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64 Mbyte Write once CMOS Chip from Standard Fabs
brian wang writes "Matrix semiconductor has taped out 64 Mbyte write once chip. It is 8 layer memory that can be made at standard fabs. They will be made at Taiwan Semiconductor initially in a 0.25micron process.
It will be compatible with Flash.
Obviously when they move to 0.18 micron and 0.13 and 0.10 micron processes that already are producing chips the memory size will shoot up to rival CDRoms from single chips. Revolutionary impact for handhelds, PCs, ROMDrives etc..."
See, I knew it: Little is better.
Thats _not_ what she said....
But they will not burn so nice and bright in the microwave...
What a shame.
On the serious side tho, it looks like a very viable technology for permanent information sharing between many devices...
I'm not too much of a hardware guy, but I do know that the BIOS of a computer are made of CMOS. I also know that they're extremely small. Would this have any impact on instant boot projects like LinuxBIOS? With 64MB you could fit pretty much the entire boot procedure. That would be sweet.
CDs don't get zapped with static.
Interesting stuff, but how much storage space will we ultimately need to carry with us?
With technology like this advancing along with moore's law I can see that it shouldn't be a few more years before it'll be commonplace to carry devices with GBs of data in your pocket.
It's a common point to note that famous phrase that "640Kb should be enough for anyone!", but I think that now we truely are starting to reach the limits of neccessity for normal portable memory.
How much do you really think YOU need to carry?
-- Pete.
Monochrome - Probably the UK's largest internet BBS
I mean, what am I going to use this thing for that CD's, DVD's, already do? If it's WORM, I'm just not interested. I guess about all you could use it for is to cheaply up the amount of phrases a Furbie doll can spew out.. Like the one that the Jerky Boys came across...
I remember, years ago, a presentation of write only memory modules, in which you could write TERABYTES of data, in a very small (for the time)dip 16 form factor.
That was a lot of capacity.
And for the fact you could never read it, bah, examine your computer, your diskets box, your cdrom collection... how many Gb did you not read in the last three years.
"Using a 3-D fabrication method that deposits layers of circuits with a modified CMOS process, the technique can yield nine to 10 times the amount of chips per a given wafer, providing a cost advantage over traditional flash memory, according to Matrix..."
So we could see a CDROM-capacity write-once "consumable memory" chip that was the same size as a 64MB chip now. Nice, but the article later says:
"The company said it sees no limit to the number of layers that could be added to a device."
How does that jive with the earlier stated scalability of 9-10x?
"'If they can really do this and produce working devices, it is very hot,' said Richard Wawrzyniak, an analyst at Semico Research (Phoenix)."
Oh, so heat is the limiting factor! <g> Seriously, though, I agree with his assessment—having the devices actually work would greatly contribute to their coolness factor.
Really, I do hope they do well. It's always nice to see new technologies. I don't think this is particularily *new*, so to speak, but you get the idea.
... you're stuck with what they give you.
Now, the question is, will general consumers have any interest in these? I wouldn't want my motherboard's BIOS to be on one of these things. Even Intel and IBM make mistakes; if I had to buy a new chip with the new BIOS revision on it, I'd be irritated.
Likewise, for PDAs and the like, it's even more doubtful. Sure, if they're cheap, it might be useful for *some* things. But do you want your OS on there? Really? Understand that you can't upgrade it, you can't change anything that's on there
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
See, I knew it: Little is better.
So.. that's why it's not Commander Burrito
See, I knew it: Little is better.
Surely these are the words of a genius!
To creating real Write-only memory.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Put another way, does write-once in this case mean it's like a CD (commit entire data payload in one chunk and seal it forever), or like a blank book (fill in pages as you go).
If it can be done incrementally, that represents a significant advantage over CDs, other factors being (for the sake of argument) equal.
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I'll still with flash re-writable memory... what's the point if I can only write once? unless they really make the modules so cheap they're practically giving them away, I don't see this tech. taking off.
How many time will we hear about this? How many times will it be posted to slashdot without any one thinking... I wonder if this is the same story as... hmmm... that one a week ago...
no...
--junk
Perhaps in the future your processor will be the size and shape of a die or cube of cheese.
Why should we care about this?
:)
- Write Once Memory: CD-ROM is 10x larger, and is very cheap. DVD-ROM will eventually be about 100x larger.
- Solid-state storage for Digital Cameras: Write-Many memory chips are readily available. They are expensive, but reusable. Will this write-once chip be cheap enough to make it worth while? Or are these chips much smaller, making this interesting to travelers?
- Computer Memory: Obviously not useful there (I don't see a market ofr single-use computers
Is there other info about this memory, showing why this is of any use?
ShoutingMan.com
Behold, the power of Cheesium 886.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
"See, I knew it: Little is better."
Which girls have you been arguing this with, anyway?
what's the point if I can only write once?
Tell him what some uses are, Johnny!
unless they really make the modules so cheap they're practically giving them away
I believe that's what they're envisioning. From the article..."The company envisions its chips being cheap enough to be sold in multipacks at grocery checkout counters". Wow, an 8 pack of 64 meg memory modules for the same price as a pack of batteries? Even one for the same price as a pack of batteries would be worth the cost.
I formally declare this a good thing. But don't take my word for it, read the article yourself.
When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
Isn't that just an EPROM? What's the big deal? 64MB EPROM woooo!
Exactly the same story available at
0 25 1
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/11/131
Imagine how much money AOL could save in shipping if they could mail you a tiny chip instead of a CD!
I Heart Sorting Networks
Notables:
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this time not random access though
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
"Yawn Factor" (Yon-Fak-tur) n: The realisation that the product being showcased in an article registers as barely exciting.
Hmm. Fits this. Whee, a 64MB PROM. Big Flappin Deal.
So, just exactly how useful is this miracle device? About as useful as 1/10 of a CD-R. Probably less than that.
I'm trying to think of something to make this little gem exciting. I just can't. Er. Maybe we could have 512MBIT SNES cartridges now?
Really, I think I'll stick with my 64M compact flash card.
Maybe they'll find some cheap interactive toy to stuff this miracle invention in. I can't think of the use for it, when CD-Rs are so prevalent.
The (Hopefully) Great Slashdot Blackout
A photography magazine says that Matrix intends to sell read only memory for digital cameras at half the writable price. Conclusion: they will only sell a limited amount for the direct consumer market. Their only hope is to target security related markets were everything should be traceable.
"This makes it much more difficult for someone to say "The photos/tape was doctored" when you can show them the images direct from a WOPM source."
And the reason why they couldn't have extracted it from the original WOPM source, edited it and loaded it back into another one is, exactly?
Sounds like Stephen R. Donaldson had something going when he described datacores in the Gap series.
If you can jack one of these things up into giga, tera, or larger ranges, then you can start using it to provide write-once history logging. Big brother, black boxes, personal recorders...
This is old technology with new marketing. The technology is called OTP ROM and has been available for over 20 years. During development time of a product, engineers want to use UV-erasable PROMs. But once you release it to manufacturing, there is no need to erase the ROM. So the idea is to put an identical die with the same electrical and speed characteristics in two different packages, ceramic, and plastic. The UV-erasable ones have a crystal window and are packaged in ceramic enclosure, which is very expensive. The one-time programmable ones don't have a window and are packaged in plastic, which are very low-cost.
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all of this is very well an good, but what i keep seeing is [new] products that, even when they are better than the old standard, cheaper, etc, they are not adopted because there are way too many new options to choose from and none of them can be as 'universal' as the current standard. Case in point: any alternative to floppy drives. also, any competitor to Windows and/or MS Office. So we stick with something that is inferior because we've never done anything new and besides, everybody else is still doing it too.
I love expressions of human individuality.
It will have its applications but certainly not in the digital camera/mp3 player market.
The advantage of the digital camera is that you can take a crap load of pictures to get a few good ones. You delete the others. Why would I want to start paying per picture again? Yes I have to back things up but thats only pictures I choose to keep.
Same things can be said for most digital devices consumer devices.
One should not theorize before one has data. -Sherlock Holmes-
the only thing write once chips are good for are storing program code. even then, it's usually better to have write many flash, in case the firmware in any such device needs to be upgraded. (in factory or by consumer) Other than that, I don't see any use for this. Vaporware. Move on folks, nothing to see here.
OK. Are you happy now?
Seriously, consider the potential for something like this with a storage capacity similar to that of a CD (or even bigger) with a cost comparable to a CD-R, but a footprint the size of a postage stamp. So, if you have a choice of spending $142 for 320 MB of reuseable CF, or getting 450+ GB of Write-Once CF-R for the same price, which one are you really likely to choose? (assume they can sell them for $1.99 each - be optimistic) And if you need more than a single piece of CF - because you have several devices that use it?
This could replace a lot of currently used media (CDs, DVDs, VHS tape, floppies, film, etc) and they could all use the same reader hardware.
You either believe in rational thought or you don't
Of course, you could use a DVD-R drive the same way and get 9.4GB of storage.
See, I knew it: Little is better.
Taco, are you trying to tell us something we don't want to know?
=/
Stop over-analyzing your analizations
It's obvious that the purpose is to provide cheap readonly[1] media to record[2] companies. They'll write their encrypted MP3 equivalent[3] to these things rather than CDs and they can then drop their expensive CD pressing operations.
It'll be the next big music format.
[1] After all, why should they pay for read/write media?
[2] And video companies once the chips are big enough.[3] WMA?
Deleted
I just want to make sure everyone got the joke
in other words, take any media, and assign it a serial number. easy as that. use encryption on the serial number. they probably already do this for some things. it would still be crackable i'm sure though. tampering with the serial number or something.
Bipolar junction transistors (BJT) that are commonly found in an integrated circuit is soon to be replaced by metal oxide semiconductors (MOS) and specifically metal oxide semiconductor field effect transistors (MOSFET), for the simple reason that MOSFET can operate at a frequency in the magnitude of GHz. The MOSFET chips have already been employed in the wireless communications, and have proven to be far more superior than regular BJT's for their small sizes and range of operations in terms of frequencies. Imagine replacing BJT's with MOSFET in the computer industry!
A lot of the "consumer" applications that are being kicked around would probably be served just as well, for a LOT less $$, by SRAM and a watch-battery to back it up. Now I'm no engineer but if one really wanted a gig or more of cheap storage, why not take a gig of SRAM and back it up with a battery? Granted, battery backup is not forever (5 yr max?), but given the price of ram, I would think you could even make the thing completely redundant internally (two batteries and banks of SRAM that compare against each other RAID style)... I would expect the pressure on battery technology and SRAM pricing to move this idea in the direction of workable long before mega-storage write-once PROMs take off. I can't imagine these things being a replacement for CDRs or Floppys or much other than, err, low-storage PROMs.
Even those silly USB Keychains could use such a technique. 2x512MB DIMMs plus a lion or nimh battery to back it up (recharge off the USB bus) would be ~$100. Of course, I may be totally out to lunch here...
-- "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." (Charles Darwin)
First, CmdrTaco says:
:)"
"I figured that I get somewhere around 30-40,000 pieces of spam annually. Lucky me... I get *this* statistic to be on the other side of the bell curve
then
"See, I knew it: Little is better"
He's got a tiny dick.
The advantage of the digital camera is that you can take a crap load of pictures to get a few good ones. You delete the others. Why would I want to start paying per picture again?
Kodak and others make a pretty nice chunk of change selling everyone and their mothers rolls of film, that you can only use once.
With digital cameras, you no longer have to buy film all the time, you just download it into your computer, clear the ram, and your set.
definately not in Kodak's best interest.
With a chip like this, they could begin to make something like "disposeable" digital cameras, and the like. get a cheap camera, use up the write-only chip, return it to a store for development, adn it gets recycled with a new chip.
With the amount of $ that is involved in the film market, its not a question of if we'll see something like this on the market...
jsut a matter of when.
no matter if it would be a technological and logical step backwards. (And if you need proof, just look at our favorite monopoly
Stop over-analyzing your analizations
I wonder if future versions of the chip will come down in price to rival music CDROMs? In that case, we could go to Tower Records and buy a chip of our favorite music. Of course this raises the spectre of even easier content control when everything is totally digital. Imagine a memory chip of Britney in anti-static packaging :)
What if it's cheap enough, so that you don't have to worry about the bad ones? Have an indexing bit in the card FS, and mark it bad. You won't see it again (because the software will ignore it). If the memory is much much cheaper than flash (anything would have to be), it seems to be a good option.
With an archiveable time of 100 years, this may be a good option for photo-journalists, etc etc. So they don't loose any images.
For mp3 players: If it costs as much per meg as a CD-R for a chip (witha a comparable storage size), but the chip is small enough to fit on your index finger, seems like a helluva deal to me. This would be infinitely better than the power hungry opto-mechanical devices employed today. You could probably play a weeks worth of music on a few AA batteries.
Great, so now our chips will have annoying animated ads in them too?
Sheesh.
---- Please be nice in case my Slashdot karma ~= my real life karma.
I always felt that the big advantage with digital cameras was the fact that you didn't need to get the pictures developed. You have them instantly. You've got to store the pictures somewhere. I wouldn't be too bothered by storing 50 images on a $5 chip. At least that way I don't have to worry about my hard drive crashing and losing all my data, or something like that.
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Very nice : Yes
Interesting : Yes !
I mean : imagine a Barbie Cluster ! You could at last find some use to your sister collection 8)
Rc5 Anyone 8))
Write once will only be useful for shipping prerecorded songs for the record companies. I like my SmartMedia cards and they cost about $0.50/MB today. When this company started work on these chips, the cost of flash memory was $2/MB or more. I can get a 64MB SmartMedia card for about $35-$40 depending on the brand I buy. The key thing here is that I can keep reusing the chip.
With my 4Mpixel digital camera, I can fit about 80 pictures in high quality JPEG format. I can transfer them to my computer, then I can reuse it again. I can keep doing this over and over again. And after I use it 7 times, my 64MB SmartMedia card will break even with the $5 64MB MatrixSemi card. I don't know about you, but I like the fact that I can rewrite.
And guess what? If DRAM is any example, flash memory cards will keep decreasing in price. MatrixSemi is in a niche market and their product will probably never catch on unless they can make their anti-fuse technology rewritable.
A few people have been speculating about 3D processors based on this or similar technology. While this is a neat way of building memory, don't get your hopes up for 3D processors any time soon.
What they've done, according to the article, is deposit several layers of thin-film transistors on top of a more or less standard chip.
These transistors will be *slow*. That's fine for something you're using to replace flash, but not fine for a processor. The hard problem of building high-quality transistors in a multi-level structure has not been solved.
The other problem is heat. With a hierarchically-designed memory array, you can make a larger array without power per access going up very much (at the cost of a very small amount of extra delay). This means that packing ten times as much memory into the same chip area won't cause much of a heating problem.
The core of a microprocessor, on the other hand, is pretty much all active at once (or mostly active). You have calculation results flying to reservation stations everywhere, you have a lot of fully-associative arrays being indexed, and you have a lot of logic churning away. Packing this into a tenth the area would make the used area much, much hotter (remember Newton's law of heating and cooling - you need the same heat flow from a tenth the area, so ten times the heat difference between chip and environment).
The good news is that you might be able to put the L2 cache in higher layers with technology similar to this and save space that way, but this is a one-time saving, with a performance penalty (until the holy grail of stacked transistor technology is found).
Still an interesting accomplishment, of course.
The real exciting consequence of this article is the proliferation of solid state devices as an AFFORDABLE portable storage media, especially for things you don't mind archiving, like pictures and music.
Think about it...
Right now to affordably carry around a bunch of music, we're stuck with CDs and various magnetic media (zip disks, ls-120, etc.). Yes, you can buy the expensive flash based storage media, but it costs way too much to have a whole pile of them to throw in your pocket on your way out the door. And, of course, CDs and magnetic media all require mechanical devices to read them.
If this comes to fruition at the cheap prices they were implying, we could be buying solid state memory cards in large quantities the same way we used to go and buy floppies. This amount of convenience coupled with not having to worry about every bump jolting some disk reader is definitely a good thing.
Life is but a mist upon the horizon.
Samsung has unveiled a gigabit flash (128MB) that, unlike this matrix part, is erasable. If that's not enough, you can buy a
2 gigabit flash stack (256 MB) from irvine sensors.
True, these are packaging techniques for more density, and aren't as cool as putting more memory on one die, but don't overlook them: they offer about the same densities. Hopefully, we can eventually combine both techniques, for even greater densities.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
The WOM chip was up there with the BD-1 Battery Discharger IC and the Darkness Emitting Diode (DED) which was initialized by applying 110VAC across the anode and cathode.
A components engineer fabricated a spec sheet for the BD-1 and submitted it to the catalog department, and it actually got published. When customers started requesting samples, the supplier got wise and requested that customers return their databooks. True Story.
Made me look twice :)
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
Imagine, no moving parts, no scratches, no skips, tiny form factor. Sounds like great medium for the gigs of MP3's and pr0n that are clobbering your HD.
I've built a battery backed SRAM-based microcomputer in 1979 using chips called 5101, back in the days when "building a PC by yourself" actually meant soldering chips on circuit boards or wire-wrapping them together.
BTW, you do realize that srams take 6 transistors per cell whereas rom takes one.
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Retailers will love this. Now they can make you keep coming back for more. Watch for this to be popular with camera makers, even if a reusable medium is more cost-effective for the end user.
That must be why the Japanese are so neat and tidy: so as not to lose their gameboy cartridges and mini-discs
Actually, I think you'll find that its whole story which is redundant...
As I understand it, many courts are unwilling to admit evidence that isn't stored on write-once media. As such, many architects etc.. still use celluloid to "cover their asses" while for day-to-day use make invest in digital cameras.
Flash-compatible proms sound like an ideal way to save lugging round two separate cameras.