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Fast Track to a CS Degree?
kyrex asks: "it's been 5
years since I've been working in the tech industry and I've make
great progress. My salary has grown by an annual rate of about 50%
and I'm currently working as a consultant in a leading consulting
firm. But not having received any formal education in Computer
Science, and therefore having no degree will be a problem for
further progress. I've considered many options but they all take
time: at least 3 years. I've been programming since I was 12
(I'm currently 24) and have read hundreds of CS books. I think that I
can easily complete a CS degree in 1 year. I want to know if there
are universities/institutions out there that offers computer
professionals like me a fast track to a CS degree that will be
recognised as such by other universities (so that I can continue
with a MSc afterwards)"
well for my cs degree i had to take the calculus sequence calc I, II & III. that's 1.5 yrs there, not to mention the other dependencies between classes; like post-calc stats i had to take after calc...
your best bet is to maybe CLEP your way out of some of the other classes if you're really bright and study hard. but doing it in 1 yr is un-reasonable.
it's still worth the effort i think...
I believe its called clept tests, where you can take a test on the course and if you pass it, you get credit for the course. Ask a university if you can clept tests and how many courses can you clept. Some schools have it where you have to go manditory for so many years or only allow you to clept so many classes, etc. Maybe you can find a school in your area that will let you clept most or maybe even just about every class and then you'd only need to go there for a couple of semesters to get your bachelors.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
If you have a proven track record and years of experience, that's what matters. Or at least that's what matter to companies that I'd want to work for.
Its unfortunate that so many people value pieces of paper with writing on them.
There are many great people out there hindered by this belief.
I dont think all companies and organisations within the industry are that judgemental. Most companies have theyre own rating system internally.
Stick with them.
Make yourself valueable to them.
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Is a CCIE and CISSP enough or would a BS make all the difference in the world? Most grads I talked to don't have a good understanding of computers unless it's also their hobby which leads me to believe that a BS is just to get your foot in the door when you have no real talent.
50% a year for five years? So... let's say he started out at 40K... he's making well over 200K now? Jeezus, just how far does this guy wanna advance???
Skivvy Niner? Email me!
HEY! Look left just ONE MORE TIME!
There is definetly more to a CS degree than simply being able to program. Other courses in the arts, sciences and languages are usually required. The point of a CS degree is not to produce programmers; it is produce well rounded students who can apply their knowledge to more fields than just computer programming. If you want a quick and easy degree just go to some kind of trade school.
...companies certifications ?
I guess an SAP-certiufied consultant, or a Java-certified developper or an Oracle DBA or whatever else whose company could afford the short but intensive training costs could show quite a worthy piece a paper to a company willing to hire him for specific purposes...
There are also company who claim they'd pay the costs of a complete university degree (MBA, for example) to their best employees, that's why until you actually know what you expect I'd advice you to just impress your chiefs.
BTW, if you are willing to relocate in foreign countries, then I agree you *need* at least a Bachelor to obtain the work VISA.
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Some universities have programs where you can get credit for life experience. Typically you have to submit a proposal, write papers describing how you learned from life experience, and that sort of thing. You can't get a full degree that way, but will take some semesters off of your education.
I'm in the same boat as you are, right now.. I have 3 semesters to go towards a CS degree, but I'm working right now at a consulting firm. A degree is good to have, and I'm sure I've done some things that will count towards life experience.. my current job, past internships, etc.
I can't stress enough how much the core CS classes have helped me. I have a much better understanding of data structures, algorithms, software engineering, etc. than I would have if I'd taught myself those subjects reading books. You may be a different type of learner - I'm just going from personal experience, but I wouldn't skip too much of the core CS. Intro to programming courses don't matter, but don't cheat yourself out of a solid CS theory foundation.
Also, depending what school you go to and what you are planning to do after you graduate, you should think about physics/math requirements. My feeling is that they are outdated and shouldn't be required - some CS programs are still taught as if every grad is going straight into academic research, where these things are of course necessary. In many other careers CS could lead to, you won't ever touch that calc book again.
You might SOL on getting done in 12 months. At best >3 years is what it will take for a bachelors of CS. Just about any accredidated (sp?) school will require non-CS stuff like 2 semesters Physics, Chemistry, history, and the like.
But there are some distance learning stuff that some schools are developing, which might be good and easy to get done quickly, depending on who's giving it.
Beware those distance leraning programs where there's no human interaction (ie, an entire computer based course). I once took a short Java course through one of those - lousy and full of errors. If you were asked to enter some missing text, liek the "String [] args" in the main() sig, using "String[]" as opposed to "String []" (note the space) gets you marked incorrect, not to mention they were full of syntax errors. (Coincidentally, the course was given through a Java-applet)
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
The problem probably won't be the CS classes, if you are a solid programmer already. However, the problem will be the assorted other classes you have to take.
A CS degree (or any degree, for that matter) is not like a certification: it doesn't simply show mastery of one thing, but it demonstrates formal education in several areas, including critical thinking, math, communications (written and verbal), etc., with a specialization in one area (in your case, Comp Sci). You may be a stud programmer, but you will still have to take English, Math, some other basic requirements and some electives. 1.5 years is unreasonable, unless you are going for an Associate's degree, which I wouldn't recommend - it will probably be worthless given your experience.
Having said that, go ahead and spend the time getting your degree. Ignore the people that are sure to be posting ignorant crap about how "I wouldn't want to work at a place that values degrees!! Its just a piece of paper!" Those are, in all likelihood, people that couldn't hack it in college due to a serious lack of social skills, motivation, work ethic, whatever. The basic fact is that in order to advance in the majority of the organizations out there, you have to have some sort of degree.
In all likelihood, you can get your firm to pay for you to get your degree at some local university. Why not take advantage of it and do it right instead of trying to find some way to rush through it?
I don't think you survived the dot-com boom unscathed because you spent six years in college, you were just in the right place at the right time. Don't you think it's a little arrogant to assume that everyone with a degree will get to keep their job and those without them won't? There are people without degrees who are far more talented than you may ever be, and I'm saying that without even knowing you, which is ballsy but justified. :)
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
There's no traditional university that does this. In fact, its not possible to do it in a year. You need 130+ credits to get a CS degree. Maybe in 3 years if you are dedicated, and can work
I really wish there was a place where you could take university quality CS classes in a program geared for working adults that didn't require you to take english, history, or whatever. I don't know of one, however.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
I just got an email offering Bachelors, Masters, and PhDs WITHOUT spending time in a classroom, because it's based on professional experience!!!
Seriously, 1 year is an awefully short period of time, and I would think you would really loose out on a lot of good classes.
Being in the same situation you're in, but having the benefit of following my friends throughout thier CS studies, I would have to say that I'm a lot less optimistic than you.
While you probably already know Universities don't subject you to much to the technology, you can really emerse yourself deeply in the theory.
My advice: If you really want to get the most out of a degree, put some good time in it and specialize in 2-3 related areas, while going for your Masters. Become THE authority in those 2-3 areas, and have the papers to back up your assertions.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
First some background. I have a degree in organic chemistry, and made the jump to computers because the opportunity was there. My salary has since doubled (in three years), I'm heading towards a senior consulting role, my company is paying for 4-5 courses/year (actually eight this year, but it was an exceptional year), and the sky is the limit from my point of view.
Computing is still a field where a degree isn't mandatory. It's possible to get by (and even thrive) on determination and ability, if you're willing to work hard at it. Having a degree is better than not, and having a computing degree is better than another one, but nothing will preclude you from going as far as you want with one caveat--grad school. (more in a minute on that)
As far as the "fast track degrees," if it's the sort that I'm thinking of ("Start A New And Rewarding Career In Computers In Your Spare Time!!!!!") then don't bother! Nobody in their right mind takes them seriously. If you want some paper, take vendor courses and exams and become a "certified" Sun/HP/Linux/Whatever admin. If you can put that on your resume', it'll show more prominently than a degree from Bob's Computer College and Used Car Sales.
The one case where a degree is almost critical is if you want to go on to get a Master's or Doctorate. The problem there is again that a degree from one of these colleges isn't going to help much.
If you feel the need for a degree (and there are very good reasons for it), then take a deep breath, pull out your chequebook, and spend four years at it.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
For CS in particular, any university worth the effort of attending will probably require you to complete the first-year courses in all other sciences - physics, chemistry, biology. Plus first year courses in mathematics. Plus the humanities - literature, humanities, etc. You aren't expected to become an expert in any of these fields, but you should learn enough to be able to recognize when someone is trying to sell you a pack of lies in an election, in a courtroom (as a juror), or as the next-of-kin when a loved one is seriously ill. That's the stuff that ultimately matters, not just knowing how to write LALR(a) grammars.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Hmmm....5 years @ 50% increase per year...that is a total of a 759% increase. If he started at 20K/year he is now making 151K, starting at 30K he is making 227K. At 24 yrs old, I don't think so.
In any case, I don't see how you can complete a CS degree in a year. At 120 credits for a degree (mine was actually like 139), that comes out to 40 classes at 3 credits per class. 20 per semester? Even if you include a full winter and summer schedule (which is probably hard to find), 10 classes in a semester is an impossibility. 2.5 hrs per class per week = 25 hours per week = 5 hrs per day if they are all in a row. Not to mention that there is such a thing as prerequisites for classes, so many of the classes cannot be taken concurrently.
I'm sorry, but this whole "Ask Slashdot" seems just too outrageous to be true.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
If you don't, then knowing all there is to know about your major shouldn't be worth more than, say, half of a degree, from any respectable school. That's because a college degree (undergrad BA/BS level) implies more than passing your major, it implies some degree of general education. It means you've taken the "distribution requirements" in humanities, sciences, etc. That's what distinguishes college from trade school. A college grad should have been exposed to at least a good selection from literature, art, history, economics, and other subjects utterly unrelated to the major. And should be able to write a decent essay, if not a thesis -- literacy is a two way street.
At the grad school level, your work experience and trade ability are more focused. But don't confuse training with education.
I work at a major consulting firm, in a technical group. We're largely a bunch of liberal arts majors who have technical skills. Moving up in consulting requires educational breadth, not depth. At least not the kind of depth you get in college.
...are now scrambling to get one! Ha!
Wait 'til you find out that you'll need to know REAL SUBJECTS like MATH and PHYSICS to get a degree.
You can't just fake your way through life anymore by cutting/pasting other people's Perl scripts.
See folks? You too can get a degree and be an insufferable dickhead to other people!
S.
http://www.stepto.com
... did you know that getting a CS degree has very little to do with PROGRAMMING?
;-). Lots of calculus, and the hideous "discrete structures" courses. ::shudder::
I am in the same boat as you, and when I attended [a state school in Florida well known for computer science], I was surprised that the focus is entirely on the Science of Computing. Sure, some classes require you to know how to program in a certain language, but that is not the focus. The focus is on MATH. At least in the first years (that's as far as I got
In short, I don't see how a human could possibly get a CS degree in one year.
"And like that
of a CS degree, congratulations. As anyone will tell you though, a veneer needs a solid backing to stand on it own. What the backing consists of is the liberal arts (well roundedness), fundamental mathematics (Calculs, Matrix, Discrete, and stat), and exposure to the science and engineering side of the business (logic circuit design, followed by computer architecture).
Even if you have read through many of the senior level texts, you probably didn't fully absorb the subject material without the fundamentals. It is amazing to re address a subject when you have a better grasp of the fundamentals. The subject looks so much clearer.
Now that doesn't mean you can't have a rewarding career as a programmer. Many of your co workers will not have fully grasped the subject material on their degrees, thus putting you on a equal footing. When it comes time for promotions, or finding a new job though you will be much better off with the degree.
...given the position that you're already in, I really don't think a degree will give you any advantage. You've already got plenty of practical real-world experience (THE most important factor), and additional merits to help back that up. A degree really isn't worth anything unless you're just trying to get in the door. In most cases, a degree is a somewhat-acceptable "substitute" for experience - which you are not lacking.
It seems to me that you're already "over the hump" in terms of getting into the industry, and that ANY degree, be it a BS or MS, isn't going to be worth the effort.
My company requires a Bachelors degree to move into the higher levels of our IT organization. This is not because it makes you a better system or network admin but it show two things, you are willing to stick with something (your education) to better yourself and that you know a little more than just how to use a PC.
My CS degree did not come close to preparing me to become a network admin but those years of math taught me good problem solving skills and occasionally I actually do use the Calculus. When getting a degree though you learn about more than just computers, you learn a little literature and history. Although this will not help you program, it does give perspective and rounds out the tech skills. You also may learn a little accounting and business law, skills that you will need as you move up the ladder and need to worry about budgets and personnel issues. These are just a few examples.
A college education is not for everyone but it is a good way to round out your knowledge base and the parties are cool.
As others have said, there comes a point where experience counts more than bits of paper; I don't really see how relevant my degree is now, as my experience has more than surpassed it. Over 90% of what I do is stuff I've learned in the last 4 years, not stuff I did in class.
Strayer University [strayer.edu] is pretty generous with their "life" credit, if you're in the MD/DC/VA area (midatlantic US). I'm doing that route now- I'm a senior level consultant without even an associate's. They accept transfers easily enough, and simply req. that you complete a certain (1 yr, I think, but don't quote me on that) amount of time (which = ca$h to them) in their classes. They started out as a business college, so they have some odd prerequisites (Accounting? Intro to Business???), in addition to whatever your state makes you have for a degree (virginia, frinstance, apparently has decided that all THEIR students must have taken Logic or precalc, Communications 2 & 3, intro to art/music/lit, and other social science courses.)
:)
The *really* cool thing is that they're a Cisco Academy (and have something similar worked out with MS, apparently), so the courses you would take in, say, Computer Networking, are also good for your CCNA.
And no, I don't work for them.
In any event, check some of the border colleges- those that are midway between a "full" university and a community college. You may be suprised.
-- F.S.
I don't know about other universities (though I expect they'd do the same), but Oxford in Britain allows you to get into a MSc compsci program solely on the basis of work experience instead of previous degrees. British schools also has the advantage that a MSc degree only takes 1 year to complete, tuition is far lower than at a US school (because all schools there are public), and there's no requirements for physics, math, or anything except compsci.
I can understand the desire to have a degree, there are institutions that really want you to have that piece of paper that says you're in debt to a student loan processing center. I personally am in a similar situation with only a two year degree (electronics) and 7 years of IT experience. Here's my question though? Why do you want a CS Degree? Really, most employers are looking for *A* degree, it doesn't usually have to be a CS degree perse, especially with your experience.
If you're looking to advance your current career I'd say an MIS Degree (Management of Information Systems) would look better on your resume than a CS Degree.
It's been my experience that CS programs teach people to be programmers. How many CIO's and IT Directors are there that have come from the programming pool? Less than 1/2? Yes, programming is one road into an IT Career, but it certainly isn't the only one, or even the road that is the quickest.
All that said... a Degree isn't like an MCSE, you have to put in some time to get that piece of paper, but it'll be worth the time. Take the three years and learn something that will stick with you, rather than the current flavor of the day programming language.
What if it is just turtles all the way down?
Will you ever _need_ a degree? Once you get some experience under your belt it's not hard to find more jobs (assuming a certain level of talent since you got this job without a degree).
It's already clear that if you are on the bleeding edge then there's not much in school for you, but a college degree is a status symbol. When you're hobnobbing with the bigwigs at a cocktail party, hoping to get some high-dollar consulting work or whatnot, and they ask you where you went to school it comes in handy. Shallow though it may seem, many people will dismiss you if you don't have a college degree.
Your social connections can take you far in IT because so many geeks have no interest or skill in business communication.
Is it because you're making a lot of money? Because you've been programming since you were twelve? Here's a tip: there are plenty of people in college who have plenty of money or have been programming since they were twelve, and they weren't able to skip 3 years of college, why should you?
Know someone who is stealing cable? Report them!
Why is this different from someone asking if there's a fast way to a medical degree for instance?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Well, in my ever so humble opinion...
You've probably already got a good enough track record that to continue doing what you're doing and continuing advancing won't really be a problem. BUT...
Don't just go for a fast-track degree - i.e. don't go for a degree 'cos you need a bit of paper. Do the three or four years. Don't just take classes on the narrow subject that your career is - use university as an opportunity to take a sabattical from the world of work and get a broader knowledge of more things.
Although I went to university after only working for one year, I decided not to take a course that narrowly focused on only technical subjects. I'm a software developer - yet I took a BA degree, not a BSc.
I really enjoyed university, and I'm glad I didn't just race through on a fast track.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
You might try American Institute of Computer Science. I don't know much about it but I'm in the same boat you are and have thought off and on about going here. It's correspondence and to get your degree (from what I remember) you have to be enrolled a minimum of 9 months or so. So you can theoretically get your degree in a short time.
Well, how do I say this while remaining polite? Let me try: I don't buy it.
You're a consultant at a major consulting organization. Fine. However, I deal with people from major consulting organizations just about every day, and while they might have some very practical skills, most of them are pretty mediocre (speaking from a CS point of view) and come from a business background. There's nothing wrong with this in itself, but it's a very different thing than having a CS background. CS teaches you a ton of things which you'll never need in your daily job (especially not in the position you've described yourself as having) but which form the foundations of the Computer Science discipline.
Also, I'm a bit sceptical about your claim that you've read hundreds of CS books. I'm a bit older than you and do have a CS degree and I can not claim that I've read 100s of CS books (maybe 100, but that would probably be stretching it; I may have browsed 100s, but that's not quite the same as reading & understanding them). Things like advanced algorithms, design patterns, compiler design and other related stuff are not light reading and can't be read in a weekend (at least not if you really want to *understand* the stuff they cover). And once you start reading Knuth's books, well, then you should have some serious free time if you want to understand them (despite several tries, I've never actually managed to dig through the entire 1st volume of his AoCP).
I found that duing my CS studies, much of the grueling time spent in my compiler design classes (to name a paricularly 'fun' one), was time well spent. I doubt you could really get the most out of these types of classes without actually doing all the work & projects; this unfortunately takes time. In summary, real CS and the stuff you do at work are probably quite different. Having done Business Process Design (yuck!) or some high level project work is not the same.
Lastly (unrelated to you, since I don't know you), my favorite anecdote from a big-5 consulting organization was a Business Process Design person (native English speaker) who, when I commented on one of his questions "Yes, we have an API for that" replied (with a straight face): "What's an API?". To me this is equivalent of working for Ford, Crysler or BMW and not knowing what a steering wheel is. I'm sorry, but every since that episonde, I have a certain measure of contempt for these people and the major consulting organizations who employ people like that.
Bottom line: I think doing a (serious) CS degree in 1 year is impossible. On the other hand, you may be some sort of genius who can do it in a year, but if you're normal like the rest of us (whatever you consider to be 'normal') you'll need more time to do real CS. It seems like you like the technical field you're in in which case you'll probably find the time spent to get a CS degree well spent.
There is this great misconception that just because one is a great programmer he does not need real training as a computer scientist. This is due to the fact that most people think of a BS in CS as a formal education as a IT worker, so one who thinks he is a great programmer thinks that a BSCS wont really add anything usefull to him, except for the diploma.
The fact is that Computer Science is not only about becoming a IT worker. Its about using computers to solve problems, and about designing these computers to solve this problems. And about understanding and modeling the problems to begin with. There are actually great programmers who are mediocre computer scientists, great computer scientists who are mediocre programmers (usually of the thoretic cs kind), and great it workers who are great computer scientists (and really shitty programmers and Computer Scientists). And since these are different things, that is why it takes about 5 years to graduate a computer scientist.
Sometimes, a programmer who "learned CS" by his own, has acquired many bad habits that he would not have acquired if he had any formal training ("goto statement considered harmfull" comes to mind), and design rules, software engineering, etc. By the other side, self-learned IT professionals have a much more "getting the work done" attitude, and finding things out by himself, which is *extremely* usefull in industry.
So the idea is that one thing complements the other, and yes, it would be nice for anyone who works with technology without a formal training to really spend the time *learning* CS.
Just my 2c.
Well that's just shows how much you know! I've been working at the local hospital for five years now (started practising when I was 12) and I've saved so many lives that I'm an invaluable member of staff. Next year I hope to complete my med degree in 9 months and then open my own surgery.
How we know is more important than what we know.
unfortunatly, just knowing what you know (though it is more then enough to get the job done)
does not offer you an advantage in University. Infact, it may even be a disadvantage to you.
you know a lot of the course material which will help you in many classes, but you will get board.
you have your ways of doing things and profs have their insain ways...profs always win and you will have conflicts with them on how to do a project.
in university, course work is based much more on theory than on reality. what may be the best way to actualy do somthing may not be the way you do it in university becuase you are there to learn thoery of computer science, and theory of programming (why do you think many institutions teach programming in usless laguages..though many are changing and there is debate on if that is wise)
you definatly have the smarts and the knowlege to complete a degree, but there are a lot of profs that do not like people that know what to do because they want the students to do what they are told with little decent or discussion on implementation.
granted there are some nice profs who like to discuss and even allow alternate ways of doing things, but you still get stail cource work that does nothing of any value.
you need a degree, but relise that you will be very board and at times you will get frustrated at the work assignments and the attitues of the profs.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Many people have cited the ability to test out of classes.
Smaller universities are more inclined to bargain with you as well. If you can demonstrate the experience and ability, you can forgo many classes without testing or other red tape.
I've been considering such action myself as there are a few classes that I simply do not need (already knowing my career).
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
Not a fast track, but for those who are serious about getting a degree the Open University is geared towards those who need to study at their own pace. Dunno how it works in the US, but in GB the Open University gives opportunity to lots of people who other wise wouldn't have it - by providing them with a sound study framework, but enabling them to work to their own circumstances.
Check out http://www.open.edu or http://www.open.ac.uk
Dunstan
The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
I know everyone says it can't be possible, but it is, sort of.
... english) you can complete in like a year.
Excelsior University (accredited by Middle States, like almost every other school on the Eastern Seaboard) offers a BS in CIS ( i know not the same but most HR depts don't know the diff and it will get you into grad school).
Now you can complete with a combination of Transfereed credits, credit by examination, life experience, and certifications.
Depending on what you already have (like an associates or bachelors in
www.itdegree.com
www.excelsior.edu
Eagle Scout, the highest rank in Boy Scouts, has to be achieved by the age of 18. To get there, you need to accomplish every other rank before it, some twenty-one merit badges in various subjects, and a self-designed project to benefit the community and demonstrate leadership. Only 2% of American Scouts achieve it, and colleges and jobs actually recognize it -- not because they like Scouting (note: this isn't nearly as impressive after age 25) but because it shows you possess initiative, leadership, and determination, and that you can finish a difficult task set before you.
College degrees have a similar effect. Besides showing that a major university considers you qualified and educated in your field, it proves that you're willing and able to achieve a difficult and long-term goal set before you by yourself. The goal isn't to prove you know your stuff, but to prove you can prove it, and hang in there long enough to impress someone much bigger than your corporate boss.
I have a degree, it comes in useful, it allows you to put letters after your name and looks good on your CV. And I would actually say they were the best 3 years of my life, and I would have no hesitation recommending University to anyone. Although a Degree with no experience is a pain, job experience with a degree will put, maybe, 20% onto your salary.
But if university is not an option have a look here where if your are good enough I suppose you could qualify with a BSc in 2 years, and then go on to an MSc.
Also have a look at the BCS as their qualifications are to degree standard (although you would have *BCS after your name instead).
try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die
If its one thing I've learned after pissing away $20,000 after 2.5 years, its that college has very little to do with the aquasistion of knowledge. What you already know will be of little help, and in fact will make the classes that much more boring. The main thing college CS is designed for is to see how much BS you can put up with, not what you know. This makes it unlikely that you will be able to get out of much more that 1 and a half semesters of classes by cleping out of them.
:/
I finally decided to quit after realizing the majority of the time that I was supposed to be using on doing homework was being used instead by me going info-mining looking for some scrap of new information, especially information the professors and TA's out-right refused to even talk about, even though the information would be on topic for the class.
It seems like University CS departments have become corporate meat-grinders, they just happen to teach a little along the way. I have been told by people in the feild the corps spend about 9 months teaching the grads what they universities _should_ have taught them.
Maybe the diplomas should say "I can put up with 4 years of BS in CS without losing it."
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
Kyrex,
Well this is kind of weird, since I am also 24 and have a BS in Computer and Information Science, as well as being halfway through to a Master of Science in Software Engineering.
Let me get straight to the point: your underlying assumption is incorrect. Having a BS or BA in Computer Science will give you no more advantage than you already have! Don't get me wrong, it is an invaluable asset to me - but in my experience the main benefit of having the degree is the fact that you will come out of the institution with the ability to research and learn new languages easily - this is what they teach you after all! In the IT field, new technologies emerge annually. The degree will enable you to use these new technologies as if you were an "old hand" and had been using them for years.
In terms of salary or competitive advantage, the Master's degree will most certainly give you both a $20k salary boost and a position above the peons in most any company.
Just my $.02. Anyone else agree/disagree?
I'm a 2000 man.
I've seen the University of Arizona, and get spam (paper and electron) from them quite often. But one of my more highly educated friends pointed out - You get more than book learning and lectures in college - you get interaction, interpersonal skills, and life experiences everyone is supposed to have in college (Sexual exploration, drug exploration, personal exploration, more sexual exploration, personal sexual exploration..)
I was a math/physics major, spent about half of my career in scientific or engineering shops, and I think I've used calculus to solve a problem once in 20 years.
But I use it every day. Not directly, but the skills I developed in those classes map well to the skills required to write robust code. Maybe there are other ways to develop those skills, but for now the best correlation appears to between math and coding, with juggling/coding a promising lead.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
I have family members who have degrees in CS or are Computer scientists with Phd. If you love programming and can pick up theory on your own, then spending 1-3 years on a degree may not be the right choice. If on the other hand you feel a desire to learn advance computer science topics as others have mentioned, then a degree is likely to be beneficial.
My own criteria for "to degree or not to degree" is purely internal and has nothing to do with "will I reach a ceiling without a degree." If you're not getting the degree to fullfill a deep desire, then forget it. Having gone to grad school, advanced degrees require a lot of "butt kissing" and bs. Ask anyone with an advanced degree and they will tell you.
Whether or not to get a degree also depends on where you live. If you live on the west coast, degrees are secondary. If you live on the east coast and want to work for a large financial institution, then getting a degree is pretty important. In the end, you have to ask yourself, "will all this matter when I am 80?"
Trying to find a short cut to getting a degree tells me you should seriously question your motivations first and find out exactly why you should even consider getting a degree.
It's been about 6 years now, and I'm starting to get the itch to finish my last year of school, but due to still needing/wanting to work, it's not possible for me to go back to the original school. ( I went to RPI in New York, and currently work in Chicago area, so the commute would be hell ).
I started looking into local schools that I could attend to finish up. Most wanted me to attend them for at least 4 semesters before they'd grant a degree, and then there's the problem of transferring credits from one school to another, etc. I finally found a school that would let me finish the way I wanted. DePaul University ( a respected institution ) has a School for New Learning. That allows adults who previously skipped or ( like me ) never completed college to apply whatever previous college credit they have, along with taking into account your work experience, towards a BA degree. You can also continue on in the same manner towards an MA as well.
DePaul is located in the Chicago area, but it is quite possible that similar programs exist near you. If you haven't finished a degree yet, but have several years of experience in your industry, this type of program definitely seems the way to go.
---
Segmentation Fault ( core dumped )
This is absolutely correct. Your BS or Bachelor of Science indicates that you have completed a certain set of requirements relatively common across all types of degrees that indicate they are of this type. For me, this included a few Chemistry classes, a few Physics classes, a good many Mathematics classes, various humanities and social science classes (various psychology classes, a literature class on Sci-Fi, and quite a few foreign language courses in my case) as well as classes in other disciplines such as Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering (logic gates, anyone?) to name but a few.
As was mentioned above, you may be a crack programmer, but that's not all that's required for a degree, which is why you need a degree to continue to progress on your career ladder. The tasks that most probably await you will require certain degrees of critical thinking that are enhanced with the variety of non-CS classes that are required for the BS degree.
Another thought: do you have any degree? I assume you do not, but if you *did* many CS Masters programs (for example that at Chicago's DePaul University) will allow you to either take or test through a variety of core classes that essentially determine if you have what it takes for the Masters courses, if so - you're home free and on your way to your Masters. If not, you simply take the classes you need (shouldn't take more than a couple semesters) and then you're on your way. Again, I believe this only works if you have an undergraduate degree of some sort already.
I see the significance of understanding that which I don't already, and I want to take some night courses. Can anyone who has read through the three volumes point me in the direction of relevant math courses to take? I'm not interested in an entire computer science degree, or any degree for that matter. I'm interested in enlightenment.
Well gee- my company had an accross the board 15%
cut recently - something about trying to stay afloat in
a rotten market. That follows a freeze left over
from last year, so that is two years without a raise, and
this year the showed me how much they love me by taking
15% back (canceling out the raise from 2 years ago.
As for Dr. Cosby - he holds and EARNED Phd in
children's education.
Have you compiled your kernel today??
(The parent was moderated down as flamebait, and rightfully so)
Wait 'til you find out that you'll need to know REAL SUBJECTS like MATH and PHYSICS to get a degree.
Figured it out already. Also have figured out how much of that I use in real life. Nada. I sometimes use the tech writing part, but that's about it. Calculus? Useless to me. Thermodynamics? Pointless. If it wasn't for the valuable life lessons I learned in college (like don't mix beer and liquor), I can pretty much count it a waste.
Don't get me wrong, I wish you the best, but I like how the world cycles around and Degrees are important once again.
Are they now? Funny that no one in my particular programming shop has one (well, maybe one person), and we're all doing quite well. That's due to the fact we do our jobs with a high level of quality, not because we have some piece of paper on our walls.
I spent 6 years in college, and they were well spent. I survived the dot-com boom unscathed, never been unemployed one day in my life, and I get to do cool stuff.
Just by the mere fact you used "cool stuff" in a sentence indicates you're a young pup. I've never been unemployed a day in my working life that wasn't by choice, and actually even those days were paid for by vacation. No degree, just lots of experience.
Some day you're going to come to the same realization that a lot of people have, and that's that your little piece of paper has very little to do with your career. It's the experience you gain and the choices you make. Sure, that paper may get you in a few places more than without it. However, if you don't have the savvy, the work ethic, or the experience to handle the job, that piece of paper will be following you right out the door.
Electronic Frontier Foundation for online civil rights information
I've said it before, and I'll say it again; most computer work is a trade, and should be dealt with in a master/apprentice function, with a guild.
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and it has definitely had an impact on my career. Let me explain:
I'm 44 and am currently where I've been for the past 5 years, IT manager for a small manufacturing company. I took some of the first computer classes US high schools offered, way back in 1974-76 when programming projects got sent out to the local bank's mainframe for compilation and execution. My first IT job was as programmer trainee for a small service bureau too cheap to pay a living wage (thus no one with any training or experience would touch them) where I stayed for a year and a half, working on IBM S/34 minicomputers. Did my first microcomputer work on CP/M systems (Exidy Sorcerer! Woo-hoo!) and IBM Datamasters in '77 or '78. From there to another S/34 shop, then to a larger one that was both bleeding edge in PCs and networking as well as moving to the (then new) IBM S/38. Worked on S/34, S/38, Apple II & III, CP/M, and IBM PC systems there for 8 years, then moved to a larger company using IBM AS/400 and more PCs with networking, in a mixed mainframe/mini/PC environment over an international WAN. Consulted for a while, now here. I have extensive mainframe, minicomputer and PC experience, program in a bundle of languages (including C, Java, a variety of aassemblers, etc.), and my networking goes back to Banyan Vines and Lantastic days, not to mention early X.25, etc. I'm no computer god by any means, but I've been around and always got excellent or outstanding reviews.
I never noticed lacking a degree until I turned 35 or so -- and why should I have? Most companies discourage the sharing of salaries. I was happy to be making a good wage and didn't know until later that my peers were getting 20% more than I was, even with half my experience. For a variety of reasons I'm not terribly thrilled where I am but I believe I'm pretty well stuck here: in two years of searching I've found very few companies interested in my skills and experience. When I go for a job in competition with someone a few years out of college, just married or no family, I lose every time, long before anyone gets to talking about salaries. At my age, lack of a degree is almost a poison pill in my career -- so much so that I'm currently attending college to get one, something I should have done long ago (if I could have afforded to.) When I was just out of high school, college aid was a lot harder to get than it is today and I couldn't afford college on my own (and stepfather was blunt: don't even ask me to cosign a tuition loan, kid. Oh, and when are you moving out? Saturday good for you?) Now, take advantage of what's out there and get a degree. Any degree: CS is obviously best if that's the career you want but any degree is better than none.
I faced an almost identical problem recently but managed to work around going back for (another) BS. Assuming you have a bachelors (which you imply through ommission, making a point of having "no formal CS education"), getting into and finishing a Master's program is probably your ideal path.
This is, in fact, not terribly difficult. Most programs don't exactly leep for joy over people with primarily work experioence, but if you are willing to take 4-6 undergrad level classes, or demonstrate competence in them by test) and can do reasonably well on the GRE Computer Science Subject Test (brush up on your theory!), you can get into mid-range schools without a lot of difficulty.
There are quite a few benefits of going straight to a master's degree as well: an MSCS is *very* respected on a resume, managers generally give more credit to a Master's than it warrants (unless they have one, and MBA's don't count), it is generally a much shorter program (9-12 classes compared to 24-32 for a BS) and doesn't force you to take the assorted crap you are not interested in (disclaimer: I hold an undergrad degree in English, and believe in a LA education, if done right it is the best thing for you - most people use the flexibility to avoid challenge though, and they discredit it), and finally, the MS classes tend to be a whole lot more interesting than undergrad classes, and the students and profs are a lot more interested in learning/teaching than the typical undergrad.
I wish you luck.
-Frums
Looks like somebody needs to go back to school. You're taking exponents, not halves. 4 + 50% = 6
6 + 50% = 9
9 + 50% = 13.5
13.5 + 50% = 19.25
Still fairly respectible, but not quite exponential.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
And not a degree in Software Engineering? When I went to school only a few places had SE degrees and I was unaware of the differences. But based on my experiences, I think a program with less theory (not that theory is bad, I use it almost daily)and more on applications and processes would be better suited to someone with lots of experience. There is, it seems, a tendency for CS projects to be built in isolation while SE explicitly focuses on a team concept (and business processes as well), much more useful. If there is a good SE program available near your location you may want to look into it before going CS.
.02 USD.
As an analogy, CS is to SE as Physics is to Mechanical or Electrical Engineering.
my
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Even with the prospect of a few years of school, I would still pursue it. I'm graduating with a degree in Electrical Engineering in May. I'm 39 years old, I've worked in the industry for years and I felt the same way that you do about my future job prospects. I managed to work between 30 and 40 hours a week (I have an understanding employer), go to school full time and maintain a 3.2 GPA. No, it's not easy, but the rewards could be worth it...I have a great job waiting for me at the end.
You presume that because you have are good at computer programming, you can easily finish a CS degree in one year - in essence, you propose that you know pretty much all that a CS major knows. But what is taught in a CS degree is FAR DIFFERENT than what you know having programmed for however many years. This also is precisely the reason why your advancement potential MAY be limited because you DON'T have a CS degree - the business world recognizes the difference.
This has been said already in this forum, but I think it worth pointing out again.
The difference between tech school and college is tech school teaches you how to do a particular task, and college teaches you how to think about things.
When you go to college and take your first CS class, I think you'll be surprised at how inapplicible all your years of on-the-job programming experience actually are. A real CS program at an accredited school is not interested in churning out programmers which will succeed in the business world, as would be a tech school. Rather, they are interested in producing individuals who have the capacity to solve problems which haven't been even described yet. People who can look at a problem and see multiple ways to solve it. People that are adaptable.
Of course, schools don't always succeed in this lofty task, but that's not the point. The thing for you to remember is that higher education, in and of itself, is worth quite a lot more than the piece of paper you get at the end. Do not take a college CS class and worry yourself with, "how will this class help me in my next job," you will drive yourself nuts. The benefits are a little more abstract than that, but also more rewarding.
I really shouldn't be one to talk: I don't have a degree myself. I attended University of Minnesota pursuing a IT/CS degree for 2 1/2 years before getting lured into the business world, never to return and finish my degree. I can tell you this though, the knowledge I gained from my time in college definitely, without question, puts me ahead of those people with only tech school or no higher education.
DaC
If you have no college degree at all, then this advice won't help.
...
But
If you have a bachelor's degree in anything, and your application looks decent (good enough undergraduate GPA and/or good real life experience), you might be able to get into a graduate program in computer science.
I was accepted by the University of Wisconsin at Madison's program with a B.S. in Physics and an M.S. in Math. My fellow graduate students had bachelor's degrees in English, teaching, French, all sorts of stuff. The department head's bachelor's degree was in philosophy. Later (at Bell Labs), I worked for a guy with an M.S. in CS, and a B.A. in French horn (music). All of us had programming experience as undergraduates, some classroom based, some not.
The UW CS program was tailored to this. There were a number of senior/graduate level classes; it was common to take a full semester of those, "catching up" on topics such as operating systems, compilers, and database management systems. (But we were expected to learn C from a couple of evening sessions, and our hands weren't held learning Unix, either.)
Forget the theory/practice dichotomy if you go to the right school. We learned a lot of theory. We also wrote many thousands of lines of C and Pascal code (back in the day when the Bell Labs "portable" C compiler was 5,000 lines long).
Two caveats:
This was back in 1979-1981. I expect CS graduate programs still take good candidates with bachelor's degrees in other subjects, but I can't guarantee it.
We worked hard. (I made a lot of 3 a.m. trips for donuts, and to the Coke machine in the student ACM lounge.) Don't think you can do this part time in a year!
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
The American Institute for the Computer and Information Sciences is a correspondence based school. The curriculm in my experience is well thought out and the quality of the education is top notch. It is a completely rounded degree (meaning it is more than a simple programming school) and I have found that businesses tend to treat it like any other degree. I highly reccomend it in your case. It will grant credit based on "life experience" to recognize the value of the experience you have already gained.
http://www.accis.edu
Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
As for the liberal arts aspect of the degree, most liberal arts professors are pretentious assholes who will pass you as long as you don't disagree with their interpretation of the works you're studying.
Where on earth did you get such a glaringly wrong idea like that? I never met a liberal arts professor who failed me because I disagreed with them.
I highly doubt that it's possible to complete a cs degree in 1 year. The number of cs courses alone that I have to take for my degree would fill a solid 2 years (at 12 courses per year) if I were to take nothing else. Most schools would require some amount of math/science and liberal arts as well (I would hope!). But good luck in your search for it...
--
silence is poetry.
At Windsor, it is not focused on programming. I have ONLY had 3 REAL programming classes. And even though you may be able to easily get credit / pass these classes, it is the others that will set you back a few years.
These classes include topics that I am sure you are knowledgeable: data types; induction and recursion and some that you may not: algebraic characterization; syntax; semantics; formal logic; soundness, completeness, and decidability; specification, implementation, and determinism; complexity
And that is the first class. A quick list of other non-programming topics:
Computer Languages, Grammars, and Translators
Including: both pragmatic and theoretical aspects of grammars, recognizers, and translators for computer languages. Regular languages: regular expressions, regular grammars, finite-state machines (automata), regular language recognizers, automatic regular-language-recognizer generator: lex. Context-free languages: context-free grammars and pushdown automata (stack machine), LL grammars and top-down recognition and parsing: LL(1) and recursive-descent parsers, LR grammars and bottom-up recognition and parsing: LR(0), SLR(1), LR(1), and LALR(1) parsers. Automatic context-free-language parser generator: YACC. Attribute grammars, syntaz-directed translation, computer-language processors: interpreters and compilers.
Theoretical Foundations of Computer Science
Including: propositional logic, first order logic, proof techniques, mathematical induction, sets, operations on sets, relations, operations on relations, functions, countable and uncountable sets, basic definitions in graph theory, connectivity, isomorphism of graphs, trees, Euler graphs, Hamilton graphs, planar graphs, graph colouring
File Structures
Including: performance differences between primary and secondary storage; secondary storage devices; fundamental file structures; sequential files; indexing; B trees; B+ trees; index sequential files; hashing; sorting and searching techniques on secondary storage devices.
Computer System Organisation
Including: Examination of the fundamentals of modern computer organization and architecture. Historical development. The computer system in terms of interconnection structures, memory, I/O and operating system software. CPU structure and function, including numeric representations, instruction sets, addressing modes and formats. Control unit. Alternate architectures and performance enhancement.
Those are just the basic classes that you need to know before you can take the challenging stuff. This is on Top of the "other" classes you must take, The Maths (Calc, Alg, Stats, Fundamentals of Math) your Social Sciences, etc.
But don't worry about all of that, you will have those 3 programming classes out of the way!
But I managed to sneak my 8-credit subject exam in chemistry in for their dumb chem class. I guess the secretary liked me.
Iowa State's engineering program also would not accept clep for any science exams - just liberal arts credits.
Stupid policies. Inane schools. I don't miss them.
You'll quickly find out that computer science has very little to do with programming. When I did my CS, some of the better programmers flunked out and went into other things.
:))
Computer Science is about science. Pure and simple. It's about mathematics and theory. To many CS people, Calculus is a breeze. Or what I call "The Easy Math" that is usually required in first year. You'll take as much (if not more) math in your CS degree. Subjects like logic, set theory, finite mathematics, linear algebra, number theory, etc. On their own, these courses can be easy.... but if you have 5 or 6 other courses, programming assignments that you work on until 3am, and all the other things in Univerity, you quickly begin to have respect for computer science grads.
Of course this depends on the school
As a mathematician-turned-programmer who's also been programming since the age of 12 (which adds up to a few more years total in my case) and as somebody who's seen a LOT of badly written code in my time, I can tell you that a couple of years' worth of college-level mathematics courses will make you a much better programmer. Here's a few courses you should definitely have under your belt:
* Calculus (usually 3 semesters)
* Linear Algebra
* Discrete Mathematics (generally a mixed bag with some combinatorics and graph theory)
and of course any prerequisites to the courses above that you didn't get in high school.
In addition, here's some courses that would be useful, some in particular areas:
* Abstract algebra
* Number theory
* Geometry (not high-school geometry)
* Real analysis (sometimes called advanced calculus)
Good luck--it'll be worth it.
Really interesting! I'm in the same exact situation... I started programming at a young age (10 yrs old) and now I'm 25. I went to school in the medical field, so I don't have a formal CS degree... although I am employed as a software developer, I am going to need advancement in my career soon.
Since I've been doing this since a child, all those programming years in my mind count toward my total experience. I truly *know* how these systems work, probably more than somebody with a degree, simply on the principle that I'm self taught and had to discover how these systems work, rather than being told how they work.
Believe it or not, but in my daily experiences with CS professionals, self taught individuals are usually more competent and knowledgeable than those with formal CS education.
I'm hoping to find a fast track to a degree also.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
There are a lot of aspects to the field that haven't changed much in the last 20-30 years. For example:
Schools should zero in on stuff that doesn't change, and leave OSI, Linda, M68000 asm, Encore Multimax Unix, and all the rest of that useless cruft that I had to learn completely out of the curriculum.
In Finland, the higher education system has been designed so that there are no minimum residence requirements, nor do you have to attend classes in most CS courses. The record time for a Master's degree at the Helsinki University of Technology is about two years. A significant percentage of CS students go to work the year round. Despite claims to the contrary, the system seems to work well for the best students, giving them a combination of theoretical and practical knowledge. Alternatively, you could get 2 degrees simultaneously, etc. After all, why sit in classes if you think you can study more productively at home reading a book? Studies have shown that hearing somebody talk is an extremely ineffective way of disseminating knowledge.
The one thing I learned in college that seems to place me above other programmers is the Math. I went to Clarkson, which is a heavy EE school, and the dif-EQ and statistics classes taught me things that I use in everyday programming that other devlopers just do NOT understand. Mostly in analyizing performance statistics etc...
Krispy Cream is people
I completely agree.. I did not complete my engineering degree, but the time I spent working on it was very valuable nonetheless. Any Joe Coder can read CS books and gain the necessary intelligence to do a job, but a good university program also teaches you the wisdom to know how and when to apply what you've learned. Some of this can be learned by practical on-the-job application, but I tend to find that people with an engineering/science degree tend to find their niche in a new position faster than someone self-taught. A self-taught coder tends to learn how to do things well "their way" and has difficulty adapting to the requirements of a client or maintaining focus on a project not directly in their line of focus. Of course, these are enormous generalizations and will vary widely depending on the nature of the person, but this is my experience.
In addition, the engineering classes I took weren't really valuable for the formulae and math. I found them valuable for the problem-solving skills they taught. I don't believe even science degrees approach this sort of problem solving, and I find that those with some sort of engineering background (or a "hard" science like Physics) generally make for better programmers, administrators and architects of IT shops.
For the work environment, be purely practical in your pursuit of education.
I have a CompE degree; I am also an Oracle OCP. The Oracle credentials offer much higher salaries - no two ways around it.
Oracle doesn't teach you much about metaphysics, literature, history, or communication though. You may find yourself needing some of these subjects.
ps - Do budget major augmentations to your skillset every five years, either way.
If you started out a normal starting rate, it means you're making almost 300k/year.
Anybody out there in the real world care to comment how likely that a 24 year old w/ no CS degree is taking home 150/hour as a consulting rate nowadays? Now you want a CS degree in one year? I think ./ got trolled.
In my experience, CS degrees don't always result in someone that can efficiently program practical applications. I work in the IT "online" department of a major telecommunications company. We have a fairly large staff of developers programming in a variety of languages, and while most (if not nearly all) have degrees, most of those degrees are not in computer science.
In fact, our most prominent developers and those in the higher architectural positions either have engineering degrees or some of the more difficult science degrees like physics.
CS, as a science degree, teaches you the science behind computing, as you state. It shows you different algorithms for solving problems, but is largely theoretical in nature and heavy in math. In the real world, you need to know a lot more than this to apply your work efficiently to real-world applications, and I find that engineering degrees tend to breed people that are better at applying what they've learned to build something efficient and robust than scientists do.
The bottom line: Knowing the science behind programming is not enough. You need to be strong in areas that promote efficiency and application in order to use what you know. Otherwise you will forever be a programmer at the bottom of the corporate food chain.
My two cents, anyway. Your experiences may vary.
Used to be that the grandaddy of the "non traditional" degrees was Regents College, now Excelsior College. They give extensive credits for "life experience" and also offer a number of exams under ACT:PEP.
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
You're best doing it remotely, via post and internet and so on. The UK's Open University are experts at this - http://computing.open.ac.uk/home/
If you can find something like this near you - (actually I'm assuming you're an american - the OU itself generally is only open to EU citizens) it's perfect, because they are aimed at people who, for whatever reason, did not take a conventional undergrad degree. So they wil be interested in the fact that you have years of prcatical experience.
But it will take time. There's a reason undergrad degrees take 3 years - that's how much work there is in them. It'll take longer afterwards.
I think also you are possibly underestimating the importnace of your considerable experience! By which I mean, you may be surprised at how much of a CS degree will be entirely new to you.
One last suggestion - must it be a CS degree? Would, for example, an MBA work for you (anyone know if you can take those without a first degree?)
I ask as if you've got the Math you can probably leverage almost any undergrad degree into a Masters in CS. If all you want is the paper, then be prepared to fight dirty.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
i would be interested in your perspective on the contrasts between this and a traditional education? how are group projects conducted? does this type of education impact the communication skills that would develop more naturally in an environment with more interaction?
for example: as an undergrad every class in my major had a group projet of sorts and a lot of them had presentations also. while this doesnt really apply directly to my major, it is important in the real world where you have to work with others.
-- john
Doh! Semantics on the exponent point, and very true on the math point. I abase myself before you. :-)
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Algoma University is fully accredited and affiliated with Laurentian University in Canada. (Yes, I work for them. ;)
Jason.
College, hard? Explain to me then how so many manage to squeak by drunk then?
It *can* be hard, but it doesn't have to be hard. The only way to actually know the value of a particular degree is to know the school and to see the transcript. The piece of paper, the letters after the name, mean nothing in themselves. That's the problem.
The University of Maryland University College, which I attend, has something called the Excel Program. Basically, it is a 3 hour class that will help you write a paper describing what you have done in your career and how it relates to the school's classes. A committee reviews your paper, and you can earn up to 27 credits plus 3 for the class, for a total of 30. That is about a quarter of the 120 you need for you degree. In addition, CLEP tests for your basic English, History, and Science courses can speed things up, at the cost of about $50 per test. Also, for more advanced courses (say, at the 300 and 400 level) you can take departmental exams for a course. Basically, you take the final exam, and if you get a C or higher, you get the credits, but no grade. They cost something too, but I forget how much right off hand. Doing all that has gotten 3 years of school crammed into 2 for me, and I almost have my BS in Information Systems Mgmt.
BigCat79
"The dead have risen and are voting Republican!" --Bart Simpson
It may be a bit off topic, but the question I keep asking is "will getting paid more make you happy or happier?" Recently, I relocated to the east coast and found the a lack of a Bach CS degree was hindering my job hunt. Luckily, I'm employed again. Even though I read up on AI, algorithms, electrical engineering, distributed processing and other advanced theories on my own, I know my knowledge is still missing huge gaps. I considered getting a MS in CS, but finally decided it wouldn't make me any happier. The clincher was the realization I don't have what it takes to "play the politics game." I love programming and plan on coding the rest of my life (though not as a career). The thought of "kissing butt" for 2-3 years makes me cringe, so the choice was obvious. Plus, would you want to work for a company that cares more about a piece of paper than what you have to offer?
The argument that a degree is a better assurance of qualifications for a company is flawed on two fronts.
1. if the person interviewing you can't tell your skills without a degree, they probably don't understand the technical problems in the first place. Do you want to work for/with people who don't know?
2. As others have mentioned, people with advanced degrees trained in research have a different mind set than a programmer. Individuals great at both research and application development are rare. Each job requires a different way of thinking and working. You may want a researchers opinion about the architecture, but at the low levels an experienced programmer is what you need.
I'd look for a 5 year program that gives you a B.S. in Business and an MBA. This is probably the best way to 'round out your studies.
I went to the University of Chicago for this program. Back when I attended (graduated about two years ago), it was a master's program targeting "professionals." It accepted people with and without undergrad CS degrees. If you didn't have an undergrad CS degree, then you had to take a summer immersion course (which included Discrete Math, C++, and Haskell). I imagine that the program has changed since I've been there, though.
The program was actually a lot better than I thought it would be, and it gave a good foundation in theory and practical experience. Thanks to the traditions at U of C, there was sufficient pounding of theory and such, but since it was a professional program, there were lots of practial things taught. Keep in mind, two years ago, I had a class where I was exposed to UML, RUP, EJB, CORBA, and Servlets, which has helped my career immensely.
Don't get me wrong, there were definitely some people in there that didn't belong, and I just shudder at the thought that they are in the work force, now, armed with the same degree I have. It's a program that offers good opportunities for those who are willing to take it. I didn't have as good of a tech background back then as I do, now, and I believe that those with a better background will get more out of the program and faculty (duh).
Here's a link to the curriculum.
and pasting for lazy folks ;-)
The program was originally designed to be finished in one year. I'd agree with some of the other sentiment that one year isn't enough time to go through a good CS program. I think you need time to focus and learn some of the core concepts that might be new to you, and there's something to be said for just having time to digest things. I've learned that my understanding of things will improve just with time.
One final note, though, is that the program is hella expensive. Think normal private university tuition. So, you have to decide if it's worth it or not.
If all you have are silver bullets, everything looks like a werewolf.
When I started in CS, I thought the same thing. I'd writen my first Basic program on a Sinclair 1000 when I was around 5 or 6. I think, for the most part, I didn't really pick up any substantial amount of new information in my first three years, with perhaps the exception of Calculus (wasn't offered at my highschool... Long story)... I had, however, spent much of my highschool career "home sick" reading university level texts.
:) were, for the most part, fun, informative, and packed with things I didn't know. I can now prove not all true statements are proovable, or that there are certain non-finite strings of 1s and 0s that you can't generate, that there are well defined problems you can't compute the answer to, irrespective of how much computing power you have. I know vastly more about distributed an parallel computing and how to construct efficient algorithims for either. I know how to prove that a specific problem takes a minimum amount of time to compute the answer to, and therefore, there is a point at which you cannot create a faster algorithim to solve it. I know stupidly more about algorithim analysis than I ever did before. Try and pick a university or college with a strong course on software design, too, because even a lot of the computer engineering guys at work have a hard time with software design.
My fourth year, however, (and all the fourth year courses I took as electives in first through third years
If you don't know what "big O" notation is, or what an ALU is (Arithmetic Logic Unit - but what is it and how does it work?), or what the stack is, how dynamic memory is allocated, or the difference between microcode and machine code, then you've still got lots of second/third year level stuff to learn too.
There's a lot out there that you won't learn from "amateur" programming (or at least, there was a lot I didn't learn). For those courses that you don't think you need to take, Canadian universities will let you "challenge" the course, which means you just sit the final exam, you don't actually need to go to classes. It's a little... dangerous... since your entire mark is based on a single exam, as opposed to two exams and usually some assignments. You have a bad day, you fail the course, which is no good. Still, for first year stuff, it's probably your best route.
How are you ?
When I discovered this web site, I immediately thought of you.
You're in a harry, I promise you will love it!
Get a College Degree in Days!
I've recently graduated from CMU with a CS degree. My senior year we wrote a kernel, a filesystem and a shell (or about 90% of an operatiing system).
That class alone killed about 40 hours a week, so while you might be able to learn Pascal at your local community college in a year, don't expect to get a world class education like you would at MIT or CMU in 1 year, no matter how many books you've read.
Most of my classes involved minimal programming, and a lot of theory (OS being the exception). Have you read a lot of books on probability, set theory and matrix algebra? Have you read any books on modern math? Algorithms (which involved no programming, all proofs)? NFA's and DFA's? Context Free Grammers?
I had a Java reference book and a C reference book while I was at CMU, every other book was theoretical.
It's not just a particular set of skills that employers want, but the education itself (and for some entry positions, it's a measure of whether the person is willing to do what it takes).
It is likely that it doesn't even matter whether he gets a degree in CS or English, but that he completes an education. It is common to go to graduate school without a degree in the same subject--and in many cases, it's beneficial. (I never took economics at an undergraduate level).
Finally, if he's serious about the master's degee later, no serious graduate program will take a one year degree calling itself a bachelor's seriously. It's just not going to happen.
hawk, professor
Then there are distribution courses. For CS you need about 80 credits of other stuff, compared to around 40 for your concentration. It breaks down like this: 7 credits each of social science, humanities, natural science, plus 3 more credits in three of these categories: natural science, humanities, social science, math, creative expressing. You must have 4th semester proficiency in a foreign language. You have to take two writing classes, one involving several substantial papers. And there are several other requirements.
Point is, I think it is tough. You don't seem to have much respect for degrees since you're doing well without one, so this kind of program probably isn't a good option. I would just look for a really shitty school that will do anything to get students. It may be worthless, but a degree from a crappy school doesn't matter once you've proved yourself with experience.
Not having a degree will become a big problem though, so maybe you should just take a few years off and enjoy yourself in college. At my internship this summer the company had a guy who didn't have a degree who had been working as a contract employee for 14 years. He was making substantially less in salary and had much much worse benefits. It is nearly impossible to hire non-degree tech people at many companies, and you may want to apply to one of those companies someday. So just think this: Drinking and girls. Take 4 years off and do it right (can do three years if you go for 2 summer sessions, maybe less 2.5 if you take heavy courseloads).
Here is a great example of this...
I know someone that is leading a team that have been contracted in through one of their suppliers. He is someone that has a high school diploma and has been working in the field for several years.
The contracted help, they are fresh from college, top of their class supposedly. These guys are so well rounded that when they program the application they completely ignore common key combinations for normal tasks. They also change the function of key combinations based upon which window or sub-window you have opened.
I am unfamiliar with the project and application myself. However, I can suggest an excellent example. It would be like using CTRL-X for copy and then when you switch to the next window CTRL-X deletes the data in the screen.
He had hoped to have seasoned programmers on his team. Unfortunately, his contracting vendor didn't see any logic in having grizzled veterans on the team. They felt that young college graduates, still drunk from that final graduation kegger, would be the best people for the job. Now, they are a bit behind and may need to toss out the whole code-base, all because of college trained coders that learned how they were supposed to code.
Basically, my point is you could say that there are terrible programmers that come out of college and there are terrible programmers that never took a college course. There are also excellent programmers with and without degrees. It mostly depends on the person you are talking about.
As for turning out well-rounded people. That is not any college's job. That job belongs to the family that raised the college student. Colleges exist for two things. One, to give people a good base knowledge on a variety of subjects. Two, they are there to make money, which they typically do by demanding courses that have nothing to do with a degree.
While I was growing up, instead of ignoring me and letting me raise myself. My mother, while working two jobs, took myself and my sister to museums and read books with us and showed me some of the things that she was learning in college. Due to her commitment to myself and my sister, we have both ended up being rather well-rounded individuals.
So, when you have children, it is up to you to mold them into well-rounded people. Do not expect or even ask your school system or local college to do that for you. Unless, you want to go around blaming Canada because your kid learned how swear...
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If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
I suggest pursuing a degree, but a non-CS degree. What *really* interests you? Engineering, biology, medicine? You purport to have the programming down, why do you want a piece of paper reaffirming that?
Being a programmer these days is like walking into a job interview and saying "I can speak English." Well, so what? How can you apply that? Learn something to do with your skills, lots of jobs out there require a [biology, engineering, business] background to do the programming. A good number of those 4 year college grads didn't take any of the programming classes. You ought to be able to take one of those jobs with the proper background.
And if you want to take the fast track, at least get an Associates Degree. Two years isn't that bad.
1. Go to a trade school, test out the courses you know.
2. Find a college that no longer exists, then lie
3. Go talk to your local univarsity.
You need to remember getting any degree requires courses outside you speciality(english, history, etc,etc,etc...)
or buy one of those degrees of eBay. I have 6!
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Ok, it's in New York State. but. here's something you may very well be able to look into somewhere. Empire State College -- which is a fFully accredited part of the State Universities of New York (SUNY) -- offers credit fFor classes and experience acquired in the working world.
like, let's say you have taken some certification in your working history fFor, let's say, an MCSE. ok, your counseller will evaluate this certification and how it applies to the degree you are hoping to attain. then, they apply a certain amount of credit hours towards your degree.
yes, this assumes you are in New York. but i would think maybe other states might have a similar program somewhere.
For last year's commencement, we invited several "pioneering alumni"--folks who came shortly after the campus was created, and are now retired.
A few were seated in the row behind me. One commented that he'd learned more in the first year out of school than in the four years put together.
I turned around and asked, "but how much of that would you have learned *without* those four years?"
He grinned, and replied, "Exactly."
It's not the facts, it's the thinking. The general liberal education is more important than the details in your major.
hawk
Try RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology). I'm in a similar position as you (young, pretty well paid, no degree). RIT has a few very good degree programs online (none in CS specifically), including one with an Applied Computing concentration, which is what I am about 1 year away from completing. The school is reputable, the education is extremely good, and you might be able to CLEP through a lot of it. They also have Graduate degrees of sorts.
http://online.rit.edu
At least it keeps you from being held hostage by a school for 4 years. You can work at the same time.
As a developer with good skills but relatively few years of documented experience (having been on the job market for only around 3-5 years or so) and no degree, I can say that getting a job really isn't that hard.
Even if my present employer were to lay me off (unlikely -- they're in good financial shape and I wrote a significant chunk of their internal software), I have standing offers from two sources (a friend who owns a consulting company and a fellow who owns a car dealership and is interesting in developing custom software) and two more which may have become stale.
These open positions aren't in the Bay Area (where I am now) but a few hundred miles north, in the area of Chico (a delightful little college town with a fantastic atmosphere and a refreshingly low cost of living).
Let me tell you a little story, by the way. My current employer hires "interns" at a fairly lousy pay rate, requires them to finish their degrees, &c. However, most of their best tech staff has no degree -- and one fellow (a fairly prominant MIPS developer with a fair bit of framebuffer experience) they recently hired full-time without so much as completion of a high-school diploma.
Good jobs are still to be had -- one just has to know the right people and have the right skills, and maybe move a bit if necessary.
I make the following recommendations based on how I achieved my degree after being in a situation such as the one described.
;)
Select an accredited university. Do NOT get a degree by mail. You will get called on it by any reputable employer.
Find a university that will provide "work experience" credits. I went through Wayland University (based in Texas). They allowed up to 20 some credits based on real-world work experience. This eliminates the need for some boring electives.
Select a BS program that is quickest to achieve. I obtained a degree in Business Administration because I knew and could document my technical experience. With the Bus. Admin degree I would prove to employers I can also understand business and management allowing me to progress up the corporate ladder.
Next, CLEP or DANTES test out of every class you can. At around $50 a pop, they are worth taking even if you are unsure of passing. I took ACCOUNTING I class and CLEP'd out of ACCOUNTING II. I also CLEP'd numerous math, physics, and astronomy classes simply because I knew the material reasonably well. Depending on the university you select, you may only need around a 50% passing score on CLEP or DANTES tests to be given credit. Since they are multiple choice, your almost guaranteed 25% correct by guessing.
Once you have cleaned out all the elective classes through CLEPs and work experience, you need to focus on core classes. Universities require you to take a minimum number of required courses from them in order to obtain a degree, usually 11 classes or so. You will not be able to get around this. Select the classes you believe will be important to give you a good background in the degree field you've choosen. They will actually be beneficial to you in the long run.
Final thoughts. I completed my degree in just under 2 years by completly immersing myself into the program (while continuing to work full time and run my own ISP and security consulting business). I had ZERO social life for those 2 years but it was well worth the effort. As a side note, once you have the credits (through CLEP, DANTES, or actually taking classes) and complete you degree you always have the option to leverage those in a second degree at another university. Get the quickest degree (Business admin, forestry, or whatever) then go back later and take a few additional classes to get the CS if you desired.
Most important, although you might think a CS degree is critical, employers first look to see if you have ANY degree, which provides them documented evidence of ability to learn and desire to grow in knowledge. Get a degree!
Hope this helps.
I'd go ahead and get a four-year degree, preferably at an older school where there is some possibility that, in the process of acquiring a good general education, you may learn that publicly discussing your income (I'm being kind here -- the proper term would be "boasting") is in exceedingly poor taste.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
First, it should be of note where I am, how I got there, and why this may help others reading.
I am 19-years-old. My position, should you care, is Manager of Network Operations (CIO) for a 55-employee graphics/net concern in Kansas City.
I am a high-school drop-out, with no GED.
I make more then my mother, who has a BA, and has been working for 30+ years.
I regret every day that I never completed school. The reasons for my leaving are numerous, though focus mostly on boredom, and a rather intense hatred of teenage culture.
I left school with one-goal, to write comics.
I ended up working on computers.
For everyone listening, where I am now is not hard to get to in the computer industry. It's actually a straight-forward progression from one job to the next, moving quickly, and working like a japanese beaver to show your worth your wait.
I started at CompUSA, as the in-house Macintosh guy, when I had just turned 16, one month out of high-school. I actually planned on being a sales-clerk, but, when they found out I could fix Macs, they got wet, and gave me the job...
I low-balled my salary, meaning there was little risk for my employer, and worked there for three months.
I eventually came to meet a woman who as starting a consulting concern. She never asked my age, but offered me a job. They only learned I was 16 when I filled out the proper paper-work. They couldn't deny me the job at that point, as it would have been age-discrimiation.
For one-year, I worked 80+ hour weeks, learning everything I could by trailing my boss as he fixed things. I took no classes, but read patiently, and paid attention.
I was promoted to my current position 13 months after I started.
It's a terrible job.
I'm 19, with no education, which everyone knows, and thus, am often treated as such. Because I have no degree, I don't have a leg to stand on when in arguments. All I know is what I can guess would be true.
I can't tell you how many wasted hours I have spent fixing things that, were I to have a degree, I may never have broken. Borders is my drug of choice, as well as Fatbrain.com, and they eat up most of my salary. I have to spend as much time as possible reading what a CS major may have been given easily, and, because I have very-little frame of reference, lacking solid fundamentals, I often find myself relearning things again and again.
I want to return to school...badly. But, I'm in debt, after buying a good car, and getting some needed dental work done, and, leaving my job, or reducing my salary is not an option. Between a rock and a hard place, I'm stuck envious of the lazy life of college students, meanwhile, struggling to remain current so that a Devry kid doesn't steal my job.
Degrees aren't useful to employers in this industry. In every interview i have been in, the fact that I have no degree is never a concern. I have never been denied a position I applied for because of that, and most look favorably on my, self-motivation i guess you could call it.
But degrees can be useful to you. Having that stupid piece of paper gives you a grounded view of what you are doing, and confidence in your intelligence. You will doubt yourself less, and find more pathways open to you when you are doing whatever it is you love doing.
The foundation of CS should not be taken lightly, or shrugged off.
It's time to go job-hunting again, so I guess we'll see if this is all true in this economy...
I keep seeing things like this, over and over.
Guess what, folks: the school does *not* turn a profit on each student. There are few, if *any* schools in which tuition actually covers the costs. The subsidy you receive tends to vary from small but noticable (private schools with small endowments), to almost all (many state schools).
There are cases where schools are not up to the enrollment for which they are desigened, and indeed need the revenue from the empty seats, but this is the exception, not the rule (but I did get a full law school scholarship out of this, as the school needed my test scores and near certain passage on the bar exam
Also, summer programs tend to be revenue positive--the buildings and maintenance are already paid for by the regular programs, and the faculty benefits are already paid. But guess what the extra revenue does . . .
hawk
that's not to say I never attended college. I went to 3 universities and in my final transfer, I found that some credits didn't xfer over for some reason and I was about 2 courses short of a dual math/comp-sci degree. I figured I'd go back at night to complete the degrees (I had a job offer and was excited to immediately start in industry).
of course I never went back at night and so technically, I have no degree at all. lots of college experience but no piece of paper, as it were.
still, my last college was a co-op school and so half the time I was out working; and the other half attending courses full-time. so when I finally left school, I had real work experience - which was the biggest boost - far more than attending this or that college.
that was all back in 1984. I've been working full-time in the computer industry (I'm a network management guy) and so far, not ONE company I've interviewed at has balked at my lack of 'a piece of paper'. I've never applied to govt kinds of companies (here in the silicon valley, there's little need to resort to such things [g]). but after having 15+ yrs in the industry, plus having started programming at 15yrs old (I'm 40 now) I never even get ASKED about my degree or schooling. I don't even list it on my resume anymore.
I laugh when people ask me if they should SPEND MORE MONEY by getting a masters or doctorate. I say hell no!, why SPEND money when you can MAKE it directly at a job? even if its entry-level, you have to start somewhere.
there are plenty of non-degreed people out there doing very well indeed. and when asked 'who would you hire if you were starting a fresh new company', I'd almost always pick a self-starting self-taught person over some college-boy egghead anyday. especially if they are interested enough in computers to actually run a small network at home.
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Although I agree with you completely, just check around among all your associates with the humanities/liberal arts degress, and find out just how much science/math/engineering they have taken. What gets me with the current state of the academic world is that it's unconscionable to allow a scientist or engineer to graduate without an appropriate number of humanities courses to "balance" his or her education, but it's perfectly OK to let a humanities major graduate with essentially no math or science or engineering courses whatever. In fact, they're lucky if they have taken a high-school-level algebra or "pre" calculus course for the entire math requirement and/or an astronomy-for-poets course as their science requirement. These same people then complain that their degrees have not prepared them for life in the technology-heavy modern business world. It's a joke.
Guns don't kill people -- people kill people.
But the guns seem to help a bit. (apologies to Eddie Izzard)
wise the following: "The only reason most large companies require a degree, and don't just interview you for what you know and your experience, is because most of those people have degrees. If they had to suffer through 4-6 years of college, and the time and monetary commitment involved in doing that, you damn well are going to suffer just like they did. It's called 'revenge on the rest of humanity'." I've found most companies that required a degree to get anywhere (as opposed to basing everything on experience" are companies I don't want to work for anyway.
>I've been programming since I was 12 (I'm
>currently 24) and have read hundreds of CS
>books. I think that I can easily complete a CS
>degree in 1 year.
"I've been using microwave ovens since I was 12 and have read hundreds of books on using microwave ovens. I think I can easily complete a degree in high-energy physics in one year."
Okay, thats pushing the analogy a little far, but you get the point. Programming is a trade skill, period. Computer science is NOT about programming. I'm sorry I'm reacting so violently to this, but you've hit a *very* sore spot for me.
I do computer science for a living and I am a mathematician by trade and training. Yes, I can program and enjoy doing so, but this is not what makes me a "Computer Scientist". I also enjoy tinkering with old sports cars and have a decent grasp of mechanics. I certainly don't consider myself a qualified automotive engineer though.
You claim to have read "hundreds of CS" books; but have you really? Is there a chance they were programming and technology books? If you want a taste of what real "computer science" looks like, I happily recommend reading the following:
- Computational Complexity by Papidimitriou
- Automata Theory and Languages by Hopcroft and Ullman
- Compilers... I can't remember the whole name but its got a big picture of a dragon on the front. If you ask anyone in the business about 'the dragon book' they'll know what you mean... by Aho, Sethi and Ullman (I think).
- The Russell and Norvig AI book
- Any book on lambda-calculus and recursive function theory (I can't think of a good introductory-level text at the moment). Even better if it introduces semantics too.
Those will give you a feel for some of the areas that are considered "Computer Science". The ability to program will get you through first year; after that, its more about math and.. gasp... thinking, than it is about whipping up code.
Again, sorry for the rant, but I think Edsgar Dykstra (a famous Computer Scientist) summed it up best when he said:
"Computer Science is as much about computers as Astronomy is about telescopes".
Truer words were never spoken.
Mostly because in the 3 years I'd been there they had yet to teach me anything I hadn't already taught myself in high school.
either you went to the worlds crappiest college, or you where taking the easiest course possible AND went to the best damn high school in the world.
Advanced college math, by the Jr. year, is WELL beyond anyhtin in highschool. Not to mention the arts, advanced english, physics, chemistry.
I do not believe there where NO courses at your college that you didn't allready master.
Your statement is the same cop-out high school drop-outs use.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Thanks for jumping to conclusions, and helping to re-inforce negative stereotypes.
Note that I'm *not* an Anonymous Coward, so feel free to reply to that. I'm willing to put my name behind my views. Glad to see that you're able to keep thinking independantly yourself. Way to keep an open mind.
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Segmentation Fault ( core dumped )
My personal situation is much akin to that of the individual who submitted this question to Slashdot. I am 24 yrs old with 10+ yrs. of overall experience with computers (6+ yrs. in a professional environment...) and am currently employed by a well-known, Fortune 500 company. And, I have accomplished all of this (including a very generous salary) without the assistance of a college degree of any sort...
:)
I am currently in the highly enviable position of working for a corporation that not only encourages it employees to seek further higher education, but actually empowers them to do so with 100% reimbursement of all tuition/books/fees associated with attending university - please don't hate me because I'm fortunate...
So to address the question at hand, I will simply explain my strategy for attaining my desired degrees. As many have posted prior to me (and as should be common sense...), there are **NO** degrees that are both accredited and quick - all worthwhile degrees require at least a moderate level of commitment. That said, my personal plan is to leverage the limited number of college credits that I amassed while working for the I/T department of U of D Mercy (classes were free...) to provide me with eligibility for an accelerated Bachelors program for Business Administration - this is an 18-month program and is offered at MANY business oriented universities.
So why would a computer geek need/want a Bachelor's in Business Administration??? There are actually three reasons why this was appropriate in my situation - (1) it is the most logical if you are looking for promotion to management, (2) it is the easiest, quickest bachelor's degree available, and (3) It is a fully accredited degree that can be used as a stepping stone for further post-graduate education.
It is actually this final point that makes this plan so applicable, beneficial, and practical. Once you have completed your bachelor's degree in business, you can continue on to get a Master's Degree (in roughly another 12 - 18 months if you work hard...) in a more computer/technical related area. This could be anything from E-Business to a program targeted for future CIO's.
If you are anything like me, you have no desire to sit through tedious technical classes that strive to teach you old ideas and yesterday's technology. I read books and attend conferences to maintain my up-to-date standing in the world of technology. The benefit that I can derive from attending university is that of management and people skills that most computer geeks inherently lack. As proof of concept, I have actually been premature promoted to an interim management position only weeks after divulging my educational intensions to my superiors and taking the first preliminary steps...
Best of luck to you in whatever you path you choose - ultimately, any education or form of learning will prove to be beneficial for you mind and soul!!!
- n2q
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -- Benjamin Franklin
And you don't need to cut your career short to go back to school since those are evening classes. If you are diligent enough, you can complete the program in a year and a half.
I have a degree from MIT, your offer. Anytime, anywhere.
How do you want to do it? See who can write a compiler in 6 days? how anbout write a functional OS in 30 days?
How about write a program to completely operate an advanced satalite under 640K?
Want to write a SCSI driver in assembly?
Lets ee if my amazing kreskin powers are working:
You program in VB....and know enough PERL to open a database.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Don't plan on completing a CS degree in a year. Can't be done. As many others have pointed out, most universities will require the broad educational background. I know. I went back to school to get that BS in CS degree... and I already had a BS in engineering (Civil). So I already had many of the background courses. I took maybe a total of 5 PROGRAMMING courses during my 2 1/2 year tenture at school. The rest were Computer SCIENCE (about 40%), and non computer (50%) courses.
The advantages I had over someone earning a degree for the first time was that I could fill in a lot of my non-cs courses from interesting things that I wanted to take, rather than bone-head english, history, bio/phys/chem, etc. My choice, so I can't complain.
Earlier in this thread, someone was talking about how much getting a degree helps a person improve their social skills. Thank you for demonstrating the actual extent to which that is true. I hope it will be a valuable lesson for all concerned.
I have a problem with the presumption that someone who has acheived the CS skills required to compete successfully in the market has not or cannot have also educated themselves in math, business, the arts , other sciences etc...
Anyone who has educated themselves in these areas has far more focus, persistence, passion and discipline than most who do so with the aid of an educational institution. While tremendous resources are available at these facilities, anyone with the personal quialities to go it alone will continue educating themseleves at a much higher rate then most for whom education was something that you got in school.
Education is not something that other people do to you.
Calculus, chemistry, music....all can be learned to any degree on your own. I, and many others, are examples of those who do so out of pure curiosity about the world in which we live and passion for things that we love. I don't have a degree, never went to college, and have never been asked if I did. I, and many others, am a successful SW Engineering consultatnt who has been judged on my track record and ability to perform. To move into management...no problem. The MBA curriculum is available in books and is easy to master.....for the self educating individual.
"everyone's different....I am the same"
>engineers/scientists as you are trained to think methodically/logically/rationaly. They like to
> sway your emotions despite the fact that FACTS are supposed to rule a case. Thats not
>to say you will not get called up for jury duty just that when you are,
>you are more likely to be dismissed(based on my own personal experience).
It's not your education or training. With a statement like that, a lawyer doesn't need to spend a peremptory challenge, as you'll be dismissed for cause for your bias . . .
hawk, esq.
If I remember correctly from a usenix/sage report last year, you do not need a CS degree.
If getting into more management positions and such is what you are after, your degree does not have to be in CS. It can be in, well, almost anything that's reasonably respectable.
Sage found that sysadmins with degrees make more money than those without, but that those degrees were not necessarily in CS.
IF you are doing this for your career, do a 2 year business degree or something...
I went to work at 24 without finishing my IT degree. When I was 26 I was a lead developer with a lot of responsibility and one day my boss was rambling about the state of the industry and said, "...for example, if you had a degree, I'd have to pay you twice what you're making now." I resigned within the week and enrolled that semester. I graduated at 27 and have not looked back since. Now at 34 my degree is hardly an issue, but it's there. If it weren't opportunities I've had may not have been available. Whatever...
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Companies will not generally promote you to management positions, (ie: CIO, Director of IT, etc) if you don't have a degree in *something*.
It's not at all about what you learned in the degree; it's the perception by the rest of the world.
CCIE is great, it will get you fantastic work, but it won't get you respect from venture capitalists and a board of directors who want to put someone in charge, unfortunately.
anyway, FWIW, Math and/or physics are much better preparation for graduate work in economics, as well. Also, the people who do best in law school are not the english majors (who are convinced that their writing skills [which all too frequently aren't up to standard, anyway] will carry the day), but the folks with engineering, math, and hard science degrees.
hawk, with degrees in subjects all over the place.
A company wants you to have a degree for a number of reasons:
1. It guarantees that you have had the breadth of exposure to your field that they think you need. You may say you are well rounded in your field, but are you? Degrees also require you to be proficient in other fields as well.
2. It shows that you can be given a hard task and complete it.
3. It provides a way to keep score. If you are doing good in school in relation to others in your field than you are good at what you do. If you do badly in relation to others, you are bad at what you do.
4. It decreases the company's risk that the person is an idiot.
5. People with degrees get more respect.
In response to good programmers who don't have degrees working with idiots with degrees, this exists, but you'll find it much more common that those with degrees are smarter (and more motivated) than those without. That's my experience.
Being a well rounded person will make you a better developer. You can't just know technology, but also you need the gain understanding how technology fits into the bigger picture.
Learn stuff that will not be obsolete in three years. This takes time. Enjoy the journey.
...richie - It is a good day to code.
All you need to do is get a hotmail account- I get offers for a free college degree several times a day.
There is no greater tragedy in life than getting a degree in a field you don't like and then doing that job for the next twenty years.
You may be flipping burgers with a degree in linguistics or philosophy, but you'll probably be a lot happier than you would as a programmer.
Do what you are good at...
Beware the wood elf!!!
Most major Universities have ways for you to test out of classes. And even for the classes you can't officially test out of, there are friendly professors (especially at smaller universities) that will let you unofficially test out.
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
Some of the courses that you'll take when you go back to school won't be directly relevant to programming, or even CS. You might learn enough English, though, that you won't write it's been 5 years since I've been working in the tech industry when you mean I've been working in the tech industry for 5 years.
Econ 200 versus CIS 200.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Excelsior 'www.excelsior.edu' may have what you need. I got me degree, non-computer related, through them. No classroom time, just challenged courses. Before I'm flamed on this, it is a legitimate college under the State of NY and is an accredited college. It is not a diploma mill. Their degrees can be used for entrance into a masters program. Good luck!
>busywork, you haven't worked on interesting
>enough real-world ones.
What nonsense. It means you were given inadequate school projects.
hawk, who declines assigning projects if they're just busywork.
You say 'the old myth is not true'.
Last year's usenix survey shows it to be VERY true.
Companies will not put you into upper management positions if you do not have a degree. period.
Yup, you're a mathematician alright! :) I see nothing wrong with your idea, but it amuses me that you didn't also recommend literature, anthropology, interpersonal relations, public speaking, etc.
I've met and know a lot of great programmers. The ones who are still employed right now are the one who have paid attention to their soft skills.
So, there's this idea of "correct background/complete knowledge" and there's this idea of "valuable to businesses". They do play off each other, but they aren't the same and you have to decide which one is more valuable to you.
ARR0, I am curious though. Having the background in mathematics that you have, you've inevitably suffered through the best and worst ways to learn math. If you could do it over again and had the opportunity to select the fashion in which you would be educated mathematically, what would you select? I'm only curious because I'm someone who likes the ideas of math and the ways in which it contributes to analytic thought, but I've always been put off by a variety of factors. TIA!
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
>writing on them" that are in my wallet too.
Mine too, but not as much as those pieces of plastic in my wallet . . .
>Especially in large organisations, it pays to have a few extra letters after your name.
yep.
hawk, j.d., ph.d., esq.
Ok, here's some of the experience I've had, and the conclusions I've drawn from them:
./'ers are not taking into account that you don't just need a degree to move into management. You might also need it for the leg up on your competition. Take this economic heap of steaming s___ that we're in. If you're laid off, then you are most likely competing with several other people who have the same qualifications and who were also laid off. Given the pick, who would most managers choose? You got it, the guy with the degree. Why? Chances are, he'll catch less hell from his management.
The degree isn't always required to get a good job. And you can live a good life without ever getting one. However, for good and bad, there are people who are unwilling/unable to hire non-degreed people. It's just a fact. Most
I personally have fought this battle my entire career. I've spent time on the degree on the side because I will eventually need it some day. For all of you out there who are still having a problem with the idea of getting a degree just to satisfy some suits, look at it using this analogy: neighborhood hockey. Lemme explain:
You might just be the best damn player in the neighborhood. All the other kids know it, and you're THE first to be picked. The only problem is, on Saturday, you can't play with them because you didn't pay the municipal fee to play in a city league. Therefore, when you go to the rink, the Ref is going to have to keep you from playing. Does it mean you are any less qualified? Absolutly not. It just means to some suits in your city government, you haven't paid the fee, and can't play in the official league for whatever reason they've come up with. Possibly an issue of liability for the city, or maybe something else unseen to you. It doesn't matter what reason they use though. You still can't play, because they say so.
You see, you will always be able to get a job without the degree, but it's going to be harder. You will end up fighting more for those positions.The degree is a key to open several doors that you can't open on merit alone.
Now, in respect to the experience you get with a degree, here are a few comments:
a degree does not an engineer make.
experience does not an engineer make.
It's the combo of the degree (theory) with the experience (practical knowledge) that makes the best engineers. The theory tells us how something
is supposed to work, and the practice tells us where the theory is wrong so that the theory can be refined. You can operate exclusively in either domain, but you will get the best results in the area where they overlap.
As for the BullS*** arts classes that they make you take? Well, believe it or not, they're very useful too. History enables you to see patterns
of behavior in human culture. So does poly-sci and psycology. English ensures that you will be able to communicate your ideas clearer. Foriegn language expands your view of "those" other people in other areas of the world, as well as helps you communicate with them in an ever increasingly global market. Business and economics gives you the ability to identify trends your future employers will be following, and will give you a set of tools to judge how well they are doing in whatever market they're in.
Besides, let's remember who our customer's are: the non-techies. Yep, you'll be dealing with them some day. And you'll do much better if you have a way to talk with them. That's where the Liberal Arts classes come in.
Just some thoughts and conclusions.
PacketKing
Ignorance is lacking knowledge, stupidity is a choice of ignoring knowledge.
The Natural Science requirement says they have to take two courses in the same discipline. I advise people to do Physics because the department has great teachers and because it can give one a new way of thinking about the world, but a lot of them end up in Geology - "Rocks for Jocks." Nonetheless, when you are doing two courses in the discipline, you're bound to end up with something of a grasp on its concepts, and hopefully it'll make you a slightly more scientific thinker when you graduate.
grep -ri 'should work'
Before the 20th response "correcting" this: I meant median, not average. Indeed I stated median, and further clarified it by saying that 1/2 of the students fell below 112 (thereby clarifying my statement that it's the median), but I inadvertently left a prior reference to "average". I shall pray to the gods to forgive me. Dear Taco please forgive me!
Secondly, I am NOT saying that a degree has no value, but the purpose of the degree is to give you the knowledge, and it's the _knowledge_ and _skills_ that should stand on their on, not the pursuit of it (i.e. most CS grads who went into it because they love the field will likely be very knowledgeable). Imagine, if you will, going to the race track, but rather than actually racing the cars (getting quantitative metrics of their relative value), they instead talk about the number of hours they put into designing them, with each of them pulling out sheets showing the pedigree of the iron and the gamma-quotient of the paint job. The `noble pursuit' justification for a degree is of dubious value as well given that many students use university as a way to put off the "real world", rather than as a great laborious pursuit.
I don't see "accreditation" listed as one of Kensington's plusses. :/ In fact, a google search brings up the following:
+ un iversity%22&hl=en&scoring=d&rnum=1&selm=wQQw7.4949 5%24kf1.16425083%40news1.rdc1.ne.home.com
0 ,4 028,1191514^6203,00.html
"In Bear's Guide to Earning Degrees Nontraditionally, it notes of Kensington International University -
Kensington University had been a California-approved school, but their reapproval was denied in 1995, leading to the establishment of this institution (i.e., Kensignton International University), using a business service address in Hawaii; the school is still run from southern California, offering degrees at all levels by independent study.
Note that if you are concerned about regional accreditation, this institution is not regionally accredited."
As well as...
"Neither Kensington or Newport University are listed in the International Handbook of Universities.
This usually suggests that they are not accredited by any of the 6 regional agencies of the US. Or, if these institutions are outside the US, this means they are not recognised institutions."
It's also listed in the diploma mill section of the alt.education.distance FAQ.
It's illegal to use a diploma from Kensington in Oregon: http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html
More:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22kensington
http://highered.theoz.com.au/common/story_page/
This sig is xenon coated, and will glow red when in the presence of aliens
Most universities are turning out people who are barely literate in any of the stable, long-term, popular technologies.
You assert that these technologies are only useful in expressing some higher form of cs theory, but the most profound cs theories are already embodied in these very technologies which you disregard as inconsequential.
Think about it this way - would you want a medical doctor to practice medicine the way you believe computer science should be learned and practiced? I think not.
I've been in the IT industry for 16 years now, the last 6 in management. I almost finished a degree in 1985, but the fact is I do not have one. My story is similar to yours -- get started, work your way up, do not accept unnecessary limitations. It's always encouraging to see that others occasionally follow this path.
I have hired people ranging from non-degree up to MSCS. Looking at the performance of the entire group, the degree people fit the "normal curve". Some good, some bad, most were at least adequate. The non-degree people were hired only when they could demonstrate superior skills. As it happens, those skills made them top performers when it was time to actually do the job. Of all the non-degree people I have hired, I have yet to be disappointed.
In my opinion, the degree is part of the selection criteria ONLY when ALL of the applicants are light on experience.
Some of the other posts are correct in that certain industries are militant about the degree requirement. Around here the common examples are government, insurance, defense, banking, and pharmaceuticals.
Case study #1: I once hired a guy whose only work experience was as a VCR repair technician. He was an engineering/computer hobbyist, whom I had known for years. He was an incredibly sharp guy, just a little unfocused. He was part of my staff for a few years, and then left to become a system manager for one of the largest banks in New England.
Case study #2: Same story, except this guy was an electrician who was doing mostly Cat.5 network wiring. He was on my staff for a few years, and is now the network manager for an state government agency with a very sophisticated WAN and LAN environment that includes numerous remote sites and thousands of PCs.
Case study #3: I knew another guy who earned an ASEE. He looked for a job and found nothing. He goes back for an AS in Data Processing. New job search, same result. He goes to another college and earns a BSCS. Still no job. Finally, he goes to college #3 and gets an MSCS, and EVENTUALLY, a job installing PCs and LANs in Georgia. We would still be driving a van full of PCs from Georgia to Alabama if I didn't hire him. Since then, he worked his way up through operations and became an Oracle DBA. He now works for a major pharmaceutical company, so things worked well for him too. Then again, if he never graduated from anywhere, I don't see how his life would be any different today, aside from possibly earning an additional 6 years of salary.
Let's face it, when the IT job market is cold, MOST applicants are going to get excuses instead of job offers. In such a tough market, you have to outwit, outplay, and outlast your competition, degree or not. In a hot IT market, the offers are out there, and exceptions are being made by employers, beyond what most people can possibly imagine.
Does the lack of a degree reduce my theoretical number of potential employers? YES, it does. However, I don't expect to get an offer from every interview. No one ever does. In my career, I have interviewed about 12 times and received 5 offers, for a hit rate of about 42%. Did I get "screened out" of several opportunities? Sure, but who cares? I only accepted 2 of the 5 offers, and I've been promoted 6 times by two employers during 16 years of uninterrupted employement. I don't let the degree become an obstacle, and every so often I find employers who agree with me. After all, I can only DO one job at a time, right? If I apply for ten jobs and I'm ranked #1 once and dead last for the other nine, that's a hell of a lot better than being ranked #2 all ten times, as described in case study #3 above.
In my opinion, things that don't make you a #1 choice are not all that useful. To me, the degree is what helps you reduce the number of reasons why an employer might NOT hire you, but it's not as valuble as adding a reason why they WOULD hire you. Think of yourself as a hiring manager. Can you imagine telling your boss something like "I hired Joe Smith because he has a degree." On the other hand, would you rather say "I hired Joe Smith because he has great experience." To me, one of those statements sounds much better than the other.
I graduated from the University of Utah with two humanities degrees. As a part of my coursework, I also took three semesters of calculus, three semesters of physics, two semesters of computer science and a semester of human evolutionary history -- all of these are serious science classes, as far as I'm concerned.
I think a lot depends on the quality of the institution one attends and the degree to which the institution itself has "joined the modern world" so to speak. For example, my university was wireless-ready across the entire campus, and things like registration, tuition payments, grades, assignments, etc. were all handled primarily online. I have friends who have graduated from schools that are still basically paper-based and who often don't require much in the way of math, science, or computing skills.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
The University of Chicago has a year long master's program aimed at individuals who do not have a bachelors in CS. A few of my friends went through it after their BA's and had a positive experience.
-Bill
U of C '97
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
Why not take a course at the Open University (www.open.ac.uk)? It's as real as any other university, and you work in your own time from home (so I guess you *could* do it in a year, but I wouldn't recommend it). I'm not sure you'd be able to do it from the US, but it's worth looking at, especially as it has the additional benefits of a British degree (more detail, cheaper, etc).
because it was the time of year when my class was graduating and I felt I should have left college as well. being 2 courses short didn't bother me all that much; and more importantly, I had a JOB OFFER which I didn't want to turn down.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
The problem with this is that exams don't test what you know; exams test what your Professor has told you. And THAT is why you need the classes. Case in point. I took a C course, where the prof said 'you don't need to be here if you don't want; the only marks are from the assignments and the exam, and here's all the assignments.' Well, I believed her. And because I wound up doing my assignments using techniques she didn't teach in class, I got poor marks. I've never been a good academic learner; I think there's too much bullshit. "Given these two equasions, solve for X." "X is 12." "Show your work." "What work? Look at the question. It's 12." "Very well; 2 marks out of 10." And yet the person who goes through the steps, fucks up, and gets X equals 7, gets, say, 5 out of 10 marks. Now, yes, that's a good requirement when you're trying to learn the material. But once you've learned it, leave it be.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Has anyone skipped a BS degree and gone directly into a MS program? A MS program tends to be faster and deeper than a BS, skipping non-major courses. Perhaps if one gets a high score on the grad school tests (GRE). However, GREs tend to test broad knowledge you dont encounter in a work environment.
Surely the point of a good CS background -- be it from a formal education or personal experience -- is that you've learned to think about things at the right level of generality to be useful?
A good computer scientist thinks about algorithms in somewhat abstract terms -- in pseudocode, if you like -- as opposed to thinking of them as a particular function in their favourite programming language. On the other hand, that same computer scientist would know how to implement that algorithm in a variety of programming styles, and those in turn on a variety of languages, e.g., implementing quicksort in C++ or in ML, and understanding the differences and similarities between these cases. There are obviously many similar stories throughout CS; the difference between structured, procedural programming, OO systems and a functional approach vs. the difference between C, Eiffel and Scheme, for instance.
The key thing is that each of these levels is important. People without a good CS background often overlook the more general considerations in algorithm selection, for example, and often write poorly designed code as a result. On the other hand, those too heavily into "formal CS" forget that the theory is worthless without an application. They're so busy tweaking the algorithm that they forget Knuth's rule about optimisation, and don't have time to write the 50% of their program that's UI.
Incidentally, I've noticed that with time and experience, people tend toward the same conclusions, whether they start from a formal training or "hacking" background. Things like learning your second major programming language are major milestones on the road.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Interesting comment.
After completing my first degree in maths at [a top UK university], I took a one-year post-grad diploma in CS. Everyone there had already completed an undergrad degree in something, typically in a science or "business" area, but no-one had a prior degree in CS.
The diploma basically covered most of the "fundamental" courses from the first two years of the undergrad CS degree, often in the same lectures, but with less time in the labs playing with hardware. It included several key courses from the third year as well, though probably only half of the total (which was a shame; I'd have enjoyed some of the ones they missed). Finally, there was a very significant project involved throughout the year, basically a formal development of a piece of software as would be done by a real company, just scaled down. That made up something like 1/3 of the overall credit.
Now, the result -- a postgrad diploma in CS -- doesn't have the same status as a full undergrad degree in CS. However, I'd put the people in that room up against anyone who'd just completed the undergrad course. The CS grads would have had the edge in factual knowledge, but the "diplomees" could easily have picked up the notes for a missing course and read up on it. OTOH, their general skills -- self-sufficient learning, communications, organisation, and such -- were in a different league, having studied two formal subjects effectively at degree level, taken part in the large-scale project, and generally had that much more experience.
Anyway, I'm rambling, but my point was that getting the factual knowledge required for a good CS background can easily be done in a year with a bit of hardwark and good support. It's the general life skills that take the time, and those aren't CS-specific.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
One of the most talented hardware designers I ever met was a USAF vet, who'd been to pretty much every electronics course they offered.
;-)
He mustered out as a Sergeant, and didn't have any degrees, but I've never seen anyone else his age with such a comprehensive command of electronics from power supplies to antenna theory. Digital didn't really interest him though: he thought it was too easy
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
What are your goals? If this includes management, a 4-year degree is required
I beg to differ. I don't have any degrees, but that didn't prevent me from joining KPMG as the manager for Data Security in their Electronic Commerce Group a few years ago. KPMG is about as old-fashioned as a hierarchy gets, BTW.
Similarly, two of the jobs I tried out for at Apple before obtaining my current job there were management jobs, and nobody raised any issue w/r/t degrees.
Now, that being said, I would agree that degrees are often helpful, but not having a degree is only a barrier if you *believe* it's a barrier.
Once or twice, someone's looked at my resume and said "I don't see where you went to school on your resume", and I've just said that I didn't go to college. They move right along from there.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
As a technical person, you can hardly do anything to help yourself better than to get your degree. Unfortunately, I haven't found a quick path to get a degree as quickly as you would like, not even for any of the most technically gifted folks I've met. There are simply some fundamentally required courses that "round out" an education (i.e. math, literature, etc.) I recommend you ensure whatever school you choose, make sure it also has Masters and/or Doctorate level courses offered. This will save you an awful lot of grief later on after you pick up your BS degree. There have been many folks that continue school after their four year degree, only to find the next school will not "fully accept" the BS degree and they try to make you take additional courses. I recommend just biting the bullet, map out your degree and just resign yourself to start taking the necessary classes. You will quickly find the degrees will just "show up" on your wall. Time goes by very quickly. Best of luck!
I don't see why not, it had a reasonable amount of CPU power compared to the Xerox Star systems it was ripping off.
Perhaps, and more likely, the market couldn't handle the $10,000 per computer overhead?
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Companies will not put you into upper management positions if you do not have a degree. period.
Maybe companies wouldn't put you into and upper management position without a degree, but I've met enough CEO's and CTO's without degrees to know that your assertion is incorrect.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I'm trying to offer constructive criticism; please interpret the message in the spirit in which it is intended...
To me, it looks like half the problem might be associated with legacy technology. If I turn your message into an unofficial resume, it looks like most of what you work on is old stuff. Either this is part of the problem, or maybe the presentation needs to focus on what employers might really want. I have lots of experience working with DECnet, Adabas, VAX/VMS and SNA gateways, but I don't tell anyone, because nobody cares. I also have lots of experience working with TCP/IP, Cisco IOS, SQL, HTML, PHP, Oracle, MSSQL, Apache, Solaris, and Linux, and I proclaim it loudly. Could it be as simple as a battle of the buzzwords?
The other half of the problem is that the IT market is lousy right now, and you are competing with the low-cost labor, maybe even H1Bs. They all have degrees and they're cheap to hire. If you find yourself competing with recent grads or H1Bs, then you are losing based on cost, or the perceived salary requirements of a 44 year old vs. a 24 year old. A degree won't make you any younger or cheaper. I know of plenty of people with degrees who experience age discrimination, it still sucks no matter what.
As for having peers with less experience getting 20% higher salaries, that is quite possibly a function of when they were hired. During the upside of the IT job market, salaries for NEW employees escalate to keep pace with the market, but EXISTING employees are often taken for granted. Get hired in the wrong year, and you get screwed. I worked in state government, where everyone knew everyone else's salary. When mine was out of sync, I asked management to address the issue, offering to leave if they were unsuccessful. It worked (more than once), because the degree was never the real issue. Given the chance, the HR droids would have used the degree an excuse to do nothing, but the salary game is played by the removal of excuses, usually backed up by a willingness to pursue opportunities elsewhere. Those who are unwilling to quit are the ones whose salaries must be OK, according to HR. After all, whose responsiblity is it to read the salary surveys and find out if what you make is reasonable for what you do? With or without a degree, the only solution for an out-of-sync salary is a well-timed "fix it or else" attitude, with the appropriate, non-confrontational presentation.
At age 38, I've been lucky enough for long enough to the point where I think my career is on-track, despite my lack of a degree. What I fear most of all is getting locked into technology that goes out of style, leaving me behind as a techo-relic that nobody wants. A degree would not be all that helpful if I was perceived as an [expensive] COBOL/RPG/Y2K has-been.
I intend no criticism of your decision to pursue the degree -- it may actually work, especially if you can present it as a (real or perceived) modernization of your skills. I think the next step will be to find a way to avoid competing with the bottom of the food chain, because (A) you don't belong there, and (B) it sounds like you deserve a more senior position. I think if you were chasing the right posisions, you would not be encountering so many younger/cheaper people.
I jumped to numerous conclusions in the preparation of this message, and I apologize in advance for any that may be off-base, including but not limited to the distribution of unsolicited advice. Good luck.
"We're having serious problems with some of the junior coders writing programs that go into infinite loops and lock up our systems. I'd like you to write a program that will scan through a piece of code and determine whether or not that code ever goes in to an infinite loop".
Would you do it? If you have taken Theory of Computation you'd know that this is equivalent to the halting problem for Turing machines and thus is *impossible*.
Assuming, of course, that you're using a Turing-complete language. If you restrict yourself to a Turing-incomplete sublanguage -- which will nevertheless be sufficiently powerful for almost all purposes -- things become rather easier. As long as you maintain a strict separation between data and control (well, not quite strict: Conditional jumps are safe as long as the code paths recombine later), halting (and correctness) can be mechanically proved.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
It's a step backwards.
Instead, join a professional organisation. For example, The British Computer Society (http://www/bcs.org.uk/). There will be equivalent recognised engineering society in other countries.
Deleted
This thread seems to have an interesting trend. Ok so this guy says he has been working for a while without a degree and is now seeking one... Why does this seem to bother some of you in similar situations who DON'T want a degree???
Somehow this took a turn towards a flood of people saying "I don't have a degree", "You don't need a degree". What the hell is this. I DO honestly think that skills are the most important thing. Thats an obvious thing. But there is no way any of you can logically say that earning a college education is NOT beneficial.
You can tell your story over and over about how you've worked for ten years and don't have a degree. blah blah blah. I don't care if you make three times my salary. Your story does not negate the millions of people who graduate from college every year.
I don't doubt that you can still have a wonderful career in the tech world without earning a degree. I'd bet plenty of money on the fact however that for EVERY ONE of you guys with a story of how you've been a manager WITHOUT a degree for 'X' amount of years, there are a thousand doing the same WITH one.
I honestly think its great that many of you made it without having a degree. I love my job and I got here because of good skills and a college degree, but I don't think I am better than you because of it. In turn, you're not better becuase of the tract you took.
I've only seen one person in this thread who didn't graduate from college come close to remotely admitting that a degree does mean something. Many of you seem so defensive about not getting your degree. Hey it worked for you and thats great but your experience alone can't discount the facts for others.
One day when you all have kids, I hope someone shows them all your comments about how "USELESS" getting a degree is.
I usually never respond to spam, but this was an offer I couldn't refuse. I am now accredited (through a major Somalia university) as "Grand Wizard of Windows XP Activation". My family was so happy that I finally quit that gas station.
Algoma University College in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada. It's got what's called "Accelerated Second Degree Programs in Computer Science and Information Technology." It is 12 months long, from April 30 to April 30 the following year. You can find the program's website here. ;)
;) Sault Ste. Marie is also a border town, with a twin city located 5 minutes away in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan.
Basically, the program requires that you have a 3 or 4 year degree in anything BUT Comp. Sci. or I.T.
Apparently this program is pretty popular and really good. I don't know much about it, however. I never attented AUC, it's just in my home town. If you ever decide to attend the program, look me up
BTW, I'm assuming you're in the US, and with the value of your dollar, it's like 50% off every day in Canada
-kidlinux.
The argument that a degree is a better assurance of qualifications for a company
is flawed on two fronts.
1. if the person interviewing you can't tell your skills without a degree, they
probably don't understand the technical problems in the first place. Do you want
to work for/with people who don't know?
Oh really? Just how does an interview determine someone's coding (or other) skills?
It doesn't. That's what degrees are for, to show that someone has the ability
to apply effort over time. No interview can do that. (My field is far simpler
than CS, there is no formal degree program, and I guarantee that no interview
will tell me if the person can succeed here.)
2. As others have mentioned, people with advanced degrees trained in research
have a different mind set than a programmer. Individuals great at both research
and application development are rare. Each job requires a different way of thinking
and working. You may want a researchers opinion about the architecture, but at
the low levels an experienced programmer is what you need.
Given that the individual stated that he was a consultant, I'd wager that a higher
level view is exactly what he needs. Even so, a low level programmer still needs
some knowledge of architecture to ensure that his code fits into the larger structure.
History shows that trained minds succeed, and college is generally where that
training takes place. Don't let the exceptions fool you about the existence of
an underlying rule.
You know, 'show your work;' show all the steps you'd go through, in this case, to take two separate equasions and turn them into a solution.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
This idea comes up on almost every Slashdot education-related story, mostly after I bring the idea up.
College teaches you how to do research, how to read a journal article, how to develop ideas from that research, how to write it down, how to credit people, and how to solve advanced problems.
It is not so much "how to learn" as it is "how to develop and use advanced (college-level) thought processes."
You can easily argue that people learn how to write papers and how to solve advanced problems in high school. Anyone who has been through both high school and then graduated from college can tell you that there is no comparison. People continue to develop intellectually through college. College helps you develop that increased ability.
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
You say that you're salary was increasing by 50% a year since you started (?!)
... lemmee see ... (1+ 0.50) ^ 5 =~ 7.5 times your starting salary, which was either really low or you're making a boatload now.
That would give you
If you started at 14k you are now making 100k. Why bother with a degree?
Anyway, good luck to you man, and don't procrastinate. Start working to a degree now, finding time only gets harder. I'd look to a community college for an associates degree first work on it part time. From there maybe transfer somewhere and then stop working, and finish off the hard stuff in a year or 18 months.
www.avacal.com -- the home page of pete shaw
You mention you want to go to grad school after you finish your undergrad degree. Chances are you will have to write the GRE CS subject test for your grad school application. Why not write it now, and see how you do? It might give you an approximate idea of how much computer science (as opposed to just programming) you have managed to pick up over the years.
Mills College has an intense computer science certificate program for people who already have a bachelor's degree in another field. See http://www.mills.edu/PUBS/CAT_GR/nhc.gr.html and http://ics.mills.edu. Students from the program have been admitted to computer science PhD programs at MIT, Univ. of Washington, Univ. of Virginia, etc.
I am currently the director of the program and would be happy to answer any questions.
If you are truely good at both the technological and people factors, then why do you want to get a degree? Perhaps the company you are currently working for has an ancient policy requiring degrees for certain positions, but you KNOW there's a way around that.
If not, go to another company, or start your own.
Starting your own is the best bet in the long run, and you know it - that way you don't sit there whining about being stuck at the bottom while that CEO-guy rakes in the bucks. In the case of running a company, YOU will be that CEO-guy.
So don't bullshit yourself, and don't feed the status quo mentality. Push yourself, not the piece of paper.
anymore than Bush's views on stem-cell research and abortion are representative of all Americans.
You say that like people who share his views should be second class citizens or something. Isn't there any room for disagreement on these somewhat ambiguous issues? Or should everyone who cringes at the thought of killing an unborn child be thrown out of the country?
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
no thats where its from. metallica's my fav band of all time and that song is a particular favorite.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
The "leaders" unfortunately are not elected or able to be chosen by those for whom the program exists in the BSA. There is no way to "vote them out of office", as they are mainly self-appointed. I know a great number of scouts and scouters ( actually, all of those I know, in the Chicago area ) disagree with "National" and simply ignore them on this issue and others.
You are free to reply to this
Yup, that's the nature of a public forum. :)
I don't see how you are standing behind your views more than I do when you are not using your real name anyhow
Did my mother name me CoreDump? Nope, it's a pseudonym. But, my email address and website are listed there. Feel free to send me an email to talk about this further, if you are not comfortable doing so in a public forum. Is 'CmdrTaco' not standing behind his posts, because he doesn't use 'Rob Malda'? Everytime I post, it'll be from CoreDump. You can see my posting history, go to my personal website, or contact me outside of this forum, so yes, I *am* putting my name behind my posts.
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Segmentation Fault ( core dumped )
It's been said in bits and pieces, but to sum up and state my full opinion:
::Colz Grigor
Take the time to go back to school. If you've been making an average salary increase of 50% each year, you should have had the sense to save a good portion of it. Use that savings to go back and get a degree.
The degree is for two things. First and foremost, it's for rounding. You know CS, but can you write a decent memo? Maybe a few lit classes will help there. And what about product life cycles? Some marketing classes will help. Consulting with a multinational firm, you'll make better decisions with forex knowledge and maybe picking up a second language (non CS) will help, too.
Second, part of university for me was learning to deal with bureaucrats in the most expeditious way. You could probably get that by long-term consulting for a development contractor, though.
You may never be a better programmer, but you're not saying you want to. People who want to program all their lives do not need to go to university. You want to advance beyond programming into management and decision-making. To do that best, you need the breadth that a real university will give you. And you can ace all the CS classes to boost your GPA, while you're at it.
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