it into an embedded system.
4. There is no problem with the PalmOS and it is perfectly suited to the device. If you doubt me, explain the plethora of small, efficient, graphical apps that are readily available for it.
This is just another look-what-we-ported-Linux-to project. It does not serve a useful purpose. There is no glaring deficiency in PalmOS or the apps available for it. Now tell me what you need it to do that it cannot.
make me seem like a '1337 h4x0r!
Good reply and a great one-line summary of the real reason that many people are hyped about this.
Who cares if you can't use standard Palm apps and lose all of the functionality of the Palm as a handheld organizer? It's all worth it when you can enter ls -l with the stylus and watch cryptically named files scroll past (in a smeary, LCD kind of way).
Can I still sync up to my M$ Outlook? :)
Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right-- But They Make Me Feel A Whole Lot Better
That's easy, a core dump. On a serious note it will be interesting to see how well this product is received. An existing Palm user (someone who uses it and doesn't just own one) if they are like me probably has a core set of applications that they have purchased and are quite happy with. There are much more Palm apps than Linux PDA apps out there and Palm OS comes with your Palm installed and ready to go.
'Same speed C but faster'
Why the hell would you want Linux on a PDA? What use is it?
The Kernal used by PalmOS can in fact already do multitasking and multithreading. It is effectively disabled as it serves no useful purpose on a PDA. When will you Linux types stop dropping in buzzwords that you have no clue about?
Pic1
Pic2
You might say that it's not worthwhile running multiple applications at once due to the small screen. I agree that it isn't practical to run two full applications at once. But how about a spellchecker/dictionary that has a small UI running at the same time as your typical Notes application. Or a search box that looks up names and email addresses for you.
-Sean
Damn. That sucks.
/. effect I guess cuz it could only cough up about 1.8k/sec...
Before I read your reply I tried downloading... their server is seeing a bit of
___
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
The demo can be downloaded in exactly 1 hour from right now right here.
;-)
Does anyone know if Palm IIIx compatibility means Palm IIIe compatibility? Because if it doesn't, my interest level is dropping fast.
(proud Palm IIIe owner
___
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
Have you actually done this yet? I tried it on my Palm IIIxe and can't get back to PalmOS. The instructions for returning to PalmOS only work for Palm Vx. I tried both the Palm IIIxe *and* the Palm Vx "kit" and both just talk about restoring a Vx (it requires a Vx specific .exe from Palm.com).
see:
http://www.linuxda.com/legal.html
hmmm, they don't sound the most open source of people. Presumably they'll have to release the kernel part under GPL but I dare say all the other stuff (address box, calender etc) were developed in house and so they can license them any damn way they like - much like Tivo in fact.
And I am very excited about this news. I got my palm for $160, and most Linux handhelds are a little more expensive then that :)
This means I can install Linux without changing hardware. I wonder if the Linux OS for Palm comes with dual boot for the current Palm OS. A dual boot handheld....that would be awesome!
Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero.
Well, I have an Agenda with a 66Mhz MIPS processor. Running Linux on a DragonBall might be a tad slow, IMHO. Berowne.
Nice. LinuxDA site uses tag.
http://www.linuxda.com/store/index.html
OK, sounds like a great idea and lots of fun, but why? Could you run GIMP or something like that on this OS? You can already write your own apps for the Palm OS, so why bother installing the Linux OS?
On the other hand, a device which could use a Linux OS is digital set top boxes. Somebody put Linux on those so we can have decent functionality, please!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ now you know
only for the palm IIIx and IIIe? I guess the palm III and V users are SOL?
If God gave us curiosity
Lets see it from the small side...
Why do we use Linux?
Its difficult to grasp (at first 8), you can tinkle with it no end, the license from anyone is quite cheap and MOST APPS ARE FOR FREE !
Please make some calculations and you'll see how much softs cost. And I don't speak about Word or Access... More Softimage and Oracle...
On my Linux, I can get most soft for free, adapt them...
You PDA is just another "pay for it" OS.
anytime you want to add something, you have to pay. or code. or steal. 8|
Linux PDA, free apps, connectivity...
Well, I'll buy one the day it works as a TV remote 8)
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
I haven't read through everyones comments to see if sombody else noticed this yet, but does this scare you?
;)
..just my 2 cents...
Linux DA refers to the suite of Linux-based software developed by Empower Technologies Inc., an innovative company based out of Redmond, Washington.
Is it just me, or am I right to be suddenly worried? And whats this thing about innovation from Readmond?
----------
What can Linux do on a Palm device that PalmOS already does admirably well?
Christina! Bring me an axe!
Interesting: You are assuming that you won't be a productive on the new OS as on the old palm OS and will have to wait for an upgrade to be able to do all the things you currently do. Being a non-palm user, I find this intrigueing that people presume that just because it is different.
I want to know what sort of tools for development on LinuxDA are available *now*. Are they as good as the PalmOS tools that are available too? If it's not super brainfart easy to develop apps for the LinuxDA environment, without any monkery, then it should be... as soon as possible. Good point. My question is, will they develop a big enough market for people to develop for it.
----
Just because a bunch of people believe or do something stupid, doesn't make it any less stupid.
According to WhoIs: LINUX DA INC. (EMPOWERTECHNOLOGIES2-DOM) Unit 120, 13551 Verdun Place RICHMOND, B.C. V6V 1W5 CA Domain Name: EMPOWER-TECHNOLOGIES.COM UNIT 120, 13551 VERDUN PLACE RICHMOND, BC V6V 1W5, CA Domain Name: LINUXDA.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact: LEUNG, PAUL (PLJ76) aem_admin@AMIPO.COM LEUNG, PAUL UNIT 120, 13551 VERDUN PLACE RICHMOND BC V6V 1W5 CA 604 649 8883 (FAX) 604 278 3102
From linuxda, let me quote the obvious: "The first Linux compatible O/S scaled down for..."
Linux Compatible? As opposed to a flavor of Linux?
(Yes, I did see the words "Using the open-source Linux kernel..."), but it does lead to some interesting speculation.
(Also parenthetically, regarding GNU/Linux vs. Linux kernel, is the kernel specifically non-GPL? Does that have bearing in this case?)
Slashdot: Everything in Moderation, including Moderation itself.
"Third-party developers are welcome to join the Linux DA movement."
This isn't a movement; it's a corporation trying to excite Linux advocates and developers alike, in order to promote their product, by claiming that it is somehow revolutionary... and has started a movement...
If you go to the linux store you see that they are chargeing 59.99 for it... and it comes with sync software.http://www.linuxda.com/store/index.html
ftp://ftp.newtontracker.net/pub/mirrors/LinuxDA_OS _for_Palm.exe
Download, and lets us test it's worth...
----
Carpman the Great - Guild of the Void Pointer
Ham Radio Opr: KD5HME | Keeper of the arcane derefrence
Guild of the Void Pointer
All your base are belong to us
Somebody set us up the bomb
Carpman the Great - Guild of the Void Pointer Ham Radio Opr: KD5HME | Keeper of the arcane derefrence Guild of the Voi
speaking of linux on handhelds, i was wondering if anyone of you know why companies chose linux over other operating systems? For instance, QNX is a really nice one. Doesnt take much space, and fits right into a single 1.44M floppy. Would this have anything to do with licences again?
i dont think people would use their palms to write endless perl code or chat on irc.... (yet)
my blog
Now I'll be able to hook my Palm up to my HP 3300C scanner....oh, wait a sec.....
Nitpick accepted. -grin- There are also spelling errors in the template letter I created.
Oh well.
"Don't worry about the problems you have in mathematics, I assure you mine are much greater." - Einstein c.1919
I just finished downloading and installing the image into my TRG Palm III. Of course, since the TRG units have a different offset to load the kernel, the image would not work.
I called linuxda customer support, and was connected to a gentleman called Michael. He was very pleasant, and I explained that I needed the source code (as required by GPL) to correct the issue and make the image work for me.
Verbatim :
Michael : "We have the image available for download. The source code is not going to be available."
Martin : "I am aware that your own programs are not under the GPL, however are you aware that you must release the source to the kernel and changes you have made to it, as well as the source code to any other GPL programs that may be in the image?"
Michael : "Yes, we are aware of it. We will make the source code for that available in a few weeks."
Martin : "Are you aware that this is something of great concern to both the linux and open source community?"
Michael : "We are aware. We want people to download [ the image ] first."
Martin : "Allright. Let me give you my email address, I would like to be notified as soon as the source for the GPL code becomes available."
Michael : "Yes, I will do that. Please send email to support@linuxda.com"
-----
In my opinion, the people in charge at Linux DA may not have realized how strong community backlash is when source code is not released. It would probably go very well for us if we sent a POLITE email to support@linuxda.com requesting that the source code for GPL code used be made available as soon as possible.
A possible form letter to use :
To Whom it May Concern,
I am a user/developer of open software. It concerns me greatly that your company has released a binary-only image of GPL'ed (Gnu Public Licence) software. Releasing and distributing GPL'ed software without simultanious release of the source code is in violation of the GPL licence.
I respectfully urge you to release and make available for general download the source code to any GPL code and modifications/patches your company has made to the code as soon as possible. As a user and/or developer of open source software, it is important to both myself and the community at large that the terms of the GPL be adhered to both in the sentiment, and letter of the law.
Sincerely,
(insert your name)/(email address)
"Don't worry about the problems you have in mathematics, I assure you mine are much greater." - Einstein c.1919
What does it enable?
Are you planning to port emacs? Apache?
The beauty of the Palm OS is that it's absolutely minimal. Everything you need, nothing you don't. And that's why Palm software gives you fast access to the info you need, and the batteries last forever.
Is an .exe file. What the heck
are we meant to do with that?!?