KDE 2.2.1 Up

Upgrading... by pirodude · 2001-09-18 14:28 · Score: 1

Does anyone know of a good doc on upgrading a kde 2.1.1 install (mandrake 8 standard) to a 2.2.1 without seriously breaking it. When I logged into the ftp server there were like 100 files that I was told to download. Yes, I'm going to Debian soon..just humor me here :)

Re:Upgrading... by PhreakinPenguin · 2001-09-18 14:33 · Score: 3, Informative

Why not just use MandrakeUpdate ? Simple and easy.

--

My sig of choice is Marlboro
Re:Upgrading... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 14:38 · Score: 0

I've got mandrake 8, and I just downloaded all the kde updated rpm's, and did a little rpm -U --force --nodeps. Works fine.

Then again, KDE is becoming horribly slow and boated, so the next day I made the great Exodus to blackbox.

Your Very Own Anonymous Coward
Re:Upgrading... by Mals · 2001-09-18 14:39 · Score: 1

I usually just install the src in to /usr. That's where all the mandrake kde binaries, shared files, etc are too. I just overwrite them
Re:Upgrading... by mgkimsal2 · 2001-09-18 15:20 · Score: 2

Personally I've never been able to find good HTTP sources for MandrakeUpdate - they're all in France and take megs just to update the packages they have, then inevitably they are versions behind in something I'm looking for. Anyone know of any good HTTP sources for MandrakeUpdate?

--
creation science book
Re:Upgrading... by RadioheadKid · 2001-09-18 18:24 · Score: 2, Informative

Last time I upgraded Mandrake 8.0 to KDE 2.2 and used urpmi as it says in the README and it worked perfectly. Its just kinda scary when you have to tell it to break all the dependancies.

--
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -Homer Simpson
Re:Upgrading... by psavo · 2001-09-18 18:51 · Score: 1

Simply because it's not 'apt' ;)

--
fucktard is a tenderhearted description
Re:Upgrading... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 19:09 · Score: 0

> Yes, I'm going to Debian soon..just humor me here :)

What a pathatic display of insecurity
Re:Upgrading... by KiwiSurfer · 2001-09-18 19:11 · Score: 1

There are some other nice alternatives such as {Free,Net,Open}BSD's ports/pkgsrc collections and so on.
Re:Upgrading... by unapersson · 2001-09-18 19:39 · Score: 1

Download the apt rpm. Install it.

Do:

apt-get update

then

apt-get -f upgrade

That's how I now keep my Mandrake up to date.
Re:Upgrading... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 20:13 · Score: 0

Mandrake is for a little girly-mon.

Agreed. Now I run Slackware, which is a mans distro. Nothing turns my girlfriend on more, than to watch me compile a kernel, or install Glibc from source!

Oh wait, no it doesn't, because it's a fucking Linux distribution, you drolling fucktard!!! Get a grip on reality!!!
Re:Upgrading... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 22:39 · Score: 0

KDE 2.2.1 is available in cooker, so you can upgrade thanks to urpmi with a cooker source.
Re:Upgrading... by the_2nd_coming · 2001-09-19 01:35 · Score: 1

I agree, when an updated package come out, mandrake update seems to take 1-2 months to get it on the server, then, because they hack the system appart, you get these wierd dependancy issues that can not be resolved unless you go to RPMfind. a good update system will group all packages for a single program together and include all Deps that will come up. hell, why not come up with a meta-package that will package the RPMs together into one Downloadable fiel that you know will include all the dependancies needed? If some oddball wants to only install somthing like KDEbase and none of the support Libs, then obviously he has the knowlege to compile his own from source or rebuild a source RPM, or he is just realy dumb and therefor does not need to have access to the system like that. also, I would like mandrake to move from a program for updating, a web based-microsoftish updater, atleast as an option fro people to go to.

any way, KDE is looking realy cool, I wish that they would maintain thierl ines a little longer to make sure the system is rock stable, perhaps they will have the time after the QT 3 move since they won't have to wory about structural rewrites(a-la 2.0) and binary breaking(a-la QT3), so they will be able to stay in a major release and slowly ad new features as they make the whole environment bullet proof, then when they do a major asthetic overhaul they can make a new major release number.

--

I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Re:Upgrading... by mgkimsal2 · 2001-09-19 01:53 · Score: 3, Interesting

hell, why not come up with a meta-package that will package the RPMs together into one Downloadable fiel that you know will include all the dependancies needed?

Cause then it would "be too much like Windows"(tm). May Linux developers seem to be hell-bent on avoiding even the tiniest hint of 'ease' when it comes to installing their packages (let alone using them). This is not a dig at the KDE folks per se, just my experiences in general. I've had IRC conversations trying to get answers to installation questions where the answer - on more than one occasion - was "if you just want to install something and use it - just go use Windows". The scary thing was they thought that was an insult.

--
creation science book
Re:Upgrading... by ethereal · 2001-09-19 02:07 · Score: 1

The answer to dependency problems is not to download everything at once just so you're sure you've got all the dependencies. For one thing, you probably don't want to replace certain packages on your system without warning or you may break more than you fix by doing so. Not to mention the extra bandwidth you'll chew up, although I agree that *that* is indeed the Windows way.
The right way to handle dependency problems is to have smart installers that can detect and arrange for the download of missed dependencies on an as-needed basis, querying you for permission if necessary. Debian already does this. So, if you want to install something and use it, use Debian.
I agree that Mandrake updates are a pain; that's why my next desktop will be running Debian.

--
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Re:Upgrading... by the_2nd_coming · 2001-09-19 04:15 · Score: 1

ok, an even simpler solution.....though it will cause great grief to thoughs that want to keep progrms small, static linking works well, no library hell. Mac does it like this and their progrmas run fine and well, plus you can move them where ever you want like a true object and not wory about breaking anything (except a link if you made one)

--

I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Re:Upgrading... by Spy+Hunter · 2001-09-19 05:15 · Score: 2

No, that's totally wrong. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by an inability to satisfy your request. Linux developers have nothing against easy installation.
The fact of the matter is, easy installation is 100 times harder to get right on Linux than it is on Windows. On Windows, everyone runs compatible versions of the same kernel. On Windows, everyone uses the same GUI. On Windows, everyone has a /Program Files directory. On Windows, you can always put .dlls in /windows/system. On Linux, none of this is true, incompatibilities are par for the course.
If you come up with a way to make package installation easy across distros, you'll be the hero of package users *and* makers alike. Debian is the only distro that gets it right.

--
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
Re:Upgrading... by oojah · 2001-09-19 05:58 · Score: 1

On Windows, everyone has a /Program Files directory. On Windows, you can always put .dlls in /windows/system.

Hate to break it to you, but these are both false statements. Ever use a German version of windows NT? It has \winnt\system (or \winnt\system32) and \Programmen. What Windows does provide, however, is means of finding these directories.

oojah

--
Do you have any better hostages?
Re:Upgrading... by Spy+Hunter · 2001-09-19 08:07 · Score: 1

I stand corrected. But you know what I mean :-)

--
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
Re:Upgrading... by be-fan · 2001-09-19 09:42 · Score: 2

Its not just the differences. The developers seem hell-bent on making installation difficult. For example, before Ximian (which takes a page out of Window's book) installing GNOME was a hell session of downloaded dozens of dependency RPMs. KDE still has tons of RPMs to install. Hell, upgrading my GNU tools in Windows is probably easier than doing it in Linux. In Windows, Cygwin has a nice GUI installer. All I do is check of the packages I want, and *poof* they're installed. If I want updates, I can do that too. Most people have no problem running a simple setup utility to install a program. But once you get into using multiple files and dependency checking, you've lost people.

--
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Re:Upgrading... by Spy+Hunter · 2001-09-19 13:48 · Score: 2

Everyone thinks that the developers have it out for the poor users. That's not the case! There is simply a lack of good available tools to make universal installers. For Windows, that's not a problem, mostly because Windows is more standardized. In Linux, every attempt to make some sort of a universal packaging system has failed (so far). All the major distros are incompatible with each other. Therefore, each supported system has to be dealt with seperately, wasting developer time. No developer can support installation on all available systems (in their free time, remember - they probably don't even have access to most of the systems themselves) and still have time to do what's fun for them (code). Sometimes developers get annoyed at all the people demanding binaries from them and get a little mad, which might give you the impression that they're hell-bent on making things difficult for you. But that's a very narrow-minded view.
If someone came out with an easy way to make universal installers for linux programs, every developer out there would snap it up in a heartbeat.

--
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
Re:Upgrading... by be-fan · 2001-09-20 09:32 · Score: 2

If someone came out with an easy way to make universal installers for linux programs, every developer out there would snap it up in a heartbeat.
>>>>>>>>>>>
I think its a reluctance of developers to standardize on anything. Some people are vehmently against the LSB, even though it tries to solve exactly the problems you mention.

--
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...

KDE 2.2.1 Up by Trollificus · 2001-09-18 14:29 · Score: 0, Flamebait

"KDE 2.2.1 Up"

Not anymore it isn't. Thanks a lot, Slashdot.

--

"People should be allowed to keep midgets as pets."
- Gov. Jesse Ventura

Personal Opinion by bradleyjay · 2001-09-18 14:31 · Score: 0

Personally, I can't stand KDE.

If I wanted windows, I'd use Windows.

WindowMaker is the best: small, and super fast nobloat.

--
Karma...what's that? I just speak my mind.

Re:Personal Opinion by am+2k · 2001-09-18 15:12 · Score: 0, Troll

If I wanted windows, I'd use Windows.
WindowMaker is the best
Well, if you want NeXTSTEP, you should use NeXTSTEP.
Maybe somebody actually chooses his/her OS for another reason than it's GUI.
Re:Personal Opinion by bradleyjay · 2001-09-18 15:23 · Score: 0

Good point.

Don't get me wrong. I love a lot of KDE apps, but i just don't like the whole desktop metaphor that KDE presents (you can add StarOffice to the list too). For me, it's too much like Windows, which is what I was trying to get away from.

I did choose my OS for reasons other than the GUI, but since the GUI is what you have to interact with, both visually and input/output-wise, is weighs very heavily in my choice, and I suspect the choice of most others also.

I know where you're coming from, I was just saying that personally, KDe doesn't do it for me.

--
Karma...what's that? I just speak my mind.
Re:Personal Opinion by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 15:44 · Score: 0

yeh, kde is cool.
But the reason i don't like it because it's a resource hog, so probably blackbox would be best for me.
Re:Personal Opinion by bradleyjay · 2001-09-18 15:49 · Score: 0

Agreed. I like blackbox also. And yes, KDE is a hog, but then again, so is just about any window manager that tries to do everything. That's why I like WindowMaker, and BlackBox for the same reason: They have just the right mix of functionality and snazzy looks to keep me happy.

But it's definitely a personal thing. If you like KDE, go for it.

--
Karma...what's that? I just speak my mind.
Re:Personal Opinion by El+Prebso · 2001-09-18 17:59 · Score: 1

Okay, I use Mozilla as my primary browser to, but I don't use KDE, and that seems pretty normal to.

--
I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame it on you.
Re:Personal Opinion by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 21:37 · Score: 1, Interesting

If I wanted windows, I'd use Windows.
Well, first of all I don't think that my KDE installation really looks like Windows. But even if it would, I think there is more to an OS than its looks. Even if I would think that the Windows look is perfect for my taste, there are still things like stability, free availability, certain programms(e.g. shells) which are good reasons to prefer Linux. So even a Linux installation which tries to mimic exactly the Windows look is IMHO preferable to Windows.

A-P-T? by Tyger · 2001-09-18 14:34 · Score: 1

Is there a way to get KDE 2.2.anything for Debian without going to unstable release? That is the most annoying thing I find about *all* the distributions. You either use their packages and are stuck with what they got, or you use source and don't ever use any packages that have dependancies on the stuff you compiled in source. As a result I usually end up just getting source. But I am *trying* to give Debian and the much touted apt a chance. However, I don't feel like going to unstable, and bugs in KDE2 and other packages frozen in stable/testing have been annoying me.

Re:A-P-T? by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 14:40 · Score: 0

Debian testing is two weeks behind unstable, and tends to be quite good.
Re:A-P-T? by sirinek · 2001-09-18 14:41 · Score: 1

debian unstable is hardly unstable. I don't see any reason *not* to run debian unstable unless your system is a critical production server or something. I have no problems and I've been using sid for a while.

siri
Re:A-P-T? by cwebster · 2001-09-18 14:46 · Score: 1

yes, look on the debian site for non-official package mirrors, or do it yourself. The latter isnt too hard, just read the basic debian-maintainer guide to setup a debian package build tree for each tarball, edit debian/rules to have the basic commands to configure and make the package, and edit one or 2 other files. Then dpkg-buildpackage, and you've taken a source tarball and built a deb package out of it. It is very handy for getting random tarballs, yet maintain them withing the packaging system.

-- runs unstable
Re:A-P-T? by Tyger · 2001-09-18 14:49 · Score: 1

If debian testing is 2 weeks behind unstable than how come I have yet to even get KDE 2.2? The latest I have is 2.1.1 and my package database is not stale (I updated it once already this week)
Re:A-P-T? by Bronster · 2001-09-18 14:50 · Score: 2

Debian testing is two weeks behind unstable, and tends to be quite good.

...though I was stupid enough to try to use it on a production server back when apache/php4 caused great mess due to library incompatabilities.

The main problem I have with Debian is that packages sometimes change which one is in charge of a file without conflicting, and it apt doesn't offer any nice way to deal with two packages wanting to own the same file unless one of them offers a redirect or they call it a conf-file.

Back on topic, I've just started using KDE again on my new laptop, having not been too impressed a couple of years ago when I last looked. KDE is getting _very_ nice (though you'll probably want to cut back on the eye-candy and gratuitously large real-estate grab the bar at the bottom makes on the default setup).

Apart from Konquerer being a bloatedly slow pig on Celeron 366 with 96Mb of memory, it rocks. Yay KDE.
Re:A-P-T? by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 15:09 · Score: 0

Easy as A-P-T! (not)
Re:A-P-T? by Herstel · 2001-09-18 15:41 · Score: 1

Yesterday I compiled 2.2.1 against qt-2.3.1, all from src archives following all instructions. Konqueror seems to be faster, Knode appears to be slower. Dunno why Knode takes so much time to connect to a news server. Lat year I compiled 2.1.1 from src and all was OK.
Re:A-P-T? by Herstel · 2001-09-18 15:45 · Score: 1

Oh, I forgot to say I never use pre-compiled KDE .deb packages. Once I installed pre-compiled KDE 2.0 and it didn't integrate very well. Since than I am compiling KDE and have no any problems with it on Debian. This is Potato.
Re:A-P-T? by reverius · 2001-09-18 16:19 · Score: 2

Yes, there is! (Ignore all the people who say there isn't... it's extremely easy to do.)

Check out KDE.DEBIAN.NET. They have apt lines for Potato (stable) for the latest KDE release.
Re:A-P-T? by reverius · 2001-09-18 16:27 · Score: 3, Informative

I've lost my entire debian system twice due to using the unstable version.

By upgrading to the latest unstable software on a daily basis, my system was completely trashed.

First it was a glibc problem (I don't remember what), then it was an overwritten file that caused me to not be able to log in. I had to re-install the whole system, and I've used Debian Stable ever since.

There are some ways you can make Debian Stable a lot more modern than you might think...

kde.debian.net gives you the latest KDE...

Ximian offers the latest gnome for Debian potato (stable)...

and gnulpr offers a printing system (easily set up) that can be installed through apt with debian stable.
Re:A-P-T? by z4ce · 2001-09-18 16:32 · Score: 3, Informative

If you don't know how to fix library problems, do nott use unstable. They will happen. However, you can fix them. That's what emergency disks are for. Boot off your emergency disk, download + install the old library or a new fixed one. Most of the time you don't even have to get that drastic though.. you can either go into single user mode or boot the kernel with init=/bin/sh before you go losing your system you might want to talk with the people in #debian irc.openprojects.net I can almost guarantee your system wasn't actually lost.. I've been dist-upgrading to unstable everyday to every other day now for the last say two years or so.

Ian
Re:A-P-T? by reverius · 2001-09-18 16:59 · Score: 2

Yeah... the glibc problem I didn't have to re-install for, like I said, that one was just an annoyance (having stuff broken and all)...

but the problem I had to re-install to fix was when some kind of password file (I don't remember what) was overwritten by an unstable base package accidentally, and my system did not know who I was and had no way of logging in at all (no users or passwords). :)

Theoretically I could've fixed this by replacing the files with a bootdisk... but I didn't.
Re:A-P-T? by akc · 2001-09-18 18:13 · Score: 1

take a look at

man apt_preferences

This file allows you have both stable and unstable lines in your sources.list but to only use unstable packages for those that you include in this file. With KDE its a bit messy, because you have to include all packages indiviually, but it can be done (because I have).
Re:A-P-T? by Jethro · 2001-09-18 18:41 · Score: 2

A while ago debian/iunstable did nuke the pam libraries, so you couldn't login, yes.

This did not require a reinstall. I heard you could've started in single-user mode, but I just went with "init=/bin/bash" at the LILO: prompt - and there you go. Logged in as root on your machine. Then you remount root sa read-write (mount -oremount,rw /), mount the other dirs that might get updated (/var, /usr etc) and run apt-get update&&apt-get dist-upgrade.

Ok, so I had an unusable machine for a day. Luckily I noticed this on the non-vital machine first. (:

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
Re:A-P-T? by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 20:36 · Score: 0

I have this line for KDE at the end of sources.list:
deb http://kde.debian.net potato main crypto optional
and before that there are 3 lines of debian testing.
When I try apt-get install kmail it starts downloading kdelibs 2.1.1 from debian.org site!?
Tell me how to setup apt-get to download new packages?
Re:A-P-T? by reverius · 2001-09-18 20:43 · Score: 1

Umm... I was wrong about kde.debian.net having KDE 2.2... they don't.

They seem to only have 2.1... so Debian Testing actually has a newer version of KDE then kde.debian.net. :(

Oh well, at least I can have KDE2.1 on Potato this way.
Re:A-P-T? by debrain · 2001-09-19 00:15 · Score: 2

you didn't get the libpam-so bug that disabled logins. ;-)
Re:A-P-T? by Buck2 · 2001-09-19 02:13 · Score: 1

That was a nasty pam incident. I ended up fixing
that by dl'ing the old .deb and installing it
from floppy. I was ticked that I picked the
_one_ day that had such a catastrophic glitch.

Remember that you do not have to update all
of your packages every day. I recognize that
it's great fun, but if things are working,
don't fuss around with it. Go outside.

Also, simply running apt-get update and apt-get
install is 99.5% of the time
harmless (for sid, 99.99% of the time harmless
for stable).

I'm running 20 lab machines on Debian unstable
and we get all the nice software with minimal
headaches.

--

As my father lik@(munch munch)... ....

List of mirrors by chrandgull · 2001-09-18 14:38 · Score: 5, Informative

In case kde.org is slashdotted, here is a list of mirrors.

.at (Austria)

ftp://gd.tuwien.ac.at/hci/kde (++)
.ch (Switzerland)

ftp://sunsite.cnlab-switch.ch/mirror/kde (++)
.cz (Czech Republic)

ftp://sunsite.mff.cuni.cz/MIRRORS/ftp.kde.org/pu b/ kde/ (++)
"ftp://ftp.fi.muni.cz/pub/kde (++)
.de (Germany)

ftp://ftp.de.kde.org/pub/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.archive.de.uu.net/pub/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.fh-dortmund.de/pub/unix/kde.mirror (++) (stable tree only)
ftp://ftp.fh-heilbronn.de/pub/mirrors/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/unix/X11/gui/kde (++)
ftp://bolugftp.uni-bonn.de/pub/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/x11/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de/pub/unix/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.tu-chemnitz.de/pub/X11/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.uni-bayreuth.de/pub/X11/gui/kde (++)
ftp://ftp-stud.fht-esslingen.de/pub/Mirrors/ftp. kd e.org/pub/kde (++)
ftp://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/Linu x/ kde (++)
ftp://mimas.germany.net/pub/master.kde.org (+) (part only)
.pl (Poland)

ftp://ftp.task.gda.pl/pub/linux/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.tuniv.szczecin.pl/pub/kde (++)
ftp://kde.fnet.com.pl/pub/kde (++) (debian only)
ftp://ftp.task.gda.pl/pub/unix/kde (++) (Gdansk)
ftp://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/pub/unix/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.man.olsztyn.pl/pub/linux/kde (++) (Olsztyn)
Northern Europe
.dk (Danmark)

ftp://sunsite.auc.dk/pub/X/kde (+)
ftp://ftp.dkuug.dk/pub/kde (+) (stable and part of unstable)
.fi (Finland)

ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/mirrors/ftp.kde.org/pub/k de (-)
.se (Sweden)

ftp://ftp.dataplus.se/pub/linux/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.se.kde.org/pub/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/X11/kde (++)
Southern Europe
.gr (Greece)

ftp://ftp.duth.gr/pub/kde (++)
.hr (Croatia)

ftp://ftp.linux.hr/pub/kde (-- stable tree only
.it (Italy)

ftp://ftp.futuretg.com/mirrors/ftp.kde.org/pub/k de / (++) (stable tree only)
ftp://ftp.unina.it/pub/kde (--)
.tr (Turkey)

ftp://ftp.tr.kde.org/pub/kde (++) (stable tree only)
.yu (Yugoslavia)

ftp://ftp.kde.org.yu/mirrors/ftp.kde.org (++)
Western Europe
.be (Belgium)

ftp://ftp.belnet.be/pub/mirror/ftp.kde.org/pub/k de / (++)
ftp://ftp.easynet.be/kde (++)
.es (Spain)

ftp://ftp.dit.upm.es/linux/mirrors/ftp.kde.org/p ub /kde (+) (stable tree only)
ftp://ftp.tsc.uvigo.es/pub/linux/kde (++)
.fr (France)

ftp://ftp.uvsq.fr/pub/X11/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.lip6.fr/pub/X11/kde (++)
.ie (Ireland)

ftp://ftp.esat.net/mirrors/ftp.kde.org/pub/kde (++)
.nl (Netherlands)

ftp://ftp.nl.uu.net:/pub/kde (++)
.pt (Portugal)

ftp://ftp.dei.uc.pt/pub/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.eq.uc.pt/pub/software/unix/KDE (+)
ftp://ftp.esoterica.pt/pub/mirrors/kde (-)
.uk (United Kingdom)

ftp://ftp.net.lut.ac.uk/kde (++)
ftp://sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk/Mirrors/ftp.kde.org/p ub /kde (++)
ftp://ftp.uk.kde.org/pub/kde (+)
ftp://ftp.mirror.ac.uk/sites/ftp.kde.org/pub/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.newnet.co.uk/pub/unix/kde (++)
Eastern Europe
.bg (Bulgaria)

ftp://ftp.digsys.bg/pub/kde (++)
.ro (Romania)

ftp://ftp.lbi.ro/pub/Linux/KDE (++)
ftp://ftp.tuiasi.ro/pub/mirrors/ftp.kde.org/pub/ kd e (++)
ftp://mirror.itcnet.ro/pub/kde (++) (stable tree only)
.ru (Russia)

ftp://ftp.chg.ru/pub/X11/kde (++)
Asia/Australia
.au (Australia)

ftp://ftp.au.kde.org/pub/kde (++)
.cn (China)

ftp://ftp.turbolinux.com.cn/pub/mirrors/kde (+)
.hk (Hong Kong)

ftp://ftp.dll.com.hk/pub/mirrors/KDE (++)
.il (Israel)

ftp://ftp.iglu.org.il/pub/KDE/ (++) (without snapshots)
.jp (Japan)

ftp://casper.yz.yamagata-u.ac.jp/mirror/kde (-)
ftp://ftp.lab.kdd.co.jp/X11/kde (++)
ftp://mirror.nucba.ac.jp/mirror/KDE (++)
ftp://sunsite.sut.ac.jp/pub/archives/linux/X/kde (++) (stable tree only)
.kr (Republic of Korea)

ftp://linux.sarang.net/mirror/desktop/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.kreonet.re.kr/pub/tools/X11/kde (+) stable tree only
.sg (Singapore)

ftp://kde.lugs.org.sg/pub/kde.org (++)
.th (Thailand)

ftp://ftp.nectec.or.th/pub/mirrors/kde (+)
.tw (Taiwan)

ftp://ftp2.sinica.edu.tw/pub2/wmgrs/kde (++)
ftp://linux.cis.nctu.edu.tw/packages/X/wm/kde (+) stable tree only
Africa
.na (Namibia)

ftp://ftp.na.kde.org/pub/kde (++)
.za (South Africa)

ftp://ftp.sun.ac.za/sites/ftp.kde.org/pub/kde (++)
America and Generic
.br (Brazil)

ftp://ftp.matrix.com.br/pub/kde (++)
.cr (Costa Rica)

ftp://ftp.ucr.ac.cr/pub/Unix/linux/kde (++)
.com

ftp://ftp.linuxberg.com/pub/KDE (++) (stable tree and apps only)
.edu

ftp://csociety-ftp.ecn.purdue.edu/pub/kde (++) (West Lafayette, IN, USA)
ftp://canine.resnet.gatech.edu/pub/kde (+) (stable tree only)
ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/X11/kde (+) (stable tree only)
ftp://ftp.rutgers.edu/pub/kde (++) (US east coast)
ftp://mirror.chpc.utah.edu/pub/kde (++)
.net

ftp://download.sourceforge.net/pub/mirrors/kde (++)
ftp://ftp.archive.de.uu.net/pub/kde (+) (Germany)
ftp://ftp.esat.net/mirrors/ftp.kde.org/pub/kde (++) (Ireland)
ftp://mimas.germany.net/pub/master.kde.org (-) unstable only (Germany)
.org

ftp://ftp.us.kde.org/pub/kde (++) (Caldera Inc.)
ftp://ftp.vlug.org/software/kde (++) (Victoria, BC, Can)

Download (worldwide) by http
http://ftp-stud.fht-esslingen.de/pub/Mirrors/ftp .k de.org/pub/kde (++)
http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/hci/kde (++)
http://www.cee.odu.edu/kde/ (++)
http://download.sourceforge.net/mirrors/kde (++)
http://ftp.eq.uc.pt/software/unix/KDE (+)
http://ftp.matrix.com.br/pub/kde (++)
http://ftp.fi.muni.cz/pub/kde (++)
http://www.mirror.ac.uk/sites/ftp.kde.org/pub/kd e (++)
http://www.uwm.edu.pl/pub/linux/distributions/sl ac kware (++) (Olsztyn)

Re:List of mirrors by El+Prebso · 2001-09-18 18:01 · Score: 1

Got this one wrong ftp://sunsite.auc.dk/pub/X/kde it should be ftp://sunsite.dk/pub/X/kde

--
I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame it on you.

Re:stop lyin taco, the packages ain't ready yet by tannhaus · 2001-09-18 14:38 · Score: 0

Try it the way many of us do....ftp to ftp.kde.org. Then you can compile it from the source. If you use mandrake or redhat you can use the script checkinstall and make RPMs out of it. If not, I'm sure you can use alien.

I'm running kde 2.2.1 as we speak

KDE and Active X by RogrWilco · 2001-09-18 14:41 · Score: 1

Once KDE and Konqueror offer complete active X controls in a sane environment, that will be enough for me to switch from Gnome. I am constantly stuck having to either walk to a new machine or reboot just to administer my NT boxes, and it really is a pain in the ass.
As for the look and feel of KDE, I really don't care for it. I prefer Gnome, I prefer the apps which are specific to gnome, and will continue to use gnome, especially if Helix ever gets it to install on Slackware any time soon.
However, if I was to replace all the windows boxes in the company, I would most certainly choose KDE, as I feel it is a more business centric desktop, and the windows users wouldn't feel completely alienated.

Re:KDE and Active X by reverius · 2001-09-18 16:56 · Score: 2

Gnome or KDE on Slackware would be kinda hard without a good package management system... well, okay, not that hard... but it wouldn't be as easy to resolve dependancies with a system that doesn't have that capability.

That said, I still use Slackware occasionally because I like compiling stuff from source and actually having control over what's on my system (not to mention the fact that I love the BSD startup system instead of the horrid SysV style.) :)
Re:KDE and Active X by fault0 · 2001-09-18 17:21 · Score: 1

In my experience, kde's "feel" is a lot better. It is a lot more tightly intregrated. As for the look, I don't think any gtk theme can match mosfet's liquid theme. For the look it provides, you'd expect the traditional eye candy bloat, but it's actually really really fast. I also tend to like kde apps more because they tend to intregrate better with each other and the desktop.
Re:KDE and Active X by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 05:41 · Score: 0

Yuck! I can't even bear to look at any more Aqua ripoff themes. Granted, Liquid is better than most of the lot, but that's not saying much. Far too many people have tried to copy the Aqua look and all have done it badly. Can't people use their artistic talent to come up with original looking themes?

Also, I agree with the previous poster: while KDE works better and is more tightly integrated, GNOME is definately better looking. And it's not because of themes, GNOME has better icons and the proportions of Qt's widgets seem wrong.
Re:KDE and Active X by hyperstation · 2001-09-19 05:57 · Score: 1

Gnome or KDE on Slackware would be kinda hard without a good package management system... well, okay, not that hard... but it wouldn't be as easy to resolve dependancies with a system that doesn't have that capability.

./configure --prefix=/opt/kde/ && make
... six pack ...
su
make install

nope, not that hard - tho slack (tgz) packages would be nice.
Re:KDE and Active X by Cirrocco · 2001-09-19 11:39 · Score: 1

I don't have a problem with Gnome, per se, but here's how it comes across to me:

You know how kids toys that mimic adult objects (e.g. "My First CD Player" or some such) often have oversized buttons and rounded corners? That's how Gnome feels to me. All the functionality but somehow made safe.

KDE, on the other hand, has a lot of sharp edges and hard corners to snag your fingers, kind of like an old-school Tonka Truck.

There's no denying that KDE and Gnome are more or less equals.

But when I swing my GUI at some other kid's head it's gonna do some damage! Fa fa fa!

--
Useless opinions, worthless observations, and more!
Re:KDE and Active X by reverius · 2001-09-19 12:24 · Score: 1

I meant precompiled packages, not compiling from source... of course you can compile from source. :)

Sick of Big Downloads? by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 14:41 · Score: 0, Funny

Wow,

Each week /. brings me one step closer to burning my modem in effigy.

I'm 2 Megs into the download and hope that I make it. Any how, If It dies, I know that someplace like http://www.lsl.com will have it very soon.

Quick Releases! by Steev · 2001-09-18 14:42 · Score: 1

Man, they release versions quickly. It seems like I just finished compiling KDE 2.2! I really look forward to this one though, because 2.2 is great, and it can only get better.

Maybe my netscape plugins won't segfault in konqueror this time :)

Re:Quick Releases! by Tyger · 2001-09-18 14:57 · Score: 1

So it's not just me with that problem?

The weird thing is I didn't start seeing it until I upgraded from kernel 2.2 to 2.4... Things that make you go hmmmmm....
Re:Quick Releases! by Legion · 2001-09-18 15:38 · Score: 1

Dude. You _did_ just finish compiling 2.2 :-)

apt isn't a pancea by dvdeug · 2001-09-18 14:43 · Score: 3, Informative

Of course, apt won't install KDE 2.2.1 right now, since unstable has some library version problem (at least on my system.) Probably something got hung in incoming and it will just clear itself up in a few days.

Re:apt isn't a pancea by FredGray · 2001-09-18 16:01 · Score: 1

Yep.
You can, however, manually download and install kdelibs3_2.2.1-1.i386.deb and libarts_2.2.1-1.i386.deb from http://incoming.debian.org. After that, apt-get will be your friend again. :-)
Re:apt isn't a pancea by redcliffe · 2001-09-18 16:48 · Score: 0

What's the best process to use to download it all? Apt-get task-kde?

David
Re:apt isn't a pancea by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 17:04 · Score: 0

"panacea"
Re:apt isn't a pancea by quarterbooty · 2001-09-18 17:10 · Score: 1

thanks for the tip. those were the nasty little packages:) installed those manually, and now apt has only 51 more to go as i write. i guess this is to be expected being from "unstable" :) thanks a lot ivan! keep up the great work; it is much appreciated.

i feel sorry for redhat users. i read a lot of posts about the dependency hell they went through on the upgrade to kde 2.2.
Re:apt isn't a pancea by desaster · 2001-09-18 18:33 · Score: 1

sid: apt-get install kde
Re:apt isn't a pancea by sirinek · 2001-09-19 07:06 · Score: 1

I could if they were there. Why arent they in sid with everything else?

(fuck this lameness filter)

2.2.1 Changelog? by antdude · 2001-09-18 14:43 · Score: 1, Redundant

Anyone have it? No one in irc.kde.org seems to know at the moment. :)

--
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).

Re:2.2.1 Changelog? by KeLp · 2001-09-18 14:52 · Score: 2, Informative

Fortunatly they used the same naming scheme for their html files as they had for previous change logs :)

http://www.kde.org/announcements/changelog2_2to2 _2 _1.html

JESUS CHRIST by metalhed77 · 2001-09-18 14:45 · Score: 0, Flamebait

a 0.0.1 point increase? well whoopty fucking do, I use KDE and I don't really care, call me next time they do a 0.1 update cuz no one really cares, this isn't the freakin kernel here.

--
Photos.

Re:JESUS CHRIST by dead_penguin · 2001-09-18 14:54 · Score: 2

a 0.0.1 point increase? well whoopty fucking do, I use KDE and I don't really care, call me next time they do a 0.1 update cuz no one really cares, this isn't the freakin kernel here

Heh. While unintentional, I think that was actually a pretty big compliment for the kde developers. Why do you ask? Well, this 0.0.1 increment is actually a bug fix release. Since you (and I'm sure the sentiment is shared by many others) don't see the need to download this, that goes to show that the previous 2.2 release was actually quite stable and significantly bug free!

Personally, I'd tend to agree with you-- almost. I've found 2.2 to be *very* stable, and use it as my desktop. That said, there still were a few tiny little bugs and quirks that occasionally bothered me, so I'll probably grab 2.2.1 when I've got time.

--

It's only software!
Re:JESUS CHRIST by infiniti99 · 2001-09-18 15:06 · Score: 2

You're right, it's not the kernel. It's actually more important than the kernel.

Even though 0.1+ releases of KDE are more significant, the 0.0.1+ releases should not be ignored. They are the "clean up". There was 2.0, then 2.0.1, then 2.1, then 2.1.1, then 2.2, and now 2.2.1. There is always a follow-up 0.0.1 release, and if you use KDE you really should upgrade. The KDE team is good about fixing bugs.
Re:JESUS CHRIST by Algan · 2001-09-19 01:56 · Score: 1

Well, if this release includes the object prelinking stuff, then it'll give you a significant speed boost. Worth upgrading if you ask me.

--
If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?

didn't even make KDE.org's news by metalhed77 · 2001-09-18 14:47 · Score: 1

sorry to double post, but it didn't even make the news on www.kde.org, taco has some insane obsession with KDE it seems...

--
Photos.

you karma whores are fast by metalhed77 · 2001-09-18 14:49 · Score: 0, Flamebait

i mean, doing that before the page even starts to show signs of slowing down

--
Photos.

Re:you karma whores are fast by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 09:43 · Score: 0

Seeing how quickly the /. effect can kick in, I think it was a good idea.

Mirrors by nomis80 · 2001-09-18 14:52 · Score: 1, Informative

The right URL for FTP mirrors would be http://www.kde.org/mirrors.html.

Last stable release until February by infiniti99 · 2001-09-18 14:53 · Score: 5, Informative

According to this release plan, KDE 2.2.1 will be the last stable KDE release for quite some time. Planned for release in February is KDE3.0, which will essentially be the same 2.x architecture but based on Qt 3.0. They are going to call it KDE3.0 mainly because it will break binary compatibility with 2.x. It will not be a rewrite like KDE2 was.

Of course, KDE is notorious for frequent releases, so I would imagine there will be betas / release candidates every 6 weeks or so until the final 3.0.

Happy downloading/compiling/etc!

Re:Last stable release until February by fault0 · 2001-09-18 17:23 · Score: 1

6 months isn't a long time till kde 3 ;p
Re:Last stable release until February by manly · 2001-09-18 18:05 · Score: 1

Of course, KDE is notorious for frequent releases, so I would imagine there will be betas / release candidates every 6 weeks or so until the final 3.0.
It's quite seldom that notorious is used as such an unabashed compliment. ;-)
Re:Last stable release until February by infiniti99 · 2001-09-18 22:48 · Score: 2

Hmm, don't "notorious" and "notoriety" (maybe I spelled that wrong) come from the same root? I actually did hesitate before posting, but then I remembered "notoriety" is a good thing.

Ah well =)
Re:Last stable release until February by Jack+Hughes · 2001-09-19 00:47 · Score: 1

How about notable? That has positive connotations.
Re:Last stable release until February by kryptkpr · 2001-09-19 01:11 · Score: 1

And according to the announcement:

"Code development is currently focused on the branch that will lead to KDE 3.0, scheduled for its first beta release this December and for final release in late February 2001."

--
DJ kRYPT's Free MP3s!
Re:Last stable release until February by swright · 2001-09-19 07:18 · Score: 1

I can't remember for sure, but I seem to remember some talk about a possible 2.2.2 - it was somewhere on the dot but can't remember where :(

Either way, I'm happy wiht 2.2.1 :) Its fixed all my favourite (?) bugs and I finally have Mosfet's LiquidEngine working. woohoo!

Posting from 2.2.1 by justletmeinnow · 2001-09-18 14:53 · Score: 1

I didn't even realize it was just released, I went to the mirrors for 2.2 and saw 2.2.1
RPMs upgraded smooth, without even a second thought with Caldera 3.1

--
Just because I AM paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get me.

Re:Posting from 2.2.1 by vstanescu · 2001-09-18 19:32 · Score: 1

Do you have anything against Caldera? it is better than redhat because uses serious applications instead of new, buggy software, but also has enough new library versions to make me hapy. Debian is just a geek-toy (ugly to install from so many floppies, poor configuration style - and i am not talking about visual tools, but about the style of the configuration files). I am using caldera for one month (i was using redhat before but 7.x series were to ugly to upgrade to and 6.x were always requiring many upgrades).
Re:Posting from 2.2.1 by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 01:07 · Score: 0

Debian is just a geek-toy (ugly to install from so many floppies, poor configuration style - and i am not talking about visual tools, but about the style of the configuration files).

You haven't really spent much time in Debian have you? First of all, nobody installs from floppies anymore. When I do an install on my home network (with a cable connection) all I need are two floppies, one with a kernel image, and one with a root system that loads up networking so the base system can be installed from the internet. And if installing straight from the internet isn't an option, installing from CD-ROM works just fine thank you. Debian's current installation system is ugly, but not that ugly. Besides, they're going to retire it soon anyway.

Secondly, don't diss debian's configuration just because it doesn't look like Red Hat's. Debian has a lot more uniform configuration system than Red Hat. That means that sometimes thing aren't where you used to find them. Too bad. I used Red Hat for a year before I went to Debian, and you couldn't even bribe me to go back to Red Hat.
I noticed you complained about a lack of visual configuration tools. That's right. But only because there are no visual configration tools that actually give you the full potential of the configuration files behind it. I've checked out piles of visual tools, and never ever did I come across a single one that didn't either mess up my custom configuration or only offered a limited choice of configuration options. The Debian philosophy is that you do the configuration in the /etc files themselves, but that you're assisted by man pages. Every file in the /etc directory has it's very own man page explaining what the options are and what they do. Very handy. And if that isn't enough, every package installs it's very own documentation in /usr/share/doc/packagename.

Guess it's pretty obvious I like Debian a lot. But hey man, if you go around dissing my favourite linux distro, you have some coming! ;)

Changes between 2.2 and 2.2.1 by CtrlPhreak · 2001-09-18 14:56 · Score: 5, Informative

Link:Changes Changes between KDE 2.2 and KDE 2.2.1

This page tries to present as much as possible of the problem corrections that occurred in KDE between the 2.2 and 2.2.1 releases. The primary goals of the 2.2.1 release being more complete documentation and translations, the amount of code change is quite minimal - only the most critical bugs have been fixed, the rest of the development is currently being done in the branch that will lead to the KDE 3.0 release.

General

Many improvements to translations and documentation

kdelibs

arts: compile fixes, single threaded option.
KRFCDate: fix for eastern timezones.
KTempFile: fix for problem when fileExtension contained "X".
Improved checking for IPv6 support.
KPasswordEdit: slightly better in understanding non-ASCII characters.
KXMLGUI: fix for problem with reading xml file completely.
KFile: file preview fixes.
KHTML: Various html & CSS fixes.
Improved large file support.
HTTP: Better support for https through proxy.
HTTP: Improved handling of HTTP-cookies.
HTTP: Fixed security problem with abuse of HTTP POST.
Optimisations to improve KDE startup time.
KDED: All tasks can now be disabled through config file.
KSpell: support for Lithuanian and Belarusian.
KSSL: OpenBSD fixes.

kdeaddons

User Agent plugin: various fixes.
Kate Plugins: made translatable.

kdeadmin

KPackage: various fixes.
Kwuftpd: various fixes.

kdeartwork No changes kdebase

Kate: corrected bug wrt last line.
Desktop Wallpaper: small fixes.
KControl: fixes for NetBSD & OpenBSD info.
KDesktop: fix problem with icon positions on desktop.
KDesktop: fixed sever bug where renaming a file on the desktop would destroy it.
Kicker: mini-pager can be used to switch desktop during drag&drop.
AudioCD: Vorbis fixes.
IMAP: Handle folders that contain # or ? in their names correctely.
SMB: Better error reporting.
Thumbnail io-slave: fixes.
klipper: changes in configuration file format.
Konqueror: compile fixes.
Konqueror:minor fixes.
Konsole: many fixes.
Konsole: added --noxft option to disable AA.
Konsole: added "tripple click" support.
KPersonalizer: Fixed bug that inadvertently turned "shade hover" on. (This makes the window roll up till only the title bar is left when the mouse is over the title bar for some time)
ScreenSavers: show screen saver in front of the desktop instead of behind it.
KSMServer: Provide error diagnostics for common KDE instalation problems.
KSysGuard: various fixes.
KWin B2 decration: fixes.
KWin: Fix for freeze with CDE-style alt-tab.
Netscape Plugin Scan: Don't crash on incompatible libs.

kdebindings

Many updates.

kdegames

KAtomic: Fixed various incorrect chemical names.

kdegraphics

kdvi: various fixes.
kgv: small fixes.
kview: various fixes.

kdemultimedia

Some compile fixes.
noaun: small fix.

kdenetwork

KMail: various fixes.
KNode: Fix 1e9 problem.
KPgp: various fixes.

KDEPIM

korganizer: small fix.
kpilot: fix syncing problems.

KDESDK

kbabel: small fix.

KDEToys

KScore: small fix.

KDEUtils

Kab: compile fix.
Kpm: fix for Linux 2.4.

KDdevelop

kdevelop: avoid khtml crash on restoring files also with KDE-2.2.0
kdevelop: gcc 3.0 compile fix.
kdevelop: Fix find dialog.
kdevelop: Various fixes.

KDoc No changes.

--
WikiAfterDark.com It's a sex wiki, go now!

Re:Changes between 2.2 and 2.2.1 by MROD · 2001-09-18 23:56 · Score: 1

The main problem I have with the KDE development structure is that they stop fixing bugs, even pretty major ones, on the stable release just to concentrate on the new whizz-bang version coming up.

If they continued supplying bug fixes for the old stable release for a significant period of time after the initial realease and even overlapped these fixes with the full release of the next version (so that those people who need time to plan for upgrading the system on a large, multi-machine, multi-user system such as the one I run have a chance to keep bug-free) I would feel a whole lot happier.

PS. Oh, and if only kmail had the ability of having mailing list aliases it would also help. At the moment I'm having to kludge things for our users by using nmh's 'post' program as a mail posting agent so that aliases can be used properly. (Kaddressbook/Kab etc. don't have any such facility and there are a number of "Wish-list" bugs postingss for this which haven't even been replied to.)

--

Agrajag: "Oh no, not again!"
Re:Changes between 2.2 and 2.2.1 by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 01:53 · Score: 0

Damn does it make me feel good to see "OpenBSD fixes" in that list. I used to be a GNOME guy back when I used linux, but let's just say that GNOME has problems on OpenBSD. I asked the Ximian folks about this once, and their response was "um, BSD? I think someone compiled GNOME on BSD once."

Needless to say, I'm a KDE guy now. It's nice to know that my desktop environment isn't limited to the kernel du jour.
Re:Changes between 2.2 and 2.2.1 by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 08:35 · Score: 0

I'm sure that, if you would be willing to pay a couple of developers to bugfix old versions of KDE, you would find plenty of people happy to take the job on.

Re:stop lyin taco, the packages ain't ready yet by justletmeinnow · 2001-09-18 14:58 · Score: 0

Try a different mirror, I'm posting from 2.2.1 that I installed from Caldera RPMS. Some of the mirrors aren't updated yet.

--
Just because I AM paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get me.

Mandrake update does not by Vicegrip · 2001-09-18 15:26 · Score: 1

upgrade properly to kde2.2 for many people-- I spent time searching the web after my initial failures. I worked many many hours trying to cajole it, eventually resorting to trying urpmi and then just rpm.

During a series of unnistall/reinstalls of Mandrake 8.0:
I tried uninstalling kde first, then not installing it
I wrote down every dependancy urpmi said it couldn't solve... but eventually none of it would install without a force-- even after trying to manually install the dependencies.

I did succeed a few times in getting it all installed (after a force).. but seg faults seemed to occur too frequently-- something I judged to be most likely broken dependencies despite my efforts. I guess I'll be waiting for 8.1 ... or at least until I find a good faq on properly manually resolving dependencies.

I was really looking forward to the new kdevelop and enhancements to KDE. I'll get them eventually, but the instant gratification person in me is disapointed.

--
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.

Re:Mandrake update does not by jdeking1 · 2001-09-21 16:01 · Score: 1

Mandrake update still cannot be trusted to upgrade anything reliably, and it does not give you any kind of informative messages when it fails. I only use it to tell me what needs to be upgraded, then fetch the files using Mozilla, and I use plain vanilla rpm to do the real installation/upgrade. Good ol' command line! Nothing better for real feedback on your work. GUI's are all well and good, but the command line is far from dead.

I finally got KDE 2.2.1 installed without forcing it - but it was NOT easy. I could write a book.

Of course, now rpm hangs; it was part of the required upgrade ... hmmm, what to do, what to do ...

--
"A generation which ignores history has no past and no future." -- Robert Heinlein

Knode and Kmail were better in 2.1.1 by Herstel · 2001-09-18 15:28 · Score: 1

Knode 0.61 in the newest KDE 2.2.1 takes too much time to connect to my news server. Kmail pulls email out of some public POP3 servers just fine, but it takes too much time to connect to POP3 of my ISP. I was playing with settings for POP3, it didn't help. The same problems I had in KDE 2.2. In a previous KDE ver 2.1.1 everything was OK. Still not sure are these things some bugs. Positive side: Konqueror is noticable faster here on this system, even for Athlon 1.2GHz.

Re:Knode and Kmail were better in 2.1.1 by J0ey4 · 2001-09-18 17:54 · Score: 1

What the heck is the world coming to when we're saying..."even on my 1.2 GHz".

damn, I'm thinking of my old 386 WANG....i don't even want to know how slow that was.

l8r
Re:Knode and Kmail were better in 2.1.1 by Herstel · 2001-09-18 18:50 · Score: 1

Ok, I'll try to make it more clear; it's hard to see differences in speed when running fast processors; what I meant is that konqueror's speed is drastically improved since I can notice it on a processor 1.2GHz. Not so long ago I was running kde 2.1.1, downloaded src from internet and compiled on Pentium I 120MHz. Man, that's what I call slow.
Re:Knode and Kmail were better in 2.1.1 by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 19:36 · Score: 0

heh heh, 386 wang.
I think I'm turning japanese i think I'm turning japanese i really think so!
Re:Knode and Kmail were better in 2.1.1 by maroberts · 2001-09-19 04:03 · Score: 1

I've found KNode and KMail in KDE to be the best mail and newsreader for Linux (date bug notwithstanding), and infinitely preferable to Mozilla mail, which I only use because I want to browse my email from Windows machines too.

Konqueror I find effective, reliable, but a bit on the slow side. Hope 2.2.1 fixes this.

Anyway, whaddya complaining about a 1.2GHz Athlon for? My Linux fileserver/ dogsbody is a K6-2 366 [with 400MB RAM + 80GB drive, which does help a lot]!!

--
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Re:Knode and Kmail were better in 2.1.1 by Herstel · 2001-09-19 05:42 · Score: 1

Anyway, whaddya complaining about a 1.2GHz Athlon for? My Linux fileserver/ dogsbody is a K6-2 366 [with 400MB RAM + 80GB drive, which does help a lot]!!

I didn't complain about my Athlon, not at all.
Re:Knode and Kmail were better in 2.1.1 by linuxlover · 2001-09-19 06:05 · Score: 1

about mail clients. I use sylpheed b/c it stores the messages in individual files. I find this _very_ convenient b/c I can quickly grep/find stuff because my messages are simply regular files.
I liked the sophistication of Kmail. But they store the mail in mbox format. Which is really klunky (notice k) way of storing mails. It lumps everything into one file making it harder to deal from outside mail client.
Evolution (from helixcode.com) showed promises. But it segfaults on my machine (Mandrake 8) at startup.
My point is mail clients should abstract this 'storage' format and let me choose what ever I want. mbox/maildir/mhdir/mysql db ..anything you can think of. And currently this is not the case. They are all tied to a very specific format!
any one has any suggestions?
LinuxLover
Re:Knode and Kmail were better in 2.1.1 by maroberts · 2001-09-19 06:20 · Score: 1

I liked the sophistication of Kmail. But they store the mail in mbox format. Which is really klunky (notice k) way of storing mails. It lumps everything into one file making it harder to deal from outside mail client.
mbox format may be clunky, but not everything is in one file, it does support subdirectories. Anyway, Mozilla/Netscape [amongst others] use the same format, so it hopefully doesn't matter to much which mail client I use to get my mail.

Since so many clients use this format, it's not unreasonable to use it. Since mbox format is basically a (set of) text files, it is possible to use utils like awk, sed and grep to find what you need in the files.

Having said all the above, I do agree that abstraction of the storage format would be a 'Good Thing' - maybe you should propose it to the KDE developers!!

--
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon

Both KDE and GNOME is shit by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 15:36 · Score: 0, Funny

I use fvwm and emacs. What else do you need?

Re:Both KDE and GNOME is shit by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 11:25 · Score: 0

The 80s are over.
Re:Both KDE and GNOME is shit by spauldo · 2001-09-19 12:38 · Score: 1

A beer. Just to enhance the experience, you know.

--
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.

objprelink by dimator · 2001-09-18 15:38 · Score: 5, Informative

Don't forget the objprelink. I've used it to build Qt and KDE 2.2 and it has made a difference. (Although windows is still faster, UI-wise.)

--
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"

Re:objprelink by Adam+J.+Richter · 2001-09-18 17:37 · Score: 2

Although objprelink looks useful, I believe ELF shared libraries already do this for the calls that they make (via the Procedure Linkage Table). So, I think you could get a similar result by compiling your KDE applications as shared libraries. For example, konqueror's main() function would become konq_main(), and the konqueror program could be installed as a shared library, plus a trivial program for the actual konqueror executable:
main(int argc, char **argv, char **envp) { return konq_main(argc, argv, envp); }
The disadvantage of this approach would be that you would pay the other performance costs of compiling everything with Position Independent Code (-fPIC), but the advantage would be that you would probably break up the non-library part of the program into other libraries that might be useful to other programs.

"Small programs; big libraries" seems to a common characteristic among the most popular Graphical User Interface systems. Maybe there would be an advantage to taking that to the extreme.
Re:objprelink by sesquiped · 2001-09-18 17:48 · Score: 1

KDE does this to a very large extent already. All important KDE applications are already shared libraries (konsole.so, konqueror.so, etc.) and have embeddable versions (libkonsolepart.so, libkonq.so, etc).

In fact, this is the basis behind KDE's previous (and still useful) startup-time-reducing hack: kdeinit. The idea was to have one process (kdeinit) load all the necessary shared libraries for all kde apps, and then to run a new konsole, all it has to do is fork and call a function, instead of forking and invoking the dynamic loader to load all those libraries all over again.

(Note: I'm not a KDE hacker, so some of the details might be wrong. I'm just a user who's interested in these kind of issues.)
Re:objprelink by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 19:52 · Score: 0

Excactly the oposite, linux dynamic loader are in
effective.
Shared libraries means code have to be relocated
in the process that loads them (-fPIC enables this)
And thats the major reason why startup times are
so slow. objprelink tries to minimize the relocatios
needed, thus startup times are faster
gc 3.x and redhats 2.96 also does a better job
than 2.95.
Re:objprelink by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 23:26 · Score: 1, Informative

Bzzz!

objprelink was *specifically* developed to speed up kde start-up time, and it only works on ELF systems.

So, you might wish to get a clue, or even several...

Looking around, you can find several analysis of kde problems, and how to solve them.

* kdeinit: instead of loading all shared libraries for every application, just load kdeinit once (it holds most libraries, e.g., qt, kdecore, kdelibs...) and fork it with the right arguments each time you want a new application.
So, the `binaries' are just stubs that possibly start kdeinit and tell it (in its klaunch mode) to load the actual application (the .so file).
So, you never get to reload all libraries beyond the first start-up.

* --enable-final. Most kde source is structured so that you can either compile all files independently, or compile all files for a given application in one go. As a result, the compiler does most of the linking work, and there are many fewer relocations left in the resulting file (all relocations internal to the library have already been done).

* objprelink. So, we're just left with the time it takes to resolve many-to-many relocations between libraries. This is especially noticeable for virtual functions, but this is a detail. What objprelink does is process these relocations thru an indirection, so that you end up with one-to-many instead: in a given file, find all relocations that point to a given symbol, and make them go through a single indirect location. This slows the running code a little bit (not much), but this effectively removes all-but-one ld.so resolutions for that symbol. To achieve that, one must be able to manipulate object files effectively, a thing which is much simpler to do with ELF, and hard with the other object format changes.

* gcc improvements. Now we're hitting the future. Those problems in code loading time for shared code (pic stuff) have been properly identified, and applications the size of kde are becoming more and more important. This is a somewhat more important change, but rearranging code generation to minimize the number of relocations for many cases is a clear win. This is what's going to happen in a year or two, as work on this hasn't really actually started yet.
Re:objprelink by Adam+J.+Richter · 2001-09-19 03:51 · Score: 2

You're confused about multiople meanings of the term "relocated." Position independent code can be loaded at different addresses ("relocted"), without the need to change values of various bytes in the .text section to be (also sometimes referred to those bytes being "relocated"). Instead, shared libraries on x86-ELF to PC-relative jumps and calls to locations in the Procedure Linkage Table that are always at a precalculated distance from the caller, no matter where the library has been loaded. I believe that references to the same external routine use the same PLT entry, just like objprelink does (although you pay other performance costs for using -fPIC).

rpm hell by acm · 2001-09-18 15:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

First I have to say that I am such a HUGE fan of KDE and am ever appreciative of the quality software that their team puts out.

Unfortunately, it's been my experience that on Red Hat systems, KDE is impossible to upgrade. I'm not an expert linux user by any means, but I feel comfortable with most aspects of my system. None the less, when installing KDE I seem to find myself deep within the trenches of rpm-hell. Most replies to people with similiar afflictions seem to say, "well, find all the dependancies, it'll be good for you." However, after 50 or so .rpm's, and a seemingly ever-growing list, I gave up. Can you blame me?

acm

Re:rpm hell by sirinek · 2001-09-18 16:01 · Score: 1

kde is what made me switch from redhat to debian. There was so much KDE 1.x shit in RH 6.2 that I couldnt find and get rid of, that my built-from-source kde 2.1.1 would not work at all and hosed parts of my system.

After using apt, I can't see why anyone would want to deal with "RPM hell".

siri
Re:rpm hell by fault0 · 2001-09-18 17:26 · Score: 1

bitch at redhat to make kde the default desktop
Re:rpm hell by Glytch · 2001-09-18 17:41 · Score: 2

There's always Epkg. No more dependancy hell, but everything is still nicely organized for easy upgrading.
Re:rpm hell by beerygaz · 2001-09-18 20:56 · Score: 1

Certainly one of my biggest concerns as a newbie Linux user. Everything workes fine out of the box but when I tired to upgrade KDE to 2.2 it was a nightmare.

OK, I learned a lot about packages and dependencies and some of the various components on my system, but as a newbie I'm concerned about --force'ing updates.

I must have fetched nearly 40 RPM's and still had problems. Did I miss an easier way to upgrade my KDE? A step-by-step guide somewhere (I presumed Red Hat's site would have one) would have helped a novice quite a bit.

--
Deja moo - The feeling you've heard all this bull before.
Re:rpm hell by bero-rh · 2001-09-18 21:12 · Score: 2

Good idea - please report this feature request in Bugzilla in the "distribution" component.

Maybe it'll make some of the people in control see reason. ;)

--
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Re:rpm hell by EcHo2K · 2001-09-18 23:06 · Score: 1

simply --force and --nodeps and the hell is over...once i find any error running KDE i install the required RPM! :D
Re:rpm hell by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 00:32 · Score: 1, Informative

I upgraded roswell without a single problem. Rosewell is the beta release of RedHat's 7.2 or whatever.

Again, this was the smoothest upgrade I have ever experienced for KED on RedHat.
Re:rpm hell by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 01:19 · Score: 0

If you want a distro which is RPM-Based, RedHat compatible and has apt support, switch over to Conectiva Linux 7.0. Have a look at http://www.conectiva.com, and download an ISO from http://www.linuxiso.com (you only need the first CD). We have people on the KDE Team (and on the kernel, XFree and LinuxConf teams also), and KDE packages are released almost simultaneously with the official announcement.
Re:rpm hell by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 07:10 · Score: 0

the download section for the Redhat 6x rpm's contains a very helpful text on upgrading KDE. There is even a script for 6.2 boxes, 6.0 boxes need to be at 6.2 levels. If you have kept up with the package updates at Redhat, it really should not be a problem. I have a 6.0 box, and wasnt about to reinstall just for a newer KDE. It was not that big a pain, If I rememeber, glibc upgrade, rpm upgrade, openssl install, qt upgrade, and the kde rpms themselves, so really, its not that hard.

RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by hpa · 2001-09-18 15:41 · Score: 2

Are there any RPMs anywhere for RedHat 7.1 (seawolf)? The only ones on ftp.kde.org seem to be for 7.2beta (roswell)...

Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by VJoseph · 2001-09-18 16:14 · Score: 1

I figure the Roswell binaries should work on 7.1. I've been using Roswell, so I don't know for sure. You may have to update quite a few packages first. But there are binaries in Red Hat's Rawhide that you could try.

ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/rawhide/i3 86 /RedHat/RPMS
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by Nailer · 2001-09-18 17:44 · Score: 4, Troll

/me mutters something *very nasty* about Bero

If its like KDE 2.2.0, Bero built them for 7.2. If you're silly enough to be running the stable release, you should rebuild every SRPM by hand, and then install a bunch of nonstable non-KDE apps

That's REALLY REALLY DUMB and is wasting vast quantities of everyone's time on the various KDE mailing lists.

Go here to get properly built, working 2.2 packages for 7.1. With any luck our mate ben should make 2.2.1 ones real soon.

Otherwise, ask the Freshrpms guy. Need a working package for anything for a Red Hat system? This guy is nice enough to take requests too.
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by bero-rh · 2001-09-18 21:09 · Score: 3, Informative

I realize that this might be causing problems for some people, but there reasons are simple: timing issues.

Try maintaining 215 packages while not giving up your own devel projects, and you'll know what I mean.

If a day had 48 hours, I'd of course provide RPMs for 7.1, 7.0 and probably even 6.x - but the way things are now, I simply don't have the time to set up boxes with old systems to rebuild the packages and work around legacy compiler bugs (egcs 1.1.x is a pain).

If you want to rebuild them, feel free to do so. In the mean time, I think it's more important to have a nice KDE in the upcoming release, so that's what I'm focusing on.

--
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by mnordstr · 2001-09-18 22:42 · Score: 0

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the latest stable release the most used one, and the one that should get primary attention?
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by bero-rh · 2001-09-18 23:31 · Score: 2

No, the by far most upgrade path is not installing any 3rd party packages, but waiting for the next version of the distribution and upgrading.

Therefore it is far more important to have sane packages in the tree that will constitute the next release (and simply scp'ing them over).

--
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by erikkp · 2001-09-19 00:47 · Score: 1

I had kde2.2 running very well on redhat 7.1, by using beros rpms in the non-kde directory of the release of kde2.2. I have just installed the 2.2.1 rpms released by bero, and it works extremely well, except I can't make kdm run. That is a bit of a nuisance, but not the end of the world. It does mean though that we can not do the upgrade at work at this point.
KDE 2.2.1 is much fatser by the way, so congratulations to th edevelopers.
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 01:06 · Score: 0

You're building packages for something that isn't released yet? I can understand that you may have limited resources, but that's still a bit weak.

Did you see how many architectures and versions SuSE provided? The most recent releases have RPMs available for six architectures; some have more - for i386 the last 4 releases are supported, and for PPC the last 2.
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by Nailer · 2001-09-19 01:38 · Score: 2

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the latest stable release the most used one, and the one that should get primary attention?

No, you're right. I was being sarcastic in that sentence where I called people running the stable Red Hat `silly'. I should have made that more obvious....
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by sombragris · 2001-09-19 08:38 · Score: 1

Bero, the problem is not with you. The problem is with Red Hat which obviously does not care a bit about KDE and its users. Were that the case, perahps it could assign more resources to you or to someone else in any way, but it would get the RPMs built with no strange dependencies and in absolutely no time.

That's all. Red Hat, please get a clue.

--
-- Look to the Rose that blows about us--"Lo, Laughing," she says, "into the World I blow..."
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 14:12 · Score: 0

yo,
I installed the 2.2 Kde Release on top of the
Roswell beta release. Great work. I agree with you, make the next Redhat release great.

BTW is there a release date set?
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by Jebediah21 · 2001-09-19 15:35 · Score: 1

RedHat has more to Gnome than KDE, so I can understand (sort of) why they are not devoting all of their time to KDE. If you like KDE, great. Get Mandrake or something. If RedHat is stupid people will not use their distro. Pretty simple, eh?

--

Everytime you look at porn a devil gets their horns.
Re:RedHat binaries for stock 7.1 (seawolf) by jhittner · 2001-09-20 00:36 · Score: 1

You call your current release "legacy". You know there are people out there who have many desktop machines running redhat 7.1/kde and would like to upgrade kde the the newest stable version without putting beta software on users PCs. Besides doesnt making users upgrade there OS just to get the newest mail client sound like something Microsoft would do? Im really starting to regret moving from SuSE

Mirror by Kevin+DeGraaf · 2001-09-18 15:43 · Score: 2, Informative

Mirror located here: kde-2.2.1. Have fun!

--
We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked.

QT 3.0 by acm · 2001-09-18 15:49 · Score: 1

I have a question for any KDE developers/junkies out there. What are the advantages of porting KDE to QT 3.0? How will it affect the end user? Thanks.

Re:QT 3.0 by anandrajan · 2001-09-18 16:26 · Score: 1

QT 3.0 is supposed to have a universal component model QCOM (runs across windows/linux/os x). My understanding is that KDE 3.0 is not much more than a recompile against QT 3.0 thereby breaking binary compatibility with previous KDE compiled against QT 2.3.x. However, since QT 3.0 has a brand new component model, future KDE releases after KDE 3.0 could start taking advantage of it I suppose.

--
Anand Rangarajan anand@cise.ufl.edu
Re:QT 3.0 by DeeKayWon · 2001-09-18 16:35 · Score: 2

One thing comes to mind that'll make my life a lot easier. GTK has separate cut-n-paste for the mouse buttons and the keyboard. IOW, Ctrl-V will only paste what you copied with Ctrl-C and the middle mouse button will only paste what you highlighted with the mouse. QT 3 will have this. In QT 2.3, they're not separated.
Re:QT 3.0 by fault0 · 2001-09-18 17:30 · Score: 1

Check out http://doc.trolltech.com/3.0/keyfeatures30.html

it's the main changes between qt 2.3.x and 3.0 (beta 5, which came out yesterday)...

mind you, that this list is only the main changes, and there have been numerous more...

the things that I suppose are the most interesting imho are:

improved xrender support (should be about to do things like transparent konsoles in kde3)
new database support
the text editing widget, used in kword, afaik
Re:QT 3.0 by LMCBoy · 2001-09-18 18:41 · Score: 1

You can already do transparent konsoles; they've been in since 2.0

Right-click in the konsole, select "Transparent konsole" from the Schema menu.

You can also customize the schema, but this must be done from KConfig, it isn't available in the konsole menu for some reason...

--
Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
Re:QT 3.0 by fault0 · 2001-09-18 19:27 · Score: 1

Yes, but that's only pseudo-transparency. Real transparency/transcluency can only be acheived with xrender. Note, I'm talking about everything under the transparent window showing through, not jus the root image.
Re:QT 3.0 by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 00:29 · Score: 0

and the middle mouse button will only paste what you highlighted with the mouse.

You know, this is something I really miss when I'm using Windows. I find myself regularly selecting something and then middle-clicking somewhere only to have to go back to the window I came from, select copy from the menu, and then select paste from the menu in the other window.

And to think that there are people who complain about copy/paste being dysfunctional in X11...

No Mandrake RPMS? by bytor4232 · 2001-09-18 15:53 · Score: 1, Funny

What!! No Mandrake 8.0 RPMS?!?!?! We've been disenfranchised!!!

--
-- 4 8 15 16 23 42

Re:No Mandrake RPMS? by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 05:23 · Score: 0

ftp://ftp.eastwind.net/pub/mirrors/texstar/

Re:Sick of Big Downloads? Switch to Linux... by Herstel · 2001-09-18 16:06 · Score: 1

I get 15% faster downloads in Linux than in Windows. I bet that if you ask around, this is common.

I noticed the same thing on Linux, actually I get slightly faster downloads with my new USR 56k external modem than with my old USR internal modem 56k, on the same system. I am not sure but I believe it is up to modem.

Athlon ... by purplemonkeydan · 2001-09-18 16:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

I will now crawl back into my igloo and warm up next to my Athlon. It gets really hot from all this compiling.

Hope that heat sink is on nice and tight. You know what happens if it isn't ...

What defines a Desktop by ll5 · 2001-09-18 16:21 · Score: 1

So how does one define a desktop PC anymore? My linux box does not look like your linux box does not look or feel like my co-workers linux box. The core may be the same, or damn close to it, but the part you interact with can be so many things these days that it makes my head spin.So, how do *you* introduce someone to "linux"? CLI, KDE, Gnome, Blackbox, Windowmaker or what? You almost know that when corporations start to adopt linux on the desktop that they are going to go with KDE for the most part, though Ximian Gnome may have a fighting chance in some arenas. But what about you, the non-corporate linux user? Where do you want to see the desktop go and why?

--
Wanna get high?

Re:What defines a Desktop by fault0 · 2001-09-18 17:32 · Score: 1

I'd say show them KDE and gnome first.. they are probably used to a desktop environment..

you probably want to show them KDE first because (imho) it's a much more "complete" desktop. But that is probably personal taste.
Re:What defines a Desktop by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 18:53 · Score: 0

Wanna get high?

Hell, yeah! :)

BIDI support by sagi · 2001-09-18 16:32 · Score: 1

One of the main features is the bidi support - QT3 have full bidi support.

.To show hebrew/arabic (and other right to left languages) properly , you must have bidi support.

Currently , bidi support for linux is only provided by some hacks. The KDE team did a good job when they added limited bidi support to konqueror so now we can browse logical hebrew websites. But once the KDE3 port is done, all the KDE/QT 3 applications will fully support BIDI (koffice too, hopefully).

Re:BIDI support by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 17:22 · Score: 0

awww isn't that cute.

Re:Sick of Big Downloads? Switch to Linux... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 16:53 · Score: 1, Informative

Depending on the hardware you and your isp are running, externals usually do get better performance. Don't ask me why. There are at least 3 versions of USR modems, the X2, K56Flex, and, then the addition of true v90 standards to the product line. If your telephone lines supports it (most do in the cities and suburbs), than v90 makes a noticable difference. If your internal wasn't V90 and your external is, that's the answer right there.

Distro elitism by ryanvm · 2001-09-18 17:07 · Score: 1, Flamebait

Or you could just call out those 3 little letters that make ya feel so good ... a-p-t.

Granted, this mention was fairly benign - but am I the only one who finds the Debian elitism around here just a little bit annoying?

First Slashdotters ragged on everyone that didn't use Linux. Then that got boring and now everyone who doesn't use Debian is clueless. Let me guess, next target: GNOME users.

Where will you people stop with your Taco worship?

Oh and by the way - mod me as a troll, I don't give a fuck. I gots karma to burn.

Re:Distro elitism by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 17:45 · Score: 0

"Where will you people stop with your Taco worship?"

What does an individual preference for apt-get style package management have to do with Taco?

Oh, I get it - if it weren't for CT, no one else would know about apt, so it's all his fault..
Re:Distro elitism by Glytch · 2001-09-18 17:53 · Score: 2

Granted, this mention was fairly benign - but am I the only one who finds the Debian elitism around here just a little bit annoying?
Nope. What's truly ironic about Debian is that it's supposed to be the purest form of Free Software, yet most of the Debian users I've talked to get irritated when I mention that I prefer compiling programs from source instead of just downloading a binary.
Re:Distro elitism by redcliffe · 2001-09-18 17:56 · Score: 0

>Granted, this mention was fairly benign - but am I the only one who finds the Debian elitism around here just a little bit annoying?

It's not our fault that we're better than you!! :-P

Here's a quater kid, go download a real Linux distro....
Re:Distro elitism by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 18:01 · Score: 0

Like this one?
Packages are for weenies.
Re:Distro elitism by Woko · 2001-09-18 18:17 · Score: 2, Funny

First Slashdotters ragged on everyone that didn't use Linux. Then that got boring and now everyone who doesn't use Debian is clueless. Let me guess, next target: GNOME users.

Nah, Linux itself is too easy for the elite. BSD is the way to go now.

--
---
Silence is consent.
Re:Distro elitism by catscan2000 · 2001-09-18 18:19 · Score: 1

I knew a Debian user a couple years ago. Quite an elitist, and didn't like my idea of integrating version control into the filesystem (now it's going to be possible to do it with reisierfs :-). Though, every person is unique, and there are plenty of open-minded Debian and RedHat/Mandrake/Slackware/etc users alike.

Comments like "a-p-t" don't make me want to rush out and install Debian on my computers. Nor does it make me infuriated because I prefer rpm. Instead, it makes me curious because I've heard many good things about Debian and some bad things. Mandrake Cooker solves my present computing needs extremely well, and I currently don't have the time or will at the moment to learn a new distribution, but if I had the luxury of time, I would definitely try Debian :). I personally happen to like the naming convention of RPM much better, where the version number and platform are in the name, but either package manager does the same job so it doesn't really matter. Let's get on with life :-).
Re:Distro elitism by Gnight · 2001-09-18 18:20 · Score: 1

Downloading other people's software is for weenies, real men just write their own. (-:

Why waste the bandwidth? Any REAL man can write software from scratch faster than it takes to download/install off the internet.
Re:Distro elitism by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 19:10 · Score: 0

pshaw. mere mortals have been able to install the last 3 or 4 major releases of FreeBSD. The _REAL_ elite have moved on to AtheOS and QNX.
Re:Distro elitism by mbanck · 2001-09-18 20:41 · Score: 1

> Nah, Linux itself is too easy for the elite. BSD is the way to go now.

Good thing Debian/BSD is already worked on :)

Anyway, _real_ men use Debian GNU/Hurd. Well I don't :-/

Michael
Re:Distro elitism by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 22:49 · Score: 0

Errr, QNX hard to install?

Hahahaha!

In other news: BeOS 5 Personal Edition is hard to install...

*giggle*

I bet you struggled opening the box your iMac came in...
Re:Distro elitism by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 22:58 · Score: 0

How times have changed.

A year ago I would have called Slashdot biased in favour of GNOME. With the GNOME Foundation being announced, and that idiot Miguel being a walking vapourware producer for Eazel, everyone ignored the KDE as they released KDE 2.0, which took KDE ever further in front of GNOME.

And then, the biggest turning point: Konqueror. Easily the best open-source browser around, and it wasn't massivly overhyped. Now KDE is still growing, and GNOME is struggling to pull together a 2.0 release, let alone making GNOME 1.0 to GNOME 2.0 the revolutionary step KDE 1.0 to 2.0 was.

Now, ever Slashdot, the GNOME whore, has now started to turn pro-KDE. And now the gnomes that use GNOME are whining.

Sorry, the tech bubble burst. Now the true open-source project is pulling far out in the lead, not the one sucking the corporate tit.

GNOME is dying. Jump ship now.
Re:Distro elitism by unapersson · 2001-09-18 23:56 · Score: 1

apt works on Mandrake as well... I changed to using it a few weeks back. It takes a little while to make you system apt friendly, but:

apt-get -f upgrade

will resolve most problems. It doesn't like multiple packages with the same name though, so you'll need to remove any duplicates.
Re:Distro elitism by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 00:48 · Score: 0

What's truly ironic about Debian is that it's supposed to be the purest form of Free Software, yet most of the Debian users I've talked to get irritated when I mention that I prefer compiling programs from source instead of just downloading a binary

Where do you get that Debian is supposed to be the purest form of Free Software? I always thought that Slackware was the purest form of Free Software. Personally, even though I'm a major Debian fan I'm not that hot on the whole FSF/Free Software mindset. It's a little too extremist for me. The GPL is fine, but all the rest Stallman spews forth breathes too much zealotry.

Having said that, the reason most Debian users frown upon compiling from source is because Debian only functions smoothly when you follow the package system. This means that you need to install packages, instead of downloading tarballs and doing a configure/make/make install. As soon as you diverge from using the debian packages it becomes harder keeping your system clean and "debianized".
The thing is, that you don't have to download binary packages to use the package system. You can download the source/diffs and dsc files from the debian servers and build your own custom package from that easily. I've done it before when I wanted something in debian stable that wasn't in debian stable. But there seem to be a lot of debian users who don't know that, and who therefore frown upon source installs.
Re:Distro elitism by archen · 2001-09-19 01:25 · Score: 1

actually once Red Hat managed to piss me off for the millionth time, I decided to go with something else. I figured, 'hell why not go all the way and try Free BSD'. Surprisingly I found BSD to be very easy to install and use - and performed a bit better than Linux (most of the time). Of course some of that ease of use goes out the window once you have to jump through hoops in order to upgrade something (which was probably meant to run on Linux).
Re:Distro elitism by henley · 2001-09-19 01:46 · Score: 2
There's no way of putting this without seeming:
- Smarmy
- Elitist
- Pedantic
- Trivial
...But, you have heard of "apt-get source xxx", right?
(Very VERY usefull in the frequently-named dependency-conflict situations above: Don't have a version of "foo" that works with "bar-1.2.3-10"? "apt-get -b source foo".....
--

--
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Re:Distro elitism by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 01:56 · Score: 0

I've had a whole computer dedicated to AtheOS since 0.3.0, and have been running AtheOS since 0.1.3 (Before the first Slashdot anouncement), when you still had to boot it from inside DOS!

How elite does this make me?

P.S: If eliteness is measured by the difficulty of installtion, AtheOS doesn't rank compared to say, NetBSD 0.9 on an Amiga 1200. Now that hurt. Although AtheOS is a lot more satisfying...
Re:Distro elitism by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 01:58 · Score: 0

GNU/Hurd has drivers!

Now, AtheOS is more like it. Oh yeah, no bootable CD's here baby! Give me three floppy disks and a FAT partition any day! Installtions scripts be damned!
Re:Distro elitism by Glytch · 2001-09-19 02:20 · Score: 2

Actually, I hadn't, and this sounds damned useful. I think I'll go get apt and stick it on my Slackware box now...
Re:Distro elitism by Buck2 · 2001-09-19 02:21 · Score: 1

Just install everything non-Debian in /usr/local.

I don't see the problem.

--

As my father lik@(munch munch)... ....
Re:Distro elitism by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 05:32 · Score: 0

"... I personally happen to like the naming convention of RPM much better, where the version number and platform are in the name, but either package manager does the same job so it doesn't really matter."

The version and platform info are in the filename of the .deb files, they're just not used when using apt-get to install a package. You get the version available from the package repository in your sources.list file, and you can select from multiple sources, and the platform is automatically selected based on what you're currently running on.
Re:Distro elitism by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 11:22 · Score: 0

Don't worry you aren't missing anything... Debian blows

Re:Now that's a useful changelog by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 17:19 · Score: 0

Now why did this get modded down. The parent poster had a point. Posting a changelog full of "various fixes" type updates isn't exactly the most useful thing. Posting here is just being a grade 'A' karma whore.

Speaking of KDE... by Teancom · 2001-09-18 17:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

I've been a Gnome + Enlightenment man ever since the 0.14 days of E and the initial betas of Gnome. *Hated* the whole KDE 1.x line, from the looks to the "usability" to the looks.... ;-) Anyways, I followed the party line, accepted that KDE was evil because of the whole QT thing, couldn't stand the looks (did I mention that?) and even when they started shipping themes, they were all butt ugly. Well, the 2.0 release rolled around, I heard good things, wasn't interested. 2.1 came, wackos were raving about konqueror on /., I was running sid so I said "what the heck" and installed it.

Instant love.

Kmail is the client that I've always wanted for linux, and could never find. It is the *only* client that has managed to pull me away from my beloved mutt. Nice. Clean. Simple. Stable. Luckily, I don't need imap support (though it has been in the last couple versions, it's pretty beta'ish), ldap, smtp-auth, or any other "esoteric" feature. Gpg-support works quite well, it just rocks *quietly*.

Konsole was a delight. I had previously tried super-term (I think) that had the same basic idea (multiple terms in one window) but the interface was clunky enough it was unusable (at the time, haven't tried it in a couple years). shift-arrow to cycle through the terms, instant configurability (i.e., no editing Eterm config files by hand), again, just plain rocked.

Konqueror. Don't really have much to say that hasn't already been said. About the only thing I *don't* use it for is managing files :-) Dunno if it's just habit, or if it's a failing in gui fm's, but if I want to move a file, I alt-tab to konsole, then "cp ~/fi[tab] /tm[tab]ba[tab]foo.gz" and I'm done. I truly can't imagine /any/ gui that could improve on that. But as a web browser, it is more stable than IE (not that IE is stable, but it still locks up on me occasionaly, whereas with the stable releases of KDE, a crash is noteworth), pretty standards compliant, and if it supported https through an authenticating proxy, I would be 97% of the way to removing all other browsers from my machine.

Kdevelop and kde-designer (though that's not really a KDE project) rock my world. I am a crappy coder, and fairly inexperienced in c++, but I have been able to help out the main kpilot developer simply by recreating the kpilot config screens in designer, allowing him to focus on getting usb support up to speed rather than rewriting the interface. I know there are some old-school programmers shaking their head at these new-fangled gui toys that lower the bar so much, but anything that allows a newbie like me to help out with one of his favorite OS projects and actually make a difference (the next version of kpilot that ships will be with my GUI) is nothing but a good thing.

Anyways, to make a long story short (heh), if you haven't tried KDE since the 1.x days, this is the time. You will be pleasantly suprised, and may even make the switch. If not, then happy Gnomeing, or BlackBoxing, or WindowMakering, or CommandLineCommandoing. Just have fun! The world is too great a place to worry about what other people are using for their desktop.

Re:Speaking of KDE... by redcliffe · 2001-09-18 17:48 · Score: 0

The only thing I don't like about KDevelop is that you have to use a separate program to develop GUI's and they don't particularly intergrate well. I would like to see a KDevelop that looks and feels like Visual Basic in windows.
Re:Speaking of KDE... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 17:49 · Score: 0

Yeah, I agree, I used KDE 1.0 and KDE 1.1 for a while (alternating between that and windowmaker, and before GNOME was a real alternative). I then followed the general concensious, and began using GNOME 1.0 + Enlightement for a while. I didn't really like GNOME 1.0, but KDE 1.x seemed to windows-ish (which was a superficial statement, looking back). I then used blackbox+kfm for a while. Then I used GNOME 1.2 for a long time, starting out with GNOME+E and then switching to GNOME+sawmill/sawfish. In that time were stints of WindowMaker and blackbox useage :).
I then proceded to try out KDE 1.9.x (alphas/betas of KDE2), after I heard that KDE had changed a lot. After a lot of messing around, I finally got it to work. I was really amazed with it.
Well, needless to say, somehow the libs broke and it stopped working in a few days :). After that, I started using blackbox for a while.
Then I got a new box and used blackbox for a while more. Notice that I never switched back to GNOME or installed KDE 2.0, which had come out by then. I probably didn't install KDE 2.0 because of all issues with Qt, which all seems silly to me now.
Well, KDE 2.1 came out. I tried it. It was really, really nice. I made it my desktop of choice. GNOME 1.4 then came out. I noticed that not much had changed since GNOME 1.2, except for Nautilus. At that time, Nautilus barely worked (did I mention that it was really, really slow?). After installing GNOME 1.4, I ditched it. Eventually, after a several months (a few weeks ago), I tried some of the new applications that have come of the GNOME world. Nautilus has gotten faster, but konqueror seems to be a bit more versitile (especially with the audiocd stuff), as well as faster for both file managing and web browsing. This is probably becuase it has less eye candy. Galeon is also very nice, but It didn't seem to work "well" with the desktop. It didn't feel like a native app, mainly because of small things like the scrollbar and popup menus and such. Evolution is also pretty nice, but I don't really need it's groupware stuff. For my purposes, kmail and knode fit me fine.
So what am I typing this from? KDE 2.2 (soon to be 2.2.1). I don't forsee this changing anytime soon, as KDE 3 will probably comeout before GNOME 2.0 with the current development speed. And while I think the changes in GNOME 2.0 will be important architecturally, I think that the changes KDE will have with Qt will be *cooler*, imho. That's probably because the changes in KDE are a lot more tangible.
Re:Speaking of KDE... by Rentar · 2001-09-18 23:27 · Score: 1

You've just reproduced almost exactly my way from KDE->Gnome+E->Gnome+sawfish/sawmill->KDE ...

almost, 'cause I'm again back to Gnome ... why? Simple as that: I'm too used to the power of sawfish and sawfish doesn't work with kde... I didn't find a way to keep my gkrellm from interfering with my alt-tab-task-switching ...

Now I use konqueror for browsing and every now and then for simple "let's-view-this-file-in-a-nice-gui" "file-managing" (well, I think thats more in the line of file-viewing)
If KDE manages to work with sawfish (or the other way round) they will have me locked to them for quite a time ...
Re:Speaking of KDE... by tuxisuau · 2001-09-19 00:13 · Score: 1

I did the same. But now i use only Enlightenment. integrated desktops like kde or gnome are not for me. Eterm its not bad, but it's still a torture to work in terminals use X, i hope someday there will be a Eterm with alt+fx switching of terminals in a single window.. Today, i prefer to work in framebuffer (lovely! 1600x1200 framebuffer its lovely!). I still enjoy to see how KDE & GNOME grow up, my brother uses them in his X server, and I like to test them sometimes. I feel that with kde, galeon, xmms, mplayer, etc you have all that a home user needs (with the lack of gaming). MPlayer tastes very good. I like to say to my windows friends "divx... it runs 40% faster on linux". And I can see DVDs too :).
Re:Speaking of KDE... by Balinares · 2001-09-19 02:08 · Score: 3, Interesting

I truly can't imagine /any/ gui that could improve on that.

Then try this: start Konqueror as a file manager, and select 'Open a terminal' from the 'Window' menu. And there, you have the best of both worlds. Of course, you can drag'n'drop files and directories from the FM subwindow to the terminal one. I still find it a bit rough (as of KDE 2.1 anyway), but it's a nifty feature that certainly has a brilliant future ahead of it! :)

--

-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
Re:Speaking of KDE... by tzanger · 2001-09-19 03:40 · Score: 2

Anyways, to make a long story short (heh), if you haven't tried KDE since the 1.x days, this is the time. You will be pleasantly suprised, and may even make the switch. If not, then happy Gnomeing, or BlackBoxing, or WindowMakering, or CommandLineCommandoing. Just have fun! The world is too great a place to worry about what other people are using for their desktop.

What I've been doing for ages is pretty desktop-agnostic: I use WindowMaker because it's (IMHO) far cleaner than KDM or Gnome's WM, doesn't have any sign of a taskbar or "start/K/footprint" button and pretty much stays the hell out of my way.

I've found a certain fondness for the rightclick on the desktop menu -- it takes no room and can be called up anywhere. The clip and dock are a bit of a pain in my arse but I think that's more because I haven't sat down in all these years and really tried to make them do what I want.

One Dockapp I've been meaning to write for a long time now is a replacement for KDE and Gnome's "system tray" -- the docapp could hold 9 16x16 "systray" icons and would pass off the approprate mouseclicks/movements to the apps as normal. I've seen a few Dockapps that swallow other apps but it's not quite the same idea.

One thing I wish I could have in any WM is the ability to bind keys to applications. I'd love to have my alt-backspace pull up the next LICQ message like I did in Windows but I haven't figured out a way to either make LICQ see the key nor have WindowMaker pass it off. Perhaps in my copious spare time I can figure it out. :-)
Re:Speaking of KDE... by spencerogden · 2001-09-19 04:30 · Score: 1

Permit me to be stupid and ask what the "ausiocd stuff" is?

--
Spencer Ogden
Re:Speaking of KDE... by Rich · 2001-09-19 04:56 · Score: 2

The 'audiocd stuff' is a new KIOSlave that allows you to rip music CDs, it supports ripping to WAV, mp3 or OggVobis and uses cddb (or equivalent) to get the track listing too. Basically this means that you can just put an audio cd in your cdrom drive and type 'audiocd:'.

Cheers

Rich.
Re:Speaking of KDE... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 06:41 · Score: 0

Uhh, sawfish works with KDE as well as it does with GNOME, dumbfuck.

They support the NET wm scheme (used in kde 2.0 and gnome 1.4)
Re:Speaking of KDE... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 06:43 · Score: 0

Avifile's aviplay seems a bit faster than mplayer.. they use the same libs but aviplay has less bugs.

Use Cooker by leonbrooks · 2001-09-18 17:27 · Score: 2

Might take a while ATM 'coz they're in deep-freeze for 8.1 but normally less than 24hrs before a new set of RPMs exist.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

No worries, just get MS to OS ActiveX by leonbrooks · 2001-09-18 17:38 · Score: 2

Once KDE and Konqueror offer complete active X controls in a sane environment, that will be enough for me to switch from Gnome. I am constantly stuck having to either walk to a new machine or reboot just to administer my NT boxes, and it really is a pain in the ass.

Since it really is Microsoft's fault for not using Java or something else portable for their admin tools in the first place, complain to Microsoft. Ask them to rewrite the NT admin tools to use standards, and/or to Open Source the ActiveX environment so that people can write tools for it (1) without expensive licences and (2) without putting their code at risk.

Alternatively, use VNC, it's free and cross-platform.

Final alternative, use the (ghasp) command-line tools. Many competent NT admins practically never leave the command line. You can even put up a telnet (if you are sure there are no sniffers on your LAN) or ssh daemon and use that.

--OR-- since NT is such a PiTA to admin, ditch it.

Put a Mandrake box in there and use your choice of WebMin or LinuxConf for web-based admin, or install one of the many other fine admin packages, or (ghasp again) use ssh and that dreaded command line. If you need to do that last from Windows, go to Google and type putty and click feeling-lucky. Small, secure, no DLLs, no problemo. Follow the link at the bottom of the page for a point-and-click Windows-based ssh file manager.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

Re:No worries, just get MS to OS ActiveX by grungie · 2001-09-18 19:24 · Score: 1

NT DOES NOT have a proper shell environment out of the box. Tell me how to do arithmetic with the MS shell tools, execute a while loop or even a diff.

The MS diff implementation is so poor that it is unable to find its way back from the moment is catches a non-matching character. Add a space somewhere and all lines from that point will be reported different because the implementation is character-based instead of line-based.

Use Cygwin instead. It features SSH 2.

grungie

KDE fscking up systems by manon · 2001-09-18 17:52 · Score: 0, Flamebait

I just hope this version doesn't fsck up systems like the previous did. I know someone that had to reinstall his system because KDE fscked up glibc.

--
42 + 1 = 42

Re:KDE fscking up systems by fault0 · 2001-09-18 17:56 · Score: 1

kde doesn't fsck up glibc.. blame the packagers/distro (they might be the same)
Re:KDE fscking up systems by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 00:19 · Score: 0

And HOW the fawking hell is KDE related to glibc!?!?!?!

Re:Now that's a useful changelog by geekster · 2001-09-18 18:17 · Score: 1

First of all let me point you to:
"KDesktop: fixed sever bug where renaming a file on the desktop would destroy it."

And have you even looked at the topic of the post? This is about the realease of KDE 2.2.1, and the changelog wasn't in the post so I find this comment very useful. Quit your moaning.

Thanks, KDE guys! by Legion303 · 2001-09-18 18:23 · Score: 1

I spent an entire day last week compiling 2.2.0. D'oh!

2.2.0 is so stable for me that I think I'll wait for 3.0 for my next upgrade. Someone else mentioned that 3.0 will break binary compatibility with 2.x.x--anyone care to confirm this? I really don't want to have to recompile everything I'm running under KDE...on the other hand, maybe in 3.0 I'll finally be able to use Opera as my default browser for URLs. Konqueror refuses to go away no matter what I tell it.

-Legion

Grab from Cooker by leonbrooks · 2001-09-18 18:27 · Score: 2

Might need a few dependencies, but nothing harsh. Unfortunate timing, though, might be a week or so before cooker unfreezes after 8.1final.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

Wait a sec by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 18:27 · Score: 0

Whats wrong with this picture ???

FTP Error
Could not login to FTP server
We have currently 242 out of 240 possible users in your class
Please try again later
User anonymous access denied.

Re:Wait a sec by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 04:37 · Score: 0

2 people (you and someone else) were trying to connect on top of the 240 already in.

240 + you attenpting a connection + someone else attempting a connection = 242

Just my theory.

Re:Upgrading...May have to wait though... by RadioheadKid · 2001-09-18 18:33 · Score: 1

Although it looks like you may have to wait for the Mandrake binaries, they don't appear to be on the mirrors I checked at least...not sure about ftp.kde.org, couldn't get to it. But I'm sure they will be available very soon.

--
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -Homer Simpson

KDE 2.2.x isn't available for Potato (Debian2.2r3) by matty · 2001-09-18 18:35 · Score: 2

...and it never will be. There are too many changes in libraries, etc. and the backporting would not only be way more work than it is worth, but then you wouldn't have a very "stable" environment due to a lack of testing, which is why you use a stable environment in the first place, right?

Many people are using Debian testing and unstable with quite good results. I am using Potato (stable) with KDE 2.1.2 and am very happy with it. Woody should be out next spring with KDE 2.2 and I can wait until then, myself.

Cheers.........

Icewm? by matty · 2001-09-18 18:37 · Score: 2

Sure, it's laid out like Win9x, but it's FAST! I haven't looked at memory footprints, but it loads in a snap.

You're not witty by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 18:39 · Score: 0

You're an ass. You're always whining about your cheap ass piece of shit printer that broke because you were too stupid to read about the fact that it was incompatible with Linux.

Quit whining or take a hike.

Re:You're not witty by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 17:07 · Score: 0

how about you stop fucking you mom

Nice grammar, cheesehead! And so very witty, just like you always are!

Gee, I sit at home alone at night, dreaming of being as creative and erudite as you.

*sigh* Some day, perhaps, some day....

You're right, unfortunately by matty · 2001-09-18 18:44 · Score: 2

apt can only -get the packages that are available, or that the dependencies are fulfilled on. Debian is usually behind other distros when it comes to the latest software, but it's just rock stable and also very secure. Nothing else compares.

I'm running Potato with KDE 2.1.2 and am very happy with it (using Mozilla0.9.4 as my browser, which is very nice). Woody will be out next year and KDE 2.2.1 with it. I can wait. :)

Re:You're right, unfortunately by Cyclopatra · 2001-09-18 22:53 · Score: 2

While Potato is most certainly behind other distros, Sid is definitely not. Potato is absolutely wonderful for servers, but I'm not sure why you'd want to use it for your desktop. Sid is, if anything, far ahead of all other distros when it comes to binary packages. They're there faster, they're better, and they're easier to install:)

Besides, so long as you don't have a nightly dist-upgrade cron job, Sid is at the very least as stable as most other distros:)

--
"We can't all, and some of us don't." -- Eeyore
Re:You're right, unfortunately by matty · 2001-09-19 05:31 · Score: 2

I tried Sid (when KDE 2.2 first came out), and it worked more or less, but fonts were all screwed up and there were a couple of things that were broken ( I forget what now). I decided to just go back to Potato.

I don't see any reason to upgrade until Woody is ready since I'm not missing anything. I have a mailserver/firewall on my DSL connection at mattyt.net and I access my mail there using Pine (from anywhere, even Windoze using PuTTY, gawd I love Linux!) and I also have IMP installed so I can get my mail through a browser.

On my workstation, XMMS plays mp3's, smpeg-gtv plays .mpg's (I haven't found anything to reliably play .avi's, suggestions?), Mozilla0.9.4 is GREAT!, and KDE 2.1.2 is really nice. Yes, KDE 2.2.x is faster and has a few more features, but I have a 750mhz machine with 256mb so speed isn't really an issue and, as I said, I'm not missing anything.

Sometimes Sid, or even Woody, breaks things and I'm tired of mucking about with things. Potato is just totally rock stable and provides everything I want, so I just use it.

Cheers! :)
Re:You're right, unfortunately by rastamatra · 2001-09-19 07:44 · Score: 1

Try MPlayer for playing AVI's.
It's better than most avi players out there. There's even a skinnable GUI on the way :-)
There's no .deb package, but it's damn easy to install (most options are autodetected).

It works with a remote control too :-)
Re:You're right, unfortunately by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 08:45 · Score: 0

for avi files, use
apt-get install avifile-player

you might have to download the codecs from the
libavifile homepage separately, but it works
well for both avi and asf files.

Training and Planning are the keys. by foo+fighter · 2001-09-18 18:56 · Score: 4, Interesting

Linux is soooo ready for the desktop. I know this comes up every time KDE or Gnome are brought up, but it actually pains me to keep hearing ignorant arguments.

The Windows 98SE desktop (and 2000, XP, etc.) in its default installation is not office desktop ready. There are several confusing or worthless icons that need to be cleaned up, display properties to adjust, shortcuts to create, etc. I've spent at least 40 hours honing my company's system images to get them 'just right'.

I haven't used Gnome at work, and so can't comment on it. But I've set up KDE systems and it didn't take me near 40 hours to set up 'just right'.

And guess what I found out? When I put new employees/users through their mandatory IT training they picked up on KDE at least as fast as with Windows. Most of these users have had very little computer experience.

I wish I had better documented this when I started. But the users were able to use their word processor and spreadsheet, surf the web, check and send e-mail, print, use network storage and printers, and not fuck up their workstation at least as well on KDE 2.2 as on Windows 98SE.

The key here, and the key that seems to be missing in all other discussions on this topic, is that the users were trained to use KDE. I don't know of any organization with a moderately organized IT system that doesn't have a training department or IT training of some sort.

I've found it's easier to teach users Linux than Windows, so here's what all you code monkeys and sys admins need to do: teach the teachers linux. They'll see that it's easier to use and to teach and will back you up when you go to the CTO/CIO.

KDE is great. It is ready for the desktop. Get your training department's shit together and teach users how to use linux. Plan and test the desktop and start menu so your people can use it. No one can figure out how to use a computer by just sitting in front of one, they need to be taught. It's easier to teach if you're the one who's set the system up.

Honing our Windows images has dramatically cut Help Desk calls. I'm sure the Help Desk techs will be showering me with even more free lunches and drinks on them when Linux spreads throughout our organization.

Get to it!

--
obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies

Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by Stentapp · 2001-09-18 22:11 · Score: 1

I agree with your comments about Windows. You cannot do much with a standard Windows installation. Like using/browsing .zip files, .pdf files and more.

The better parts of Windows is not made by MS, it's done by third parts enhancing the desktop like WinZip, WinAMP, ICQ, Acrobat Reader, ACDSee Image Viewer and so on.

Personally, I think a Windows desktop without those programs/utilities is quite a useless desktop. For my needs anyway.
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by uebernewby · 2001-09-19 00:16 · Score: 2

KDE is great. It is ready for the desktop. Get your training department's shit together and teach users how to use linux.

You're forgetting the small matter of KDE not supporting MS Office

--

News and bla for computer musicians: http://lomechanik.net/
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by jamesots · 2001-09-19 00:38 · Score: 1

Okay, teach the teachers KOffice as well.

--
Ho hum for the life of a bear
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by cybrthng · 2001-09-19 00:55 · Score: 2

Any desktop without the apps is useless.. But i find it amusing when someone says it takes 40 hours to get there windows pc looking like they want it..

I installed Windows XP, Office XP, PCAnywhere 10.0, Aurorean VPN Client, Netscape 4.72, Oracle forms & reports developer 6i, Lotus Noties, SecureCRT, Winamp, Winzip, Acdsee, Toad, Quest Spotlight, Oracle 8.1.7 client, Unreal tournament, microsoft money and norton antivirus all within a 4-5 hour time frame before it was even lunch time.

Hell, i disabled all the idiot proof stuff, was running in high res with every device working and functional docked/undocked, had my own desktop look and custom theme going and still had plenty of time to spare..

Atleast with windows i'm able to work remotely, manage NT, Unix and other proprietary systems, manage my finances, play games, manage our application and database systems as well as whatever else i want.. hardly taking 40 hours of my time..

with linux i spent 20 minutes download & updating kernel, an hour chasing a non clogged kde server to grab sources to compile kde and then a day compiling kde only to go back and try and spend an hour removing conflicting packages.. blahh. blahh..

every os has its advantages and disadvantages. I'll give KDE a thought once it is 3.0, since that has object inheritance and features akin to OS/2 that i love...

hell, i might just give http://www.ecommstation.com a try and see how os/2's revival is doing :)
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by the_2nd_coming · 2001-09-19 01:24 · Score: 1

why are you Down Loading a new kernel and new KDE sources? if you are running production machines you should stick with the boxed stuff.

what would be nice is if Red Hat would follow Mandrakes lead and come out ith Update CDs so people can pay $10-$15 to get updated kernel, Libs, Desktop, etc. that way people can update thier corprate lan with full support from the Distrobution, of cource RH does have its RHNetwork, but CDs are still nice to have, they feal real and real is what companies want.

--

I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by archen · 2001-09-19 01:37 · Score: 1

mark me down for flaimbait or whatever, but I have this belief that Linux will not be ready for the desktop until you can put in and take out floppy disks without worrying about mounting them. Call it trivial if you will, but I know a lot of people who still port stuff around with floppies. At the university help desk where I used to work, this was a constant problem with the Linux cluster - people managing to figure out how to mount a disk, but later just ejecting and leaving - which left the mount state in confusion and the next person unable to use the floppy.
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by symbolic · 2001-09-19 02:40 · Score: 1

Linux is soooo ready for the desktop.

I wish that were true. There are still a few very key issues that need to be worked out. First, is the issue of upgrades. Upgrades should be painless, prompt, and transparent. In other words, dependencies are no longer the user's problem, but a problem to be resolved by whatever upgrade method is used. Even if upgrades are left to the admins, an organization will definitely have to look at TCO issues, and the amount of resources required to make Linux work. Second, I've noticed, using KWord, for example, that the concept of "what you see is what you get" doesn't quite apply. I suspect that this is because ghostscript, when producing the output, has its own ideas about how something should look. Nonetheless, this is old hat. "What you see is what you get" has now become a reasonable expectation on the part of the average user, and need to be a part of Linux.

On the positive side, KDE and KOffice look very cool and very polished. I applaud the developers for their effort.
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by maroberts · 2001-09-19 03:48 · Score: 1

You're forgetting the small matter of KDE not supporting MS Office

No, but you can probably export to a common file format (RTF ?). The fact that KOffice does not support MS Office files is not damning if all your files are produced locally. However, more seriously KOffice is still not as professional as MSOffice in terms of features and even reliability, and I think it will be about 6-12 months before it gets close.

The fact that KDE does not have every feature MSWord does is not really a bad thing either (we can all get along without that damn paperclip for instance), but prospective buyers will compare KWord and MSWord using a blob comparison chart and work out KWord is the poor relation, despite the fact that the missing features are usaully the ones that no one uses.

--
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Karma: Chameleon
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 05:42 · Score: 0

"No, but you can probably export to a common file format (RTF ?)."

Not if you want to have all the tables, figures, table of contents, index, cross-references, etc in the exported document. RTF is quite a small subset of what any current word proc file format (.doc, .abw, .kwd) can contain.
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 05:45 · Score: 0

"The fact that KOffice does not support MS Office files is not damning if all your files are produced locally."

But it *is* damning if you exchange important files with other people at other companies, and those files are Word files and are going to remain Word files 'cause that's what those other folks use.
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by maroberts · 2001-09-19 06:12 · Score: 1

Whilst I agree that RTF probably doesn't support everything, I would be surprised if it did not support most of the functions you have mentioned.
I am fairly certain that of the list you mentioned, only figures may not be supported.

When I mentioned RTF, I only chose this format as a possible candidate for transfer. HTML springs to mind as another one, although what Word normally does to HTML is to horrendous to mention in polite company.

--
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Karma: Chameleon
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by epukinsk · 2001-09-19 06:17 · Score: 1

Linux is soooo ready for the desktop.

Don't get me wrong... Linux is great, and I'm very excited about it's future on the desktop, but I just installed Windows XP over my Win2k partition last night, and it's quite clear that Linux has a good distance further to go.

Managing digital photos and other files for instance is a dream on XP. You can sort photos by date taken and the thumbnail engine is blazingly fast. Burning files to a CD or ordering prints online is one click away. In the control panel, the most common tasks are brought to the forefront, and many moderately advanced tasks can be done by newbies.

Linux, on the other hand, can be very difficult to configure. Even simple changes in managing user profiles, networking, managing hardware and software are often impossible for a non-hacker user to figure out without taking an afternoon to learn about the back end. Most configuration options are available only thought the command line.

There's more... centralized, stardardized help, universal anti-aliasing, task-based interaction, and a very solid, robust feeling interface all make Windows a better experience (not to proliferate MS's lame slogan) a nicer one.

Of course, we have Ximian Setup Tools, Pango, Nautilus and dozens of other projects that are addressing these issues right now, so I'm nothing but optimistic that Linux will be a desktop contender some day.

-Erik
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by swright · 2001-09-19 07:29 · Score: 1

Interesting - but at the same time I think its unfair comparing an easy task (looking at photos) in XP and a hard task (networking, managing hardware/software) on Linux.

I agree that there is a lot further to go before Linux reaches XP - but lets not forget that XP hasnt been released yet and that many of its 'new features' UNIX/Linux has had for years. Seriously, have a look at the Technical Overview and you'll see - over half of them Linux already has. Admittedly its a bit harder to set up, but even so...
Re:Training and Planning are the keys. by Electrum · 2001-09-19 20:57 · Score: 1

Debian's package management does transparent upgrades. The apt-get tool automatically calculates dependencies, and downloads and installs the appropriate packages. Conflict resolution is automatic. It is very similiar to FreeBSD's ports in some aspects, and it is likely that at least one of the projects used ideas from the other. I wish FreeBSD did upgrades as as nicely as Debian, and I wish Debian made it easy to build from source with different options (i.e. present a menu).

For a desktop or workstation, I can't see an easier way to do package management. Debian was the first Linux distro that I started using, because my friends who used Linux used it, and I can't imagine switching to anything else. I've tried RPM based systems, and installing anything is a mess. Getting the right version and the right dependencies must be done manually and is a chore. I'm sure there are tools now to do it for you, but Debian has had for at least several years and it works great. I run sid (the unstable distribution version) and upgrade my system daily with the two commands shown below. Everything upgrades seamlessly, and when it needs to do something like upgrade a configuration file, it gives an option to tell it what to do, but otherwise it just does it's thing without requiring any intervention.

apt-get update apt-get dist-upgrade

APT isn't distro of packaging system specific by Nailer · 2001-09-18 19:07 · Score: 2

It works well in Connectiva and Mandrake, both of which are RPM based. Which is a good thing, as RPM is the Linux Standard Base packaging system, and far more used.

Debian's has some advantages in terms of packaging
1. Lots of available packaged software
2. A good set of packaging guidelines

Neither issue is to do with packaging systems but rather higher level tools and other considerations.

Red Hat could just as easily put KDE 2.2.1 in their up2date mirrors, but they don't. Which is a damned pity.

Re:APT isn't distro of packaging system specific by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 00:55 · Score: 0

Actually, Debian's packaging system has a more fine-grained dependancy model than RPM. It can offer alternatives, and suggestions. RPM is catching up in that respect though.

Maybe in the future when RPM and dpkg have feature-equivalence all distro's could synchronize on one of them, or a mixture. It would be handy if I didn't have to run alien each time I want to install an rpm on my debian system. Just understand that Debian used dpkg for a reason instead of rpm. When dpkg was first designed and written rpm simply wasn't up to the task.

You're right about apt though, it IS package system agnostic. Which is a good thing. Now if only all the distro manufacturers could adopt it, that would be a better thing, because after having spent some time using apt, I can honestly no longer understand why it's not universal across all distro's.
Re:APT isn't distro of packaging system specific by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 05:35 · Score: 0

" Now if only all the distro manufacturers could adopt it, that would be a better thing, because after having spent some time using apt, I can honestly no longer understand why it's not universal across all distro's."

Same reason as most other computer-related choices: inertia of the installed base. RPM has a *much* larger installed base than apt, so having everyone switch or co-host apt is more work than anyone wants to do when you can just choose the most widespread packaging system and make it the standard.
Re:APT isn't distro of packaging system specific by Nailer · 2001-09-19 10:30 · Score: 2

RPM has a *much* larger installed base than apt

You didn't get the point. APT is not a packaging system. Never was, never will be. It sits on top of packaging systems, including DEB or RPM. There are already 2 RPM based distributions with APT support.

No bloat? by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 19:10 · Score: 0

WindowMaker: 2+ Megs in memory
PWM: 530K

And pwm is better.

Re:Sick of Big Downloads? Switch to Linux... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 19:14 · Score: 0

External modems have cache that they can get immediately. Internal modems rely on the PC cache and can't make the most of the connection.

not touching it by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 19:30 · Score: 0

Sorry KDE krew :( I've found KDE less stable than explorer.exe, I don't want to use it

Re:not touching it by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 08:01 · Score: 0

God forbid new versions and more work might have made it better or anything. I'm sick of the "try it when it's new, if it doesn't perform like I want NEVER EVER TRY IT AGAIN@!!!". Like these dweebs that tried Opera in the 1.x stages and still think the newest version is just like it. Pull your heads out of your asses please.

RPMs for Redhat available. by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 19:37 · Score: 1, Informative

RPMS for Redhat are available at:
ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/rawhide/

Cygwin is awesome by Vicegrip · 2001-09-18 19:40 · Score: 1

sshd is totally rock solid on our win2000 box running on cygwin. The setup was fairly simple once I found a nice faq. For sshd alone cygwin should be a standard on most w2k boxes. All the power of the bash shell is what makes it insane not to put it on.

--
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Re:Cygwin is awesome by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 00:36 · Score: 0

For sshd alone cygwin should be a standard on most w2k boxes. All the power of the bash shell is what makes it insane not to put it on.

Shhhh. We wouldn't want MS's secret (that the *nix way really is better) to become known to the public. Or would we?

I can't believe there was a time I used only Windows and was satisfied by it. I'm so much more content in linux.

Re:Sick of Big Downloads? Switch to Linux... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 19:45 · Score: 0

Misinformative .. USR never made a K56Flex (they invented the rival x2 standard), and most x2 modems were upgradable to v90.

They do make both WinModems and hardware modems.

(And back when I used a modem, I always got slightly faster downloads when I forced my USR external into x2 mode instead of v90. Could have been my ISP tho.)

Re:KDE 2.2.x isn't available for Potato (Debian2.2 by reverius · 2001-09-18 20:29 · Score: 2

Hmm... you're right. :)

I am running Potato, and the KDE off of kde.debian.net... and I assumed it was the latest one ('cause it says 2.x on their web page).

I never bothered to check what version I had (I don't actually run it; I just use kword and konqueror).

Additional mirror NL by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-18 20:40 · Score: 0

An additional mirror in the Netherlands is:

ftp://ftp.nl.uu.net/pub/kde

Well done, TurboLinux, KDE. by Karma+Sucks · 2001-09-18 21:35 · Score: 3, Informative

"In response to customer demand, we have made KDE the default desktop environment in the latest release of our Turbolinux Workstation product," said Dino Brusco, VP of Marketing at Turbolinux Inc. "Our customers really appreciate the features and stability that KDE provides and we will be offering this latest version of KDE in an upcoming release of our Turbolinux Server product."

(from: http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-2.2.1.ht ml)

Well, this just just goes to show that all that hard work from the KDE camp has paid off, despite poor advertising and marketing when compared to the competition. Good job all around!

--
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)

GCC 3.0? by moZer · 2001-09-18 21:55 · Score: 1

Does this release compile with gcc 3.0.x? And what about the RH/MDK 2.96 line?

--
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Re:GCC 3.0? by bero-rh · 2001-09-19 02:56 · Score: 2

It doesn't compile with 3.0.x because 3.0.x is broken (doesn't handle virtual inheritance correctly, making it unusable for any bigger chunk of C++ code).

Works perfectly with 2.96.

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Re:GCC 3.0? by bero-rh · 2001-09-19 02:59 · Score: 2

Correction: It actually compiles with 3.0.x, but the resulting binaries don't work because of the compiler bug I mentioned.

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Who needs Gnome and why? by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 00:22 · Score: 0

Now that I got your attention, I'll rephrase the question:

Why is it important to have two such projects when both are Open Source and under the GPL?

I can understand that with proprietary software it's good to have competition, but why is this still true for software, where there's no danger in lock-ins etc.?

cu
Lars

Re:Who needs Gnome and why? by spauldo · 2001-09-19 13:10 · Score: 1

I love KDE. I'd rather saw my arm off than use it though.

I'm a gnomer, have been since it started. I've tried KDE on and off, and I just don't like it. Don't get me wrong - the quality is great, the apps are solid, it's not (as) ugly anymore, but it's just not the desktop environment for me. But it gets peoples' attention, and a lot of newer users seem to like it better than gnome.

The way I look at it, people who like gnome (and develop for gnome) have something in common with me that KDE developers don't. We're more likely to see eye to eye on design choices than I would with the KDE folks. So statisticly, gnome is more likely to become more pleasant to me than KDE is. There's nothing wrong with KDE, they just don't write software I want to use. But then again I'm freakin' weird anyway.

Gnome and KDE aren't the same at all. How would you like it if KDE gave up and told everyone to use gnome? Probably about as well as I'd like to use KDE. Choice kicks ass.

--
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.

Yep bloody 47 pkg files by DABANSHEE · 2001-09-19 00:37 · Score: 1

Well 47 i586 RPMs for Man8.

Really they should have a 48th RPM that has the whole lot in one pkg, so if you want to download/instal the whole lot, you can just download the one file.

incoming.debian.org [was Re:You're right, unfortun by int0x80 · 2001-09-19 00:44 · Score: 1

Also, if Sid doesn't have it then http://incoming.debian.org/ has it! I just read about it in another post.

Although perhaps you have to be careful with those packages, right?

--
Order is for idiots, geniuses can handle chaos!

Pot, meet kettle. by generic-man · 2001-09-19 00:50 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Hope you guys fixed all the bugs I reported!

I was about to ask the same thing to the Slashcode folks.

(Hint: saying "that's the way we meant it to be" doesn't justify a bug.)

--
For more information, click here.

Debian Cultists. by saintlupus · 2001-09-19 01:16 · Score: 2

Granted, this mention was fairly benign - but am I the only one who finds the Debian elitism around here just a little bit annoying?

I'm with you... I actually tried out Debian on an old machine because of the huge support it seems to have here. I don't know, I guess if you insist on running Linux, apt is a nice tool. But I still prefer the pkgsrc/ports collection for ease of use and graspability for newbies like myself.

But hey, what do I know.

(Incidentally, a good friend of mine who has been running Linux since before the 1.0 kernel is using Mandrake now. I wonder if the "gotta be l33t" posturing goes away after a few years?)

--saint

ouch! by dorker · 2001-09-19 02:02 · Score: 0

I'm reading all these threads about incompatibility and recompiling and it just reinforces the fact the Linux is no where near ready for the desktop. Sorry.

Re:Same here...BUT by symbolic · 2001-09-19 02:18 · Score: 1

I was determined. What I did (which is rather rediculous when you think about it) is order Redhat 7.1, tar and copy all of my important stuff to another machine, completely wipe the hard drive, and install RH 7.1. I never thought it would get to this point, but after going through the same rpm dependency mess, RPM began imposing circular requirements - that is, GLIBC version such and such would need to be installed or a particular package, and the package itself required this version of GLIBC to be installed. Fun.

Even after installing the new version of RedHat, I still had to upgrade a few packages- but luckily, this was minor compared to what was happening before.

I have come to believe that this is a serious problem for Linux (at least RedHat)- every version of practically every app or library is so tightly coupled to specific versions of other apps or libraries. I can see average users pulling their hair out because all they want to do is get their work done, and sys admins dreading the day they have to install an upgrade on the machines in an entire department.

shared lib technique ALREADY used by KDE by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 03:02 · Score: 0

This shared library for the GUI application idea was already implemented years ago by the KDE team.
The deamon is called kdeinit. The downside is that all apps in "top" or "ps" show up as "kdeinit".

No. GCC 3.0.x still has a few MI vtable bugs by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 03:05 · Score: 0

perhaps they'll fix it in the next release.

Mtools lets yo do this by kevryn · 2001-09-19 03:06 · Score: 1

From the mtools man page:

Mtools is a public domain collection of tools to allow Unix systems to manipulate MS-DOS files: read, write, and move around files on an MS-DOS filesystem (typically a floppy disk). Where reasonable, each program attempts to emulate the MS-DOS equivalent command. However, unnecessary restrictions and oddities of DOS are not emulated. For instance, it is possible to move subdirectories from one subdirectory to another. Mtools is sufficient to give access to MS-DOS filesystems. For instance, commands such as mdir a: work on the a: floppy without any preliminary mounting or initialization (assuming the default /etc/mtools.conf works on your machine). With mtools, one can change floppies too without unmounting and mounting. (emphasis mine)

Not a complete solution, but it should help.

Not a single GNOME better than KDE flame! by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 03:08 · Score: 0

I guess KDE's quality really swayed public opinion.

Release early, release often .. by Macka · 2001-09-19 03:15 · Score: 1

.. now where have I heard that from .. ;->

Macka

Only Red Hat by ChrisWong · 2001-09-19 03:17 · Score: 2, Interesting

The problem is only with Red Hat, because they have decided not to provide KDE RPMs to upgrade their released distributions. Those RPMs you see for Red Hat are for their beta. You are expected to upgrade to the still-in-beta Red Hat 7.2 to get the latest KDE.

WM != Desktop Environment by Watts · 2001-09-19 03:18 · Score: 1

Yes, WindowMaker is a nice window manager. KDE is a desktop environment that contains its own window manager and a great deal of apps. You can easily use the apps without using kwm, which is a small portion of the KDE project.

Unless you're advocating the use of apps from the GNUStep project (which, last I checked, WindowMaker is not officially part of), which are pretty much nonexistent with the exception of a few ports from NeXT.

Because competition and choise are good. by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 03:37 · Score: 0

Without GNOME, KDE would never have reached the point they are now. Without KDE, GNOME would never have got so far.
Both projects keep eachother running.
And it gives users choise. People who don't like the one can use the other.

Troll response: who needs Gnome AND KDE ? by maroberts · 2001-09-19 03:39 · Score: 1

Whilst I'm a KDE fan, I'm the first to admit that it does not hold all the answers to desktop design.

Competing products are ALWAYS necessary, open source or no open source, to ensure that the dominant product stays sharp. Open source has the advantage that if the Gnome guys do come up with some good ideas, observant KDE developers can insert it into KDE and vice versa.

--

Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon

You're turning the facts... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 03:39 · Score: 0

Well of course nobody says "GNOME rules KDE sucks". The entire GNOME vs KDE war doesn't even exists!
It's all made up by anti-social trolls who WANT a war.

And there are still way more anti-GNOME trolls than anti-KDE trolls, because those people so desperately want to believe that there's a war.

KDE != fast by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 03:54 · Score: 0

Both KDE and GNOME are RAM hogs and are slower then windows. Ever try running it on a 233 w 64 MB RAM? Win95/98/NT4 all run fine on that system, kde/gnome grind to a halt.

I know you're just a Troll by matty · 2001-09-19 04:39 · Score: 2

...but I'm going to respond intelligently anyway, just so anyone who reads this is completely clear.

Anyone who uses a packaged, shrink-wrapped version of Linux which uses KDE as it's default desktop and who waits for officially supported KDE 2.2.1 packages isn't going to have any problems. When a reasonably large, fairly established company like Mandrake or TurboLinux puts their name on it, shrink-wraps it and charges you money, you can be sure they've done a fair bit of testing.

The people above who are having problems are mixing and matching compilers and libraries and are using unofficial packages. The cool thing about this is: LINUX ALLOWS YOU TO DO THAT!! It's called freedom, something Windows (or Mac or most other closed, proprietary OS's) gives you very little of.

Even non-commercial version of Linux like Debian will work smoothly, they just happen to be about 6 months behind the the other distributions since they are all volunteers and there's no profit motive to get a release out the door right away after new software is released. Of course, many people are running the 'testing' version of Debian with KDE 2.2.1 just fine, but I don't recommend that if you're worried about 'incompatibility' and don't want to get your hands dirty.

I run Debian Potato (stable) and KDE 2.1.2 and am quite happy with it. I'm content to wait until the next version is ready with KDE 2.2.1.

Hope that helped clear things up for you! :)

Re:incoming.debian.org [was Re:You're right, unfor by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 05:17 · Score: 0

"Also, if Sid doesn't have it then http://incoming.debian.org/ [debian.org] has it! I just read about it in another post.
Although perhaps you have to be careful with those packages, right?"

Just slightly ;-). Sid had a problem with PAM a while back which locked everyone out of their installations (*no* account could login) - you had to mount the sid install onto another system and fix it from there. Bad News for folks w/o dual-boot Linux systems.

So, compile it on windows. by Penguinoflight · 2001-09-19 05:29 · Score: 1

I'm sure you will find that it is much more painstaking... While your at it try to find a free firewall for windows. Or a free up to date compiler. Good luck ;-)

Btw, desktop users aren't supposed to have to compile things. They don't have to upgrade to the new version of the gui, just like they don't upgrade to a different IE on windows.

--
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14

another reason to use Konqueror by linuxlover · 2001-09-19 05:41 · Score: 1

Anti-Aliased fonts!

Even Slashdot is easy on my eyes with AA fonts!

'nuff said.

LinuxLover

Re:KDE 2.2.x isn't available for Potato (Debian2.2 by matty · 2001-09-19 05:46 · Score: 2

I never bothered to check what version I had...

Yeah, and that's the point for me: I just don't see any reason to go to Woody. I use Mozilla0.9.4 as my browser, and I can't think of anything that 2.2.1 has that 2.1.x doesn't, at least that I want or need.

How wonderful that Linux has gotten to the point that I can be 6 months (or more) behind the times and not even care. :)

Maildir support will be in KMail for KDE3 by boarderboy · 2001-09-19 06:28 · Score: 1

Maildir support was added to cvs right after KDE2.2.0 was released. It will be in the next version of kmail.

How many distro's now ship KDE as default? by GeekBoy · 2001-09-19 08:18 · Score: 1

Just curious, does anyone know which distro's still ship GNOME as the default desktop? I know of RH and progeny, but are there any others? (This is not a flame, I'm just curious as to the growth of KDE in general mindshare).

Sheldon.

No Biggie by signingis · 2001-09-19 08:27 · Score: 1

Simple Solutions

Koffice will open MS Office files.

StarOffice will open AND save MS Office files

--

I prefer a void in conversation to a vacuous one.

Re:KDE 2.2.x isn't available for Potato (Debian2.2 by jonathan_ingram · 2001-09-19 08:33 · Score: 1

There are a couple of nice things about 2.2 over 2.1 ... mainly in the use of Konqueror as a file manager rather than a browser:

They've really improved the thumbnail previews, and the detailed list now uses the Nautilus way -- rather than the background being one colour, it interleaves horizontal bars of two colours to make it much easier to read across.

The file open and file save dialogs have been improved as well.

There's a new addons package which adds several tools to Konqueror, like the ability to filter the files you display, and the ability to turn Java/Javascript/cookies on and off from the toolbar.

The killer though is the new printing support. It finally makes printing from Linux satisfying and easy, particularly when you're using CUPS.

--
-- Help Digitise the Public Domain at DP.

debian by xjeff · 2001-09-19 11:01 · Score: 1

Everyone knows real men use Slackware and compile stuff for themselves. ;)

Re:debian by hyperstation · 2001-09-19 11:51 · Score: 1

goddamn right! amen, brother.
Re:debian by crimsun · 2001-09-19 12:57 · Score: 1

apt-get -b source foo
:)

Re:Same here...BUT by damiam · 2001-09-19 13:19 · Score: 1

Circular dependencies aren't that bad. I've never used RH, but under apt, you just have to tell it to upgrade both at the same time.

--
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Re:the mods are gay by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-19 17:19 · Score: 0

Mod this down to prove...

They don't have to mod it down, Einstein, you already post at -1.

What a moron.

How does it compare by Cro+Magnon · 2001-09-20 09:47 · Score: 1

To KDE 2.1? I like KDE 2.1 but it's slow on my K6 450 with 64M RAM. Is 2.2 faster or even slower?

--
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.

Why can't i get it work? by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-20 10:12 · Score: 0

I consider myself a patient man.. i really do. I've been spending endless hours here at work trying to install a new KDE (because it rocks). I'm using Redhat 6.2 and i'd like to keep my OS the same here (I've got debian at home and it was a snap to get KDE fully functional there). Why don't i see a 6.2 rpm release? have the people behind KDE given up on this great distro? Anyways, I made the stupid mistake of upgrading my gcc to 3.0 and now KDE won't even compile properly - I'm in KDE hell i tell you! Someone please tell me how to unupgrade from gcc 3.0 or even better, tell me where i can find RH6.2 rpms. pleeeeease! thank you, and may you be treated nicely for the rest of your life.

Congratulations! by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-20 10:15 · Score: 0

You engaged your brain and actually spent some time thinking about a reply. It was (somewhat) creative and the spelling and grammar were even correct!

Well, my work is done here.

Ciao!

trading link time for run time? by Nick+Mitchell · 2001-09-20 11:52 · Score: 1

Ok, I'm sure nobody's gonna read this, ehhe, but doesn't this trick trade reduced load time for increased run time?

If I got it correctly, it replaces one indirect function call (to the shared library) with two calls: one direct call (or possibly indirect, if the stub is "far away"), and one indirect call (to the shared library?

the pages you referenced had experiments which showed reductions in link time, but I couldn't find any experiments on how it affects run time.

nick

336 comments