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Linux & the Business Desktop
Ulwarth writes: "Desktop Linux is running a feature documenting a mid-sized company switching to Linux on the desktop, like the City of Largo but this time in a corporate environment. Proof that it can be done - at least for businesses which need only the 'standard' office apps."
If this keeps up, the Tux icon will soon be sporting Borg apparatus :)
I guess the upcoming release of KDE 3.0 will make this step a lot tastier for a bunch of businesses.
Just my two cents.
We'll know that Linux is truly ready for the desktop when these stories no longer appear.
As long as "Linux on the Desktop" is newsworthy, then linux has not really gained acceptance.
Why do you say "only standard Office apps"? A mid--corporate bussiness nowadays has a backoffice software apps for Linux, Desktop publishing for Linux, Data-mining apps for Linux, etc. maybe you don't find it on all Linux package distributions. But it is a "easy task" to get it.
------I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either.------
Not only companies running only office-apps switch to linux.
Dreamworks in glendale Los Angeles, CA has switched large parts of their desktops to linux.
And been successfull in the transition too.
- To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion -
I know this topic has been done to death, but there *are* folks out there running they're offices MSFT - free! I am currently working on a contract replacing 12 desktop systems with Mandrake (as it seems the most professional and stable ditro at this time). The file / print servers were switched over to FreeBSD months ago. This can be done!A great resource can be found ..Here..
While the Linux desktop movement has been a slow climb up a steep hill, I think that it really has progressed a lot farther than people let on. I know of a couple of business that are moving to Linux desktops, but only in instances where "core" Applications are being utilized, like StarOffice or KOffice.
In areas where no specilized Windows-based Apps are coming into play, I think the Linux Desktop is at a point where it can be used in a corporate environment.
~.Evanrude
I like the way that they describe the practical side of the transition - i.e., moving new users over instead of people comfortable to sit on the top of the learning curve that they've already scaled.
My outfit is looking at Linux desktops in a more scientific and engineering environment.
But we share a similar need to deal with the ubiquitous .doc, .xls and .ppt files that are endemic in the corporate world.
I like their setup with KDE, but I've thought that using Evolution would be a nicer MUA.
It's great they can do so well with StarOffice 5.2 that has its share of glitches and user interface problems.
If only StarOffice 6 would finally come out!
I believe that single product, SO 6, with updated filters for the aforementioned "standard" file formats and non-monolithic user interface, will do more to unleash a flood of Linux desktop migration than any other single product (unless AOL 9.0 includes Linux).
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Where does it say anything about the size of this company. I see nothing specific regarding size.
Also, lets clarify the definition of a companies size. Everyone has a different perspective regarding small, midsize and large. In my mind, a mid-sized company would have several thousand desktops. Large companies have tens of thousands of desktops.
Trust Commerce = Tiny.
I know that Linux has some decent GUI's available, but I would wager that the final push needed to get it more mainstream is for someone to make a GUI that looks 95% like Windows GUI.
Don't complain, don't tell me that Linux GUI's are better. That's a moot point. We're talking about end users who just want to sit down and work with a minimal amount of retraining and confusion.
IT departments can be as smart and savvy as they want to be, but in the end it comes down to simplicity for the end user. Make that and Linux will have a much better chance. When no one notices that they're using Linux, you have succeeded.
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Nope sorry, you use Windows XP.
No, dude, Linux rocks because its open source and free! Of course, its only free because the people who actually use it don't make any money, so their time isn't worth anything. Thus, even though they spend entire days getting their system to a usuable state, it doesn't cost anything.
Linux should take a page from Apple. They put out a little ad booklet in Time (and elsewhere) and devoted 2 pages to dispelling myths. They didn't use cyberspeak either. They just gave some very real questions ("Everyone uses Windows" for example) and answered them. It was a great piece of PR. Linux could learn something from it...
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I run linux on all my desktops, I also run vmware with windows on it for office work. Since vmware/win2k/office2k currently uses less cpu than staroffice I'll stick with this. Works well, especially when windows has to reboot...
i work at one of canada's banks, at the corporate university. another comp sci guy and i were successful in moving most of our servers (~25) from NT to linux or back to solaris (bank *loves* solaris).
now we're attempting to deploy linux on 20% of the desktops (~10 people).
we've already realized that we'll need to cram VMware on some of them (flash developers) but i consider this just a transition period. hopefully things will go well and we can divert some upkeep dollars to R&D...
I'm not against Linux on the desktop in a corporate environment. I'd love to switch our users here, just so I could post to the /. community that a major corporation with $$B has made the switch. But I can't, and won't for any forseeable future.
None of these "Linux on the Desktop" articles has pointed to any company that used more than standard desktop and backend server apps. Find me a story where a company that has a $100M invested into their custom accounting/billing solution has decided to throw it out and spend another $100M to rewrite the software for Linux. When that happens, let me know; then I'll say Linux is making inroads onto the corporate desktop.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
If that isn't KDE 2.2 then what is. It can look and feel like Windows. At least 95%. Yea, the panel looks a little bit different than the Windows Task Bar but, the rest looks a LOT like Windows. Works great too!
Very good, sir. You took my comment to its logical conclusion. a +5, Insightful to you!
You think Linux is a corporation? With a PR department full of marketroids? If you do, I've got a hot news flash for you. It's not.
Best Slashdot Co
I have found here Mac users actually LIKE my setup on my Workstation, funny, I HATE MACS :)
:)
:)
:)
I have Ximian Gnome on Rh 7.2 , 2.4.18pre7-rmap12a , its great, BUT in a mixed Mac and PC enviroment, throw Linux and Solaris on top of it an what fun Admin duties I have
We MUST retain the Mac enviroment, before you blast, we have equiptment in the near millions thats control software runs ONLY on Macs,
I am about to embark on a changeover for several PC users to Linux , they will I am sure be as productive, It all depends what you do.
Hell for games, and MS word applications I have a PC at home although it has become my wife solitaire machine running terminal server, I connect from rdesktop
If youve been with Linux for a while (me since RH 2.0) Think back to 5 years ago then 7 , would you have ever thought Linux would be in a place to compete on the generl destop market ?
Now think ahead, say 3 years....
Linux as a whole evolves VERY differently than windows and its apps, things that seem to liger for years, all of a sudden , en masse become sttable and usable, and latley pretty.
In 2-3 years Linux will be in a SERIOUS position to threaten ALL aspects of MS business, the beauty is there is absolutley nothing MS can do to stop it, or even slow it down, soon will come the time they have to embrace it offering their apps for it, when that happens it will be the death knell of MS operationg systems......
I have reached Karma cap and need no more please give my mod points (if any) to those less fortunate
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
From the article:
Yes! This is a great point to make. Of course non-free apps are not where the world should be headed, but we should start with the OS. That's far and the away the most important thing. Once that's done, the apps will follow. At least until then, non-free apps for free OS'es are a Good Thing.
Like the spaghetti sauce, it's in there. Call it what you like but, for me the following is no different than the BSOD. This is a partial listing as it seems that the lameness filter is setup to block Kernel Panic posts.
Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address 0000d7c5
*pde = 00000000
Oops: 0000
CPU: 1
EIP: 0010:[]
EFLAGS: 00010206
eax: c166ae00 ebx: 0000d7c5 ecx: 00000000 edx: 0000d7c5
esi: c7b28b40 edi: c166aba0 ebp: 00000060 esp: c1253d8c
ds: 0018 es: 0018 ss: 0018
Process swapper (pid: 0, stackpage=c1253000)
Stack: fffffe00 c01d706b c7b28b40 fffffe00 c7b28b40 c01d7653 c7b28b40
c12ad800
c7b28b40 0000000e c7b28b40 ffffffe6 c01da0f7 c7b28b40 00000020
00000004
c7058f40 0000000e c01ddfed c7b28b40 00000001 00000000 c7b28b40
c01e7ea0
Call Trace: [] []
Code: 8b 1b 8b 42 70 83 f8 01 74 0b f0 ff 4a 70 0f 94 c0 84 c0 74
Kernel panic: Aiee, killing interrupt handler!
In interrupt handler - not syncing
.
Linux & the Business Desktop sucks. People should stop using Linux & the Business Desktop and start using LINUX.
Singapore Civil Service considers switching to free Office Suites. Staroffice is a leading contender.
If you switch to a free OS but keep the proprietary apps, then the apps won't run!
D'oh!
- Applications
- Training
- Accountability
Linux will never become big on the desktop until something is done about these major issues. Linus, Alan, et. al. need to get off their behinds and tackle the major unresolved issues behind their OS. GUI developers need to quit worrying about transparent windows and drop-shadows and get working on making their systems stable and functional.When a business upgrades its systems, it wants proven reliability in its equipment. Applications such as StarOffice and KOffice are high on glitz and glamour, but lack the backend to fulfil this stability requirement. While Corel and Microsoft focus on ensuring their system works before incorporating new "features," the uncoordinated Linux effort works to force nifty "features" onto an unstable backend. This means that while I can do some interesting graphic and font modification, my attempts to save throw Kernel panics and crash my system.
Almost 100% of office workers in the present work environment have been trained to use Microsoft Office. Most students come out of college having used Microsoft Windows as their OS, Microsoft Word to type their papers, and Microsoft Excel to do math projects.
Switching from a Microsoft base to a Linux base means a great deal of downtime while workers are retrained to use their new desktop environment. System Administrators must be trained or hired to work with a new system base. Technical Support people must learn how to handle the millions of innanely obtuse error messages thrown by any one of 1000 different applications installed by default on the new systems. (Why is xterm crashing with a tcpdump error message? I'm not running tcpdump!) Each user must be trained in how to login to their system, navigate a new and dramatically different desktop, then they have to be trained in how to use a brand new office suite. While this process can be spread out using staged upgrades, the downtime still adds up.
In the end, the Linux kernel is maintained by a group of hobbyists. As with the applications, these hobbyists put a large amount of time into programming glitz and glamour features into the kernel, and neglect important functions such as scalable SMP support, efficient VM managment, clean TCP/IP communications, and such. These important functions end up being "fixed" by other hobbyist programmers whose fixes usually end up making systems less stable.
While there are groups available for support, many of those groups are closing shop because they aren't getting business. It's a vicious cycle. Anyhow, there's only so much those support people can do. (Red Hat: "We can't support that because none of our people have used it or tested it with Linux. Look it up.")
When Linux becomes more like Windows, more people will use Linux. That is a fact!
When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
"There is a terrorist behind every bush"
I would like to start down this road at my place of work, but we are pretty much set on Exchange as the e-mail server for the mid-term. Is there any Linux desktop client that can perform the functions of Outlook with the mailbox residing on the Exchange server?
sPh
The day that AOL includes Linux is the day that I start looking for a way to move to mars.
Can you imagine it now? "You've got root!"
Joe H.
42 - So long and thanks for all the fish.
Also there isn't an open source equivalent for scheduling and messaging software, such as Exchange. This is something I would really like to see change before too much more time elapses.
You're using her as bait, Master!
more likely a MS saleperson will meet with with upper management, spread scary rumours and offer large discounts to switch.
These discounts will slowly reduce with every upgrade cycle as the company becomes more addicted to MS products.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
KDE uses the single-click paradigm by default. I hate this, but I realize some people like it. I can turn it off, which is great! However, that means I also have to double-click to open branches in a treeview. Not good. Having a desktop pager on the taskbar is wonderful and one of the most powerful features of the *nix desktop. Sadly, KDE destroys this one by insisting on messing it up by printing the virtual desktops' names in the pager.
The Gnome menu is totally uncofigurable unless you're logged in as root. Ouch! *nix desktops would also benefit from eg. letting apps add context-menu items to file-types (in a uniform manner) so that for example xmms could add items like "play in xmms" and "add to playlist" á la WinAmp. No, it is not sufficient that filemanagers recognize mp3's and let you specify your favourite mp3 player. What if a new program Qwerty plays
The list goes on and on and on... And naturally it takes time to take care of all the items on the list. But some fundamental flaws like the Gimp GUI should never have been allowed in the first place.
I'm probably the only person in my company running a Solaris desktop, and still am able to function quite adequately. In fact, much like the Linux folks, all the tools are there. (There is even Internet Explorer for Solaris! Can you believe it?) PDF viewer. MPEG viewer. DOC/XLS via Star Office/Open Office. Lotsa other little extras I forget at the moment.
I still do my email via Netscape mail. But the article pointed out the Ximian Evolution mail reader. I went to the Ximian site, and they have the desktop and Evolution both available for Solaris. I'm running the download/install now. Hopefully I'll be on my way to a mega-desktop.
See also: Linux on the desktop
It's exciting to see all the different open-source office apps getting developed. The thing that bugs me is the lack of standardization going on.
It's great that kwrite/star office/every other similar project can open and write documents in MS word's native format, or save them in their own format; But this still leads to balkanized document formats. It's less bad, because at least the formatting is open rather than proprietary, but it seems like needless duplication for each project to develop its own markup system.
The ideal solution is an HTML-like approach where anybody can use whatever WYSIWYG front-end they like the best to write docs. The office app's job is to insert the correct standardized markup codes.
Sadly, although this is exactly the sort of problem XML can handle effectively, not too much is going on.
Or maybe i just don't know about it.
--
Long-term effects of Bush deficits
We need more of these stories to share experience.
I love Linux and averyone that loves it.
"Today, the vast majority of document exchange is electronic; the paperless office has (more or less) been achieved"
The paperless office is no where near being achieved.
"will allow businesses to rid themselves of an older, less functional technology (proprietary software)"
More crap. How is MS Office less functional than StarOffice?
"and we're doing business just as well (and arguably better) than before."
what proof do you have of this?
This who article has about as much credience as a paper on Microsoft's site extolling the virtues of their products.
KDE is quite windows-like; and most window managers
have a "Redmond" theme or some such.
There are even window managers, fvwm95, qvwm, that
go for the 100% windows look. As a sysadmin, I loved
giving an old version of qvwm to people because it looked
& worked like windows, but they were unable to move or
change icons; configuration was done in a text file.
Keep in mind that there are a lot of companies where the majority of employees do the majority of their work in mainframe sessions. My company switched from dumb terminals to Windows PC's running terminal emulation sessions, only a few years ago. It took another year to convert everyone from the mainframe messaging system to "real" e-mail (OK, MS-Exchange). I've always wanted to try switching one of our customer service reps' PC's with a Linux box, just as an experiment. As long as it had a "MS-Windows-looking" GUI and their familiar 3270 sessions, they probably wouldn't know the difference.
I have a very low spec laptop running debian and it is great for all things CLI, but X is slow and can not manage more than eTerm.
Reading this article makes me hunger for a 1024x768 KDE system stuffed to the gills.
ERR 411[Max number of witty sigs reached]
I've looked at rolling some linux desktops out. Here's a list of problems I ran into
KDE and Gnome, neither runs well on 64 megs of ram.
No easy migration. I inherited exchange. I dont want to completely replace it over night with a nix mail server, in addition to rolling out linux desktops This would be a nightmare. So where's the easy migration from exchange to linux? The only one I've seen is Evolution, and it's exchange support isn't done.
I thought the various Office's were fairly nice, at least for what most people in the company use Office for.
We have various active x required custom web based apps that are intrical to our business.
This is the biggest. We have an AIX backend with IIS front end, but the company that makes this package decided to write all the software in active x.
What do people suggest for PIM? Is there palm support in PIM's? I haven't looked at this area yet.
If exchange support came out, I have certain departments that don't require much else (take a guess..if you say sales, give yourself a cookie!), but who wants the technical hassle of supporting two(or more if you count various flavors of windows) OS'S?
I came up with a few more problems, but don't have time to add more. I'm looking forward to any naive answers from linux zealots that don't understand how corporations work.
security through obscurity = modding down anti-linux posts so maybe noone will see them
I always wondered if a GUI that looks like 95% Windows is the right way to go?
I have often seen users look at the KDE GUI that say:"Hey that looks like Windows" that are extremely disappointed that it doesn't work like Windows.
A GUI that looks different may be a little more intimidating at the first look, but the users will not assume that it works like windows. This will lead to pleasant surprises when it work like windows and things that work in other ways will be accepted easier. Not the other way round.
Pretending to be something you are not is the wrong way to go here (i think).
Re-writing an already-working system is not a good idea.
However, when you implement a new system; make sure that
it will work on both Windows and Linux. It takes a long time,
but if you stick with that approach, Linux desktops will be
a possibility.
I am watching this trend with interest; last year there was one customer like this per month; so far this last 3 months I see one or two per week. Much like the ramp of Thin Client or web based computing this trend hopefully shows that critical mass is forming.
Evil ZEN Scientist
I hate to be a troll here, but you really have no idea what
you're talking about on points 2 & 3.
Point #1, the "applications barrier to entry", is the ONLY
obstacle to Linux domination, and that has been the case
for at least 5 years. It was the case against OS/2 ten
years ago. It will continue to be the case until IS
departments seriously try to make Linux work, instead of
looking for any excuse not to.
All of the training & accountability problems you mention
were common complaints back when Linux was just starting
to be used in the server market. The training and
accountability issues are always addressed AFTER the
applications are made available. However, that didn't
stop Linux from doing quite well with mail servers, web
servers, etc.
Believe me, when Windows 3.0 was being pirated like
mad, creating a market for those old Excel versions,
there was no training or accountability. People were used
to DOS and keyboards; and what "accountability" was
there for pirated software? Once a "killer app" came
along, it took off.
Linux doesn't, and in my opinion, will never have a
"killer app". However, if you can use Linux and KDE
on a desktop for basic office functions now and save
$400 per computer, that is really the "killer" aspect of
it.
Errr, this whole news item is 'redundant' but that didn't stop anyone posting it...
Take a look at NIMS - http://www.novell.com/products/nims, http://www.myrealbox.com Fast, scalable, cross platform scheduling and messaging software.
Evil ZEN Scientist
I don't agree with this post myself, but it is far from "flamebait". It is exactly the kind of argument that proponents of the Linux desktop will (and should!) face as they make their case for conversion. It needs to be addressed, not swept under the mod rug.
sPh
Re-writing an already-working system is not a good idea
However, when you implement a new system; make sure that
it will work on both Windows and Linux. It takes a long time,
but if you stick with that approach, Linux desktops will be
a possibility.
Writing your system to be platform-independant when there is no current or forecast need is also not a good idea.
pronoblem
- MS has no reason (NONE) to adopt a single, open file format. Forget it. If one is presented, they'll embrace and extend, just like they did with HTML.
- Benefits of OpenOffice != hardware savings + licensing costs. There are switching costs involved, irrespective of whether the UI is monolithic or not, and they're nontrivial. The cost models I've thought about involve a relatively massive up front cost that'll defray itself over several years, and that's not a model that businessPeople will buy into on a large scale.
- MS are a bunch of buttheads, but they adapt well. Win2k isn't THAT unstable, and is perfectly useable as a business desktop (NOT as servers). What, exactly, does linux afford that W2K doesn't, now that the stability differentiation has been reduced considerably?
If your engineers need linux for the HW benefits, that's one thing, but there's a looong way between kludging something together for a specific subsection of an organization, and doing it for an entire company. Besides, as mentioned before, an AOL version of linux would make just about everybody puke. If you're trolling, congratulations.ceci n'est pas un sig.
I find so many Linux and KDE apps to be so much more configurable and useful than Windows programs, personally. But just like the article's author, getting them up and running is the biggest pain in the ass ever in most cases! It shouldn't take me an hour just to get Gnucash installed and running. Configuring it to my liking can take all day for all I care, but just getting it running so I can begin to replace my use of Quicken is an extraordinarily lengthy task. This is just one example of the difficult install process in linux desktop apps.
The lack of interoperability or fancy features in Linux desktop apps is not the problem. Who uses the 'web publishing' wizards in MS Word anyways??? The problem is the ease of install. I don't need MS style wizards to walk me through the install per say, but I would at least like a working product when I'm done installing, not yet another message that a certain library is missing on my system. RPM's work just fine (when they work), but if a library is missing, for God's sake, TELL ME WHERE I CAN DOWNLOAD IT or better yet, go find it and download it for me! Get easy installation of apps on the Linux desktop, and you'll get MS desktop business users migrating to Linux en masse.
Note, however, that gaming on Linux is not even close to complete yet since installation of desktop apps is still such a pain. Henceforth, the home Linux user has two hurdles to get past before using Linux at home on a consistent basis.
Yes, I like linux, and yes, I use it at home, and YES I don't mind doing some work to find the libraries, drivers, and programs I need to get linux apps working like I want them too. But the simple fact of the matter is that most business people don't have that kind of time to waste on just installing a simple program.
2. The vast majority of custom, in-house developed apps will never be ported to Linux. (It's just too expensive to do the massive rewrite needed to port any non-trivial program written in VB or VC++ to Linux.)
3. Apps like (1) and (2) above are "must have" items in the vast majority of mainstream (home and office) desktops.
4. Because of (4), Linux + a GUI interface could be 1000 times better than Windows, but it still would never be more than a niche of a niche on the mainstream desktop. No level of security or usability or cost savings or any other benefit will ever overcome the fact that if it doesn't meet people's needs it's useless. And no amount of wishful thinking will make it otherwise.
(Don't flame me. I'm a writer and programmer in the Linux field who's invested a lot over the last few years in trying to help Linux succeed in the mainstream, and I'm deeply frustrated that it hasn't done better. But I've also talked to many consulting clients in companies of all sizes about conversion issues, and I'm convinced that the above 4 points accurately reflect the situation.)
They wanted to save money and so they did. But let me point out that 60% of Open Source developers remain unemployed. If everyone was using free and open source software, not many people would be able to make a living by producing software.
I noticed. In the last week, KOffice has crashed on me three times, toasting my documents. Konquerer twice. KNotify (IIRC, the crash handler!) has crashed twice!
And two of those seven crashes locked up the entire machine.
In other words, I heartily agree. I hope like hell KDE 3 is more stable.
Penis ( Ok, there, I said it )
Having a system with web-based client software can be a huge payback in terms of deployment, support, and licencing costs. Keeping one ASP/MSSQL server running is not that big of a deal if you can move your desktops over because they only need to talk HTTP.
There's always a need, though, so it's always a good idea. It is never a good idea to limit yourself to only one platform as an option. That doesn't mean make it portable to everything under the sun, but it does mean make sure that your eggs can be switched into one or two other baskets if the current platform starts to look like a bad decision. Especially since computing platforms and options seem to be proliferating more now than at any time in the past - who can predict for sure which platform they'll want to be on in 5, 10, 20 years?
People that don't plan for portability deserve the pain that they get. Unfortunately, they usually aren't able to connect the pain back to their poor decision-making in the first place, so the feedback loop doesn't work too well :)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
How many companies would try linux if it had the appearance of one desktop? For a long time I used Afterstep, then KDE came along. I thought this is the one. We should all get behind it. Then RedHat had to sponsor gnome. That ruined everything. So now we have a solid mature desktop and one semi-solid desktop fighting with each other.
.doc file.
People have always said that competition it good. Well in this case its not. We split resources and lack a unified front. Nothing good has comes out of this, outsiders look in with confusion.
Ever wonder why MS has kept the desktop almost exactly the same since 1995? Ever wonder why they have 90% market share?
When will people learn. I used to buy into that diversity thing. And I still do, but I find in the linux community there is too much "me too syndrome".
Example. How many desktop installer routines are there? Corel had a great GPL installer years ago. Did debian or anyone else adopt it? Nope. Everyone just does their own thing, and does not take advatage of the GPL softwaer that is already out there.
Why do we have Kword,Abiword,and Open office not sharing how to decode Office docs? Instead everyone does there own thing, so instead of going by feature, you end up using the one that best opens your
So next time you are wondering why that 1% of the desktop market does not get bigger. Keep in mind how very very very fragmented it already is.
It tears my heart out that linux does not do better beacause it has soo much potential.
I think a better analogy then the cathedral and the bazaar is, the cathedral and a bunch of sealed rooms. Everyone works on a product in a sealed room. When they leave their room they get to see what others are doing. Instead of working together with someone who has a similar product, they run back to their sealed room, and keep working on a different version hoping theirs will win and not the others. Its FREAKING GPL people share the code!!! and work together!!!
Our company has been hit by the recession relatively heavily -- our main product is a "luxury" item for most businesses -- so when we decided to finally put our salesman on computers and enter the 21st century, I suggested Linux desktops. I was met with some quizzical looks, but once I demoed my desktop and mentioned the key word "free," I was given the go-ahead.
The idea is that there is only a steep learning curve for Linux if you're switching from another OS; if you've never used anything, there's no adjustment. Unlike the article's writer, though, we went with Gnome, for one huge reason: Evolution. Just like Outlook is key for businessmen who run Windows, Evolution makes keeping track of contacts, appointments, etc. a breeze for our salesmen. They do basic word processing with Abiword, look at some spreadsheets with Gnumeric, and browse the web with Galeon.
I think what it comes down to is Linux's main strength is choice. My users do lots of planning, organizing, etc., so I centered their desktops around Evolution. TrustCommerce's people for the most part do very basic email, but a lot more document work, so their desktops are based around OpenOffice.
Two more things: The killer app is gtcd. I cannot convey in words how amazed new users are when they put a cd in and the cd player looks up the tracklisting. (Yes, I realize many Windows cd players do this. Yes, I realize the new version of MP that comes with ME & above do this.) The other thing is that using Debian makes it all worthwhile. I mirror sid (the distribution we use) on the file server, which updates every night, and then when I upgrade workstations it goes over our 100Mb network. I cannot begin to describe how much easier my job is doing ssh workstation; apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade than walking around to desks and doing Windows Update.
If it ain't broke, you need more software.
They've still got the cost of a fat client architecture. If you want a Unix desktop and lower TCO Sun's Sun Ray could do this, if you're interested in the business benefits and are less bothered about the politics of your software licences.
1. Microsoft doesn't have to change format. These open source developers are attempting to write programs that open, edit, and safe Microsoft formats. The shoe is on the other foot. If they change their own formats in a non-trival way, it will hurt people who haven't upgraded to Office Whatever as much as the Linux users. In a way, Open Source is now embracing and extending Microsoft's software capabilities.
2. You're probably right. The up front cost isn't as massive as you think, provided (and I grant that this is a big provision) the migration process is managed competently. In fact, it could be downright cheap. But the associated cost from lost time as people acclimatize themselves to their new environment... that'll hit the productivity hard.
3. Eliminated licensing fees and (potentially) faster administration. I'm not a MSCSE, but I'm under the impression that there are dozens of administrative tasks that must be done point and click. Whether you have to use each workstation or run VNC, that takes time. A competent Unix administrator can configure an office full of units with a few scripts. There are licensing fees for OS, Office, ZIP, Database systems, Photo-editing software, Terminal services software... it adds up fast. The only two software costs that remain comparable are administration and tech support.
I think IF (I will not assume 'when') Linux gains a large portion of the desktop market, AOL will market AOL for Linux. Until then, they'll market for Microsoft... go where the profit lies.
I wonder if the author has a brother named Andrew?
It's almost like magic.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
I don't know enough about Outlook to say how Evolution compares,
Prevalent in the article itself he states how he has a zealotry for Linux based products. Now I have to ask, how a comparison of any kind can be made if you only examine one side of the argument. Many people say "Oh, I hate MS XXXX" without even attempting to USE the application. I for one think MS got where they are by focusing on the important aspects of the Business World. Printing, formatting, and ease of use.
he was too disorganized because KMail doesn't offer a calendar -- I suggested he click on the little picture of a calendar on his taskbar, and he bellowed with joy
and anyone who can't figure out what the calendar icon at the bottom of their screen is in no position to be working period. How did these people make it to where they are today>?> Writing your system to be platform-independant when there is no current or forecast need is also not a good idea.
that's really the whole idea behind the web. most companies just got so sick of microsoft desktop development headaches that they switched the the lions share of desktop apps to web apps.
also there is java (and inferno, but not so many people use that), tk and a few other tools that make cross platform client programming easier. it is worth the investment because platform changes happen more often than you think, even if you stick with ms.
After having read to the bottom of the page and seeing no one else mention this, why is the author lumping Star Office (apparently 5.2) in with open source software? I know the source was opened up at a later date, but that was after removing some proprietary bits. As far as I know, Star Office may be free beer but is NOT open source.
Put identity in the browser.
I presently use an NTmachine at work that was installed and configured before I got here. The machine has a 35Gb hard drive, with a 3Gb partition and a 25Gb parition. They are both Windows partitions. The idiots who installed the software on my machine decided to install Windows on the 3Gb harddrive and all the applications, including the critical, irreplaceable ones (they didn't give us the CDs or installation instructions) on the 25Gb harddrive. For some reason, they installed NT Server instead of NT Workstation on my machine, so I couldn't use ParitionMagic to split the 25Gb partition (which is mostly empty).
.doc or .xls files.
:)
I spoke to my boss about my desire to run Linux, and he kept telling me I'd get another system. Then, he told me he'd simply get another harddrive for my existing system. Despite the fact that another harddrive would be dirt-cheap and easy to order, they kept stalling on getting it for me.
Fortunately, I got a call from one of my ex-coworkers who wanted to bring me to his new company. I mentioned installing Linux on my desktop, and they said no problem. I'm so excited, now I don't to deal with Windoze, an unstable system, or any of these crappy Windows applications. I'll be a web developer, so I don't have to deal with
This is so exciting!
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I used to manage the IT department for a small company with a subsidiary in Canada. I became good friends with my counterpart in Canada, and our bosses wanted our click all electronic imaging/fax/email system deployed in Canada. We were on Windows with some custom software and some third party. They were on SCO with lots of custom software, but with Windows desktops. Why because most of the Office software that they needed to create and exchange business documents was on Windows. You can argue the "need" portion, but this is shown time and time again for the average user that Windows is a choice most managers feel they need.
This was 7-8 years ago. I left, but kept in touch with my friend. Now they are a manufacturing plant and eventually switched to Solaris for some things because of the slide of SCO.
Last week he sent some emails to me looking for some products that might run on Linux. Over the last year he has begun porting his desktops from Windows to Linux using Star Office. It's not easy and not smooth, but it does the job and the $$ saved from software upgrades (no XP for him) are spent in support and training. Of course, these are soft $$ because it's his (and his departments) time, not a direct expenditure (which MS software would be).
He's been looking at iPlanet, but the solution proposed for his needs is CN$100K . I sent him a link for ZOPE, which he checked out with a local VAR. Cost for that implementation: CN$25K. Quite a difference!
He's not sold, but he is seriously looking for an Open Source solution.
Look, we all know that there are lots of good reasons to use Linux on the desktop. Heck, StarOffice is a good office environment and there are others coming along nicely. From my perspective, coming from management and having had a mixed Linux/Windows/Mac/Solaris shop to keep straight, there are other fundamental issues that Linux distro's and the Open Source community might consider addressing.
1) Installation
Well, Windows is pretty easy to install. No lie, I have seen not too swift computer people install it without blowing up the machine. Granted if there's an issue with the installation, the Windows "guru" had to be called in, but normally it was pretty easy.
Linux distros, on the other hand, while they almost *always* install without barfing, can *not* be installed by the average user. At all. Period. Don't even go there. Why? Lot's of options, lot's of ways to ensure that the system doesn't function as expected and lot's of headaches for the sysadmins (who, incidentally, need to *really* understand the quirks of the distro prior to dealing with it).
So, what does Linux need to succeed? Two things spring to my mind.
a) a distribution aimed at the office environment with *no* install time options outside of some basic ones (like networking and screen resolution) - keep all those RPMs around on the CD, but require the sysadmin to put them on - a script that installs "after market" rpms is pretty easy to write.
b) an installation administration tool that allows an admin to develop system types (ie, office system, development system, etc.) and maintain the software to the current level without a lot of hassles. I know that there's stuff like that out there, but you have to dig to find it. It's *important* - it should be one of the most fundamental things an office setting needs to run Linux.
2) Display/Printing
Oh my god. It's getting better, but Linux has the same problem as the Amiga had (sure, I liked the Amiga, too) - poor fonts, poor font rendering to screen and poor printing.
Ok, you *can* make it work, but it's not great. I'm running kde and using aa fonts. I have, through a purchase years ago, a bunch of Adobe fonts that I can use with the server and the desktop environment. They work fairly well, but the X server does a pretty average job of rendering them and most apps (staroffice, kword, abiword) don't use them well, either.
So, for Linux to work well in an office environment, it needs to *look* as polished as windows. IMNSHO, that means good fonts and better printing. I know that CUPS is coming along, but it's not quite there yet.
3) Better Apps
I put this third because that's really where I think it belongs. Our office got away with Office 97 for 4 years on Windows boxes. It didn't have the latest and greatest features and had several nasty bugs, but people were willing to work around them and curse MS from time to time. Some of the Linux apps are getting there, but they're still not ready for prime time. I believe that StarOffice, once the font/print technology is up to snuff, will be just fine.
Conclusion
Many people have posted about the need to have the killer app. Linux needs to become easy for sysadmins to deploy and painless for users to use. And I *know* it can be. I can see it getting there. Don't believe that the app makes the environment, though. That's just wrong. The real work, day to day, is done by the folks to keep the systems running and maintain them in a standard fashion, and the users to demand a certain level of polish and functionality.
Make it easy for the sysadmins! Make it pretty for the users! Window manager hints and nice colors *aren't* all they are looking for! Linux is getting there and the apps are certainly better, but we're not there yet.
There's always a need, though, so it's always a good idea. It is never a good idea to limit yourself to only one platform as an option
Especially if that one platform is a proprietary one.
That doesn't mean make it portable to everything under the sun, but it does mean make sure that your eggs can be switched into one or two other baskets if the current platform starts to look like a bad decision.
In any other area of business this would be just "common sense". Or are there businesses which specifically seek to lock themselves into single supplier deals?
Windows' GUI doesn't look 95% like Windows GUI anymore.
But more than that, I love the fact that people can take a static view of history, even in the face of one of the most rapidly changing aspects (computers and how we interact with them) of human society. Windows 95 was released at the end of 1995. It is now a little over 6 years since everybody and his mom began switching to what you now think of as the ubiquitous "Windows GUI". I'm sure Microsoft would love to say, "Okay, we've got it perfect now, so let's everybody stop changing anything," but it's just not going to work that way. If the "Windows GUI" lasts the rest of 10 years (and God, please let them at least add standard virtual desktops if that happens) then it will be an incredibly long lasting user interface. Does that mean it should be immutable? That, even given past switches of hundreds of millions of people to different but superior interfaces, no further change should occur?
I hope not.
Those phrases are in the paper, but he provides work-arounds for all of them.
No office suite is perfect...but most everyone at this gentleman's office seems to be happy with Star/Open-, and the advantages of linux well outweigh the problems of Microsoft - the sysadmin seems happy not to have to "babysit the Microsoft systems." He says that printing is working great, perhaps superior to a MS solution, and that Konqueror is enough for people's needs, and that they like the integration KDE offers.
Overall, the theme was success, and the mood was positive - this is a good story that Linux advocates can point to, in their companies, and say,"Hey! it can be done - let's test it." It's encouraging - because this kind of thing would have been unreasonable not too long ago - it's another step in a happy trend.
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
By that logic, wouldn't everyone still be using the original BSD Unix, or DOS?
Migration has happened before and it will happen again. But just like other migrations in the past, it isn't an overnight switch.
This is like Quartro or Lotus, a dying breed.
I wish businesses would stop jeopardizing jobs
and focus on operating systems with a future,
like Windows or FreeBSD.
Linux as a whole evolves VERY differently than windows and its apps
Yeah, especially when there's clueless VC funding all the development. Be interesting to see how the evolution of "desktop linux" copes with the current economic conditions, now that the funding craze has died down.
Oh, and I liked the bit at the beginning of the article about how the "paperless office" is finally here. Wish it was. Then I wouldn't lose so much work time when the goddamned copier broke.
--saint
It sounds funny that the article said that they changed databases from Informix to Postgres because of scalability issues and now Postgres is scaling well.This statement makes me laugh.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. I do find it fascinating that people manage to do this successfully, though the one app that to me is notable in its absence is an Exchange/Outlook pair. This is (to where I work) invaluable. Is there a linux version of Exchange that I just dont know about?
dominionrd.blogspot.com - Restaurants on
Yep XP rules, who would have thought? It actually doesn't crash. Shocking but true.
It was covered on The Register or somewhere a while ago, that the South-Korean government has ordered 120,000 (yes, 120,000) copies of linux equipped with the Hancom office suite. For some strange reason /. didn't feel their readers would be interested to know that.
Yes,
Mandrake uses urpmi and it does just what cavemanf16 described. urpmi is a tool mostly like Debian's apt-get . You do :
# urpmi gabber
and it will install the latest Gabber with its required libraries.
All from RPMs. And it has a GUI front-end called rpmdrake / MandrakeUpdate that let's you upgrade your system to latest security patch with the de facto, windows-like standard Click Next to continue kind of thing.
Man! I love Mandrake for this. And it is also a hell of a nice desktop!
It is a mistake to say that Linux is not as good as Windows on the desktop. The desktop was mostly all M$ had been doing. And windows was not always great. Remember just being able to run just one applcation at a time in Dos? And with the apperance of windows, how beautiful was it in those early early years? Remember too, it was just a crummy shell on top of Dos up until Win9x. Windows started to get its current look and feel with W95. Before that it pretty much sucked. Linux has a pretty good base and window manager. Now we are getting down to figuring out the look and feel we want. And that is very promising because there are several options. So give linux the same benefit and opportunity we gave windows before it got as "usable" as it is today. just my 2cents.
I've installed Linux on this box HP Vectra, Pentium 2 450, 192MB of ram and I've got everything working, here's my two problems...
1. Outlook - This is a non-sequitor because of evolution, but since they don't have there connector out yet, its impossilbe for me to use. My company uses exchange for everything, meetings, tasks, etc... If I can't hit "accept" when I get a meeting request, its no good to me, and my boss routinely sends me contacts...
2. Project - This is a big issue for me. If I could get a project replacement, I could be free at last, however, without project I'm screwed. My boss doesn't write me email and ask me about something, he looks at a project file in a common area we both have access to. Then if he doesn't see its been updated he writes me email or sends me a meeting request (see how the two are intertwined...)
Once I get those, I'm free...
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade, just like Debian. And to find some obscure package go to rpmfind.net
With a bonus: few Conectiva users will give you a long sermon on why you should really call it GNU/Linux. Sheesh, those Debian guys would insist on calling my car a GOODYEAR/Chevrolet...
And this is part of the problem, if you perceive there to be a problem - who is this "they" you speak of when referring to Linux?
There is no man behind the curtain. It would have to be a major distribution. Not that it is a bad idea, I like the idea. It would dispel some myths, and promote whatever distro decides to do it.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Here's the link:
http://people.trustcommerce.com/~adam/office.html
"In 2-3 years Linux will be in a SERIOUS position to threaten ALL aspects of MS business, the beauty is there is absolutley nothing MS can do to stop it, or even slow it down, soon will come the time they have to embrace it offering their apps for it, when that happens it will be the death knell of MS operationg systems...... "
;)
I saw the exact same statements 2-3 years ago. It's made improvements, yes, but most certainly is NOT where everyone would thought it would be 2-3years ago.
Also, transitioning from linux -> Mac OS X is easy, too.
Ever see "Fraggle Rock?"
:P~ I'm sure they'll finish it one day, too!
Remember the "Dozers?"
Yup, that's Caltrans.. the fools building the bridges/etc. I think that Caltrans workers really are the Dozers. The people that had the freeway plans have long since passed on, but the Dozers just keeeeep on building and building and building...
At least that clusterfuck that is 880 vs 237 is being worked on
It's called sendmail. Created by the same guy who wrote "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" (ISBN 1-56592-724-9). There are a few differences, though, I suppose you would call them "incompatibilities": sendmail runs reliably, has no security holes, is fast, and runs on any computer instead of the dozen $10000 servers that Microsoft Exchange needs.
There was a time when I had never used Linux.
That makes me wonder. Does Debian have a rollback feature? If an update "breaks" something, you can go back as far as needed.
Well, that's not entirely accurate. By default, downloaded packages are kept in /var/cache/apt/archives; they stay there until you do an "apt-get clean" (which deletes all the previously-downloaded packages) or "apt-get autoclean" (which deletes everything that's not currently mentioned in the packages lists; old versions, for example). If you upgrade and find that, oh, login, for example, is broken, you can just run "dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/login_oldversion_arch.deb" . (Which is why I tend not to do an autoclean until I've tested the new testing or unstable packages for a bit, or do it just before running an apt-get update.)
On the other hand, if you upgrade to testing or unstable, then decide you want to go back to stable, you're pretty much screwed. Packages tend to split between releases (for example, package foo might split into foo (or foo-bin) and libfoo). It becomes very difficult to go back and it would probably be just as easy to do a reinstall.
Bottom line: apt excels at upgrading and sucks horribly at downgrading. But I still love it. ;^)
--
Runnin' around, robbin' banks all whacked on the Scooby Snacks...
Actually, no, Windows XP does not have much acceptance in businesses. This is not because of the technology, but the cost and liscenses.
Here is the fact: for every story of a business switching over to linux, there is another story of a business switching to a commercial version of unix or windows. That is why stories like this are pointless. What really matters is statistics, and percentage.
Then again, it might make some feel better to think that companies are only switching to linux, and never to windows or another os....
I am truly grateful for your bold attempt, and will kiss my frog in your honor.
RPM's work just fine (when they work), but if a library is missing, for God's sake, TELL ME WHERE I CAN DOWNLOAD IT or better yet, go find it and download it for me!
There's a tool call APT which works on top of RPM which will do exactly that - you can download and install it from FreshRPMs.
Of course, functionality spread over 2 seperate command line tool doesn't appeal to end users, so it would be lovely if someone could write an app like the QNX installer for Linux. I've used Red Carpet, Synaptic, and all the other GUI package installers and they really don't compare to the installer, which lets me simply browse repositories, click what I want, and do whatever's necessary to get the app installed.
This is what I got on my e-mail:
2 616
4 1
A user has given a "Overrated" (-1) moderation to your comment.
Re:I hope these stories end soon...
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=26885&cid=290
Attached to:
Linux & the Business Desktop
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/01/25/13452
Your comment is currently scored 1.
-1 for "Overrated"? Insane!!!
Don't you guys know about Monty Python films?
This is from "The Holy Grial" ! For heavens' sake!
There's a scene where a bunch of peasants want to burn a women. They say that she is a witch. And some Knight asks "How fdo you know that she is a withch?" And a peasant answers "She turned me into a newt!".
Hence the comment.
Overrated? What is overrated?
I'm pissed at one of the alledged "moderators". What overrating? From who did I recived any "overrating"?
Lack of knowledge is not an excuse.