Slashdot Mirror
Tracking Down The AMD "Processor Bug"
tercero writes: "over at the Gentoo Linux website there is an update on the AMD processor bug mentioned here. The sum up is that AMD claims it's not a bug with the Athlon processor, but with the motherboard. More detailed information can be found on this LKML post."
An Anonymous Coward points to a similar explanation at Linux Weekly News.
Update: 01/25 01:25 GMT by T : Daniel Robbins from Gentoo clarifies: "AMD is not
calling this a 'motherboard' issue, it is an interaction between a
feature of the Athlon called 'speculative writes' and the design of the
GART, which is not cache-coherent. It's a 'Athlon/cache coherency/GART'
problem, not a 'motherboard' problem."
I have seen both mem=nopentium and
append mem=nopentium.
Do I need the append or not?
Thanks,
Greg
2+2=3.9999999999999999999999999999983774
Oh wait that ws Intel.
Hammer of Truth
According to young bald children everywhere, "There is no bug".
In related news, the motherboard manufacturers are quoted as saying, "It's not a bug with the motherboard, but with the Athlon processor."
--SC
You read fiction? I write it! Lemme know what you th
And it's never our program that has your bug.
Meanwhile, we're feverishly fixing your bug in our software.
"Yes sir, we've patched around the OS problem and this should get rid of that nasty bug you were seeing."
Don't blame AMD entirely. They acknowledged the bug back in September of 2000 and immediately released patches for Windows 2000. Consequently, it doesn't affect users of Windows XP either. It's been around for over a year and now it's "news"? This should've been fixed in the Linux kernel months ago. Sorry for sounding so harsh.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
Bugs in chips now? Not just software? Hmm...
It's an optimization for Windows XP!!
ender-iii
"The GART and the CPU see two different views of memory, and it's the kernel's responsibility to map memory in such a way as to prevent bad interactions. Currently, that isn't happening."
what exactly is the percentage of chips affected? i've been personally in the presence of 3 different athalon-based systems for extended periods of time that did not seem to have this problem.
The kernel will look for the parameter
/etc/lilo.conf configuration file.
mem=nopentium
and turn off 4MB pages (which may or may not prevent the problem from manifesting -- the situation is unclear at this time). You can do this at the boot prompt like this
LILO boot: linux mem=nopentium
or by placing the configuration directive
append="mem=nopentium"
in your
See the manual page for lilo.conf for the details.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Mac OSX isn't making the kind of surge they had hoped for. Pre-sales of the new iMac are low (although the machines are really cool!), and with so little market share to work with, Apple's fate is sealed.
Even Time's review was less than glorious, and had a very ominous feel to it.
Too bad, too. I kind of like the fruity little buggers.
--SC
You read fiction? I write it! Lemme know what you th
Today, software and hardware vendors across the world have finally released full specs on all their previously 'closed-source' products, taking blame for inherant 'bugs' or flaws.
In other news, Nintendo has signed a deal with Microsoft and Sony to port their world known games to the competitors console systems, and slashdot users deem Windows XP 'pretty okay'.
Film at 11.
your jesus is another mans xebu. chew on that hypocrites.
Windows *is* a bug...with huge security holes.
Transistors and Beer!!
Mac users don't have to worry about using the term 'Gigahertz' either.
"Derp de derp."
although i SHOULD mention that until VERY recently one of those boxes that happened also to be using an Aureal Vortex 2 soundcard (good soundcard... damn shame about the company) was experiencing lockups on sound play until someone discovered that you have to run this line:
/sbin/setpci -d '12eb:*' 40.B=ff
before using the soundcard in order to keep athalon systems with aureal vortex-based soundcards from locking up.
frankly, i'm not even sure what the hell that line
does, it's magic. i don't even know how you'd go
about figuring something like that out, but at least now i can use my soundcard in linux... damn shame about windows. heh.
This is embarassing to the Linux community as a whole, and It also explains why I've had problems with crashes on two different systems running Linux and Athlons.
What I don't understand is how this could have made it so far? This is exactly the sort of problem I have been telling people we don't have in the Linux world, and now it looks like I was wrong. Is this pointing out an underlying problem we have with QA in the Linux kernel? With Open Source in general? What can we do to make sure that a bugs of this magnitude are detected more quickly?
Sigs are awesome huh?
Yesterday, information became widely available that described possible stability issues (system crashes, hangs, etc.) when using an AGP video card under Linux in conjunction with an AMD Athlon processor. It was generally called a "bug" in the Athlon CPU.
2 6960/.
More information is now available at http://www.gentoo.org, including an analysis of AMD's response. AMD's official response was posted to LKML, and is available at http://www.geocrawler.com/lists/3/Linux/35/175/76
There is apparently some kind of bad interaction between the AGP GART ("Graphics Address Remapping Table", I think?), speculative memory operations performed by the Athlon processor, the memory mappings used by the kernel, and cache coherency. The details are beyond me, but the practical upshot appears to be that the wrong data ends up being written back to main memory at some point.
I recommend reading the above LKML thread if you suspect you are affected by this issue. Information is still being uncovered, and it is not immediately clear how this occurs, what causes it, who is affected by it, and how to work around it.
In particular, there is some uncertainty as to whether the "mem=nopentium" option actually prevents the problem, or merely makes it less likely to occur.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
LOL! Amen to that, brother.
Recently one of my friends, a computer wizard, paid me a visit. As we were talking I mentioned that I had recently installed Windows XP on my PC. I told him how happy I was with this operating system and showed him the Windows XP CD. To my surprise he threw it into my microwave oven and turned it on. Instantly I got very upset, because the CD had become precious to me, but he said, "Do not worry, it is unharmed."
E lO E5IOCC98D444AA08EI324
After a few minutes he took the CD out, gave it to me and said, "Take a close look at it."
To my surprise the CD was quite cold to hold and it seemed to be heavier than before. At first I could not see anything, but on the inner edge of the central hole I saw an inscription, an inscription finer than anything I had ever seen before. The inscription shone piercingly bright, and yet remote, as if out of a great depth:
12413AEB2ED4FA5E6F7D78E78BEDE820945092OF923A40E
'I cannot understand the fiery letters,' I said in a timid voice.
"No but I can," he said. '"The letters are Hex, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Microsoft, which I shall not utter here. But in common English this is what it says:
'One OS to rule them all, One OS to find them,
One OS to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.'
It is only two lines from a verse long known in System-lore:
'Three OS's from corporate-kings in their towers of glass,
Seven from valley-lords where orchards used to grow,
Nine from dotcoms doomed to die,
One from the Dark Lord Gates on his dark throne
In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.
One OS to rule them all, One OS to find them,
One OS to bring them all and in the darkness bind them,
In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.'"
AMD claims it's not a bug with the Athlon processor, but with the motherboard
According to young bald children everywhere, "There is no bug".
In related news, the motherboard manufacturers are quoted as saying, "It's not a bug with the motherboard, but with the Athlon processor."
Funny, I didn't think I was bald...
It's an Athlon bug if you think doing speculative writes is a bug.
It's a motherboard chipset bug if you think that the AGP controller should play nicely with cache-coherence protocols (right now it doesn't, presumably to gain a speed boost).
It's an OS bug if you think that the OS should be bright enough not to make AGP-touched memory cacheable (it wasn't intended to be).
I'm voting for option 3), myself.
"this is something....that mac users dont have to worry about. :)"
While I suspect you are correct, there is/was discussion on LKML about whether or not other architectures would be vulnerable to this issue. The PPC was specifically mentioned.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
From what I've read (you did read the links provided) it looks like the problem occurs when the operating system tells the processor that memory mapped onto the AGP bus is cachable.
Does n't look like a big show stopper to me.
it's not a bug with the Athlon processor, but with the motherboard
I somehow wonder if this is related! I had a P3 system, with Gforce 2head card everything was working fine, I replaced the motherboard for an ASUS P4B, and a intel P4 chip. Ever since I intermitently get a BSOD, (bad pool caller).
Point is, isn't this very similar to the problems that AMD were reported on Win2k system without the patch?
Actually, Linux PPC kernel developers are taking this issue very seriously since it *could* potentially affect PPC systems too. No confirmation, and probably *not*, but a long conversation ensued over the PPC's "BAT" on LKML....
Best Regards,
Daniel Robbins
Daniel Robbins
Well, I'll be darned. Vendors pointing the finger at each other. Who'd have thought?
Information is still sketchy, but this appears to be a design issue (i.e., different components interacting badly due to assumptions) rather than a bug. It could even happen on non-Athlon systems, if the processor in use happens to tickle the same conditions.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Pardon me for sounding harsh but...
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
Firstly, Jobs has been back at Apple since 1996/1997. Uh... one, two, TWELVE! No.
MacOS X wasn't intended to make a surge - rather, it was meant to gradually move into the market place. It is doing this - more people are moving over to MacOS X every day. I know because I'm a hard-core UNIX geek, and I bought a new iBook and a PowerMac G4 800DP. 40% of Apple's computer sales are from people who have never owned a Macintosh before.
iMac pre-sales are doing great. Demand has been, according to all sources, very high. Hence, they are not able to meet production demands right away, and some units will be shipped a bit later. All this because no one's buying, right?
Apple posted a $66 Million profit in the quarter ending September, and some $38 Million profit for the quarter ending December.
Between November 10 and December 30, more than 125,000 iPods were sold (one to me, too - listening to it right now - it is awesome) - at $400 each, that's some $50 Million in revenues. On a fucking MP3 player.
The Titanium G4 PowerBook has been selling like crazy. I know because I live near an Apple store, and every time I'm in there, someone else is buying one. No joke.
The new iBook has got to be one of the most successful consumer portables ever. And it hasn't even been out for a year yet. It is selling faster than you can imagine - and to big customers, too. Maine ordered 36,000 for their teachers and students. Some district in Virginia ordered 24,000.
All this because Apple & the Macintosh are dying?
Apple has been "dying" for the past 20 years. Shit, I used to spout the same BS. I hated Apple and the Macintosh. However, one can only lie to oneself for so long - with MacOS X and the new hardware lineup, Apple is churning the best personal computers in the industry today. One pays a little more (on the high-end machines), but they are rewarded with a premium machine - much like one pays more for a BMW than they would a Geo Metro.
Only two computer manufacturers are making money currently. Apple & Dell. To quote Steve Jobs, "Dell does it by being Wal Mart. We do it by innovating."
Well, however they do it, they're the only computer company doing anything exciting in the field today. One must applaud them for that.
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
I also noticed that as I run programs, not all the memory used by the program is freed when the program terminates. I ran the System Monitor and it revealed to me this information. I'm not sure if this is Athlon or Windoze related. Anyways, I'm suspecting that the problem may not be limited to Linux boxes.
I have been to the AMD site, the Microsoft site,
and all of the others mentioned, but I have yet to see any mention of any version of Windows being affected other than Windows 2000. Windows XP is not affected - I found that out here and on the AMD site (Microsoft's site, oddly enough, does not mention this). Does anyone know if the bug affects Windows 98?
if my computer hasn't had any lockups in 3d? I use a voodoo card and they don't take advantage of agp so that doesn't help me. Is there another way to find out?
"You can kill a man, but you can't kill what he stands for. Not unless you first break his spirit."-Smoking man,X-Files
This is a problem with the way the AGP GART memory mapping is handled in the linux kernel. So once again, slashdot got it wrong. Please, skim the articles in question before posting..It is a minor, elusive buglet in the linux kernel memory management.
This is all caused by AGP. Once again, the race for more frames per second in quake3 has caused a stability damaging technology to become mainstream.
ugh..
john.c
- --
"I Hate Quotes" -- Samuel L. Clemens
From the LKML post linked in the story, it seems it's because some 4MiB pages (I couldn't understand why 4KiB pages aren't affected, if they effectively are not) are allocated for the AGP (GART more specifically) with some bits set telling it is cacheable.
Why would somebody want to cache the AGP memory? I'm pretty sure it's used 99.99% of the time as write-only memory, because it's the main output method of most computers. What's the point of caching that? It can only prevent the use of the CPU cache by some more important things, no?
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not very familiar with the usage of AGP memory (or GARTs).
Compaq is currently making money as well, though its tough to consider them in the same class since less than a third of their business is PCs anymore.
It could be either the motherboard or the OS which is collecting and writing stall data. About the only conclusion to be truly drawn so far is that it is unlikely an AMD defect. I'm sure AMD would like this to be the case too!
Religion and science are both 90% crap..but that doesn't negate the other 10%.
battle realms keeps crashing on my machine?
What a crock of shit. Maybe I should make some software using AMD quirks and then claim that it proves the problems with the problematic Intel chips.
As if "lower cost" has shit all to do with it either.
If the bug doesn't appear on intel chips, then how are we supposed to believe that it's not an AMD bug? Sure, we could blame the motherboard... but wouldn't that mean via/intel solutions would carry the same issue?
Anyone have any knowledge as to how intel treats this 4mb pages different?
I mean, if the bug is caused by AMD's precaching of AGP Gart mapped memory, and intel just doesn't precache that memory, then now is it NOT an AMD processor bug?
When two processors aren't equal, there has to be a reason for the difference in running software.
(Note that I prefer AMD, so I'm just looking for answers, not trolling).
Gimme a break. None of the software described, including the Everquest upgrade has NOTHING to do with 'quirks' people programmed on purpose. It's just a fact of reality that AMD isn't 100% compatable. Or do you think this whole slashdot article you responded to is all a conspiracy against AMD by Intel to make them put bugs in it on purpose. If anyone is a troll, it's you.
They are evil! They contribute to global warming, fund animal experiments and promotes terrorism.
That's interesting. The EQ patch never affected my Athlon system. You must be using an inferior motherboard.
.... "don't blame me, its a motherboard problem"
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
Hmmmm.
Is the Bug...
- (A) In the Athlon cache?
- (B) In the chipset?
- (C) In the AGP-using devices misusing memory?
- (D) In the Linux kernel?
Well, AFAICT, the real bug is in the communication of relevent knowledge.These kinds of bugs would have significantly shorter duration if the specifications for all four possible culprits in (A)-(D) were openly published, completely, for all to see.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I recently put together an HTPC (Home Theater PC) based on an ASUS A7V133 (Via) motherboard with AMD Duron processor. It runs Windows 98. I had been experiencing an unbelievable number of random lockups (no blue-screen, no error... just locks). For the most part, I couldn't keep the system running for more than an hour or so.
In doing extensive research on the problem, I found very large numbers of people with the same problem and very little explanation. I tried MANY different solutions and eventually found one that worked. It involved wiping everything out and installing hardware and software in a VERY specific order. It seems that if you don't install the VIA 4-in-1 drivers (which include GART) at just the right time in the system building, the drivers don't work properly and thus the random lockups.
I wonder if this is in any way related to the problem here.
-S
--- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
If you paid attention to benchmarks you'd see that in almost every case AMD has a higher cost effectiveness than Intel. If you have some specific examples of why AMD is not a good choice (as opposed to vague, illogical ramblings) then why don't you share them? Prove that your mumblings are, "not made up of bugus stuff"
Awww....cheap shot ;)
Besides, if the rumors are true, Mac dual-processor single-GHz boxen will be available within a month...
± 29 dB
How do I block these page lengthening posts?
The really sad thing is we have this wankerish little friends/foes system, which only puts nicely coloured dots next to someones name, but we still can not choose to ignore a user!
FreeBSD users don't have to worry about it either.
And I hope AMD feels a pinch from this. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see it break them. But, if hardware manufacturers realize that turning their backs on Linux can hurt the bottom line, then it will probably be better for all of us in the long run.
Because geocrawler seems to be /.ed: Athlon/AGP issue update.
Hands in my pocket
How about this entire slashdot topic as proof why it's not a good choice? Hello?
When Linus switched to the AA VM, I got the impression that one of the key differences between the AA VM and the RvR VM is that Rik's VM is much more flexible, but with that flexibility comes complexity, which is why Linus switched to AA's VM. AA's was much simpler to understand and helped to stabalize the VM problems. Does the above quote mean that the AA VM isn't going to be able to handle the requirements to fix this bug? Is this a plug to put back RvR's VM?
I'm not trying to start a flame war here, just want to understand if I understood what the final paragraph was saying. Please mod me down if I'm way off base, but help me understand too!
Key to financial independence: Spend less than you earn. Save and invest the difference. Do it for a long time.
>Lower costs typically means lower perfomance
.. in CPUs, it's the value of a larger consumer base, which essentially translates into a higher possibility of latent design flaws (ie, they exist in the costlier platform as well, but are found earlier because of the larger user base), and the value of being in the same boat as everyone else should a product fail in some fashion.
/doesnt/ work, thats not performance; it's either compatibility with the outside world or a design flaw. Anyhow, I feel sorry for your view, because I guess you're paying alot of money for brand security .. but everyone in-the-know computer geek I know (I'm a C++ developer, so I'm not talking tech fanboys here) knows that you'd have to enjoy wasting money to justify buying Intel CPUs at this point in time.
.. it has already been fixed in Windows, and there is a known Linux workaround. So really, there's not much of an issue, and my AMD chip still cost me half the price of an Intel CPU, and benchmarks faster than the Intel, to boot! Keep buying your Nikes! I just want the shoe. :)
What planet are you from? Lower costs (in the case of demonstrated similarity in performance) typically means lower demand and lower consumer valuation of the brand name, which means smaller user base, which means that it generally takes longer to run into compatibility flaws.
For instance, Nike is more expensive than Puma. Does that mean Nike shoes are better? Of course not, it means people are more willing to buy Nike, because they percieve that the brand gives them additional values. In the world of shoes, that value is the value of conformity and fashion
Thue funniest thing is you're talking about performance. Performance is how well something works when it works. When it
Lest you cite this situation as a reason why I might be wrong
"Old man yells at systemd"
>I>essentially translates into a higher possibility
er, I meant lower possibility of latent design flaws with a large user base. A smaller user base increases the likelihood of problems existing unnoticed for an unspecified amount of time.
"Old man yells at systemd"
According to the article, it is not a problem with the motherboard at all. The problem is "the operating system is creating coherency problems within the system by creating cacheable translation to AGP GART-mapped physical memory." That means it's a problem with the OS, not with the motherboard or processor.
In truth, we should probably say it is a combination of a problem with the OS and a problem with the processor. After all, Intel processors don't have the same problem, simply because they work differently. So while it may not technically be the CPU's fault, the CPU does play a part.
pentiums had problems with floating point numbers. Fp are inherently lossy due to their violation of standard mathematical rules. Just ask a Cray programmer about the nasty workarounds they learned like the back of their hands.
I am not familiar with the kernel mechanisms for allocating GARTs, but it sounds like all you need to do is have the agpgart.o module, when it's creating a GART, somehow tell the kernel memory allocator and the page table handling code not to set up this region as cacheable.
:)
The problem is that probably none of the page table code cares to distinguish between cacheable and non-cacheable pages. But anyway it shouldn't be too bad to set up such a distinction.
Anyway I haven't looked at the kernel code that relates to this yet so I am not sure if I am over-simplifying things... but I trust that someone will have a hack to fix this soon (a hack that doesn't cost anything in performance, unlike that mem=nopentium option), and a proper patch that is more beautiful would probably come out a few days after that....
However, since NVIDIA's stupid bloated drivers contain their *own* agp GART code, we would also have to coordinate with that vendor to get them to change their GART code to behave properly. Either that or you can try using the linux kernel's agpgart.o with NVdriver, but in my experience Very Bad Things happen why you do that!
-Calin
Last November, I upgraded my motherboard to a new DFI one with the AMD 761 chipset, but kept using the same processor (a Duron 700).
After the upgrade the bug hit me (the computer would lock HARD every time X started)- at first I just thought it was bad RAM, but replacing that didn't help. Eventually I figured out by my own troubleshooting that unchecking the AMD 761 AGP chipset fixed the bug....
Since the bug only appeared after the upgrade to a motherboard with an AMD 761 chipset, this makes a lot more sense. (Using the kernel option mem=nopentium fixes my problem, so it must be the same bug....)
You are assuming that AMDs current explanation is 100% true, correct, and complete. There are good reasons to doubt this.
The "explanation" so far has just raised more questions. Why does the same code that causes the athlon to crash work fine on pentiums? Apparently the GART is cacheable on pentium systems? And the Athlon is billed as pentium-compatible...
Why does disabling large pages fix the problem? If their explanation is correct, that fix should not work, because it doesn't address the issue they claim to be the problem.
I'm sure this will get worked around in software (and the linux fix will actually workaround the underlying problem, rather than just making it less likely as the windows world seems to be satisfied with) once the real details of this are known. But to claim it's not a hardware bug is ludicrous. It's a bug with the Athlon CPU, or with certain GARTS found in Athlon chipsets, or both. If AMD were less worried about spin-controlling it and claiming it's the software at fault maybe they would be more forthcoming about what is really going on here.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
It's not a bug, it's an "undocumented feature."
If the rumors are true, they'll announce a 1GHz box within a month, and it might be available by Christmas.
Speaking of rumors, didn't the iWalk have a 1GHz processor?
Mark him as a foe, then change foes to -5 or something like that.
I don't care what the percentage affected is. All I know is that mine is one of them!
I've worked for months trying to get DRI hardware accelleration working right. I can start any hardware-accelerated 3-d app and it will lock my system solid in about 4 seconds. All this time I thought it was a software problem. I can't even express how much wasted time and frustration has resulted from this.
One line added to lilo.conf and everything works now.
-=-=-=-=- osjedi uses Debian GNU/Linux. -=-=-=-=-
Get the story straight:
"Our conclusion is that the operating system is creating coherency problems within the system by creating cacheable translation to AGP GART-mapped physical memory."
Of course the Bug exists, but the chances of it actually affecting anyone or a malicious entity taking advatage of it are next to nill in the real world...
Seems everyone has a form of plausable deniability. The rule i seem to notice when dealing with bugs in software hardware vendors is "It's cooler to add new features than fix the problems with the ones we've already got"
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
Hello? How about my point that this isn't the first hardware bug to hit the world, and that AMD has no monopoly on hardware bugs. See the Linux source for workarounds for all sorts of hardware bugs, almost all having nothing to do with AMD. Are you just stupid or do you have stock in Intel?
Allbeit less lossy than Integers...
I'm not sure about the battle.net thing, It's always worked fine for me.
However, the Word problem appears in Word2k on every computer I write on for more than an hour.
It seems to crash whenever I paste things (even small things) after about an hours work. This has been tested on:
AMD Duron 600
Intel P3 500
AMD K6-2 300
So, my guess is that this is a microsoft issue, and it is highly annoying.
Maybe a service pack fixes the problem.
Hmm... my post 'Mac users don't have to worry about using the term gigahertz' post got modded down as flamebait.
The original post of 'Mac users don't have to worry about this [the Athlon bug]' is flame bait, my response was a humorous way of saying why 'this is why buying a Mac won't solve my problem.'
An Off-topic moderation wouldn't have bothered me since I didn't spell out my reasoning, but I do feel the flamebait call was bad.
"Derp de derp."
apple should dump motorola and buy into ibm's power4 processors for their really high end workstations...
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
We have looked and looked and looked and can find no bug to in the AMD processor. We suspect it is another Intel media scam to discredit AMD. AMD is the Best! Intel cannot compete!
...Slashdotters that always point out their favorite OS isn't vulnerable to a particular bug.
My Macintosh isn't affected by this bug due to its PowerPC processor.
I have a website. It's about Macs.
That option might make a difference with NVidia cards, but it's not going to make any difference to anyone who's using something else (except for making their Xserver fail to start, because of an unknown option in the config file).
The mem=nopentium option to the kernel works everywhere for this particular problem.
himi
My very own DeCSS mirror.
I've been having this same thing happen on my K6-2 machine. And curiously enough, lately when I've tried to use SUSE's online-update, as soon as the downloaded updates start to install, the screen gets garbage all over it, and on one monitor I get logged out with a dirty login screen, and on the other I've still got a dirty version of my desktop there.
I believe that's the currently proposed fix - it may change as people understand the details more, but I think that's the basic idea.
himi
My very own DeCSS mirror.
Doesn't work if you surf below 0 because CmdrTaco has told us that if you surf that low you don't deserve to be able to filter out posts.
I think he's wrong (and it isn't the first time -- see my sig), but hey, I don't run the site.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
BOy where have I heard that before... oh yeah every 2 years since there have been macs..sheesh.
FYI I don't own a mac, but I will purchase one next time I want a computer.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Why doesn't your ISP use AMD for servers?
They probably do. Well, depending on size. If they're AOL-sized, I doubt they use PCs at all.
If they're smaller, they probably use AMD chips. Certainly they used celerons and other cheap technology.
There are two types of setups.
1) Very expensive server with the best (and best "name") hardware money can buy.
2) Cheap crap in a fail-over cluster.
For many things like email servers, news servers, etc, the cheap cluster is most cost efficient, easier to maintain (want to fix one? Unplug it and the others take over automatically), and easier to build.
While your ISP may not use AMD (the saving for a cheap duron + mobo vs cheap celeron + mobo aren't great when you get into motherboards with integrated video and lan) they would if it saved them any money.
There are some taks that are hard to "fail over" and those require a sturdy server, but even then, as long as it's not rack mounted, AMD has a good reputation (with an AMD chipset).
KB = kilobyte = 10^3 bytes = 1000 bytes
MB = megabyte = 10^6 bytes = 1000000 bytes
KiB = kibibyte = 2^10 bytes = 1024 bytes
MiB = mebibyte = 2^20 bytes = 1048576 bytes
This is a new standard designed to eliminate confusion, particularly as the discrepancy between powers of 2 and powers of 10 becomes very large when dealing with today's storage sizes (such as terabytes), and ensure that kilo and mega mean what they have traditionally done in science and every day life rather than the unofficial twisted computing adaptations.
MINOR CORRECTION: Others have claimed that MiB is a symbol/abbreviation of mibibyte. It's acutally mebibyte. The binary names always use the first two letters (first syllable) of the SI prefix.
Okay, so if this is a mobo bug, which boards are affected? Anyone have any problems with the Athlon MP 1800+ and the Tyan Boards (more specifically with S2460)? What other boards are affected?
What do you mean, "nobody's fault" - that's unamerican!
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
x=42
Still #1 -- Lonely Gay Geek
"What's the point of a sig about your email address when you don't even display one?"
When I wrote that signature, Slashdot had the concept of a "display email address", which was always shown. I had a spam-guard in that field.
Then I did not visit slashdot for about a year. Things have changed.
Anyway, since you pointed that out (thank you, BTW), I have updated my signature to include the spam-guarded address that was previously displayed automatically. (No, I do not trust the spam-guards built-in to Slashdot.)
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
So what. You can give an extra +1 bonus to every moderation and browse at 0, while assigning -6 to your foes. It's equivalent to browsing at -1. Works for me.
Yeah, XP was to stable so they brought back that good old 9x feel!
Get your Unix fortune now!
Linux marked the memory uncachable. Linux also
has a cached mapping of up to 894 MB of RAM,
so the AGP memory is mapped twice. Linux does
not access via the cached mapping, but accesses
to nearby regions cause speculative writes into
the AGP memory. These speculative writes don't
cross page boundries... but Linux uses giant
4 MB pages for the kernel for extra speed.
OK so far, but get this: the processor reads in
a cache line for a memory write, MARKS IT DIRTY,
and then cancels the write. So there is a dirty
cacheline by accident, and the stupid processor
will write it out later. Before that happens,
the AGP video card writes to the memory and
doesn't bother to let the CPU know about it.
So then the cache line gets flushed, plopping
old data on top of new and even wasting a
memory bus cycle to do it.
I vote for a +5 Informative mod. :-)
299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
You wouldn't wear them, would you?
I had the same opinion about wasting money on Intel, so I bought AMD. Though I'm glad you're having a good experience with your AMD, I simply can't agree:
I really don't agree with your feeling that performance is how well something works when it works. If that were true, I could just stay home from work most of the time and kick butt when I show up. (OK, I sort of do that now, but that's another issue...)
Performance, in my book, is a judgement of how well something is doing its job. My AMD 'sometimes-kickass' workstation is not performing well in my opinion, even though when it does run, it runs great.
If I look at the system as the tool that it's supposed to be, it simply isn't giving good performance.
Let me explain:
I have a few boxes on a small network at home - My main workstation is an Asus/AMD 1200Mhz setup running RedHat 7.2 - Before that, it was an Asus/AMD 600Mhz setup. Both systems have had the same problems, even though *Every Component* has been replaced in an effort to track down the problem. This morning, it froze a few minutes after the screen saver kicked in.
Each time this happens, I have to do a hard reboot. The other day, I added that mem=nopentium option and it still has the problem.
I used to have some big drives in the PC, but they were getting thrashed by the powerdowns, so I replaced them with a single 10GB and moved the 2 60GB drives to the server in my laundry room.
The server, by the way, is an old 300Mhz IBM with an Intel chip and it happily chugs along, serving files by Samba, database stuff, CGI/Apache stuff, SSH logins, VNC logins, whatever I happen to throw at it.
This is a machine that I literally snagged from the trash, but you couldn't *pry* it from me at this point. I just ran uptime on it, just for kicks:
11:39am up 155 days, 13:45, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
So, do I regret spending so much time and money on AMD? Yes.
Would I buy them again?
No.
To me it *is* a performance issue. The AMD system has not done its job.
YMMV,
Jim in Tokyo
-- My Weblog.
I am running Windows XP and have been trying to get this problem solved for XP too. I have to put my GeForce 3 in "PCI Mode" in order to use any 3d apps or games and it crashes constantly in 2d, getting stuck in strange driver loops.
I'm not even close to the only person out there who's stuckk with crappy performance because of this problem. I know there's a problem somewhere between Microsoft, Via, and AMD but that's as far as I personally can get. Hopefully this will be taken care of soon.
Abit KT7A-RAID
Asus V8200 Deluxe GeForce 3
Athlon Thunderbird 1200/200
I'm spec'ing a Dual Athlon 1800+ MP workstation for scientific work and calculation. I'm planning on using the Tyan Thunder SMP board - the one with optional SCSI, 2 onboard NICs and an onboard ATI card. This machine is going to be used only for calculation, desktop work and coding/compiling. Due to some standardization issues it's going to be running 2.2.x not the 2.4.x kernel. No 3d gaming on this box.
;)
Is this machine going to run afoul of this bug? I have heard that its a problem in the 2.4 kernel but nothing about 2.2. Since its using ATI instead of Nvidia will that make a difference?
I know, its gauche to not act suave and opinionated on slashdot but I actually need to know something
Thanks!
This seems to be a completely different bug than the previous article. That bug was about the virtual memory translation table. It's in the AMD processor revision guide as errata #16. It's a processor bug. That bug seems fixable with the mem=nopentium flag. The bug mentioned in the latest article (Tracking Down, etc...) is about cache coherency semantics, which is a completely different beast.
>Works for me.
:-(
How do I upgrade my account to include options for +1ing "overrated" moderated posts too? I'm missing that option.
I must still be in the old database. Oh well... Perhaps you wouldn't mind asking CmdrTaco to add that feature to my account?
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
No doubt!
;)
I say mod this poor bastard up too. Its good comment. I wish more posts were of this quality.
(as I get modded down for: agreeing with a mac applogist(flaimbait), asking for a good mod (offtopic), seconding an idea (redundant) and adding this comment at the bottom (flamebait) ouch...)
Sorry, should have read:
as I get modded down for: agreeing with a mac applogist(flaimbait), asking for a good mod (offtopic), seconding an idea (redundant) and adding this comment at the bottom (troll) ouch...
hate it when I screw up a crappy joke
Save this as a .reg file, then double click it. It *should* work. (Was exported tree, got cropped in Notepad)
n tr ol\Session Manager\Memory Management]
---Cut here---
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Co
"LargePageMinimum"=dword:ffffffff
---Cut here---
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
-- What do you need?
-- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
I just built a new AMD Athlon system with 512MB ram, NVidia GeForce2 MX 400 GFX card and the system will freeze alot (RH 7.2). Redhat 7.2 on an Intel system we have is rock solid. When the AMD system freezes, the only way to get out of it is to hit the reset button. This is with or without the mem=nopentium option added to the kernel during booting. So, I hope there is another solution besides mem=nopentium because it ain't working for me.
Wait a minute, that means that not only did Windows and Linux have the same problem, but Windows got patched first.
Oh Noooooo!
We programmers must be getting soft, not fixing a kernel bug that has been around for 2 years. (as you can see, I think the OS is responsible for stopping memory used by AGP devices from being cacheble, not the CPU or mobo)
D/\ Gooberguy
Karma: Meh (Mostly from meh.)
I've got karma to burn. With 3 down-mods, I'm at 47 now. So it's no big deal. It's just sad that people don't recognize the truth. Of course, the idiot above me got one downmod and that's it, even though he was spouting off complete bullshit. Oh well...
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
"I think it won't work out, because there's too much legacy stuff that there will always be confusion at this point about what "mega" and "kilo" mean with computers."
Not to mention the fact that computers are incapable of "thinking" in anything but a power of two. You will not find a discrete quantity of 10 (or a power thereof) bytes anywhere in a computer system. This makes the SI units useless for computers. While re-defining them for use in computers was and still is an abuse, the lack of applicability of the conventional SI units makes it largely a non-issue. The only people who care are are HDD manufacturers who rate drives in "millions of bytes" so they can swindle stupid customers.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
My secret wish would be for Apple to support AMD x86-64 processors with MacOS X...not that it'll happen. That would be a great combination.
On the other hand, if they can really hit 1.5+ GHz. with the G5, that'll be OK too. Just a lot more expensive.
299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
Well. To address 2 points...
:P). Now, I am using Linux on the Athlon and OS X on the G4, so you can draw any comparisons you wish.
Yes, Slashdot moderation is ridiculous. Period. It's the biggest problem with Slashdot, and that's why I hardly ever read it anymore.
As far as Apple and processors... the G4 is a pretty good processor, and I have a Dual 800MHz G4 and am loving every second I get to spend on it... but I also have a Dual Athlon MP 1600+ (1.4GHz) and the Dual Athlon spanks the shit out of it at all the things that really matter (Quake 3
That having been said, the G4 is a fast machine. But... It was $4,000 with monitor ($500 Sony CPD-G400), whereas with a $1,000 monitor, my Dual Athlon was only $3,000. The only differing factors is that the Athlon has a GF3 Ti500 (the PowerMac has a GF3 regular), the G4 has 128 more megs of RAM (whoopty doo), and the G4 has an extra 60 gig drive. Now I'm not complaining - I think the machine was worth what I paid for it. But for $3,500 (computer itself), you'd think it should spank the shit out of a $2,000 computer (okay, $2,100 with shipping and all).
The point is, the G4 isn't that fast. Apple really would do better to put in some AMD processors, knock the price down a LEETLE and be able to claim that it really *did* burn Pentiums (instead of just with Adobe products).
One can only hope...
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.