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Silicon Valley Rebirth?
broohaha writes "Using the analogy of fire clearing dead wood and making room for new life in a forest, there's a Newseek article out on the goings on in Silicon Valley these "post-bubble" days. Subjects briefly covered are Intel, Google, and Wozniak's new venture, Wheels of Zeus." It'd be difficult to be literally rebirthed from the thousands of tons of concrete that now seemingly cover the Valley, but hey, as a metaphor, it works.
Maybe its time for silicon ALLEY to stand up now against the overpriced, non-productive geeks whose job is reading slashdot all day -between the coffe breaks, taht is. Guess that is why software is so expensive nowadays.
Yes Silicon Valley is in a low.
No that doesn't mean it will rise again.
SV has relied on waves on new technology being ultra-successful. Ten years ago they were in crisis like today, but lucky for them, the Internet happened. (And a similar 5-10 yr cycle with chips, PCs etc). Will there be another technology rebirth to build companies on anytime soon? That's the real indicator of a rebirth.
For instance, there's a bill in Congress, HR 3222, which links the number of new H1-B visas granted to the unemployment rate. What professional organizations are pushing to get this bill a hearing? It's pathetic that IT worker's are less organized than doctor's, lawyers or even steel workers (who just got a nice present from Bush in terms of tarriffs). Until engineers start educating themselves, and then their fellow engineers, and joining or forming organizations like Washtech, CESO, AEA and the Programmer's Guild, this post-boom slump will last a long, long time. Same old 60 hour weeks and 24/7 oncall, but for less and less pay.
I am not trolling but I didn't learn anything, read anything that made me think further, or enjoy this particular article. What am I missing here? Three minutes of my life apparently.
There was a tech boom.
The boom turned into a bubble.
The bubble burst.
Life is going on.
If brevity truly is the soul of wit, I'm the reincarnation of Oscar Wilde.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
The internet has a major infrastructure component to it that continues to grow. the whole thing probably will continue nicely until moore's law fails.
At that point it will depend a bit on how much that planet has been wired, and how close we are to the "singularity" or machines being "smarter" than humans.
murphy's law, working in reverse, says that this will happen at or before the point that machines achieve human level intelligence, making it impractical to have armies of super intelligent robots develop before humans figure out what to do about it. (hahaha)
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
As far as I can tell, at least this WOZ shit is part of the new tech bubble: wireless. Wireless is great and all, but the adoption rate of wireless usage, at least in the US, is incredibly low. People use cellphones, but only the super-geeks actively go beyond that to use a PDA, WAP, etc. There's a trememndous amount of hype around wireless* right now, and it seems like the gap between tech businesses spending on wireless* and actual consumer usage is even greater than the gap between dot-com spending and consumer usage of the Net.
...The economy rises, and falls. The tech sector also went through another boom, during the 80's (during the cold war era) ...but then there was a massive batch of layoffs due to defense cut backs ... then along comes the proliferation of the internet, and another boom... then a big burst in the bubble from bad investors... now another rise... ad nauseum....
Thats why I laugh when people think the End Is Near (tm). And, I also laugh when they think that these days are 'hard times'. No, hard times was when during the 80's my father would go on strike against Ma Bell for 6 months to a year at a time, and try to support 3 kids at the same time... This current market slowdown is an inconvenience... not the big catastrophe everybody seems to think it is
I lost my concept of community when my community lost all concept of me.
why would any company try and cripple it's self with the plysical location of being in Silicon Valley? you have to pay 10 times what your competitors do in the midwest and the south do for the building, labor,equipment,supplies,everything.
The insanity of overpaying for everything that caused the crash of a few years ago does not need to be repeated....
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Haris Miller made his reputation expanding
the number of guest worker migrant farm workers.
The idea was to bust Cesar Chavez's farm workers
union. He succeeded. Impressed with his work,
IBM, Microsoft and Hewlett Packard created the
ITAA and put Miller in charge. Miller suceeded
in expanding the "guest worker" legislation to import millions of more "non-immigrant" workers.
Again, Miller succeeded: engineering wages are
down, programmers will code for food now.
The one little drawback to creating a indentured
servant class is that they are not on a citizenship track and can't vote. American workers must write their representatives to
tell them to cut out this stupid program.
Americans support a limited, non-employer
controlled, sensible immigration policy.
Small numbers of truly gifted people like
Linux Torvolds *should* be allowed to become
American citizens. We do not support programs
that target American engineers for special
competition.
Write you Senators and Representative to tell
them to support American technology workers and
to roll-back and reform the H1-B quotas.
A smaller citzenship program : YES !
A massive indentured servitude program : NO!
If you were like many of the local workers who were renting and saving up, you simply cannot stay after your job evaporated. I'm not sure if the people are leaving to Seattle, Austin, India or whatever, but don't hold your breath waiting for Silicon Valley to rebloom.
In the long run, don't expect the job providers to stay, either. Other states are giving much better tax incentives to tech firms, who realize that Bay Area workers are much more expensive (and only marginally better), not because they're greedy, but because they have to pay the outregeous living costs.
Elgon
Silicon Valley was the place to be and could well be again. Being around all those other hardcore developers in the late 80's and early 90's, was so exciting and brilliant for my professional and personal development.
We also had some great parties out there - anyone go to those - bet you've all got some great stories.
From the article:
"'After hiding in the bushes, they use those little tin "cricket-clicker" doodads to find each other and regroup.'
"Click-click.
"Click."
I'm reminded sharply of an episode of "Dilbert", where, after Dilbert shows off to Dogbert his latest useless technological toy, Dogbert says to him, "The scary thing is that progress depends on people like you."
hyacinthus.
Do you ever wonder why companies bring in people like myself (from India in my case)? It is because they can't afford what American tech employees expect for income and benefits, because Amercian workers complain if they have to work more than 40 hours, and because American workers are typically not as dedicated or as well educated as their off-shore counterparts (especially in ANY aspect of engineering).
I come to American to work, earn money, and send my savings home to support my family. This is a great country, but when people that call themselves US citizens feel infringed, they immediately attack foriegners. Maybe this is why so many countries around the world utterly HATE america?
I think the word you're looking for is reborn, not "rebirthed".
-- If no truths are spoken then no lies can hide --
I come to American to work, earn money, and send my savings home to support my family.
That is the problem. We would have no problem with you working here if you were planning on becoming a productive citizen of the US. However, there is a problem when you are holding an American job that an unemployed or underemployed American could do and you have no plans to become an American.
How would you feel if India decided to let foreigners come take the jobs that your family members were doing? That is what we are against.
1) Yes they can afford to pay engineers.
These are the richest companies in the world.
Sorry, your point is invalid.
2) Americans complain if they work over 40
hours a week. Broad strokes with your paint
brush. I never complained. Perhaps you are
~racist~ ?
3) H1-B is a stupid program. Why target
American engineers for special immigration programs?
We have families to feed, too. Don't hide
behine ~your~ family.
4) Better educated? Not necessarily true.
Besides, most engineering is learned on the job.
There is no evidence that foreigners are
better than Americans. In fact, Americans
are quite ready to learn new things and we're
very hard workers.
5) The goverment probably paid your tutition.
I paid my way through big state University.
Who's got the advantage?
Rebirth? Silicon Alley is covered in rebirth? Oh crap, I'm sorry, I'm thinking of Afterbirth. eek.
[Got Hosting?]
You seem trollish, but I'll take the bait.
"Do you ever wonder why companies bring in people like myself (from India in my case)? It is because they can't afford what American tech employees expect for income and benefits..."
Wrong. They can afford it, they simply would rather pay less. From a business standpoint, it makes sense, but it's still a shitty thing to do while the country is in a recession. Allow me to introduce you to a bit of Western philosophy: Charity starts in the home.
"...because Amercian workers complain if they have to work more than 40 hours, and because American workers are typically not as dedicated or as well educated as their off-shore counterparts (especially in ANY aspect of engineering).
This is a case-by-case scenario. For years I've worked the quirky hours of a network engineer and not once have I ever complained. But yes, I've met the type of people you're referring to. I'll even further agree that foreign IT workers, as a whole, do work harder than their American counterparts.
"I come to American to work, earn money, and send my savings home to support my family."
That's very nice. But because you're here, you are preventing an American from doing the same thing.
"This is a great country, but when people that call themselves US citizens feel infringed, they immediately attack foriegners."
This case is cut and dry. H1B workers take American jobs. Period. If all the H1B workers left, there would be more jobs for Americans. And since it is our country, I'm sure you'll understand that we think Americans should have first access to those jobs.
"Maybe this is why so many countries around the world utterly HATE america?"
Yeah. That's probably it. Because we blame foreigners for everything...
I'll tell you like I told a flock of Europeans I met while traveling: Americans do not care about foreigners. When I say we don't care, I don't mean we hate them. I mean we really don't care. They never enter our minds. I spend more time choosing what movie I'm going to see than I do about the petty causes of some country I've never been to.
And that's the way it should be.
Maybe if these countries spent more time thinking about themselves and unfucking their own lives/governments/economy/etc., they wouldn't even need to come here to work.
Make sense? Of course not. It's much easier to blame America than it is to fix a nation.
In summary, I hope you lose your job to a needy American. It's our country. Deal with it. Once we get stable again, you're welcome to come back.
Knunov
Why do users with IDs under 100,000 or over 700,000 usually have the most worthwhile comments?
This case is cut and dry. H1B workers take American jobs. Period. If all the H1B workers left, there would be more jobs for Americans. And since it is our country, I'm sure you'll understand that we think Americans should have first access to those jobs.
Actually, I'm not sure this is accurate. You are assuming that the American education system provides enough workers of sufficient quality to fill the entire demand for highly skilled workers. That simply isn't true (in Europe, either).
Long term, if you care about American jobs, you are far better importing skilled workers from around the world, making them Americans who spend money in the American economy, pay tax to the American govt. etc, than leaving them in foreign countries where the cost of living is so much lower that they can undercut US companies wholesale, and suck value out of the US economy.
I'll tell you like I told a flock of Europeans I met while traveling: Americans do not care about foreigners. When I say we don't care, I don't mean we hate them. I mean we really don't care. They never enter our minds. I spend more time choosing what movie I'm going to see than I do about the petty causes of some country I've never been to.
Well, good for you. Software is a global business these days. You can't hide you head in the sand and hope that "foreigners" will go away - because if you do, Silicon Valley will end up like Detroit.
"Actually, I'm not sure this is accurate. You are assuming that the American education system provides enough workers of sufficient quality to fill the entire demand for highly skilled workers. That simply isn't true (in Europe, either)."
It wasn't true a year ago, but it is now. Go read the message boards at Hot Jobs. There are very skilled Americans, with years of experience, who are on the verge of running out of employment benefits. I'm not saying foreigners aren't welcome, but we need to take care of our own.
"Well, good for you. Software is a global business these days. You can't hide you head in the sand and hope that "foreigners" will go away - because if you do, Silicon Valley will end up like Detroit."
You mean 80% Black? What's wrong with that? You must be a racist.
Knunov
Why do users with IDs under 100,000 or over 700,000 usually have the most worthwhile comments?
The american dream used to be "Work hard and you'll succeed". Now it's "The big gravy boat". And the last thing you want on a gravy boat is more people.
In summary, I hope you lose your job to a needy American. It's our country. Deal with it. Once we get stable again, you're welcome to come back.
Nice sentiment but I don't see it playing out that way. Your setting yourself up to be the steelworker of the 21st century...
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
You mean 80% Black? What's wrong with that? You must be a racist.
No, I mean that like the once-proud American auto industry, high tech will lose out to cheaper imports of equivalent or higher quality. Japanese auto manufacturers ate the lunch of Americans - be careful that Indian and Russian programmers don't do the same.
The reason there are American auto workers still is that the Japanese chose to build manufaturing facilities in the US. So what I'm saying is, get the H1Bs in and make them into Americans, don't drive them overseas to compete on their terms.
There are also plenty of other areas that have the combination of nice weather, great universities, and educated populations.
But Silicon Valley is different in that the venture capital community there is not nearly as risk-averse as it is in many other places. While this leads to catastrophic failures (like the dot-bombs), it also leads to successes like Intel and Apple.
Another key factor is that in the Valley, having been involved in a start-up failure is not seen as a black mark - it's seen as proof that you've been tested, and that you've probably learned some lessons.
In my opinion, this willingness to experiment, learn from mistakes, and move on, is a hallmark of Silicon Valley business. I'm no fortune-teller, so I don't know if it will be enough to pull the Valley out of its current probems. But if the Valley recovers, I wouldn't be at all surprised.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Do you like it or not there is only two alternatives:
(1)All work goes to India or (2)We bring the best Indians here and will maintain our edge.
What you are advocating is (1).
The only problem with the H1-B visa program is that it unreasonably ties the visa holder to their employer in a manner that puts downward pressure on salaries. If all H1-B visa holders where allowed to easily change jobs they would not be at a competetive disadvantage regarding salaries and thus would not put a downward pressure on salaries in the industry. Immigration and immigrants are not the problem, bad public policy is.
Not to mention the obvious fact that the vast majority of US citizens are themselves descendents of immigrants who sound foolish and selfish when they rail against imigration.
Yes its fun to dig on this place - it has hubris, ego, and arrogance. But it also has the best array of tech talent in the smallest area of any place on earth. It seriously moving towards biotech and other emerging technologies. It will likely continue to be a center for venture capital. It continues to be an academic powerhouse.
So gets your digs in now while its still at a low. Ten years from now real estate there will be even more absurdly expensive, and there will be even more innovation coming out of this continuingly diverse ecology of ideas.
This case is cut and dry. H1B workers take American jobs. Period. If all the H1B workers left, there would be more jobs for Americans. And since it is our country, I'm sure you'll understand that we think Americans should have first access to those jobs.
Wrong. Nafta and other globalization forces desolve the artificial borders of state into one global economic system ruled by the rich (United States) and enforced by the overwhelming military superiority of the US. Read some journals about the militarization of space, and you'll see that the global economic planners want to extend this hegemony well into the next century. (The _Alien_ world is not that far from a reality.)
In this context, it matters not if you're an American, an Indian, an African, a Chinese--all that matters is that you take what scraps are available. Pampered Americans--those who cheer scabs over unionization--are reaping the whirlwind they've sown.
YOU get over it.
I'll tell you like I told a flock of Europeans I met while traveling: Americans do not care about foreigners. When I say we don't care, I don't mean we hate them. I mean we really don't care. They never enter our minds. I spend more time choosing what movie I'm going to see than I do about the petty causes of some country I've never been to.
And that's the way it should be.
Total self-absorbed, myopic ignorance proudly displayed--and fully indicative of the points the Indian AC was making.
"These countries" as you call them, particularly India, were the cradles of civilization when Whitee was a barbarian hoard fucking over his neighbor (and it hasn't changed that much, as your pound-your-ignorant-chest post shows.) Indeed, India was just fine until the Brits raped it, so take care with your overt, jingoistic racism: you haven't a logical or moral leg to stand on.
As an American who has lived abroad, the one thing *I* can tell you is that Americans are the most embaressing people I've come across: spoiled little children of Empire, their rudeness is only exceeded by their self-righteous certainty that they're better than everyone else. As your post shows, that feeling grows at home, and gets exported whenever the Disney Generation goes abroad.
You honestly make me ashamed to be an American. Assuming this post reflects your true feelings, you don't give me warm and fuzzies for humanity in general, either.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, The Histories
Yes, why would any company want to locate itself in the most concentrated, diverse market for tech talent in the world?
Where else can you hang out your shingle pushing some new-fangled cutting edge tech, and actually have a reasonable expectation of getting a renewable stream of labor that can actually keep up?
Sure you could find a plot of ground in the middle of Kansas for next to nothing, but you are also going to have a hard time getting talent through your door.
As a counter argument, I ask that you name three wildly succesful tech companies that locate themselves in the middle of nowhere.
To all the haters and disbelievers:
To say that Silicon Valley is going to be "reborn" is as obvious as saying that the sun will rise again someday. To say that Silicon Valley will never rise again is as stupid as saying that the sun will never rise again.
OF COURSE SILICON VALLEY WILL RISE AGAIN! How ridiculously obvious is that? Why? Because people want to be rich! Because people want to innovate! Where else are you going to do it, except in Silicon Valley? You have VCs, you have workers, you have the beautiful backdrop, you have the history. The real dreamers, the real entrepreneurs, the real winners aren't just going to drop everything and leave because it's too expensive or because there are no more jobs. THEY CREATE JOBS! If they need more money, they work harder!
I live in the heart of Silicon Valley. Yes, every apartment building has signs up BEGGING for renters. Yes, there are very few jobs, and yes I know many people that have been laid off, and some good friends that have gone back to their homelands like India because they have no hope of finding a job. These are the casualties of any recession.
But give it a year, a few years, and the innovators will rise again. Innovation == wealth creation. Everyone here has dreams of being rich and is willing to work hard for it.
You cannot fine the concentration of highly skilled workers like you can in Silicon Valley. I came from Toronto, Canada's largest city, and everyone there has a middle-class attitude. Work 9-5, get a 3% raise every year, go home and watch TV. I moved here because I was sick of it, and everyone around here has BMWs, $500000+ houses, and absolutely loves what they do. My own personal salary initially tripled upon coming here (as did my rent) and over the past 5 years, my salary has gone up 100% since then. I now work 10-12 hours a day, instead of 6-8 hours a day before, but I fucking love what I do. This is the difference, and this is why Silicon Valley will always rise from the ashes.
When you want to be in the movies, you don't go to Atlanta, or Tampa Bay, or Columbus, or even New York. YOU GO TO HOLLYWOOD, STUPID. If you don't make it in Hollywood, you aren't worth shit. It's exactly the same way with IT. You want to be in Silicon Valley if you want to make it big in technology.
Last time it was the Internet. Next time, who knows what it will be, but there will be a next time!
Silicon Valley doesn't need a rebirth, its doing fine, other than the occasional crazy merger or lawsuit. The problem is people take everything so seriously. Check out this site for a more satirical view of life in the valley
http://www.valleyofthegeeks.com
GOAT SEX MAN JAILED
By Kevin Lynch
A man who had sex with a goat in full view of a train-load of commuters was today jailed for six months.
Stephen Hall, 23, pleaded guilty to one charge of buggery with an animal following the assault on the nanny goat in August last year.
As well as passengers on a passing train, the attack was witnessed by a man out walking with his grandson.
Sentencing Hall, Judge Michael Mettyear at Hull Crown Court described the assault as "bizarre and disgusting".
And he said he was frustrated the law did not permit him to ban Hall from working with children in the future.
Earlier in the week the court heard how HIV-positive Hall had tied his belt around the female goat's neck during the incident at Argyle Street allotments in Hull.
After initially denying the charge and ordering an identification parade, Hall pleaded guilty to one count of buggery with an animal in January.
Charity starts in the home.
And, for you, it would stay there forever, or so the famous quote goes.
Look, you only think you know what you're talking about. The fact of the matter is, so many of the layoffs in this country are due to dot commers with absolutely ZERO real skills to keep them employed after the mountains of completely speculative venture capital were obliterated. It was there choice to work in an industry that had skyscraper intentions but no foundation. That's why so many "techies" are out of work, and the marginalization of businesses due to overprovisioning for future expected business is what hurt and kept down the high-tech industry in the USA. Not high-tech workers from other countries.
But look at it a different way. As a "foreigner", I was on my H-1B, and nearly got my green card but that process got derailed because all I did was switch high-tech jobs, thanks to INS regulations. To me, that isn't fair. But the good thing is this: thanks to NAFTA and the fact that I'm Canadian, I can come back on a TN visa any time I want, as many times as I want. Free trade doesn't just involve the free exchange of capital goods and services, it involves the exchange of skilled workers. If you kick out all those H-1Bs and don't let them back in permanently, they will take the high-tech skills back to their countries and undermine what you have here.
So put your economic protectionist FUD in the trash can. You're only hurting yourself and other Americans in the process in the end. And remember - once upon a time, one of your relatives rode a boat over here from somewhere else too.
He's my favorite tech writer, thanks in no small part to his hacker love story "Hackers" which I've read a dozen times. This is a man who knows his tech roots. It's only fitting that he cover the Woz.
Long term, if you care about American jobs, you are far better importing skilled workers from around the world, making them Americans who spend money in the American economy, pay tax to the American govt. etc, than leaving them in foreign countries where the cost of living is so much lower that they can undercut US companies wholesale, and suck value out of the US economy.
Please make note of the bolded portion of your quoted comment.
If people want to emigrate here to become Americans, that's fine. If they want to hang out here and suck their income out of the US economy and ship it home to their families, they should leave.
Is this the model of a succesful software engineer? Why would I want to be around smart, greedy, assholes for the rest of my life?
It is NOT a myth that it is STILL next to impossible to own a house in Silicon Valley. Here are the problems with what you're saying.
1. You assume that a person is married for dual-income purposes. Let me tell you, this is impossible in "Man Jose" if you've lived there for any length of time. There are simply no women worth marrying there because they've all been snapped up already within WEEKS, or they're materialistic bitches (i.e. they judge you on if you drive a BMW instead of a Hyundai). And if you think I'm going to drive 2.5 hours each way to and from San Francisco to date a single woman up there, you're out of your gord.
2. The average house price in Santa Clara county is around $500,000. But a banker will tell you that your gross annual income must be no less than 1/3 of the value of the home. So, dividing $500,000 by 3, we get $166,666/year! Who in Silicon Valley is going to pay anyone not director level or in sales that much money? On an $85k/year salary, the only thing you can afford *IF* you can find it is something in the East San Jose ghetto, or to drive three hours away in the California Central Valley, or to buy a damn trailer home with incredibly high lot fees ($500/month!).
3. The reality of the situation is that there is no more room to build, and everyone commutes from the East Bay from as far away as Stockton, enduring horrible commutes. And while you're trying to save a few bucks on your $85k per year salary, you're paying $2000/month in rent. How can you save enough money to make a down payment? You can't. That's why my friend with a wife and two children was living with his parents for the last five years - he can't afford any property.
Take it from someone who has lived there during the boom time and never EVER wants to go back - housing is not going to be solved there, and unless you got in five years ago, you will always be an outsider who does not deserve the salary to realistically buy a house.
The American dream is not "make money in America and use it to support a family back in another country where the cost of living is pennies on the dollar". In fact, it has a lot to do with things other than economics, but what the hell, right?
I submit that if you delve back into the history of most americans, they "make money in America and use it to support a family back in another country where the cost of living is pennies on the dollar" but you were born here so what the hell, right?
And don't say that you're a native american because according to the original poster, "prefix americans" don't count.
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
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Maybe if you got some exercise and some new threads you wouldn't have these issues. Every single I guy I have worked with here has gotten married over the years. Maybe your issues are...more systemic, lets say.
But a banker will tell you that your gross annual income must be no less than 1/3 of the value of the home.
What? No one would be able to buy their own house by that math. I don't know who fed you that statistic, but I've never heard it before and it really doesn't make any sense.
3. The reality of the situation is that there is no more room to build, and everyone commutes from the East Bay from as far away as Stockton, enduring horrible commutes. And while you're trying to save a few bucks on your $85k per year salary, you're paying $2000/month in rent. How can you save enough money to make a down payment? You can't. That's why my friend with a wife and two children was living with his parents for the last five years - he can't afford any property.
I can find you $800/month apartments in the South Bay. New units. If you are paying more, it is becuase you want to. If your friend decided to have kids before buying a house, he dinged himself. I know a number of people making in the $80-$90k range who are buying NOW, because they saved and didn't f themselves on rent.
What the hell kind of apartment did you live in?!? I have a nice two-bedroom with onsight laundry and a pool in Campbell, and I only back $1275.
I agree that the housing market is still a bit nuts, but that actually locks a lot of the old-school geeks in here (you know, there was business here before 1997).
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
The secret is to stay in a location where everybody else has a 'middle class attitude' but don't sink to that level yourself. Find a number of other people like yourself at your locality who think like you and get rich together.
Migrating to SV, while it might seem like a quick cheap way to succeed, means being a little fish in the big pond.
Success can be found everywhere. There's nothing inherently 'magic' about SV that makes tech more successful there. FedEx is cheap, and the 'net has flattened out the world in ways unimaginable a decade ago.
Don't move. Don't crowd in where your living expenses are astronomical. Let the other idiot do that.
H1B workers don't take "American" jobs, corporate officers and business owners give "American" jobs to people who are willing to work for the wage corporate officers are willing to give. (They need to protect that 418:1 salary ratio.)
The whole discussion is much too obtuse to begin with. Generalizing and blaming H1Bs for taking jobs is just lightly veiled prejudice. Each situation is different; just like the original poster can't simply lump 'merikans into a whiny bunch of idiots, you can't simply lump and blame H1Bs for doing anything as a whole. That's bad enough in itself--but the real fallacy lies in the idea that you can blame someone just for being willing to work.
Funny, there's still people around who really think that they have some additional rights, or are implictly better than someone else simply because their mother happened to be in a certain geographical location when she went into labor.
Who's the prettiest? SHO'NUFF Who's the baddest? SHO'NUFF
>>3. The reality of the situation is that there is no more room to build
Maybe for single-family homes, but one of the things that bugs me about the Valley is the lack of vertical thinking. Everything is a squatty building with maybe 2 stories.
Lets start thinking vertical. And don't give me that bs about earthquakes. Tokyo has more earthquakes and stronger ones, and they build things vertical.
On a development front, I am glad to see new condos and apartments being built in downtown Redwood City and Mtn View. Start with these then move to the single-family house if you so choose.
This brings up another thing that bugs me. Why do we in the US feel it is necessary to live in a house with a white picket fence and a garage? Shit, I'm happy to have a roof over my head and a toilet that works. When I lived in Europe for a short time, I loved that fact that I didn't need a car--I could walk everywhere in the city. The apartment I was in was on a street where a car could not even fit down it. Not even a Mini. It was great being able to walk everywhere. Allowed me to appreciate the city, let life pass by at a normal pace, and get some healthy walking no matter how sedentary my work was.
I forget...are we at war with Eurasia or East Asia?
For me, the 'hard times' were the 70's, when I'd just gotten married, got my first software-engineer job at $23K/year, and found that a small 2-bedroom house in LA near my work would cost over $150K.
But I'm sure people who lived through the 30's and 40's also have their stories...
Maybe if you got some exercise and some new threads you wouldn't have these issues. Every single I guy I have worked with here has gotten married over the years. Maybe your issues are...more systemic, lets say.
Thanks for proving what kind of judgmental and assumptive individual you are. Just so you know, I weight train three times a week and I wear a size 44R jacket with size 33 pants because my upper body is so built, with less than 15% body fat. Trust me, the ladies like it. I just don't like their attitude at looking at my bankbook. Since I'm now in technical pre-sales, I have a whole range of suits, slacks, shirts and ties, and I don't look or dress like a "typical" techie, much less behave like one. I did have one girlfriend when I lived in California - trouble is, she lived 55 miles away from me in Gilroy. Made it a little tough to see her. When I moved away from SV to the eastern US, I had more dates with real, authentic, down-to-earth women than I knew what to do with. I could be out on a date every single day if I wanted to. Maybe you are the one with "more systemic problems" shall we say, in making broad assumptions about what I look like or how I behave.
What? No one would be able to buy their own house by that math. I don't know who fed you that statistic, but I've never heard it before and it really doesn't make any sense.
I said 1/3 of your annual salary. You say that this figure is bunk. Well, to quote an independent source: "Rule of thumb: You can afford a house that costs between 2 and 3 times your annual salary." Not to mention that SV lenders were giving out 40 and 50 year mortgages to people just to get the payment down to a manageable level. Now it's time to provide independent sources for your assumptions for your position, assuming that Citibank knows more about mortgages than you do.
I can find you $800/month apartments in the South Bay. New units. If you are paying more, it is becuase you want to.
I did a search of rent.net and, lo and behold, there are $800 apartments these days. Before I left Fremont a year ago, new apartments were renting for $1800/month. But that doesn't mean that average houses are significantly less expensive now. MY $250,000 in eastern Pennsylvania will go a lot further than your $250,000 in SV - to the tune of one acre, 2500 square feet, double garage, and close to NYC and Philly. Find THAT deal in SV.
If your friend decided to have kids before buying a house, he dinged himself.
Again, you pass judgment on the situation before you know what you're talking about. He did own a townhome, but when he moved out to find a house, the prices started going up and up and up, to the point where his originally $130,000 townhome now cost something like $300,000. People who haven't lived in SV haven't seen how chaotic the price rise was. He didn't screw himself intentionally. If you think family is "screwing yourself", you should look at your own to your own existence.
I know a number of people making in the $80-$90k range who are buying NOW, because they saved and didn't f themselves on rent.
Rents have only been down for about a year from the looks of things. I coudln't have possibly saved enough money in a year with all of the other expenses of living I had. And I didn't try to compete with people buying a BMW (I own a Ford), and I didn't throw away my money on inane materialistic goods. If you think I'm the only one this happened to, you should ask about 80% of the coworkers in my design center.
The other component of WOZ asks the question "what nifty things could you do with automated location if that capability was nearly free?" What if all appliances, vehicles, computers, and people always knew where they were and everything else of importance was?
The trend toward general purpose GPS devices falling to $100 plus putting one in every vehicle and cellphone means someone will come up with a barebones tranceiver for a few dollars, if not already.
-- The Giver
The real burn for me is all these 3rd world people come here and buy or rent a house then move in the whole god damn family. So you got 10,15, or more people piled on top of each other and willing to work for shit.
Look if that's how you want to live in your country with your culture, that's cool with me.
But I do NOT want to live like that. Which is what I thought the purpose of having countries is.
Maybe if these countries spent more time thinking about themselves and unfucking their own lives/governments/economy/etc., they wouldn't even need to come here to work.
First off if you dont know by now that the US has it's hands in every countries business then I suggest you do some reading. The reason why these countries can't "unfuck" themselves is because the US has other plans for them . For example Iran had a democratic system back in the day, but the US thought oil was more important so with the help of the CIA the shah came back. Years later this hate for what the US did came back, and you had American hostages in Iran. Dont worry Americans aren't the only one's that like freedom, a house, a nice life, etc. but it seems if a country goes away from what the US wants (it risks having it's govt. overthrown
I don't think anyone's saying it's wise to set up a high-tech startup in the middle of Kansas farmland ... but I also think many people play down the suitability of larger midwestern cities.
For example, look at Chicago. You've got a number of major players there (AKA. Motorola), and IBM certainly has a large presence. In a recent survey, Chicago was in the top 20 for tech-savvy cities. You can't tell me it's impossible to find tech-knowledgable people in the Chicagoland area!
There are many disadvantages to the Silicon Valley area. Questions about electrical power available should certainly be key, along with the high risk of earthquake damage, heavy taxes and govt. regulation, occasional water shortages, and an expectation of high wages so employees can afford the high cost of living in the area.
Sure, the weather is great -- but I'd gladly trade some of that off for more personal freedoms. (I like being able to own my own home, instead of pay out big $'s just to rent from someone. I also like being able to drive my car when and where I want to go someplace, and not get penalized with stricter emissions requirements than the other 49 states have.)
Oh, and FYI, I don't even live in Chicago. I've just visited enough to know that it'd be a prime choice if I was to form a tech. company.
"This case is cut and dry. H1B workers take American jobs. Period."
Hey,a job is not an object that belongs to someone. Its not a piece of property that someone else can take. A job is a relationship and a kind of economic free association. Are you saying people should not be allowed to associate freely? That they must deal with an American rather than a person they choose or else?
Why is an abstract thing like a job property, while an invention or software is not?
Why is creating an "artificial scarcity" through copyright bad, while creating real scarcity through visa limits?
Even if a job were some kind of property, its created by an employer, not the employee.
An employee uses a job, the employee doesn't own it.
What is so shocking in all these threads on slashdot is the incredible sense of entitlement many here have. I see a lot of people who want everthing handed to them: jobs, inventions, music, etc.
Who are going to be the productive people of the next generation? Who are going to be the whining leaches that want everything for free?
Actually, what I think is sadder is that you, living in a country with virtually the highest standard of living in the world, can still feel like you're in a state of crisis, and that someone from one of the poorest countries in the world should cut *you* slack for it. I don't flame very often, but you're pathetic as well as ungrateful.
Surprisingly, there *is* a decently viable tech/professional place that was Kansas farmland not very long ago: Overland Park, Kansas. (OK, so it is adjacent to Kansas City. :-)) But Sprint
just laid off thousands of people there, and I have to wonder what might be coming out of the
garages in the area in the next year or three. (For all I know, nothing.)
No I can't tell you that, but I can tell you that while there is *some* cost advantage to Chicago over California, it might not be as obvious a relocation spot as you might think for a SV concern. So it was no surprise that Boeing decided to go there, but that's perhaps a different story.
The funny thing about the electrical power shortage is that it disappeared the moment that the state signed high-price long-term contracts. The potential for earthquake damage is worrisome, but it would be interesting to compare the size of that risk with the bite that Chicago's winters take out of the infrastructure each and every year. California certainly has some bizarre governmental problems, but Chicago doesn't?
Anyway, I think the big key point in California's favor, and it's a huge one, is the quality of the public and private universities there. The UC system is as elitist a public institution as you're likely to find, and that's *exactly* what it should be. Throw in places like Stanford, and you've got a recruiting dream boat.
As far as employment costs go, you could actually make an argument that (at least in non-bubble times) real costs are likely to be lower in California than some other places, because people like California and are willing to pay more rent and/or take less money to work there. (I won't bore you with the details, but if you're puzzled by this, search for "hedonic regression" at google.
Now, I happen to agree with you that places like Chicago, Pittsburgh, KC and St. Louis might be expected to develop larger tech sectors than they already have, but it hasn't yet happened that way. Of these 4, perhaps the strangest omission is not Chicago, but Pittsburgh: There's a big university town with many cultural offerings, a large and growing international population, and every reason to succeed except that it just doesn't quite do it.
Babar
H1Bs do not take jobs from Americans. There aren't enough educated Americans to fill the demand.
There wouldn't need to be as many H1Bs if more kids in American schools would actually learn some math and science and become engineers.
Immigrants have always contributed to success and prosperity in America, and more than in simple proportion to their numbers. A steady influx of the greatest minds and most diligent workers from other parts of the world keeps America in top form. Without it, this country would stagnate into mediocrity.
Don't believe me? Just ask yourself: What is the background of most engineers in the US? Where do our doctors come from? Where do our professors come from? Now ask yourself: Where do our used car salesmen come from? Insurance agents? Lobbyists?
Thank goodness for immigration.
I find it interesting that out of several paragraphs of diatribe, a single phrase, with the magic word "union" in it, generated the string of responses, while the rest of the message seems to have slipped under the radar.
/. crowd has not.) Still, I've yet to see an organization other than unions or trade guilds or any word that symbolizes collective worker action that *attempts* to protect the individual from the predatory practices of the tool-owners. It's a fundamental truism that there's safety in numbers, and until Man decides that force isn't the best way to conduct his daily affairs, that truism will remain. And while it is true that union bosses are often little more than crooks, as Enron graphically displays, you don't have to wear the union label to rip off employees.
At any rate, I don't prefer unions, either (and I've worked for them in the past, which I imagine most of the
In a nutshell, the whole point is that, after all the preaching about open markets and open opportunity, when push comes to shove, Americans cry when someone else does it better than they do, and quickly circle the wagons to ward off those in "fair competition". The originator of this thread would certainly agree with this assertion, as would any Japanese circa 1985, or any European steel executive today. The fundamental irony of the situation is, most of the people here who are "free agents" working for the Man, can't see that in the Cave, their shadows are just as chained as the poor savages' are.
I don't have any answers for this, but I'm not going to pretend that it's not the way things are. Like you, I'm still taking the money, but the same qualities that make me a "solid information technology performer" absolutely refuse me to allow myself the luxury of cozy, fascistic consumerism that the Lego builders in the cubes around me indulge in.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, The Histories
There is little evidence that immigrants
have contributed more to America than
Americans. That is racist, anti-American
nonsense. Where's your proof? Huh?
Platitudes don't always measure up to truth.
It is an American tradition to cut
off immigration after a mass wave of immigration.
We haven't stagnated from it; in fact
we've prospered and grown and give American
middle class families the wealth and security
to have more children. We'll benefit from
a roll back to the Reagan inspired non-enforcement
of immigration laws.
The Japanese kicked our ass in the auto market because they offered what customers wanted. Small fuel efficent cars. Which the big three were VERY slow to respond to.
Not because they used foreign workers.
Josh
stayed a week at a friend's, found a room in a house (the first of 7 moves in 4 years), got a vt220 from stanford salvage and a 14.4 from frys, finished up codeline.el and hideshow.el in the soft amber of the beautiful vt220 font (did devel on netcom when they used to support shell accounts). perused ba.jobs.contract, shocked by disconnect displayed therein. eventually answered a "puzzle" ad for some "consulting" house that finangled me into a trip to MN (even colder than PA) for "training" w/ eventual relo to NYC. 3mo later (snow in may) the relo scam is revealed and i quit (the job sucked too).
back to silly valley, the hatchback sporting a linux bumper sticker (it's not just for breakfast anymore), hooked up w/ taos who were pretty cool, wish i had studied a little before the interview. gigged at some TLAs (unix ws vendors who are still around), i remember my pimp being a pretty pittsburgh transplant, how she said silly valley was not in her 5-year plan.
a week later i offered a hitchhiker a ride on el camino and learned that she's a prostitute. didn't indulge, but did tour the adult clubs. lonely. no culture. sorry, it's too depressing to continue this story....
But SF and Santa Cruz aren't in Silicon Valley - just ask anyone who lives in San Francisco or Santa Cruz, and they'll definitely tell you that they don't live in Silicon Valley.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
This case is cut and dry. H1B workers take American jobs. Period. If all the H1B workers left, there would be more jobs for Americans. And since it is our country, I'm sure you'll understand that we think Americans should have first access to those jobs.
This statement has various flaws. It's almost funny to know that most people think that jobs are somehow a fixed and scarce resource. Jobs are dynamically created and destroyed based on the total economic activity, total demand, and total productive capacity of an economy. If all of the H1B visas were to leave America tomorrow, there would be a significant economic contraction and more job losses.
Y'see, when someone has a job, they earn money, but they also spend money. The money that they spend creates other jobs. If you get rid of this spending, then the subsidiary employment disappears as well. You may be able to replace these positions with less qualified Americans, but you have still reduced the total productive capacity of the economy by banishing these highly productive workers. This makes the economy smaller and less competitive, which lowers standards of living.
Actually, what I think is sadder is that you, living in a country with virtually the highest standard of living in the world
Not true. America merely has the second-highest per-capita GDP in the world. The main reason for this is that a small percentage of Americans are extremely rich.
GOAT SEX MAN JAILED
By Kevin Lynch
A man who had sex with a goat in full view of a train-load of commuters was today jailed for six months.
Stephen Hall, 23, pleaded guilty to one charge of buggery with an animal following the assault on the nanny goat in August last year.
As well as passengers on a passing train, the attack was witnessed by a man out walking with his grandson.
Sentencing Hall, Judge Michael Mettyear at Hull Crown Court described the assault as "bizarre and disgusting".
And he said he was frustrated the law did not permit him to ban Hall from working with children in the future.
Earlier in the week the court heard how HIV-positive Hall had tied his belt around the female goat's neck during the incident at Argyle Street allotments in Hull.
After initially denying the charge and ordering an identification parade, Hall pleaded guilty to one count of buggery with an animal in January.
Click Here
I had to move out of Campbell. My car kept getting broken into at night. But yeah, I had a 2bedroom apartment for about the same price there. The onsite laundry was coinop and a ripoff though.
I think the 2k mark is referring to people too stupid to look outside of Sunnyvale, Mountanview, or Cupertino. Those locations MIGHT be closer to work, but the housing market there is pretty stupid. I also see those cities as very boring places to live.
Maybe there is something to Engels's dialectic after all (thesis, antithesis, synthesis).
They are the bottom of the barrel. Send them home. NOW!
You're such a hypocrite, like every other American. You would have corporations break the law and cut corners, like they already do, so they could deliver a cheap product to you instead of force them to hire qualified people who do quality work and make quality products that cost their true value? I hate paying for an overpriced American car that breaks down in 5 years from a corp that just laid off a few thousand American employees, because they cost too much. I don't care if Ford doesn't make their profits this quarter, that's a few thousand families they just affected without a care. The tech industry is no different. Except with technology, corps have learned they can just buy out their competition and market cheaply made overpriced IP. The main difference is in the tech industry the IP costs a hell of a lot less to duplicate than an automobile. But this same problem plagues everything in our capitalistic system. What gets me is people still think they'll get quality products from cheap labor. Labor eventually wakes up and reallizes their value. :( I want to cry.
And foreigners may work harder, but that is not the measure of a man. Steel workers probably work harder than most people, yet their work is not worth $100k/year. And neither is mine, although I can manage a network of computers of any type you choose. But I get paid and the steel worker gets the shaft. That's fucked up! And foreigners work hard, stay longer hours, etc. But do they do as much as I do? I don't know, I don't work along side most of our developers, but I'll tell ya, they certainly don't have a lot of experience with the hardware they work on. And very little with their OSs. Maybe they learned how to write in a couple of languages, but they usually aren't head and shoulders above Americans. Just more prepared and willing, I'd guess.
Sneakers, good point. Remember when sneakers were really cheap? I don't, I wasn't alive back then. But my mom used to tell me about how she made her own shoes and clothes when she was a kid. Now that we have industrial automation, thanks to the computer and industrial revolutions, we can build factories to pump out hundreds of thousands of sneakers a day. We could make enough for everyone, but what do we do instead? We hire cheap labor to make them by hand and sell them for $100 a pair, using marketting to target them to the high paid middle class Americans, not the workers who make 'em. How sick is that? (I don't have proof, but do you really need it? This should be obvious, from what you've heard about Nike alone).
What's sad is that everyone still thinks Capitalism works. It doesn't. It allows a select few to get most of the money. And money is based off our labor, so they get most of our labor in their back pocket to spend later. That's sick. That's twisted and fucked up and why I won't work for less than $100k. I probably wouldn't even work for $100k if I didn't have debt. Once that is gone you can't pay me enough for what I know about computers and networks.
I'll work slave manual labor like everyone else and live in a cheap apartment or whatever in a slow part of the country where everything is still cheap. Sure I know a lot, sure I can make lots of cash, sure its easy. But its not worth it. Its definitely not worth the stress. If I have to work for a company that only wants to make money and doesn't care about the product I'm pouring my soul into, then I don't want to work for that company for any amount of money. I won't sell my soul.
I say fuck the corps and fuck capitalism. I'll work for free with anyone that wants to work and accomplish something (as long as you agree that we need to take care of eachother, and everyone). Until you come to me and tell me you want to work _with_ me, I'll be at your local drive through taking orders. How's that for your technically competent. Hope they got enough H1Bs.
P.S. I'd also be willing to relocate to another country that wants to work, as well. I don't like the legal system here in America any more. Its just not as Free as I'd expect a nation founded on freedom to be. And the saddest thing of all is no American is willing to fight for their freedom anymore.
Sorry, that was an anticapitalist rant. I do that from time to time. Not directed at anyone, really...
An anticapitalist rant isn't offensive to me. Nationalist ones are.
I pay 1300 for a two bedroom in Sunnyvale with in apartment laundry, pool, cable/dsl, amenities blah blah.. It's there if you look hard enough.
2.5 hours each way to San Francisco from San Jose!?!?!?! What do you do? take El Camino the whole way? you do realize that you could take 280 or 101? Do you drive at like 40mph or something? I've made it down the San Jose from SF AND back in 1.5 hours. Dude the posted limit is 65mph, you're allowed to go at the limit.
Well, yeah. That has something to do with it, and not really in the xenophobic way you're implying.
Let's establish a little background. Historically, people came to America as immigrants. They'd save up enough money to make the trip or make a deal with some individual or company to get here (or they'd get captured and put on a slave ship, but this particular atrocity isn't really relevant to the conversation we're having). Once here, they'd find work and raise a family. Sure, many sent money back to family overseas, but their family -- their spouse, kids, etc -- were here. This has a modern parallel with many modern immigrants from Latin America; in some parts of Mexico, for instance, the number one source of general income is money from relatives in the US.
The H1-B worker is a different matter, however. They, by definition, aren't here on any sort of permanent basis. Rather, they're here to provide what is supposed to be stop-gap expertise in technology.
This places H1 workers at a great advantage over both myself and the more traditional immigrants (let's call them naturalized citizens). While both I and naturalized citizens have our families and dependants here in America (where the cost of living is incredibly high compared to most of Asia), the H1 worker has their dependants in countries like India or Pakistan. This allows them to work for significantly less money -- H1's make, on average, 10-15% less than their citizen counterparts. Moreover, the initial costs related to an H1 mean that they represent a certain investment to a company, meaning that they're actually less likely to be caught up in layoffs than their citizen (again, "native" and naturalized) counterparts.
So, it's not a fair setup. It allows tech companies to hire cut-rate labor from overseas even while, say, the unemployment rate in the Valley hovers around 8%.
I resent the fact that any discussion of H1-B workers breaks down immediately into accusations of racism or xenophobia. It's not the people causing the problem, it's the system, a system which was bought and paid for by greedy companies looking to screw their potential workforce by diluting the labor pool. This is bad for me and, frankly, not so hot for the H1's, either -- they're getting paid less to do the same work, aren't they?
The fix is to eliminate these preferential visas and to instead fasttrack immigration for skilled tech workers. Let workers come to America and compete on a level playing field, and let these poor multi-billion dollar companies pay their workers what the market will bear.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
You are implying that Americans are Nazis.
Americans, in fact, are the people that
kicked the Nazis ass. Critizicing one
country of origin, single sex guest worker
policies which were sponsored by Bill Gates
is not fascist "ethnic purity" argument.
You are so twisted in your attack of
American tech workers that you, yourself,
must be prejudiced. I suggest you heal
your warped mind before taking your hate
out on Americans.
It takes me 30-45 minutes to go from West Cupertino to SF... This guy must be driving on El Camino :|
Heck, you can get there in an hour by train.