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Microsoft's Guide to Accepting Donated PCs
An anonymous reader links us to Microsoft's Guide to Accepting Donated Computers
for Your School, which contains humorous statements such as
"If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC. "
It's just an amusing little read that basically amounts to keeping the license
with the PC. Also neglects to mention the Naked PC discussed in this slashdot story.
...it'll be a good learning experience for the kids when they install a new OS...
MS is trying once again to takeover the minds of the children. Get them using only Windows in school and watch what they will ask for at home. It worked for Apple a long time ago, and now MS is trying to follow suit. In the words of an obscure tech, "Give me linux or give me an apple"
It is a legal requirement to keep the same OS? I'm not so sure....
"It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC."
What the hell sort of scare tactic is that? Last I checked when I purchased a computer I could install whatever I wanted to on it.
I can understand their point -- that specific PC is licensed with that specific copy of Windows. How many schools will read this and treat it as gospel, however? Hopefully, not many. As a gov't agency, our PC's are completely wiped prior to donation -- it is our policy. Keeping Win in the box does teach kids how to reboot, though...
...we are from the government - we are here to help...
"Hey, I want to donate this computer for the school's Beowulf cluster."
"Do you have the original disks that came with it?"
"Err, no."
"Sorry, I can't accept it."
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
What if the machine had its original OS upgraded? For example, the original machine came with the OEM Win95, but then was upgraded to Win98? Can't you donate the Win98 license along with the machine and its original license?
Also, what if the machine is donated with a non-MS operating system, or for that matter, no operating system at all?
We should write an alternative guide and provide these to schools!
Here's some ideas:
- You are under no obligation to accept any software, hardware or other parts provided.
- You may refuse any (software) licenses donated since you have not accepted them.
- You are free to reinstall any software to the machines provided that you aqcuire valid licenses for this software
- etc.
If this 'must keep originally installed OS' were a law (and I cannot for the life of me imagine that it is) there would be plenty of workarounds.
One would only need to find out what constitutes the PC. Is it the processor, the case, the hard drive? Whatever it is - change that so that you no longer have the original PC. Then install whatever you want on it.
I'm sure there are many more ways around such a thing.
.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
This is one of the most outrageous, egregious things I've ever seen Microsoft spew out of its venomous corporate lips. Please tell me this is not true. If it is a legal requirement, then the law must be changed.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
This blurb from Microsoft is absurd, but in many cases the software on the machine is worth more than the hardware. Both the donor and the charity should be attentive to the value of the software. I assume you would get an extra tax break if you donate your unused software licenses with the computer. BTW: It is also good to take all of the pictures of nekkid ladies off the computer as well. You don't want your donation to be too educational.
quote:
;)
If you feel it is in the best interest of your school to accept the donated PCs, make sure that the hardware donation includes the original operating system software. Keeping the operating system with the PC is not just a great benefit - it is a legal requirement.
Of course, in Microsoft's point-of-view, the only operating system for the PC is Windows, and cleaning the hard drive means you need to pirate a copy of Windows to bring it back to life.
BTW, Google has automatic spelling correction now. Rejected slashdot submission, go figure
Q. How does the PC owner transfer their license rights for the operating system?
A. The GPL can be found here.
Q. What if the donor can't find the backup CDs, End-Use License Agreement, End-User manual and the Certificate of Authenticity? Can they still donate the PC and operating system?
A. It can be downloaded from here
- [grunby]
A: Keeping the original parts with the vehicle is not just a great benefit - it is a legal requirement. Use of non-GM parts (often referred to as "deadly aftermarket assault parts") or hiring non-GM-certified mechanics will not only void your warranty, but may result in prosecution, injury, or death.
If you think about using aftermarket assault parts, think again -- for the kids.
"Keeping the operating system with the PC is not just a great benefit - it is a legal requirement."
That sounds nice and all but they fail to describe the great benefits. If they did it would sound something like:
It will crash all the time.
It will be insecure and probably allow outsiders access to your network.
You will need to upgrade every X amount of years, just because we say so.
You will need to download patches every week, or else deal with viruses and trojans.
I like my PC's how I like my women - NAKED!
Something that looks like the M$ page, except it would describe how easy it is to take the donated computers, ditch the OS, and install Linux.
I'm still laughing about www.wehavethewayin.com, although it's only half as funny as the site it emulates www.wehavethewayout.com
Keeping the OS with the machine is the same thing as keeping those tags matresses. They are required to be on there if you are a company that sells matresses, but once an individual buys the matress, they can do whatever they like to the tag. It's their property at that point.
If they then give away or donate the matress, the lack of the tag really doesn't matter.
I'm really curious what law they are referring to when they saw "legal requirement". If they're going to say stuff like that, I'd like to see where it was written. Anyone can just say that something is "legally required". I can say it's "legally required" to mod all my posts up. That don't make it true, tho.
psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo
This might be a bit offtopic, but while we're talking about Windows "licenses":
If I were to sell or donate my PC to someone else and that PC has XP installed (which I activated using my name), what must I do to dissociate my name from that activated copy/serial number?
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
I've done work for about half a dozen schools (junior highs and high schools) that have quite substantial commitments to computers in the classroom.
;-)
In my experience, whenever donated computers arrive, that's all that arrives. I've never seen a computer arrive with the documentation that probably accompanied it when it was purchased by the donating company. All you get is the computer and associated peripherals if you're lucky (often they forget to send mice).
At one school, they have about 120 donated PCs, and I think there is maybe half a dozen valid Windows licenses in the whole place. Of course, there are numerous burned copies too, which makes imaging these machines really easy (thank you Norton Ghost).
I find it rather surprising that some enterprising person/persons haven't started to produce an educational Linux distribution... just pile on a lot of idiot proofing
I also found this statement hung in the air like a brick. It cannot be a legal requirement to include the "pre-installed" OS with the computer. Since, like a lot of people here, the first I do with a new box is wipe it and configure it the way I want it.
When donating a box, I would also wipe it beforehand, and make sure that all the OS materials (backup CD's, documentation, etc.) went with it. It's really up to the receiving institution to do something with it.
What this seems to suggest is that it's bound by law that you cannot modify a PC from its factory state.
"Stop whining!" - Arnold, as Mr. Kimble
Actually, it didn't work for Apple. They are still stuck in the education market, and that has not translated into any measurable difference in market penetration beyond their core graphics constituents.
Hey, Windows users, there is no such thing as "forward" slash, there is only slash and backslash.
From the archived NakedPC page:
"Acquire software from Authorized Microsoft OEM Product Distributors"
So, can I get Linux from my Authorized Microsoft OEM Product Distributor?
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
Your friendly sales person will tell you how much.
and remember, if you haven't been sending enough, penalties may apply.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
People, out of their good nature, give computers to schools to help educate children.
Microsoft lie to the schools to try to stop them accepting generous gifts that might make a tiny dent in their massive profits. This makes me so mad.
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
Is this true? Even for Microsoft operating systems? They're saying it's illegal to remove an OS from a computer, any computer? F*ck*ng w**kers.
PC owners have to transfer their license rights to the operating system to your school along with the PC. They may do so as specified in their End-User License Agreement (received at the time of purchase) as part of a permanent sale or transfer of the PC.
Listen Microsoft. You've made it very difficult so that I, as a PC purchaser, can buy a new PC without buying a Microsoft OS. You know that. So, 99% of computers that are donated to schools are likely to have a legitimate, paid for, Microsoft OS on them. You bunch of complete t*ss*rs.
The following should be included with the donation of the PC.
Why? I'll tell you why! To make it difficult for people to donate PCs to schools, that's why. I ***king hate those money grabbing, selfish, **bhe*ds at Microsoft.
Microsoft recommends that educational institutions only accept computer donations that are accompanied by proper operating system documentation. If the donor cannot provide this documentation, it is recommended that you decline the donated PC(s).
Why? So Microsoft can profit at the expense of the education of our children? You absolute ****ing *i*si*ng i*i*tic bunch of *uc*ing a**eh*les! *an** *a*s*** of the *i*** *rd***! You ****p** **s** **e*s*s!!!
Is microsoft making this part of their EULA? If I have an old PC that had Win95 installed 7 years ago, but since then has been replaced by Linux, and has served as my firewall and gateway for the past 5 years, what would happen if I donated this machine as is as the firewall for my local Leukemia Society? Can MS enforce this? Will they be reminding other organizations that there machines must have Windows on them? Will they not accept my donation unless it has windows?
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine.
So anyone that has bought a machine from an OEM and wipes the drive is breaking the law?
"And like that
Given: "It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC."
At what point in the nearly constant component part upgrade cycle my machines go thru, does the original machine cease to be? I have boxes that have only the case as the only remaining part of the original unit, and I have a (mostly) Dell thats in a generic case.
What constitutes a PC?
If I build my own PC and install Windows on it, I can give it to someone else and keep the copy of Windows as long as I remove it from the PC. This article implies that it is illegal for me to keep my copy of Windows if even if I give away the PC without it. If I install Linux, I can keep my copy and give away the PC with the OS still installed. Their statement is only true for pre-installed Windows (i.e. Dell installed it) where the license is tied to the particular PC.
All copies of the software on original disk or CD, including back-up and/or recovery materials
Manuals and printed materials
End-User License Agreement
Certificate(s) of Authenticity
This is misleading, and encourages institutions to only accept computers where these items all exist (i.e. MS operating systems). Such is not necessarily the case if, say for example, I installed Linux over the Internet.
Yes, once the machine and installed operating system is transferred to your school or institution you own the PC and the licensed software. You can upgrade via Microsoft Academic Licensing Programs...
Oddly, they neglect to mention that this also only applies to Microsoft software. What if the donated computer is a Mac?
These sorts of things are like Halloween documents that MS makes public INTENTIONALLY! You'd think they'd raise some eyebrows at the DOJ.
... "Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the w
Remember, Licenses need to be accepted. Any change in ownership does not automatically mean the receivingparty accepts Microsofts terms. Forcing this to the receiving party can never be upheld in court since when the receiving party does not accept the license, there is no agreement between microsoft and the receiving party. It also means the receiving party cannot use the particular instance of the software of course.
Also, statements like this are on the edgde of criminality. Since Microsoft's website upholds a certain level of authority, customers are thus officially receiving adivisories by microsoft. Where I live, this sort of advice (which is untrue in my country, and unclear at least), statements like these are misleading, which is an offense under the court that governs the laws here.
In other words, I could sue MS for publishing this advice.
what happens when you have replaced every single component in a pc, but you did it gradually, does the OEM licence not count anymore then??
Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
Now that I've calmed down, I've had an idea.
Why don't we set up a web site which tells schools how to accept donated PCs, but specify that if it does not come with all the necessary licences, the cheapest thing to do would be to install linux and free open source software packages on it?
Say that Microsoft might take legal action against you if you don't have the licences, so it's safer to install non-Microsoft software?
A. It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
*sigh* More Microsoft FUD. I don't remember that requirement being stated when I bought any PCs, I wouldn't have bought them if it was, and I doubt I'm bound by it now.
Let's face it, 50% of the pre-installed software doesn't last 5 minutes after I get it home (AOL, etc.) And after about 2 years, I've usually removed it all anyway and upgraded. I don't keep original install disks after that, they just clutter up the place. How could MS infringe on my right to use the computer in the very reasonable manner, when they themselves sell every kind of software updrade immaginable?
Sure, I can't go buy a copy of Windows XP, install it, then "donate" the computer but keep my purchase to install again. But that's not what MS is saying here. This article is just another bad PR story waiting to trip MS up. What are those guys thinking? Not much, is my guess.
If you want to donate a PC, my recomendation would be to erase the HD(s), then remove all the drives from the system. Then donate the parts to a school. Tell them it's parts, and you don't know where they came from. If the teachers can't put it back together, then I bet the students can.
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine.
Wow. I mean, wow. I can't believe they actually said that with a straight face. (Then again, maybe they didn't.) Using this logic, I could not donate my little e-machine to a school because it has Linux on it, and not Windows 98, which was the pre-installed OS.
MS is letting these groups know that, if they are planning to use whatever OS is on the machine when they receive the donation (and they probably are), then they should make sure they are getting the license for that OS. This is the kind of thing that businesses are very aware of, but the same isn't true of non-profits, schools, etc.
Yes, MS is trying to sell more copies of Windows, but it's also trying to keep good people from unknowingly breaking the law because of a sloppy donation.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
Q. Why should a donor include the operating system with their PC donation?
A. It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
Ok, that sounds pretty dubious, but let's accept it for the sake of argument. Now on to the contradiction:
Q. Can I upgrade the operating system on a donated machine?
A. Yes, once the machine and installed operating system is transferred to your school or institution you own the PC and the licensed software. You can upgrade via Microsoft Academic Licensing Programs: Microsoft School Agreement Subscription, Microsoft Campus Agreement Subscription, Microsoft Academic Open or Microsoft Academic Select. Contact your preferred Microsoft Authorized Education Reseller for details.
OK, so which is it? Does the school license the software on the used PC, or do they own it?
If they own it, what was the status of ownership by the donor, prior to the donation? Did the owner own it? If he owned it, then he does not have to transfer it with the PC, since it is his property to do with as he sees fit. If he did not own it, how come the school becomes the owner when they accept transfer of the license from the donor? Does this mean we can "launder" EULA's by donating each other the PCs we wish to buy? Seems like receiving a donated OS with a donated PC is the way to own the OS instead of just becoming a licensee.
Edith Keeler Must Die
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
Which law states this? A state law? Federal law? Decree of the UN?
What if I donate PCs that I built myself without an OS "installed"?
A "legal requirement" sounds very much like a scare tactic. If anything, you'd think they'd want the opposite - they'd want a school to get a bunch of PCs, but then REPURCHASE more Windows licenses 'just to be sure', upping MS' sales.
They pretty much get a sale for every PC in the US now anyway. I'd be interested to know what their license sales are per year vs the number of PCs sold that year. I've a hunch Windows license sales may be higher than PC sales.
creation science book
When I worked for the Navy we would only give PC's to schools once their disks had been completely erased. There was no protocol for handing down software either. All software HAD to be destroyed by CUTTING the media it came on.
I suppose that M$ would not approve of the fact that schools bought licenses of windows to run on boxes that would cost less off the shelf than a windows license...
"It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine"
"The following should be included with the donation of the PC.
All copies of the software on original disk or CD, including back-up and/or recovery materials"
So does this mean that in the event of your PC going horribly wrong (I mean it never happens to windows, but just say it did...) you might have to re-format and use your backup cd. in the time that you have no OS on your pc (because you just formatted the HD duh!) you are liable to be *BUSTED* by the powers that be?
I'm sorry, if my educational institution is site licensed for all the MS OS's we use, I'll take any machine thats useful, OEM OS with it or not.
Sounds good to me. MS is FORCING you to purchase a cheaper upgrade in lieu of just buying a more expensive non upgrade version should you want one.
Hold on.. so Windows sold on Ebay (e.g. transferring your licence to another user) gets Microsoft pissed enough to start demanding they be pulled off the listings, but giving your Windows copy to schools (e.g. transferring your licence to another user) is fine by them? Am I missing something?
slashdot!=valid HTML
Microsoft recommends that educational institutions only accept computer donations that are accompanied by proper operating system documentation. If the donor cannot provide this documentation, it is recommended that you decline the donated PC(s).
Says:
We like the idea of you donating, but we really don't want to donate ourselves. We do care, we really do. But remember an undocumented computer is worse than no computer.
-Sean
From the posts on here, I would say a YES :)
:) Dont licenses have to be CLEAR AND UNDERSTANDABLE? They obviously arnt meant for users to understand, lawyers only :D
It is open to many ways of interpreting this. MS's way, the lawyers way, the users way, the courts final say
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Using donated computers in the schools is a good-spirited idea, but it turns out it's not usually the most cost-effective way to get computing to the kids. My friends who have worked on the Yorktown High School LTSP project say that the cost of maintaining old PC's ends up being much greater than just getting thin clients for LTSP. (Those thin clients are really where LTSP saves money: Windoze requires overweight clients.) They say that by getting a set of homogenous thin clients they can maintain the hardware with a minimum of effort. The thin clients run longer because they have fewer parts, and they cost less to replace if they do break down. Finally, the expertise to maintain them is easier to obtain: once you know the quirks of one of the thin clients, you know them all.
Miko O'Sullivan
Is there the possibility of forming a lawsuit against Microsoft for all the FUD they spread?
Every time I see this stuff, I can feel the blood pulsing in my veins and arteries; certainly that cannot be healthy.
One of the things to include is the "Illegal Operation" error message. I have yet to find what law has been broken, or anything that might help me to find it.
I'm not trying to be funny. I don't know what laws would apply to this or how damages could be
determined, but certainly this kind of dishonesty must be illegal.
I'm further dismayed by this insofar as Microsoft is regarded as an exemplar of capitalism. I thought capitalism rewarded the ability to produce and honestly sell, not the ability to steal and defraud.
I am a landlord, and I own a two-family house. Recently online I found a guide written by a lawyer on how to be a landlord in my state. It is very well written, and one of the ideas that I got was this,
If you say that something is the law, and it isn't, the tenant can sue you for treble damages.
If you don't de-lead your house, and you let children under six live there, and you say to the tenant, "Oh, I'm exempt from de-leading because of this special provision / grandfather clause", then the tenant can sue you for misrepresenting the law.
So, I'm tempted to wonder if Microsoft can legally dole out legal advise that is prima facie incorrect and misleading. I would suggest the Microsoft's legal department take a look at the FUD for liability purposes.
If it can happen to me, it should be able to happen to Microsoft.
No, no, no. This is not a sig.
All this really is about is the carrot and the stick. If you take the carrot (Purchase their Volume License package for richer schools only!), then you don't have to worry about them whacking you with the stick! (The big bad BSA --Ooooh.)
People give all kinds of things to schools in all sorts of conditions. Microsoft is trying to get control of this process for their own profit at the expense of others (again)!
Microsoft loves control of this process for obvious reasons. There are licenses to be sold, and Linux or other free alternatives to be denied. If they call the ground rules, winning the fight is a lot easier.
For things like donated hardware, control of the process should be with those handling the stuff period. After all they are doing the work, they should be able to enjoy the reward. If this stuff is so valuable why not set up a few M$ Recycling centers?
There are lots of creative ways to use computers if you combine energetic students a net connection and a supply of hardware. Who knows what they will build? I for one am curious to see what it might be.
Following the advice in this "guide" (read nicely spun veiled threat!) they will be building exactly what Microsoft wants them to. Licensed profitable for Microsoft PCs. God forbid that these young bright childeren figure out what they could make that old hardware do with say BSD or Linux.
The whole thing is kind of silly really if you think about it some more. The schools do all the work, M$ does nothing yet makes more over time than the machines are worth with the volume contract. (Good for M$, but bad in general for the school.)
They do their readers a disservice by not mentioning the free alternatives avaliable. It is not just about their licenses, it is about free alternatives too. A school that reads this document probably has or is considering the volume license. By including that "legal requirement" (Which I seriously doubt is any sort of requirement at all) they marginalize free alternatives.
What scares them the most is that combination of bright students and the net connection. For the cost of the internet access, they can make all that hardware do good things. Kind of like that volume license without all the hassle. Since most schools are trying to spend a little as they can this option would seem attractive --provided they are aware of it.
Notice how this "guide" is structured to lead the user away from open alternatives and toward the pay per compute program.
This could use a response of sorts from the FSF or EFF pointing out the alternatives. You can bet that the educational resellers mentioned at the bottom are not going to be doing it. After all, they have a number to meet each quarter to get their MicroPerk of the month or whatever...
Blogging because I can...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Even if the specific software you received was actually free (because you're a CS student), your school is still almost certainly paying the Microsoft fee so that the general student population can get those titles for "free". In other words, there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Since you've got their software on your computer, microsoft has already "won you over". If I were you, I wouldn't put any of their crap on my hard drive unless you were forced to by a class.
Grumble, Grumble
Consider the following:
1) Take a machine install windows on it.
2) Take machine of #1 apart, evenly divide parts into two piles.
3) Put enough extra parts into each pile to make a complete machine.
4) Reassemble the 2 machines.
Now, which machine is the origional one? The one that got the hard drive, but not the processor? The one that got the floppy? Or have you just created 2 liscenses since each machine has equal claim to being the origional machine. This posture on the part of M$ is legally dubious, counter-productive and a total crock.
I have a question. A couple of years ago I purchased a computer with Windows NT preinstalled, and the first thing I did was reformat the hard drive and install Linux instead. I have purchased a new computer, and I would like to donate my old machine to a local high school's computer club.
I noticed on your website (http://www.microsoft.com/education/?id=DonatedCom puters) that you state,
"It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain
with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual
donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating
system that was installed on the PC."
I do not even have the backup disks that came with my computer. I deleted Windows as soon as I received the machine, implicitly rejecting your EULA. Moreover, the computer club wishes to run Linux on this machine.
Therefore, can I not donate the machine that I own to the computer club? As far as I can reason, by completely removing Windows from it and destroying the associated documentation I have removed any Microsoft-related control over this machine.
Please clarify this for me.
Sincerely,
Brian Poi
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I seem to require Microsoft EULA's forbidding sale, donation, or otherwise transfer of licenses to Microsoft software without express written permission from Microsoft.
I guess this means that if I want to give a PC away, I have to write Bill Gates a letter asking him mother-may-I.
Anyway, I think it's BS, and all the more reason why schools (and everyone else) should embrace Linux or BSD. It builds their brains, too!
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
No, they are just giving schools something bogus to be paranoid about.
Under the conditions they describe, the school still remains the legal and legitimate owner the of licenses involved. The only issue is documentation. For something like a Dell or Gateway, I don't think that this should even be an issue.
Simply argue that all Dells and Gateways come with licenses for Software X, Y and Z.
The only potential pirates here are the donors.
If you copy a Metallica CD and give your original to someone, keeping the dupe for yourself, YOU are the one that is committing piracy.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
If I delete the Windows OS from the HD and burn the original disks and install Linux, have I done something illegal? I don't think so. So this seems misleading or worse illegal.
Since you can throw away the original disks if you install say, Linux, wouldn't this document be misleading in a legal sense and thus be illegal?
**bhe*ds = nubheads
Actually it was nobheads. Perhaps that's not a word in the USA. It's quite common in the UK.
Hey, if what you say is true than the entire website is gratuitous. There is already an OS license associated with even BARE hardware since it was forced down everyone's throat.
Microsoft has no justification to direct propaganda and scare tactics at schools.
OTOH, the donors might be indulging in post-donation piracy. However, those issues are not addressed.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
wankers (not a bad word)
tossers (not a bad word)
may be not in the USA, but in the UK they are. They both are accusations that you masturbate, I believe. I believe you Americans say "jerkoff" or something like that.
What if I, purchaser of original said PC, never accepted the Windows license that came with it and promptly deleted the Windows software from the hard drive and destroyed the original disks. I can sell that hardware with out sending the license with it, because I never agreed to that license that states I must sell that license with the machine.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
You are in violation of the DMCA for decoding and dissemating what was obviously meant to be an encrypted post with protected contents.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
"Oh Flying Fucks! This little slashdot twerp has discovered how to legally dupe licenses. Authorize $10 million US for the hit squad, and tell them there is a 50% bonus if they prove he suffered before it was over...".
God, I love when you can apply Diablo bugs to real world law. And mama said I'd never learn anything of value playing video games...
Logically, I agree with you. OTOH, MS might be trying to discourage reuse of donated machines -- knowing that Windows pre-loaded systems don't usually ship with media. By doing so, they are more likely to get a new sale, either in the form of a boxed copy of Windows or on a new machine.
Anyway, who cares? If the OS license is somehow wrong or expired, then wouldn't this be an opportunity for the linux horde to march in? I don't see why this is bad.
Agreed. I'd like to see more native educational software -- like GCompris and others for young kids through teens. Baring that, Codeweavers and Transgaming should consider support for Windows programs under Wine. There are ways Windows programs can be installed using Wine that just aren't available or are prohibitive using Windows.
Example: Creating a VNC-style applet to embed in a web page -- webifying an existing Windows program: Signtopia's use of Wine to embed thier Windows app in a web page. Here's an excerpt;
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
These could be assembled into a computer which could be used to pirate software.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If you have x number of real licenses, you can install them on any five machines you choose, including the donated machines. Most manufacturers haven't been dumb enough to ship their servers with anything but a real license anyway, so they're probably transferable.
Microsoft is mentally fibbing a few places to come out with their little guide. I figure this is what MS had in mind when they wrote it.
1. That all PCs have Windows on them from the factory. This isn't exactly untrue for 98% of OEM machines; Even shipped with another OS, the OEM will send you the obligational Windows95 / 98 / ME / etc CD along as well, you've already paid for it in the price of the PC, as per their agreement with Microsoft.
Had a fight with a *ahem* rep once. Ordered a bunch of workstations that were to come with NT4 Workstation, but we specified a pre-arranged software loadout. We recieved the machines with a copy of 95 in every box. Called to return it, was told we had paid for them, that they were not allowed to ship any machine to any company without a paid-for OEM version of Windows, even those that already had licenses for other operating systems, even those that had to already prove we were licensed to install NT4 Server with impunity as part of the deal to get a custom loadout on an OEM system. They had reduced the price on the machines a bit when we had specified the custom load, but not because they weren't including Windows. Because we were going to pay for a cheaper version of Windows that would never see the light of day.
So we got 100 copies of Windows 95 tied to servers that were incapable of even running it. (SMP with a known nasty APIC bug that prevented it from running.)
2. That the computer will come with an operating system on it.
This is nearly patently false. No right-minded business or individual ever donates a PC without wiping it. Also, almost no profit-minded business reinstalls Windows on the machine before resale on the used market or donation. It isn't needed to verify that the machine works, it worked fine before software wipe. It takes time and money to reinstall. The Microsoft EULA is very fuzzy when it comes to transferring a license anyway, and you're not going to eat the potential legal liability of MS going wonky because they interpret the first acceptor of the EULA to be the OEM, the transferee to be you, the limited transferability to be valid, and especially when they think they have a right to march in to seize your equipment sans warrant.
3. That any machine that comes without an OS means a lost sale of Windows to the company that didn't include it. They're calling these people pirates, because if they didn't include it with the machine, they must have it installed illegally on other machines.
Most certainly false. Usually companies hooked on Microsoft products upgrade the OS once before they donate, if the hardware upgrade wasn't the direct effect of Microsoft telling them that they weren't going to be able to buy new Windows licenses of the old version these machines were indoubtably shipped with to keep with growth and replacements. They're being donated because they're three or four year old machines by the time they're donated and no longer able to run the OS Microsoft hawks on you to buy, saying you'll lose your Select/MCAS/MCVR status and be forced to buy individual licenses for retail price if you don't buy now.
Besides, how many of you are going to pirate the old OEM copies of Win98 from the donated machines and put them on the brand new PCs you bought? You know, the ones that came with XP on them? You know, the ones you had to buy because you have to buy XP because MS won't sell you Win98 anymore nor support it?
.sig: Now legally binding!
Someone with common sense. Yes, this is what they mean, to anyone who doesn't have their head in their ass. Their legalese is flawed, yes, but IANAL and that's a good thing.
Did you know...?
If your school has a Campus Agreement Subscription or a School Agreement Subscription, and you receive a donated computer with a properly licensed operating system, it's automatically covered by your agreement. That means you can install the Campus or School Agreement software on the donated computer at no extra cost.
The statement doesn't specify that the OS must be a Microsoft OS, but merely a licenced one. Seems to me that if I bought a PC with a Redhat license of some kind, then the statement they have made will apply. The requirement is that it should be properly licensed. There is no stipulation that it be licensed through Microsoft.
In West Virginia, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation just handed the state department of education 16 million dollars.
In return, the state board of ed sold out the public schools.
They handed down a memo saying that all students *must* take part in a questionaire administered by the teachers during school time. One teacher I know estimated that it would take 20 minutes per student, given that there are issues with reading ability at the age of the students being given the test.
This questionaire:
* Was given online. Teachers were required to have Internet Explorer (not "a browser", Internet Explorer) installed on all school computers used in this. Cute way for a monopolist to propogate their products.
* Involved asking students the number and type of products such as camcorders and computers they have at home. Many parents are not willing to give out this information, so building profiles of families by asking adults doesn't work very well. However, when students, children, are required to take an questionare like this by a teacher, they don't have much of a choice, though I suppose they could lie if their parents have taught them the importance of privacy. Microsoft was given the go-ahead to repeat this study two and four years from this point in time. All results get sent to Microsoft.
* Was given during school time. Taxpayers spend enormous amounts of money to pay for *children to be educated*. State laws are put in place to require students to be in school *to be educated*. These resources are supposed to go to education, not to (in my opinion, rather invasive) Microsoft marketing studies.
* Finally, MS made another coup for those 16 million dollars -- they were given a right to appoint a consultant to conduct overviews and approve or deny technology education curriculum. Now, it's possible that this consultant is a totally objective person who really *will* choose Linux or the Mac OS over Windows, or competing office/database products over MS's offerings if those things are better choices in a given scenerio. However, I rather doubt it. This is traditionally a large Apple market, but in one fell swoop, MS cut the legs out from Apple throughout the entire state.
I'm wondering whether this is just my state, or whether this is happening elsewhere. Anyone else hear about similar things in their own states? I could be a new Microsoft offensive against Apple, or just something that's been going on for a while, but I feel more than a little uncomfortable with it, and I doubt any letters I write are going to quite measure up to 16 million dollars in terms of legislators' decisions.
May we never see th
18 US 1001 (a) (3) CLEARLY states that Olinator must be put in a maximum security prison to be anally raped every night. This is actual legal advice. I am a lawyer. I really mean it. Oh, it also says you have to give me all your money :)
Oh, I'm SO going to jail for that lie.....
Someone once said, "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." Or if someone didn't say it, he should have.
Please, folks. This is not some nefarious Redmondian plot. It's simply a case of some middle-management MS trog going live with a website without running it by the legal department first. Had the MS legal eagles clapped eyes on this concoction before it debuted, there's no way that statement about "owning" licensed software ever would have seen the light of day.
This is just some Redmond lackey trying to explain the OEM OS license in public-speak and horribly mangling it in the process. This mysterious much-maligned Microsoft minion is not malicious, just misinformed.
Before we all get our undies in a bundle, I suggest everyone calm down, count to ten, wait a couple of days and then check the site again. I all but guarantee it will either be gone, or at least substantially reworded to conform much closer to legal realities.
Didn't any of you read the Terms of Use at the bottom of that page?
"PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE LIMITATION.
Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services obtained from the Services."
If I'm not mistaken, you guys have copied parts of that page and pasted it here. You are in soooo much trouble.
oh crap... I just pasted part of the TOU here...
The decision to accept or decline an offer of donated computers for your school can be complicated. There are many important questions to ask, including:
Is the computer crippled - ie. Does it have Windows installed?
How much admin overtime will you have to pay for the bugs to be sorted out so you can get these Windows machines working?
Will your teachers or students need counselling after they use Windows?
If you feel it is in the best interest of your school to accept the donated PCs, make sure that the hardware donation does not include Windows. Not using windows on a PC is not just a great benefit - it is your right.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
A. It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine.
Ah! Then spot-welding the Windows CD to the case will work just fine.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
MS might be referring to tax laws. When the donator deducts taxes, he/she's deducting the depreciated value of the machine. The depreciated value of the machine includes whatever software was included in the price of the pc.
Just a thought from a european without any knowledge of US tax laws.
Yeah, Lycoris isn't going to make the hard-core, Debian-based, Linx-loving /.'s hit parade. And maybe Mandrake is too friendly for our technical tastes.
... donated PCs may be yet another way of getting Linux in one door ... while shoving MSFT out the other ...
But I work with alot of charities, and I am more than pleased to get them up and running on nice little operating systems.
In light of this article
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
I'm seeing a lot of people who seem to be mistaking this as an attempt by Microsoft to get more money. They won't actually profit from this thing, what they are trying to do is extend their influence into the schools. It's directly related to their little stunt with the computer donations to schools. Remember when they said they would pay off the individual state anti-trust suits by donating computers to schools?
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
At my school we got quite a few computers from dirty employees that still had some 'pictures' and 'videos' containing things that would get us in trouble. I formatted the HDD instead of sifting and deleting each file (I've seen it all anyways.) Is this also a violation of the license?
Seriously Microsoft makes themselves look like asses and I'm glad we got resources like slashdot to expose their idiotic ways.
Microsoft starts out that page posing some really interesting questions:
Will the computer run the software that your school currently uses?
What is the cost of integrating the hardware into your existing networks?
Will your teachers or students need additional training to use the computer?
And then proceeds to totally ignore those three important topics and prattles warning schools about operating system licenses. What the feck? Makes me ill.
poor_boi
I can't hold my breath that long! I can't help but think that they are being intentionally vague. They have too much to gain from their FUD. The fact that they are giving what sounds like legal advice just scares me. If it was just stupidity, they certainly disguised it with lots of official sounding blah-diddy-blah.
If it's still there in a couple of days, can I get paranoid then?
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
Ok, first off, it doesn't say remain installed on the machine. The license (for that OEM version, and only that copy) is bound to the system.
Second, you have the right to terminate the EULA, destroy all copies of the OS and that's it, the contract is void.
Not only that but remember the great windows charity controversy - where they pointed the EULA saying windows licenses are not transferable from one person to another in order to scare charities into buying new copies of windows for PC's that were donated.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Yes, this is what happens when drug wars, open-ended wars in the Middle East, and corporate bailouts/handouts/tax-breaks take priority over education spending. Schools end up squeezed and have to go begging.
Simply requiring Internet Explorer seems odd, but since it's the default browser on both Windows and Mac OS I don't see the problem. It's not like the schools had to go out and *buy* the darn thing.
I agree, it's odious that students are being polled about their consumer behavior. I'm surprised this action is not illegal (not saying it is or isn't, but it seems like something normally proscribed). And I'm not sure I see the value in demographic information collected this way, it wouldn't seem to be very complete or reliable.
School time is wasted on millions of non-education related tasks, many wholeheartedly endorsed by taxpayers. Pledging allegiance to a piece of colored cloth. Disinformation about drug use. Abstinence pledges. Etc. In many cases the education value of the material is highly questionable, but the social agenda is clear.
$16 million may seem insignificant to Microsoft, but to a school district that's huge. My local school district (I'm a parent, not a student) is short about $30 million right now. Given the low impact IT decisions have on schools overall (except maybe as an expense item), I wouldn't be too opposed to some sort of quid pro quo in my own district. I'm not so worried about Microsoft products in the schools, the schools canoot be the vanguard in the fight for a new OS-- especially since that's traditional Apple territory. Frankly, I think it would be cheaper for Microsoft to obtain this demographic data by simply paying adults to participate in a good survey or two (or buying it from company's whose main business is demographic data-- since when is market research a core competency over at Microsoft?).
The worst aspect of this is the consultant role you mention. That seems to be a lock on Microsoft making sure that as much of that $16 million gets spent on Microsoft products.
Have I heard of this in my area? No. The schools here use Macs and if my daughter said they were using school time to take consumer surveys, everyone from the teacher to the school board would hear about it. That would be front-page news in one of the states taking the hardline against Microsoft in the anti-trust suits.
I do not have a signature
Y'all missed the point. What Microsoft is saying is that if you give away a PC that came with a Windows license originally, you have to give away that Windows license along with it; as a practical matter, this means that people won't be giving away PCs with Windows but no license, and trying to keep the license for another PC -- by doing it this way, Microsoft insures that people who DO upgrade have to make a conscious decision to buy a new Windows license, or not to buy one and run another OS instead.
Try it this way: Every machine running an unlicensed copy of Windows is a missed opportunity to have that machine running something else. If the school districts are given the Windows licenses with the machines and choose not to use the licenses (by running something else), even better!
MOO;IANAL.
There used to be a picture linked here.
Break the machine down into N parts and separate these N parts into N piles. Now add N-1 new parts to each pile so each can be built back into a new machine. Build each of the N piles into N machines. Of course you have exacly ONE license for Windows that came with the original machine. Now which machine inherits the license? The one with the CPU? The one with the first RAM stick? The one with the second RAM stick? The one with the hard drive? The one with the floppy drive? You see where I'm going with this.
A few years ago I bought an OEM copy of Windows 98 from a small computer dealer. In order to legally sell me the OEM version of Windows 98 (which cost them less than a retail box version, but was otherwise complete with CDs, product key, book, and the authenticity certificate) they had to sell it only with a CPU or a hard drive. I bought it with a hard drive, because I actually also needed a hard drive at the time. That hard drive (5 gig) has since died, and been replaced with a new larger hard drive (10 gig). I run Windows 98 on that new larger hard drive.
I could have bought Windows 98 with a CPU, so I was told. Or with a complete system (which I didn't care for, considering some of the junk that dealer was building their systems with). I prefer building my own machines, anyway. What this means is Microsoft is (or was then) rather non-specific about which hardware the license goes with.
It may be the case (and IANAL, otherwise I wouldn't be able to reveal this to you without shaking you down for a few hundred dollars) that it is simply a matter of making sure that exactly one and only one machine is associated with a license, so that it cannot be run on two or more machines. Microsoft may want to say no to that, in order to drive more full version sales (by claiming that under certain circumstances, the licensing rights vanish when a specific machine cannot be identified). I suspect if it went to court, the decision wouldn't really be motivated to driving up sales. Unfortunately, you'll be shaken down for a few thousand dollars or more just to get there.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Growing corporations rarely ever pay dividends to stock holders. The value of the stock rises on the perceived value the stock will have in the future (when dividends might be paid out) or in the near future (which someone else is willing to pay you more for the stock than what you paid for it recently, netting your a capital gains profit). While I do believe Microsoft is seeing a sales figure squeeze right now, I don't believe the fact that they have never paid dividends to mean anything. In fact I suspect that once they do start paying dividends, their stock price will stop climbing, and may even begin a long term trend downward compared to the rest of the market as this would be an indication their growth has peaked and the company is leveling out.
In addition to the basic level of economic recession that all sales figures are affected by, software is more vulnerable because its costs are easier to evade when the software can be installed on extra machines without obtaining the licensing terms to allow it. Without their efforts to make this hard to do in XP, certainly XP would majorly suffer from this. Earlier versions, such as Windows ME and Windows 98, can be multiply installed, and I'm certain a lot of this is taking place in deference to upgrading to XP, which is further hurting the XP sales figures.
Microsoft has a lot of marketing people working for it. There are whole departments intended for niche markets, many of which are even much smaller than the installed base of Linux, though probably represent a much large dollar figure than the consumer retail unit market. Every different department is individually pressured to work their sales figures up, or to keep them from falling too far. To that end expect each area of sales to be advancing some program intended to drive sales. They are simply not going to skip some area, because there are people in each department that are motivated to be seen as a sales producer to advance their careers.
No doubt, Microsoft is hurting. Some sales/marketing people who don't produce will end up hurting even more.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Is there some law that makes you a criminal if you miseducate the public about laws?
I seem to remember my Freshman Political Science Professor beating us (figuratively) about the head and shoulders for using terms without defining them. The Question: What is a computer? Before you can try to force someone to keep "Proof of autheniticy and EULA" documents with a computer, one should have to define what a computer is. Frankly, they act as if it is the case, based upon their new policy of having stickers for the serial numbers.
By the way, the issue in the federal courts would have been settled long ago if they would define what an Operating System is. Last time I checked, an OS is the core program (kernel) that manages computer resources and scheduling. Maybe the DOJ and the States should get Tannenbaum to testify and explain that Windows Media Player, (And the Desktop for that matter) are APPLICATIONS and NOT part of an Operating System, nor that they ever could be. And while we are at it, we should address the definition of a computer as a MODULAR platform that can be assembled from its component parts.
And by the way, perhaps schools should get in the habit of accepting donations of computer parts and avoid the whole discussion.
"I wasn't using my civil rights anyway...."
Mod that one up about +3(funny)
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
Suppose person P buys a computer with windows installed. Now maybe there is a contract between him and microsoft. But suppose person p gets rid of windows, and gives computer to school S. School S is in no contractual relationship with microsoft. They have no legal requirements not to take the computer. Also calling a contractual requirement a legal one is missleading.
All they're saying to schools is:
If you take a PC make sure you get any Licenses that come with it otherwise you might have an illegal copy of Widows on the machine.
It's not a big deal. Their wording is idiotic but the advice is sound.
MS does not give away their OS. If someone decides to donate a hundred PCs and load them up with Linux that's fine. What MS is trying to do is pretend that all PCs run Windows.
This
At least I'll never have to worry about it for my kids.
http://www.sepschool.org/
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
Please, folks. This is not some nefarious Redmondian plot. It's simply a case of some middle-management MS trog going live with a website without running it by the legal department first. Had the MS legal eagles clapped eyes on this concoction before it debuted, there's no way that statement about "owning" licensed software ever would have seen the light of day.
The same thing could be said of most of the provisions of the majority of the EULAs out there. Yet the language, which would probably never hold up in court, is included anyway simply because most recipients won't have the money to make a challenge. This is considered to be a perfectly acceptable tactic in business.
If you think MS lawyers would nix this you're sadly mistaken. MS can't lose here; they can make threats if they find a pc 'not in compliance' during an audit, but then fall back on the defense that their guidelines were 'misinterpretated' if it came down to a court case.
After all, the wording is beautifully vague yet the implications of that wording point in one direction for anyone reading it; no middle-management schlock could write something so elegant. It has to be the work of a lawyer, adroitly skirting the edges of contract law.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Please, folks. This is not some nefarious Redmondian plot. It's simply a case of some middle-management MS trog going live with a website without running it by the legal department first. Had the MS legal eagles clapped eyes on this concoction before it debuted, there's no way that statement about "owning" licensed software ever would have seen the light of day.
I would be willing to believe this, if it wasn't coming from the legal department of the same company that submitted a doctored videotape as evidence in their antitrust trial.
Microsoft has repeatedly demonstrated that they're not above bending the truth slightly when it's to their advantage, so I refuse to give them the benefit of the doubt in this case.
Oh sure, if enough people complain, they'll throw their hands up, say "Good heavens! What is this? Well, we'll take care of this right away" and set about trying to say the exact same thing ("you are legally required to sell your computer with the operating system it came with") in less inflammatory words.
Jay (=
(Who is glad that the two PCs he owns are self-made -- no worries about which operating system it came with!)
Sure, because all PC's come with either Microsoft Windows or MacOS burned into the hardware. It's not as though you have to pay for them (or access to Internet Explorer), right?
Hmm, as I remember it, a couple of courts have decided otherwise.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Strange maybe.... I don't know about the modified version of CDE. If you are talking about 4Dwm then we agree. Very few window managers are as well executed as that one is.
As for IRIX, it just works and works. (Suffering a bit of an application shortage at the moment tho.)
Blogging because I can...
I was referring specifically to the statement regarding "owning" the software. The EULA specifically, and with great emphasis, states you do NOT own the software -- you LICENSE it -- specifically so that MS retains control over it. As soon as an MS lawyer claps eyes on that all hell's gonna break loose in Redmond. There is no way in hell MS would ever admit you OWN their software. It would be the end of their business model.
The rest of your post I agree with.