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Microsoft Case Enters Crucial Penalty Phase
An Anonymous Coward points out an article from Joseph Menn's in the Los Angeles Times which begins: "Microsoft -- Nine states waging a landmark antitrust battle against Microsoft Corp. are preparing to venture into territory that has been barely visible during the past years of legal slogging:
the future." This delves slightly into ways in which the states in legal conflict with Microsoft would like to see Microsoft constrained legally going forward.
I think we should take the best suggestions from rotten.com pictures and the linux kernel mailing lists and make a slashdot poll about it.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
If I remember correctly more than just the nine states are gonna go after Micro$oft. A lot of others didn't like the decision that it was over so they were pressing to. How will this effect it or am I just totally off my rocker and need a good slap from Cowboy Neal?
Honestly, it's about high time that we're getting around to the penalty. It has always bothered me how much money the government needs to spend to enforce simple laws like the Sherman Antitrust act. *sigh* Perhaps we would have just been better off if the government had just subsidized the ridiculous price of Windows and Office.
And it's not like this is the end either. MS will appeal every last thing they can think of.
"Microsoft -- Nine states waging a landmark antitrust battle against Microsoft Corp. are preparing to venture into territory that has been barely visible during the past years of legal slogging: the future."
So this is kind of like Terminator, except the other way round ?
They split up Microsoft- but it reformed!
Bill Gates: "I'll be back"
graspee
If nothing else, license restrictions and dramatically increased licensing costs will make many corporations think twice about continuing to use Microsoft products. Microsoft's user base is eroding at both ends. Apple on the consumer market...free *nix on the high end.
Slashdot, the site where everything's made up and the points don't matter
That's LOS ANGELES. Dunno where "Las Angeles" is... somewhere in Nevada perhaps.
I LOVE THIS COMPANY! YEAH!
Here
I can visualize the cross-examination in my head:
Sullivan: DID YOU, OR DID YOU NOT BULLY NETSCAPE INTO BROWSER SUBMISSION?
Gates: I don't recall.
Sullivan: Unless you wish to purchase a license agreement, you can't use that copyrighted phrase. You can have a lifetime, single user license for 3 million. Mr. North is very pleased with his.
If the misspelling of "Los" upsets you so much that you have to reconsider visiting Slashdot, you might reconsider some other things too, such as your life.
Perhaps we should, for the duration of the penalty phase, prevent MS from developing any more software, and since technology moves so fast, this would put them at a considerable disadvantage, and also force a settlements soon
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I can't grok this. Anyone?
This delves slightly into
Either it delves into it or not. Delve - to make a careful or detailed search of something. So this makes a careful search, slightly??
in which the states in legal conflict with Microsoft
Are any states not in legal conflict with MS?
constrained legally going forward. As opposed to constrained physically?
Gates is on Microsoft's witness list, as is Ballmer. The states expect to see Gates alone, and his testimony could be pivotal.
Gates' evasive, videotaped deposition in the last trial was a disaster. If he testifies this time, he will face Sullivan's withering interrogation.
"Brendan Sullivan is an absolute marvel. The issue is whether he will be able to crack Gates and show some of the less-believable aspects," Lande said.
Anyone know if this will be available to the public? What I wouldn't give to see Gates or Ballmer crack while on the stand.
This case will be a very important case for the IT industry. If Microsoft gets away with a slap on the wrist, they will continue their monopoly, Linux, BSD and other OSes that refuse to implement DRM in the kernel will be outlawed (in the US, at least) and other double-plus-ungood things. If, however, Microsoft are severely penalised, the IT industry is very likely to decline, as there is at the moment a large dependency on Microsoft in the IT industry. And there is no point denying it.
I am not trying to spread FUD, and I would like to see 1 Microsoft Way at the center of a small nuclear explosion, but we must acknowledge the severe repercussions this may have on the IT industry.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
"If you live in any of the following nine states [...] the deadline for the next round of generous grants from the Melinda and Bill Gates foundation is rapidly approaching. Please indicate the name of your worthy charity, political connections, media connections, relations to any probusiness antitrust lawyers, or incriminating photos of anti-MS antitrust lawyers ...
... remember, If you file before noon Monday and have a good photo op (like crippled children) you can pose with a founding member of America's largest software producer."
I didn't know that MS headquarters had a flux capacator, much less the ability to travel the necessary 88 mph. Go them.
There is nothing wrong with being gay. It's getting caught where the trouble lies.
According to Google News there are 25 more states fighting against Microsoft.
--Metrollica
Do that. But please, God, don't destroy them by fining, like, a jillion dollars.
You'll just make the products crappier. And a lot of great people will lose their jobs.
-----
Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton
Why? Isn't that really mini-minimum?
Amiga inc, has hired several former Microsoft Employees and now they are in a partnership with MS to provide content for MS products like CE.
Many in the classic Amiga community do not like this and also don't like Amiga taking claim of ownwership of the community, in claims that the community is 110% supportive of what they are doing.
A couple of Amiga news boards have dropped all news directly tied to Amiga inc. in a boycott.
If you really want to do something about MS then let people know that you do not support MS and that there are alternatives.
Simply Put: Boycott MS in any and all ways you can.
I hate to see the government get into software design. The spliting of Microsoft into 2 parts (OS and everything else) seemed to be a fairer plan to all and easier to maintain than what we will probably end up with. By the time the government remedies take effect it will be too late to address the original problem anyway. Private lawsuits will have to take up that slack.
The article states that the anti-trust case is currently in its "punishment" phase. And I know I'm arguing semantics here, but we shouldn't be seeking retribution for past behavior, rather, the focus of the states should be on how to restore competition in tomorrow's PC software market.
Check out my podcast: DreamStation.cc Video Game Show
What good is punishing Microsoft it they keep even some of their ill-gotton gains? If I steal $25,000.00 and get a $10,000.00 fine but get to keep my stolen booty is that a deterant?
Microsoft is now using the gains it made illegally to expand into internet services and other areas. There will be new violations. There will be new victims. There will be new lawsuits.
As long as the Justice Department is getting it's giant Federal dick lubed by Microsoft the cycle will continue.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Microsoft Chief Executive Steve Ballmer has said it's unrealistic to think that Microsoft could come up with multiple Windows versions that work equally well.
Who says they have to work equally well? Especially considering the wide variety of needs that people have. What works well for one person, doesn't necessarily work well for another. This would just give people a much needed choice in what is installed on their system. If everyone used a stripped down version of their OS that does only the things they absolutely need (and can be added to at a later time if so desired) then the internet as a whole would be much healthier.
Remember...investing in MicroSoft is risking having your own money used against you in the marketplace. Think about this when/if results actually come down from the penalty phase. Don't spend money that will eventually go to MS...don't.
"Brendan Sullivan is an absolute marvel. The issue is whether he will be able to crack Gates and show some of the less-believable aspects," Lande said
Wasn't one of the first American bare fists fighting champions named Sullivan? Any way this promises to be a contest of world calibre. Hopefully this will be televized. I'd pay to witness this while I'd never pay to see Tyson/Lewis.
heuristic algorithm seeks stochastic relationship
How many times was that phase initiated? And canceled? And Initiated? And canceled? ...
I'm sorry but I'm reconsidering sanity of States.
Punish mutherfuckers or don't, but do something. At least go eat Hamburger at McDonalds.
thats sick
I so wish they would air the Gates/Ballmer interrogation live.
That, and some popcorn would really make my day...
A wee bit more exciting than ordianry "court TV" wouldn't you say. Of course it won't happen, but it is a beautiful thought.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
I'm sure you don't really believe that. If so, may I ask what country you are in (and hence which rights you enjoy)?
You think IBM is minor? You have to be kidding... IBM makes MS look small time.
People have a strange impression as to how big MS actually is. Yes they're big but they've no harware to speak of, and they dont punt to the really high end solution well were the likes of IBM and Sun do.
IBM produces a huge amount of patents annualy, across a wide range of product... MS aint even in the same ballpark.
So if they keep up the attacks on Microsoft, then the evil empire can just do what the Government and the states want: Close up shop, release all businesses from their contracts when they expire, and everybody can go get their own OS, one that is truly stable, user friendly, everyone already has experience with, bundled with the utilities they need, inexpensive, and guaranteed to be more compatible with all of the other computers that everyone has to deal with on a daily basis.
And then everyone would be happy, right?
I remember the wonderful days of the past when everyone had a different OS and everything worked on everyone else's computer.
Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.
Sounds like they're trying to convince us that if they make Windows without IE, that somehow the OS will be so different that we may have to buy different versions of the same software in order for it to work on the IEWindows, and the NonIEWindows. Seriously, what does that say about Windows as an OS?
Pretty sad. Hope Microsoft gets whipped. Lord knows they need it!
I think people need to think about microsoft's army of evil monkeys before they start trying to push them around.
Hacker Media
As someone said in the OS/2 story, Microsoft gained its dominance through restrictive OEM licensing. Any penalty must forbid them from using this anticompetitive practice to be worthwhile.
is the clause that will prohibit MS to make any "Windows only PC" deals with manufacturers. Look, it's pretty simple:
1. MS was found to have a monopoly in the desktop operating system market;
2. MS was found to illegally use that monopoly to stifle competition.
It has to be a no-brainer to make all agreements that MS has with PC manufacturers void and prohibit them from making any such deals in the future until further review of the court.
I dont know why ppl r still intrested in this.
YES, the states may very well be going to do something but it will NEVER happen.
Just like the Justice dept. and all the linux freaks were jumpin in the streets the evil world of micrsoft will crumble to the true light of linux. (cough) well they r split up now arnt they. hehe.
I have been using linux SUSE 7.1 or so for some time now and will be upgrading to 8 in a month i use win4lin to run windows app under linux. therefore i am familiar with the desktop users aspect of linux ONLY.
Let me tell ya there is nothing concerned with the desaktop user that winux oh linux does better that say win2000. (which i also use and is about a bit more stable than SUSE 7.1)
Just quit it eh. MIUCROSOFT IS BETTER for the desktop.
end of story.
:) Microsoft Hater. aswell.
An Anonymous Coward points out an article from Joseph Menn's in the Las Angeles Times which begins...
:)
Dude, were you thinking of Las Vegas? I'll be the first to vote that aspell support be included in Slash immediately to at least remedy some of our editors' chronic error-making!
Am I a hipster-doofus?
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Wait a sec, here. This article almost implies the settlement has already happened. Did Kollar-Kottely accept the PFJ and I missed it?
Or does the term "penalty phase" mean something I'm not aware of.
The paranoid part of me worries about articles like this. Implying the game is already over encourages resignation....
Tweet, tweet.
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Guilty - Microsoft applications get segmented, they can't/won't provide new services, they fold, the computer industry implodes, economy collapses.
Innocent - Microsoft keeps up its anti-competitive practices, other corporations shrivel up, software becomes bloated on its own faulty coding without competition, and Microsoft controls everything.
If you believe everything, no one's a winner. Sure, it's a hyperbole. Try explaining this trial to someone who think no Windows means no computers. (Sadly, I've seen my fair share of those people.)
This
A modular windows with no coercion by MS as to what can or can't be installed would give OEMs the opportunity to compete based on who offered the best preinstalled distribution. Hm, that sounds familiar somehow...
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There may be something positive in that. Maybe they'll succed to go trough this time.
It really doesn't matter what outcome there will be. Long ago, when trial started, most of the people wouldn't even think there could be such thing as Microsoft monopoly.
And now, well, at least people are informed (or some of them at least). Most of them probably don't realize how global this thing is. It is global, I'm not US citizen, but I feel a lot of pressure. They have grown too large and too agresive.
I guess I'm taking the side of oposition, was pretty neutral, but current events have showed that Micorsoft can't play fair game. Somehow I even understand them, competition is getting stronger every day. But to be realistic, this competition isn't competition out of nothing. Microsoft has done great deal to gain former partners as competitors. And with new version of Windows they will be gaining even more of them (at least most of database makers, because of integrating their SQL client into their system). They are just to pushy to compete with all the market. Once they conquered Software (for which now they're loosing the battle, slowly but surely) they'll try to conquer Hardware (Xbox and probably their PCs)
It looks like next year when they'll complete all of computer market, they'll probably try to compete with car companys, and Henry Ford will be suing them for illegal competition.
My final judgement is firmly oposition. It has come to that moment, when I decided to move my bussines on Linux. I must admit, two or three things are a bit lacking (in bussines view of special software, but nothing what will wouldn't overcome) but the will for privacy is just too strong.
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
Finally a linux user who has a brain and not just all flame no bite. thankyou for your post. --Microsoft Hater--
... is the corporate death penalty.
Take a big fine and then force MS to give every dime of it's retained earnings +10% to its stock holders. Watch how fast they shrivel! They are overextended like some many other large companies. They will then do themselves in by increasing restrictions, becoming more parinoid (like IBM did in the 80's) until noone cares. They will come back, the top brass will be forced out and they will be a good contributor again!
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Microsoft Chief Executive Steve Ballmer has said it's unrealistic to think that Microsoft could come up with multiple Windows versions that work equally well.
... however I'm still not going to stand up, never will I give it up for him and I don't love this company.
For once I agree with Ballmer
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
Microsoft is not a monopoly. Their are plenty of alternative operating systems: Macintosh, OS 2, Linux, BSD, and Unix.
http://www.b.150m.com/
I could have sworn the topic was
Microsoft case enters CRUEL Penalty Phase
But we wouldnt be so lucky now, would we??
c - a blessed +5 grain of salt
Is it just me, or did anyone else look at the huge list of pay-for-MS-exam-certification and think "Scientology"?
Justice is about enforcing the laws such that all who see the laws enforced will conclude it is better to obey the laws than to break them. Justice isn't a zero sum game to fix a problem. If they only fix the problem with Microsoft, if they can, other business leaders will figure that the payoff for braking the anti-trust laws is worth the risk. Retribution, negative incentive, you bet.
I bet your opinion of the justice system would change... REAL QUICK.
"And like that
Gates: "Well..." [Bill, staring at the floor, kicks a tile with the tip of his shoe. He glances at Balmer.]
Judge: "Billll???" [Peering down to catch youthful William's eye.] "Come one now, you can do it. Steven's already promised."
Gates: "OK, I -- I promise."
Judge: "See, that wasn't so bad. Was it?" [Most in the court room look around, shaken by the emotion, almost to the point of crying. Some indeed do wipe back tears as they nod in approval.]
Doj: "Oh, darn it! Everybody, group hug!" [And a cheer goes up as Justice has once agin been served. Golly, it sure as heck has.]
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
It's about time this trial finally got to the penalty stage. Let's see all of those consumers bend over and get what's coming to them! The court has slowed down Microsoft's conquest long enough, and the company is very eager to "settle" the score on this one.
Don't give me that look. You know everyone else is thinking it.
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
If this case were moved to Texas could Bill get the chair?
They should be forced to come up with their own Linux distribution.
Honestly, I think the only reason there isn't a Microsoft Linux is PR. If they really want a monopoly, they wouldn't try and make everyone use their OS - they'd just take over and assimilate every other OS. Want unix? Use MSnix! Want Linux? Use MS Linux! Want MacOS? MS OS X!
Just make it the best, make it the cheapest, and then sell them MS "application solutions" or whatever they want to call it at the normal price.
Would I use MS Linux? Well, if it was as stable as my box now (running Mandrake 8.1), and it had interoperability with all of the Windows file formats, etc, I would. If it was superbloat? No. But it's hard to be superbloat and be stable too. But if it was just Mandrake with the MS logo, and a default install that provided easy access to all those proprietary file formats, it would be hard not to.
Jake
Dating: while( 1 ){ call_girl(); get_rejected(); drink_40(); } return 0;
I think thats really the only way to prove they are evil or not. If they don't survive the fire we can safely assume they were innocent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_c
That's a crucial point. Some remedies may be applied while appeals are pending. This should have happened in the first round, but the Justice Department didn't ask for it.
The concept is that if some conduct appears illegal, it can be prohibited during appeals. If Microsoft wins on appeal, they can start doing it again.
Judging from the number of mindless Quislings Micro$lop has defending their interests on WWW message boards, including this one, I think you have a point about L. Ron Gates. Maybe this new court battle will prevent the M-$ version of the "final solution" concerning the "cancer" of OpenSource from taking place. In case it doesn't, get ready to hit the road with your code.
Rien n'est plus beau que le creux du 0.
1. Fills press space
2. Something to talk to your friends to give them the impression your inteligent.
3. Some form of satistfaction for linux Cult members.
4. Might spur massive layoffs at MSFT if they have to close divisions.
5. Will mess around with the only stable OS for the x86 platforms in existance that anybody could use.
6. Will get in the way of the millions of software developers would code primarily for MS platforms [e.g. win32].
7. Probably won't change much in the end anyways.
8. Is costing the US tax payers millions of dollars.
9. Is probably giving B.Gates something to do.
10. Is boring and not really "techy" news so get over it and move along.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Penalty Phase, bah! When do we get to the critical "Parody Phase"? You know, when we get to make fun of Microsoft? Oh, wait...that's the phase we're in now.
Read my sig if you like, but I'll never see yours, thanks to Discussions, Viewing, Disable sigs...
In the U.S. we have the constitution and a justice system. Everybody gets the chance to defend themselves.
There's a lot of impatient people, to be sure, but this case has already gone on almost four years.
Due process is important, but in the technology industry, haste is equally as important. Old rules, like filing for 60 and 90 day extensions, filing for changes of venue (which can delay another 30 to 90 days), etc., should be expedited.
The problem is that no matter what the penalty is, if MS can drag this out for another four years they have essentially escaped punishment - the damage is and will continue to be already done.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
The normal antitrust action is to set an artibitary limit on sales to some figure between 30% and 60% of the current market in perpetuity. In this case the current market might be defined as new PCs sold in a particular country or worldwide. Constitutionally this would seem to be the only legal punishment.
All this other mucking about in how a manufacturer builds its product or does vendor bundling seems like unusual punishment or even illegal meddling in the business's liberty. The only time such measures are normally used is when a question of public safety is involved. Frankly I don't see that excuse here.
... and Microsoft securely imposes itself into every crevice in our lives, controlling and taxing us into poverty and despotism...
."
/msg our enemies that you can take our lives, but you can never take our FREEDOM!!!!?"
"Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live. At least a while, and dying in your beds many years from now. .
"Would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that For one chance JUST ONE CHANCE to come back here and
. . . In the year of are Lord 2014, patriots of GNU, starving and outnumbered, charged the fields of Redmond. They fought like warrior poets. They fought like warrior coders, and they won there freedom. Forever!!
For that useless bullet list straight out of the MS PR handbook, Mr. MS/.Cheerleader #1286. How does it really feel to be an apologist for a company tried and convicted of anti-trust violations? Are you an apologist for Enron too? Verizon? Exxon? DoJ? >|||.|.||| :)
prisoner# msce18xxxxx. Currently planning my escape.
They split up Microsoft- but it reformed!
No, it's right, just like the T1000. On the topic of splitting up monopolies and them reforming, this is quite like what the baby-bells are doing right now.
More stuff:
MICROSOFT WARNS
The states are proposing that Microsoft sell a ``modular'' version of Windows that would allow computer makers to strip out add-on features like the Internet Explorer browser or Windows media player.
The states also would force Microsoft to disclose more about its software and license its browser to other companies royalty-free.
Microsoft warned that the sanctions sought by the dissenting states would cause havoc in the computer industry and force the company to withdraw its Windows operating system from the market.
``It will have a devastating impact on Microsoft. It will have a devastating impact on the PC ecosystem and particularly consumers,'' Webb said.
Well... That's pretty creepy, like Microsoft saying "We've got a deathgrip on the organism because of our monopoly, any attempt to separate the two will cause death for both!"
I think appropriate film here is Invasion of the Body Snatchers. So do you go along with them and let them steal your world, or do you have the courage to fight them and take a few necessary lumps in the process?
I'm certain John Ashcroft, if given the chance, would have Dick Cheney grab all the court records and squirrel them away under Executive Privilege and spare Microsoft, because it's good for America.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
How can MS be a Monopoly if they don't own Boardwalk and Park Place?
IBM doesn't charge outrageous prices for their products, their stuff doesn't CRASH three times a day, and they aren't trying to use their influence to force themselves into new fields. Well, they might be doing the last thing, but if they are, they're doing it much more quietly and humbly than Microsoft, which says SOMETHING about their upper corporate intelligence, right?
[insert witty comment here]