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U.S. Department of Interior Ordered Offline
The whole of the U.S. Department of Interior has been forced off of the internet as a result of a court case Cobell v. Babbit. This was the result of compromises with the Microsoft Windows servers. A judge decided to take the whole of the organization down. Should this judge have this much power? Info here on the
indian trust web site. This includes the BLM, USGS and the Park Service. Staggering, really. CD: Hold off on the blaming of MS, it's still not clear.
This would be like the Government sending my tax return in cash -- it's irresposible because anyone could easily open my mailbox and find almost $3 of totally spendible money ready and waiting.
It seems to be that forcing the whole system offline until it's ready for the modern internet was the only responsible course of action here.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Well at least there is one competent judge in the US. Personally this decision makes alot of sense, as in previously posted... if you can't keep confidential information confidential then you shouldn't have the information. All and all a good decision. I wonder how this affects Microsoft? Maybe now their get their collectively large asses moving and fix those damn security issues before each major release so we don't have to go updating to Microsoft Windows Service Pack 143.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
This was the result of compromises with the Microsoft Windows servers
Just wait until it crashes in a couple of weeks and the problem will be solved.
Of course the judge should have this much power.. it's what we called a "check" in civics class. The executive branch is sucking, and nobody could make it stop sucking if the judicial branch had no power.
I'm not trying to troll... do you have another source that says MS Windows was the problem? It doesn't even say what the problem was... it could have been a bunch of passwords set to "password" for all we know.
Yeah, judges should be limited to minor things like imprisoning human beings and deciding how to preserve our fundamental rights. No way should they be able to pull the plug on a bunch of machines.
so a judge cut off a computer network because it housed sensitive data important to particular individuals which was not secure.
whats the problem here? i wish this would happen more often.
I know I ruined my slashdot credibility by actually READING THE ARTICLE, but this applies only to systems that provide access to the Indian Trust data, and its an emergency order designed to protect the people whose data is stored there. This was a "computer infrastructure so easily penetrable that a court investigator and his team of security experts were able to break in and repeatedly access, modify and even create trust data -- all without raising a response from the government." This involves the finances of over 300,000 people, I don't think the judge was out of bounds in ordering it closed.
It may seem a bit extreme to make the ruling so pervasive, but then again that may be the only way to get those brain-dead govt managers to create a real system (like perhaps without MS software to start).
*That's* what I call abuse of power. This strikes me more as steps to help ensure that the carelessness of a dimwitted government agency doesn't end up hurting anyone unnecessarily.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Judges have an incredible amount of power with regards to injunctive relief. It's tempered of course by numerous limitations, and clearly the DOI pissed him off, provoking such an extreme response, but this isn't surprising.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Yes.
A judge can put a person into prison for life or sentence them to death.
Ordering the turning off of all computers that are leaking personal sensitive information (a)the right thing to do amd (b) not nearly as drastic as some other things judges can order.
http://www.thehungersite.com
Yes, absolutely, a Federal Judge should have this much power. It's one of the best checks against the possibility of tyranny.
Since the Executive and Legislative branches of government routinely ignore the U.S. Constitution, it is extremely important that we can count on the check of the Judiciary.
Wikia
...on the indian trust web site...
You'd think they would use apache...
Patrick Cable II
it might be helpful if the person who posts the story actually provides some background info or a link to it. guess i have to go to google myself...
This was the result of compromises with the Microsoft Windows servers.
However, I see no mention of the operating/database that was compromised. Following one of the background links there is reference to an IBM mainframe.
Among the facts omitted was the name of the Denver firm that maintains the IBM computer mainframe for the trust system
Just thought that should be pointed out.
Now the webservers may be IIS but the database being hacked was IBM. Most likely just a poor implementation.
Lots of information is available at the Indian Trust: Cobell v. Norton web site. Press releases plus offical court documents.
Of particular interest is this document, which more fully explains why the judge ordered all Internet access to the Department of Interior. Apparently, court investigators were able to break in and modify lots of important information without any response from the DoI.
Seems like this sets a legal precendence for locking down an entire business, organization, or corporation involved in a legal situation. If it can be demonstrated that it would be possible for an outside entity to modify data crucial to the proceeding of the case (such data would be subpeonaed), the judge can order all external access to that data cut off.
Since simply running a some Microsoft software makes it possible for a large number of outside entities to modify such data without difficulty, and to know that doing so is possible without having to figure it out, I could see this becoming a problem for businesses and organizations that run said Microsoft software.
However, it also means that lax UNIX administrators could have their systems' access cut off if court investigators demonstrate that they are able to get in. Sounds like Mac OS 9 is the best protection against this now.
sweeping action with far-reaching but unclear ramifications
Okay, the dept of interior has leaky systems. That is bad. Very bad. Maybe forcing all their systems offline is the right answer. I don't know.
A judge becoming your CTO at the behest of people making claims against you smells pretty stinky. From what I read, the complainants' investigators claimed to have edited trust records through the Internet. The interior department denied this happened. Who is right?
From now on if a group claims that their personal information is at risk that organization can be forced go entirely offline?
Scary because most judges are not technically competent nore do they have advisors technically competent enough to know who is making sense and who is just talking slick.
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
"In a sweeping action with far-reaching but unclear ramifications, U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth granted the emergency request, which was brought on behalf of 300,000 American Indians whose assets are housed on a computer infrastructure so easily penetrable that a court investigator and his team of security experts were able to break in and repeatedly access, modify and even create trust data -- all without raising a response from the government."
/. wants to see liability extended to the same absurd levels of product and contingent liability that have been demonstrated in the McDonalds and other Python-esque liability cases, BUT...
it's actually well past time for the courts to hold organizations whose systems are busted by 12 year old scriddies running "canned scripts" from Toolz sites
how would you feel if this were your families' or your companie's sensitive and/or private information??? Information about your 502 or your daughter's rape, or your son's juvenille arrest for possessing underage TeleTubbie Pr0n?
"Coupled with the judge's action were criticisms from members of Congress about the security failures. "The GAO told us five years ago that the fund was in shambles," said Rep. Jim Hansen (R-Utah,) chairman of the House Resources Committee, which has jurisdiction over Indian affairs. "Now we learn that a computer security system deployed in 1999 is virtually worthless," he said."
i don't think anyone on
...isn't it about time the direct creators, distributors and managers of dangerously insecure computer systems have at least SOME small legal responsible (and limited accompanying monetary liability)????
If the facts on the Indian Trust website ARE true, DOI (and Congress) have long been aware of the problems and have been ducking the bullet on fixing it...if this were my money/info, I'd sure be upset...
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
Entering via the Internet, the "hackers" found they could break many of the passwords protecting accounts, using a tool called a "cracker." Many of the passwords, according to the report, were easy to guess, particularly one -- "passwd" -- which was frequently used.
This had nothing to do with the fact that they were running IIS, Apache, Joe's Web Server, etc. The issue was weak database passwords.
netcraft shows lots of different OS and servers are being used. The security breach could have been done through anyone of them, or the bad security could've been on the database itself.
... then again, that's not the sort of information they want to make public if the DOI wasn't addressing the problem.
For example :
The site doi.gov is running Lotus-Domino/5.0.8 on NT4/Windows 98.
The site www.den.doi.gov is running Netscape-Enterprise/4.0 on Solaris 8.
The site www.ios.doi.gov is running Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) on unknown.
The site www.doi.gov is running Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) on Solaris
I couldn't spot a document on indiantrust.org which went into technical details either
http://www.thehungersite.com
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Laugh at stupidity: mod idiots +1 Funny.
I work without a contract every day! I prefer to let my work's value set my salary rather than rely on my ability to to obstruct business.
You have to see some truth in the statement that unions only afford more protection to the mediocre worker than they do to the above average worker.
..at least when I check a few minutes ago. And SamSpade is reporting the front-end NPS server is Netscape Enterprise v4.1.
:)
.. why let the facts hamper you?
-'fester
-'fester
Insurance companies do this. I know, because I helped enable one. When you have low-volume, high importance data (like the personal records of Native Americans!!) this approach is justified. I'm not surprised in the least, however, that our underfunded park service wasn't able to hire a government contractor that would take security seriously. We can be as condescending as we like (and we usually are) but if you've ever tried to work through federal procurement procedures, you understand you're dealing with a very limited talent pool.
The site www.doi.gov is running Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) on Solaris.
The site www.blm.gov is running Apache/1.3.22 (Unix) PHP/4.0.6 on unknown.
The site www.nps.gov is running Netscape-Enterprise/4.1 on Solaris.
Oh, and nps is still up....
::taking it seriously:: For archival reasons, assuming the website will be back up at some point (fairly likely, I think).
-Justin
That's enough posting for now lads, there're trolls afoot.
This is what happens when you disobey a lawful order from a judge. Now, the teachers may still be doing the right thing, but if you want to practice civil disobedience, you might end up in the clink.
Judges do not have the luxury of ignoring the law, or just saying "oh well" when people fail to follow their lawful orders. Again, this isn't flamebait...teachers may be doing the right thing by standing up for themselves, but the judge is also doing the right thing in enforcing the law.
But if the credentialing scheme in place depends on Windows frontend servers being secure, you can damn well better bet that it will be dutifully serving up data to the wrong party.
Can't do much about that. I don't perform ANY core business functions on Microsoft server software, their history of getting brutally hacked and denying it is far too pervasive. (Yes, Sun and IBM are terrible too. Frankly, Red Hat and the OpenBSD Project are valuable to me not because they're "perfect", but because they're honest and prompt when they fuck up! I cut both organizations a new check every 6 months of my own free will, NOT because they try and force my company to. The checks come out of my after-tax salary; as far as I know the company has never paid a dime for either project's media.)
The consultants were probably lazy too, but don't get too overzealous to defend the most probable point of entry. I am somewhat less than surprised that a large gov't agency would screw up like this, although most of the dep'ts I work with at least have the sense to retain solid IT security consultants (I've met some very competent Lockheed employees, for example; I have no idea who was at fault in this incident).
Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.
From Netcraft's Survey:
The site www.doi.gov is running Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) on Solaris.
Of course, we don't know whether this was the system which the government investigators broke in, or whether it's something in this domain.
Bush Lies Watch
This is bad. There have been many, many reports and firestorms about these computer systems according to the Special Master's Report released as a court document.
.gov agency has the report detailing their secuirity holes, they left many of them wide open. So much so that Predictive could add bogus accounts and transfer real monies from real accounts into the bogus accounts, get sensitive documents and lots of other mischief. Really bad.
Predictive (the security company) broke in and documented abysmal security -- no firwalls, blank administrator passwords, other stuff that would make any script kiddie drool. The response of the B. of Indian Affairs was "naw, it's not that bad; you cheated".
So Predictive did it again. Got basically the same results. So after the
In classic Dilbertesque style, the Gov blames the messenger, says it's not really that bad (again) and promises to do a whole lot of nothing -- just like it has been doing for 10 years according to the special master's report you can click on here:
http://www.indiantrust.org/documents.cfm
This is bad. Real bad. Sad to say this judicial action was necessary. Sad.
The mismanagement of these trust funds has been a problem for decades. It isn't surprising that a federal judge has to bitchslap the Department of Interior to get their attention. Maybe the government will start to act responsibly if the judge puts some political appointees and senior civil servants in jail for contempt of court .
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Umm... why is there a link to the DoI website if they've been forced off line...?
With permission from U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth, the special master's team logged onto computer servers, accessed databases, broke into Interior and Bureau of Indian Affairs networks, discovered they could modify and erase sensitive data and even created an Individual Indian Money (IIM) trust account in Balaran's name. All of these breaches occured repeatedly and with ease -- and all without being noticed, or even tracked, by the Interior's own computer officials.
Here's a rundown of how it happened.
Predictive originally planned a two-phase test of the Interior's computer infrastructure. First, it would try to access the system from the public Internet; and second, it would test the network from within.
However, the company soon found it could scrap the second phase because protections were non-existent.
"Early on in the testing it became apparent that it was possible to access the sensitive internal data from the Internet and that the internal on-site testing phase was not needed due to the lack of overall perimeter security," Predictive wrote in August after a first round of hacking.
Using widely available, and free, tools employed by hackers all over the world, Predictive tapped into a number of systems the Interior deemed "critical" to bringing its trust duties into the 21st century. These systems included:
Predictive was able to break into a TAAMS server because it had "no password." As a result, the firm could perform administrative, high-level functions typically not available to low-level users.
Also, Predictive could access TAAMS because the BIANET, a BIA network accessible via the Internet, had "blank" passwords. Through this vulnerability, the firm gained administrative powers that allowed it to access data stored in a TAAMS database.
TAAMS is housed on two AS/400 servers, made by IBM, in Addison, Texas. The servers, the database and all its associated logic (coded in dBase) are fully owned by a third party, Applied Terravision Systems, because the Interior failed to consider long-term ownership and development issues.
A so-called "legacy" system in use since 1982, Predictive was able to gain "complete access" to IRMS, which tracks leases and distributes payments to account holders. Weaknesses on the BIANET allowed the firm to see every IRMS account that has ever existed.
Predictive could modify and delete user accounts, meaning it could prevent authorized Interior users from entering the system and give access to non-authorized outsiders.
Further, Predictive gained "complete control" to an IRMS server because it had a "blank" password. The firm was able to copy files and create links to sensitive data to outside networks via standard and highly vulnerable Microsoft Windows capabilities.
IRMS is coded in Cobol 74, an outmoded but pervasive language, and is composed of six databases -- including individual and tribal ownership and leasing data -- that reside on a Unisys Clearpath NX server in Reston, Virginia. Reston is the location of the BIA's Office of Information Resources Management, whose controversial move from Albuquerque, New Mexico, was temporarily halted by Lamberth.
Additionally, Predictive found numerous problems on a number of systems, most of which are not specifically named because information in the report is redacted. The firm was able to access "sensitive" information including "gigabytes" of BIA e-mail, configuration files, log reports, and all usernames and passwords on an unnamed system. Many of these systems had weak password or no password protections.
Certain Interior computers were also running web servers, file transfer programs, remote access servers and other technologies that could allow anonymous access by outsiders. Other systems were prone to well-known hacking techniques, including denial of service, buffer overflows, "Trojan Horse" programs and Microsoft Windows "scripting" attacks -- all of which are typically preventable by applying readily available "patches" to fix security holes.
All of this hacking -- which took place between June 24 and July 8 -- led Predictive to conclude in an August report that the BIA lacks "basic security" measures. "Even if every security vulnerability in this report was corrected, BIA's overall lack of a secure network perimeter would still leave BIA exposed to additional risk," the firm wrote.
Predictive recommended the BIA implement such standard protections as a firewall and intrusion devices. Along with Balaran, the firm informed BIA of the numerous problems at a meeting with Brian Bowker, then-director of OIRM.
Despite Predictive's damaging report, Bowker indicated the company was successful only because he had "turned over the keys to the store." Balaran said he felt Bowker was trying to "discount" the findings, so he again instructed Predictive to break into the system on August 30.
It was during this time that Predictive created a trust account for Balaran, whose report is not specific as to which system was accessed to perform this incredible breach. Predictive was able to create its own trust data and modify existing data on an unnamed system, leading the firm yet again to warn BIA of problems and make a number of specific recommendations to correct the deficiencies.
It works both ways. Thousands of USGS employees have lost access to important web sites like the National Weather Service.
Also, those 7,000 (IIRC) real-time river-monitoring stations aren't available to emergency services managers and other officials who need the data to respond to floods and other natural hazards.
I used to work for the USGS as a student employee in their computer services dept. Lack of security and competent network administration would be too kind for me to say. Stupidity like, each and every government computer has a public ip address, regardless if it is serving up web services. NT4 servers running with service pack four. And worse yet, users with full admin rights on their PCs, installing software and changing settings that could open them up for god knows what.
I'm sympathetic to the Indians. That accounting system has never been fully functional. And a lot of suspicious things, like fires that have destroyed records, have occured over the years to the Indian Trust. I'm heartended to see some positive progress behing made on correcting that horrible situation. The Indians already have it bad enough without this debacle making their plight worse.
However, the judge has done more harm than good by shutting the entire Interior's network access. As you pointed out, the USGS makes available the largest and most comprehensive repositories of geospatial data in the nation, and perhaps the world. Much of this data is free. And many universities, government organizations, and companies use that data; e.g., where do you think Rand-McNally gets its data to make maps?
Though I'm not as familiar with the other DOI departments and bureaus, I know that they, too, provide valuable public services that a number of people need to do their jobs.
Another angle is the impact on DOI employees. I can tell you I witnessed a number of people standing around the halls looking mystified at the USGS' headquarters in Reston this afternoon. We all depend on network access in some capacity to get our work done. In my case, it's crucial as I work with folks at the Mid-Continent Mapping Center in Rolla, Missouri. I was logged into one of their suns debugging some errant code when the plug was pulled. Most aggrivating.
(Initially I had thought that the network was down because of the Goner virus since the USGS has a history of shutting its network down when the system gets swamped by propogating virii and worms.)
MAC | A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
They have a bunch of IBM mainframes, Unisys NX, AS 400 etc. They had troubles with security in 1989 - from the report by Andersen's auditors. They had troubles with ecurity, backups, procedures in 1994.
They are plain lazy fucks.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
This is pretty funny
"BadTimes will make you fall in love with a penguin" - Laika
Bullshit. Constitutional review is a power delegated to the judicial branch. When they come across a "wrong" law (an unconstitutional law), they can declare it void. Now, I don't remember the specifics of the situation (if it was a state law, probably constitutional, or a federal law, pretty much unconsititutional), so I'm not saying anything about this case, but I have to play slashdot-whore and argue with the basis of your argument.
funny munging
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
The District Court's web site has the (redacted) Special Master's Report (PDF) which gives the technical details.
Whoever did the redacting didn't know much about the technology; it's frequently possible to infer what's been removed from context.
After reading the report, I understand why the judge ordered the networks disconnected from the Internet. If I were in his place, I'd have ordered the systems shut down completely.
The report is a case study in gross mismanagement of information systems; this isn't about holes in any vendor's software, but about people who, it seems, simply didn't care about data security or integrity.
This District Court page has copies of the other recent orders in the case, too.
Just as long as we don't hear the President say (also in an Indian-related affair): "Mr. Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it." The judiciary is only as much of a check on the Executive as it is allowed to be.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Indeed, but that is not a question for the judge, it's one for the legislature
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
Varies by state.
Surfing the net and other cliches...
(Who Meta-Meta-Moderates the Meta-Moderators?)
You know.. I just thought of something. There is the WayBack Machine which lets you get past copies of ANY website. Do you think one could get a copy of the DOI and get cached copies of the data, or some such stuff?
One good whore deserves another, I suppose.
The power of judicial review is not "ignoring the law". Judicial review is the power to say that a given law violated the terms of another, "higher" law -- in the US, that's the Constitution. A judge cannot (or at least should not) choose to ignore a law on the basis of "I just don't like it".
The power the judge is exercising in this case, is the ability for a judicial or quasi-judicial authority (ie: a congressional committee) to hold someone in contempt. When one violates the order of a judge in a given situation -- that is, a case is brought before him/her, and in the course of that proceeding orders a certain thing to be done, or not be done -- and that order is violated, they can be held until such time as they satisfy the judge that they will comply, or until suitably punished. Yes, the power of holding someone in contempt is broad, with only the barest hint of restraint (many jurisdictions only allow someone to be held on contempt for a year or less).
This says nothing of the laws themselves -- where one is charged, tried, and formally sentenced to a given term in accordance with the law violated.
Its time to withdraw my $4,000,000,000.12 from my BIA trust account. It seems their servers might get hacked from the internet. Darn /. hackers!
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
I managed to get in before it all went down. I am now officially 3/4 Cherokee and the legitimate owner of South Dakota.
Thank you Microsoft.
-Rothfuss
...And in other news the whole Dept of Interior was taken out a team of Elite HaXors known ownly as "7th Circut District Court". A spokesman for the group commented "Mad Props for da Indian brothers."
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
Actually, that McDonald's case you're so quick to dismiss is exactly like this. McDonald's *knew* that their coffee was far hotter than any competitor's, it knew that it had seriously harmed others, and it knew that the plantiff had originally only asked for her medical expenses to be covered. She was sitting in a car, sure, but it was stationary and she was a passenger, and I think others who were scalded were sitting at tables inside the restaurant.
It was the jury that decided that McDonald's needed to get a strong signal that its ongoing indifference to the harm caused by its actions would no longer be tolerated, and that huge punitive award (which was automatically capped by law, and further reduced on appeal) was an estimate of McDonald's profit on coffee sales for two days. That is hardly a burdensome amount - enough to get your attention, but probably something like $20-$50 for us. On appeal, the award was comparable to the change we can find in our seat cushions.
As for the DoI case, the court is pissed because one of the primary responsibilities of the court and its agents (which include every member of the bar, specifically including the Secretary of the Interior and her legal team) is to preserve evidence. You might get away with hiding evidence, but the fastest way for a lawyer to get disbarred is to get caught disposing of evidence. The government has clearly deliberately destroyed pertinent records in the past, but they've been claiming that's all ancient history that no current employee was involved with. Now we see strong evidence that the government, is indifferent at best, and deliberately trying to facilitate at worst, the destruction of additional records *today* which are required to determine the correct distribution of hundreds of millions or billions of dollars in royalty payments. Of course the judge is pissed -- and if the DoI drags their feet I would expect to see some of the lawyers hauled before disciplinary boards.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
And in one of the finer details of the ruling, the judge ordered Microsoft to be implicated in a story posted to the popular hacker web site Slashdot, which would ensure that the government site would quickly be taken down by a measure known in the hacker community as the Slashdot effect.
--Just the place for a snark!
Past history seems to be that if it is just an "Indian problem", nobody gives a damn about fixing it.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Security does not end on the server platform! It needs to be everwhere, and so there is no place for M$.
Blame the admin and the luser is not going to work here. Others may be slow to cast blame, but I'm willing to bet good money the company with the poorest security record and the biggest ugly mouth is responsible for this mess. Let's hope this display of Federal common sense is catching. I'm really sick of all the BS, "that patch has been available for months", and "lazy sysadmins", and "stupid user should not have double clicked this or that". The judge seems to have seen the results and cared less about why.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
there had been Microsoft stuff in there.
"Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft"...
Then we could say, "Heh, not just fired. Fired, fined and put in jail for incompetence".
Oh, and noticed a link in a post:
http://www.indiantrust.org/documents.cfm
Coldfusion? Oye Veigh...someone needs some serious beatings with a clue stick.
CF is a great app for creating webforms and webDB access, but it is a security hole in its own right (IIRC from people who use it and even love it).
My favorite saying about CF is that it is an excellent benchmark...It runs slow on *everyone's* hardware (that it supports).
Cheers,
Moose.
.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
CD: Hold off on the blaming of MS, it's still not clear.
/., they said it'd help.
Can I still bash Microsoft if I really, really want to?
I just couldn't help blaming Microsoft whenever I see 'Microsoft Windows' in the news roundup. This is something like complusory-anti-microsoft something, I think I've medical clearance to back my action. People in 'Anti-Microsoft Anonymous' recommends me to post in
None of which changes the fact that her lawyer is apparently a total weenie.
And the brethren went away edified.
Methinks you may have twisted this around a bit. Are they being jailed because they won't work under any contract, or because they aren't abiding by their old contract while negotiating a new one?
The link you gave didn't answer that question, only an impassioned "human interest" story. I'd need a heck of a lot more than that to make up my mind on the situation.
Now that much of your work is halted, you should have plenty of resources available to fix the indian database problems. I feel your pain, but screwing up trust funds is a big big no no. Good luck fixing it. I imagine the holes were huge and from many directions for such a big order.
Hopefully, you will get some nice new software for all your desktops, non M$ of course. I mean, how many screen savers running are actually listening for passwords? How many Windoze computers were trusted by the servers? Getting rid of that stuff will be good for you and good for the taxpayers. =:> The world is watching!
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
This is interesting because the college debate topic for NDT/CEDA this year deals with increasing federal control over Indian Country, and these people research voraciously. I suspect a lot of future lawyers will begin to learn about how ridiculous Microsoft is as a result of this, and to think about the ways that policy and software interact (Lessig anyone?)
We'll see.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
If I were affected by this system, I would also be concerned about folks being able to get to data about me that would allow social engineering attacks to occur outside the context of the physical system. This was one of the major types of attacks that Mitnick favored after all. A physical system attack is often only possible after a critical door somewhere has been opened.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
"Actually, that McDonald's case you're so quick to dismiss is exactly like this."
/.'rs are stupid. The DOI/Indian Trust case is about the DOI failing to exercise due diligence in the handling of the Indian Trust, to wit, the irresponsible and deleterious handling of both trust fiduciary assets and confidential trust data on its participants and beneficiaries Its ***NOT*** about Bottom Feeding Contingent Liability Lawyers who are sucking this country dry. I hope the Judge in the DOI case breaks it off at the knee in the DOI.
...the "us" you were talking about. There is NO "McDonald's". The judgement was also paid for by McD's shareholders.
since you seem to be defending a legal system that perceived as rampantly irresponsible by most Americans (in poll after poll*n)...to be precise, i wasn't dismising the McDonald's lawsuit, I was ridiculing it for illustrative purposes.
The DOI/Indian Trust case is not a product/contingent liabilty civil suit, you must think that all
People who support extremely irresponsible and irrational jury decisions, such as the McDonald's case, are costing everybody in America both money and opportunity, here's why:
1."McDonald's profit on coffee sales for two days. That is hardly a burdensome amount - enough to get your attention, but probably something like $20-$50 for us..."
THE SETTLEMENT DIDN'T COST MCDONALD'S ONE NICKEL, IT WAS PAID FOR BY MCDONALD'S ***CUSTOMERS***,
2. By encouraging people like that the person that sued McD, you create a society that values litigation over common sense.
I don't WANT to be on the road with someone who doesn't grasp that "coffee is hot". Like Stella Liebeck. I hope Stella (and her blood sucking attorney) remain objects of ridicule for every day of the rest of their lives. I also don't want to be on the road with someone who can't identify and manage simple threats to their personal safety.
"Consumer" Lawyers (contingent liability bottomfeeders specifically -- there are many lawyers who contribute to society and do great work for the poor and the needy) create an environment that discourages innovation and makes everyone American intelligent enough to grasp the (scalding liquids = personal danger) equation feel like the legal system is a bad joke designed for morons and con-artists.
Liability insurance add huge dollars to the cost of ***EVERY PRODUCT WE BUY***, it adds enormous costs to every startup company that wants to produce a item for public consumption/operation. When I bought my first Honda Interceptor I was trolling through the Owner's Manual and there in 20pt "Liability Lawyer Bold" was an instruction NOT TO DRINK THE BATTERY ACID!
Bob Heinlein used to have some of his literary characters joke that the standard you should have to meet in order to be allowed to reproduce was the ability to grasp and perform rudimentary integral calculus....I wonder what Bob would think about people who had be instructed that "hot coffee is hot" or "don't drink lethal chemicals"?
BONUS ROUND: Last year/b4 in Canada, some poor kid, during finals, had been on a classic "study to you drop" push, after a particular exam (Math???), he went on a drinking binge with his friends, got good and tanked (hadn't had much sleep/food for a coupla days)...sometime, early AM, he went to get a Coke from the dorm vending machine, he didn't have any change, so he shook the machine to loosen a Coke...didn't work too well, the machine fell over and crushed him to death (suffocation)....
his parents are sueing (Coke and the College) for big $$$$, claiming that Coca-Cola hadn't met the Canadian labeling laws for "dangerous machinery", by not providing an instructional label....they parents are angry and grief stricken and some a'hole attorney is looking to collect his 40-50% on their grief...Let's see; drunk, stealing a coke, shaking a several hundred pound vending machine with no one in sight, couldn't get out of the way in time...yeah, sure sounds like Coke's fault to me
.....
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
The "misuse of power" here is that of the executive branch's (i.e, the DOI) total breach of its fiduciary duty to manage, account, and safekeep native american trust funds. This litigation has been going on for years, in both democrat and republican administrations. It goes way beyond mere tech issues; in fact, I recall that entire warehouses of paper documents were basically destroyed and/or quarantined because they were infested with rat droppings and pathogens. Do some googling on this and you'll see that the DOI has nobody but itself to blame and that the executive branch has often left the judicial branch no alternative but to take actions such as this. You'll find many specific instances of neglect by the DOI that are just mind-boggling. Here's a copy of the hearing transcript for starters: http://www.indianz.com/docs/12062001/computeracces s.txt
This isn't about a judge not understanding technology; this is about the DOI failing to uphold its statutory obligations so egregiously that thousands of people have been harmed.
Sorry you got caught in the net there penis but you have to realize that this organization has been ripping off the indian trust for a long time. Gale Norton told lies to this judge (I guess she is so used to telling lies she did not realize she was in court). She will have to stand trial for contempt of court (of course you'd never know this because the conservative media won't report it). The entire interior dept is as irresponsible and unethical as they get these days. All public lands are officially open for raping as well as the indians.
Like I said sorry you got caught in the net there but I don't blame the judge. He was lied to repeatedly and people kept disobeying his rulings. If you ask me he should have thrown the entire lot in jail.
War is necrophilia.
I disagree. The judge could have ruled the law unconstitutional (well it is isn't it?) and let them go. it was in his power to do so. More likely he is a republican and hates unions so he jailed them instead. if he slaps them with felonies then he can prevent them from voting democratic ever again. This is a very powerful tool that republican judges have to further their party BTW. It's one of the reasons you see higher incarceration rates and amongst people more liley to vote democrat.
War is necrophilia.
If the DOI decided to shut down their entire network instead of taking those machines offline, that was their stupid decision.
On the other hand, if security is as lax as it seems, we all have (illegitimate, potential) access to said data. Maybe we'd better disconnect... ;)
You could not be more wrong. The fundamental feeling behind unions goes like this.
1) The management is united and organized and it's in their interest to pay as as little as possible while making us work as much as possible. Unless we organize and stand united we will be victims of cost cutting and abuse.
2) By organizing we can prevent management from arbitrarily firing one us to hire their sister in law.
3) By organizing we can lobby politicians to listen to us instead of them only listening to corporations.
Forming a union is self defense. It's also the absolute best way to piss of a corporation management. When ever they hear the word union veins pop out in their heads and they round up the goon squad. If you ever get pissed off at a corporation try to unionize their employees. It's fun (if a bit dangerous because they might actually try to kill you) and they will definately notice you. Much better then sending them flame email.
War is necrophilia.
Today, before the Senate, John Aschroft, the Attorney General of the United States, stated in plain terms that any criticism of Ashcroft's policies of extrajudicial military tribunals and other suspensions of civil and human rights will help terrorism. (LINK) .
I am not a lawyer. Do not take my words as legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult an attorney.
Some of us have our priorities.
The attentive reader will note that Mr. Jackson suffered one of his most serious historical black eyes following that quote. I hope in this day of 24 hour news, no president would make such a logistical blunder.
Of course, we are talking about the folks who dusted off the Star Chamber and wrapped it in our paranoia. So disregard what I wrote. Time for the aluminum beanies.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
If the article says one thing and reality reflects another, then the article is wrong. I am a USGS contractor (the USGS is part of the DOI) and we were forced to cut our Internet connection at approximately 2:30 this afternoon. We have nothing to do with the BIA. Furthermore, our operations rely very heavily on Internet connectivity (customers order products online and can retrieve them via FTP.) This is going to have a huge negative impact on our facility and our customers, and we are not even remotely related to the BIA (not to mention the fact that we have a very secure and robust firewall.)
Trust me on this one. But if you don't, try to connect to the DOI homepage if you don't believe me. By the time you read this, connectivity may be restored; we were hoping that the court order might be rescinded overnight. But rest assured that as of right now (12:56 AM Central Time) the entire Department of Interior is offline, regardless of what some article says.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
Folks, this is not rocket science. The easiest way to determine if the DOI is on the net or not is to try to connect to the DOI homepage itself. As of this moment (1:00 AM Central time), the entire DOI is off the net. It's not just the BIA or the agencies and sites directly related to it. It's the entire DOI. I am a DOI contractor and I can assure you that our facility (which has nothing to do with the Bureau of Indian Affairs) was most certainly yanked off the net this afternoon, and it remains off the net.
This is really causing pandemonium at our workplace. We cannot access our electronic timesheets because the server is external to our network, and as a result, I've just finished filling out my timesheet from home (because otherwise, it's not going to get done.) The silly part of it is that the facility that I work at has quite robust security, and yet we were still forced offline. This is not an "intelligent decision." This is a knee-jerk reaction that is going to end up inconveniencing a lot of people that have paid a lot of money for Earth science data. It's going to cost the government (and, as a result, you, the taxpayer) a lot of money.
By the time you read this comment, the whole issue may have been rendered moot; there was some hope that the court order might be rescinded overnight. If the order was rescinded and you are able to connect to the above links, then I'm glad (because I'll be able to do my job tomorrow.) But rest assured that the entire DOI lost network connectivity this afternoon. This is judicial idiocy, plain and simple; there is no more diplomatic way to put it.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
To get success, you have to hire just enough good people, pay them well enough that they don't have to worry about the bills, and help them build a success-centered culture. Well-paid people with practically guaranteed jobs who go on strike do not constitute such an organization.
OTOH, when I want money I ask for it, and if I don't get it I go elsewhere if the market lets me. I do not -- and would *never* -- collude with my fellows to put clients/employers in a position where they have to knuckle under to me or go out of business.If those teachers in NJ were truly not being paid enough, they could go into business for themselves and people would line up to pay them better.
I swear, this is the last I'm posting in this thread.
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
OTOH, when I want money I ask for it, and if I don't get it I go elsewhere if the market lets me.
"If the market lets me" is a key part of why teachers need good union representation. Ever try to look for a decent teaching job mid-school year? I can tell you it ain't no fun. There is far less fluidity in the education market than in engineering. What if you only had one window of opportunity to change jobs in any calendar year? That cube would start to feel even more confining than it already does.
Also, you may not be able to move as easily as people in other professions. The market is limited by government regulation. Certification rules vary. Do you need a different license to be a geek in a different state? I didn't think so.
Sig?
Sigue Sigue Sputnik!!!
OK, so Microsoft has a practice of hiring freshly graduated CS majors so they can begin brainwashing them early about what working at a software company is like. Fine. That drains the young'uns of real world programming experience, where inventing five new opaque binary file formats with every program is not OK, nor is obsessing over making Solitaire's shuffling algorithm O(N) instead of O(log(N)) worthy of a semester project for a team of six.
However, Microsoft's insular cluelessness aside, do you really think that the gub-mint Windows sysadmins languishing in some mildewy room in the basement of a federal ofice building are going to know what they're doing? Have you seen government salaries lately? These are the people who convert several 700yd runs of bare-pair phone cable to Ethernet using only a crimper, and wonder why they can't seem to get sustained 10MBps throughput across it. The lucky ones learn on Uncle Sam's dime and move on to a Real Job making Real Money eventually. Others just fester there forever, making technical decisions so horrible that others refuse to believe you when you describe them.
I worked for the government very early in my career. I was definitely clueless, and more importantly, we were insanely understaffed. Microsoft is huge and has "R&D" teams working on stupid crap like vibrating joysticks and general-purpose speech recognition - ever notice that EVERYBODY in your office wears headphones? Now wait until you have to yell at your computer all day just to get work done - meanwhile the government is busily trying to roll out Win95 to the last few field offices that still have 66Mhz Pentiums.
In case you are unclear, I'm saying that monopoly-funded hordes of inexperienced but smart and college-educated Microsofties are more likely to get a code something properly than an overextended handful of unmotivated, underpaid, self-taught recent help-desk graduates are to install it properly.
Do you need a different license to be a geek in a different state?
If you're a professional engineeer, you probably do. I'm in Canada, and a Professional Engineer (P.Eng) must be registered with the provincial Professional Enginners association before he can use the P.Eng title or do professional engineering work.
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
No my friend anyone who effectively claims (A) America is communist and (B) Said communists went backwards in time hundreds of years before communism began to start communism (natural consequence) *IS* a troll. Anyway aparently 5 other people marked him interesting
And conservatives bite anyway.
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
Before every one starts jumping to the conclusion that this judge is completely out of line, consider this: The US Government has a track record of not keeping to agreements with Indians. In addtion, this would not be the first time the DOJ was instrumental in ripping off the Indians. The judge took this action to protect the assets of people whose money was in the Trust. After having their land and all their possessions stolen, they hardly need to have whatever remaining money they currently have stolen, as well. There are many people starving on reservations. The Pine Ridge (Lakota) reservation regularly receives charity from many sources. Knowing all this, and reading the article about the silliness of the DOJs counsel, would it not be better to consider that perhaps the judge is protecting someone?
In addtion, recently, justices have had very little bravery when dealing with large government institutions or corporations. They have deferred to congress with the DMCA and other laws that are arguably unconstitutional and generally not stood for principles against politics. Look at the MS case. As soon as Bush got elected, the case changed to a settlement. So, my question then becomes, should we not applaud a judge for being bold enough to risk a political backlash and actually fight for the underdog (ie. another marginalized group needing protection from the powers that be)? If we do not respect this judge, how can we expect considerations in EFF cases such as the Skylarov (sp?) case?
Consider that.....
Oops I mean .. communists go back in time to start unions.
Point stands tho despite my "leftist" spelling mistake
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
Actually, it's the exact opposite of communism. Under communism, the teachers would be forced by the state to work in exchange for food and shelter.
Under a hardcore libertarian system, these contract-free teachers would be perfectly free to agree with each other not to work. They could continue not working until any conditions they chose were met.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
I remember about a year and a half ago, being called in to do some networking work in a department of a nearby county's office.
I found that the system I was in front of was primarily used to process permits for construction and the like within that county. It was open to the Internet (I did a full, nasty, in-your-face port scan and nobody blinked) and the hard drive was shared - to the world!
I was able to connect to the HD via SAMBA, from my HOME WORKSTATION! I bitched, complained, sent letters. They paid a consultant company something in the 6 figure range to do a "security survey" - and they recommended replacing the POP3 servers with MS Exchange!
I gave up, having other profitable ventures to go for.
But, do you think this doesn't happen like ALL THE TIME?!?!?
People, this is GOVORNMENT!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Firstly I would like to point out that I am do not intend to defend or condemn these teachers with my words here but simpl discuss the merits of laws that ban certain professions to strike.
You can make a case for banning strikes being both ritght and wrong. The case for it being right is that it (in this case) prevents disruption of the function of schools and guarantees that childresn education is not disrupted. That can be a plus. I come from a country where teachers are allowed to strike and my education suffered for it because of frequent strikes.
On the other hand these laws while in a way sensible can and very regularly are massively abused by governments. In my homeland Police officers, unlike teachers, are for example forbidden to strike and the Government has made good use of this situation to be very conservative when it comes to determining Police officers salaries. Conservative to the point where these guys go to the police academy for government funded training only to resign shortly afterwards and go to work for private security companies who pay them very significantly better. The same can be said about Fighter pilots and Military officers in a number of Nato countries who go off to work for Airlines and Construction, Security, Mining, or Oil companies as soon as they are free to do so. So you see these bans on strikes can be a double edged sword.
Like it or not Striking is one of the Workers primary defences against being abused and badly paid be it by governments or industry. You can piss and moan about this being a communist idea but it is really independent of your politican views. Abuse by Governments or Industry canstrike you no matter what part of the political spectrum you occupy.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Imagine you are one of the senior people in the DOI, high enough that its your head on the plate in a contempt hearing. The law says "pull those computers now", but nobody knows which computers that means, or who to ask to find out. Anyway, all you know about computers is how to use Word and Powerpoint on your laptop.
You could issue an order saying "any computer with access to Indian data must be taken down now", but you also know three other things:
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Actually communists only like strikes when
they're against private companies. If anyone
remembers Poland in 1980's for example, its
clear to see that all goverments hate there
employees going on strike, and modern communists
goverments will put these down by brutal force,
something western goverments haven't done for
hundreds of years.
Since any monetary damages would be, well, *your* money, taxpayer money, it's good to see the judge actually do something that makes them uncomfortable.
I've been a government contractor and I know how it is when some PHB (pointy-haired bureaucrat) demands that she be able to access a system without a password. These people need a good bitchslap.
I applaud this.
--
Now can somebody tell me why Native Americans are governed by the Dept. of the Interior as though they were deer or pine trees?
-- My Weblog.
I wouldn't count on this check too much. The U.S. supreme court ruled that $cientology "religious schooling" couldn't be a tax write-off.
The IRS ignored them, and gave one specific religion a sweetheart deal. Up until now, this hasn't generated more than raised eyebrows. (And the tax courts have been brushing off anyone from other religions who wants equal treatment.)
Those checks only work when there's the will to enforce them.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Speaking as somebody married to a state employee, one thing you may not be aware of that while public employees have to pay Social Security tax like everyone else, but are not allowed to collect any benefits. The "theory" is that because public employees have pension funds, if they received social security benefits they would be "double-dipping".
Strictly speaking, they are not paying taxes that somebody else doesn't have to pay, but because they are legally excluded from benefiting from this tax they must save relatively more money towards their retirement than somebody with a private sector pension.
Another thing you probably don't realize if you don't have kids is that in many if not most districts, classroom supply budgets are far too low and teachers have to make up the difference out of their own pockets. Chances are you can get your company to supply you with all the equipment you need, so this is another reason why (in addition to regional differences) that 57K doesn't go as far for a teacher in NJ as it does an engineer in the midwest.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
In cases like these, the law also usually tries to balance off the power given to the employer by requiring that the management of a public agency bargain in "good faith".
This means they must make honest and sincere effort to reach a reasonable bargain. They are not supposed to take advantage of the fact the employees aren't allowed to strike in order to drive a harder bargain, or to prolong the status quo (for example to effectively cut salaries by freezing in pre-inflation figures). Making offers that are purely intended to put the employees in an untenable position is bad faith. Management is obligated to negotiate in a way that realistically will lead to an agreement.
The problem with this theory is that the employers have a simple burden of proof -- it is a matter of objective fact whether the employees are striking or not. On the other hand, the employees have to prove that the political appointees that are negotiating this have no sincere intent to come to a mutual agreement.
Personally, the fact that teachers are willing to go to jail rather than accept management's "offer" is prima facia evidence that management's offer is wildly unrealistic. Either management is incompetent, or it is negotiating in bad faith. if I were the judge, I would take a Solomonic approach: throw them all in jail -- the teachers and the political appointees. Let them out when they have negotiated a contract.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
But to shut down everything?
Couldn't the order have been more narrowly tailored to protect the Indian's trust data without knocking out many important services? The USGS, in particular, provides critical mapping resources used by private industry, state and local governments.
While the DOI may have been recklessly negligent with the Indian data, somehow this smacks of judicial power tripping.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
There needs to be a moderation category of "OT -- but insightful".
Personally, I think it is the government that is screwing the Indians, based on what has been up until recently a widely held racist denigration of Indian rights, followed by indifference and lack of motivation to fix things.
Your view of the American Revolution is absolutely spot-on.
There's a famous portrait of Paul Revere that tells this story, if you know how to read it (see this link). Colonies were there to be sources of raw materials and markets for finished goods for the benefit of politically connected corporations. Revere's holding a silver teapot that he's presumably just made, and he's scratching is jaw as if he's weighing its quality. On the other hand, he's looking the viewer in the eye with a rather pugnacious expression. I think he's weighing the the value of British rule and finding it wanting.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Ok, you're starting to talk about higher laws being required to revoke bad laws. How about this: the International Convention on Human Rights :
In other words, the judge ought to defend their right to be part of a trade union, and to protect the right of that trade union to stand-up for their members
Unfortunately, the US has an extremist far-right government, who considers anyone standing up for the rights of workers to be somehow communist (read sub-human), hence the reason they choose to ignore international human-rights law (see Amnesty International's page on the US for more examples)
Yes, absolutely, a Federal Judge should have this much power. It's one of the best checks against the possibility of tyranny.
Just remember this when some hung over judge from South Dakota orders the whole Internet shut down because, say, it's not all that hard to "repeatedly access, modify, and even create data" for AOL accounts.
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Quite right -- treaties certainly represent a form of "higher" laws that can be used in to consider whether or not a "lower" law should stand. An area where the US Constituion is unclear is how a treaty that might be unconstitional might fit into that.
However, the Convention on Human Right appears to have only been signed by the members of the Council of Europe. I don't necessarily disagree with the document, but it doesn't appear that the US is a signatory. Should we be? Another question -- certainly not a question of current law.
I, of course, won't touch the obvious flamebait about the US an "extremist far-right government" and the rest of that.
That's not exactly true -- a lower court ruling a law or situation unconstitional can be binding, provided the case is not appealed or heard by the Supreme Court, or in fact in the situation of a case being decided by a circuit court, the law is actually unconstitional in the area covered by that circuit.
In normal practice, if the circuits disagree this is one of the primary reasons the Supreme Court agrees to hear a case. A great deal of law is determined constitional or not on the basis of circuit court decisions -- very little actually goes "all the way".
> it's irresposible because anyone could easily open my mailbox and find
> almost $3 of totally spendible money ready and waiting.
But that's not too far from how the government has handled these trust funds--assuming, of course, that the government was supposed to have sent you $3 Billion . . .
The history of mismanagement of these moneys, and the sheer volume of missing records (they don't know how much they're supposed to have had, who it belongs, to, etc.) is shocking, even by banana republic standards. The existence of this case should have scared of Norton from *taking* the job as interior secretary . . .
Add to that that the first rule of litigation is, "don't piss of the judge." They've done that in spacdes. And if you *are* going to piss of a judge with misconduct and feigned ignorance, this is the *last* judge in the united states to do that to . . .
hawk, esq.
Folks, the problem with this ruling is that it affects every single DoI entity. That means thousands of people who depend on real time data such as stream flow measurements, information about volcanoes, earthquakes, and landslides, data on endangered species/migratory birds, and even folks looking for information about National Park status, are left completely out in the cold. The Bureau of Indian Affairs is a very small part of the DoI's operations.
I've seen the faulty accounting system of the BIA up close and personal, and I agree it is completely bogus and needs to be torn down and redone from scratch. But taking the entire DoI off the Internet hurts thousands of people, including many Native Americans, who depend upon data supplied by DoI agencies for making critical decisions. Remember that the DoI includes not only the BIA, but the National Park Service, the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, the US Geological Survey, the Bureau of Land Management, the Minerals Management Service, and several others. Taking all of them offline because of the actions of any one component, even the Secretary of the Interior, is downright irresponsible, and could even endanger the public safety.
Neither (most of) the DoI nor the American public deserve to be treated this way.
> responsible government employees in jail for contempt and malfeasance.
The court is going to consider just that. From the Indian Trust website:If convicted, the principals face fines and possible jail time.
Virg
What he was saying is that 5/7 Cherokee would have been funnier than 3/4, specifically because it's genetically impossible (it would require an ancestor with one or three parents, see).
Virg
.. a company like IBM to take a nice visist and show them the security of Linux and how easy it would be to move there site over to it, and have it back online without the judge getting pissed. (He might be pretty happy)
How can Microsoft *NOT* be blamed ? They created the Windows NT(tm) Swiss cheese security model(tm), who else is to blame ? Serious to medium security holes are being found every single day in MS products.
Are there security holes found in a Linux based app ? Of course, no one is perfect. But, we don't have insaine dead lines, and generally, have some smart developers working on projects, and of course, its open source. Which cuts down on quite a bit, and security issues are cleaned up pretty quickley.
At any rate, I think its time for companys like IBM to start sending out there sales guys to all goverment offices and see what can change.
until (succeed) try { again(); }
Normally, I do not respond to AC posters, however your post dumps so much dis-information into the /. channel, and we don't want to ruin young minds, SO, proceeding with the following assumptions;
/. handle. Which demonstrates that you don't even believe your own lies and that's what causes you to resort to anonymous character assassination
1. That you are either an attorney or have some other close association (due to the fact the garbage that you've spouted is right out of the ABA (American Bar Associaton) Public Relations Handbook)
2. And that you lack either/both the character and integrity to provide even the minimal personal ID of a
I'll deal with just a couple of the most egregious pieces of disinformation you're sprouting.
TO WIT:
"On the other hand, whenever those SAME Americans are called in for jury duty, they're the ones determining the amount of the damages. Funny, eh."
Well, it would be funny if lawyers didn't routine seek to dismiss anyone from a jury with real education, most esp advanced sci/tech degrees or military service, all of which will be routinely be dismissed as potential jurors by preemptory challenges. Best way to get off a jury? Be an average American between 25-55, have some education and pay your bills regularly, You're GONE! SA, The OJ Criminal Jury The 12 Stupidest People in the World
"Furthermore, you're way off-base with regards to contingency fees. First, they're capped in many states, generally around 30%... sometimes less. Second, if a plaintiff doesn't want to pay their lawyer on a contingency basis, they don't have to! It is entirely the choice of the plaintiff. The alternative of course, would be paying up front, but a lot of people couldn't afford that, EVEN THOUGH they have what would otherwise turn out to be successful claims. Third, lawyers assume a risk on contingency: they can easily not get paid at all, should they lose. Or if they don't win enough for their client, they'll wind up losing. (plaintiffs paying on a contingent basis suffer no risk, remember)"
That isn't merely a lie, it's a STINKING lie, by omission. You forgot to mention the "plus expenses" part of that. The nationwide average lawyer's contingency cut is roughly 1/3 of the settlement/judgement PLUS EXPENSES, I believe in the multi-million dollar plus liability cases, it averages to around 42% of the take from their crime. You also forgot to mention that many times the lawyer will loan poor clients living expenses during the trial period, and then charge them MAXIMUM LEGAL INTEREST ON THOSE LIVING EXPENSE LOANS.....can you say, "Shylocking"? Factors don't make as much money.
Also, the cases are not chosen by their merit to either society or a group or by the actual damages done thereto. The cases are chosen by HOW DEEP THE POCKETS OF THE DEFENDANT AND HOW STUPID A JURY CAN BE EMPANELED...anyone reading this can go to Google and Google the publications of the AmericanTrialLawyers association and check out litigation strategies, there and elsewhere on the web.
Although you must remember: one of the GOALS of tort law, which has a lovely history dating back to the better part of a millennium, is to spread costs, and to put costs on those who can bear them. McD's can bear paying the plaintiff's medical expenses FAR better than she can. And McD's customers, should prices have to go up, et al, can bear the very widely spread damages even better.
i'm sure you didn't mean to, but you actually told the truth here (in a sideways fashion)
Corporations DON'T PAY these judgements, these costs are passed right on to their customers (twice, lost tax revenues from deductions from gross income for the Corp lower their taxes). Frivolous product liability suits exist because, lawyers can pick the pockets of EVERY PERSON THAT BUYS THAT PRODUCT/SERVICE of a large natinal/mulitnational corporation, Because they would rather settle a bullshit lawsuit, than HAVE THE BAD PUBLICITY...when anyone but lawyers or the government does this, it's called EXTORTION. It's legal when lawyers do it.
There are many good lawyers doing good work in civil rights, criminal justice and even class action where there is real harm...but the number of bottom feeding, scum-sucking, sub human, ambulance chasers robbing Americans by holding up large corporations on frivolous liability suits is LEGION...people like you, advertently or otherwise, are brainlessly repeating the self-serving lies that these blood suckers use to "ennoble" themselves in the eyes of the uneducated and unsophisticated public (so they can CONTINUE buying their Beemers and luxury homes, of course).
.......
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
Of course it isn't. The idea of the US subscribing to the notion of basic human rights beyond what is in the present Constitution is admirable, and for the most part I support it. I do not hold those who are perhaps more passionate about that incorporation as "crazy".
/real/ extremist far-right government is, and what that really means.
...
But to say the US government is "extremist far-right" was either hyperbole gone awry, or a lack of knowledge of what a
As for the rest -- such as the definition of fascism:
fascism (fshzm)
n.
often Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.
You using this hyperbole of "unholy"ness and extremism is what I meant by calling it flamebait. Your obviously reasonable points got obscured by the idea that George W. Bush is the 2nd coming of Mussolini -- and while I'm no fan, voted for someone else, etc. That is definately not the case.
Ok, I wasn't going to respond to the bits about what the US did after World War II -- I don't see how that has any material impact on what were discussing, and it's obviously not a proud moment in our history. The only defense I could reasonably offer is that people were trying to do what they felt was the right thing. It was a different time. Having said that, and for the record, I'm glad they ended up working for us, rather than working for the Soviet Union. I don't think the Soviets would have but the cream of German scientists in the gulag
About four years ago, I did some network consulting for some folks at the BIA. One of the issues that they were having was (surprise!) security. I made the usual suggestions (firewalls *here*, VPNs *there*, etc, etc).
Guy I was talking to said that this was the kind of stuff that they were trying to do -- but official Department of the Interior security policy was something to the effect of "The people of the United States have paid for all the data on this network. Therefore, any security at all is contrary to our mission. There will be no security." Apparently, this was their reaction to the fact that nobody had any idea exactly what data they had or where it was stored. They didn't want to hear about the BIA's "sensitive" data.
Sheesh!
Note also that the BIA data contains not only the financial and land ownership data, but also extensive medical and genealogical data.
Good riddance. Now, hopefully, they can go back and do it right. Probably, though, they'll just buy a decision from a higher court, or slap a "secure" sticker on the boxes and call them secure.
Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
It is us vs them. The problem is that a lot of "us" don't realize it and most of "them" do. Until "we" wake up to the fact that a war is being waged against "us" and that "we" are losing badly "we" will continue to get our balls in a vice.
War is necrophilia.
"Since when is the 'media' conservative?"
Where have you been man? Here let me deliver you a clue or two.
Bill Clinton lied about where he stuck his cock in a deposition in a civil case. All media outlets covered this lie all day every day. Gale Norton lied about embezzling money from the indians to a judge in a court of law and it gets no coverage anywhere. Not on ABC, CBS, CNN or anywhere. All those pompous republicans on TV yelling about the "rule of law" are absent.
Hillary Clinton convened a "secret" panel when she was working on her health care thing and it was all over the media. Dick Cheney convenes a "secret" panel when deciding the energy policy of the united states and nobody says anything about it.
When Bill Clinton objected to the secret service being deposed it was all over the media but when GW seals off records and says "you will never ever see these" nobody reports it.
I could go on and on but you get the picture. The media is overwhelmingly conservative and overwhelming supportive of everything the republican administration does. Sorry but that's the harsh reality.
As for the indians you rant is silly, stupid and worse of all irrelevant. The topic at hand is not about them losing the war or if they have "dirty politics" (oh yea they are all evil and have dirty politics but we white people are pristine and pure in our politics). It's about the interior dept stealing money from them. The fact that you won the war does not give you the right to steal from them. the fact that they consider anybody to be a member does not give you right to steal money from them. the fact that they are liberal does not give you the right to steal money from them. The fact that they play political games does not give you the right to steal money from them. The fact that you don't like them does not give you a right to steal money from them.
Do you get it now? You do not have the right to steal money from them which is what the interior dept did and what Gale Norton lied to a judge about.
BTW. In the old days anybody who lived with the tribe was by default a member. Anybody who moved away was no longer a member. If they came back they were a member. The whole idea of "blood indians" was imposed on them by white people. It was a strange concept to them but you made them account for their members in this way. Funny how you are complaining about it now.
I guess it's true about republicans. They whine when they lose they whine when they win.
War is necrophilia.
Because captialism for the rich not for the poor. Somebody has to clean the toilets, rake the garden, walk the dogs and raise their children. They sure as hell aint going to.
War is necrophilia.
"LOL. Offering $560k/year for teaching jobs would attract the worst kind of gold-brickers and remittance men."
My god then imagine what kinds of cretins offering 560 million would attract to corporate boards. Oh wait a minute I forget only the rich are allowed to be greedy and pursue higher salaries the poor exist to teach their kids and clean their toilets. God forbid they should try to provide a better life for their own kids.
" OTOH, when I want money I ask for it, and if I don't get it I go elsewhere if the market lets me. I do not -- and would *never* -- collude with my fellows to put clients/employers in a position where they have to knuckle under to me or go out of business."
Apparenty there is no end to your ignorance. Go and read the article you idiot. They are not asking for more money. The school district wants to raise their healthcare premiums by over 100% and they are fighting it. In other words they are fighting to keep their take home pay the school district wants to reduce it. Oddly enough a republican judge is willing to throw them in jail for it too. How nice.
Sorry to inject facts into your delusion there buddy but somebody has to.
War is necrophilia.
I *do* see their point of view. Perhaps they should have done something, perhaps the policy change was unfair. But their response was entirely disproportionate. It was the business equivalent of a preemptive thermonuclear strike. And over what? A piddling sum of money that they would hardly notice. Foolish. It'll be years before they can even civilly discuss compensation again, and they destroyed a lot of public trust and the public will remember when appropriations time rolls around.
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
What reagan did was a billion times more evil and illegal then what clinton did. Clinton lied about the whereabouts his cock. Reagan subverted the US constitution. Nobody in the press called for an impeachment of Reagan yet many many in the press called for Clintons impeachment. I think your examples point out exactly how conservative the media is. They go much harder after democrats then republicans. Look at Condit for god's sake. the man did nothing illegal yet he was dragged out beat up publicly on every freaking channel for months on end. Newt cheated on his wife (this was his third or fourth wife IIRC), he then left his wife when she was dying of cancer for a younger woman. You tell me who commited a greater sin condit or newt? Who got the bigger muckraking? Keep bringing up examples cos I have lots of these on file.
As for the indians I don't see where you are coming from with this "winning a lawsuit" business. The Bureu of Indian affairs (the interior dept) can not account for billions of lost dollars. That money disappeared off the face of this planet. The Indians are suing to get their money back. Gale Norton stood up in front of a judge and lied under oath and in a court of law. So apparently you are talking about something else. Go look into the so called "mis-management" of the interior dept. It looks like somebody embezzled a ton of money and nobody knows where it went. My guess is it ended up in some republican donor's account.
As for enron. The Conservative media will never tell the true story of enron. Not about the failed company, not about the influence of enron on the republican election, not about the influence of enron on Bush after the election, not about the pipeline thtrough afghanistan enron started and then had to stop, and not about enron insisting that the US establish a more stable govt in afghanistan so that the pipeline could be finished.
I got lots of URLs if you want to read about it.
War is necrophilia.
The increase was from 250 per month to over 600 per month. That's a 4,200 pay cut or more like 10% of their salary.
So basically you admit at this point you were full of shit when you claimed they were fighting for higher wages when in fact they were fighting to keep their wages. At least that's some progress. Now...
So according to you any employer ought to reduce anybody's salary by any amount deemed "small" by you and they should just sit there and take it up the ass because it would "destroy public trust". Once again this is typical republican thinking. The economy is only for the benefit of the rich, capitalism of for those who have capital. Let anybody fight for their rights or ask for a raise and they "lose the public trust".
Why should the public trust people who are sheep and roll over?
Why should the public side with those who seek to take money away from families of hard working people?
Why should the public disrespect people who teach in their schools and pay for school supplies with their own money (because republicans like you hate teachers, hate the public education system, chronically and underfund it)?
The public knows much better then the rich about how hard it is to be a teacher in this country. You might not ever talk to a commoner in your gated community but the public interacts with teachers and students every day. They know who is right in this battle and who is wrong.
More then all of that they know that they are next.
War is necrophilia.
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.