Scourge: The Once and Future Threat of Smallpox

Stella Daily writes: "Had Jonathan Tucker's Scourge: The Once and Future Threat of Smallpox been released just a few months ago, it might have been of interest only to a few outside of the world of epidemiology, but now that anthrax scares have reawakened public interest in biowarfare, it's hardly surprising that Scourge has been flying off the shelves." Read on for the rest of her review of this sobering non-fiction technothriller. Scourge: The Once and Future Threat of Smallpox author Jonathan B. Tucker pages 291 publisher Atlantic Monthly Press rating 9 reviewer Stella Daily ISBN 0-87113-830-1 summary The history and potential horrors of a vanquished killer

Tucker clearly wrote the book believing that the use of smallpox as a biological weapon was a worrisome, but not especially likely, threat, and on September 10th, most of us would not only have concurred, but would probably never have thought that such a thing could happen; after all, smallpox remains the only infectious disease to have been eradicated by humans. After reading Scourge, you will be grateful that the mysterious sender of anthrax-laced mail doesn't have the power of this infinitely worse pestilence in his or her hands.

The smallpox virus, or variola, is a biscuit-shaped bundle of DNA and protein casing, so tiny it can only be viewed with an electron microscope, yet devastating to the human body. The disease kills up to thirty percent of its victims and leaves the rest permanently scarred after battling fever, nausea, and boils so painful that thirsty patients often refused water, unable to swallow without excruciating hurt. Perhaps to be merciful, Tucker has included no photographs of suffering victims covered in the gruesome pustules of the disease, but should you have a morbid curiosity to see one, visit the Polio Eradication Photo Gallery.

Scourge is not a story about a virus, however; it is a story about people. Tucker tells of the history of smallpox and civilizations, how political machinations combined with idealism to bring about the global cooperation that removed smallpox from the earth, and the elaborate subterfuge used by the Soviet Union to hide its research on smallpox as a potential biological weapon. Fans of Laurie Garrett's (The Coming Plague, Betrayal of Trust) journalistic style will appreciate Tucker's treatment; the major figures in the history of smallpox are presented in terms of their personalities and personal struggles, rather than in simple obituary-style listings of what they did.

In describing the early history of the disease, Scourge is fascinating. You may have known that smallpox helped Hernando Cortes conquer the Aztecs in the sixteenth century, but perhaps you didn't know that smallpox may have been the Athenian epidemic Thucydides describes in his account of the Peloponnesian war. The superstitions that existed prior to the germ theory of disease - and, in some areas, long enough to hinder the last stages of the smallpox eradication campaign in the late 1970s - seem truly impossible now, but such was belief prior to the germ theory of disease.

The conquering of smallpox remains one of the great triumphs of mankind - the only infectious disease successfully eradicated by humans. The history of the eradication campaign is one of cooperation between nations and between scientists, but it is also a story of obstacles placed in the way by reluctant governments, the rapid spread of disease due to world travel, and the stubbornness of the superstitious. Here, you will meet such figures as D.A. Henderson, the reluctant leader of the World Health Organization campaign, and Viktor Zhdanov, the man who first proposed a global eradication campaign to the WHO in 1958, then, ironically, became the first chairman of the Soviet council that oversaw the secret biowarfare program beginning in the 1970s.

The clash between the traditional openness of the scientific community, where information is shared relatively freely, and the secretiveness of bureaucracies, where being in the know is a mark of power, is a recurring theme. Often, you'll find yourself rooting for the researchers, who frequently had to reason with government officials who knew nothing about science, but you may be surprised to find yourself agreeing with the government - specifically, the Department of Defense - a time or two.

The story of the Soviet Union's successful cover-up of its research into the use of smallpox as a biological weapon is unsettling, to say the least. Do you find the aftermath of a nuclear bomb impressive? Imagine that bomb followed by an ICBM bearing smallpox - a disease that kills nearly a third of its victims in a normal situation, but would be attacking survivors of a nuclear attack, whose immune systems would be severely compromised by radiation damage. Lest you think that earlier vaccinations might have helped, the smallpox vaccine is effective for only about ten years before revaccination is required, and the United States had stopped mandatory vaccinations long before the last known case of naturally occurring smallpox was diagnosed in 1978. Such a warhead was one of the foci of the Soviet program, even as facilities were carefully disguised so as to give the appearance of compliance with the Biological Weapons Convention treaty. Western governments did not learn of the full scope of the Soviet effort until 1989, and kept the information classified until former Soviet smallpox research scientist Ken Alibek (ne Kanatjan Alibekov) told the story to the American press in 1998.

Although, officially, the last remaining stores of variola virus are kept in Moscow and at the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, Tucker raises the possibility that other governments - particularly Iraq - may have retained secret stores of smallpox virus, citing enough circumstantial evidence to keep his speculation from being easily discounted. He also brings up the possibility that a government might, to avoid the certain retaliation that would come from launching a smallpox attack, supply the virus to a group like al-Qaeda, then deny responsibility when the terrorists release the disease. Tucker finished documenting these speculations well before the September 11th attacks; now, one hopes they aren't prophetic.

In the case of smallpox, the truth is as morbidly fascinating as any fiction could possibly be, and Tucker tells the story of those who fought to end the scourge and those who would have preserved it as a weapon with equal aplomb, yet from the perspective of a world where smallpox was a piece of history and sophisticated biological attack a back-burner phenomenon. Now that fears of biological warfare are all too real, Scourge is exceptionally relevant - and hopefully not a prediction of what is to come.

You can purchase this book at Fatbrain.

Comments

biowar link-o-rama

[wiredog]

The Specter of Biological Weapons
Scientific American, Dec 1996
http://www.sciam.com/1296issue/1296cole.html

Living Terrors
Living Terrors

by Michael T. OsterholmPh.D., former Minnesota State Epidemiologist, and John Schwartz, a science reporter for The Washington Post.

Lays out scenarios for anthrax and smallpox, some history of biowar, why public health system needs to be restored.

The Johns Hopkins University Center for Civilian Biodefense Studies:

home

Smallpox

CDC reports on smallpox attack scenarios:
The scenario

Aftermath of a Hypothetical Smallpox Disaster

Part Two

CDC

Home

S,mallpox

Picture

Modeling Attacks

Public Health Links:
The Coming Plague: Newly Emerging Diseases in a World Out of Balance

by Laurie Garrett

Covers emerging and re-emerging diseases such as HIV, Ebola, Tuberculosis, Smallpox.

Betrayal of Trust : The Collapse of Global Public Health

by Laurie Garrett, Steven M. Wolinsky

How the public health system, in USA and abroad, was allowed to disintegrate.

And the Band Played On: Politics, People, and the AIDS Epidemic

by Randy Shilts

A chronicle of the first 5 years of the aids epidemic.

Richard Preston (Hot Zone author) on smallpox

And next...

[Orkin]

Chicken soup books will start selling again because people are going to be scared of getting chicken pox.

Sheesh! There's no more of a biological terror threat than there was 15 years ago. People are so paranoid.

Re:And next...

[Orkin]

All of that is true except the $5 part. She could only get $3 back then, because of the recession in her area. How do you know her?

Sheesh. Get a life, moron.

Re:And next...

[ryepup]

There's no more of a biological terror threat than there was 15 years ago.

Very true. The thing is, people get by on the illusion of security, not the reality. No one worries about all the bad things that could happen until they are shoved in your face. You don't think about highway shootings until it happens in your area. The illusion of security is shattered by the reality that humans are horribly fragile and are sometimes wickedly demented creatures. The Sept. 11th massacre shattered that illusion of security for most americans, and now people are getting concerned about the threats that have always existed.

Re:And next...

[overunderunderdone]

Sheesh! There's no more of a biological terror threat than there was 15 years ago. People are so paranoid.

I know at least a few postal workers that would disagree with you.

There is in fact a much greater threat for three reasons:
1) Technological progress. Technology makes everything cheaper and easier, not just the good things but bad things as well. This includes the development and deployment of chemical or biological agents. As technology makes things cheaper and easier they are attainable by smaller groups with less accountability. Weapons that once required the resources of a nation-state to develop will more and more be within the grasp of smaller and smaller organisations. A state will act with some discretion because they are big fixed targets and would face assured destruction (nothing mutual about it unless it's Russia) if they could be connected to such an attack. A smaller more shadowy entity like al Queada can hope to make such a massive attack and yet survive by just disapearing.

2) The fall of the Soviet Union. While the fall of the USSR has decreased the risk of a total nuclear (and chemical and biological) armaggedon it has dramatically increased the threat of biological terror. The Soviet Union/Russia was the number one center of knowledge about and researcher and developer of biological weapons. It has been in a state of profound social and economic upheaval which has led to a loss of accountability and control over that knowledge, research and probably it's products.

3) The end of the Cold War (Obviously related to reason number 2) The cold war was a bad thing but it had some advantages in terms of political and world stability - it tended to polarise the world into two camps and the the leadership of those two camps tended even while they worked against each other to also keep their proxies in line for fear of escallating the conflict out of control. The terrorists of Sept. 11 at that time would have been under the influence if not control of one of the two superpowers, neither of which would have allowed such a massive attack directly on their opponents homeland. The waters are a great deal muddier now, there is less accountability and more divergent and conflicting interests being more aggresively pursued.

Demon in the Freezer

[Exmet Paff Daxx]

The New Yorker's The Demon in the Freezer is mirrored at Cryptome, and is an excellent online read about smallpox; it takes about half an hour. And it is truly disturbing.

If you only read a few parts, read two things:
- the part where Russian scientists warn western observers that "your vaccines won't protect you" against the Soviet's new breed of smallpox.
- the part about insect poxviruses, which turn caterpillars into pure crytstallized virus.

Blech. I hope we have the courage as a nation to go ahead and make the vaccine, in mass quantities, the same way it used to be made. The main objection raised in the article is that "by today's standards" cow puss is an unacceptable vaccine. Hopefully "today's standards" are that life without a vaccine is unacceptable. But that's just my opinion.

Re:Demon in the Freezer

[hoggoth]

> Demon in the Freezer
Excellent read! Terrifying stuff.

The article talks a lot about delivery mechanisms, from ICBMS that explode smallpox in the air, to microchip based aerators that spray live smallpox into the air and could fill an airport in a few hours.

But based on our recent experiences with suicide terrorists, has anyone thought about the simplest method of hiding, importing, and distributing the virus?

A suicide terrorist could EAT the virus, and go on vacation in the US, visiting as many places as possible, breathing on as many people as possible.
F*** this is scary! All he would have to do is visit a McDonalds in every big city!
He would have two weeks before he shows symptoms.

I almost hate even SAYING this, spreading the idea. But I'm sure they can think of it on their own.

Re:Demon in the Freezer

[GSloop]

Smallpox is only transmittable when you show symptoms. Thus, during the 2 week+ incubation period, your virus is not transmissible.

That would only give a fairly small window where you could transmit the virus, without having very obvious signs of infection.

That doesn't mean of course, that you couldn't spread it this way, but that it isn't quite as bad as you portray.

Basically, in any type of attack like this, the key is to expose as many people as possible in the first round. (Tom Clancy, as sucky as his latest books are now, covers a somewhat technically realistic Ebola attack - at least in the strategy of a wide initial round.) After the initial round or 2, the health community will rally and fairly quickly beat the thing, provided that the fabric of society doesn't break down first.

Thus, infecting as many people as possible in the first round is the most effective way to maximize the casualty list. The hard part is that there aren't too many diseases that are highly contageous, often fatal, and also transmitable while asymptomatic...nature (or God) may have given us a bit of a leg up here.

Re:Demon in the Freezer

[dohnut]

You couldn't be more wrong - read the article. I quote from the article linked to by the parent:

"I like to think like a virus," Esposito said. "If you can think like a virus, then you can begin to understand why a virus does what it does. A smallpox particle gets into a person's body and, in a way, it's thinking, I'm this one particle sitting here surrounded by an angry immune system. I have to multiply fast. Then I have to get out of this host fast. It escapes into the air before the pustules develop." By the time the host feels sick, the virus has already moved on to its next host. The previous host has become a cast-off husk (and is now becoming saturated with virus), but whether the person lives or dies no longer matters to the virus. However, the dried scabs, when they fall off, contain live virus. The scabs are the virus's seeds. They preserve it for a long time, just in case it hasn't managed to reach a host in the air. The scabs give the virus a second chance

Re:Demon in the Freezer

[GSloop]

Go do some research...

I didn't say pustules, I said _symptoms_.

A person will _feel_ sick before they are transmissible. That doesn't prevent them from spreading it for a short time before the symptoms are more noticeable, but they are going to start feeling pretty bad. Plus the time is short 1-2 days, possibly a bit longer. It's not 2 weeks like the initial claim.

In short, yes there could be some spread this way but not much before more severe symptoms show, and not anything like 2 weeks.

Finally, the breathing of the victim is the most potent source of transmisability. You don't put the dried up pustules in your mouth do you? I'm not an expert, but the additional risk from non airborne sources is quite small!

Re:Demon in the Freezer

[GSloop]

Just some more follow up -

This from the CDC...
=====
If someone comes in contact with smallpox, how long does it take to show symptoms?

The incubation period is about 12 days (range: 7 to 17 days) following exposure. Initial symptoms include high fever, fatigue, and head and back aches. A characteristic rash, most prominent on the face, arms, and legs, follows in 2-3 days. The rash starts with flat red lesions that evolve at the same rate. Lesions become pus-filled after a few days and then begin to crust early in the second week. Scabs develop and then separate and fall off after about 3-4 weeks.
---
How is smallpox spread?

In the majority of cases, smallpox is spread from one person to another by infected saliva droplets that expose a susceptible person having face-to-face contact with the ill person. People with smallpox are most infectious during the first week of illness, because that is when the largest amount of virus is present in saliva. However, some risk of transmission lasts until all scabs have fallen off.

Contaminated clothing or bed linen could also spread the virus. Special precautions need to be taken to ensure that all bedding and clothing of patients are cleaned appropriately with bleach and hot water. Disinfectants such as bleach and quaternary ammonia can be used for cleaning contaminated surfaces.

Now do you believe me? Sheesh - get reliable data from a scientific source, not a drama writer...

Notice that the initial high transmissible period is the first week of illness...not infection.

Re:Demon in the Freezer

[dohnut]

Forget the pustules - what's your definition of symptom? I'd say, "By the time the host feels sick, the virus has already moved on to its next host," qualifies as someone not having any "symptoms." And this is a quote from a person who knows about smallpox. In fact that quote was from (and I quote) "Joseph J. Esposito, Ph.D., who is the chief of the C.D.C.'s Poxvirus Section." This is an expert on smallpox at the CDC, apparently saying something different than what is on the CDC website.

I thought the following was very interesting (though unrelated to our arguement), from the WHO website under "Clinical Features":

Smallpox is a disease which can be easily diagnosed by trained health workers without the need for laboratory support. During the eradication campaign, WHO produced training materials designed to help health staff recognize smallpox, distinguish it from chickenpox, and avoid common diagnostic errors. These materials are now available electronically.

Now, here's a quote from D. A. Henderson:

[Interviewer] "How many doctors could recognize smallpox today?" I asked.

[Henderson] "Virtually none. Smallpox takes forms that even I can't diagnose. And I wrote the textbook." He is a co-author of "Smallpox and Its Eradication," a large book in red covers, which experts call the Big Red Book of Smallpox. It was supposed to be the final word on smallpox-the tombstone of the virus.

Now we have two pretty large discrepancies between what some experts say and the CDC/WHO websites. Maybe the cryptome article is "drama," like you say, or taken totally out of context. Though, personally, I'm inclined to believe there is truth there. But regardless of who's right or wrong, I usually err on the conservative side anyway.

Re:Demon in the Freezer

[overunderunderdone]

A suicide terrorist could EAT the virus, and go on vacation in the US, visiting as many places as possible, breathing on as many people as possible.

This is exactly why I always thought the Anthrax attack is not by al Queada. They like alot of impact against high level targets and they are willing to commit suicide to do it. Anthrax is not detected by things like metal detectors or x-ray machines, it is a powder that could be easily hidden or even appear innocent to a physical search (before everyone got justifiably paranoid about it) A simple visit to the public gallery of the US house of representatives a day or two prior to a Presidential address could have left enough innocent looking but lethal dust floating about in the air to decimate our top political leadership. Of course the person willing to go spread the dust around would infect himself but that seems just the kind of thing that would appeal to these guys. Sending letters with threatening messages (fairly screaming out:"test me for anthrax while it is still treatable") and are going to be opened by junior staffers in any event is for people who aren't willing to die for their cause and aren't even serious about killing their targets.

Re:Demon in the Freezer

[Scytle]

But based on our recent experiences with suicide terrorists, has anyone thought about the simplest method of hiding, importing, and distributing the virus? A suicide terrorist could EAT the virus, and go on vacation in the US, visiting as many places as possible, breathing on as many people as possible.

From a report I've seen, tv documentary no links sorry, that's considered rather unlikely. Physicians considering it said that by the time the person is contagious they're too sick to get around easily and it's readily obvious to anyone looking at them that they are very ill.

Re:Demon in the Freezer

[budgenator]

Actualy there is much worse out there. Bacteria with an ID50(Infective Dose for 50% of the healthy adult population) of one organism, and untreated fatality rates approaching 95%. But the things that scare me the most are predominatly non-fatal, there are things that can happen to you that make dieing seem like a relief. More I won't say.

Possibilities...

[Neon Spiral Injector]

Slightly off topic, the anthrax attacks.

Does anyone else wonder why they just seem to have stopped all of a sudden.

Did the person(s) sending the letters run out of anthrax? Or perhaps was this just a first phase? Just a small scale experiment to see how a controlled release of antrax spreads.

I just wish the whole small pox idea was never brought up. But I guess with this book having been released even before the initial attacks, the thought was on someone's mind. I just feel now every time someone talks about small pox being used in a biological attack it increases the chances of it happening (I guess I'm not helping any).

Re:Possibilities...

[sphealey]

Slightly off topic, the anthrax attacks.

Does anyone else wonder why they just seem to have stopped all of a sudden

Just speculating: he ran out of material, or he killed himself by inhaling his own spores (given that the stuff was poured loose into envelopes.

That whole episode had the mark of a fanatical loner, ala the Unabomber, from the beginning. And the FBI seems to be headed in that direction as well.

sPh

Re:Possibilities...

[mmacdona86]

Likely the assailant is using anti-biotics (quite common ones work) to protect himself, so he hasn't died. He may have run out of material, or he may be awaiting further orders. I don't believe the lone madman stuff, since I can't believe a lone nut would try to implicate someone else in his attacks (the Unabomber certainly didn't).

Re:Possibilities...

[zenyu]

My guess is that s/he was not a terrorist but some crazy who wanted to warn us. Prolly freaked out about the attack and wanted the rest of us to freak out too. The letters to the media told them to take antibiotics. I think he didn't expect it to leak out of the envelopes and kill all those postal workers. So now he feels a mix of guilt and bravado, for the deaths and the 'warning' sent.

I don't have any special insight. It's just the silicone in the Anthrax, the use of a mailorder American strain, the sloppyness of the letters, the targeting.

It all screams American patriot to me.

Re:Possibilities...

[bugg]

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011116/ts/attack s_anthrax_25.html

They haven't stopped. They're probably just not wasting any anthrax; for as long as people are afraid, they're doing their job. People get confident about opening mail again? Send some more..

Smallpox

[spike hay]

Whats really scary is that smallpox is so contagious that a single Al Qaida terrorist could infect himself and walk around in New York. He could potentialy infect thousands of people.

Re:Smallpox

[phamlen]

It should be noted that a person with smallpox is not contagious until the person is showing symptoms. Therefore, a terrorist would have to have boils and rashes in order to be contagious - and therefore more likely to be identified as having smallpox. (In addition, dying in battle is different than dying a slow, agonizing death by smallpox - I think it would be harder to get martyrs to take smallpox.)

In addition, the smallpox vaccine works extremely quickly - you can be vaccinated several days later (after having been exposed) and the vaccine will work. So, although the terrorist walking with smallpox is a threat, it's not the worst.

Finally, smallpox is extremely hard to contain - so a terrorist spreading smallpox in NYC could easily end up infecting his own community (what with worldwide travel so available these days.)

The "typhoid terrorist" scenario is certainly possible, but I think it is unlikely.

Re:Smallpox

[scarhill]

1. Smallpox is only contagious when the victim shows syptoms. False. Read the New Yorker article or this post above.
   
2. Vaccine works quickly. True, but we don't have nearly enough of it, and what we have is thirty years old and of questionable potency.
   
3. Terrorists could infect themselves. Also true. I just hope they care...
   

Re:Smallpox

[bluebomber]

In addition, dying in battle is different than dying a slow, agonizing death by smallpox - I think it would be harder to get martyrs to take smallpox.

True, but if you're going to martyr yourself anyway, you could always put a bullet in your head (or take poison, or have a buddy put the lights out for you, etc) after you've infected a critical mass of victims.

the smallpox vaccine works extremely quickly

Sure, if you want to assume that the smallpox you're vaccinating against is the same smallpox that is causing the outbreak. If the virus has been modified, the vaccine might not work...

Re:Smallpox

[ckokotay]

Um, the New Yorker article is not correct. That is precicisely the problem, too much misinformation from seemingly reliable sources. It is a known fact that the contagious nature of the disease is not rendered until the rash appears. This is why the disease is NOT as contagious as it is made out to be. Much of the past world contracted it due to lack of proper sanitation, not the vaccine.

Thank the US government

[Quasar1999]

You can thank the US government for its biological warfare research in the early 50's to late 60's for giving terrorists so many good ideas...

I can see it now, millions die after infected musquitos unleashed on the US...

BAH!

Re:Thank the US government

[Ledge]

Using that notion, why not thank Orville & Wilbur for the WTC attack?

You can thank the US government for its biological warfare research in the early 50's to late 60's for giving terrorists so many good ideas...

I can see it now, millions die after infected musquitos unleashed on the US...

BAH!

Re:Thank the US government

[linzeal]

Um, hobbyist powered flight versus bio-warfare weapons research. Apples and oranges.

Re:Thank the US government

[rosie_bhjp]

And the US government is unique in the world as being the only country to develop and research biological weapons? I don't think so.
The Soviet program far far far outweighed anything the US government did in that arena.

Re:Thank the US government

[overunderunderdone]

You can thank the US government for its biological warfare research in the early 50's to late 60's for giving terrorists so many good ideas...

While there was no excuse for us to ever be even researching the use of biological weapons (except defensive research) at least we thought better of it and stopped by the late 60's. The Soviets on the other hand never stopped and I'm sure their research was sufficient to give any potential bio-terrorists those ideas. And now their underpaid disgruntled former researchers are the main reason this is such an uncomfortably credible threat.

Re:Thank the US government

[overunderunderdone]

Unless you are one of those people that gets their understanding of the US government from watching the X-Files and going to militia meetings that just isn't true. While I'm sure there are plenty of specifics that are still classified we know pretty well what went on in general and what defensive research is going on now.

Re:Thank the US government

[budgenator]

My manuals have always stated US policy as no use for biological weapons, chemical weapons no first use, only for response in kind, and nuclear only for responding to overwhelming force or response in kind,(like the Soviet's rolling over Europe).

The vast majority of US BW research was defense related, even befor the above policy. What I'm not sure of policy wise is whether a Nuclear response to a Biological attack is permissable. This may be a case where the historic policies are out of sync with todays realities.

The biggest reason Biological weapons are not used is that there is no BW that is militarily useful. These weapons are only appropriate for genocide, not warefare, and invaribly they'll backfire on you. On the other hand a big draw back to invading an other country has always been have your soldiers coming into contact with natural indiginous diseases. In warfare historicaly, 75% of your casualties are due to disease, only about 4-5% are due to enemy direct fire.

Re:Thank the US government

[overunderunderdone]

The vast majority of US BW research was defense related, even befor the above policy.

Research is fine (except that subset which would be only useful for offense), we may not use biological weapons but we have enemies that can and would. What was horrible is that at one time we anticipated using such weapons, and had stockpiles of them for that anticipated use. This is even more abhorant than nuclear weapons precisely because of the reasons you point out - it is only appropriate for genocide and invariably backfires not only on you but on everyone else in the world.

Re:Paranoid hoax

[wiredog]

The only living strains of smallpox

That we know of. Read the New Yorker piece, a couple of us have linked to it. The Russian facilities are not very secure, and the inventory control there is not good.

Fear and Unity

[under_score]

When I read something like this review, I experience twinges of fear. Smallpox sounds like it is truly terrible. And yet, somehow, we, the people of this world, did manage to get rid of it. For the future of the world, we need to recognize that we are one people first, and citizens of a nation second. This doesn't mean we all need to believe the same things, etc. This is about unity in diversity. And unity isn't abstract: its about action. Getting rid of smallpox was an example of unity in diversity. The people of the world got rid of it. Now, can we get rid of AIDS? Can we get rid of Malaria? What about our physical environment? What about nuclear weapons? What about poverty? These are things that can only be solved with unity of action.

Scary stuff

[Tsar]

From another site that mentions Tucker's work...

How vulnerable are we? In June, a two-day simulation exercise called Dark Winter was held at Andrews Air Force Base in Washington, D.C. It began with a fictional scenario depicting a covert smallpox attack by Iraq that left 24 infected in Oklahoma. After an imaginary two weeks, decisions by the assembled politicians coupled with the quick exhaustion of the stockpiled vaccine would have resulted in 16,000 people infected in 25 states and 1,000 dead, 10 other countries reporting cases and the grim prediction that within three weeks there would be 300,000 victims, a third of whom would die.

Very scary stuff. I think I'll sign up for that Mars mission now.

Re:Scary stuff

[AndyGuy]

Although I read somewhere that they assumed each person would infect 10 others, CDC data suggests that an infection rate of 2 is more likely.

Re:Scary stuff

[Maditude]

i wonder how much sympathy the HALF MILLION CHILDREN that died from '91-'98 because of US sanctions (famine, disease) would have for us.

If Saddam in Iraq would start spending the money his country does get from oil on food and medicines for his people, instead of new castles and weapons, there wouldn't be anywhere near the suffering that there currently is, and the sanctions would likely be dropped quickly as well (though that has been tied to them allowing UN inspectors back into the country).

Re:Scary stuff

[fireduck]

The Dark Winter scenario apparently was based on some screwy statistics regarding rates of infection. Steven Milloy of Junkscience fame wrote an editorial on the subject.

Dark Winter assumed every infected person would infect 10 additional people. This was based on a couple of statistically abnormal infection events. A more reasonable infection rate of 2 people is what the CDC believes more likely. This obviously would reduce the catastrophic victims exponentially.

Re:Scary stuff

[YellowBook]

The Dark Winter scenario apparently was based on some screwy statistics regarding rates of infection. Steven Milloy of Junkscience fame wrote an editorial on the subject.

That may or may not be the case, but I certainly wouldn't take Steven Milloy's word for it. Milloy is a conservative ideologue who doesn't seem to actually give a damn about good or bad methodology. If it leads to policy suggestions he doesn't like, then it's Junk Science (TM). There's a good debunking of this hypocrite at The Skeptic's Dictionary.

Re:Scary stuff

[Moofie]

Of course. All the troubles in the world...it's America's fault.

You really think that Saddam would be feeding his people if he had more money? Horse shit.

Re:Scary stuff

[Moofie]

Seems to me like conducting a war game with a "worse than worst possible case scenario" is a pretty fucking good idea. That way, you aren't taken completely unawares when the enemy does something unexpected, like hijacking planes with pocket knives and crashing them into buildings.

Oh. Scratch that last part.

coincidental...

[ravrazor]

There was a episode of Nova about the very same topic last night on our local PBS affiliate. Quite disturbing, especially in regards to the experiments of the Soviet Union even after global treaties had been signed.
The pictures of smallpox victims were even more disturbing.
Check out the schedule, maybe it's on again, for those interested.

Re:coincidental...

[iomud]

NOVA rocks my socks, tons of great educational and interesting programming alan alda also rocks for covering so many interesting things. You can tell he has a genuine interest in what he's doing.

We can only hope...

[sphealey]

That the US government is currently working on a program to vaccinate the entire population against smallpox and anthrax, and that they just aren't talking about it because they can't do it immediately, and talking about a program they can't carry out would only cause panic.

But I doubt it. I am guessing the powers that be are hoping that the biowar threat has "calmed down" and that we are going "back to normal". In this scenario, mass vaccination won't be considered until after the next major outbreak, when it might be too late.

We'll see.

sPh

Re:We can only hope...

[wiredog]

The government is working on stockpiling enough vaccine for the whole population, but they wouldn't vaccinate unless there were an outbreak. The vaccine can have nasty side-effects in some people, including brain damage, blindness, and death. Not many people, 1 in 250k,IIRC, but that would still be over 1,000 people injured by it if everyone were vaccinated. Those numbers, however, date from the days before AIDS, chemotherapy, and other things that suppress the immune system. It's a 'live virus' vaccine. Because of that it's one of the ones that's used when the danger of the vaccine is substantially less than the danger of the disease.

Re:We can only hope...

[Pedersen]

The hope that you have is no hope for me, unfortunately. You see, I've never been given the smallpox vaccine, nor can I be. The allergic reaction would kill me. I have no idea how many other people there are like me in this country and the world, just that I'm one of them.

Something almost amusing, though... Doctors will always ask if you're allergic to any medications, and I always respond "smallpox vaccine", and we both chuckle, because we know that I'm not likely to need it. Now, though... A story like this can cause genuine fear for me.

Re:We can only hope...

[sphealey]

The vaccine can have nasty side-effects in some people, including brain damage, blindness, and death. Not many people, 1 in 250k,IIRC, but that would still be over 1,000 people injured by it if everyone were vaccinated.

I as aware of those numbers and considered referencing them in my original post, but did not in the interest of brevity.

Even the simplest decision tree analysis shows that the benefit from vaccinating far outweighs the potential side-effects.

And yes, I have been vaccinated, and yes, I would be first in line with my 2 children, even knowing the risks.

sPh

Re:We can only hope...

[zaren]

Mmm, an anthrax vaccine... just like the one they gave our soldiers over in the Gulf War?

I've read lots of reports tying that vaccine to the "mysterious" Gulf War Syndrome.

Then there's the fact that the ONE company licensced by the gov't to produce an anthrax vaccine hasn't produced a single usable vaccine in almost two years, because their quality control is so poor it doesn't allow them to brew the same batch twice...

I'd hope their being quiet because they've got something better planned, cause what I've heard so far isn't very promising.

Re:We can only hope...

[sphealey]

You see, I've never been given the smallpox vaccine, nor can I be. The allergic reaction would kill me. I have no idea how many other people there are like me in this country and the world, just that I'm one of them.

Sorry.

However, if the entire population less those not capable of receiving the vaccine were vaccinated, an epidemic wouldn't be able to spread through the population, so you would be much safer as well.

sPh

Re:We can only hope...

[Eimi Metamorphoumai]

Even the simplest decision tree analysis shows that the benefit from vaccinating far outweighs the potential side-effects.

I'm not so sure that's the case. In order to have a good estimate of that, you need at least some probability of smallpox being released into the wild again, and I don't think there's a good way of assessing that. If that threat is zero, then you can do no good by vaccinating, only harm.

Remember that these are also people, and people don't naturally think in terms of math when it comes to human lives. Another poster quoted an expected 300 deaths from vaccination. How many elected officials are going to accept that, and the possibility of the media uproar caused by that, on the chance that they might save a larger number from an almost unimaginable disaster? Particularly since, if the vaccinations are successful, you'll probably never hear much more about it. "Well, yeah, we killed 300 people, but if we hadn't the Evil Ones might have killed a bunch more" just doesn't sound bite well.

I'm also curious whether there are any risks associated with vaccination. Others have mentioned that it's a live virus vaccine, so you're handing out to thousands of people syringes filled with the virus, hopefully rendered harmless. Does anyone know whether those can be weaponized into something harmful again? I have to admit that I don't know much about the technical side, but it seems like a vaccination could be a total PR disaster, even apart from promoting panic, while sitting on one's ass and saying "No, we're perfectly safe" and then being proven wrong, while possibly tragic, just doesn't hurt one's carreer the same way.

Re:We can only hope...

[sphealey]

Mmm, an anthrax vaccine... just like the one they gave our soldiers over in the Gulf War?

I've read lots of reports tying that vaccine to the "mysterious" Gulf War Syndrome.

If necessary, yes. Although there is some indication that the vaccine currently used for cattle may be better than the the one approved for humans (more protection with less side effect).

But given what occured in Washington last month, yes, I would sign up for the current vaccine. A question that would need to be investigated is whether the whole 6-shot course would be needed to protect against casual exposure, now that we know that anthrax does repsond to treatment.

As for Gulf War syndrome, there is no causal link to anthrax. Proximity, sequence: yes. Link, no. And lots of other things were going on in that area at the time, including the bombing of suspected bio/chem warefare dumps.

sPh

Re:We can only hope...

[wiredog]

Go to google and look up "Jenner" and "Cowpox". The vaccine uses the vaccinia virus (thus "vaccine") which cross-reacts with variola (the smallpox virus).

Re:We can only hope...

[TheSync]

The government is working on stockpiling enough vaccine for the whole population

My main concern is that there isn't a weaponized smallpox virus that has been bred to not respond to existing vaccines. In which case, existing vaccine products would be useless.

Re:We can only hope...

[b1t r0t]

While that Nova or whatever show was on the other night, I dug out my old vaccination records, having found them a few months ago. It seems that I was given my four or five shots for smallpox over the period of a year or so, and the last one (in 1969) was stamped "Equivocal Reaction". No indications of what kind of reaction, but I have allergies to penicillin and aspirin, so maybe it was an allergic reaction.

Re:We can only hope...

[budgenator]

Actualy when you move that many people to an alien enviroment, some are going to catch some vague, chronic infection, and the cause isn't going to be detected.

They were also given a drug that is in they same family as nerve gas, physiostygine I think, along with the attidote at the same time,(atropine). Plus Oil well fires, local parasites ect. to many variables to determine a cause.

Also I thought the main problem at the vaccine lab relate to them being bought out and the new owners don't realy know what to do with them. They aren't getting funded and don't have a renewed permit to transport the vaccine that they have stored on site. The workers at the lab don't have a problem taking the vaccine, and they take it a lot more frequently than the general public would

This is review is lost..

[Krapangor]

...to the /. crowd.
We are really only interested in the threat by the demented crapflooder virus.

Re:Lets hope this is just speculation.

[Orkin]

I couldn't possibly agree with you more with the perspective on the evolution of life on the planet. Humans have had (by far) the worst impact on the ecosystem of the planet. I sometimes wonder if it is unfortunate that humans are so resillient. I believe that this is a temporary phase in our development as a species, and, in a few thousand years, we'll probably be over it.

Smallpox and Anthrax (and any other biological threat) are just developmental instigators, promoting alteration of perspective on the planet as a whole, and our lives in particular. Hopefully these recent "threats", rather than being forever looked at as a tragedy (like the response to polio, the Black Death, and concentration camps during WW2), will spur a new era of enlightened insight into our role in the community of life on this planet.

Re:Paranoid hoax

[easter1916]

I suggest you read "Biohazard" by Ken Alibek, the former second-in-command of the the Soviet Union's bioweaponry programme. He would beg to differ.

George Carlin (Offtopic)

[scott1853]

I know this is slightly offtopic, but I downloaded a Carlin MP3 from an HBO show from 1999 that I never saw or heard before. The first ten minutes he talked about terrorists and how they're not going to be stupid enough to use a bomb, but they'll take knives and dozens of other weapons that the airlines would let you take on board. He then went into talking about how we'd all be afraid of anthrax in our drinking water.

I know it's just comedy, but he's a smart guy and that was just a little creepy hearing about this stuff from a 2 year old recording.

Re:George Carlin (Offtopic)

[Orkin]

George Carlin - isn't he that guy hiding in a cave in Afghanistan leading a terrorist network?

Re:George Carlin (Offtopic)

[libre lover]

It's from the Carlin special You Are All Diseased. When I first saw you're post I went looking for my tape of it (I was going to transcribe it) but then I caught some sense and remembered Google. Here it is:

I'm getting tired of security at the airport, There's too much of it. I'm tired of some fat chick with a double-digit IQ and a triple-digit income rootin' around inside my bag for no reason and never finding anything. Haven't found anything yet. Haven't found one bomb in one bag. And don't tell me, "Well, the terrorists know their bags are going to be searched, so now they're leaving their bombs at home." There are no bombs! The whole thing is fuckin' pointless'

And it's completely without logic. There's no logic at all. They'll take away a gun but let you keep a knife. Well, what the fuck is that? In fact, there's a whole list of lethal objects they allow you to take on board. Theoretically, you could take a knife, an ice pick, a hatchet, a straight razor, a pair of scissors, a chain saw, six knitting needles and a broken whiskey bottle, and the only thing they would say to you is, "That bag has to fit all the way under the seat in front of you."

And if you didn't take a weapon on board, relax. After you've been flying for about an hour, they're gonna bring you a knife and fork! They actually give you a fucking knife. It's only a table knife, but you could kill a pilot with a table knife. It might take a couple of minutes.

Especially if he's hefty. But you could get the job done. If you really wanted to kill the prick. Shit, there are a lot of things you could use to kill a guy. You could probably beat a guy to death with the Sunday New York Times, couldn't you? Suppose you just have really big hands. Couldn't you strangle a flight attendant? Shit, you could probably strangle two of them, one with each hand. That is, if you were lucky enough to catch 'em in that little kitchen area. Just before they break out the fuckin' peanuts. But you could get the job done. If you really cared enough.

So why is it they allow a man with big, powerful hands to get on board an airplane? I'll tell you why. They know he's not a security risk, because he's already answered the three big questions. Question number one: "Did you pack your bags yourself?"

"No, Carrot Top packed my bags. He and Martha Stewart and Florence Henderson came over to the house last night, fixed me a lovely lobster Newburg, gave me a full body massage with sacred oils from India, performed a four-way around-the-world and then packed my bags. Next question." "Have your bags been in your possession the whole time?"

"No. Usually the night before I travel-just as the moon is rising-I place my suitcases out on the street corner and leave them there, unattended, for several hours. Just for good luck. Next question."

"Has any unknown person asked you to take anything on board?"

"Well, what exactly is an 'unknown person'? Surely everyone is known to someone. In fact, just this morning, Kareem and Youssef Ali ben Gabba seemed to know each other quite well. They kept joking about which one of my suitcases was the heaviest."

And that's another thing they don't like at the airport. Jokes. You can't joke about a bomb. Well, why is it just jokes? What about a riddle? How about a limerick? How about a bomb anecdote? You know, no punch line, just a really cute story. Or suppose you intended the remark not as a joke but as an ironic musing? Are they prepared to make that distinction? I think not! And besides, who's to say what's funny?

Airport security is a stupid idea. It's a waste of money and it's there for only one reason: to make white people feel safe. That's all it's for. To provide a feeling, an illusion, of safety in order to placate the middle class. The authorities know they can't make airplanes safe; too many people have access. You'll notice that drug smugglers don't seem to have a lot of trouble getting their little packages on board, do they? No. And God bless them, too.

And by the way, an airplane flight shouldn't be completely safe. You need a little danger in your fife. Take a fuckin' chance, will ya? What are you gonna do, play with your prick for another 30 years? Are you gonna read People and eat at Wendy's till the end of time? Take a fuckin' chance! Besides, even if they made all of the airplanes completely safe, the terrorists would simply start bombing other places that are crowded: pawnshops, crack houses, titty bars and gang bangs. You know, entertainment venues. The odds of your being killed by a terrorist are practically zero. So I say, relax and enjoy the show.

You have to be realistic about terrorism. Ya gotta be a realist: Certain groups of people--Muslim fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, and just plain guys from Montana--are going to continue to make life in this country very interesting for a long, long time. That's the reality. Angry men in combat fatigues talking to God on a two-way radio and muttering incoherent slogans about freedom are eventually going to provide us with a great deal of entertainment.

Especially after your stupid fuckin' economy collapses all around you, and the terrorists come out of the woodwork. And you'll have anthrax in the water supply and sarin gas in the air conditioners; there'll be chemical and biological suitcase bombs in every city, and I say, "Relax, enjoy it! Enjoy the show! Take a fuckin' chance. Put a little fun in your life." To me, terrorism is exciting. I think the very idea that someone might set off a bomb in Macy's and kill several hundred people is exciting and stimulating, and I see it as a form of entertainment!

But I also know most Americans are soft, frightened, unimaginative people who have no idea there's such a thing as dangerous fun. And they certainly don't recognize good entertainment when they see it. I have always been willing to put myself at great personal risk for the sake of entertainment. And I've always been willing to put you at great personal risk for the same reason.

As far as I'm concerned, all of this airport security--the cameras, the questions, the screening, the searches--is just one more way of reducing your liberty and reminding you that they can fuck with you any time they want, as long as you're willing to put up with it. Which means, of course, any time they want. Because that's the way Americans are now. They're always willing to trade away a little of their freedom for the feeling, the illusion--of security.

Re:Paranoid hoax

[sphealey]

There is NO threat of smallpox being released into the public. By 1979, the WHO completely wiped-out smallpox in the wild. The only living strains of smallpox in existance are located a highly secured CDC laboratory, and in a lab in Russia.

Very reassuring. Perhaps you could help me understand why the US Gov't is shoveling 10's of millions of dollars into Russia (which should probably have been hundreds of millions) to help pay for cleaning up old Soviet biowarefare laboratories? And why ex-Soviet biologists have admitted that they used smallpox as a base for some of their research?

Probably part of the faked moon landing.

sPh

Really?

[jabbo]

I guess we didn't bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, and Sudan in the last 15 years. Nor did $300M of Saudi inheritance and an organization devoted to the destruction of the USA (and by proxy, our Western allies) spring up. Right?

The huge difference between an entity like the Soviet Union and a network like Al Qaeda is that, while the USSR was highly prepared and enamored of the will to power, the people holding the reins were not particularly interested in dying as a means of killing others. So while the cynical machinations of the Soviet power elite produced the finest weaponization programs for biowarfare yet seen, they were only intended for use as mop-up agents after a nuclear attack.

The Islamic fundies (not particularly worse than Christian fundies or ultranationalist Israelis, just more prominent) that have taken center stage lately are perfectly willing to die for their cause, as long as they can kill a few unarmed women and children while they're at it. What better for the slaughter of innocents than an epidemic? It worked for Genghis Khan (cf. catapulting plague-ridden corpses into sieged cities). These are not conventional enemies and they are not limiting themselves to conventional warfare. Moreover, a network of semi-autonomous individuals without a distinct nationality, i.e., nothing to lose, is a much more elusive target than a static nation-state like Iraq, Libya, or Afghanistan. So the consequences of being "caught" are also different.

That, in conjunction with the underfunding and collapse of the public health systems around the world, is why I submit that a response to biowarfare is more crucial now than 15 years ago.

And the rebuilding of a worldwide public health infrastructure would be a damn nice side effect of this new urgency, IMHO.

Re:Really?

[bpowell423]

Please don't equate fundamental Islam with fundamental Christianity. Christian fundamentalists believe in the fundamentals of Christianity, and Islamic fundamentalists believe in the fundamentals of Islam, but that in no way makes them equal. For instance, Christians are compelled to witness to others, but the choice to follow Christ is left to the unbeliever. Muslims are compelled to witness, too, and kill the unbeliever if they don't convert. Obviously, there are a great many other differences. Equating fundamental Christians to fundamental Muslims only shows your ignorance of the issue.

Also, and this has nothing to do with your post, it really bothers me when people, who by their actions show that they know nothing of what it is to be a Christian, do terrible things "in the name of God" or somesuch. For instance, people who bomb abortion clinics. There is no way that they can claim any Biblical basis for their actions. The Christian community as a whole does not support their actions, and yet it reflects on us like "see what those fundamentalist Christians do". As a Christian, I am appalled by abortion, but I am just as appalled by killing abortion doctors. Anyway, that was completely off topic, but I hope it makes my point.

Anyway, other than the unnecessary and ignorant slam of Christians, I agreed with your post.
God bless you. (see Romans 12:14 sometime.)

Re:Really?

[mangu]

while the USSR was highly prepared and enamored of the will to power, the people holding the reins were not particularly interested in dying as a means of killing others.

Neither are the islamic terrorist leaders interested in dying. They use proxies for that.

But it's exactly the fact that they are not nation-states which makes terrorists less dangerous, although difficult to eliminate. They don't have the expertise and resources that the late Soviet Union had. It's possible, but not very probable, that al Qaeda has smallpox viruses in their arsenal. But a nation like the US or Russia certainly could obtain such viruses. There must be someone who died from smallpox buried somewhere in conditions that keep the virus intact, for instance, in permanently frozen soil.

And how would terrorists deliver the virus? A massive attack, with thousands of ICBMs carrying biological warheads might succeed in infecting a substantial percentage of a nation. Anything less could kill thousands, but not millions of people. Before an epidemic could spread, there would be massive efforts at vaccination and other containment measures. If they could ground all civilian aircraft in the USA for several days after a terrorist attack, the government could also implement effective means of disease control.

And it might surprise you, but the public health system around the world has not "collapsed" in the last 15 years. It's exactly the opposite, without the cold war to deflect public funds to the military, spending in health infrastructure has increased in most countries.

Re:Really?

[Daniel Dvorkin]

And people who fly airliners into skyscrapers cannot claim any basis in the Koran for their actions ... except they do. The reason people equate fundamentalists of different religions is because, regardless of the tenets of their religion (and the Koran, like the Bible, is composed of stuff that's about equal parts beautiful and horrifying) they all tend to follow the same principle: "Believe the way I do or I'll kill you." Moslems are not "compelled" to kill unbelievers any more than Christians are, but followers of both religions have a long and evil history of doing just that. To deny this is to deny reality.

Not that it's just a Christian and Islamic problem, of course. Fundamentalists of all religions, as I said above, tend to act the same way.

Re:Really?

[Daniel Dvorkin]

You think you're kidding, don't you?

Check out the history of Buddhism in Japan some time. The Buddhist takeover was just as unpleasant as any Crusade, Inquisition, or Jihad.

As for the Hare Krishnas, the only reason there's never been an H.K. holy war is because there aren't enough of them. Same reason there's never been a Wiccan Crusade, or whatever. Meanwhile, recall that H.K. is an offshoot of Hinduism -- and India's history shows plenty of horror committed in the name of that religion.

Re:Really?

[dublin]

The Islamic fundies (not particularly worse than Christian fundies or ultranationalist Israelis, just more prominent)...

Oh really? And when was the last time you heard a Christian "fundie" advocating holy war, engaging in state-sponsored terrorism, and displaying the shocking lack of regard for human life exhibited by Al Queda?

Your post is just an attempt to smear and inflame Christians and Jews. Keep in mind that the ONLY countries in the history of the world to permit free speech are those based on Christian priciples.

Remember those Pilgrims we'll be thinking about this week? They were radical fundamentalist Christians who had the courage and guts to sail halfway around the world to a strange and dangerous land. They carved out a place where they could could worship and rule themselves as free men, and in doing so, changed the world tremendously for the better. We could do worse than to learn from those Puritans.

(Those of you truly open-minded enough to consider the posiibility of "true truth" (as Francis Schaeffer put it) might consider reading some Jonathan Edwards this week, in the spirit of the season...)

Re:Really?

[AppyPappy]

The Islamic fundies (not particularly worse than Christian fundies or ultranationalist Israelis,

Cool. An equal opportunity bigot.

Re:Really?

[dvdeug]

> They carved out a place where they could could worship and rule themselves as free men

No, actually the Pilgrams carved out a place where they could run a theocracy that was harsher than anything in England but happened to agree with their religion.

The principles of free speech come not from the Bible, but instead from the European Enlightenment - John Locke, et la. Note they are largely upheld in India and Japan, two other non-Christian nations.

Re:Really?

[dachshund]

Fortunately for us, groups like Al Queda are political creatures. Their politics may be bizarre, their means may be sickening, but they generally have a goal and are committed to fighting towards it. Now, there are obviously groups who could care less about the message of their actions, the religious nuts in Japan being one good example. But I don't think Al Queda is one of those groups.

It strikes me that launching a potential global epidemic is a poor way to gain support for your movement. I would imagine that it'd only be a matter of time before Smallpox epidemics broke out in Islamic nations-- and at that point, sympathy for Al Queda would evaporate. It's very depressing, but nothing would bring the Muslim world together with the US (against Al Queda) than images of hospital wards full of sick and dying Americans and Iranians/Pakistanis/Saudis.

That's no guarantee that Al Queda won't do it as a last, desperate measure... But I'd like to think that they know the potential consequences.

This is all aside from the fact that Smallpox is somewhat harder to come by than Anthrax-- if the source of the virus was traced to Iraq, it would be a very bad day for Saddam Hussein.

Re:Really?

[ritlane]

Wow, this is such crap. Read about Sabra and Chatila, where the Israelis surrounded a camp of thousands of Palenstinan civilians, then didn't allow them to flee as militant Christians invaded and slaughtered them by the thousands.

Read about it on K5

By the way, the Israeli general leading this massacre was Sharon (the current Prime minister) and he had to resign over this.

I know this can start a flame war, and that was not my intention. The poster just displayed such ignorance of history (Crusades what?) that I had to mention it.

It is terrible that the poster can understand that the problem isn't a particular religion, but self-rigeousness. When someone believes "God want's this" they don't have to justify their actions to anyone. This is the dangerous part, and that is something any fundamentalist is capable of.

By the way, the USA was not "based on Christian principles" it was based on principles set out by enlightened philosophers. The LAWS are based on judeo christian laws believed by pretty much all religions (thou shalt not kills, etc..) You are confusing the Pilgrims with the founding fathers. The Puritans were no happier with freedom of speech or individual rights than anyone else. It was the founding fathers (who were often diests) who laid out these principles.


---Lane

Re:Really?

[Silver222]

Yes, really. How about Jerry Falwell, with his attacks on gays and lesbians and feminists and everyone who didn't give money to the "Buy Jerry Falwell a Rolls Royce foundation"? According to him, they were to blame for Sept 11 because God got pissed and sent a bunch of Muslims after us.

If you really think that free speech and democracy come out of the bible, you better read it again. You missed a bunch of parts.

Re:Really?

[dublin]

Oops, the phone rang and I forgot the final thought: Jonathan Edwards is especially timely here, because has been regarded by a great many historians as the most brilliant thinker in the history of North America. He had been president of Princeton for less than a year when he died at age 55 in 1757 as the result of a smallpox vaccination...

Re:Really?

[dublin]

The principles of free speech come not from the Bible, but instead from the European Enlightenment - John Locke, et la. Note they are largely upheld in India and Japan, two other non-Christian nations.

I beg to differ. The prevailing attitude in Europe that made the enlightenment possible was itself directly caused by the Reformation. It was this event (the Reformation) that has shaped modern civilization perhaps more than any other in the past thousand years: As a result of the Reformation it was permissable to investigate all things in God's creation, as there was a new confidence (which has been well borne-out, by the way) that all truth validates Truth.

India and Japan are decidedly mushy in thier support of free speech and other ideals of freedom. They have adopted them (although not entirely wholeheartedly) in an effort to become more Western and modern, but it is quite obvious that neither would have ever developed these ideas on thier own - in fact, they are two very old, mostly brutally ruled, cultures that never showed any significant inclination toward free ideals before they were colonized by the British. I think that kind of makes my point, not yours...

Re:Really?

[overunderunderdone]

No, actually the Pilgrams carved out a place where they could run a theocracy that was harsher than anything in England but happened to agree with their religion.

The principles of free speech come not from the Bible, but instead from the European Enlightenment - John ocke, et la. Note they are largely upheld in India and Japan, two other non-Christian nations.

The Pilgrims did no such thing - I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the Puritans who came along later. And as for the Puritans, sitting here in the former colony of Rhode Island I find your statments about the European Enlightenment inventing the concept of free speech and freedom of religion out of whole cloth with no reliance on their christian heritage a little incredible. The colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations was the very first government anywhere in the world without a state religion and with an understanding of freedom of religion that we would recognise as such today. It was founded by a Puritan (and later Baptist) preacher on a christian doctrine of "soul liberty" that he at least apparently managed to extrapolate from the teachings of the Bible and his Puritan theology when Locke was but 4 years old. Despite modern efforts to turn Williams into a proto-enlightenment, proto-modernist thinker his theology was rooted in Puritan thought and would probably find it's closest kinship today in double-seperatist babtists, the very definition of fundamentalism. (When Williams was the pastor of the church in Salem he excommunicated the entire colony of Massachusetts because it didn't live up to his standards, by the end of his life he would only take communion with his wife and he wasn't to sure about her either)

Re:Really?

[Moofie]

I see your point, but I contend that Mr. Falwell is as good a student of the Christian Bible as Mr. Bin Laden is.

Religion did not create this crisis. Hatred did.

Re:Really?

[fors]

Fundamentalist Christian movements throughout history even in modern times have more than shown their own willingness to shed others blood to save them from damnation. Nobody in their right minds believes that the "Moral Majority" wouldn't use force to contain ideas and beliefs that they find dangerous.

Re:Really?

[dublin]

Oh, just for fun, I spent a bit of time digging up a reference from Locke that I remembered, but couldn't lay my hands on - I think after reading it you'll find that perhaps you don't agree with Locke quite so much as you thought:

"Lastly, those are not at all to be tolerated who deny the being of God. Promises, covenants, and oaths, which are the bonds of human society, can have no hold upon an atheist. The taking away of God, though but even in thought, dissolves all; besides also, those that by their atheism undermine and destroy all religion, can have no pretence of religion whereupon to challenge the privilege of toleration." -John Locke, Essay on Toleration, 1685

We are under no obligation to tolerate the intolerable. Even Locke knew that...

You may not like it, but the freedoms that the United States brought to the world are inseparable from Christianity. Even George Washington recognized this, and thought it important enough to include as a warning in his famous (although rarely read in schools anymore, since it offends leftist sensibilities) Farewell Address:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." -George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

Finally, if you really believe the tripe your professors evidently pushed (that the Founding Fathers were deists, unitarians, atheists, or worse) you're just showing your gullibility. Even a casual perusal of the original sources makes it quite clear to even the thickest reader that these men were deeply committed to the Christian God of the Bible, and that such belief shaped and molded thier every thought and action. If you don't believe me, start reading them for yourselves - not modern summaries of what they wrote, but their actual words. You'll find a group of very committed Christians, and their own words will make that quite apparent.

Mousepox question

[crumbz]

Didn't the Soviets conduct research into musepox as a more contaigous virulaent agent? I seem to recall the lethality of the modified mousepox as high as 95%.

Bad People eliminated from world. Film at eleven.

[jabbo]

You're kidding yourself if you think that unemployed scientists from the Soviet biopreparat program would be totally unwilling to cart out some specimens and go work for another nation, provided the pay was good enough.

Inspections of the Soviet and Iraqi research facilities in the 1990's indicated that both had been actively working on biological agents. Yeltsin went ahead and publicly stated this, then dismantled the Russian programs. Hussein, of course, has not called any press conferences on the matter.

So, you are stating that both US military inspectors and the former president of Russia are liars. You need to provide some solid evidence of your position in order to be taken seriously!

Thank Genghis Khan and Cortez

[jabbo]

while you're at it.

The use of biological agents in war is as old as war itself.

We can deal with it...

[DaoudaW]

IANAD, but it seems to me that the smallpox threat is a bit overblown. The victory over smallpox was in large part due to the characteristics of the disease itself: short incubation period, very visible presentation. These characteristics would also make it easier to fight in the case of a terrorist attack.

FWIW, my Dad had mild case of smallpox as a child. He was not horribly disfigured nor did he describe it as particularly uncomfortable as diseases go.

Re:We can deal with it...

[TGK]

But there's a real difference between a weaponized strain of a virus and the naturaly occuring brand. Weaponized viruses are frequently resistant to knowen vacination tecniques. They have altered incubation periods and transmitable stages allowing for rapid amplification through a population or use as a localized weapon (depending on the desires of those producing the virus). Most are also selectively produced for leathality. Weaponized smallpox has a kill rate in excess of 80%. That's scary as hell. Ebola is scary because in its natural state it has a kill rate that high.

Just beware that a weaponized strain and the naturaling occuring type are two different things. And yes, smallpox has been weaponized.

Biopreparat

[SpinyNorman]

I don't know why everyone is so focused on smallbox, even if it's an awful disease.

Ken Alibek (formerly Kantajin Alibekov) who was the deputy director of the immense Soviet Biopreparat biowarfare research and manufacture organizion defected to the US in the early 90's, and has written a book on it as well as testifying to congress and having been thoroughly debriefed on the Soviet program.... They worked on a whole slew of biological weapons including things like marlburg virus (similar to ebola) that would make you wish you only had smallpox!

The Soviets stockpiled weaponized smallpox, plague, marlburg, tularemia etc in quantities of tens of tons each! They aqpparently killed around 100,000 nazis with tularemia in the Battle of Stalingrad.

Re:Biopreparat

[SpinyNorman]

Journal of Historical Review

Biowarfare in the 20th Century

Biohazard (Alibek) review

It's hard to imagine anyone much better placed than Alibek to know the truth.

Re:Biopreparat

[mesocyclone]

Smallpox is more dangerous than these because it is more contagious. While you have to be sick to spread it, you have to be REALLY BADLY SICK to spread marburg. Plague and tularemia can be treated with antibiotics.

The Soviet systems were designed to be dispersed in an area immediately following an anti-city nuclear attack, when the infrastructure for dealing with disease would be wiped out, and when radiation induced low immunity would exist.

Re:Biopreparat

[duffbeer703]

I believe the outbreak happened when German forces were driving to the Caucasus to seize the Soviet oil supply, just before Stalingrad.

A major outbreak of tularemia occured on the battlefield, starting on the German side of the lines. I do not remember how many died, but I do know that 250,000 German soldiers were affected.

Eventually, the outbreak spread to the Russian front, where 65,000 troops were affected.

Previous outbreaks in Russia were very small. From 1937-1940 there were about 75 cases of the disease, most in Siberia.

There was also an outbreak of Q-fever (a disease that does not exist naturally in Russia) among German troops fighting on the Crimea.

The Russians clearly engaged in biological warfare campaigns.

True, if

[wiredog]

the benefit from vaccinating far outweighs the potential side-effects.

That's true, if there is an outbreak. If there is not, then people are risking injury and death for no benefit.

I was vaccinated twice, once in childhood and again in the Army, but the latter was 15 years ago. The vaccine does wear off after 10-20 years.

Re:True, if

[sphealey]

That's true, if there is an outbreak. If there is not, then people are risking injury and death for no benefit.

Unlike cost/benefit analysis, which considers only what is known, decision tree analysis assigns probabilities to unknown events and computes a pseudo-"expected value" for various courses of action.

You don't have to assign a very high probability of occurance to a biowar attack to get a result that says go ahead and vaccinate.

Think about how many Congressional employees would volunteer for the Army's anthrax vaccine, even given what is known about its side effects to get a sense of the analysis that is required in this situation.

sPh

You forgot the most substantial one out there: PBS

[jabbo]

Frontline special: Plague Wars

This is the most balanced, incisive, and original presentation I've seen on the topic. It was written several years ago and was not rushing to meet some deadline or focused on the current agent du jour. It's fantastic.

Anyone who likes Laurie Garrett's work (or Ken Alibek's) will find this site worth digging into, deeply.

Have "fun".

And it gets worse.. genetically modified mousepox

[Anonymous Coward]

Australians scientists found that by adding a single gene to mousepox they can create a 100% lethal virus (even to resistant mice), with the effect of vaccines being greatly reduced. It is thought that the gene placed in smallpox would have a similarly devastating effect on humans. heres an article and another.

Rats, Lice and History

[jamie]

I haven't read the Smallpox book reviewed here. But if you're interested in the history of disease, I heartily recommend Rats, Lice and History. Not a boring text, it meanders all over the place with a very dry wit and makes a truly horrible subject enjoyable to read about.

Re:Lets hope this is just speculation.

[Smallest]

I sometimes wonder if it might not be easier if we all just converted to Islam, and had done with it.

it wouldn't. note that a good deal of the trouble in Afghanistan is due to the constant fighting between different 'ethnic' groups. people will always find a reason to find a "them" to contrast their own "us".

-c

Thanks!

[wiredog]

I've added that to my file of biowar links.

Jenner time! Do the cowpox!

[Ukab the Great]

Time to start milking cows again. At least cyberporn gave us lots of practice.

More important than that...

[Orkin]

It is far more important that we, as the only superpower in the world, work NOT on additional countermeasures to combat terrorism and biological attacks, but on making such attacks irrelevant.

You're absolutely right in pointing to our hopeless foreign policy as the instigator of this entire ordeal.

If our military forces are used only in accordance with their constitutionally aligned duties, this paradigm would not exist, and terrorist attacks would be a non-issue.

Re:More important than that...

[rosie_bhjp]

I agree and disagree. True, we (the US) have the 'limelight' being the only remaining superpower, and sometimes use that power incorrectly, but bin Laden and crew are members of a religious Mass Movement.

Mass Movements, and the people within them, generally look to alienate themselves from the rest of the world so as to strengthen the bond between their own members.

Quite simply, if not the US, they will find _someone_ to hate (what is struggle without conflict?). We are merely being used as a scapegoat.

Re:Paranoid hoax

[KerosX]

While the chances that smallpox being released as a weapon may be small, there is still a very real possibility it could happen. I doubt you could convince me that (a) the only two places that smallpox exists are in the two specified locations, granted I agree that the chances of this are remote and (b) that human error or greed could not result in the release of smallpox from either of these two locations.

Considering how devastating smallpox could be, why shouldn't we attempt to protect ourselves. If there are people that are "intelligent" and determined enough to take over an airplane and kill themselves and over 5000 others, finding at least one person willing and capable of releasing smallpox into this world can't be that hard.

Bio and Chemical Weapons

[ackthpt]

Yesterday I was surfing the some pages from CNN's site and Time which showed the elaborate caves or bunkers outside of Kabul, which reportedly are a number of other locations in southern Afghanistan. Though Omar and bin-Laden have claimed these are only for their own self defense. In recent days these characters have shown themselves to be truly villains worthy of any James Bond:

Devastating weapons

Fanatical followers

Leaders bent on pure society, world domination

Using science and technology to support their own ends, even where use would appear to conflict with their beliefs.

Not BS

[wiredog]

We keep the stocks for research into the disease. I think there's an effort underway to sequence the genetic code. Hopefully the research will lead to a safer vaccine than the one we have now. It's based on cow pus.

Small pox...

[laserjet]

It's not the small pox I am worried about. It's the BIG pox.

Re:Small pox...

[sphealey]

Intended to be funny I know, but when did that every stop a Slashdotter from posting a pedantic response?

Anyway, large pox is cowpox. Smallpox is called small in relation to the pox seen on cows.

sPh

Re:Lets hope this is just speculation.

[drenehtsral]

This guy is not a troll, and he does have a point (about the dolphins)... I think that if everybody were to convert to Islam (or any other religeon for that matter) people would jsut fight between sects and over minor differences. Human beings are quarrelsome, territorial, disagreeable animals and we need a reason to feel superior and we've proven over time that if we have no real reason to fight, we will anyway. If we have paradise, we'll find a way to fuck it up (and no I don't believe in the garden of eden and all that stuff, but it is a good fable, and it does illustrate my point pretty well).

As for intelligent (and even unitelligent) animals, they will be glad to see us go. Even if we nuke everything into a radioactive smoking pile of rubble i doubt we could completely eradicate the volcanic vent bacteria, nor blue green algae, or a bunch of other little seeds of life. When people talk about saving the environment/saving the planet/ etc... what they really mean is "save ourselves" (which is a fine message i guess), but we're playing with our own destruction, the planet will go on without us, and as resilliant as we may be, we're not the most resilliant species out there. Whatever, fuck-it, i'm gonna go eat lunch.

I wonder

[wiredog]

I wonder how many people will catch that reference. Somehow, I doubt anyone with mod points will. Insightful and funny.

Re:Paranoid hoax

[furiousgeorge]

Get yourself informed.

One of the last smallpox outbreaks in the 70's occurred along the Iran/Iraq border.

Can u convince yourself that there is ZERO change that there were no specimens taken and preserved?

I can't.

Suggested Reading about Chemical and Biowarfare

[anzha]

I would strongly suggest looking up the book of _A Higher Form of Killing_ (iirc, by Harris and Paxman). It's a sobering book. I found it in our high school library in Los Alamos. I'd be curious to see if it is still there...

I would have read this but...

[thogard]

I'm an old bastard based on typical /. readership and I've have shots to protect me aginst this silly small pox crud. I don't see a problem, why should you or did someone else forget about you too?

Re:I would have read this but...

[czardonic]

From what I have heard, there is no confirmation that the vaccination is permanent (they are studying this now). Had any booster shots lately?

Re:I would have read this but...

[humanerror]

The vaccinations are only effective for around 10 years. I was vaccinated in the 60s as a child and again in the 80s in the military. The latter one might still be marginally effective against naturally occuring smallpox, but as has been pointed out, it's more likely than not that any bioattack using smallpox will be resistant to the cowpox (not pus, why do all you people keep saying that?) based vaccine.

Re:i also find it strange...

[Ledge]

There are simple steps that people can do to avoid contracting AIDS. Don't you see a little difference there?

Dont StockPile Vaccine

[squaretorus]

We can spend BILLIONS of dollars in anticipation of a POSSIBLE smallpox attack, or spend those exact same billions of dollars on a project GUARANTEED to save millions of lives.

The HIV epidemic in Africa is putting whole territories in danger of having an average age under 20 as often more than 60% of adults are HIV positive. The US and UK based drug companies and governments aren't doing anything about this - they have the drugs to slow the spread of HIV right now - they choose not to use them.

Spending this money on treating HIV in Africa will prevent many millions of infections over the next 10, 20 and hundred years. That is no exageration - just type HIV, Africa, Epidemic, Statistics into Google and see what you get!

I vote for the safe bet. Smallpox won't happen - it MIGHT, but HIV already IS. Do you splint the fat guys broken leg or lecture him about his diet?

Sorry for getting political - but this does 'matter'

Re:Dont StockPile Vaccine

[hobbs]

I see that you have a sensitivity towards solving the current AIDs problems, but smallpox was a major epidemic. According to this article about stockpiling vaccine in Canada, it states:

Smallpox claimed around one billion lives before being declared eradicated in 1980.

That's not a small number, which is indicative of how dangerous it can be. Also in the same article, it notes that it would cost less than CAD$400 million (~US$250mil) to stockpile for Canada. The US could presumably make it cheaper for the enormous scale.

Then you have to think like a taxpayer. Do I spend my equiv US$8 for my dose of smallpox vaccine against a potential epidemic, or do I spend it on people I'll never see in Africa? Then remember that a large population of the States lives in what's termed the "Bible Belt" ...

Re:Dont StockPile Vaccine

[sql*kitten]

The HIV epidemic in Africa is putting whole territories in danger of having an average age under 20 as often more than 60% of adults are HIV positive. The US and UK based drug companies and governments aren't doing anything about this - they have the drugs to slow the spread of HIV right now - they choose not to use them.

How is this the West's fault - like everything else in the world seems to be? The real problem in Africa isn't anything to do with drugs, it's a lack of both condoms and the inclination to use them. You see, apart from the tiny minority of cases in which a victim receives contaminated blood through transfusion, or is deliberatly and maliciously infected, AIDS is completely avoidable. Just don't have unprotected sex with strangers, and don't share needles if you insist on injecting drugs. Simple, isn't it? Until the Africans learn that, tho', there isn't enough medicine in the universe to make a difference.

A bio-terror attack is something completely different, it is a cold-blooded attack on innocent people. It doesn't even compare at all. And let's not forget, us potential victims of bio attacks are paying for our own defences through our taxes. There's no-one there to help us, so we rely on ourselves. There's a lesson there.

Re:Dont StockPile Vaccine

[zulux]

AIDS is completely avoidable. Just don't have unprotected sex with strangers, and don't share needles if you insist on injecting drugs.

People who aquired their HIV before 1993 have my sympathy. After 1993, with a few exceptions, they have my scorn.

We, as a country, should help to the best of our abilities the ones who diden't know any better - the others we should view as a Darwinian cleaing of the stupid-gene.

Re:Dont StockPile Vaccine

[nick_burns]

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

We can spend BILLIONS of dollars in anticipation of a POSSIBLE smallpox attack, or spend those exact same billions of dollars on a project GUARANTEED to save millions of lives.

comared to

The US and UK based drug companies and governments aren't doing anything about this - they have the drugs to slow the spread of HIV right now - they choose not to use them.

I guess this means saving someones life and postponing the onset of the disease are the same thing.

And one more thing. HIV is nothing compared to smallpox or the bubonic plague. I could sit next to an HIV infected person all day and not get sick. A minute in a room whwere someone with smallpox was yesterday will most likely result in me contracting the disease. It's a much worse disease and if it is released, the small cost that is GUARANTEED (we liked that word above) to provide protection to Americans is better spent than giving drugs to African's who don't practice safe sex.

Re:Dont StockPile Vaccine

[thogard]

There is a large class of people who end up with aids because of the common theory that having sex with a virgin will protect you. Most people from poor areas that are HIV infected don't know it combined with the witch doctor medicine of raping small children you are getting many infected 3yr olds.

As far as cures and US funding goes, aids is still seen as gods punishment for being gay by many people in congress and until they think they are going to catch it, there won't be much more funding for it. Of course that would change real fast if a dead hiv+ arab was fished out of the Potomic river who just happend to have lots of biology books in his house.

Re:Dont StockPile Vaccine

[squaretorus]

I would suggest you do a little reading into the situation in Africa before making these 'good aids / bad aids' statements.

The majority of people in Africa over the past 10 years have not been aware that HIV exists, let alone how to prevent infection. The fault lies with their governments of the day, and the international community, for not educating them. Many of these governments are non-democratic and only retain power through the support of Shell, BP, the Diamond cartels, and other Western businesses. These in turn are supported by the Western governments.

Spend a couple of days reading into this and then tell me that its 'their own fault'.

I won't be in today, Mr. Smithers.

[sharkey]

I have Smallpox.
...
Well, it wasn't wiped out in MY house!
&#151Homer Simpson

Re:Timely - US will not destroy its smallpox stock

[MarkLR]

Why use a virus to retaliate? Using a virus would just mean infected people fleeing south into South Korea or north to China or Russia infecting those countries. The US likely wouldn't even use nuclear weapons to response they would use the army.

Ahhhh!

[wiredog]

So we wan't to catch the big pox.

Re:Ahhhh!

[laserjet]

wan't [sic]

Is not a contraction. You have been warned. Carry on your way, nothing to see here.
You hear the sirens drift to silence as the grammar police drives away in their patrol car.

but,.. but... but...

[Anonymous Coward]

here is a modern difference.

Give me a few hundred thousand dollars, access to a research lab (any good universitylab woudl do) and w willingnes to die if I fucked up, and I'm reasonably certain that I could *make* smallpox from scratch.
This hasnt been talked about, and its brand new with modern technology, but its true.

One no longer needs acess to an existing strain of the fivus. Just whip it up yourself.

And no, I wont tell how I would do it.

Very Good Myth-bashing Article

[v4sudeva]

on Anthrax over here. It's well-written, concise, and debunks a lot of the current Anthrax hype in a very sensible way.

Not terribly on-topic, but definitely related.

Smallpox makes a bad weapon

[einhverfr]

People are afraid of biological warfare, but they forget one important thing about it. Although terrorists or resistance fighters rarely are afraid to die for their causes, they usually don't want to bring large-scale destruction to those they seek to defend. So contagious diseases are NOT good agents of bioterror for most purposes.

Smallpox is not the threat-- it is well-guarded, so it is beyond the means of the lone lunatic. The more organized people like bin Laden's group are unlikely to use it.

There is a larger threat though-- a lone lunatic COULD theoretically spread ebola, though. This is a much more scary scenario.

Re:Smallpox makes a bad weapon

[pdqlamb]

Although terrorists or resistance fighters rarely are afraid to die for their causes, they usually don't want to bring large-scale destruction to those they seek to defend. So contagious diseases are NOT good agents of bioterror for most purposes.

Smallpox is not the threat-- it is well-guarded, so it is beyond the means of the lone lunatic. The more organized people like bin Laden's group are unlikely to use it.

It's possible, however, that a group of Western civilization-hating Luddites (like Al Quaeda) from a remote part of the world (like Afghanistan) would be willing to use this on remote foreign soil (like America).

The rationale in that case would be, first, it will kill lots of Americans. Second, it will scare a bunch more. Third, they will probably get it under control, at great expense, before it gets to us. And fourth, if smallpox does get back to us, we live in isolated villages and towns. It won't spread fast when it gets here. And those wonderful American doctors will be spreading vaccine before more than a few of our people get sick.

And if Iraq has a secret store, which of the above would not also apply to them? Remember too, that the moment an outbreak of smallpox occurs, the vaccine will be released. Rich and powerful men may well calculate they can steal or buy vaccine to protect themselves as soon as the CDC lets go of the vaccine.

Re:Smallpox makes a bad weapon

[number11]

Don't count on "well-guarded". That may apply to the freezer at the CDC and the one in Moscow. But the USSR made tons of the stuff. And while those programs have been closed, some of the people who worked in them are out of work, even those with jobs may not have gotten paid in six months. The corner loan shark says "we got two choices... either I break both your legs and my friends rape your wife, or I cancel your debt and give you a thousand bucks US cash, it's your choice, all you gotta do is bring me a vial." You don't think anyone kept a souvenir from the glory days when they had a really important national security job? You think the mafia has too many scruples?

Re:Paranoid hoax

[Ned_kelly]

You are naive.

Anyone with the money, the time and the inclination can get smallpox. All it takes is an airticket to Siberia, a bus trip to a cemetery and a shovel. The virus lives in frozen cadavers.

The epidemic of Windows users

[ocie]

We?ve been overrun by windows users using ? instead of ' for an apostrophe. What a catastrophe.

I got a video i'm itching to release.....

[t0qer]

I'm in a weird situation here, a friend of mine works for a .gov agency that could be a potential target of terrorist. This friend recently had me capture a video for use on the internal network. I still got a copy on my hard drive, I don't want to release it because I know how traceable anything on the net is.

The video features a doctor, and a couple of .mil dudes. The whole tape is about what threats are known to the goverment, what is on our soil now. Does .gov admitting they know of 5 suitcase sized nukes interest anyone? I got this video 2 weeks ago BTW. I feel torn between knowing the .gov want's to keep these things secret, the poor people that don't know, and the fact I could get really really busted for releasing this video. Worse is my friend could lose thier job. Anyways, here is a rundown of what the .gov said.

5 suitcase sized nukes.
Mustard Gas
Smallpox on our money.
Anthrax in the mail

It's kinda nasty cause it shows what people look like when they've been infected by these bio threats. I hope I stayed on topic here.

Re:I got a video i'm itching to release.....

[sirgoran]

You seem to have left out the stores of Nerve Gas in Oregon.

Anyone who thinks that the US Govt didn't do any research into Bio-warfare should crawl back under the rock they've been hiding under. There always has been and always will be the covert research into this kind of thing. If anything, we as a global people should be aware that there is always the possibility for someone to release some bug on the world.

Should we be frightened? No. Should we be alert to what is going on around us? Yes. We should be prepared for it, expect it, and work to make sure that it doesn't happen. The world has changed, and we just need to realise that the unthinkable might just happen.

Goran

Re:I got a video i'm itching to release.....

[t0qer]

You seem to miss my point,

I am sitting on an internal .gov video of them actually admitting what they know is here. My dilema is do I show it to the people or do I keep my friend safe. It was really weird yesterday hearing the .gov slip about the nuke thing when i've known about it weeks in advance.

Re:I got a video i'm itching to release.....

[t0qer]

How and where do I get space for 100mb? That's the file size.

Is this really that big of a deal?

[geigertube]

Seeing words like 'sobering' and 'terrifying' applied to terrorist biowarfare seems a bit over the top to me. We stand a greater chance of dying in a car accident or any of a wide range of more mundane lethal incidents then we do of getting smallpox, anthrax, or getting a plane flown into our office building. Yet, people arent submitting hand-wringing posts about these incidents that have a much greater chance of killing us.

Looks like novelty is the issue here, (Look! heres a ~new~ way we can die!) not potential lethality.

Gulf War syndrome

[mangu]

Given the large amount of research (and money) spent studying the "Gulf War" syndrome in the last ten years, without any conclusion, it's not sensible to blame any single factor.

But if I had to find a culprit, I would blame stress. Some people are more sensitive to stress than others. When hundreds of thousands of people are subject to such conditions, statistically there will be some extreme reactions. Soldiers coming home from wars always have some strange symptoms. They called it "shell shock" in World War I, for instance.

The only reason why people keep blaming anthrax vaccines, or "agent orange" as they did after Vietnam, is that there is a liability issue if the cause is found to be a manufactured product. Lawyers could not profit if the cause was found to be stress, since war is supposed to be stressful. At most, the veterans would get psychiatric treatment from the government, instead of "compensation" from a manufacturer.

ah, but its worse...

[hamburger lady]

smallpox isn't that bad, as has been posted before, its only contagious when symptoms are showing, etc etc.

what really scares the bejeezus outta me is modified smallpox.

to summarize the article, some guys in australia discovered by genetically modifying mousepox (pretty weak, like chicken pox) that they could turn it into a far, far deadlier virus which was pretty much immune to vaccines (!).

now, this kind of genetic modification isn't easy. but a vaccine-resistant strain of smallpox which kills somewhere up to 90% or so of people infected would really suck.

then again, maybe such a modification wouldn't work on smallpox like it does for mousepox. i hope.

Re:ah, but its worse...

[meldroc]

The Soviet Union created some ghastly genengineered diseases. Off the top of my head, they genengineered the smallpox virus by adding genes from the Marburg virus (similar to Ebola). The result was a virus nicknamed Blackpox or Ebolapox that is airbone & contagious like smallpox, but caused a nasty bleeding-out-your-pores hemorrhagic fever with a near 100% fatality rate like Ebola. They also added the gene for myelin (the coating around nerve cells) to a plague bacteria. Treatment is simple enough, give antibiotics, and the bacteria goes away. But when the immune system sees the myelin proteins in the bacteria, it attacks anything with myelin, such as nerve cells. The result is a multiple sclerosis type of illness that results in a lingering death.

Why is a smallpox attack more likely now?

[truthgun]

I realize this is off-topic, but I hate when people just toss out statements.

Sept. 11 may make the frightening reality of a terrorist attack more obvious
but it doesn't make a smallpox attack more likely. The motivation
for terrorism was there before Sept. 11 and I am sure it's still there.

It would seem the mind behind the Sept. 11 attack did not fear retribution, did not
consider human lives in themselves of value, had no problem with self
sacrifices. Perhaps we should count ourselves lucky that the attack was not
smallpox virus strategically distributed.

If anything I believe Sept. 11 makes a smallpox attack less likely. It shows the
terrorist's weapon of choice and it's not biological.

Come one, come all!

[feed_me_cereal]

It's definately not suprising that this book is selling like hotcakes. In fact, this stupid "war" has been turning all sorts of profits here at home. American flags, t-shirts with with dumb slogans in red-white-blue, all sorts of singers vyeing for "anthem of the tragedy/conflict", and whatever else there is to give people some false sense of security through mindless nationalism. And as always, "2% of the profits will be donated to NYC because we're charitable people who care and all that bullshit." Of course, as this book shows, the money isn't only in t-shirts of osama bin laden with crosshairs over his head; theres also plenty of money to be made in getting information on terrorism, any information, to a paranoid public who will eat it up like candy. I've seen so many info-mags and other shitty looking paperbacks made up as legitimate "investigations into terror" and tossed up on the shelves as quickly as some crackpot ex-weekley world news writer can come up with them.

However, from what I gathered from the review, I'd say that this book sounds, to a greater or lesser degree, different. Obviously a lot of time and work went into it. It's not just some hyped up piece of trash meant to satiate some helpless, paranoid desire for more information since it was being written well before the attacks. The history of smallpox is interesting and revealing as it, among other things, demystifies a lot of naive beliefs about the colonization of america by europeans. Having not read the book, and not being familliar with the author, I can only hope that it's honest and realistic. I would definately assume, however, that a piece of non-fiction or a documentary from a more reliable source would be a much better place to look if you want real information. In other words, maybe people should check out some of the suggestions in earlier comments before buying this book!

Small Pox Vaccine Allergies?

[carping]

How does one come to realize that one is allergic to the small pox vaccine?

-E

An interesting philosophical question...

[jd]

In order to be able to prevent an attack from weapon X, we must have a supply of weapon X, to develop a defence. In so doing, we also provide a known and ready source of weapon X, for someone to use.

This was the case with the Anthrax, which I believe has been identified as an artificial strain, traced to a US Govt. laboratory.

We also create a motive. Fear. There are many who fear the US, who believe that it is an ego-centric culture, which will crush any other culture it encounters, given time. (Honestly, I've not seen much evidence to the contrary.) The assumption that American culture is "superior" to all others does piss off a lot of people, all over the world.

(The current President's view that International Law and International Treaties are only valid if convenient, and disposable otherwise, has sparked off two International incidents and is likely to fuel further crises, as the EU takes on Microsoft, the Kyoto Accords are implemented in other countries, and Germany takes the US to court.)

In short, our very protectionistic, defensive attitude is our own worst enemy. Smallpox, Ebola, Genetically Modified insects or plants that replace native life with stuff deadly to humans... All this and more is possible, today.

And what reason, exactly, are we giving other nations, other societies, to NOT use such weapons? It seems to me that we're not only giving others plenty of reasons, we're also determined to give them the means, too. Most other countries abandoned such warfare as too random, too unpredictable, and too slow, to be of any military value, and gave up such work.

In the US, we're keeping stockpiles of deadly organisms, and are conducting GM research which would be considered unethical anywhere else in the world. We don't protect the environment (which makes it hard to detect intrusions when they can still be dealt with), and we ensure that health coverage of any quality goes to the well-off. (Who probably need it a lot less, than those who aren't!)

In short, then, we're practically giving away weapons that can be used against us, giving others reasons to use those weapons, and we're then making it impossible for us to genuinely do anything that might protect us, by pricing it out of existance.

IMHO, there is only one solution to this, and a lot of pro-Corporate people are not going to like, or understand, it. We have to take care of what we have - people, fauna, flora, habitats, EVERYTHING - as well as, or better than, ourselves.

THEN, we can detect the threats long before they even become threatening. We would be more likely to have the means to deal with it, because we would catch the problem sooner. The same way that cancer is a whole lot easier to treat, when it's starting, than when it has completely run rampant.

Further, if we learn to be more aware of our surroundings, we're much less likely to incite the kind of fanatical hatred that we have seen. Directly, or indirectly. Our fear incites the fear of others. Our awareness might, then, incite awareness in others, which might even reduce global suspicion and hostility.

Sounds utopian? Probably. Nobody said I was a realist. I am merely a software engineer, who knows that Output = fn(Input), that if you want to change the output, you must change the input, and that if you keep getting outputs you don't like, then don't keep changing the input the same way.

Re:An interesting philosophical question...

[dublin]

MHO, there is only one solution to this, and a lot of pro-Corporate people are not going to like, or understand, it. We have to take care of what we have - people, fauna, flora, habitats, EVERYTHING - as well as, or better than, ourselves.

One can only assume by your rant that you believe we should enforce a uniform standard of living for ll people everywhere. The Soviet Union tried that, and it's a great means of ensuring that everyone (but the truly elite - we really hardly have such a thing in this country relative to the Poilitburo or royalty of old) winds up equally ppor and miserable.

We have nations for a reason, and we haven't outgrown them, nor are we likely to in this millenium.

The people of those countries CAN and SHOULD change their own national governments to ensure that they act responsibly and in the best interest of the people of that nation. The US BY FAR the most generous benefactor nation in the entire history of the world. The superiority of our economic system generates a bountiful surplus that has allowed us to do so. While the US should encourage the formation of republics wherever it can, it is NOT our job or duty to try to sort out the internal politics of every corrupt regime on the planet.

In fact, the experiences of this century have clearly shown the futility of attempting to "install" free governments in countries where the people are not sufficiently motivated to fight in their own self-interest.

Obviously, you've fallen for the flawed logic of your leftist college professors. Following your course of action would result in the destruction of any means by which the US might be able to provide aid. We should encourage freedom, but the people of foreign nations must have some skin in the game. Welfare works even less well for nations than it does for individuals, sapping their desire and any initiative to get up and work for thier own benefit.

Our goal (the only truly compassionate one) should be to help these countries generate their own wealth, rather than being dependent on ours. (The US has a long and successful history of doing this, even for our enemies...)

Re:An interesting philosophical question...

[zulux]

While I disagree with the "Blame America First * " tone of your rant, I can second the motion on the economics of bio-warfare and weapons in general. It takes a shed load of money to make the first of any type of weapon, but the second one off the assembly line is cheap. We, and the rest of the industrial world, have been selling cheap weapons to countries that have neither the inteligence nor the ability to make them themselves. If a country is smart enough to produce their own nuke - then by definition they must a decent economy, and hence have a bit of civilisation. Countries that have to buy nukes are a different mater.

We can see the same effect with hand-guns here in America. The people who are collecters and manufacturers of hand-guns are smart enough not to use them without dire need (Gun shows are one of the least crime infected places in the world) - but the gang-thug who doesen't have the inteligence to make a gun himself, doesen't have the repect that goes with it.

* "Blame America First" is a Trademark of Noam Chomsky. Used without permission.

Re:An interesting philosophical question...

[Lovejoy]

This is one of those posts that masquerades as "insightful" but is really a superficial and baseless attack on the United States.

The US has many flaws, just like any other country, of course. But...

A few facts to counter:
This was the case with the Anthrax, which I believe has been identified as an artificial strain, traced to a US Govt. laboratory.
Nope. Just plain wrong.

The current President's view that International Law and International Treaties are only valid if convenient, and disposable otherwise, has sparked off two International incidents and is likely to fuel further crises, as the EU takes on Microsoft, the Kyoto Accords are implemented in other countries, and Germany takes the US to court.)
The EU is free to take on Microsoft for Microsoft's practices in the EU. They have no juristiction in the US. The Kyoto accords require the US to make up for developing countries' inability to contain their CO2 emissions. And who exactly has ratified the Kyoto accords? What difference does it make if we ratify it if other countries don't as well? Oh, and the World Court -I'm soooo scared. The President swore an oath to the Constitution of the US, not to the UN Charter. He must uphold our sovreignty - it's his job.

We have to take care of what we have - people, fauna, flora, habitats, EVERYTHING - as well as, or better than, ourselves.
Do humans not fit into the system at all? The fact is, the poorer a country is, the worse its environmental record. And communist countries (not socialist) are the worst offenders of all! If every country took care of its environment as well as the US, the worldwide environment would be in much better shape. The only countries in the world with tougher environmental laws are in the EU, so gimme a break.

In the US, we're keeping stockpiles of deadly organisms, and are conducting GM research which would be considered unethical anywhere else in the world

In 1969, Richard Nixon UNILATERALLY ended all us biological weapons research in the US. The Soviet Union agreed to do the same, but continued its research program. Soviet defector Ken Alibek states that he saw orders to build up bio-weapons stockpiles DIRECTLY FROM KRUSCHEV.

Further, if we learn to be more aware of our surroundings, we're much less likely to incite the kind of fanatical hatred that we have seen. Directly, or indirectly. Our fear incites the fear of others. Our awareness might, then, incite awareness in others, which might even reduce global suspicion and hostility.
OK - I'll give you this one. We're woefully ignorant as a nation. We need to learn more about the world. I think that will happen naturally as international travel becomes more common. (I hope so, at least)

I am merely a software engineer, who knows that Output = fn(Input), that if you want to change the output, you must change the input, and that if you keep getting outputs you don't like, then don't keep changing the input the same way.
Humans aren't difference engines. You can't reduce these billions of sociological and environmental variables to fn(Input) Things aren't that simple.

Smallpox

[JGski]

Re: Hoax

Assuming a leak couldn't occur from the CDC stock does seem reasonable. Assuming a leak couldn't occur from the former Soviet lab is not reasonable.

Re: We can deal with it

Not now we can't. There are 20M smallpox vaccine doses in the US now, all of which are of uncertain quality (could easily be as few as 5M still good). It's been estimated by CDC that it might be possible to use diluted vaccine to get 2x-3x but dilution has never been tried. The CDC/HHS estimate that we could have 70M doses in 3-4 months. There are 280M people in the US.

The lethality of smallpox historically is ~30% (which puts an upper bound of 84M US people if everyone is infected) in population with some natural genetic immunity. There are forms of small pox and populations without natural genetic immunity (native American peoples 200-400 years ago) which can have 90+% lethality. Since vaccination ceased in the US prior to 1978, most of the population doesn't artificial immunity so best case the 30% number applied but it could be higher. The main factor controlling the actual number is the nature of the propagation: traditional epidemics are diffusive while terrorist can make them non-diffusive.

Putting the 84M in perspective compare this to US war deaths:

Revolutionary War: 4,435
Civil War (North & South): 498,332
WWI: 116,708
Total (all nations) WWI deaths from combat: ~10M
Total deaths from Spanish Flu in 1918-1919: 21M (600,000 civilian+military US deaths, military US ~200,000 deaths - yes, more US soldiers died in WWI from flu than bullets! And 2x died from bullets in WWI than in Vietnam!)

WWII: 407,316
Vietnam: 58,168

Re: We can only hope...

So maybe we'll have enough vaccine within a year, BUT, the death rate due to lethal vaccine side effects (source: CDC) is about 1:1,000,000, or 280 deaths from vaccination, and 1:10,000 rate of moderate to severe side effects or 28,000 (bad enough to require hospitalization).

Contact Tracing is a must

[SolidCore]

This is the method that has been used in the control of endemic contagious disease for decades. A disease investigation begins when an individual is identified as having a communicable disease. An investigator interviews the patient, family members, physicians, nurses, and anyone else who may have knowledge of the primary patient's contacts, anyone who might have been exposed, and anyone who might have been the source of the disease. Then the contacts are screened to see if they have or have ever had the disease. The type of contact screened depends on the nature of the disease. A sexually transmitted disease will require interviewing only infected patients and screening only their sex partners. A disease that is spread by respiratory contact, such as tuberculosis, may require screening tens to hundreds of persons, such as other inmates in a prison.

Re:Timely - US will not destroy its smallpox stock

[anzha]

I don't think we'd be keeping it as a method of deterence against any country. Merely, as another poster pointed out, a tool for research.

Besides, IIRC, we've been VERY vocal that we'd retaliate against any use of Weapons of Mass Destruction (nukes, chem or bio weapons) with nukes. It has been doctrine since the Gulf War, again, iirc.

I will write on the blackboard, ten times,

[wiredog]

"Preview is my friend"

Man, major brain cramp.

Re:I will write on the blackboard, ten times,

[laserjet]

I like to correct grammar of other people to make myself feel better.. My posts usually have >3 typos, so don't feel bad.

Ask the Conneticut Indians

[HamNRye]

Smallpox was a terrible epidemic here in the states when it wqs used as a biological agent against the aboriginal populations in this country.

The Conneticut Indians saw Smallpox decimate 90% of their population. The effect of Smallpox on New England was more drastic than a Nuclear Weapon.

In a nuclear attack, you would lose 70-75% of the populated area, Smallpox killed at least 80% of the Native American population living in New England.

The vistory over smallpox came about because we used it against our old enemies and now our new ones are using it against us.

Jason Maggard
Proud to be Miami
Nothing4sale.org

Re:Lets hope this is just speculation.

[BobMarley]

Its terrifying enough that the terrorists have got Anthrax and Sarin, without them having smallpox as well.

Call it my ignorance, but isn't Sarin a fictitious Command & Conquer thing? :)

cheers,
BM

Everything's a threat in the wrong hands...

[Jace of Fuse!]

With Airplanes dumping powder on people's houses the proof is there that they don't need smallpox or Anthrax. Many pesticides and other common poisons could be easily as deadly.

What's worse is that this shit is going on and the media isn't noticing. Mostly to prevent panic, I'm sure, but it's pretty bad when someone lives less than 5 miles where something like this happens, and NO INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE!

If Small Pox were to break out -- unless it gets into the public eye before big-brother can step in -- don't worry, you won't ever know about it.

Re:Lets hope this is just speculation.

[shatteredpottery]

Nope. It's real. It's a nerve gas, developed by the Germans in the early 20th century, IIRC. It was used by a fanatical Japanese cult to gas a subway in Tokyo a few years ago. Killed approx. a dozen people, made another thousand or so quite ill. Some have never fully recovered. Its attraction is that it's relatively easy to manufacture.

Re:Looks Like We Boomers Win Again

[bluGill]

Oh really? You boomers might have a better survival rate, but it won't do you much good.

Already most of you expect socal security and investments to provide a lot of your retirement. Any accountent can tell you that it can't work as is, and when you knock off a lot of the produces (the yougner generation that is still working) you make it worse.

Mensa?

[Kasreyn]

"-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity."

I'm certainly not going to pay money to join a snobbish organization full of people who can't even spell "tolerance" correctly.

But you did. Sucker!

Re:Mensa?

[Moofie]

I'm going to invoke Gibson's Corollary to Godwin's Law.

"The first person to tout their membership in MENSA in the course of an argument immediately loses."
-Lee Gibson

THE DEMON IN THE FREEZER

[vmspionage]

a very good read from a credable source

http://cryptome.org/smallpox-wmd.htm

s/innocents/unbelievers/g; # happy?

[jabbo]

Extreme fundamentalist groups have historically either been cults or the proxy soldiers of Machiavellian guerilla leaders. Their relationship to the tenets of whatever religion they claim to represent is tenuous at best, in nearly every instance.

Regardless, the primary mechanism for carrying out the most horrific crimes by sane, ostensibly well-adjusted people has historically been a shift in belief to portray what they're planning as "right" and "just". And if there's another refuge for wrongheadedness quite as expansive as religion (can't prove it right or wrong -- when's the last time God bought you a drink?), I haven't ever seen it. The Nazis used the next-best excuse, the "good of humanity". Regardless, if you can't see what I'm getting at here, you're in denial.

Whether I'm a bigot and/or an asshole remains the subject of some debate amongst my peers, but I wanted to clarify this point.

OT: Scare or Deaths???

[jeff13]

Maybe I'm getting old...

Perhaps a journalist could help me understand the subtle difference between reporting an Anthrax Scare and reporting Anthrax Deaths. I'm under the impression that it would be improper to say scare if deaths had occured.

Just trying to keep the disinfo to a minimum.

Re:If its a virus

[markmoss]

Doesn't it only have RNA, not DNA. Most viruses have DNA. Some, like HIV, have only RNA. RNA viruses have to carry a "reverse transcriptase" enzyme that translates the RNA code to DNA, so then the normal cell machinery can start reading the DNA and cranking out copies of virus RNA and proteins.

There's an analogy between *NA and programming:
DNA is source code
RNA is the intermediate linkable code
Proteins are the executable object code.

Re:US, Too

[rosie_bhjp]

The US Government stopped all research in chemical and biological warfare (except to produce vaccines and treatments) ~1970 (I think it was '68). The Soviets' work was continued until the early '90s.

Pox'R'Us

[nick_davison]

Buying more nerf toys at toys'r'us (at least one major company still has dotcom fun) I saw a poster in the window for "POX". No mention of what it was but it did seem kind of badly timed.

The Great Pox is syphilis

[redelm]

AFAIK, The BIG pox was called the Great Pox and it is now called syphilis. This disease has mutated considerably over the centuries, and now has much less acute/obvious symptoms than in the past.

It was/is a very serious disease, and has confusing symptoms in many body systems. IIRC Dr Lister said: "he who knows the Great Pox knows medecine."

About your .SIG

[virg_mattes]

Oh, my, a member of MENSA, don't like stupidity, and you spell "tolerance" incorrectly in your .sig line?

None too bright, that.

Virg

Re:About your .SIG

[cha0sadddddddd]

hes had that sig for as long as ive been reading slashdot and i have to laugh at all the responses that sig gets.look at his comments and read the replies sometime.YHBT (by a .sig for gods sake)

Re:got this backwards

[kaimiike1970]

Kepp in mind that most Ebola outbreaks appear self-limiting because of the remote nature of the outbreak sites. Not to mention that very few of the people that have heretofore been involved in outbreaks are boarding international flights. An Ebola outbreak in midtown Manhattan or any major airport is another thing entirely.

Airborn ebola virus could be the apocolypse

[Suicyco]

Anybody ever read Hotzone? The airborn version of ebola (Hemmoraghic fever) that was discovered in a washington suburb a decade ago LUCKILY only infected monkeys. Normally ebola infects both humans and monkeys, but luckily is only transmissible via contact with bodily fluids. An airborn version was discovered and since this disease is 90% fatal, if a strain is found that can infect humans and has the structure to live in aerosol form, would be FAR FAR worse then smallpox. Most people have no idea how close we came to global oblivion of over 90% of the human race during that infection at the monkey quarantine house. Scary stuff. Stephen King wrote that Hotzone was the scariest book he had ever read. Its terrifying. And all it would take is one guy to walk into an international airport with an airborn version of the virus. 36 hours later the world is in deep doo doo.

Re:Paranoid hoax

[pyramid termite]

The virus lives in frozen cadavers.

You mean like a poxcicle?

Irony?

[ralphph]

Viktor Zhdanov, the man who first proposed a global eradication campaign to the WHO in 1958, then, ironically, became the first chairman of the Soviet council that oversaw the secret biowarfare program beginning in the 1970s.

Irony? Or extremely long term planning? (If not by him, then by the government that employed him)

After all, without Zhdanov's earlier work eliminating the need for mass vaccination, his work developing ICBM-delivered smallpox would have been futile.

Re:Irony?

[irony nazi]

Please allow the irony nazi to answer this.

It is extremely long term planning, rather than irony, that allowed for this.

Bigotry is on the loose

[Dictator For Life]

And if there's another refuge for wrongheadedness quite as expansive as religion, I haven't ever seen it.

Goodness! You don't have very much imagination, or you don't have very much appreciation for history.

The French Revolution was born out of intense antipathy for religion, and became a bloodbath.

Stalin butchered millions, and it wasn't in the name of God; Mao slaughtered something like 50 million in the Cultural Revolution.

Atheism has quite a colored history, my friend. Wake up and smell the atrocities.

Re:Fundamentalism

[prentis]

well If we cant look at history what else do we have to learn from? and yes you are right there is a diffrence between fundamentalist groups, dosent mean that they are any better though.

Yeah, right, sabra and shatilla again.

[guybarr]

You've said it yourself: CHRISTIAN killers, not jewish.
and in a land torn by a bloddy civil war, where every step could be your end, mistakes in judgement are a common thing.
The CAHAN inquery commity (which gave the recomendations about Sharon.) NEVER hinted this was an israelly crime of war, only that it was done under our ADMINISTRATIVE responsibility. i.e. once we conquered the area, we are responsible. You may not know, conquering and controlling are completely different things; there are many examples of actions done under a so-called "conquered" teritory which the conquerer did not approve of.

this is not a great chapter of israelly history, but , somehow, it is allways being highlighted as opposed to much "smaller-scale" events , the holocaust, say, or the armenien holocaust (where MUSLIM turks did a genocide on the armenians)

the fact you mention only a small-scale, controversial event from one side and fail to compare it to large-scale intentional ones from others is a great example of double standards.

Re:probably not

[Suicyco]

I dont think it was alarmist. A possibly airborn version of one of the worlds most deadly virii shows up in a washington suburb. Army and CDC personal tasked with dealing with the virus make mistakes on numerous occasions. And the virus did apparently spread between rooms after the building was locked down by USAMRID. It was SCARY is what it was, if you think the danger was overstated then you are downplaying what was almost a huge disaster.