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Perception of Linux Among IT Undergrads
iconian writes: "The Linux Journal has a story on IT students and their perception of Linux. One of the funnier myths perceived to be true is that 'Microsoft's technical support is the best in the industry and is superior to that offered by the Linux community.' It just goes to show how little real world experience students have. It's a bit disturbing considering they will be the next generation of technology workers."
I didn't finish my undergrad work yet, and took a job in the linux field. Love linux, hated learning crap MS propoganda in school, so I left... Will finish eventually, but not yet... Enjoying what I do way too much... :)
ps- First Post?
This is my Sig.
Best tech support in the world? #debian and #linpeople on irc.openprojects.net. They correctly diagnosed my problem (use of windows) and helped me get a really nice solution (linux) running.
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
I'm hardly shocked. This is just the next generation of suits that I saw cranked out in the late 90s... mindless Visual Basic drones who couldn't program their way out of a paper bag, the schlocks who got all As but couldn't think on their toes to solve real problems.
;-)
For the most part, we wouldn't hire them to work at the on-campus computer labs. They could never debug problems unless they had the manuals open, and even then... fat chance.
These are the future ineffectual middle-managers, the guys who got into computers because 4 years ago, they were told dot.com was the way to go... oops, sorry kids, no jobs for you! (*)
(*) unless your frat buddies get them for you, but we'll know that's how you got in, and we'll make you pay for it
It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way
Don't get me wrong, I'm no MS lover, but do you REALLY honestly feel Linux has better techsupport than MS products??
Basically, in the past when Ive had a NT/2000 or MSSQL issues I've paid my $200 bucks and got it worked out... everytime. Its not free or fun, but generally MS's paid corporate support is actually quite efficient.
Anytime I've had a Linux issue I have basically been told to RTFM.
The two rules for success are:
1) Never tell them everything you know.
One of my interns at work is a CS undergrad, and I think he's pretty typical of the breed. Talks about Linux all the time to be 'leet, but still gave me a resume done in Word on his pirated Win2K partition.
Schools are a tough nut to crack for OSS, because students have no moral qualms about piracy and a lot of professors demand closed file formats for assignments to be electronically filed.
--saint
>One of the funnier myths perceived to be true is that 'Microsoft's technical support is the best in the industry and is superior to that
>offered by the Linux community.'
While I can not speak to using the pay-per-use support of the Linux Vendors, if you use Microsoft's Incident based support system, It is really really damn good. I have not contacted any other Vendors where you can call w/ a technical support problem and speak to the developers of the application at 11:00 at night.
Please do not flame... I am not saying that the Linux community provides bad support. In terms of free support services, they kick M$ ass.... I am only speaking to my experience w/ Microsoft's Pay-per-incident support....
Come on, guys .. I like Linux just as much as the next guy does, but I would hardly call it a "myth" to say that Microsoft's tech support is far better than anything you'll get with a Linux-based solution. Is it expensive? Sure. Is it cumbersome? Maybe. But at least it's there. Telling somebody to go out and read some FAQ or ask a question to a newsgroup isn't going to do much good, particularly if that person doesn't know what a FAQ or a newsgroup is.
/. reader went to school, we had a background with an Internet that had never heard of the "World Wide Web", we posted to USENET religiously, and many of us were subscribers to the venerable SF-LOVERS list. ;-)
.. this doesn't mean that Microsoft's solutions are any better, just that they're more established.
;-)
Most IT undergrads these days don't know a lot about the Internet (or at least, they don't know a lot about it yet.) These are kids that were born in the mid 1980s, for crying out loud. When the average
The kids these days don't know much beyond Internet Explorer and Visual Basic and all those sorts of things because by and large, they haven't been exposed to the real world yet. Now this doesn't mean they won't be eventually, but at the current time their experience is limited. That aside, I still think we need to consider that the point is valid. Microsoft's tech support is better than anything you'll get with Linux-based solutions
That's okay, it gives us something to work on.
Having just finished my BSc in Computer Science, I've found that those who want real world experience will go out and find it on their own. Formal education is there to assist your learning, not to spoon-feed you.
Alot of the students are at school for the piece of paper, not to learn and enjoy the subject matter. We attempt to filter job applicants based on a "geekiness" scale to help remove those who are not interested in the field.
Beware TPB
Microsoft support can be good. It all depends...
One of the factors is if you're calling them at random, or you have a support aggrement. You ALWAYS pay for support from microsoft. It doesn't come with any product.
THe last place I worked at, we had a microsoft select agreement. Boy is that a deal. (Hahah). We got 150 incedents for $50,000. Sounds crazy, but, it was worth it... To bad we could never use 150 incedents, even if we tried. (150 people in the company, 5 IT people).
The cool thing about the select agreement, is you get a TAM (Technical account manager) that can esclate your call. Plus, he has like 10 customers, so he pays close attention to every case. Its kinda cool when he checks in to see if you were happy with a case.
With a select agreement, you get access to subscriber downloads, which rocks. You can download anything microsoft ever released (Well almost). Wanted to try BOB? go for it. MSDOS 5 in chinese, its there.
Some of thier best support people are in thier exchange support group. The reason being, exchange is a POS that needs alot of attention, and fixing database curruption is a bitch.
-Tripp
Here's a review of how well MS's tech support really works: http://www.bmug.org/news/articles/MSvsPF.html
As somebody that supports a product that runs on both MS and UNIX, I've run into so many techs for whom Microsoft is a religion. They'd rather stretch the limits of running the product on MS, instead of sticking it on a Sun box where it'll crank along, because MS is the only system they know in-house. So the product runs slow... and I look bad. But you can't fault them too much: it's all they know. I blame their CIO for not being more aware of what's going on in the world.
And don't get me started on what a useless certification an MCSE is. It was time wasted for me to get one, and I would maybe pay it passing glance on a candidate's resume if I were hiring someone.
They have the Internet on computers now?
The students felt that "The KDE/GNOME choice confuses most newcomers to Linux."
This is listed by the author as a "clanger", or repeatedly offered mistruth. I wholehartedly agree with him. As an experienced Linux user, I feel that the KDE/GNOME choice does not confuse most newcomers to Linux, it confuses nearly all of them, as well as experienced users. What the students should have said was "the KDE/GNOME choice confuses everybody".
I'm so tired of having to decide which featureset I want to use today. For C++ development I use Kdevelop, because of the nice C++ features like picklists for virtual functions. However I can't stand KDE's tendency to map its' own colors onto my X applications, nor can I take it desktop switching mode, so for casual web browsing I restart in Gnome. This means that I've had to memorize two control panels, two ways of resizing Xterms (I hate both their Xterm replacements), two ways of virtual desktop switching, etc. If there's anything that's important about the desktop metaphor it is that the metaphor must be intuitive. The problem with choice is that it requires you to gain knowledge in order to make an informed decision. To gain knowledge you have to spend time learning. When I pick up a lab instrument I don't want to spend time learning how to use it's desktop; I don't freaking care how it works. I want to use the instrument.
The GNOME/KDE choice is annoying. Honestly I don't care which one goes away, I just wish one of them would.
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
You need to know where to look.
A few weeks ago the Exchange 2000 server decided it was going to roll over and die and to corrupt the mailbox stores with it. We tried restoring (which took 30 minutes to pull off of tape) but it was a no go. When the system state backups didn't fly, we realized we might need to rebuild the server from scratch...
Instead of wasting 2 hours pulling off a stock Win2K Server image and reconfiguring everything, MS support actually referenced a few obscure cases and we had it resolved in about 25 minutes.
A few months before a power surge sporked out a rackmount running Samba on Linux 2.4.x. Fsck laughed at us and we had a LOT of data to pull off too. It was going to take about 3 hours to restore the data from tapes. So we gave IBM a call while we were restoring. Only took about 20 or so minutes to get an answer and back up and running.
Verdict? I don't see any problem with Linux support as long as you have a contract of sorts. I wouldn't dare leave big messes or small disasters to usenet or forums -- for ANY OS. That's fine for configuration quirks, or trying something new on a test server, but when something needs to be fixed and you've tried everything in the run book, you need someone you can rely on.
And for the record, with the exception of a burp each, both the Linux and Windows 2000 servers are humming along without a problem. I have no real preference -- they each do their job and do it well.
I agree. At my old school (mid-sized public school) senior classmates couldn't use the console version of emacs (no mouse manipulatable menu). I have to admit, I'm not a superior emacs user, but I am quite familiar with my editor of choice (vi, well make that vim)
I work for a corporation doing production support for large scale internet systems based on M$ technology. I absolutely agree with the statement "Microsoft technical support is superior". Why?
1) Whenever I have a SERIOUS problem with the guts of something run by microsoft. I have actually had them custom write a fix for me for the OS.
2) At the end of the day, I need someone to strangle. Am I going to go tell the CIO of a Fortune 500 company that some hack coder added something to the kernel that screwed us?
3) I know EXACTLY who to call. Who do I call for a Linux issue? Redhat? IBM? Who did I buy it from? Who is supporting it?
Redhat has done wonders for the industry. But I need ONE vendor to contact for ALL my issues who has deep expertise in all aspects of the software. I can't go to Linuxcare or any third party. I want to be on Linux...but I am running these systems on Sun and M$ for just this reason
Microsoft is increasing prices, the IT sector is having a hard time, but coding and improving opensource software hasn't stopped (Gnome 2.0, KDE 3, Open Office, all major distributions have released or are planning to release new distro's, Mozilla becoming better than sex(r), Evolution 1.0, PostgreSQL (and Mysql, kinda) being a condender to all major databases, and not to forget 2.4.* becoming more stable everyday (okay, it doesn't go okay EVERYday...), and the list goes on and on )
And, besides all these really nice goodies, more and more people are trying out Linux and opensource software. It's becoming more and more mainstream everyday. A whole army of teenagers are experimenting with Linux on a day to day basis. Don't worry about the next generation(r), just wait and see. By the time all you 1-st generation hackers are retiered, Open Source software will be used and known by everyone one on a day to day basis. Server, workstation, embedded, mobile or wearable. ;)
Have a bit of faith
greets, :)
the next generation
This sig is intentionally left blank
You're comparing Microsoft corporate support offerings to random hobbyist support offerings.
Wait, wait, for my next trick, I think I'll compare the support you can get from your 20-year-old son for Windows to a Red Hat corporate support plan.
It would be wiser to compare the support from an actual Linux company, such as Red Hat or IBM, to that of Microsoft.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Of 150 freshmen I had regular contact with in college, there were 3 (including myself) who were really interested in computers. I bet a similar ratio groks Linux (Maybe it'll say in the story once their poor server recovers from its harsh slashdotting.)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I attend the Univ. of RI and I am a CE major. Its nauseaing to see all the incoming freshmen, even sophmores and juniors that have no clue about Unix based OSs in general.
"If anyone had told me back then that getting back to embarrassingly primitive UNIX would be the great hope and investment obsession of the year 2000, merely because it's name was changed to LINUX and its source code was opened up again, I never would have had the stomach or the heart to continue in computer science."
-- Jaron Lanier
Not exactly a fair comparison. In the Microsoft version, you have not narrowed down the problem space at all. In the Linux version, you have narrowed it down to bash.
A better set of problems would be if the windows one was something along the lines of:
The command prompt in NT isn't coming up when someone types Start -> Run -> cmd.exe. Fix it.
... is no one. Not Microsoft, not Sun, not IBM or CA or anybody else. Support for the IT industry from major software vendors is still enourmously lacking in all respects (don't get me started on the hardware folks, who it seems have 1 asshole for every 10 good people and I always get the asshole).
Now, many people will tell you that the reason support sucks is because of the profit "thing". The idea of "1 phone call in and there goes the profit for the shrinkwrap version" is ridiculous given the price of software, but still bandied about by everyone, including Microsoft. The hardware guys of course *can* make this argument since a few calls from granny and her brand new Gateway seriously cuts into the company's already strenuously thin margin.
Having said that, I can't agree with the assertions made by the distinguished submitter of this article (never mind that I don't really care what IT undergrads think). Microsoft's tech support, at the consumer level, sucks. But then so does IBM's and Oracle's and, for that matter, RedHat.
At the more advanced (and expensive) level, Microsoft support changes dramatically and becomes actually very good. Surprisingly good, even. My experience with 2nd and 3rd tier Oracle and IBM (software) support also confirms this. I only have consumer-level experience with RedHat (the first and last box I ever bought from them before I started downloading ISOs myself), and it sucked. Can anybody comment on the quality of high-level support from them or some other "we don't sell but we service" Linux/OSS companies?
I'm sure there are as many "he told me to RTFM" stories from users in both sides of the fence.
I know of one Govt department that hires an MCSE full time to literally wander round the site, rebooting NT boxes... Ive always said, the smart IT grads, are the ones that realise they dont know shit....
I completely disagree.
I have been teaching classes at a local college for six years and my experience has been completely different. A majority of the students in my evening and weekend classes are "working stiffs," but many of these "working stiffs" are working in CS fields and are more knowledgable than the whiny brats in my daytime classes that are attending school and are funded by the "Bank of Daddy."
Age doesn't necessarily determine whether or not someone understands and uses *nix or the "other operating systems." The "working stiffs" in my evening and weekend classes tended to have more practical experience in computer science, including more exposure to a wider variety of operating systems, than their daytime counterparts.
When I teach evening classes, I am used to people being able to follow along when I use Vim and Cygwin so that I can feel at home and productive in the school-mandated MS OS. My first daytime class was an eye opener! I spent WAY too much time explaining that ls is the same as dir (except better), that less is type (but with functionality), etc. At first, the blank stare "deer-in-the-headlights" looks that I got when I didn't explain such things surprised me. Then I realized that a majority of my day students seemed to care more about their grade than about the quality of the education they were receiving.
Yes, there are generalizations in what I have typed, but after my second daytime class, I vowed never to teach another class between 8am and 5pm.
.sig wanted. Inquire within.
This is one more reason people turn to Windows instead of Linux: The uber-geek egotistical superiority complex of the loudest Linux users. And unfortunately, the loudest are the ones who get heard.
Do you even realize what you just wrote? You completely discounted about about 7 years worth of students (assuming "late 90s" includes 1995 forward). Well guess what? I graduated in the "late 90s" and I was in love with UNIX. And it was taught to me by others who would also graduate in the "late 90s". They taught me about all kinds of flavors (FreeBSD, Solaris, Irix, HP-UX, and Ultrix to name a few). And yes, even Linux (I popped my cherry on Slackware).
I think we can all agree, each class has those who exceed, those who do just enough to pass, and those who suck. Those who suck are probably too lazy to learn Visual Basic, so screw them. Those who do just enough to pass might not be "Uber-Geeks", but they'll get jobs doing the easier work, and get paid handsomely for it. Good for them. They probably don't want to work in your on-campus lab anyway, since you sound about as friendly and willing to teach as the BOFH.
As for those who exceed... let's just hope they can work their magic without being as jaded and biased as you seem to be.
-FF
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
What the hell isn't running? Possibly a trashed library? What the hell is that?
How about: You have a computer, it didn't do what you want. Possibly there is some problem inside the case. OK, fix it!
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
COuple of times we were working under NT trying to get a web application out the door and called per-incident support. I was told in one case 'we don't support that' and in another 'it'll be fixed in the next service pack', the service pack being months down the road. We had customers hounding us to get the product shipped and MS left us twisting in the wind. I would much rather have to RTFM or hack a code base, because it will be done as a *high* priority project.
That's when I really started to dislike billg.
my $.02
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Cause we _know_ the OS. Dang, I'm about 9% of the way through a personal Linux kernel code audit, all by myself. Then I'll start on "lilo" and then I think I'll hit "init". Before I'm dead I might get to "ls". I don't even have the time to call any support. And to think, Windows, that Intuitive User Experience, requires tech suppport? Ha!
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
I have a different version of "day" and "night" students...the day students are those who were mentioned earlier (just in it since they thought they could make money out of it...), they know nothing and end up dropping out. The night students are those who actually know how to program and know how to make a computer work. These are the ones you want to ask.
If you smell what The Ranj is cookin!
Next they'll be telling us the virtues of AOL
Hey, don't bash AOL! After all, "AOL *IS* the Internet!" They said it on their commercials, so it *must* be true!
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
I'd have to say SUN support followed very closely by Digital (a compaq co.). M$ onsite contractors are really good as well, but the MSDN support we get while it does usually find the answer is rife with administrative roadblocks and hoops that M$ makes you jump thru to get support you've already payed for. The absolute WORST support I've had is COMPAQ desktop support, the tech's showing up had no clue about the problem we'd reported, showed up with wrong parts more than half the time. STK has a good service staff as well....
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
OK, make it an assignment:
Write a paper documenting the differences between Windows 2000 commands and UNIX commands: ls/dir, cd, etc.
Install an alternative UNIX: FreeBSD or Linux . Write an essay on the differences between installing i386 UNIX and Windows.
Then give them CDs. Make it 25% of the quarter grade, and give 'em a week.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
I like it when I ask a question (almost any question), and I get "RTFM" in response (sometimes with "luser" appended).
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
MCSE = Minesweeper Consultant / Solitare Expert
Here at Iowa State University, linux is perceived as the god of all operating systems. More students are fed up with Microsoft and their holes, and even more faculty and staff, as well as departments, are following right along. Unfortunately, ISU signed off on a Microsoft campus agreement making linux on the average desktop a no-go, but most students who work in IT-related fields are installing linux. The Ames Area Free Unix Group for Information Technology (AAFUGIT) is rapidly growing and there is an increase in newby questions.
I think the sample for this census should've been expanded to more Universities/colleges. Perhaps the places where this is really a problem is places like Vatterott and DeVry and what not, where people are trained to do a particular thing and not the science behind it. Anyway with a decent background in computer hardware and software can't deny the power of linux. As I've told many people I've converted, "if you really want to learn networking and what-not, you can't learn by clicking a few buttons (like in Windows) - you have to go to the source...in a matter of speaking."
Does it mean 'fix it for meeeeee! wah!'? If so, Microsoft stomps the hell out of Linux. Their whole _concept_, including for developers (see Visual Basic), is for there to be inner circles and outer circles, in a centralised authority structure. You can have teams of Microsoft insiders working themselves into ulcers for you if you need it- you do NOT get control, ownership of the product, or the final say. Guys like Ballmer expend HUGE effort into making sure the MS insiders ARE still willing to sweat blood to assist J. Random Developer (i.e. hold their hand, wipe their nose, fix their problem). If not for this huge effort ('developers developers developers developers!'), you would be unimaginably screwed dealing with them. The dependency relationship is based on an immense effort on Microsoft's behalf to be the caretaker.
They could stop at any time (Ballmer dies, new CEO is bean counter or something) and it's worth considering just HOW hard Ballmer tries to keep the monolith centered on the needs of certain customers. HE knows that the natural reaction is to screw the customer, get lazy and stop providing good service since you've got them locked down anyhow.
By comparison, if 'technical support' means 'give me the power to do it myself', it's tough to beat Linux, simply because you can get ownership of so much (for all practical coding purposes). For many projects it's easy to get full disclosure of source code. You get to fork off versions if you have a need- you get to incorporate other people's stuff into yours if you follow the licensing rules- there's no 'inner circle' to it at all, and so people get snippy if asked to behave like they are an inner circle. It's 'RTFM' because they know you have just as much capacity to fully acquaint yourself with the situation as they have- and they are not hired to help you, they produce things and you can TAKE them and HAVE them to do with as you will, again with full disclosure. The idea is to take advantage of that.
The interesting comparison here is that this time, if anything drastic happens to Linux, your ownership of your parts of it, and your access to information and your effectiveness, are quite unchanged. It's not a dependency relationship, more like a forced self-sufficiency relationship. You get no support in dependency, but you get resources for self-sufficiency (including legal ones- the licensing) that you flat cannot get from Microsoft.
The question becomes, what sorts of programmers are more relevant and useful to the world? Ones that seek dependency relationships, or ones that seek self-sufficiency relationships? I think there's something to be said for each, but you're a hell of a lot more likely to find cutting edge stuff in the latter camp- which will be pretty unpolished, but that's normal for innovation.
You'll find less innovative software coming out of the dependency camp.
they are not representitive of future techies...the are probably a good cross section of the up and coming clueless middle manager who will directly influence money decisions. I have a tendency to agree, in general, not person specific, that IT is a huge group of (L)user in the making.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Huh. A few years ago I had a problem with Windows NT 4 where it was sometimes having trouble exchanging packets with other machines on the local network. Finally broke down and called the Microsoft pay-per-incident line, and after an hour or so of trying things, the guy had me remove and reinstall the TCP/IP stack, which solved the problem. I asked what he thought might have been the issue, and he said " Oh, it does that sometimes. "
Now, in all fairness, they may have gotten better since then, and I've heard good things technically (leaving aside ethically and morally) about their more modern offerings. But I've always thought "Windows: it does that sometimes" made a pretty good slogan.
My university (one of the top in the US, supposedly) just started teaching the intro CS class (for non-coders) using C#. Why? God only knows. They used to teach it in Java- they switched from Pascal very early on, which was probably a bad choice. But now Java is superbly well-documented, and becoming an industry standard. C# may become an industry standard, but only because MS is behind it. So now that course is essentially Windows-only. (The standard data structures and systems programming courses are, of course, still done on Unix- by now, of course, in the form of RedHat 7)
There are quite a few people who push Linux as the best and only solution. These people are dorks. However, most of us react more strongly to MS products being pushed as the best and only solutions because:
- MS software pricing is an obscenity.
- Linux companies haven't used illegal coercion to make their products the market leaders.
- Until recently, people did not choose Linux-based solutions simply because they had the word "Linux" in them.
- the possibility of single-vendor lock-in is virtually nonexistent for Linux.
I work part-time in tech support here, and I cannot tell you how annoying it is to have to deal with all the Microsoft fanboys who think Windows is the final point in computing evolution. These are techincally astute students, among the brightest in the world, and incapable of dealing with anything that doesn't have the Start menu and Explorer. For my part, I'm glad I'm studying computational biology, where MS products are by and large recognized as utter garbage. If Windows ever becomes the platform of choice for serious scientific computing, I'm going to law school instead.
I think its more down to the motivation of todays students. In the old days people were forced to use command lines and if you came across a problem you used any reference material you could find to get the problem solved. Now days most windows faults can be solved by just a few clicks of a mouse and if that doesn't work, in goes the remaster cd. If they can do the job without having to learn very much then why bother learning dos. Its not very suprising that most students don't use linux....they is indeed a GUI but to get it working perfectly you need to start tinkering under the bonet.
;-)
IMHO
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
The accounting department was creating some huge Excel spreadsheets, on the order of 50M files with pivot tables, cross references, innumerable worksheet links, etc.. It would crash about half the time when working with it. After spending some time chatting with a friendly rep (who mentioned that he was buying a ranch in the Caribbean when he retired), we sent a sanitized version of the file to them and had it fixed within a couple hours. It was due to a coding problem in the spreadsheet itself. This was not an Excel bug, but one the company had created. We did go through the upgrade and reinstall routine first, but that was OK, considering that it was needed anyway. They pointed out the coding errors, offered suggestions, and fixed the code.
The other problem didn't have such a rosy outcome. Every two weeks our Oracle/NT4 server would crash. After speaking to Oracle and MS for about a month, both of them pointing fingers at the other, the "solution" provided was that the server must be rebooted every two weeks to prevent the problem. So we tried using the other supported configuration, namely a SQL Server backend. That was a mistake. Resource needs ballooned and response time was doubled. From numerous chats with their tech support, it appears that the only supported configuration was the state just right after the install. They were not responsible if other applications were loaded. Imagine that! I suppose that's why they've decided to bundle everything -- too many people were pissed off that third-party applications were not supported. I.e., the OS could not be held responsible if anything else but it was installed.
Of course, we had an enterprise support contract so had dedicate MS resources. Forget trying to get the same treatment with your home Windows machine. I've tried. I have a Toshiba laptop and was bounced back and forth between their support desks when the modem wouldn't work. Each desk blamed the other. The funny thing is, even though this is a Lucent WinModem (i.e., needs special drivers to work), I was able to get it running under Linux before Windows.
As for Linux, support is usually pretty good. I frequent the comp.os.linux.misc groups and see that most questions are quickly answered, including the daily "how do I telnet as root" stuff that's answered in every FAQ. There are even answers for the bizarre usages of Linux in bizarre situations. The *main* problem is that sometimes legitimate questions are not answered because no one knows how to answer them. With *paid* enterprise support (i.e., redhat, caldera) even the questions that don't interest the tech/help desk staff will ultimately get answered as the ticket gets elevated. There's no such mechanism on the newsgroups though.
My conclusions? Linux and Microsoft home/desktop users can expect about the same level of response, except that Linux support is free. For the enterprise customer, Microsoft can be great or can be poor, but you pay a lot of money regardless. My one RedHat problem (a Compaq Prosignia related issue with RAID) was answered pretty quickly.
It's easy to get confused about Linux distros if you're on the outside looking in. You've got different versions of the kernel and different distros of the OS with different versions of each distro.
One thing that Microsoft definately has is better marketing, which translates into a better understanding of what versions of their products are current, and which ones are outdated.
What's more current, RedHat 7.2, Slackware 8.0, SUSE 6.4 or Debian 2.2? What kernels do each of these distros ship with, and what's the latest kernel any of them can reasonably run?
No, it's not hard to figure out which Linux distro is the latest and has whatever features you require. It does take time, though, and patience if you're new to Linux. Microsoft removes the time and thought required to shop and support their products (or at least, that's the rumor).
"It take 9 months to bear a child, no matter how many women you assign to the job."
Many (in fact most) programs aren't written with the intent to sell them. Most are written to be used in-house by the company who sponsored their development. In this scenario, open source is a win-win situation, because (a) you are able to use and customize already-written code, which saves you lots of time, and (b) because later on others will be able to use your code, saving them time. You'll get your "cold hard" cash anyway, since your company is paying to make stuff work, not to write new code. Forcing everyone to rewrite the same code ultimately helps no one.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
I was really disappointed with this article. I was hoping that the author would explain some ways that Linux could fight the "only-for-geeks" perception. Perhaps he would even have a suggestion for how we could introduce Linux more easily to junior system administrators!
But no, he lists the (common, cliched) reasons that Linux isn't fit for the desktop, and then goes on to deny them, point by point. He then throws in a little Microsoft-bashing, which makes the article seem less like a helpful "Where do we go from here?" and more like a "Linux rocks; I don't understand why everyone isn't using it" rant.
Case in point: He cites the "infamous reliability" of Windows, then says: "it has become okay for a PC (running Windows) to crash once a day (or more often)." Since when? And since when does a non-9x OS from Microsoft crash more than once a day? I run Windows 2000, and it doesn't crash. If it crashes, it's a hardware problem. Applications crash, sure. But no one has yet solved the application crash problem. Windows NT and XP have about the same reliability. Uptimes of 5-100 days (which I have seen with Windows 2000) are perfectly fine for workstations, most of which get turned off at the end of the day, regardless. As much as I hate some of the features in Windows XP, I am still encouraging people to upgrade to it if they use a 9x-based OS. Folks, no computer should crash more than once a week, and you don't have to run around saying "Use Linux" if you want that type of reliability.
The author then goes on to quote students who say "Linux is seen as a geek's OS. Programmers love it and that puts everyone else off." But instead of explaining how Linux can be more friendly to non-technical users, he cites the "anti-Linux FUD campaign coming out of Redmond". Microsoft or no Microsoft, Linux vendors and programmers are just now realizing that ease-of-use matters, even to technical professionals. Instead of addressing this need in his article, he points fingers at Microsoft, which isn't productive.
One final comment which really irked me was his response to the following complaint: "The Linux command line is hard to learn and use." He responds with "No, it simply is not." How does this comment address the real issue? If your students feel that the command line is hard to use, give them a training manual. Better yet, sit down with them and explain that the command line may have a steeper learning curve, but show them how much more powerful it is!
Let's be honest: there is a lot of FUD in the computer world, made worse by those who think they know what they are talking about. "Windoze crashes constantly. Linux is too hard to use." Instead of regurgitating the same old excuses, let's figure out how to work with these problems. Fight FUD with education, not with more mindless flaming of the supposed "enemy". If your friend says that the command line is too hard to use, don't blow him or her off and say "No it isn't! See, all you have to do is pipe it to wc -g." Instead, sit down, start from the beginning, and explain the benefits of your method of working!
That is what the author should have done with his students.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
The Windows brandname is as strong as Coca-Cola, but the Coca-Cola brandname didn't stop Pepsi from having a go (and doing quite well, too).
Erm. I think you're thinking of RC Cola, which isn't doing quite so hot. Pepsi is more like the MacOS of the soda world.
What color is the sky on your world?
With linux as a casual user, all you need to do is post your question to a newsgroup or, better yet, a mailing list, and within a few hours you will have one or more answers to correct your problem. This doesn't happen with windoze support. For windoze support, you have to PAY$$ and then go through multiple levels of clueless idiots on the phone, none of them know ANYTHING (some may actually believe that having an MSCE certificate actually means something or means that you actually know what you are doing...NOT!). By the time you actually get to someone who knows anything, it may be days later. That is the real world.
If you want more than many thousands of users on various lists or newsgroups, many of whom actually KNOW what they are talking about, then you can pay for support from RedHat or even Mandrake (probably some of the others too but I do not have experience with the others). The person you get on the phone is CERTAIN to know what he/she is talking about - will NOT be some clueless drone they pulled off the street so they could earn candy-buying money. You will have your answer post haste, not later in the week.
That is the real world. I have personally known some of the clowns that pass for M$ tech support people. I literally know more than they do about that retarded OS and I'm a piddly know-nothing on windoze.
M$ happily takes your money to provide support and then passes you through dolts and idiots for hours and even days before someone with a clue ever gets to you.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
These are not the system administrators or NASA programmers of tomorrow. They're getting a 2-year tech degree and then they'll be on the news bitching about how there are no good jobs in IT.
I see a lot of posts here claiming new students only know about AOL, MSN, Office XP, etc. Can you blame them? When Mom and Dad by them their new Dell Optiplex GX150 with a TFT display, does it come with Linux on it? Of course not.
.doc files). If other colleges start creating policies like this, that might just cut down on the Microsoft-centric atmosphere.
When I first came to MIT, I knew about Windows and MS Office. That was it. Was I criticized for running Windows? Was I sneered at by zekr1t n1Nj@ Haxxor dudez who were running Linux or NetBSD? No. Instead, someone suggested (nicely; not by saying "Try running a _real_ OS") that I give Linux a try - If I didn't like it, I didn't have to boot into it, and I would only have lost 300MB of hard drive space (those were the days). I was given a RedHat 4.0 network boot disk and the IP address of an NFS server, and I installed Linux. My friends were willing to help me learn things, and give me pointers. There is a community mailing list that people who use Linux can subscribe to and get their questions answered by other members of the community who've been using Linux for much longer. The people on this list didn't get annoyed or flame if you asked dumb questions, nor did they gve you snide "MS sux" remarks if you inquired how to mount a Windows partition in Linux. Because of that environment, I am now a competent Linux user, administrator, and halfway decent developer. You can't expect students to rise to that level if you only offer criticism.
And can you blame students for using MS Office formats to exchange files? The media rarely mentions Linux without saying "hackers" and "computer crime" in the same sentence. Ignorant website developers and system adminsitrators think Microsoft Office is the only answer. I've even encountered people here at MIT who refuse to accept PDF documents, saying that they don't want to deal with the extra effort required to open them. (Who hasn't heard of Acrobat Reader?) In order for this bias to change, colleges need to foster an environment in which Microsoft Office is not the only format for exhanging documents. The campus computing environment here runs on a variety of platforms, including Solaris, IRIX, and Linux, so by default all course-related documents have to be in a format accessible from all platforms. This is accepted for the most part, and materials appear in HTML, PDF, and PostScript (though StarOffice has given some people an excuse to distribute
Education is a key point in this topic, and colleges are a good place to start. I would venture to say that the majority of college students who only use Windows do so not because of choice, but because they are unaware of the alternatives, or because the alternatives seem daunting and unnecessary. These perceptions have to change before more college students will start using Linux.
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
Or how about :
Your windows computer will not boot to the desktop.
Instead it shows a blue screen with "Windows Protection Error: you need to restart your computer." - Fix it.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
I think that may change in time as teachers are faced with paying licence charges to keep current or moving to open source. On the other hand, MS probably values the education sector enough to continue to cut a lot of slack.
Given the sort of Campus Agreements MS is willing to give, I find that unlikely. Sure, it costs the college I work for slightly less than my salary to handle all of the licensing for MS products. But it would take more than one entry-level employee to convert the entire campus to another platform.
My boss is continually reminding us that Lotus used to have really severe licensing like this, and look what happened to them. Sort of a Moses vibe to those rants, really.
--saint
while 90% of the students arguments where false it is important to note that they:
1 - Don't have any exposure to non-MS technology
2 - Beleive everything they read in MS PR
3 - Beleive that crashes and unreliability is a fact of life and unavoidable.
4 - Are unaware of goings on in the rest of the computer world.
And these are the people who are supposed to be our future computer experts and are more knowledgable than the common joes. God help us all.
'Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson...'
OK, make it an assignment:
:)
Install an alternative UNIX: FreeBSD or Linux . Write an essay on the differences between installing i386 UNIX and Windows.
My UNIX Install experience.
For my project I decided to install a Linux. First of all,I missed class so I didn't get the CD. So I went to a bunch of warez sites to look for it to download, but I couldn't find it. My friend says you can get it for free, but who knows what he's been smoking. I mean you don't just GIVE an operating system away for free you know? Eventually I got a couple CD's from a friend of a friend. It then asks a bunch of complicated questions about "partitions" and stuff, so I just hit enter or okay for everything. I didn't see any C: drive mentioned, so I don't even know if it installed on the computer (but I think it did because it started). So anyway, I got it to start, but in order to see my desktop, I have to configure some file because the resolution is all messed up or something and Xwindows won't start. A friend of a friend told me where the file was to configure it, but I guess I have to use this program called V.I. to edit it. Well the program must have been broken or something because it wouldn't let me enter anything. I mean you press some keys and the cursor jumps around, and sometimes it deletes stuff. Since I couldn't get it to work I shut off the computer. I can't find my Windows 98SE CD, so I think my computer is broken....
and Yes, this is flaimbait
Most of Microsoft's support is outsourced to companies like "Stream". You have to get past the initial levels of support to get to anyone who actually works for Microsoft.
Stream has a VERY bad reputation. Unless the customer demands it, they hire and train just about anyone. They are kept to very strict call times, which insures the customer has to call back if the solution did not work.
Most of the times I have dealt with Microsoft support, the standard "solution" is to reinstall the OS. (So much for all your system settings and preferences! If you use Kai texture explorer, you lose all your saved textures as well.)
I ask anyone who thinks that Microsoft has good support just how many times they had to call them and why.
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
"If you want more than many thousands of users on various lists or newsgroups, many of whom actually KNOW what they are talking about, then you can pay for support from RedHat or even Mandrake"
and
If you want more than many thousands of users on various [Microsoft] lists or newsgroups, many of whom actually KNOW what they are talking about, then you can pay for support from [Microsoft].
This situation is IDENTICAL. Just because YOU'VE never actually looked at a Microsoft news group or private support list doesn't mean they don't exist.
Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
Hi! I'm a CS student at a college in Brussels(Belgium). Every student here knows about *nix and has experience with it: it's one of the prerequisites for a few courses.
...
If students aren't interested in computer science and all aspects concerning it, it is probably the fault of the college where they are studying. It's very important to get a lot of hands-on experience that can be translated to the "real world" and I must admit that at a lot of places, this is left out in the courses.
But saying that anybody who can code and is interested in computers can replace computer scientists is wrong: there are a lot of things that a decent education provides like formal languages, computability theory, algorithmical complexity, good design, clean coding, etc
There is nothing inherently wrong with all Linux desktop GUIs looking the same, is there?
Well, hell yes there is! More is better. Don't like to think too much about things, just pick one you like and use it. If you don't want to confuse your poor delicate users, pick one for them. I like window maker. Is he telling me that I to use Enlightenment, configured just so by Red Hat?
As is probably the theme at the majority of third-level educational establishments, student's exposure to OS technology at the Institute of Technology, Carlow is Microsoft-focused and desktop-based. ...
"nearly everyone who used Linux last year went on to fail their project". It came out that a number of individuals were missing from the final year due to failing the project element in year three. When I probed for the root cause of the project-failing problem, I got my second shock: "Linux is too hard to install". I was shocked not because these two statements were necessarily false but because these 31 students had pretty much convinced themselves that success was tied to Microsoft and failure to Linux.
Sounds like Carlo is cramming stuff down on their students. Even the author has his own load to cram, as cited above, despite his own awareness. I can imagine those students who failed did so because their project was not Wine, or could not write to NTFS, or make appointments on an Exchange server. It's hard to believe that students going to extra effort would all fail if the teachers had useful projects that taught real computer science concepts rather than procuct familiarization.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
There is quite a problem with the active linux users thinking that they are almighty and superior. Personally I use both windows and linux and I have no problem answering questions for either OS. Both are a complete pain in the ass to use.
If you have a problem with windows, you can call up your neighborhood 14 year old and get the problem fixed with a pepsi, if you have a problem with linux ... you can _try_ to get a support package or find a local lug to help you out, but that's not as conforting.
The only thing keeping Linux alive right now is LUG's and their support for newbies. I have found that even inside LUG's you will find the egotistical types who want the user to "Learn on their own". My only problem with telling them to learn on their own is the simple fact that if they're question is "I don't have man pages installed what do I do" ... and you answer RTFM ... you just lost another linux user and their influence on other users.
For every one user you convert to linux ... they will convert three more ... it works for drugs and religions ... so be it ... it will work for linux.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
At first I thought this should be under the "It's Funny, Laugh" category. Then, I read the article. Now I'm positive it should be under the "It's Sad, Cry" category.
Part of me is glad I didn't go to a 4-year school.
The fact that Redmond and Cupertino engineers have already ported (most of) the Office technology to Mac OS X indicates that a port to the X Window System would not be too difficult.
He should add this to his 'clanger' section.
The ease of porting Office to OS X has nothing to do with the ease of porting Office to X Windows. Microsoft has had a version of Office on Mac for years. The OS X environment has two sets of APIs for programmers: Carbon and Cocoa. Cocoa is the native OS X set of APIs. Carbon is a translation layer that maps the APIs from Mac OS 9 and below to the correct function calls on OS X.
The ease of porting Office to OS X is due to the engineers at Apple who created OS X.
Fight FUD with FUD!
J.J.
The last time I had a terrible dilemma with the choice of a user interface was when I chose bash over ksh.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
My perception is somewhat similar. But, from what I've seen of the students with these amoral views, trying to look 1337, is that they generally mature, or they crack and become business majors or MCSE's.
Closed file formats are a big problem, and I don't think some profs realize what they are doing. Generally there are way's around this type of crap if you want to put forth the effort: My CS prof asked that all projects be turned in as Window's EXE's. My solution was to install linux mingw32 and setup wine, but I could have just as easily borrowed someone's W2K setup disks, and got a copy VC++. Need a .doc file? Use staroffice. Unsure of the results? Check it in the lab.
------ 24.5% slashdot pure
When I first went to college in the early 90s I was a Mac zealot on a then-Mac-dominated campus (no longer, sadly). I had a number of friends who were serious DOS junkies and considered things like "customizeable memory managers" (not that you would want to, but HAD to) a good thing.
This just brings back such memories...
/Brian
since when has there ever been a *nix problem you cant find the answer to on dejanews?
Except that on Windows if you reinstall the original libraries from the Windows disks, you've likely wiped out updates to the libraries that the other software you've installed has made and needs to run. And until it runs like it did before, the assignment's not over.
My K-12 education began with Apple IIe's which was the last Apple hardware bought. They then moved to 486 and eventually Pentium II; who knows what they have since I left... They are probably still running the mangled and terribly insecure NT4, I had their administrative password in the first 2 day.
No, I'm not a student here. I just drove my wife for her final exam, coz she can't drive due to her surgery last week.
I wandered around, and found a computer lab "donated by Microsoft". There are about 80 machines here, every single one running NT. Guess what is the development tool? Yeah, VB 6.0. And the MS Office package, WinQBS, and SPSS. I think this is for student development work, as I see people working on VB things. This is a bad trend, as these people will go out and only think that MS is the only software company.
Besides, every machine has a 17" ViewSonic monitor, but the resolution is set at 800x600, with 60Hz refresh rate. And the admin privilege is locked, so you can change it. I bet the admin is a MCSE.
I'm going to get out of here before I vomit.
I've long been against the futility of "Certifications" and "technical colleges." You absolutely come out of those with good, workable skills. The problem is that the computer industry changes so fast that workable skills in a technology become useless pretty fast. The *ability* to learn and integrate new things is what's important, and a more rounded education can accomplish that a lot better.
Besides, no matter their proficiency at a certain skill set, the employees still have to learn how to be good employees, something they're going to get a better chance at working those low level university IT jobs then they will slaving away over a Cert. And 2 years later, they'll be doing it again, at the employer's cost. On the other hand, a well-rounded employee is going to be constantly advancing his skill set.
It used to be that a cert was an easy road into a job. But lately in the market it seems that certifications can be more of a dead weight if they don't have any practical experience behind them.
I don't know the charge elsewhere, that's the case here:
:)
"Hello Microsoft support, what can I help you?"
"I got a problem...."
"We'll charge $179 for each probblem instance, 3 instances minimum."
"So...the minimum charge for raising a support call is....$537 right?..."
"Right you are....what is your second question?"
Sorry I made the last one up, but the rest is real.
If you understand that time is money, realize that to fix a windows machine is either incrediably difficult or impossible; That linux machine will be fixed much sooner. Since the software is
A) written by administrators for administrators, by developers for devlopers, etc.. It is made to be fixable, and there are good logs, etc.
B) Since Opensource software is freely available and obviously open; administrators can either fix problems, find out why there is a problem, or just learn the software a lot better then any microsoft software could ever be known. Opensource programs generate non-proprietary datafiles too, so their configuration files can be repaired.
Ok, maybe Joe Sixpack can't do all the things a seasoned Linux administrator can do.. even if they don't, they can either RTFM, have a seasoned administrator do it, or do it The Windows WayTM and reinstall; it can't be any worse then windows.
Also, Why does linux need phone support? Everyone knows someone running linux, if they don't it isn't hard to find someone; and you can find companies willing to provide support for the right fee.
Ummm... no.
MSCE = Master of Science [Computer,Civil] Engineering.
MCSE = Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer.
Bonus points: Which of the above are actually engineers?
Actually, most of the l33t people are all running Windows.. They are generally too under educated to handle linux, hell' they can barely handle windows.
At my university (of Arizona), MS sponsors all sorts of activities for the CS department. This has a huge influence on what the student hear and think. I'm a CS minor, its a hobby, and all the TA's for the intro course, in Java no less, are all MS "enthusiasts." Its an odd sight looking around at the kids grinning like idiots over their Windows based laptops, and the "teachers" wearing XBOX caps. The Prof did an informal survey at the begining of the course, and like others suggested, by far most students are in it for the money, having little previous computer experience. They are ripe for the picking by MS. It is really sad. The CS department wouldn't even set up remote homework collection for our class, because most of the TA's had no unix experience, and would not be able to access our turned in homework via ssh. At least every single piece of the UofA's network/ CS department servers are Unix. Its odd though, the fact that a school does not use MS products for their networks, yet breeds graduates that toe the MS line.
80% of the skills you learn in college are obsolete before they teach it to you. College professors are either incrediably under-educated in real-world software development or University policy is too slow to change. This is usually less true with technically-oriented schools in comparison to your more generic universities.
If I see another school basing their Computer Science education on Ada, Cobol, or Pascal.... And this isn't a joke, that is what these schools actually teach.
I went to Florida Institute of Technology for 2 semesters. Their first CSE 1101 course taught Html and Javascript, I skipped this with credit by testing out of it.. Their 2nd, CSE 1102 was Java programming; I was better then the professor in 2 weeks. And then later there were advanced courses in C, x86 asm, etc; although it was officially based on Java. So it was a pretty decent program, for $25,000/yr.
I ended up having to help the seniors with their Java programs as they were taught Ada, but later the professors required their applications to be written in Java.
I graduated with a CompSci degree in 2000 at UKC in Kent, UK. When I first arrived we were taught UNIX skills such as vi etc. However the year that arrived after us were taught NT! UKC is a really UNIXy UK university and some idiot thought it good to get rid of it for the undergrads.... doh! We formed a protest group as 3rd years, we got a petition and forced the uni to teach UNIX. Now a year later they are glad they took our advice.
Advocacy is an interesting thing, funny at my home (office) I'll openly admit to using XP on my desk, why not ? Its pretty good for a MS OS and I want to get work done in an interchangible format without spending a whole load of time messing around. You see you can all argue till the sun sets, but the fact is some of us don't have time to piddle around or argue for that fact!
As for UNIX boxes, well I love 'em to bits, and if Linux had a good office package I'd use it rather than XP. I have a Netra T1 AC105 with Solaris and 5 Linux boxes, so don't say I don't know my stuff.
As for graduates being dumb blah blah, well everyone does IT for different reasons and thats their choice. All I find in this industry is a pack of 'I'm a guru know-alls' who actually know squat. Why don't IT consultants act more professionally, keep their mouths shut at the relevant times and help people rather than blow their own trumpets?
Another one is incompetance, how many other industries can important records be blown away by a keystroke, with some kiddy saying 'we don't need a backup strategy as modern computers are reliable' ?
Finally, I don't know everything, but I sure as hell am willing to learn and show others.
One of the reasons I never post on Slashdot is because I am too busy, hell a lot of you guru's are either a) On benefit b) wasters - if you have time to argue all this stuff online!
Depending on the task I could see ways to spin MS tech support as top notch though. There are some tasks MS products do very well and their organization is designed around supporting. For example if I was trying to make 5 computers talk to each other and share a printer attached to one of them and use a common disk attached to another one of them I could do it with Linux or Win2k in roughly the same time, but I'm fairly experienced with Linux. If I wasn't expert at either, I bet I could actually do it with win2k in a reasonable amount of time (say a day) and when I had problems I could read their help, go to their web site and I bet I could get it done without ever talking to anyone. I think it would be very difficult, even with the newest mandrake and other easier to install dists to do it if you were a fairly novice person. If they found the howtos they could probably figure it out but they aren't always displayed in an obvious location, even on Mandrake there isn't an icon on the desktop or a search feature for them, they are in the KDE docs menu though..
If I had to do that and I suffered with it, I might say MS had better tech support. Likewise, bye the 5 or 6th try at it, MS has made the networking install and configuration pretty good and they've put a fair amount of effort in to trouble shooting those issues before you even have to go to the web or pickup the phone. At that particular task, they may be the best in the world. At real tasks that require real support? Well that's a little different.
Oh my gawd! I am soooo confused! Which religion should I choose. The world would be a better place if there were only one religion.
certainly not mine.
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
At Drexel U, most of us CS students walk the walk and talk the talk. I haven't used word in 3 years. My papers are all in latex, emacs is my word processer emailer and newsreader, gimp is my image editor, galeon is my browser of choice, followed by mozilla, gaim is my IM client, etc etc... most of my CS friends are the same. But then again, most of my CS friends are smart. The IT students on the other hand all swear by Microsoft and IIS, believe that everything can be solved in the next service pack, and think that microsoft tech support rules. I can't blame them though, that's what they teach in the School of IT. Microsoft is what most of the university uses, including our Information Resources and Technology dept. Perhaps the reason why the CS students are different is that almost from Day 1 as a CS major, you are told that Unix is the preferred way to do your work. Although, I've been getting the sense that this is changing with the younger crowd. As they say, shit rolls downhill.
Humorless sig goes here.
I have not actually done a survey with the undergrads, but from my perception, we should be able to find a correlation between the competence of a student (in term something "real", eg performance in a project, not just merely marks) and their attitude towards unfamilar OS/language etc.
The main problem is probably not "brainwashed" by MS , but rather, lack of passion to learn anything new. Many are attracted to do CS or IT for the wrong reasons (eg image, salary, job availabilty etc).
Trust me, most of these "MS fans" are the same bunch of today's marginal IT workers: someone who does not know how to lookup his/her own IP, does not understand the need to apply service pack, compulsive rebooter etc...
The article itself is mildly interesting, although it basically comes down to sending uninformed students to read all the FUD they can find on both sides and seeing what sticks. And the author doesn't seem to understand what Linux being free really means, and is wrong when he corrects his students about the cost of Windows. (If a PC costs the same with and without Windows, it is effectively free (beer) for you, even if someone ultimately pays for it.)
But I thought the most interesting thing was this bit:
Then the first shock came: someone blurted out, "nearly everyone who used Linux last year went on to fail their project". It came out that a number of individuals were missing from the final year due to failing the project element in year three. When I probed for the root cause of the project-failing problem, I got my second shock: "Linux is too hard to install".
Uh, hello? Anyone see anything ominous about that anecdote? It seems odd to hear that account and decide that the problem is that users need to be convinced that Linux is easy to use.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Well, its true I did place emphasis on programming languages.. although the point was that many colleges treat CS like a History or Math major; Old ideas and thoughts, keeping the same curriculum year after year. They have professors who either do not keep up with technology and ideas, or the management does not realize that CS is still an expanding and cutting edge field.
Actually many good IT folk cut there teeth on support. It was a good starting place for a first time computer job.
As fot the exams, I totally agree. Way expensive and without the valued experience uts not going to help much.
Matt
Doesn't look like the professors had a problem picking up, teaching, and grading a "real world" language.
Its not the job of a "real" CS program to teach you "job" skills. Its job is to teach Computer Science; in other words, theory. The rationale here is that the industry will be pumping and dumping languages every decade, but an "educated" developer will be able to adapt to the new environment, because the concepts involved are the same, regardless of the language.
Now, BlahBlah Tech should be a different story, since its not their job to produce computer scientists. But note the contradiction in what you say. The majority of professors do not have a problem picking up new languages and environments. (In fact, the majority of professors I knew, either all had side jobs in IT, or were involved in current technical projects.)
The problem is that CS professors generally care more about their research or tenure. Teaching undergrads, in most cases, was scutwork that needed to be dealt with as efficiently and in as little time possible. That is the reason why many (not so good) programs still teach with dead languages. They only upgrade when they perceive they will lose paying customers because their department isn't offering a skill package predominantly found in the "real" world.
The problem is that CS departments do not educate. At least they could run the class in a "modern" language; that way it would look like they're doing something for your tuition money.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Not bad, but been doing actual real world support with consumers and there is no such thing as a consumer OS. A lot of people still need a lot of help doing basic formatting in Word for example.
They fear anything different from the Mac world too, even if they want to use Photoshop which is better on the Mac. Its familiarity, even if they struggle with Windows they fear losing it on Windows. Can you imagine how they would feel about Linux? However, if an IT department where they worked decided to use something different then they would have no choice. So, Linux or Mac on corporate desktops is an extremely powerful thing.
Matt
A few months ago, I had an issue with sound under the latest 2.4 series kernels. This was with the trident driver and an ALi 1535+ southbridge. I have been using Linux as my sole desktop operating system for a while, and sound is very important for desktop/gaming use. This bug caused an OOPS when the module was loaded, which became a serious problem.
I read Documentation/oops-tracing.txt, and I submitted my report with whatever information I could figure out. What did I get in response? Within four days, 7 people were talking on this thread, including kernel giants Alan Cox and RML. Within four days, I had a patch that made this problem go away. (turned out to be bigger than just my card)
Do you really think that I could have gotten that kind of support from Microsoft? You might say that four days is a lot. But do you think I'd have ever gotten anywhere with MS? Even if I could get the level of debugging as I did from ksymoops, I'd have gotten shoved around. Microsoft would claim that its the manufacturer's responsibility, and the manufacturer would certainly not be receptive to any kind of technical description of a problem from a customer.
We're the guys who call the DSL company and have to say "Your access concentrator is sending a PADT packet to terminate the session," with the only response being "Sir, can you tell me if your modem is on?" I've actually tricked at least 2 of their techies into believing that I'm running Windows.
Verizon: Now open up Network Neighborhood.
Me: Hold on a second. It's still warming up... Oh damn, it hung. Let me reboot.
I didn't pay a cent for support. In exchange for a few minutes of my time learning to use ksymoops, I got replies from some of the top kernel developers, and got the problem fixed. Beat that, Microsoft.
Michael F. Robbins
Linux itself when downloaded for free has no support, its even in the License agreement. So if you want a free copy, go ahead, just don't complain about support.
This is what you should be looking for in terms of support:
Purchase from a Linux vendor:
Check to see what your purchase entitles you to, for most distro's this is a standard 30-60 day installation support.
If you want more then most of the larger distrobutions will offer professional services as an extra offering, in fact this is common with large software products, check with the distro to see how much it is and what they can offer.
Hardware vendor:
The big one here is IBM. Never purchased from them, but it might be similer to what the distro's offer.
In fact here is what they offer:
Depending on customer need, IBM offers 24-hour a day, 7-days a week Internet and voice support, ranging from answering usage questions to identifying problems. IBM Global Services also provides consulting, planning and implementation services for Linux. IBM consultants can help you evaluate whether Linux is appropriate for your particular environment.
Now, customers can turn to IBM Global Services as a one-stop shop for Linux support. For information on properly configuring and implementing, as well as enhancing, your Linux solutions or additional service and support offerings please call 1-888-426-4343.
IBM operational support services
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IBM is here to support Linux at every step of the way on its remarkable journey. We've already dedicated $1 billion to Linux development and will invest more than $300 million in Linux services over the next three years.
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7x24 Enterprise Level remote support for your Linux OS environment.
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Fast and accurate problem resolution.
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A way to supplement your internal staff with IBM's skilled services specialists.
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Defect support for supported distributions of the Linux OS and Linux applications.
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Electronic support and problem submission that saves you time and allows you to track your open support issues.
IBM's premier remote technical support for Linux
An IBM Business Partner, Worklab develops its solutions with IBM e-business products such as IBM DB2 Universal Database for Linux, Lotus Notes and Lotus Domino.
We help answer your how-to questions, help you define problems and determine their source. Additionally, by leveraging our partnerships with the key distributors of the Linux operating system, IBM is able to provide defect-level support for the Linux OS. Remote assistance is available through toll-free telephone access and electronic access. For all eligible distributions of the Linux operating system, we help you with:
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IBM is here to support Linux at every step of the way on its remarkable journey. We've already dedicated $1 billion to Linux development and will invest more than $300 million in Linux services over the next three years.
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usage and installation questions
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interpretation of product documentation
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product compatibility and interoperability questions
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a diagnostic information review to help isolate the cause of a problem
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configuration samples
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IBM and multivendor database searches
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planning information for software fixes
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defect support
Electronic Support allows you to submit and get answers to your problems electronically.
Not so bad, despite the majority of whining by users who want proffesional support for things that they freely downladed Linuxcare is still going, and yes you have to buy this support. Actually IBM use Linuxcare too.
If you want free support for a free download, go to usenet or use mailing lists.
Matt
Sigh. My point is that an awful lot of companies, and even more individuals think that tech support will solve all their problems for them. That, my friend, is clueless. This attitude is based solely on accountability. Many people who are In IT For The Money (MCSEs, management, etc.) can't take responsibility if things don't work. What do they do? They use tech support as a scapegoat. And the companies that provide said support typically have very little capability to do so. It's there for the illusion of reliability. Ask some people who have dealt with microsoft support how many times the solution is "reboot, if that doesn't work do a reinstall". These clueless companies can't rely on usenet or irc because the management won't accept "sorry, things aren't working and I did what some anonymous dude on IRC said to do" as much as they will accept "sorry, things aren't working and I did what Jack Schmeckler, senior Microsoft Tech Support Weenie, said." In both cases you're just as fucked because things aren't working. Yet somehow, if you pay for support and don't get a solution it's ok...even though often you get far superior support from the geeks on irc and usenet. That is my point.
And FYI I couldn't care less about linux becoming mainstream. Yeah you heard me. Fuck mainstream linux, it blows. I've been a user since the days when all you had were a boot and a root floppy, and everything else was do it yerself. I like it like that. When you have mainstream you cater to the intelligence of the average person. That leads to things like microsoft's glorious products. And all this "it's the desktop os of choice...for the masses!" bullshit has been creeping into linux distros too. Have you seen the stuff they have on new "mainstream" linux distros? Yeah they work out of the box with a cutesy x installers and all this other cruft, but god damn if it isn't more trouble in the long run than burning a minimal copy of debian and building the software you need, as you need it.
Am I the only one who found this to be an incredibly disturbing statement?
Then the first shock came: someone blurted out, "nearly everyone who used Linux last year went on to fail their project". It came out that a number of individuals were missing from the final year due to failing the project element in year three. When I probed for the root cause of the project-failing problem, I got my second shock: "Linux is too hard to install".
Say what you want about Hamburger U. If students can't even get their UNIX systems up in time to pass their classes, what f**ked up rationale can one provide to support the notion that everyone (mom, pop, & cheerleader) should chuck M$ for Linux? Can anyone give a credible explanation for why this is merely an anomaly?
This is a serious problem and reality is swinging a mean cluestick.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
People know that when they have a problem with a MS product, they call Microsoft. If you have a problem with your Dell Laptop, you call Dell.
:-)
And if you have a problem with Windows running on a Dell, each company will pin the blame on the other and keep sending you in circles.
~Philly
I have friends in the CE program at Cal State Pomona and that's pretty much exactly what they do. All of the programming workstations are Ultra5s and use GNU tools for compiling and debugging. A good number of students develop on Linux and just port their stuff to Solaris which doesn't take very long in most cases. The school's also a big promoter of Java (which they have been for a number of years in the CE programs) so Sun was a natural choice for development systems since Linux namely had shit Java support in the past. If people don't have a Linux partition somewhere on their systems they've learned to log into the Ultra5s via puTTY or a Windows X server to do their work outside of lab hours.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
We didn't have to deal with UNIX/Linux much outside of a couple classes, though, so it was really easy for students to hate it, and not know how to use it, which was really quite sad.
I'm making real money off Linux. My primary employer's clients pay cold hard cash for a customized, niche product based on Free software, and the folks I do side jobs for (smaller businesses, mostly) just want a solution that works -- they don't care if it's Linux, NT or BobsOS. For these folks, Linux is a real win on technical merits alone, and the lack of licensing fees (and the ability to hire enhancements done, and the ability to hire one of many tech support companies rather than being tied to the main developer, etc) is a real plus.
Apparently the author hasn't been a student himself. If so, he'd at least have learned not to make general accusations based on a single article on the internet!
This is the only part of the article I disagree with. X Windows is slow. Period. I don't get anywhere near the responsiveness and speed with X-Windows on my PC that I get with Windows. As much as I love developing and playing with Linux, the slow speed of the GUI ticks me off more than anything. I don't see how anyone could not realize how much slower Gnome is then Windows, and then indignantly yell that it's a myth when someone else observes this fact.
$45 per U Colocation Special
If those who screamed "it's a matter of choice" had any background in UI design, they would understand that their car analogies are perfectly silly: It's not about whether the Lexus has the plushy seats or the Boxer let's you pick up hot women at the beach. It's that you are able to move natively between a car you are perfectly familiar with and a car you've never used before because EVERY SINGLE DAMN CAR PRODUCED ON THE PLANET HAS THE BRAKE ON THE LEFT AND THE GAS ON THE RIGHT . Every single damn one, no exceptions. And yet all the "pro-choice" (pun intended) linux geeks who use car analogies seem to have no problem with the folks at GM and Honda deciding that there will be one particular convention for pedal layout. I haven't yet seen any posts on Slashdot decrying Chrysler for robbing American drivers of their ability to choose to have their steering wheel on the right side of the car. The reality of the computer world is that most rabidly pro-choice linux geeks gladly accept the benefits of pre-chosen standards regarding all sorts of things other than computers, but once something has RAM and a processor, consistency and standardization is considered a mortal sin.
I had nearly the same dilemma! I went with bash in the end, after a gruelling few months with csh. The GUI stuff is easy, choosing something as important as your shell... that's tough.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
It seems to me that the responses to this article can be summed up like this:
When I have a problem with a machine at work and they(work) pay the $200 to M$, they solve the problem, but when I try to get help for my Linux distro from IRC i get told to RTFM
Come on!! Get a grip on reality..If you are using Linux in a Commercial/Professional envioronment you would be a member of something like Redhat's RHN or similar..
If you need to you can get Tech Support from the Professional Distro Companies at a cost... Just like M$..
Just coz you're dicking around with Linux at home and you don't wanna pay anything, doesnt mean that good tech support for it does not exist....
If you go to IRC... you get an IRC solution... for M$ & Linux.... And you deserve the result
Burma?
I must appologize in advance for this comment. It's late and I'm already over the edge.
/. story, or at least the /. brief is outright bullshit. I have never been this upset at a slashdot story. IT? Give me a ----ing break. My current university's computer science deparment (wtf is IT in the real word anyway but a tag for jerks who think that IT is, like, a way cool job, dude) relies on Linux day in a day out. 7 Dell linux server providing SSH access to hundreds of student for their assignments, websites, and so much more.
/. to get us riled up. I don't what CS students you are talking about but they should be round up and tortured by piping zsh into their brains.
I haven't read the article but this
The Math and CS labs all run linux and if you don't know how to use it... the answer is LEARN.
My last university where I was a Sys Admin was also heavily reliant upon Linux where all the servers for deparments (even linguistics for which no client applications exist) were all Linux servers. Profs and students alike were all very aware of Linux.
As limited as this comment is, I'm sure there are more like IT (pun darn well intended). Nothing like
I don't have any mod right now, so I'll just flame you.
Support services love stupid users like you. After all, they get paid 299 bucks for a problem which the user could have easily solved by walking through HOWTOs for 15 minutes or (heavens forbid) use a search engine to look for solutions.
So, buy paid support from SuSE here, ask your question and we'll see whether your answer will be "RTFM".
> These are not the system administrators (...) of tomorrow
yeah right
The first step was to specify the assignment in number of words, 200 or 500 words instead of 1/2 page or 1 page. After that, it was sort of a carrot and stick thing.
Carrots:
- My web pages worked in their favorite browsers.
- The web was (still is) trendy.
Sticks:Use the office hours to find a way in which they are willing to try it and be prepared to meet them more than half way. If you make the experience convenient and useful, then they'll also tell they colleagues. But if you don't ask, you don't get.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
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I'm still working on a clever footer.
But its not up to the standard of the Psychic Friends Network
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
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I was never too keen about putting all your eggs in one basket. As a computer profesional, I consider my self a scientist or implementor of technology rather than a vendor whore. For example, I know a cisco guy who is probably the best Cisco Engineer I've ever met, BUT, he is not a slave to Cisco.He has an extremely broad range of networking protocols, and continues increasing his knowledge of "foreign" networking components. As well as myself, I know and use and administer 5 different UNICES, as well as Linux (SCO, AIX, Solaris, HP-UX and IRIX). To me MCSE's are like the guys who say "If I'm gonna get hit by a car, it BETTER be a Ford"
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
It makes me wonder if someone screwed up hiring her and maybe the DBA on her resume stood for something else.
Then why don't they put an index to the Knowledge Base that actually works (that is, will find the answer when you don't already know the answer)? Put in the exact words of an error message -- nothing found. Had MIS call the paid tech support. Two days later, they sent us the URL to a page in the KB about that error message. Turned out the error was the exact opposite of what the error message said...
No wonder they think linux technical support sucks. I rang the college computer helpdesk about a problem with NT networking. Three months later, someone strolled into the office and said they were here to fix an NT computer. I nearly died laughing. Of course, we had managed to fix it ourselves along time ago...
I can just imagine ringing up the Helpdesk:
Q:
"Hi, I need the IP address of the college DNS servers to configure my redhat networking?"
A:
"Wow! They have windows running on Hats now aswell? Jeez, these microsoft guys are smart."
About a month or two ago, National Geographic of all people, did a write up on Silicon Valey and the software business there. It was very funny to turn big fluffy full spread M$ adverts to pages filled with real people doing real things with real computers that were visably running anything but M$. Not one M$ cripled box in the bunch, though it was not mentioned explicitly. The real world, it seems, knows better. Even the jocks who studdied rocks!
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Microsoft has all the trappings of technical support. Call this 1-800-number. We have operators standing by. We employ more programmers than any other PC software house. We advertise that we have support.
But the reality, when you really have a problem, is a less glitzy than the hype. Wait on hold unless you pay extra, be told to reboot, be told to reinstall the OS and apps in a new magic sequence, that it's a hardware maker that has the bad software driver, that the fix will be in the next Service Pack, etc.
Linux OTOH has very sketchy official sounding support. Sure, 1-800 numbers for some paid-for distros, but if you ask Linux users, the vast majority get help out of the bazaar.
And the surprising reality is just how successful such a support model can be. Someone in Germany with the same video card posted his XFree86 config file to Usenet. Go figure!
It's a strange difference. On one hand, being told that you have a designated and well-described support channel that practically turns out to be unsatisfying in many regards, and on the other hand, being told to stake your critical need for help and assistance on a to-be-determined random unidentified stranger in an amorphous mass of users that practically turns out to be more satisfying than you ever expected.
No wonder many people are confused.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Good ideas about multi-user, multi-tasking, and extensible operating systems don't come along with every new release of Windows. Sorry to burst your little bubble. Unix is an OLD concept, but a good one.
Multi-tasking, multi-user, extensible; those didn't originate with UNIX, sadly enough. UNIX has some good core concepts, but taken as a whole that OS is sadly, sadly outdated. Only someone without much OS background would say otherwise (hint: "OS background" cannot be equated with "I've installed a whole bunch of Linux distros").
Come on, now...I'll restrain myself from pointing out that MySQL isn't Linux, and...oh, wait...sorry about that...
* * *
It is a dada story -- it has no moral.
A friend paid the $45 because they couldn't get an example in the excel manual to work (they needed it for a group project). The answer was that excel couldn't do that, and the manual was wrong. No refund.
hawk
g
One thing I've been able to do is stump MS every time. Several times I've gotten the answer "our OS don't let you do that," and my superior's jaws would just drop! It's one of the reasons why we've had to chuck MS products in many applications.
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
The lady asked me how much for three questions, and I told her, "$100."
"Isn't that outrageous?"
"Yes. Now what's your third question?"
hawk, esq.
So why choose to install either? You can still use the aplications that are linked to their libraries.
hawk
>they would get together, rationally and
>unemotionally select the most desirable features
>from each, and include them in the one
>frontrunning Linux desktop
But that's just not possible. Gnome exists for *religious* reasons, namely that KDE wasn't pure enough in the Holy GPL. Look for Catholicism and Lurtheranism as a single institution before Gnome and KDE (after 500 years, there is some progress [of course, that has the Missouri Synod upset, but that's another story .
The entire claim that KDE was in violation of the GPL was just plain nonsense. It wasn't true (though imported GPL code may have violated the GPL). It is not *possible* to violate your own license with your own work. KDE was not GPL, in spite of their protestations, but a Quasi-GPL, with an exception for libraries. Not because it said so, but becausethe law does that on its own.
hawk, esq.
My favorite CS prof is trying to get approval for a bunch of systems with hot-swap drive bays in the computer lab. His plan is to have everyone in the unix admin class do an install from scratch (how in-depth he wants to go, I have no idea. I would guess he's a slackware guy.) The students would have to buy the drive and chassis, but they can get the full experience without having to really hose up anyone's box (either the schools or their own).
Anyway, it's a great idea and some teachers are already trying to implement it.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
>I disagree. An IT manager still has a person that he or she has to report to. In a big corporate environment a lot of cost analysis and benefit analysis must be made before something is implemented. It's not like an IT manager can go in one weekend and change every desktop OS. There's still a lot of old school politics going around>
Its cool to beg to differ, but you are basing your assumptions on me assuming an IT manager would wake up and decide to roll in Linux during a weekend. Ain't going to happen, no-one would ever do that. It would be a slow process and if during testing they realised that the benefits outweigh the risks then they would start to roll it out. The users would not have much choice, apart from having the same choice as the Largo people did with signing up for classes. Old school, yeah that is going around, however if you run or own a business the last thing you want your CTO is to rest on his laurels whilst a competitor's CTO is actively trying to find alternatives that may work and reduce costs. This is a large part of the CTO's workload.
>Secondly, what benefit would it be to install Linux desktop at NY Times (for example)? Chances are the reporters use MS Office to write their articles and Macs for layout. Linux isn't the final solution for all environments.>
It would if the Office apps could open all MS Office files. If you could do that then why use expensive Windows? People once said that Linux would never make it on the server, that it would always be a geek toy. They got that wrong. If you set everything in stone then you are vulnerable to being made redundant.
As for all situations, well OSS tends to evolve, but the future is probably going to be more mixed up. Well hopefully will be. Having domination to such an extent has damaged IT and may have even slowed its progress.
Matt