Twin Robots Scope Out Titanic, Europa Next?

jmichaelg writes "Wired is running an article on a pair of submersible robots that work in tandem to film underwater scenes. One robot illuminates a scene by placing the light source as close as possible to the object being filmed while the other bot manuevers for the best camera angle. That, and a host of other innovations, makes the pair significantly different than the equipment used when the Titanic was originally filmed. Significant enough that JPL has expressed an interest in using the technology to swim in Europa's seas. How JPL will overcome the time delay isn't mentioned but it's an interesting read nonetheless."

Comments

Not likely

[delphin42]

Considering the fact that NASA has cancelled any and all europa missions in the forseeable future, I doubt these things will see any otherworldly oceans anytime soon. NASA has much more important things to do like putting nukes in space.

Re:Not likely

[niftyeric]

It's a shame too. I would love to see a mission to Europa. I'm curious if there is just the smallest evidence of life there. A mission to Pluto would be interesting as well (I'd just like to see the surface of the thing clearly, as well as seeing the view from Pluto looking toward our Sun).

Reminds me of a quote from Star Trek: Insurrection.. "Does anyone remember when we used to be explorers?" -Picard

Re:Not likely

[spike hay]

We will not likely go to Europa in the near future. However, we should go there.

Europa has probably the best prospeacts for life anywhere in the solar system. It most likely has a liquid ocean underneath the ice, warmed by the tidal effects of Jupiter. Deep sea vents would emit chemicals that could start life. Some people think now that life on earth may have started near deep-sea vents.

We would probably get there using nuclear propulsion if we were using a probe. Nuclear-thermal propulsion has around twice the specific impulse of conventional chemical rockets. When the probe gets to Europa, it will send down a small submersible. It will burrow through the thick ice by melting it with radioisotopes.

For a manned mission to Europa and the Jovian system, which may happen in maybe 60 years, we would probably use VASIMR engines. These are plasma rocket engines under development that would get around 30,000 seconds, or 60 times the efficiency of conventional rockets. They work by using magnetic fields to accelerate high-temperature hydrogen plasma.

VASIMR is so efficient that it would allow slow intersteller missions with 1-2% C.

For interplanetary missions, it would allow missions to Mars in about 2 months and missions to Jupiter lasting a year. Also, upon return to earth, the VASIMR ships can just be refueled and resupplied and sent on their way for very cheap.

Also, VASIMR's have some power. They have more power than ion engines.

For interplanetary missions, we really need an inexpensive space plane, like the X 34. That would slash launch costs.

split that meson

[bandix]

How JPL will overcome the time delay isn't mentioned but it's an interesting read nonetheless.

Why with the ansible of course! ;-)

1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[FortKnox]

First, the assumption. We are assuming that there is a sea under Europa's Ice Sheet, aren't we? Do we have any proof that there is a sea underneith?

The ethical question (with the assumption)... should we crack open the ice sheet to get to the sea? This is a sea that hasn't been exposed to anything above the ice for a looong time. We have no idea what effects this could cause....

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[flewp]

I suppose one possible option might be to basically drill in slowly, and let ice form again on top. However, I'm not sure how you'd overcome the problem of the ice locking/freezing the craft in place. Who knows, maybe you could heat up the entire outer surface of the craft so that it melts it's way down, and as the ice melts, it then refreezes above without freezing in the craft.

Ah well, just some crackpot ideas ;)

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[flewp]

Oops, meant to also add in that going through the holes left by volcanic activity might not be best idea. Gases, hot liquids, etc may end up causing some trouble.
Also, the article mentions that radio waves do not travel through water that good, does that apply to most liquids? If they (radio waves) don't travel that well through liquids, how do they plan on sending back data? Have an umbilical cord that leads to the surface and acts as an antenna?

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[nagora]

Do we have any proof that there is a sea underneith?

Not proof but the surface of Europa has so few craters and so many faultlines that there's very little else that would account for it other than that the ice is moving on a liquid base.

TWW

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[CheshireCatCO]

No, no and no.
Radio/radar have nothing to do with it. Nor does a "still hot core." Any body the size of Europa would have cooled by now, even with radiactive heat. (Mars, being much larger, is also largely cooled.)

We are pretty sure that there is a liquid ocean because 1) The pattern of cracks imaged on the surface. 2) The types of surface features, which are generally held to be consistent with a liquid ocean under the ice. And 3) the Galileo magnetometer measurements of an induced magnetic field, indicating a lquid interior. Modelling indicates that the field is only consistent with a liquid near the surface, not the in the core.

The heat needed to keep the water liquid comes from tidal flexing due to the forced eccentricity of Europa's orbit, unlike the usual situation for rocky bodies

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[llamalicious]

Sooner or later we're going to have to harvest the mass of Europa to fuel Poole's GUT drives, so I vote sooner. Let's get it out of the way now, it'll make our great-great-great grandkids happy.

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[wiredog]

There are apparently leads, or openings in the ice, on Europa. So the sea there does get exposed to vacuum sometimes.

The sub, if sent, would probably melt it's way through a thin spot, rather than searching for a lead. Ballard and Pellegrino have written about this sort of stuff.

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[Rogerborg]

• This is a sea that hasn't been exposed to anything above the ice for a looong time. We have no idea what effects this could cause....

As a signatory to the Outer Space Treaty, the United States is obliged to ". . . pursue studies of outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies . . . so as to avoid their harmful contamination. . . ". Non-contamination of Europa is already being dealt with

.

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[CheshireCatCO]

But hasn't been happened that long. The tidal flexing only occurs because of the Laplace resonance with Io and Ganymede. The capture into this resonance is a relatively recent event in Galilean moon history. So "still" is inaccurate.

Also inaccurate is "core". The tidal heat is most probably disappated in the outer layers, since tidal forces are proportional the the diameter of the layer. (Cores are small, so don't get flexed much.) Also, since the ice can turn to mush and even melt, it makes it easier to dump the heat there.

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[argStyopa]

Actually, one of the critical bases for assuming there's an ocean under the surface of the ice on Europa is that the cracks on the surface are dynamic and the surface is so remarkably free of impact structures that it is clear that rapid refreezing of a liquid medium is the most likely cause.
If this is the case, then the liquid UNDER the ice has been exposed to external 'contaminantion' almost constantly.
If you're talking more specifically about somehow contaminating the "Europa Biome" with something from the "Terra Biome", well, that's an argument against ANY space exploration, ever. I think we've gotten pretty good at cleaning the probes we're sending to other planets by now. At least, nobody's complained!

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[CheshireCatCO]

The problem is that the out layers can flex indepently of the inner layers, particularly if an ocean is involved. (In fact, the ice shell might be totally decoupled from the mantle and core, a thought which usally causes me to need a good lie-down.) Even if they are coupled, the ice and water flex more, being father out, and so take more energy in. (Think of tides on Earth: the ocean response more than the rock does.)

Where this really gets interesting is that different materials also are better at disipating heat. In fact, ice is much better than rock and metal, so the ice layers take most of the heating. Warm, mushy ice and water are better than cold ice (the latter being, at the temperatures of most of the outer solar system, a rock for all intents). So the ice shell and ocean would take the brunt of the heating, not the core. In fact, it's far from clear that the core or mantle heat up in any significant way. Since the heat probably gets dumped into the ice, perhaps even in a narrow layer (as my officemater, a Europa modeller, is starting to suspect), the heat works its way out quickly, not heating the core much at all. (Just like how the sunlight on Earth's surface does very little to heat the crust a few tens of meters down.)

So as incredible as it might seem, particularly given our intuition based on Earth and other rocky planets, the outer, icey layer is probably the warmest on Europa. (The same is true with the Sun's corona, of course, but we actually kind of understand Europa...)

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[Tackhead]

> We are assuming that there is a sea under Europa's Ice Sheet, aren't we? Do we have any proof that there is a sea underneath?

Depends on what you mean by proof, but the magnetometer evidence is pretty strong.

We need a Europa orbiter to take gravity measurements to look for tides and other evidence that'll tell us how thick the crust is. With that, we can design the submersible and crust-penetrator, and select an appropriate landing site for the probe.

> The ethical question (with the assumption)... should we crack open the ice sheet to get to the sea? This is a sea that hasn't been exposed to anything above the ice for a looong time.

Actually, the sea won't be exposed with the probe either - like the probes at Lake Vostok (a subsurface lake in Antarctica), the Europa submersible will probably melt its way through the crust, and the "hole" through which it descends will freeze over it.

Also, there are cracks in the surface that appear to indicate upwelling of material from below. Could be water from the seas, could be slush from below the ice, but above the water. Hard to tell.

It's also possible that the peaked craters described in the first press release I cited were from impacts in thicker portions of the crust.

An orbiter should be able to show us areas where the crust is thinnest.

Meantime, the folks at planetary protection will be making damn sure that any Europa probe is sterile before landing.

IMNSHO, despite not getting a full sterilization treatment (that is, what we'll be doing to any Europa orbiter or probe) on Earth, Galileo is completely sterile after having been fried in Jovian radiation for the past several years and poses no threat to whatever it smashes into.

That opinion aside, the fact that the planetary protection folks at NASA still said "chuck Galileo into Jupiter when you're done with it, just to be on the safe side" should give you some idea of just how damn sure we'll be of a future probe's sterility before we attempt landing on Europa. (Insert obligatory Arthur C. Clarke joke here :-)

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[CheshireCatCO]

Wrong on both counts. I've already given you a prefectly good case of where the outer layer of something is warmer than the interior (Earth's surface vs. a few meters down). Dig down, you'll see what I mean.

You're intuition about the flexing is equally wrong. Flex your sand by millimeters and jostle the water by tens of cm. The water heats more, for obvious reasons. Doubt this all you like, it is quite simply the case. So I'm trusting the computer models and geophysics degrees of my officemate over your intuititions on this one. Sorry.

And I didn't mean that the exact surface (the space/ice interface) was warmest, it's pretty cold. I meant that the icey/watery outer shell is warmer than the rocky/metallic interior since the former is where the tidal energy is deposited (aka, the heat is disipated). All the current research I've read points to this, despite your doubts.

Re:1 Ethical Question, 1 Assumption

[CheshireCatCO]

You're still thinking the heating has been going on forever and has reached steady-state. It probably hasn't done the latter since the former is untrue. Exactly your point about spring, in fact. And the center will NEVER get hotter than the upper layers if the heating is being done in the upper layers. (Simple physics, that: equilibrium is the same temperature throughout.)

I totally fail to see your coffee point. Yes, you can heat it by stirring, just like you can heat silly-putty by flexing it. There is no fundemental different between water/ice and rock, except that the former experience much more flexing. (It is true that if you flex rock by the SAME AMOUNT, it heats more. But again, this is probably NOT happening on Europa.) So if you don't think the former will heat up, then you need to reject the latter, too. So I am at a loss why you're rejecting this.

(The tidal heating due to the Moon is way, way, way down from Europa, since the mass of the tide-inducing body comes into the formula in a huge way, (like mass to the 7/2 power); since Jupiter is 100,000 times the mass of Earth, a priori, the heating is expected to be fantasically higher.)

The article can mention volcanoes all it likes. Most of what I've heard lately implies the opposite. Researchers WANT their to be volcanoes for astrobiological reasons, but indications I've seen are that there are not any. The reason you keep hearing about this is that people want them there.

(To get a volcano, you need to heat the rock to more like 1200 K, vs. 300 K for water. If you want a MOLTEN interior, that's a lot more heating still. )

In any event, you refuse to believe the current research because your intuition is probably wrong for this case. Since nothing I can present will ever convince you otherwise, we should drop this.

I'm *so* glad....

[Teancom]

that we all know who JPL is. I would have hated to have /. waste bandwidth by a short parenthetical aside like this (Jet Propulsion Laboratory, the company who is only mentioned once in the article, but twice in the write up).

Re:I'm *so* glad....

[NOT-2-QUICK]

Silly man...everyone knows what JPL stands for!!!

Obviously, it is the initials of famous singer/actress/model J. Lo. That's right, the infamous Jennifer Penelope Lopez!!!

And yes...she has been working with Dark Matter for some time now in hopes of not only exploring the depths of the ocean on Europa, but also exploring the mystery that is her giant butt ...

Jet Propulsion Laboratory...where do you guys come up with this stuff!!! :-)

Make sure it is disenfected.

[jellomizer]

It would be real great if they did find some primitive life there. But then the next mission all of it was whiped out by Small Pox, or some other virus that is compleatly forgen to the moon. Learn from the Simpsons, Rember what the Bull Frogs did to Austrailia.

Re:Make sure it is disenfected.

[s20451]

It's extremely unlikely that an organism attuned to room temperature and pressure, and an oxygen environment, could thrive in a sulfurous ocean at just above freezing under hundreds of atmospheres of pressure. We would want to disinfect the probes, not so much out of a worry that they would destroy the Europan ecosystem, but to ensure that any life signs that we found would not be false positives from terrestrial organisms.

Re:Make sure it is disenfected.

[s20451]

Bacteria would be likely to survive the journey -- samples from the unmanned Surveyor lander, returned to Earth by Apollo astronauts, showed terrestrial bacteria had survived years of vacuum and radiation on the Moon.

Re:Make sure it is disenfected.

[dzym]

Not to sound completely ignorant, but what makes you think a virus that has "evolved" in terrestrial conditions has a snowball's chance in hell of surviving the conditions of Europa's "oceans", and even if it somehow manages to do so and remain active, what possibility is it that it can actually "infect" whatever organisms may be there, should any exist?

New Lifeform ?

[EpsCylonB]

In the late '90s, scientists discovered the Titanic was being consumed by a new life form, composed of 20 different species of bacteria, two species of fungus and two species of Archaea that, together, form a symbiotic rust coral or rusticle (they look like icicles) that thrive on iron.

These rusticles have formed a single biological mass that is believed to be the largest life form on earth. It seems like poetic justice that this death site of historic magnitude should make such large contributions to man's discovery of new life, not only on Earth, but perhaps on other planets as well.

Interesting, I have never heard of this before, does it really count as a single lifeform ?, sounds like a micro ecosystem to me.

Re:New Lifeform ?

[jmichaelg]

I wondered about the "largest lifeform" claim as well. If the various critters are necessary for each others survival then "single lifeform" is probably defensible. After all, you depend on your lung cells to provide oxygen to your blood cells and so, depending on how you view yourself, you are a micro ecosystem or a single lifeform. I would be surprised if anyone has done the necessary biology to establish the 'rusticles' interdependence.

As to "biggest," there's a tree fungus somewhere on the East Coast that is believed to encompass an entire forest and as it's a single mat, some claim it's the biggest earthly life form.

Re:New Lifeform ?

[argStyopa]

I haven't heard anyything about this life form, but it's clearly not the largest life form on earth.
1) it's individuals as a collective organism, so if you use this as a "single mass" specimen the Great barrier Reef is probably the biggest.
2) For single 'organism' the biggest is clearly the Armillaria ostoyae (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/ fungus000806.html) or the Aspen tree "pando" (http://www.extremescience.com/aspengrove.htm)

Yeah but it would be interesting if

[HanzoSan]

We found some huge underwater city filled with aliens, or other strange and unusual lifeforms in these seas of Europa.

Whats the plan for this? Do we even have one besides hitting the panic button?

Time delay? What time delay?

[David Kennedy]

Unsure what the time delay mentioned above is about.
I assume the robots work in tandem with each other; being close to each other means minimal lag when co-ordinating the lighting. The only delay is transmitting pictures back of course.

Server seems to have tumbled over already so I can't check but it's interesting to consider what sort of lighting metrics they use - a human at home can say, "That's looks nicer lit like that." but what criteria should be used for autonomous work? Highest constrast? Smallest resolvable feature?

Re:Time delay? What time delay?

[jmichaelg]

The robots are remotely controlled by the fiber optic umbilical cords. JPL would presumably land a radio transponder on Europa's surface and relay the radio control from Earth to the transponder which would pass the signals on to the submerged robots via the fiber. Only problem is that Europa is over 30 light-minutes away so the control delay makes me wonder whether the idea is feasible. Imagine playing Unreal Tournament with 30 minute ping times...

Re:Time delay? What time delay?

[Rogerborg]

• I assume the robots work in tandem with each other

I was thinking that robots plural is a misnomer, and that for all practical purposes this is a robot, singular. Sure, it's neat that the parts are separated, but if they act together and are individually useless, that passes the duck test for being a single entity.

Re:Time delay? What time delay?

[sharkey]

Imagine playing Unreal Tournament with 30 minute ping times...

Don't have to. I have a Concentric/XO dial-up.

Might as well say it

[sharkey]

• All These Planets Are Yours Except Europa

• Attempt No Landing There

Re:Might as well say it

[PhxBlue]

Might as well say this, too, then. . .

All your planet are belong to us

Re:Might as well say it

[sharkey]

but I think I have it right.

Probably. I thought it was humorous, but not so much that I wanted to spend a lot of time dicking with the lame-ass lameness filter.

Re:Might as well say it

[spike hay]

A.D. 2020
After we land on Europa:

Back on earth:
We get signal!
Europan: How are you gentlemen?!
Europan: All your planet are belong to us!!!

They might actually find something

[HanzoSan]

Thats why they canceled.

The problem isnt, if we will find something its when. And the biggest problem is what do we do when we do find something? Panic? Because NASA and our Government has no clue of what to do, Seti and pro alien people would be wanting to meet the aliens and hug them, and others will want to kill them off, dont forget 90 percent of the USA is religious and could worship them, call them demons, or whatever.

So if we do go to Europa and find something, is NASA prepared for it:?

Europa is the biggest canidate for life, chances are theres life on it, theres the proper climate, and theres water, the life is most likely going to be underwater deep sea type life but theres still the chance for intelligent life.

Re:They might actually find something

[Darth_Burrito]

dont forget 90 percent of the USA is religious and could worship them

All Hail Stephalococcus-Europacus

Dark Matter is Mike Cameron, film-maker is Jim

[uugabuuga]

Cool. Not to make everyone else too jealous, but I was recently at a presentation by Mike and Jim Cameron about this project. Mike gave about a short presentation about the development of the ROV, and then Jim gave a much longer one about the missions. How cool is it that one of the project paramaters is that the ROV has to be small enough to fit in a "B" deck window? One of the many great quotes of the evening from Jim was "I paid for these guys, so I drove mine on every dive. Mike had to share."

The footage is *AMAZING*. There are stained glass windows completely intact. In one stateroom, there's a water pitcher sitting on a shelf above a water glass still standing upright on a vanity. Still upright!!! After the sinking and the impact! Jim talked about how important it was to have 2 units, so that there could be "characters" in the shots. Oh, and not to ruin anything, but Bill Paxton is in on the project. The quote went something like "I'm making Bill do for real what he pretended to do in the movie"

At one point they had a battery failure on one of the units due to a manufacturer's defect. So they rigged up a harpoon to the other, and went in and rescued it. It was an amazing feat, and they surfaced absolutely elated. But their victory was short lived, for the date of the rescue was 11 September.

At several points during the presentation the audience broke into applause at the sheer grandeur of the footage. I can't wait to see the finished project, especially after they get some of the stuff enhanced and cleaned up. There were 12 dives on Titanic, 9 of them filming missions. And trust me on this one guys, you *must* see this film. Even if you aren't into wrecks, it will blow your mind.

"Attempt no landing there"

[Ars-Fartsica]

I thought it was pretty clear that Europa was off-limits. Oh well.

Re:"Attempt no landing there"

[jmichaelg]

It was until the Europan's started broadcasting "General Hospitable" and "All My Critters" at which point the obelisk decided our solar system was a lost cause and took off for parts unknown.

NASA has the Europa Orbiter scheduled

[funky49]

In 2008, NASA is currently planning to launch a probe to the Jupiter system called the Europa Orbiter. Its objectives are to determine the presence of or the absence of an Europan subsurface ocean, to find out where exactly is this ocean and to understand how the surface features formed. The Europa Orbiter will also find candidate-landing sites for missions to Europa's surface.

Re:NASA has the Europa Orbiter scheduled

[xanadu-xtroot.com]

URL please?

Re:NASA has the Europa Orbiter scheduled

[majestyk2000]

Maybe here?:

Europa Orbiter

What a waste of money

[PhysicsGenius]

While I applaud JPL for out-of-the-box thinking, I have to wonder what the chances are of finding an iceberg-wrecked cruise ship at the bottom of an ocean on a moon of Jupiter.

Europa has liquid ocean due to Galileo Probe

[funky49]

The gravitational field probe on Galileo measured Europa to be "mostly rock, with an outer shell of water about 60 miles thick." Other instruments gave readings that supported oceans under Europa's surface. The near-IR spectrometer found evidence of salts and sulfuric acid that came out of cracks on the ice. The magnetometer reported changes in Europa's magnetic field which scientists say to resemble a salty liquid ocean.

Re:Europa has liquid ocean due to Galileo Probe

[jmccay]

Interesting, the article said it was also 30 miles thick. The article also mentioned that there are holes in the ice created by volcanos.

NASA already has that base covered

[funky49]

NASA is already making sure that they do not contaminate Mars/Europa/etc with probes. In fact, they have been thinking about that since 1999. Check out http://centauri.larc.nasa.gov/outerplanets/Europa_ PPR.pdf for a rather laborious read.

When I was young..

[uigrad_2000]

I remember asking a very learned man why space exploration was important. We have yet find anything on the moon, or any planet that adds to our daily lives.

His response: "The technology we've developed due to NASA projects is huge, and mostly unmeasurable. For example, the VCR your parents own would not be possible without technology we developed in our quest to explore outer space."

This is sad. Today the tables have turned.

We wouldn't be able to explore the moons of Jupitor if it wasn't for the technology we developed to make some sappy chick-flick.

Our thirst for entertainment has become paramount, and all else is now secondary!

Re:When I was young..

[Xzzy]

> This is sad. Today the tables have turned.

Why is it sad? It merely lends credence to the idea that necessity breeds invention. People wanted to explore space, so they made stuff that eventually became today's VCR's. People wanted to explore the interior of one of the most famous shipwrecks ever, so they made a couple robots that could do it.

Just because the goals have different purposes (financial gain versus scientific) doesn't make the inventions "sad".

In other words, productivity can come from even the most trivial pursuits.

Re:When I was young..

[The Cat]

That's because every idea must now be in the form of an executive summary for a multi-million dollar business plan.

At work, they call it a "business case." No employee is allowed to do anything unless a "business case" can be made for it, and there is no such thing as a moderate success.

I have a better idea.

[HanzoSan]

Instead of big robots, my idea to search for life would be to use microbots, they'd work like insects and drill under the ice by swarming to a certain spot and in a combined effort drill under the ice.

Thousands or even millions of these bots could be stuffed into a capsule if this drilling method cannot work, and let a big drill robot drill a really small thin tube and let the microbots go in through the tube into the water beneath the ice.

Once beneath the ice, they all spread out, reproduce via an assembly process, if theres materials to do so, each bot has a camera, a small light, they can swarm in areas to light that area up, or spread out if theres a need to.

If theres life on europa under the sea it makes no sense to use expensive big robots which these lifeforms could just break instantly, using small robots which can spread out in an instact, and which act similar to a school of fish would be perfect for exploring the ocean on an alien planet.

Thats my opinion, I dont work for NASA but i know NASA has the technology to do this right now, Its not a technology issue its a cost issue.

With Bush cutting budgets and lowering taxes every chance he gets, theres no way this project could ever happen. We have the technology to do it, we have the technology to send a man to mars, to terraform mars, to explore europa, pluto, etc

The reason we dont, is because these new technologys are expensive.
It would take several billion to explore europe, it would take maybe 100 billion to send a man or men to mars, it would take a few trillion and a couple of decades to terraform mars. I think we should begin to terraform mars now for our childrens sake, because i dont think earth will last another 100 years at this pace.

Getting through the ice

[XNormal]

Drilling isn't really an option. Melting your way through with a small radiothermal heat source is relatively easy. But what about the datalink? While melting its way in it would need to leave a cable connected to a radio relay left on the surface. Unless the sub is going to be limited by the length of the cable there will need to be another relay at the bottom of the ice layer that translated the signals to either ultrasound or blue-green laser. Add to that another relay in orbit around Europa and just multiply the probabilities that all components in this chain will not fail...

are /. editors afraid...

[C_nemo]

...that we won't like robots not going to space?

angeling this story at space exploration was kinda lame. these ROV's sound great, they could be used for exploring the oceans(you know the big ble areas on the map). like this:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/07/1612 44 &mode=thread

We already know more about our solar system than we do about the oceans. this discussion will soon drift into a 'when these ROV's come to europa' thread.

i think one of the reasons of JPL's interest is the small size and weight

Actually, no Solar Sails.

[HanzoSan]

Solar sail, Microbots stuffed into a small capsule, and you could get to Europa at very fast speeds.

Solar Sails at 150,000 mph, which is far faster than nuclear
Nuclear also has heat problems, and sure it can
Solar Sail
See how it works http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop19au g99_1.htm

Also we could use Mini-Magnetospheric Plasma Propulsion

Plasma or ionized gas is trapped on the magnetic field lines generated onboard, and this plasma inflates the magnetic field much like hot air in a balloon.

See prototype

Re:Actually, no Solar Sails.

[spike hay]

Think of the sun and the solar wind as just winds here on earth. Sails and M2P2's can "tack" the solar wind and light just as sailboats tack into the wind.

BTW, M2P2's are an excellent idea. They only work for small probes (~200 lbs). But for small probes, nothing beats them for speed and price. They can go over 150,000 miles an hour, many times faster than the Voyager.

Also, they are cheap. M2P2's use plasma to form a magnetosphere around them. This catches the solar wind and can propel them.

Heres how it works: You just have a regular electromagnet just weighing a couple lbs. Normally, the magnetic field of a magnet such as this would only be inches wide. However, helium plasma is formed by coronally discharging electricity through thin helium gas. This plasma is pumped into the magnetic field of the soleniod. The plasma would drag the field lines out to 10 miles!! This would create a solar sail 10 miles in diameter, with only a magnet and a couple electrodes. It produces about a newton of thrust continously.

hmmm....

[Em Emalb]

Ok first off...

"Sound travels well underwater, but sound is slow and can't handle the data transfer rate required for video."

I understand what they are trying to say, but they say it akwardly. How about, the speed of sound is slowed underwater, therefore isn't a viable option for what they are trying to do.

There, that's better. Next, Jake and Elwood huh? Good to know the Blues Brothers are still on film, especially after the not-very-good Blues Brothers 2000. ;-)

My work is done here.

Re:hmmm....

[Maran]

"How about, the speed of sound is slowed underwater, therefore isn't a viable option for what they are trying to do."

Erm, I may be wrong - GCSE physics was a long time ago - but isn't sound faster underwater because it's more dense? I think they're just saying that sound can't provide the bandwidth for video at any decent framerate.

Maran

Re:hmmm....

[frankie]

"Sound travels well underwater, but sound is slow and can't handle the data transfer rate required for video."

I understand what they are trying to say, but they say it akwardly. How about, the speed of sound is slowed underwater

Apparently you don't understand, because you got it wrong. Sound is 5x faster in water than in air. Nevertheless, sound (even underwater) doesn't have the bandwidth to carry video signals (not to mention noise, transmission loss, etc). You need radio or cable or something. That was their point.

Now there's a leap

[The Cat]

Well, we'll start by filming the Titanic on the 12th, and then we'll be ORBITING JUPITER BY THE WEEKEND!!

Need more than swimmers for Europa

[Pedrito]

How JPL will overcome the time delay isn't mentioned but it's an interesting read nonetheless

I'm more interested in how they're going to get two submersible robots under a few kilometers of ice first. Not to mention, to communicate, they'd have to be tethered (water isn't real conducive to radio communications). They've got a lot more than just a time delay to worry about.

I don't see how this could be reliably automated. Maybe with some people drilling it could be done, but I have a feeling that if we dropped a robotic drilling system, something would go wrong. It's just a bit too complex for me to have faith in it.

Re:Need more than swimmers for Europa

[Pyrosz]

They probably wont drill into the ice. One idea is to launch a nuclear powered heat "drill". This would simply heat up and melt into the ice. Simple and nothing to break with no moving parts like drill bits. Trouble is what happens if it crahes into the moon instead of landing like it should...

Message from beyond: Attempt no landings there...

[tenzig_112]

"All these worlds are yours-- except EUROPA. Attempt no landings there."

hmm..

[waspleg]

"instead of dragging the cable into the hull and returning on the exact same path (and perhaps catching the optical fiber on something), the bots continually feed out the cable they need and exit the wreck wherever it is convenient.

When the bots get back to their docks on the submersibles, the umbilical is simply jettisoned. Not having to go back or untangle the cable is a tremendous time-saver. Furthermore, the cable is designed to decompose quickly so it won't leave an unsightly web-like mess for future visitors to encounter."

i wonder if decomposing fiber optic lines are good for preservation of the ship.. or the life around it..

Eh?

[Cutriss]

Significant enough that JPL has expressed an interest in using the technology to swim in Europa's seas.

Funny...I remember reading an edict a few years back that went something along the lines of:

"All these worlds are yours, except Europa. ATTEMPT NO LANDING THERE."

Wait a minute...

[Lethyos]

Can't you read?

"All these worlds are yours, except Europa. Attempt no landings there."

I tell you, we're only asking for trouble. Personally, I think if a gigantic black universal Swiss Army Knife tells you to not land somewhere, you should definitely not land there!

Possibility greater than 0

[wiredog]

So it behooves (love that word..) us to be careful. Better too caution, than not cautios enough. The same applies for any samples returned. What if it turns out that some Europan life form loves vinyl?

Re:Possibility greater than 0

[brer_rabbit]

So it behooves (love that word..) us to be careful. Better too caution, than not cautios enough. The same applies for any samples returned. What if it turns out that some Europan life form loves vinyl?

My gawd, hip hop DJs around the world would have to switch to CDs!

Re:Have I missed something?

[MacBrave]

It's a quote from the SF book '2010: Odyssey 2' by Arthur C. Clarke

Time delay

[Scholasticus]

The only way to get around the time delay (short of sending a human crew) would be to program the robots to have a great degree of autonomy. So, all you OSS coders out there ... let's make sure this thing doesn't end up running on Windows 2020. Maybe you could call it GNUENE (GNU's Not Unix's Europaprobe's Not a Europaprobe) or something catchy like that.

Re:More important tech

[JJ]

Until the space program started requesting ever smaller computers, there was virtually zero drive to downsize them. Although the thought and even practice of placing computer memory on chips existed before the Mercury program, nobody would have invested the money that allows VLSI (and hence the 'modern' computer industry.) Thus my job, your job and probably nearly everyone on Slashdot can thank space exploration.

Giant red octopusii

[SpinyNorman]

I'm all for cool robotic NASA expeditions, but what about also using these things on earth - there's plenty to discover here.

We KNOW the oceans here are teraming with giant squid and giant red octopii (octocpussies?) yet can't find the damm things!

How can we be sure we don't roam around Europa's oceans, find nada, yet maybe there's a giant red octopii there too!

Re:man o war

[Medievalist]

/.
The resemblance between jellyfish and the Portugese man-o-war is mostly a matter of appearance, although there are some functional similarities too (both have stinging cells and drift freely, for instance).

Man-o-war are siphonophores, and the biologists say they are communal organisms. The transparent blue bladder that floats on the sea surface is one animal; each stinging tentacle that hangs from this float is another, each leech-like feeding polyp still another, and the community is further enlarged by separate male and female reproductive polyps. None of these animals can reproduce or even exist apart from the colony, but they have distinct separate genetic material.

The whole thing plays hell with traditional definitions of what individuality is, and what exactly comprises a single organism.

--Charlie