Slashdot Mirror
RoadRunner Co-Opting "Organization" Headers
Dusty Rhodes writes: "AOL-Time Warner cable Internet Provider RoadRunner has begun co-opting the 'Organization' line of Usenet headers, replacing whatever information a user enters with 'Organization: Road Runner - (location).' All RoadRunner customers nationwide, including business customers, have had their organization identity hijacked with no disclosure whatsoever, much less an opt-in or even an opt-out. Nothing in their TOS or AUP. Nada."
I thought that Wil E. Coyote finally got him?
This is like the advertisement at the end of all Yahoo emails....the "Do You Yahoo" garbage.
While there may be ethical questions about this type of thing. They are your ISP and you are using THEIR machines, hence they may do as they wish. If you aren't happy, tuff beans, you can go to another ISP. It's like the orbs system. While I think it was a total nightmare sometimes, if a sys-admin wanted to run it and block a computer system from sending him mail, that's his business and he has everyright to do that. Just as I have every right to do what I want in my front lawn (including putting up signs which read "No Fjordboys or Females"), an ISP has every right (though perhaps not ehtical) to block others from sending mail to/from them, and do whatever they want to incoming/outgoing data.
My ISP's Usenet Server (NTL in the UK) is set up to add NNTP-Posting-Host: with your IP to every post. So much for Usenet being an anonymous media.
If this is the worst thing that happens to you today, you are doing pretty well. I'm sure you will get over it
Only an Acme rocket could stop this.
But seriously, it seems companies will try every/any invasive tactic once. Hopefully, this one blows over.
KARMA TAG! You're it.
Why are RR chnaging the Organization reference? What do they hope to achieve? The article hints at advertising but how many newsreaders display this line by default and how many people actually display full headers when reading their mail? And how many people would switch providers just because it was mentioned in an e-mail header?
I've got a fever and the only prescription is more COBOL.
The biggest reason I can see is to help cut down on spam. If people try spamming through RR, the recipient will KNOW it came from a RR server, and know where to complain. (Not sure how that HELPS RR, but it's a theory.)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
The ISP I used to work for did the same thing. I don't think anyone ever even noticed. The Organization header is purely decorative.
Argosoftis an awesome win32 one.
If they are blocking port 25 outbound, you can do what I used to do when the fuckers at earthlink did that. I setup a qmail/proxy machine at work running on port 5000 something and sent all my mail through that, hell if they are to the point of scanning the packets themselves you could always tunnel in as well. The problem is that the majority of people out there are screwed by this and do not have enough knowledge to take recourse against it.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
I've noticed this for a long time now. A lot of ISP's are doing that. I don't mind too much since my organization is "Crime" but it is a bit annoying yes. However if you want much better news service at not too much a year, try Newsguy. I used them back when I did a lot of usenet posting and for like $25/year (its gone up a bit since then) I was able to get non-binary access to all my favorite newsgroups. If you want access to binaries you have to pay a bit more, but the service is very customizable to fit your needs. They filtered out 95% of the spam and kept articles for a month, while roadrunner is lucky to keep them a week and seems to have cut corners on spam filtering. So I'd suggest if you are serious about usenet, buy your access (its less then $5/month for basic access) and get higher quality news feed with less spam and full control over those important headers.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
Companies aren't there to serve customers.
Companies are there to serve the owners/shareholders. Most of them just want to get the best return on investment they can.
Most people vote for "returns at any cost" with their money, and the companies act accordingly.
When is the last time you've heard people say "oh you can lose a few million this year, just be nice to everyone", until they put a dollar value on satisfied customers, they are going to continue to behave this way because WE make them.
And I don't really care how much RoadRunner screws with their customers, as long as they make money and build my retirement fund for me. Yes it is selfish, but I think that is the way it is.
there's absolutely no "rights" issue here. stop confusing rights with privileges.. you will only dilute this section further.
I've been fired for having an oganization header define as above
There is no innocence in the eyes of an evil man with power. Referring to Judge Roy A. Scoggins 378th District Court
Forty years ago a derby-winning salmon or lake trout was almost certainly a plug-caught fish. More and more anglers today are switching to J-Plugs? because, as in the past, plugs are known to produce more and larger fish on a regular basis.
There is a special J-Plug? finish available today which will fit any fishing situation, whether you're after salmon, lake trout, stripers, brown trout or other large game fish.
BASIC MINNOW IMAGE
Today's J-Plug? is even better-built and more effective than its predecessors as it's made of super-strong materials and designed for maximum action and strength. Another big difference is the availability of special J-Plug? finishes designed specifically for deep water trolling and low light conditions such as the special "Glo" patterns which pick up surface light and give it off down deep. [J-Plug]
J-Plugs? are fast-action, darting plugs ideally suited for trolling. They are effective because they project a basic minnow image in the water which all fish relate to in all water conditions. This is a basic, wounded minnow, fast darting action which comes from a combination of special swivel chain rigging and lure head chamber design. The precisely engineered tolerance between the rigging and head chamber allows the swivel chain to shift and reposition itself within the chamber. This constantly changes the plug's attitude and direction in the water and creates its fish-catching, erratic, darting action.
The swivel chain rigging also allows a direct rod to fish connection after the strike as the plug body will slide up the line, free of the chain and hook assembly and away from the fish. This eliminates head-shaking leverage against the plug body that causes many fish hooked with solid body-to-hook plugs to break free. Because the J-Plug? is buoyant and separates from the hook assembly, it will float to the surface where it can be retrieved in the case of a line break or bottom snag.
The J-Plug? is a trolling lure and can be fished successfully with a variety of techniques. Trolling is a most effective fishing method, particularly on big waters, as you can cover the greatest amount of water in the shortest time allowing you to locate concentrations of fish quickly and easily. Following are recommended J-Plug? trolling techniques.
FLATLINE:
With the surface or flatline technique, the plug is tied directly to 12- to 20-lb. test main line. No additional weights are used or, at most, a small 1/8- to 1/2-oz. keel-type sinker six feet up the line from the plug. The lure is let out behind your moving boat 50 to 100 feet (anglers fishing for lake trout or brown trout sometimes let out as much as 200 feet of line as these fish can be very skittish of the boat wake) and the troll started. This technique is effective when stripers, lake trout, salmon or brown trout are feeding near the schools of baitfish close to the top or when there is an obvious abundance of other surface activity.
SHALLOW/MEDIUM:
With the addition of a standard keel sinker four to six feet up the line from the J-Plug?, shallow to medium depths can be trolled effectively. Sinker weights, depending on the depth desired, for this kind of trolling usually run from 1 to 8 ounces with main line testing from 12 to 30 pounds. Note: Always attach a swivel chain-rigged keel sinker with the single swivel end knotted to your main line and the swivel chain end back to the plug. As in flatlining, let out 50 to 100 feet of line behind your moving boat and begin the troll.
DIVERS:
One effective way to get a plug deep without excessive lead weights, or if you don't have a downrigger, is with a diving sinker such as the Deep Six?, Pink Lady? or directional Dipsy Diver?. Standard rigging is with 4 to 6 feet of leader between plug and diver and 20- to 30-lb. test main line to your rod.
Set the diver to diving position, or in the case of the directional Dipsy? set both the depth and side angle desired, let out 50 to 100 feet of line behind your moving boat (slowly to ensure that no tangles occur) and begin the troll.
DOWNRIGGERS:
J-Plugs? often are fished off a downrigger, by themselves (the most popular way). With a downrigger you will be able to work all depths and will have the advantage of no weights between you and the fish once hooked. Anglers who troll J-Plugs? by themselves behind a downrigger often prefer 10 to 20 feet (some as much as 40 feet) between the line release and plug. The longer lengths add to the erratic, darting action of the plug.
Dodgers can be used as attractors in conjunction with a #3 J-Plug? behind a downrigger with good results. Size 0 or Size 1 Jensen Dodgers are recommended. Be sure to allow at least six feet of line between the dodger and downrigger line release so as not to inhibit the dodger's action. Allow 20 to 30 inches of leader between your plug and dodger (shorter leaders impart faster plug action and longer leaders slower action).
LARGE PLUGS / LARGE FISH
Larger fish do prefer large plugs. Big fish will spend the least amount of energy necessary to catch a meal . . . larger baitfish mean less energy expended to fill up. So, if you're after big salmon or lake trout, use the larger J-Plugs?. But, remember that smaller fish often will not attack a large plug so the use of larger plugs, although great for big fish, may prevent you from catching smaller ones.
Standard J-Plugs? are popular because they are especially effective in deep water trolling situations, although, as indicated, they may be successfully used in medium or shallow water as well. The J-Plug? features a basic minnow design with a darting, erratic, free-swimming action which all fish relate to. These plugs are easy to fish, require no tuning and the direct hook-to-rod connection prevents fish from obtaining leverage against the plug, resulting in more landed fish per number of strikes. J-Plugs? also come in a variety of sizes and finishes (rattle models are available) to fit every fishing situation and are versatile as they can be trolled either fast or slow, depending on the fish species you're after.
Some other features and additional tips on fishing and using J-Plugs? include: Keep them either in the water or in your tackle box. Extreme heat can deform a plug's shape and direct sunlight can cause the finish to fade. Before placing your plug in the water, check the swivel chain dacron harness for wear and to ensure the knot is cinched tight. If the harness need replacing you may obtain one from a dealer. The dacron harness is 80-lb. test doubled. The hooks that come with the harness are high quality, 4X strong and plated to resist corrosion.
J-PLUG? FINISHES / COLORS
One of the big reasons today's J-Plugs? are effective is because of the wide variety of finishes and colors available . . . one to fit every angling situation. Following is a rundown on a few of the more popular finishes and what each represents and accomplishes in the water.
METALLIC: Highly reflective metallic finishes match the flash and colors of baitfish. Silver, Silver Cut Plug and Silver/Blue Top feature the reflective look of baitfish.
GLO: J-Plugs? are offered in Glo/Blue Top Ladderback and Glo/Florescent Green Top Ladderback finishes. These are designed specifically for deep water trolling because they contain phosphor pigments that give off light down deep. Note that these finishes contain light-sensitive pigments that can be burned and which will turn gray if exposed to strong, direct sunlight. It's best to keep plugs painted with Glo finishes either in the water fishing or stored away in your tackle box so overexposure doesn't occur. For a quick and easy "glo charge" try Luhr-Jensen's handy Power Flash unit which can double as a camera flash attachment.
SPARKLE: Several new sparkle extra-attractive sparkle finishes are now available on J-Plugs?. These include Sparkle Chartreuse/Fire Tiger, Sparkle Chartreuse/Green Tiger, Sparkle Mother-Of-Pearl and Sparkle Fire Tiger. These highly-reflective finishes provide additional strike-enticing action.
J-PLUG? TROLLING TIPS
Those are several of the tips and techniques which will help you successfully fish J-Plugs? in your favorite waters and for your favorite fish species. Remember to experiment, troll zig-zag patterns or otherwise constantly change the plug's action, Keep hooks sticky sharp and go prepared with a variety of finishes and sizes . . . there's a J-Plug? for every fishing situation.
a/s/l here. Sorry, adding domain tags to your s
It would be nice if I could the article. The page comes up blank here under Nutscrape 4.79.
Arrggghhh. I hate sites that don't use standard HTML. This page has a f*cked table setup (as normal...)
BWP
Let's say I post something to Usenet trolling, blasting Microsoft and making wild accusations against them. However, my "Organization" is "RoadRunner." While it may not mean anything legally, doesn't that at least partially imply that I'm speaking on behalf of RoadRunner, and, thus, making it seem like RoadRunner's official corporate stance is whatever nonsense I just accused Microsoft of?
For example, if you work at IBM (arbitrarily chosen company), and routinely send out mail voicing *your* opinion, you'll likely have something to the effect of "These opinions are my own, and not that IBM," so that people don't twist mail you send to your friend into IBM's official position on the issue.
Again, I don't know if this carries any legal weight, but I think RoadRunner is getting themselves into more than they bargained for. (Picture swarms of angry people blaming RoadRunner for whatever their customers post.)
________________________________________________
suwain_2
Not to pour water on a good conspiracy theory, but are people sure this isn't just a misconfigured nnrpd.conf (or equivalent)? It's pretty easy to do; many nntp sites already add an Organization line if there isn't one present -- all it would take is for some admin to foul up a config line.
Not to downplay the significance of companies doing stuff like this, but this may be unintentional. The article doesn't look like it's double-checked the motive.
Ah, computer dating -- it's like pimping, but you rarely have to use the phrase "upside your head" -- Bender
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a perfectly correct implementation of organization? Whose NNTP server was used? Roadrunner's server. Whose name should be listed under organization, well I can make a strong argument for roadrunner. I fail to see what harm this does to the consumer, and more importantly what "right" is lost. Most clients don't display the header by defualt. It might help someone report spam. The only downside is if you used public usenet to reply to support postings, and wanted to look profesional, and then a private server would be a much more sensible solution(no propagation time, complete control, etc.)
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.
Just as I have every right to do what I want in my front lawn (including putting up signs which read "No Fjordboys or Females")
You have the right to put a sign on your lawn which says "No Fjordboys or Females", but the moment you open up your house as a place of business, you can no longer do this. Once its a place of business, you have to abide by certain rules. As such, putting that sign up would be discimination, see civil rights. Its the same way that there is no smoking in any public place in California, even a Tobaco shop. This doesn't mean you can't smoke in your house, but once you open up your house to the public, you have to stop.
No parking cars on your lawn
The bottom line here is that, if like the article says, there is nothing in the ToS that guarantees that this wont happen (I start to twitch if I actually read ToS or EULA documents) then I'd say you're at the mercy of the owner of the servers that you use. When I load slashdot, it gives me slashdot content. When I send mail through my ISPs SMTP servers, it adds a header. While the co-opting aspect of this is disturbing, the bottom line is that if you don't like it, run your own NNTP server, or simply use Google Groups or any other alternative news service that delivers what you want, in the way you want it. A lot of people seem to think that Roadrunner is going to get in trouble for this. I just don't see that happenning. I can't even conceive of a way that this could be illegal. But I'm not a lawyer ;)
This too shall pass.
Michael Schumacher and Ferrari are a disgrace to Formula 1 motor racing.
For those clueless people out there (American, in other words). The Ferrari team just blatantly fixed a Formula 1 motor race to allow Michael Schumacher to beat his team mate - it just confirms what people already suspect. Michael Schumacher is a fraud... and he has a contract with Ferrari that prevents his team mate from beating him.
SO FUCK SCHUMACHER AND FUCK FERRARI... AND FUCK FORMULA 1 FOR ALLOWING THIS KIND OF BULLSHIT
They are your ISP and you are using THEIR machines, hence they can do as they wish.
Prostate yourself before thine ISP master, for you are using their machines! Thine fifty dollars a month is not a payment for service but a sacrifice to your Gods in hopes of blessing!
Thoust does not question blessed gifts from thine ISP!"
Roadrunner is outsourcing the nntp product.
I wonder how RoadRunner would feel if some unscrupulous person put Roadrunners email addresses in their reply fields for the spambots to harvest? Gee, I hope no one does that. That would be just awful. Roadrunner receiving tons of unsolicited mail because someone changed some information that they were not asked to. The horror...the horror....
Welcome to Moron's Club. Have a seat over there next to the guy dressed like a chicken.
This and the NNTP-Posting Host are to help track down abusers. No shock there.
You guys have no idea how much abouse there is of the usenet system - this is to track and assist with blocks.
Giant Canadian moose cock?? uhhh, yeah...
RoadRunner Co-opts User Identities
AOL-Time Warner cable Internet Provider RoadRunner has begun co-opting the "Organization" line of Usenet headers, replacing whatever information a user enters with "Organization: Road Runner - (location)."
All RoadRunner customers nationwide, including business customers, have apparently had their organization identity hijacked by with no disclosure whatsoever, much less an opt-in or even an opt-out. Nothing in their TOS or AUP. Nada.
Traditionally users have always had the option of setting their own "Organization" header, their company, for example, or simply leaving it blank. The only exceptions have been the mostly free Web-based Usenet interfaces and other promotional providers who sometimes add headers or signatures, but to my knowledge, all of them disclose this to users up front.
The local Austin techie rumor mill has it that the order came down from RoadRunner corporate headquarters and possibly directly from AOL-Time Warner. News admins in all RR service areas were ordered to make the change.
When I asked RoadRunner about the change the other day, mailing to help, PR and abuse desk addresses, I received only their standard "piss off and die" brush-off form letter requesting info neither relevant nor extant. A local Time-Warner spokesperson reached late Friday said she knew nothing of the practice or any change of policy and declined further comment. Attempts to reach T-W and RR corporate offices went unanswered.
Folks, this sucks giant Canadian moose cock. If RoadRunner wants you to advertise for them, they ought to pay you. If the don't pay you, they have no right to steal a part of your online identity that is yours by right and long standing precedent. Tell 'em you want it back.
If you're a RR customer, or just a concerned Netizen, take a minute and let them know how you feel about this issue, preferably by phone, as they just ignore e-mails. As my great grandmother used to say, "There is some shit which up with I simply shall not put."
Cheers,
Dusty
12:52:10 AM
The problem is that it business users (who obviously pay more for their access) have also had their organization fields co-opted by Roadrunner. As you said, it is very difficult to look professional when your postings state that you are from roadrunner.
It isn't that this particular idea is any good, it is quite dumb IMO.
It is that they should continuously be trying to make more, and improve somehow. Advertising is a good idea, and really rewriting a header doesn't take any CPU load compared to everything else.
to put their name on your post. As if they owned it or something.
That's an interesting thought. By doing this are they claiming some sort of ownership to your post and thus become liable for things in the said post?
TIMOFY IS GAYNATION!!!!@!@!
m l:
Read on for PROOF!!!
From http://www.monkey.org/~timothy/dreams.20020303.ht
20020302tn_dream
Dreamed I was at a banquet or a large, crowded (but not overloud) family style restaurant with an attractive female friend and her very jealous boyfriend. He kept trying to stare me down or something, which was annoying but amusing, because though I found her attractive in the abstract, I was not interested at all in stealing his girlfriend. At first I thought it was funny to watch his reactions to anything I would say, any friendly gesture I made toward her, but then it got tiresome, and I wished he would just go away for a while.
Here we have another one of Timmeh's fantasy gaydreams. The setting here (a loud family-style restaurant) indickates his feelings of brotherhood with fellow members of the gayballs community. Now take the line "..I was not interested at all in stealing his girlfriend.". This doesn't need any explanation, I think it speaks for itself. The passage following (At first I thought it was funny to watch his reactions to anything...) is Timmy dreaming about how he's teasing his assprey, luring him in for the kill.
When is the last time you've heard people say "oh you can lose a few million this year, just be nice to everyone"
Explain how *NOT* swapping the Organization header would lose them money? They are changing something that they didn't do previously - at best, they may speculatively make a bit more money. It certainly cost them something to do this (maybe only $50 to have someone change something on their NNTP software, and maybe another $100,000 in executive salaries to have meetings about it) but it's at best an unknown amount of money they may generate because of this.
I'd have thought it would have made more sense to add an extra X-header, or tack on RoadRunner at the end of the existing X-header info.
X-Organization: Joe's Place (via RoadRunner)
or something similar. To just replace it full stop is strange, to say the least.
My theory is they are doing this because of the way search engines archive news postings has a ranking on what posts contains links to what URLs and names, this will make RoadRunner appear much more 'popular' in services like google and teoma. However, this will also have a detrimental search engine effect on the very customers RR is supposedly serving, and should cause them to leave (at least a few who realize what's going on). Again, if this is the case, is it worth losing a few customers to potentially gain more (short v long term)? Probably.
creation science book
Well I think that the slightly lesser profit with happy customers is a better company, they will likely stick around, and their profit won't evaporate once a "nicer" company shows up.
It will really get their attention if someone shows up at a shareholder meeting with a list of stupid things the company has done to piss off customers with no benefit to the bottom line.
For the last year (probably even longer) I have noticed RR putting Road Runner in the Organization field on the header. I've never seen them put the actual city name however in the header. This is not late breaking news.
I can't beleive this made the front page on slashdot. First of all the story is false (at least in the upstate New York RR service) second, what's the big deal? For me, I use my full name when posting to newsgroups. Plus with RR you get a fairly static IP address (mine hasn't changed in the last year), how can you be anonymous with that?
I have not really used them, so I can't say much about them. But it may be worth checking out.
Have you read my journal today?
Doesn't this make it harder for RR "customers" to send out Usenet spam with totally forged headers and remain undetected?
Isn't this a Good Thing for everyone?
In particular it's a Good Thing for all RR customers who don't spam, as it means that other ISPs won't be denying connectivity to RR because of spam.
What have I misunderstood here?
regarding the optional "Organization" header:
"The text of this line is a short phrase describing the organization to which the sender belongs, or to which the machine belongs. The intent of this line is to help identify the person posting the message, since host names are often cryptic enough to make it hard to recognize the organization by the electronic address."
Since "machine" isn't defined within the RFC, I think there's some latitude to allow Roadrunners practice.
(BTW, aren't they owned by AT&T now?)
Just add "For the best in Kiddie Porn and Pipe Bomb Contruction please
follow the link found in the organization header"
Then thank roadrunner for shielding you from the wrath of the government.
That ought to get their attention.
Then specify your own header.
Usenet never was an "anonymous media". Set up a proxy with your friends or use some other obfuscator. I prefer http://groups.google.com.
Even if you do specify your own header, RR still overwrites it.
The guys who run RoadRunner mail hosts seem to be a bit out of it when it comes to how "the Internet" works. Sure, they can figure out some of the stuff, but they get clueless really fast.
For example: They used to have the "From:" header screwed up. When you sent some mail, it said that the sender was "username at the machine that handled all of the mail for the area," not "username at the real address." So for six months or so, when some folks tried to reply to my RR address, their replies bounced. I had to add a "Reply-to" line just to get mail back.
Then run your own NNTP server.
Why not accept a photocopy of some other identification, such as your passport, for example? The whole credit card scheme is a damn scam!
check uk.telecom and uk.telecom.mobile, uk isps have been doing it for donkeys years
The bottom line is that from the Internet's point of view, your ISP and network provider is RoadRunner, so it makes perfect sense to label you as being part of that "organization" in this context. It is both within the letter and spirit of NNTP. To allow you to use your own vanity Organization header would only add confusion and defeats the spirit of the header.
I think the real issues here are obvious. There may in fact be some "grey" area as to what they do or do not do for you as an ISP. The BIG thing is that "they did it behind your back..."
Without properly notifying their users what they were going to do, they leave themselves open to abuse of service. Imagine the phone company decides to change all the area codes in one district from 347 to 342 because they "needed" to expand the area. Now technically, they are allowed to do that; it's understood that the use of phones have increased over the years and maybe some people do need to be moved over to the new area code. But the important thing is that "THEY TELL PEOPLE!"
No one needs to listen but it is essential for a business to notify users. If a user has been forewarned, he indeed has the option to leave the ISP but at least he is given advanced notice so that he can make arrangements to leave without having to have his/her business arrangement changed.
There will be no ramification until they get their asses sued when somebody using their service gets so bold as to criticize a pet shop. Then the rabid owner will sue everyone in sight, including them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a perfectly correct implementation of organization? Whose NNTP server was used?
This header predates NNTP
Ok, I'm a RoadRunner customer. I read this and immediately went out to check my posts. Nope, didn't see the text added in any of them. Even posted a new post and still no text.
So, either it's not happening in all areas are this yet another bogus "It was posted on the web so it has to be true" story.
"Since when has RoadRunner allowed you to run servers?"
An NNTP server does not have to be accessible from outside your network. Lots of people run servers such as leafnode (I use cnews) for convenient off-line news reading. RR cannot tell whether an article is being posted by a server or a client. They will still overwrite the "Organization" line, though.
As another poster suggested, sign up with Newsguy.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
The biggest reason I can see is to help cut down on spam. If people try spamming through RR, the recipient will KNOW it came from a RR server, and know where to complain.
But they could just as easily add something like "X-Complaints-To:" or "X-ISP:", etc. Rather than deciding that RFC 850 dosn't quite apply to them. The header is for identification of the poster's organisation. Rather than whatever ISP their employer may use...
If this were happening to me, I'd change my netnews .sigfile to read
--
If the Organization line on this post says 'RoadRunner', then the opinions expressed here are the official opinions of 'RoadRunner'. They put their name on them, they must approve.
But think about it logically. You may read USENET postings from anywhere on the Net, but you are posting from their server. In this sense, the tagging of the Organization line with their information seems quite proper. Maybe to qualify for your own Organization tag, you need to run your own qualified NNTP server.
And then there is a really damn good reason for doing this. Putting their information on that header also correctly indicates the source of the posting, so it is a valuable tool for tracing a culprit of USENET spam, a task for which I would gladly grant the ISP's the use of that silly header.
Since I added a Perl script to remove Yahoo crap from email to my .procmailrc I haven't seen them again. Still wastes my bandwidth, but no disk space at least
Businesses can. That's why they pay more. I get free business class DSL from my employer and can run servers and have a public IP.
RR here in columbus(OH) has been doing that to me for atleast a year now. Yes, it sucks but I AM using their servers so they can do what they want. I'm not going back to dialup because of it, and most/all DSL providers here are overpriced for alittle 128k pipe. I wish RR would go back to the way they where about 2-3 years ago(before AOL). Damn i was in heaven; stabilty, speed, damn nice price.. fsckin AOL!!
A good sized business will run their own NNTP server anyway and have a real business ISP. But how many small businesses actually use nntp? For what except spamming newsgroups with penile enlargememt ads?
...so I pay Cox/RR $60 per month for residential Internet access. I am not happy with the packet loss, the slow-downs, the upstream choke, their blocking ports without notice, and this latest degradation in service with no commensurate reduction in charges.
To be honest, I don't know anyone who is happy with their service. In this area though, they are often the only choice, so we put up with it.
I wonder if some sort of copyright notice could be appended to ones posts allowing their reproduction, but explicitly prohibiting the alteration of headers.
I doubt it would stand up to any sort of court challange, but people screaming about copyright infringement always seem to get lots of attention, possably drawing enough attention to this to embarass RR.
Simple, set a limit on how many messages can be sent from an account. If someone has a legit need for a mailing list for instance than their limit can be raised. Require the person to sign an agreement that states clearly that they can now use the system for spam, at a price of 500 dollars per email. For every message have the smtp server look for typical spam related signs like forged headers, javascript, etc and flag them for human inspection. Charge accordingly.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Roadrunner doesn't let you run your own server when it costs $599 for a static ip? Nah, they let you Truthfully thier prices are horrible, esp. when they really can't offer substantially more QOS then home service.
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.
And the RFC for NNTP says that this is an appropriate use of that header for NNTP traffic. Where the header originally came from is irrelevant.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
is that an area code change changes the functionality of yourphone service, if you are not advised. How does adding a tag to your Usenet posts alter their functionality?
Make your silly case when the topic/s are the headers: NNTP-Posting-Host, X-Trace, X-Complaints-To.
All concerned RoadRunner customers should change their organization name to "is a sh*tty ISP."
What most people here want is an "(Internet Service) Provider"...someone who gives them a pipe with some IP addresses, and possibly provides DNS, SMTP, POP/IMAP, and NNTP servers, and maybe throws in some web space, and then pretty much gets out of the way.
I think it's real sporting of them. By identifying themselves as the organization responsible for the messages (not mereley the source of the messages), do they not open themselves to legal action? Shielding their customers, who are small-fry (anything other than AOL/TW, including most countries) by definition.
Seriously, this has all the hallmarks of (rather clever) disgruntled employee sabotage. How much attention do you think the higher-ups at rr even pay to their UseNET service? How closely do you think it is monitered? I'm betting very little and not-at-all. It could be weeks before they really notice/understand, even now.
If I still had UseNET flamewars^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdiscussions, I'd be really pissed; I have roadrunner.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
First, financially, this does not make sense for RoadRunner. Assuming that they are a publicly traded company, which may not be the case, one of the items on their balance sheet is "Customer Good Will". This contributes to the bottom line, and reflects the customer's opinion on the value the company has. Part of the reason for this line item is that your customers are the best advertising you could possibly have. A thousand customers telling others "I use RoadRunner, and I like it." is far more effective for bringing in customers from other ISPs than any cartoon figure on a billboard.
Upsetting your customers by arbitrarily altring things the customer has set up is not good for your buisness. It will show up in the press when some upset customer discovers the situation, and people who are not customers will start asking customer "Why do you use a service that co-opts your creation?"
Except in rare instances, the machine where the message is created, is not the RoadRunner server. The machine where the message was created is the machine that the Organization header is designed to help identify. UseNet pre-dates the Internet and NNTP. Very early users may have had what is called a Bang path. The Bang Path was a list of UUCP hosts that had handled the article. If you were a student or taught at a university, and you posted to UseNet, your article may cross over several different gateways on it's way to some reader. Attempting to identify where the message came from via the path information was often quite difficult. As a result the "Organization" header was created. If you worked off of a VAX box, or other timeshare type system, your system administrator would set the Organization header for you, and it would reflect the University you were at.
Likewise if you are working for XYZ.Corp, your Organization header should reflect that. It is not advertizing for your company, it simply reflects that the machine you posted from is company property.
Home users present a different situation, in that most people do not run businesses from their homes, though they very well could. As a result, the "Organization" header is a bit less meaningful. In fact it is not unusual for people to put things like "Organization: Lost!" or "Organization: Chaos" as their Organization header. This does nothing to identify the host machine, but does say something about the poster.
In any case, RR does not appear to have universally made this change. Frome earlier posts I gather that there is at least one city that does not yet do this. That may have been an oversight on RR's part, or they may have set it up that way so that when it becomes overwellmed with postings they can see the error in their ways.
I am not sure about the issue of what happens when you run a NNTP server of your own. cnews is considered a server, yet from what I read articles originating on a cnews connected host appear to be having their Organization header co-opted as well. I am not sure if this behaviour extends to other NNTP capable servers as well.
Going to an outside host for your UseNet News is always an option. It may not be an easy option, you may have to set up a UUCP host to host process to do so, but it can be done.
-Rusty
You never know...
this certainly puts a damper on any refusal to act as a channel for mega-corporation advertisement. it's like paying lots of money to wear a Nike t-shirt, and not being given the option to turn it inside-out. privacy concerns are also raised, in addition to this question: does ATT really want to be associated with everything their subscribers post?
"lolita bestality, see my daughter home alone with the dog!!!", now brought to you by AT&T broadband internet's New Jersey residential subscribers. ummm... thanks, RoadRunner, heh
"Life is great; without it, you'd be dead." -Harmony Korine
I still dont see why this is a problem. Email headers contain a list of the ISP's servers if you use them, how is this any different?
At least you can get access to nntp
Does this apply only to the RR usenet servers? Or does this apply to ANY usenet server that a RR customer is using?
Big difference. IF RR owns the server and provides it as part of a package, yes it might suck, but its their server and if they want to alter information, I suppose its their right to do so. You don't HAVE to use it. In fact, most ISP based newsservers suck anyways. It wouldn't be a great loss.
A lot of companies do things behind the scenes without putting into their terms of service. A great many isps will run httpd traffic through a cacheing proxy to either save on upstream bandwidth or to record information. One of these schemes makes perfect sense, the other is slimy.
Ok, so they're changing your organization field. Whether this matters or not, you know about it now. If its a problem, use a different news server. However, if they're hijacking nttp packets and "fixing" that information, then you have a BIG problem. At NO point should ANY information I send out be modified. If they want to play games to save bandwidth, fine. But I better get the exact data I request, and the other end better get the same data I send, with no
modifications. THAT would be entering into the realm of arbitrary censorship without permission.
They might STILL be within their rights to do that, but if I were a customer of theirs, I would start shopping around.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
I used to post with my real name, didn't like handles. And was a staunch supporter of real names in the BBS days. Then google loaded 10 years of searchable news and I'm not sure it's such a good idea anymore.
I'll state my opinions and stand behind them, but 10 years from now some prospective employer could be doing google searches to get background info on me. I'm not sure I want those opinions taken out of context.
For instance, I did a search on google groups of my own name, found a message attributed to me (that I had replied to). It was less than flattering and incorrect. The original poster was being an ass, I replied and (diplomatically) stated that, then a third party replied, cut my comments and attributed the original to me.
Since then, I avoid putting my full name in my headers.
It is obvious that so many posters don't even think for two seconds
,
before they press "submit". Was it Socrates who said "don't let the
mind move slower than your inclinations" ?
Our issue is whether just because someone posted on the comp.amiga
or politics.clinton.blowjobs newsgroups from a Microsoft address
the audience will think that his writings reflect the views of
Microsoft. Most unlikely!
The poster has to at have a name like bill.gates@microsoft.com, or
at least write his official company title under his name (at least
VP or above) for a reasonable person to begin to suspect that the
views expressed are actually those of Microsoft. And if the thread
of the newsgroup concerned was "Life of Mars" or "Infant spiders in Kongo"
I further doubt that a reasonable person will think that even Bill Gates
views on such subjects are automatically those of Microsoft. Common
sense says that since Microsoft has nothing to do with spiders or
Clinton blowjobs, the views expressed are only of Bill Gates.
Now the KEWL line that I put that says "Organization: none" in my usenet posts will not be read by the 1-2 people who still read usenet! IMMINENT DEATH OF USENET PREDICTED!
prohibiting alteration from when? By merely sending it, the headers are altered by each and every server that recieves the message. If you post via, say, Earthlink, you'll see different headers reading it via Earthlink than you will reading it via AT&T, which will be different than reading it via RR...
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Now I'll know which messages to filter out.
This could just be a simple misconfiguration. Every news server I've ever used will insert a company-identifying Org line if I leave my own custom line out (just like they'll insert a message-ID and a date for you if you leave those blank). Maybe they just misconfigured it to always override (which I know is possible for both the message-ID and date fields).
Now why don't we start complaining because someone wanted to set their Message-ID to "i.rox0r@my-31337-box0r" and big bad AOL changed it to "2130874653240873215@nntp.aol.com" ?
Hey, I didn't say my theory was right, I just said it was a theory... :-)
Yes, that's what X-Complains is for, and RR does, in fact, use that field. I don't honestly know why they're pushing the organization through..
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
I can't stand their usenet servers, they have shitty retention if you can even connect to them, and 75% of the time you try to opn up a newsgroup and the damn thing times out, saying you can't have more then 3 connections running at the same time. I rue the day I switched from DSL. I switched to Cable so I COULD GET massive downloads from a news server alt.binaries.vcd, alt.binaries.movies.divx, etc. Now I've got an ISP where I can get super fast downloads, but I can't find anythign I really want. Thanks alot Road Runner.
What's the big deal? Come on, lots of companies do stuff like this. Viral marketing works a lot better than full blown ad campaign. Look at Yahoo and Hotmail's mail service. At the bottom of every email they have a "Get your free email account at Yahoo.com" or "Get your free email account at Hotmail.com" Why don't people make a big deal about that? You use their service, you have to deal with those types of things. They could easily not provide a free nntp service to you, but they do as part of your service plan. If you want to use another service, there are plenty on the net.
_______________________________
"I'm not Conceited...I'm just a realist..."
Well actually I didn't invest in MS, they have a PE of over 40. They have little real room for expansion in their core business. They break the law, they ideally should be punished. They make a substandard product. Other then existing market share, and name recognition they have no real protection against competition. I didn't invest in them.
I think a good well run business with happy customers is a great idea, and that is what I invest in, not just the S&P 500.
By doing this are they claiming some sort of ownership to your post and thus become liable for things in the said post?.
That was my first thought. IIWEAL (If I were a Lawyer) whose clients were wronged on usenet, I would now have some deep pockets to sue. They are implicitly claiming to be more than a neutral communications medium. They can't have it both ways.
Why on earth are you complaining? Your 4-year-old browser technology can't keep up with modern HTML? Download and use something newer.
this one interested me, as I've been a RoadRunner customer for nearly 3 years now...
so I did a test message to myself. upon receipt of said test message, I found nothing had changed in the header of my message sent thru them - my Organization still showed as Organization: -= Borderline =-.
Perhaps this is only done when the message does not contain an Organization line, or perhaps you are using a different set of mail servers than myself.
-Pat
kc.rr.com, btw
--
Me spell chucker work grate. Need grandma chicken.
The complaint was about Usenet, not email. SMTP is irrelevant.
I don't see the problem here. The Organization: field gets set by the NNTP server that carried the message onto the 'net. This is great, it provides quite a bit more authenticity for messages.
I'm building a little groupware server that supports SMTP/POP/IMAP (among other things) and I do something even more heinous, to prevent open relaying: if you're not using authenticated SMTP, you can't deliver a message that claims to be from one of the server's own domains -- and if you are using authenticated SMTP, it rewrites the From: header line, forcing the message to appear authored by the user you logged in as.
Internet tradition and even some RFC's say that it's a sin to alter the message content, but in an era where people on the 'net just can't be trusted anymore, I think that's an obsolete concept.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
This misuse of the Organization header is not only an issue for the sender, but is also an issue for people responding to the article or complaining about it and for other ISPs. You've got things turned around; if RR wants to add data not provided for in the RFC, then they should be using an X-header, instead of subverting one of the existing headers.
The bottom line is that you are confusing network provider with sender; they are not the same. If I want to know that it came from RR, I'll look at the Path header. It is RR that is treating this as a vanity header instead of a header that has a prescribed function.
X-Roadrunner-Status: It Sucks today and probably more tommorrow
or if you want your own organization use:
X-Organization: [Your company name]
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
ROADRUNNER SUX!
ROADRUNNER SUX!
ROADRUNNER SUX!
ROADRUNNER SUX!
There, feel better now?
Unfortunately, Bellsouth sux *WAY* more and the broadband choices here are those two bastards alone.
Let me tell you about the billing issues I still have with *BOTH* of them...
"Have a big pipe? Blah blah blah," that SF has been placing at the bottom of developer mailing list messages.
That's all newsguy and the other binariez hostz are for, gets warez. Don't LIE! dumass
.
I have had RR for over two years and it has been doing that since I joined up.
Got anything interesting?
Could this make them legally liable for the posted content? It would make it harder to claim that they are just a "common carrier" since they change the headers and claim ownership.
....then you need to start posting opinions they'd rather not own, such as comments about monopolies being bogusly abusive, questioning and/or declaring the ownership of copyrights on the content of the postings, self-contradictory statements, Top Ten Bad Things about Steve Case, etc....
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Updated Newsguy pricing can be found here: (http://newsguy.com/overview.htm). Executive summary:
Basic newsgroup access (10MB/day download cap): $40/year
Add a couple of email addresses and website/storage: $5.95/month (i.e. $72/year)
Up the daily download cap to 500MB/day: 12.95/month (or pay per year for $80/year)
As far as I can tell, all accounts seem to have access to the binaries groups, but 10MB/day will be frustrating if you want to actually use those newsgroups.
No, I'm not affiliated with Newsguy. Never used their service, so I don't know how good they are (or aren't).
----
Open mind, insert foot.
It's just possible that this was set up by RR admins who are trying to follow established guidelines. Roadrunner really does a crummy job of providing, to say nothing of supporting, newsgroups. It's unlikely that any corporate decision was made about promoting the company by using the Organization: header. It's too obvious that there is absolutely no concern from the powers that be about Usenet. Except that they'd probably like to drop it entirely, to save $.
Actually (IANAL) it's when you hire someone to work in said premises. The anti-smoking law is to protect employees. If the business is run purely by the owners, then the law does not apply. The cigar bar in SF is a good example:
http://bayarea.citysearch.com/profile/11345253/
What does this have to do with YRO? Doesnt seem like any rights are violated here.
.