Slashdot Mirror
Regarding the WWII Meeting of Bohr & Heisenberg
HarlanC writes: "The NY Times has an article (registration required) discussing the famous meeting between Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg in Copenhagen in 1941. The conclusion is that Heisenberg revealed to Bohr the existance of a Nazi atomic program in an attempt to obtain assistance from Bohr. The Times of London article is here (long registration process required)" The play "Copenhagen" was based on a fictionalization of this meeting, it was much better than "Proof", I assure you.
all your posts which come first are belong to us
Beatch!
"Alsos", by Samuel Goudsmit, (ISBN: 1563964155) describes the top-secret team that followed Allied forces into Europe to find out how close the Germans were to having nuclear weapons.
I strongly recommend the book Heisenberg's War by Thomas Powers. It provides a much deeper background into this meeting (and the entire German nuclear arms program) and is quite readable. Here's a bn.com link to the book if you want to avoid amazon.
After a war there will always be mistakes that happen or things that almost happened that could have changed events forever, but they didn't. It's interesting to note, but it's all history. Though an important part of history we all know what happened after WWII (Allied Powers Won).
Leave it at that.
Are you sure he was there? Did someone look inside the box?
Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
that's FIFTH POST, mother bitches!!!
Reading Slashdot for content is like picking peanuts out of shit.
Now, I've only read "Proof", never seen it produced, but...what was wrong with it?
Was it the math (I have a limited math background; just enough to get a CS degree)? Because otherwise I thought it was quite enjoyable...
Further (Fuhrer?) proof that Slashdot is run by Nazis.
"Why did they cancel my favorite Sci-Fi show? I downloaded ALL the episodes!"
Details of Nazis' A-Bomb Program Surface
By JAMES GLANZ
[T] he leader of the Nazi atomic bomb program, Werner Heisenberg, revealed its existence in September 1941 in a meeting in Copenhagen with a scientist who later became part of the Manhattan Project, the Allied effort to produce the bomb, according to secret documents cited in a London newspaper yesterday.
But contrary to several historical accounts of the meeting and major themes of an award-winning play, "Copenhagen," Heisenberg never expressed moral qualms about building a bomb for Hitler or hinted that he might be willing to sabotage the project, the documents reveal.
Some of the new information about the documents -- especially a letter that Niels Bohr, the scientist with whom Heisenberg met, wrote but never sent -- was reported yesterday by The Times of London, in an article citing Dr. Finn Aaserud, director of the Niels Bohr Archive in Copenhagen.
Dr. Aaserud is one of the few people outside the Bohr family who have seen the letter, which may be the only way to learn what happened at a meeting that is one of history's enduring mysteries. Bohr died in 1962, and Heisenberg died in 1976; both were Nobel laureates and considered among the greatest physicists.
"Essentially, the letter shows that he told Bohr that it was possible that the war would be won with atomic weapons, indicating that he was involved in such work," Dr. Aaserud said.
The only other living person outside the Bohr family known to have read the letter is Dr. Gerald Holton, an emeritus professor of physics and the history of science at Harvard. Dr. Holton declined yesterday to describe the letter fully, citing confidentiality agreements with the Bohr family. But he said that "Dr. Aaserud's report about some of its content is quite coherent with what we know" from other sources, including statements by one of Bohr's sons, the physicist Aage Bohr.
Dr. Holton said, "It is significant that Dr. Aaserud does not mention that any moral scruples or intention to sabotage the bomb project were reasons for Heisenberg's visit to Bohr."
Historians and scientists have argued for decades over why Heisenberg never succeeded in building an atomic bomb for Hitler. But the journalist Thomas Powers, author of the 1993 book "Heisenberg's War: The Secret History of the German Bomb," has argued that Heisenberg sabotaged the project.
In Mr. Powers's view, Heisenberg went to Copenhagen to make a deal with Bohr: The Germans would not develop the bomb if Allied scientists did not, either. The play "Copenhagen," by Michael Frayn, was inspired by Mr. Powers's book.
That view of Heisenberg has always generated skepticism among some historians. The new information is likely to solidify a less favorable view, that Heisenberg simply failed despite his best efforts, said David Rhodes, the author of a history of the Manhattan Project, "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" (1986).
"This letter confirms what I think was always pretty clear in the record, and that is that Heisenberg was not making some deal with Bohr," Mr. Rhodes said. "He was trying to find out what Bohr knew. He was trying to do a little espionage."
Dr. Jeremy Bernstein, a theoretical physicist and author of "Hitler's Uranium Club," a 2001 book on secret recordings of members of the German bomb program, said the letter appeared to support his own criticism of Heisenberg's motives.
"This is exactly what Aage Bohr has been saying all along," Dr. Bernstein said.
Mr. Powers did not respond to messages seeking comment left on his answering machine yesterday.
Dr. Holton also shed new light on why Bohr suddenly cut off the meeting and why it destroyed what had been Bohr's lifelong friendship with Heisenberg. Though some have attributed Bohr's reaction to anger, another explanation is more likely, Dr. Holton said.
"The first thing that would come to mind is not anger but deep fright," Dr. Holton said of Bohr's reaction to learning of a Nazi bomb program. "He understood what that would mean for civilization."
Many historians have praised the historical studies that Mr. Frayn undertook before writing the play. Still, in contrast to the complex Heisenberg of the play, the physicist in reality may have been easier to understand, Dr. Bernstein said.
Mr. Frayn "wants to see both sides of the story," Dr. Bernstein said, "and there's some stories where there's only one side. This may be one of them."
Bohr was a Nazi as much as Turing was a homosexual.
Just the facts, ma'am.
heh heh heh.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
Otherwise, the world would be facing a unified Europe, ruled by faceless bureaucrats headquartered in a continental European country, and America would be the only country that could go toe to toe with them.
It is always the same thing... each day we are being more and more controlled. I would like
to read the article, but unfortunately I can't - registration required, you know...
Now I am in doubt. What is the difference if my
name appears in another big corporate database,
anyway? The government, that is the one thing I don't trust have all this information...
Dawn...
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- Marco
Of course, once they figured out they were in Copenhagen, it was impossible to determine what went on. Doesn't make for a very thrilling movie, either.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
I'm quite glad I got the opportunity to see Copenhagen recently at the Wilshire theater in LA, the play kicked ass. At least I thought so. My wife was too busy being distracted by the druggie making weird gestures in the on-stage seating; plus she wasn't big on the whole science aspect and said "well couldn't they have just done that whole play in 5 minutes and be done with it?" Oh well. Definitely not for everyone, but almost definitely for the /. crowd! If you've got a chance to see it, it's cool.
How are they certain Heisenberg was in Copenhagen AND he was there in 1941 at the same time?
Both Proof and Copenhagen were disappointing. It seems the standards for "play of the year" (both won) aren't quite up to the "Long Day's Journey Into Night" days or even "Glengarry Glen Ross".
Copy and past is informative? You're kidding me... Damn, I should start karma whoring and copying and pasting every damn article... I'll be at 50 karma in no time.
- Marco
By the way, Slashwhore looks great on Windows XP.
|>1g $40u7z to da Myth r3\/\/!*!*
At the request of this AC
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- Marco
You need to post this as an AC That way, in order to block you out as foe, people will have to block out ALL Anonymous Cowards as well. Thus, further ruining the Slashdot reading experience.
"Adequacy.org: Where congenital stupidity is not an option, but a requirement."
It doesn't matter what happened and if someone decided to sabotage the bomb in German or not.
The Reich would not have been able to build an atomic bomb because they couldn't have set up the infrastructure without it being bombed to support the atomic bomb creation.
In Richard Rhodes' "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" he goes into alot of detail about how much industrial infrastructure was needed to make the Uranium and Plutonium for the 3 American atomic bombs.
And don't forget the amount of money and metals it took to make the equipment. The United States built 2 cities of 50,000 people each, one at Oak Ridge and the other at Hanford.
Germany didn't have the manpower, materials or bomb-proof infrastructure during the war to produce an atomic bomb.
Karma points aside, the moderation system is meant to give posts that are useful to others a higher rating. This has been a very imformative article to me as I can be bothered with the registration. Just because it's cut and past doesn't mean it's not of value. Can we forget about Karma for one minute and instead try and moderate posts based on how useful they are?
I managed to get a transcript of the letter from Bohr to Heisenberg, here it is:
Dear Werner,
Ever since your last visit, I haven't seen my cat, Fluffy. You haven't seen her, have you?
Sincerely,
Neils
I sure do appreciate the nice history lesson... yawn.
It's not like anybody's posting anything worth reading today... or are they? I posted an article earlier about psycho's trying to blow up nuclear facilities... but that's not newsworthy I guess.
~ now you know
Linux plain sucks. I tried it out not long ago and I thought I'd share it with you guys how bad it sucks. I am a long time user of Mac OS, so that proves I have an above average intelligence when it comes to PC's. First off many of you probably are not aware that Linux will not even install in Windows 98 SE. I'm not sure what version of Windows Linux runs in but there was no warning on the box about it being incompatible with Windows 98 SE (I actually think this may be a driver issue - for the not so technologically advanced crowd these are software DLL's that Microsoft makes from hardware spec sheets). I thought possibly it just didn't have autorun.exe on the Red Hat CD (the makers of Linux) so I looked all over the CD and didn't find any install.exe or setup.exe's. It looks like the QA department at Red Hat is well below the level of Microsoft's because Microsoft would never let a CD that is missing files get shipped out! I work on compilers for the Intel architecture all the time and I know how simple it is to make a InstallShield - if Linux isn't capable of getting a InstallShield programmed into a CD are you really going to risk of letting Linux damage your computer's hardware?! I even checked on the Debian and FreeBSD homewebpages for updates to the Linux CD, for those of you who don't know these are more "hacker" advanced user based Unix (they actually have a Unix kernel built into them and you have to configure it) and there was no update to install the InstallSHield problem on Linux 7.2 - keep in mind it has been out for months and Windows 98 SE can still not install it. So basically you have to downgrade to Windows 95 and lose stability just to get Linux installed or if you want the stable version of Red Hat you have to get Windows NT based kernel O/S (that stands for operation system for you non-techies, basically it handles stuff like compilers and floating point data) like Windows NT 4.0 Workstation or Windows XP. So that means you are looking at spending at least $200 for Linux Red 7.2 to just get it up and running before you even buy any applications for it - hey you Linux biggots I thought it was free? Yah right, everyone knows you get what you pay for, Linux is free so it is crap. And by the way I spent $29.95 calling Microsoft Technical Support trying to see if those gurus could help me get Linux 7.2 installed and they said they are no longer supporting it... everyone knows with out tech support you may as well not even use the program cause if something messes up on it - you're screwed! So apparently Microsoft sold off Linux to another company... and guess what they don't even have a phone # to reach them at! If Linux can't publish a street address and phone number it just proves they are too chicken to backup their product because they know it is garbage!
We were *fighting* fascism, mmm?
For my engineering/chemistry professor last year i needed to write a Biographyon this man. My biography is pretty in depth and a worthy read if anyone is interested. It can be found @ http://artlu.net/essays/wernerbio.html Enjoy, AJ
-------
artlu.net
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- Marco
I submitted a story about how they are using fetal tissues to cure parkinsons disease, but that isn't news worthy I suppose. Just some stupid history making in progress.
Dumb ass editors
...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
At his request
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-Hot aussie princess
Heisenberg's War: The Secret History of the German Bomb,
Thomas Powers provides lots of interesting detail, citations, background. From reading various sources, I see Heisenberg as badly misjudged and misrepresented. I think he was basically a good guy in a very bad situation and, integrating all the available material, it feels like he basically did the Right Thing, and played a key role in keeping the German nuclear program working in directions other than building a bomb.
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld
You know what?
I imagine they talked about beowulf clusters!
Slashdot seems to tolerate the posting in full of articles from other sites, even though doing so denies the original site the ad revenue from the page views that would otherwise go to it. So it's not only copyright violation, it's likely to really piss people off. I'd hate to lose Slashdot as a resource, which could happen when some hostile party demonstrates that this is a repeated pattern.
But some people may not be registered, you say. Yes, and Salon charges $30/year for their premium service. I know, let's cut and paste all their good articles so that people don't have to pay ...
and so the site goes broke.
The worst part is that copyright violators get rewarded with good karma. This is backwards, these people are endangering Slashdot itself.
The "Making of the Atomic Bomb" was written by
Richard (not David) Rhodes, for which he won a
Pulitzer Prize. Doesn't exactly inspire great
confidence in the NYT's QA program...
Shortly after WWII, Werner Heisenberg was held captive by the British government at Farm Hall along with several other top German scientists. The British secretly taped the conversations at Farm Hall, and these tapes were declassified in 1992. (It took prolonged and strenuous efforts by several historians, and members of the Royal Society to persuade the government.) Heisenberg was at Farm Hall when the US dropped the bombs on Japan in August of 1945. When he heard the news, he was astonished that the US had separated sufficient U235 from U238 to obtain critical mass. He was also surprised that the US also made a plutonium based bomb. (The methods used to extract U238 and Pu were made by a chemist working under Enrico Fermi in Chicago. Without the knowledge provided by that chemist, the US would not have had either bomb for perhaps another year.) Since Heisenberg was surprised, we may assume he simply did not know how to get enough weapons grade uranium. Nor could he make enough and separate enough plutonium for a bomb. He had enough uranium to make a small nuclear reactor. Which he did create in a cave in southern Germany. The US army found the cave and removed the materials. The assessment by US scientists was that the reactor was never put to use. Apparently war efforts hindered Heisenberg's attempt to get all the resources he needed. And, towards the end of the war, the effort was abandoned. It is likely that Heisenberg knew he could not make a bomb and persuaded the Nazi government to allow him to make a reactor instead. Whether he had only technical reasons for the change in policy is unknown. He may have had moral reasons for preventing the Nazis from getting a bomb, but there is no public source of information to support that hypothesis. In 1941, he may have wanted to make a bomb, or knew that the Nazis wanted him to make one. In either case, I think he went to Copenhagen to ask/tell/warn Bohr about the Nazi plans. During that evening, he and Neils Bohr went for a walk. Bohr's wife, Margerethe, reported that they both left the house that evening in a good mood. The walk in the dark was short, only a few minutes. Neils Bohr came back quickly, and in a foul mood. Heisenberg followed him back inside. They did not talk about much later that evening. Later in the war, Bohr's family secretly got into a boat at night and left for England, and then America. Heisenberg stayed in England for some time, as a "guest" of the British government. In 1947, he was allowed to visit Bohr, and his British handler went with him. During that meeting, he and Bohr agreed that "we both came to feel that it would be better to stop disturbing the spirits of the past." (From Heisenberg's memoirs.) Bohr and Heisenberg continued their friendship after 1947, and until Bohr died in 1962. Bohr kept that friendship even though most Allied scientists shunned Heisenberg.
Dont forget to vote for me as most hated troll on slashdot!!! Vote here or here
- Marco
Hari Seldon's Psycho-History.
I just saw Frayn's play "Copenhagen" last night in SF and really must urge all of you to see it if you can. Regardless of what truly motivated Heisenberg the issues raised are far more reaching. I walked away with the following: -we sometimes lack the perspective to understand our own motivations -mechanistic thinking is flawed, we should move to a a more systemic approach (the aspect of Heisenberg's Uncertainty theory applied similarly as in Fritof Capra's work "Turning Point") my 2cents. thoughts?
He was an OSS operative.
There's nothing that specifically indicates this, of course. But look at the human site of the game. Here was a man who worshipped Einstein, who had many other associations with Jewish scientists, and who himself narrowly escaped academic blacklisting when the Nazis took power. And somehow he ends up as scientific chief of a major German weapons project!
There's actually a well-documented meeting with an OSS agent in Geneva. Official histories state that Heisenberg was there to give a talk, and the agent, Moe Berg, was there to determine the progress of the German bomb effort and (at his own discretion!) terminate Heisenberg. Supposedly Heisenberg told Berg that the project wasn't going well, and Berg took his word for it and let him live. Not, in my opinion, a very plausible story.
OK, no evidence at all for this theory. But it's worth thinking about.
Additionally, at the time they had most of the resources of continental Europe at their disposal if they wished.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
As for working capital and manpower, the Nazis were simply stealing or forcing much of what they needed.
Someone had to say it, why not me?
Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
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- Marco
when i was 19 me and my freind rented out a two bedroom appartment but that has nothing to do with what im going to tell you the appartment was sort of beach house yet it fasted a small island of the coast oof san fransisco and there was some sort of large building now im terrorfied of ghost i coulndt stand a hour with them thats why this had to be the worst night of my life my best freind dared me to go onto the island and go into the buildingof course i said hell no but he started calling me a chiken and other insults so i said ok the next day we packed evrey thing that could be of use to us i even brought my fathers rifle (witch wasnt relley a use to me later) and we headed to the island(we rented a moter boat) and around 30 minutes later we were there it was a 10 minute walk to the building it was a very very old housearound 3 floors and it was by far they most horrorfing sight ive ever saw why i went in ill never know but when you get in there you have a strange felling come over you like you were unwelcomed but stupidly enough we kept on going ujtil the worst possible thing happend i lost my freind and all i could think was that i was going to die i started running to the exit of the house until i incounterd a red blur of some sort and it started to come near me so i loaded the rifle but it wouldnt fire all i could say was "fire you F***ing piece of s***" and i just droped the rifle and it fired then i rememberd that the gunshot didnt do anything(well of course it was a ghost luckly my freind was waiting at the dorr and we ran out and drove the motor boat home i then voud i would never return to that island agian
Copy good stuff that people spend many long hours developing and release it for free. Have they ever had an original thought? They just copy OSes (starting with Unix), and apps.
I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Horror/Sci Fi writer Stephen King was found dead in his Maine home this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.
See you tomorrow!!!
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- Marco
I agree, an excellent and fascinating play.
Would that have f**king made the g*ddamned f**king s**tty plays any f**king better?
Having seen Copenhagen and Proof, I feel that the superior drama was most assuredly "Proof." However, from a techno-geek's standpoint, I can see why the submitter might enjoy Copenhagen more.
'hagen was definitely more cerebral & technical, and used physics as a metophor for ethical struggles.
Proof was a much more personal play about a woman's relationship with her father (and indeed, the world around her.) The math is simply part of the plot, not interwoven with the primary thrust. I saw both original casts, and both were phenominal, but the interaction between Mary Louise Parker and the cast was one of the most thrilling dramatic performances I've ever witnessed. She was incredible.
As a coincidence, the young male lead in Proof was played by Ben Shenkman, who was the young rabinical guy in "Pi."
While I loved Copenhagen, and I love Robert Westenburg (one of the male leads) I felt Proof was the far superior play.
Re-Return to Castle Wolfenstein.
Mission objectives for Sgt. Blascowitz:
- destroy experimental german nuclear powerplant
- fight off radioactive zombies (they happen to look like micheal jackson)
- rescue scientist niels bohrenstein
Here's my story. Some friends of mine had a house in 1994 in college. They told me about all kinds of strange things. One time, they were downstairs and there was a loud pounding going through the whole house for about 3 minutes. Another time, one roommate thought he heard another in the next room arh=guing with someone, no one was in the room. A few times, they would leave and come back and all the doors were open. I only lived there for one summer and had only one thing happen to me. I was in my room alone and just got this creepy feeling. After a while it got worse until I HAD to get out of the house, I was petrified. I HAD to leave. The worst thing though, happened at the end. We had all left for home for two weeks but one guy stayed. He was alone in the house for about two weeks. He was acting weird for a few days after we got back. At this time we had all moved out and he was still the only one there. I caught him outside "praying" once in the back yard. A few days later, he killed himself. He was in probably the worst room in the house. We found a note that was mostly illegible. I just remember one line. "God is God, You're not God" I actually haven't thought about that place in a while, but we were talking about it the other day. I just realized today that our friend died this week seven years ago. Have you ever heard of something like this?
Moe Berg was a Major League baseball player. I don't remember what team he played for, but he was a catcher.
In the early forties (before Pearl Harbor), he was a member of an exhibition baseball team that went to Japan. It is believed his real purpose for being on the team was to spy on Japan for the US.
During the the war, Berg was an OSS agent. IIRC he had a genius level IQ.
USA Today ran (and printed) an article about Dave Thomas and Fark. Apparently, one too many moms fired up AOL and headed over; the site is very much down. It's serving pages now, but nooo cgi!
Let's hear it for mySQL!
One of the reasons that we study history is to learn from our mistakes. If we did not ask the "what if" questions, then we would not be able to analyse other potential problems in our procedures, chains of command etc.
For example, you may go out drink driving and get home safely. Hopefully, when you've sobered up you realize what a stupid thing it was to do (based on the "what if I hit someone/killed myself/got caught by the police/etc") and make a consoius effort not to do that again.
You're high. Copenhagen was mildly interesting but way to contrived. And they never touched on quantum at all, which I find improbable. But most importantly, Proof had much more engaging characters and better acting (I saw the JJL version) even if the subject matter wasn't as highbrow.
Actually, I was trying to be Insightful, not Funny.
The Sunday Times and The Times have always been separate publications. Nowadays Rupert Murdoch owns them both, and has been combining some of their operations. But that's a recent development.
The Sunday Times registration process has an amusing flaw. Tried to tell it I was born in 1830. Not acceptable. 1890? Nope. 1899? Get serious. I meant to try "1900" next, but typed "2000" by mistake. That was acceptable! Apparently 1-year-olds read the Sunday Times, but not centenarians!
People keep asking that.
We had the resources to make 3. What if Nazi Germany beat us, and made one first?
I think what would have happened is that we would have immediately nuked Berlin or some other such German country, instead of Japan.
I don't think we would have lost. I think that if Germany developed the bomb first, it would have pushed us even harder; not only is it possible, our scientists would have thought, here's how to make it better. Faster. Cheaper.
We would have responded in like.
One small capacity nuke could not take out the US. Germany probably would have targeted something in Russia, a much bigger threat, and much less likely to have a nuke to retaliate with.
Of course, this begs the question, what was the Russian nuclear capability of the time?
I imagine the cold war would have taken a much different turn, as stockpiling of nukes would be much less desireable. Would we have turned to genetic and biological weapons instead?
GPL Deconstructed
Despite the after-the-fact romancing (of a guy who would very probably have delivered the Nazis an atomic weapon if he could have) there's good reason to believe that the only thing preventing Heisenberg from developing the bomb were his own miscalculations. Not the least of which was his determination that the amount of fissionable material required to create a critical mass was much greater than was actually required (there's a fascinating theory vs. engineering story behind that, but you can probably look it up.) This calculation led him to believe that any atomic weapon would be enormous and hard to deliver.
After the war Heisenberg was taken to a detention center in the UK where he was surveilled with listening devices. When the he learned that the US had dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, he was stunned, and (IIRC) initially remarked to his co-detainees that we must have found a way to deliver a colossally huge bomb or something of the sort.
Some have theorized that Heisenberg was both extremely clever and extremely loyal to the German people-- so much so that he deliberately foiled the Nazi research effort, then faked disbelief in order to mislead the Allied eavesdroppers. Personally, I think he just blew it.
But you're right. Judge for yourself.
That's probably somewhat misleading. The US didn't suffer "strategic" bombing late in the war like Germany did. What about 1943?
tell that to the Axis Powers who destroyed my Allied Teams radio tower on Return to Castle Wolfenstien last nite!
"In science there is only physics, all the rest is stamp collecting." Ernest Rutherford
There is a very nice German made for TV movie called Ende der Unschuld (= end of innocence). It deals with the German attempt of creating a nuclear bomb and the scientists at Farm Hall.
Actually german industry *increased* production in 1944 and was at it's peak. (a testament to the genius of Albert Speer, nazi war armaments minister) despite allied strategic bombing.
As for the figures in 1943 I imagine the U.S. still had a lead - however I could be wrong and I bet the farther back you go (1942,41) Germany probably had a lead at some point int he early stages of the war.
In fact I believe at various times they actually had three going (of course as with everything in WWII Japan the Army and Navy had one each; would you believe the Army had its own *submarines*!). As far as producing a weapon goes they actually got further than the Germans.
There is a good Japanese book that has been translated into English (The Day that Man Died or something like that) that deals with the Japanese programs as a lead up to its main topic of the bombing of Hiroshima. Appropriately, I bought my copy from the USS Arizona memorial site on a visit to Pearl Harbour !
No, I am not interested in claims of a Japanese nuclear test at the end of the war in China; I'll believe it when I see the UFO come out of Hanger 18...
Ah, yes, but was the American way the only one? Given America's massive economic resources and freedom from air attack, the massive expenditure and facilities on the Manhatten project in a sort of scattergun approach made sense. But if you're Germany, smaller and under constant attack but with superior scientific traditions, what is to say that a more analytical approach might not have produced the same results?
On the Luftwaffe 1946 web site there are some very speculative but very interesting possibilities of how the Germans could have (a) been designing a totally different type of bomb (b) come up with a way of producing plutonium that did not require the full-blown nuclear reactors at Hanford.
See "http://visi.net/~djohnson/armament.html"
A stable,unified and democratic Europe is in the interests of the U.S. The U.S. was brought into the two world wars in large measure because a non-unified Europe fueled the creation of undemocratic powers whose military aggression eventually threatened the U.S. Arguing that U.S. security is served by fostering a fractured, bickering Europe is arrogant and blindly foolhardy.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
How reliable is the source of information ? Witnesses, again ?
He worked at Berkeley.
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They made two cores. One was used at Trinity, the other at Nagasaki. Those two cores were all the US had available for a couple months. The Pu came from Hanford Washington. The Hiroshima bomb was a gun type Uranium bomb, which was so simple it didn't require testing. Which is why people are more worried about enriched uranium getting to terrorists than they are about Plutonium. U is much easier to make a bomb out of.
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There was no atomic bomb being close to developed, you can get some accurate information. here
Your Momma's so fat she makes emacs look like nano!
According to the Farm Hall transcripts, Heisenberg had miscalculated the neutron mean free path, and he was off be an order of magnitude or more in his estimation of the critical mass. He realized his error, and was able to recalculate correctly, only after learning of the Hiroshima bomb. The Germans wouldn't have been able to make their bomb without a correct estimate of the mean free path and hence the critical mass, which Heisenberg didn't have until after the war in Europe was over.
Has someone been playing too much wolfenstein or do you really think the nazis made tesla-shooting 'Lopers'?
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"Perhaps we should praise the brilliant inventors of nuclear weapons, since those weapons have apparently halted the practice of 'world war'. Peace is a good thing, right?"
We only have relative peace. Here are some wars (just off the top of my head) conducted after 1946:
Korea.
Vietnam.
6 day war (Israel vs Egypt[or arabic countries])
The Gulf War.
The Balkans.
Pakistan vs India.
Tchechnia.
Tens of civil wars in Africa.
IRA vs Great Britain
Afghanistan.
Or did you mean wars that took place in the US?
Just because they aren't fighting in your backyard, doesn't mean they aren't fighting.
Peace is a good thing, but don't think for a moment, that we have a global peace.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
Both America and Nazi Germany committed to the development of an expensive, problematical weapon
with possible "war winning" potential. The German rocketry programme cost reputedly as much as the Manhattan Project, and achieved far less. It is a historic irony that Nazi Germany founded the technology which allowed the American A Bomb to be married to a rocket.
Robert Goddard's tin toys can not be considered the ancestor of the ICBM.
Hopefully, these books don't give any credence to the myth that Heisenberg and his team were secret anti-Nazis who deliberately decided not to develop a Nazi bomb. The post war interrogations prove that the German chose a path that didn't work. A complex project like the A Bomb required a multitude of decisions. The Allies tried THREE ways of refining weapons grade uranium, gasesous diffusion, magnets and centrifugal. Only the US could afford, as a country secure from invasion or attack, to speculate on the bomb.
The best book on the subject is probably Robert Jungk's "Brighter than a thousand suns". A good book on the effects of the a bomb dropping is "Miracle of Deliverance", author forgotten unfortunately.
It is NOT just a matter of "registration required" but rather COOKIES required, which means that those users behind Junkbuster (and other cookie-clocking) proxies can NOT see the article, period.
How many times do we have to point this out before someone listens?
And how is it, sir, that you know which theory I speak of? Your post assumes there is but one theory of multiverse. This is incorrect. There are many theorys about multiple universes, in fact, the very theory ITSELF, if true, dictates that there MUST be more than one theory of multiverse, because a different conclusion could, and therfore must, exist! Feynman, therefore, is not the end all, be all of multiverse theory.
As for the statement that you "prefer reality to Star Trek," I assume you meant this reality, because, according to a theory of multiverse, there exists a universe where Star Trek IS the reality. :-) Something to ponder!
"Da ist ein Technölüst in mein Unterpanten!"
They already had lost over a million men at Stalingrad, what could be worse? They were going to fight to the last man, this after Stalin had already offered previously to surrender vast tracts of Western Russia to the Nazis.
And had nuked American cities ?
"Oh those poor Americans in the WTC! What? Those thousands of people nuked in Japan? War is hell, get over it."
Why do you have to be so patriotic and defend shitbrained homicidal military actions done years before you were born ?
By the way, the German nuclear program wouldn't have succeeded in time even if there was no project Manhattan. I thought this was common knowledge.
"Proof" is also a great 1991 movie out of Australia that starred Hugo Weaving (aka the future Agent Ssssmith) in one of his first movies.
A real good little black comedy, as long as your tastes don't run towards Harry Potter, Nickelback and whatever other soylent green the corporate entertainment machine has manufactured for you today ...
One simple rule for its versus it's
I just finished reading "Inside the Third Reich" by Albert Speer. Speer was Hitler's architect and later Minister of Armaments and War Production. Thus any program to develop an atomic bomb was under Speer's ministry. He said that they were working on one, but due to Hitler's poor leadership and executive decisions, it never got the priority it should have. Speer claimed that Nazi Germany could have produced an atomic bomb by 1947. That of course, he said, was inconsequential because the United States produced theirs by August of 1945.
A very similar story was on /. about a year ago. You know, the pepople in charge of posting stories to /. should know the site's history as well or better than the average reader (me).
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Stupid people suck.
... This book points up the fact that Heisenbergs' graphite moderator was heavily contaminated with Boron, Which Fermi was very careful about.
The boron content made it impossible for H. to duplicate Fermi's successes with natural uranium.
The Big Question Is: Did Heisenberg know about the boron contamination, and its implications, or did he not understand its importance, or did he not understand about neutron absorption at all?
He actually built a reactor similar to Fermi's. (It is talked about in the book.) That we found it is how we know about why it didn't work.
But was it built that way on purpose, just to fool the Nazis, (No one would have noticed the boron unless they were an excellent physicist) or did he fsck up and miss it?
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
American Scientist had a really good article on this back in 1996.
Heisenberg had estimated that a ton of U-235 was needed to reach critical mass, which was, of course, a huge overestimate. This is the reasoning he gave in a conversation with Otto Hahn immediately after being surprised by the news of Hiroshima (the conversation was secretly taped by the Allies):
"If I have pure 235 each neutron will immediately beget two children and then there must be a chain reaction which goes very quickly. Then you can reckon as follows. One neutron always makes two others in pure 235. That is to say that in order to make 10^24 neutrons I need 80 reactions one after the other. Therefore I need 80 collisions and the mean free path is about 6 centimetres. In order to make 80 collisions, I must have a lump of a radius of about 54 centimetres and that would be about a ton."
Can you see the mistake in his logic?
The Germans never *had* a bomb program.
They were doing some studies on nuclear materials with a view towards military applications, but had no specific usage in mind. The 'bomb program' was created by lazy journalists and editors who (in 1945) conflated 'nuclear' with 'bomb' in that same way they do with 'computer' and 'Wintel' today. The myth of the 'bomb program' has persisted despite the utter lack of evidence that Germany was pursuing a bomb. (Almost every study of the 'bomb program' has started with the assumption that it existed, which is poor logic and poorer scholarship. Very few have started from zero and seen what conclusions come from examining the evidence without bias.)
The myth of the 'ethical scientists' is largely the same face saving nonsense that came postwar from almost every German who had any affiliation with the Party or the Military.
> But if you're Germany, smaller and under constant attack but with superior scientific traditions, what is to say that a more analytical approach might not have produced the same results?
Germany's superior scientific traditions were lost when all the best minds went to the other side of the ocean just at the Nazis were taking over. Many of the people who made the bomb fled Germany and Italy.
Also, German scientists were mostly theoreticians, not experimenters or engineers. Remember, these were the theoreticians who came up with quantum physics *theories*. They had hardly any "analytical approach" at all. When it came to making the bomb, among the hundreds of thousands of people working on the Manhattan project, the Americans employed hundreds of engineers for every theoretical scientist. Of the several hundered people employed by the Nazis to make the bomb, the people were mostly scientists and technicians. Most of the German engineers were working on the V2 and non-atomic bombs.
> On the Luftwaffe 1946 web site there are some very speculative but very interesting possibilities of how the Germans could have (a) been designing a totally different type of bomb (b) come up with a way of producing plutonium that did not require the full-blown nuclear reactors at Hanford.
The Nazis never made one atom of plutonium. They did not know how. Even if they did know, they did not have the resources. After the war, German scientists were astonished to discover how much the Americans knew about plutonium, how much the Americans made, and that one could make a bomb out of it.
on this linkd el inger&open=http://www.nbi.dk/Welcome.html
http://ntserv.fys.ku.dk/afg/default.asp?menu=af
you can read all the papers on the subject.
What rimes on recursion What rimes on recursion What rimes on recursion What rimes on recursion
soory it was the wrong URL here it is:
http://www.nbi.dk/NBA/webpage.html
yours
eske
What rimes on recursion What rimes on recursion What rimes on recursion What rimes on recursion
Paraphrased from Mark Harrison, "Resource Mobilization for World War II: The U.S.A., U.K., U.S.S.R., and Germany, 1938-1945," in Economic History Review XLI, no. 2 (1988): 175-177, 187, 190.
...should read Jorge Volpi's In search of Klingsor - it's a truly great novel by this young Mexican author. I don't know if it has been translated in English yet - the Spanish title is En busca Klingsor. The book is about a young intelligence officer named Francis Bacon (!) who's sent to post-war Germany to investigate the German's atomicbomb program and the mysterious lead scientist behind it named Klingsor. The meeting between Bohr and Heisenberg is in it too.
It's really a fascinating book and I'd recommend it to everyone interested in either physics, nazi's, WWII or conspiracies.
If I was him I would have just built some caravans in citys like paris and warsaw and stuff and moved em across the autobahn to rush the manhatten project.
Vaughn "Its always darkest before it goes pitch black."
First, slightly off topic - how 'right' we were to drop the nukes on Japan.
Oh, we were so righteous, weren't we? Saving all those lives by doing it, and forcing the Japanese to surrender, eh?
Considering they were willing to surrender. We said, "No, thanks.", nuked them for *no* *other* *reason* than to show off to Russia, and then said, "Okay, you can surrender now."
Yes, yes, the Japanese commited atrocities during the war. Pearl Harbor wasn't one of them, sorry. We were already in the war - we had pilots in British planes, we were sending them destroyers, munitions..
No, Japanese atrocities were commited elsewhere, like China, and of course, in the treatment of prisoners of war.
But what did we do? We rounded up Japanese Americans and put them into concentration camps, complete with inward-facing machine guns, starvation and disease.
*shrug* Sovereign nations have but one duty above all else - to protect their citizens. I don't think there's a country that has ever existed that hasn't resorted to questionable means to do this on occasion. But please, take a look at our own past before you people start screaming, "Waah, atrocities! Atrocities!"
Anyway, back to more on-topic things. Germany, getting the bomb before us. It'd have to be several years ahead of us for them to have done any damage. By the time we had the bomb (And indeed, awhile before that), they would've had quite a difficult time delivering it to U.S. soil.
More likely, if Germany would've achieved nuclear capability before us, they would've chose a closer, less risky target, such as Britan or Russia. Indeed, given Hitler's annoyance with Britan for holding out so long, and his personal rivalry with Stalin, I don't think we would've had to worry about the first strike being on our soil.
Awesome comment! Mod this one up!
The U.S. could achieve wholesale destruction of German and Japanese cities using conventional bombs. This was possible because the U.S. had complete and total access to the skies over Japan and Germany by the second half of 1944. Germany and Japan did not have this advantage.
Had Germany had an atomic bomb, it could have snuck it over London at night and destroyed the city, which was something it was clearly unable to do with conventional weaponry due to Germany's inability to fly large numbers of aircraft in enemy airspace.
Likewise, Japan could have used a small submarine in San Francisco harbor to place an atomic bomb, however they were totally incapable of hurting an American city with conventional bombs after 1942.
At least they have plenty of geothermal and hydroelectric energy resources. Reykjavik is the city with the clearest air I've ever seen, including other skandinavian and canadian coastal cities.
There's some confusion here about gun-type designs vs. spherical implosion systems. Trinity was the first test of spherical implosion, using plutonium. Hiroshima was a gun bomb, with two subcritical pieces of U-238 forced together with a gun-like arrangement.
Incidentally, those aren't the only possible geometries, just the simplest ones. Linear implosion was developed in the 1950s. Other geometries have been developed, but are still classified. As greater compute power has become available, it's become possible to simulate, and thus design, more complex implosion geometries.
This is a major argument for export restrictions of "supercomputers". Still, all the major developments in nuclear weapons were made in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s. Every desktop machine today has orders of magnitude more power than the supercomputers of the nuclear establishment in 1970. It's not clear why we still have "supercomputer" export restrictions at all.
Heisenberg wrote a book called "Physics and Beyond". Or maybe "Physics and Philosophy". One was the sequel of the other, I don't remember which. Anyway, in a big part of the second book he talks about his days of working on the nuclear stuff, and makes it seem like he was trying to work on a nuclear reactor and not a bomb. He says that this is why he was cleared in the post-war trials, and that the evidence showed this pretty clearly. But he wrote the book when he was pretty old. Maybe he was trying to convince himself of something, since he was headed for the grave.
fun, fun, fun en the autobahn.... ...meet david bowie and iggy pop
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the U.S.A's interstate highway system was a defence project under FDR?
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