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FAA Pushes Air Traffic Control Systems Into Service

An anonymous reader points us to this AP story about the FAA forcing new air traffic control systems into service, over the objections of technicians and air traffic controllers. The Transportation Department's Inspector General notes that many critical bugs remain unfixed. We reviewed a book that discussed the lessons to be learned from software engineering projects; and we had a recent story about Great Britain having all sorts of problems with their new air traffic control software.

333 comments

  1. F1RST P0ST by L0rdkariya · · Score: 0, Informative

    for the CLIT

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    The /. users are rep'd by 2 groups. Janitors, who post articles, and Trolls who bash them. These are
  2. Do what Microsoft does by alen · · Score: 3, Funny

    Roll it out into production and patch it later. Only full production testing will find all the bugs.

    1. Re:Do what Microsoft does by PolyDwarf · · Score: 2

      I thought Microsoft rolled it out into production, and then charged for the patches later?

    2. Re:Do what Microsoft does by medcalf · · Score: 3

      Boy, do I not want to be the pilot finding the bugs! That said, there's been a lot of discussion of this system over the past couple of years within the aviation community, and it appears that once the system is ready, it will be a great productivity boost to the controllers, while reducing their stress and strain in trying to track high-density, high-speed traffic.

      --
      -- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
    3. Re:Do what Microsoft does by morgajel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      problem is people WILL die first time this fucks up. remeber the panic from the 90's when the phonesystem blacked out.
      this has the potential to be _MUCH_ worse.

      bad FAA, no cookie!

      --
      Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.
    4. Re:Do what Microsoft does by Dionysus · · Score: 1

      Isn't that what ESR recommends? Releases often and early?

      --
      Je ne parle pas francais.
    5. Re:Do what Microsoft does by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 1
      "Boy, do I not want to be the pilot finding the bugs!"

      I am predicting a divide by zero error the first time one of these systems tracks a plane landing in a below-sea-level area. (Think in terms of altitude.)

      But then again, what do I know about aviation?

    6. Re:Do what Microsoft does by atrowe · · Score: 2
      "DVD burner Windows XP compatibility."

      Have you been reading his sex tips for geeks again?

      --

      -atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.

    7. Re:Do what Microsoft does by GreyPoopon · · Score: 1
      I am predicting a divide by zero error the first time one of these systems tracks a plane landing in a below-sea-level area.

      Hear that? That's the sound of a STARS programmer realizing that you're right and scurrying to his computer to send out a notification e-mail and code up a fix for the bug.

      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

    8. Re:Do what Microsoft does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, no-one will die, they'll just get delayed by a couple of hours. Don't over-react so: it just makes you look like a silly drama queen, sweetie.

    9. Re:Do what Microsoft does by davburns · · Score: 1

      Why would you divide by altitude?

    10. Re:Do what Microsoft does by ipjohnson · · Score: 1

      just because the primary system fails it doesn't mean the back up will ... and even if it does just because you can't track the plane doesn't mean it falls out of the sky.

      If a pilot loses contact with their controler they are required to follow there predefined route and land at their pre-determind airport.

      Remember these systems still have to go down for maintence.

    11. Re:Do what Microsoft does by whovian · · Score: 2

      WFM, STARS-1.0-rc1, build 2002060119

      --Pilot, SWA flt 1499, dep MDW 11:25, arr 4:10 ELP

      --
      To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
    12. Re:Do what Microsoft does by phliar · · Score: 2
      problem is people WILL die first time this fucks up.
      Unlikely. Remember, airplanes have been flying since before computers and radar.

      If the system goes down, the controllers will revert to manual. Of course the capacity of the system is greatly reduced, and there will be delays. Lots of pissed of passengers, but no dead ones.

      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    13. Re:Do what Microsoft does by phliar · · Score: 2
      I am predicting a divide by zero error the first time one of these systems tracks a plane landing in a below-sea-level area.
      Why and when would anyone ever want to divide something by an altitude?

      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    14. Re:Do what Microsoft does by secolactico · · Score: 1

      Yes indeed. But the crashes are going to be much nastier than a simple kernel panic.

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      No sig
    15. Re:Do what Microsoft does by LinuxCumShot · · Score: 1

      Fire all the air traffic controllers! worked last time... those guys don't know how good they have it.

      --
      -- OMFG = Oh My Floatse Goatse
    16. Re:Do what Microsoft does by fishbowl · · Score: 2

      before computers and radar, landings weren't 2 minutes apart.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    17. Re:Do what Microsoft does by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      They were during the Berlin Airlift, and on US, UK, IJN, Dutch Aircraft Carriers doing combat operations from 1935 to now.

      http://www.usafe.af.mil/berlin/quickfax.htm

      16 Apr 49
      * CALTF mounts a maximum effort known as the "Easter Parade": 1,398 sorties (one landing in Berlin every minute), 12,940 short tons.

      "USA: C-47s, C-54s. Five C-82s, 1 C-74, 1 C-97 (flew temporarily)
      * UK: Dakotas, Yorks, and later Hastings. RAF chartered commercial carriers to supplement its own efforts, and charter companies flew a wide variety of aircraft. Australian, New Zealand, and South African air forces sent crews to fly with British Royal Air Force but no aircraft. "

    18. Re:Do what Microsoft does by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 2
      "Why and when would anyone ever want to divide something by an altitude?"

      Maybe there is an emergency situation and they need to do some aerodynamic calculations. For that they will need the density of the air.

      density = pressure / (accel due to gravity * height)

      Where height is derived the altitute (it's not the distance between the plane and the ground.) Also, there are probably a bunch of other relevant calculations where you multiply or divide by altitute and this there would be a zero floating around in your calculations.

    19. Re:Do what Microsoft does by phliar · · Score: 2
      "Why and when would anyone ever want to divide something by an altitude?"

      Maybe there is an emergency situation and they need to do some aerodynamic calculations. For that they will need the density of the air.

      density = pressure / (accel due to gravity * height)

      You're not suggesting that the ATC computer needs to do this, I hope.

      The only person that might ever need to worry about aerodynamics of this sort is the pilot. Or rather, something like an air-data computer in the airplane. Not ATC.

      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    20. Re:Do what Microsoft does by jeremyp · · Score: 2

      There must be something seriously wrong with that formula. It states that for small values of height the density is extremely large. At zero altitude, there is a sigularity. Having been at sea level several times, I can safely say that density is not infinite there.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    21. Re:Do what Microsoft does by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 1
      "Having been at sea level several times, I can safely say that density is not infinite there."

      I would hope not ... that was just a highly hypothetical conjecture that wandered from my mind into the posting form ...

    22. Re:Do what Microsoft does by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 1
      "Having been at sea level several times, I can safely say that density is not infinite there."

      If I recall correctly, in the real world this relation is logarithmic. Only over small distances (as you said) can it be approximated as a linear relation.

    23. Re:Do what Microsoft does by Abreu · · Score: 2

      No way!

      I work for one of the major US airlines (not in the US, though), and I can safely assure you that thre are more redundant backup systems in your average airport's ATC than in the web server room at a large site like Mozilla.org (havent been able to download the darned thing since yesterday's morning)

      Yes, the last resort backup systems includes de Controllers taking binoculars and landing the planes by sight, but that has happened very rarely (and to my knowledge, nobody found out)

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    24. Re:Do what Microsoft does by Abreu · · Score: 2

      Also, lets remember that most pilots who fly big planes in the major US airlines can remember that time, and some even were there

      Most 747 pilots for the US airlines are more than 50 years old and almost all were originally trained at the US Air Force.

      And the situation is similar in other international airlines... Thats what you get in an industry where company seniority is everything.

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    25. Re:Do what Microsoft does by AB3A · · Score: 1
      Mod the previous comment up, please.

      I'm an instrument rated private pilot. Folks, a screwed up ATC system is nothing new. I've had my instrument flight plans fall on the floor while being handed off from one sector to another. I've been stuck in holding patterns waiting for traffic to get through. And yes, I've been turned away from areas due to emergencies of one sort or another. It's not fun, but we all have procedures for handling this.

      In addition, large passenger aircraft are required to carry a Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) on board. This system interrogates transponders of other aircraft and issues emergency instructions should one aircraft get too close.

      With good adherence to procedure, you'd be amazed just how many pilots can land at an airport without any ground-based traffic management facilities. I flew in to Tangier Island, VA one year (it was the Holly Run) with over 50 other aircraft. We all were safely on the ground in about a half an hour. There was no air traffic management of any kind other than our own aviation radios and navigation equipment.

      All an air traffic management system needs to do is be more reliable than what it replaces and I think everyone, Pilots, Air Traffic Controllers, and passengers alike will be happy.

      --
      Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
  3. no one ever learns.... by D0wnsp0ut · · Score: 1

    I'm STILL glad I don't "fly the friendly skies"....

    --
    "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither!"
    1. Re:no one ever learns.... by AyeRoxor! · · Score: 1

      The rest of us are, too. On my flights to london, paris, and all over Japan, I've constantly wished there were fewer people flying. My prices may be higher, but the seats would probably be spread out better. Picture me and my fellow 6-footer sharing a 1.5inch wide armrest for 8 hours. Wasn't pretty.

      YOU'RE ALL GOING TO DIE IF YOU FLY! it's a statistical certainty! now stay off my flights.
      :)

  4. uhh... by MaxVlast · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't they remember the disaster when the ATC shut down a few years back? It's not like this thing is a web browser.

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    1. Re:uhh... by Helmholtz+Coil · · Score: 1

      I just wish they'd foreseen the AoTC disaster and shut that down in time.

  5. It's a karma drain, but someone has to do it... by Dimensio · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    ...If we can't crash our airplanes into buildings accidentally before the terrorists do it deliberately then the terrorists have already won.

    1. Re:It's a karma drain, but someone has to do it... by SirSlud · · Score: 1, Troll

      Better yet, the next time terrorists try, they probably won't be able to do it with this new buggy terrorist-proof software! It's brilliant!

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
  6. Call Nader! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those filthy Capitalists pushing that expensive software!

    Mozilla 1.0 is out and it is free, therfore th government no longer needs to pay corporations any more.

    Ummm, isn't that the way I am supposed to think now that I am a greenie ;-)

  7. New traffic control system by t_allardyce · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yeah, the controllers are pissed off because they based the new system on one of those bad ATC games with flashy graphics. It now runs on a Windows 98 machine and crashes every 1024 planes

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    This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
    1. Re:New traffic control system by Budgreen · · Score: 0

      Guess that would give the blue screen of death a whole new meaning... ouch!

      --
      The greatest right given is the right to be wrong...
  8. Bugs and air-traffic control.. by ldopa1 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Even a buggy air-traffic control system is better than the one they have now. Every 3 days or so, the radar screens drop horizontal so that air traffic controllers can keep track of their dots while the computer goes down and then comes back up.

    This is not a pretty sight. Each ATC can have 30+ planes on their screen, and when the computer goes down, they screen drops horizontal, the ATC whips out little flags with numbers on them and keeps them on top of the now anonymous dots.

    So I think ANY improvement is a good thing.

    On the blacker side: The bugs themselves could be a good thing. Maybe one of these "bugs" will misreport the location of things like the Sears Tower, or the Capitol Building and a hijacked plane will slam into "Al's Meats and More" instead of the intended target.... (yes, I'm still REALLY angry about the Pentagon/WTC/Penn. terrorist attacks)

    --
    The Dopester
    "Yes, I'm a Karma Whore, but I'm doing it to pay my way through school."
    1. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by soulcuttr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't know a whole lot about the way that this system interacts with navigation in planes themselves, but I don't believe air traffic controllers guided those terrorist airplanes into the towers. So I don't see that your "blacker side" has any reasonable chance of occurring.

      -Sou|cuttr

    2. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by LordYUK · · Score: 0

      What did "Al's Meats and More" ever do to you? I'm not any happier about the events of 9-11, but I dont wish a crashing plane on anyone. For shame on you to wish a plane crash ANYWHERE.

      And yes, I understand that good ol' Al and his three customers are better than a few thousand like in the WTC, but death is death, and this aint Star Trek where the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Especially since they brought "the few" back the very next episode.

      --
      This is my sig. Its pathetic.
    3. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by rhost89 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Sounds like your more mad at Al's Meat Market :)

      --
      I will bend your mind with my spoon
    4. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by geekoid · · Score: 2

      yeah, but why are you mad at Al? he's just a humble butcher who offers more then just meat.

      Seriously though, known bugs can be better to deal with then a whole set of new bugs. Espcially if the new bugs miss-report altitudes.

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    5. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by ldopa1 · · Score: 1

      You're right of course. The planes have independant navigational systems. There really is nothing that would have been affected, more's the pity. :(

      Unless of course, the flights never got off the ground in the first place....

      --
      The Dopester
      "Yes, I'm a Karma Whore, but I'm doing it to pay my way through school."
    6. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by ldopa1 · · Score: 1

      I agree, for the most part (see latest article about Gopher vulnerability in IE), but in this case, losing the ID's of planes in the air is a very SERIOUS problem, and as I understand this particular problem, it's not a bug, it's a hardware failure that brings the WHOLE system down.

      While a GPF is pretty bad, the new system is client-server instead of mainframe based, so if a server goes down, another server picks up. Certainly quicker than cooling and rebooting a 30 year old mainframe.....

      --
      The Dopester
      "Yes, I'm a Karma Whore, but I'm doing it to pay my way through school."
    7. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by The+Dobber · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't "Pete's Pork Palace" be more appropriate?

      Of course it would be empty at the time, Pete, being the heathen that he, is having gone down to the local pub for a brew. And oggle some scantily clad women.

    8. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by Cmdr+Taco+(luser) · · Score: 1

      You may recall, a few years ago, some concern expressed about the obsolescene and general decrepitude of FAA ATC systems. The software/systems that the FAA is trying to expedite are badly needed and have been a *long* time coming.

      I have a cousin who was an ATC in for about 20 years; now he is an ATC trainer at the FAA in OKC. He is intimately familiar with the old equipment and has had some exposure to the new. It it his considered opinion that the sooner the new systems are put online, the better. That is not to say that catastrophic bugs are acceptable, but the old systems are not acceptable either.

      --
      All things in moderation.
    9. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by GreyPoopon · · Score: 2
      Even a buggy air-traffic control system is better than the one they have now.

      I'm not sure I agree with you. From your description, it sounds like they have it pretty bad, but after reading the letter that was linked to by the original post, I think what they're getting may be even worse. Recovery times when the computer goes down are between 90 minutes and 3 hours! They're not supposed to use their existing system as an emergency backup. The FAA technicians were FORCED (by a clause in their contract) to give the system (in Syracuse) their stamp of approval, even though they don't feel it's safe for real world use. And the folks on the project can't even get close to agreeing on the number of CRITICAL trouble reports that are still outstanding. In my mind, anything marked as CRITICAL is a safety hazard.

      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

    10. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by oni · · Score: 2

      The planes have independant navigational systems.

      yeah, I was just gonna say I'm pretty sure terrorists are cleared for VFR.

    11. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by monkeydo · · Score: 2

      Could you please cite a refrence for your fanciful story of controllers with flipping screens and numbered flags? Or did you hear that "from a friend who knows a guy who works in a tower somewhere?"

      --
      Si vis pacem, para bellum
      The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
    12. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by delcielo · · Score: 2

      My understanding is that they've decided that Mohammed Atta actually went to the WTC ahead of time with a hand-held GPS. Once there he just captured his location as a user-defined waypoint, then passed on the coordinates to the terrorists assigned to the second plane.

      --
      Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
    13. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by ldopa1 · · Score: 1

      Yes, my reference is myself, as I have witnessed this particular phenomenon in Jefferson City, MO. Also, it's mentioned in Varney's novel Millenium, I believe...

      --
      The Dopester
      "Yes, I'm a Karma Whore, but I'm doing it to pay my way through school."
    14. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by kleenex+box · · Score: 0

      boo hoo, some shit happened, some people died, some shit got fucked up.

      who cares? the terrorists have already won. your country is straining under the stress imposed by all your restrictions on freedom, which, ironically, are all in the name of fighting terrorism.

      want some advice? sit back with a cold one, cuz the world is going to shit and there's not a thing anyone can do about it.

    15. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by letxa2000 · · Score: 1
      Amen.

      I'm a private pilot and a computer programmer. I've never understood why they didn't have a better system. There's so many powerful things that could be done; the least of which, of course, is detecting deviations from course within seconds and relaying that information simultaneously to ATC as well as to NORAD so that F16s can be scrambled while ATC figures out what's going on. You can always land the F16s if it was a false alarm...

      . And, as they say... "What do pilots and ATC have in common? When the pilot screws up, the pilot dies. When ATC screws up, the pilot dies..."

    16. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by phliar · · Score: 2
      Maybe one of these "bugs" will misreport the location of things like the Sears Tower, or the Capitol Building....
      No sane pilot relies on ATC to keep herself from flying into a building or a mountain.

      Even while on "radar vectors" (means the controller has identified your blip on the scope and gives you headings to fly) a pilot will always know where he is at all times. (The pilots who don't might not see old age.)

      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    17. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      drop horizontal? WTF are you talking about? ATC and terrorist attacks? How this post get such a high score?

    18. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you could go out and buy an SUV so your have to give more money to the Saudi's who finianced the operation and supplied most of the people. If SUV's were outlawed tomarrow, the US oil usage could be meet without any oil at all from the middle east. If we don't need their oil, we don't need stability in the region and we could save hundreds of billions over the next year.

    19. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by thogard · · Score: 2

      Maybe its because 99.9999% of corse deviations aren't a problem. There is this stuff called weather and airplanes fly in it. It has quite an effect on aircraft and has been know to do things like drop aiplanes 5000 feet in a few seconds.

      ATC only gives hints at where the planes are supposed to be going except in the landing enviroment.

      The way the old system works is simple, you say I want to fly from point A to point B and if I can't land at point B, I'll go to point C. My plane goes this fast and I would like to go at an altitude of about somany feet. ATC then says you can take off from point A (within 30 min or so) and fly on airway V-whatever to some vor at a specifc altitude. You get assinged chuncks of airspace and you get exclusive use of that. The assumption of the old system is that the radio is going to break and since the pilot has all the details before they leave the ground, its all safe.

      This works nothing like what you read in your OOD programming book.

    20. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by slickwillie · · Score: 2

      Maybe that's one of the bugs in the old system. Causes planes to disable their transponders, fly into tall or unusually shaped buildings (and miss the White House), and delete Arab-sounding names from the passenger list.

    21. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really now? I'm a flight instructor and have been inside various TRACON facilities and have never seen or heard of this type of thing.

    22. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by ldopa1 · · Score: 1

      Jefferson City, MO. You'll only see it if the mainframe goes down. Mind you, the last time I've been in a tower was in '90, so things might have changed, and I know not all systems were like this.

      --
      The Dopester
      "Yes, I'm a Karma Whore, but I'm doing it to pay my way through school."
    23. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by phliar · · Score: 2
      There's so many powerful things that could be done; the least of which, of course, is detecting deviations from course within seconds and relaying that information simultaneously to ATC as well as to NORAD so that F16s can be scrambled
      Hey! Let's maintain some perspective here! First: most VFR traffic may not even be visible to ATC (sectors can turn off 1200 replies); and IFR traffic, how many times have you heard on frequency: "Cessna 1234, verify RIGHT turn heading 310" or "say altitude" -- that usually means the pilot turned the wrong way or went past the assigned altitude. Scrambling F-16s is expensive!

      I wish the FAA would spend a little brainpower on things like making equipment certification (e.g. IFR GPS installations) for Part 91 ops easier instead of closing the barn door after the horse has escaped. It always amuses me that I'm legal shooting an NDB approach with a 50 year old Narco receiver, but illegal with a "VFR only" panel-mount moving-map GPS. I also wish they'd pay controllers real money and upgrade ATC radar instead of crap like more "security" at tiny airports. And some real weather reporting and briefing instead of closing every FSS in sight.

      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    24. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by lethalwp · · Score: 1

      Are they running Microsoft Windows (tm)?

    25. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by letxa2000 · · Score: 1
      ATC only gives hints at where the planes are supposed to be going except in the landing enviroment.

      When you are over 18,000', ATC tells you exactly where they want you, when they want you there, and how fast you should be going. It's called "controlled airspace" and it is very much controlled.

      The way the old system works is simple, you say I want to fly from point A to point B and if I can't land at point B, I'll go to point C. My plane goes this fast and I would like to go at an altitude of about somany feet. ATC then says you can take off from point A (within 30 min or so) and fly on airway V-whatever to some vor at a specifc altitude. You get assinged chuncks of airspace and you get exclusive use of that.

      That may be how the VERY old system works, but even with the "current" old system that's not the way it has worked in the 90s. You are passed from departure control directly to ATC. You tell them where you want to go (they usually already know because you told departure control) and they tell you how fast to go, when to turn, etc. If you want/need to deviate from what they tell you, you need to request permission unless it is truly an emergency.

      Any deviation that isn't corrected or at least explained by the pilots to ATC within, say, 30-45 seconds should raise a red flag that ATC should proactively inquire about. If it isn't explained within about 2 minutes, NORAD should know about it. The number of unannounced, unexplained course changes where ATC can't verify within 2 minutes what's going on is a low enough percentage that F16s could be scrambled. Even if it is later explained and the F16s return to base, call it training for the F16.

      The assumption of the old system is that the radio is going to break and since the pilot has all the details before they leave the ground, its all safe.

      Again, maybe it was that way decades ago, but not anymore. If you don't have radio comm with ATC or if you ignore ATC instructions for any significant period of time, you WILL get an F16 escort. That's why that golfer that bought the farm in SD after flying without comm from FL had an F16 escort long before the plane went down.

      It's also why it's kind of weird we couldn't scramble any planes to help out on 9/11. Not suggesting any conspiracies, but one has to admit we responded faster to the lone golfer flying over the country off flight plan than we did to 4 commercial jets doing so.

    26. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by letxa2000 · · Score: 1
      First: most VFR traffic may not even be visible to ATC (sectors can turn off 1200 replies);

      Right, but I don't think they do or should. At the very least, it allows them to make sure VFR traffic doesn't wander into IFR traffic--they can advise IFR traffic to make a course change to avoid lost VFR traffic.

      and IFR traffic, how many times have you heard on frequency: "Cessna 1234, verify RIGHT turn heading 310" or "say altitude" -- that usually means the pilot turned the wrong way or went past the assigned altitude. Scrambling F-16s is expensive!

      That usually happens in controlled airspace around airports with tower control. That wouldn't scramble F16s. Unannounced deviations in course changes at IFR flight levels (18,000'+) is what I'm talking about.

    27. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by togtog · · Score: 1

      That wasn't chicken...

    28. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by monkeydo · · Score: 2

      You're citing something you saw over a decade ago as current events? I have been in several towers and TRACON facilities since then, and I have never heard of such a thing.

      What type of facility does the FAA operate in Jefferson City, MO? It must have been TRACON or ARTCC since tower controllers are usually just looking out the window anyway. Maybe someone was pulling you leg.

      --
      Si vis pacem, para bellum
      The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
    29. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by ldopa1 · · Score: 1

      If someone was pulling my leg, it was myself... Seeing as I was there, and one of the controllers demonstrated.

      --
      The Dopester
      "Yes, I'm a Karma Whore, but I'm doing it to pay my way through school."
    30. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by AyeRoxor! · · Score: 1

      >Are they running Microsoft Windows(tm)?

      Does it matter? NASA runs windows. Those of you who get the NASA channel through cable know what I'm talking about. You're looking at a graphic of the shuttle's orbit over the earth, and every now and then the task bar refuses to auto-hide, and there's the start button :-P Scary stuff...

    31. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by Abreu · · Score: 2

      Hear, Hear!

      I am actually sick of people blaming the airlines and the airport ATC/security/insert-division-here for the 9-11 attacks.

      The US goverment (and only the US goverment) is to blame

      You simply can't have international policy the way the US has without pissing off many people, including people who are so fanatic that their lives mean little compared to their hate.

      So if you know that you are going to piss off people, then for chrissakes, dont be so naive to think that this couldnt have happened.

      Lets hope and pray that next time theres a very rich guy with a serious grudge with the US, he doesnt get some plutonium from cash-strapped nuclear physicists in the former USSR.

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    32. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by monkeydo · · Score: 2

      Planes deviate ALL THE TIME, even in the Class A. Airplanes have radio failures, even in the Class A. Pilots get busy and don't respond to ATC. They might even have an emergency that causes tehm to lose contact and deviate from their assigned course. This actually happens quite frequently, even in the Class A. I don't know where you got this image you have that above FL180 everyone is just trotting along within feet of their assigned path talking to ATC every 30-45 seconds.

      If you don't have radio comm with ATC or if you ignore ATC instructions for any significant period of time, you WILL get an F16 escort. That's why that golfer that bought the farm in SD after flying without comm from FL had an F16 escort long before the plane went down.

      You might today, but most likely not. A year ago your certainly wouldn't have. The first thing a controller will do if you are NORDO is communicate with other aircraft in the vicinty to keep them out of your way and try to establish visual contact. The only place you would likely see jets scrambled prior to 9/11 would be in the defense zones.
      Payne Stewart's plane had an escort, because it was clear that it was on autopilot, and no one on board was in control. However, F16's were not scrambled to intercept, controllers requested assistance from several F15 fighters on training maneuvers in the area. The plane was also not deviating from it's course, it just never stopped climbing after departure.

      It's also why it's kind of weird we couldn't scramble any planes to help out on 9/11. Not suggesting any conspiracies, but one has to admit we responded faster to the lone golfer flying over the country off flight plan than we did to 4 commercial jets doing so.

      Pure FUD. It isn't weird at all. NO PLANES WERE SCRAMBLED IN THE PAYNE STEWART CASE! Once it was clear that the plane was going to just keep on flying it was escorted by fighters to make sure airspace was clear and track it's progress. Prior to 9/11 there was no protocol in place to scramble fighters for anything. This would require alert fighters on the runways at bases all across the country and CAP 24 hours a day. We had that for a couple of weeks after 9/11, but it stopped some time ago.

      There was no indication of hijacking on any of the planes on 9/11. None of the controllers talking to either of the planes had any idea about the others, or what was really going on. When the first plane crashed into the WTC, almost everybody thought it was an accident. Even in DC where there has been restricted airspace over the White House for years, there are hundreds of incursions every year. Prior to 9/11 most of these simply resulted in stern warnings. Even post 9/11 jets aren't scrambled everytime some pilot forgets his "immediate turn" when departing National.

      --
      Si vis pacem, para bellum
      The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
    33. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by letxa2000 · · Score: 1
      Planes deviate ALL THE TIME, even in the Class A. Airplanes have radio failures, even in the Class A. Pilots get busy and don't respond to ATC... I don't know where you got this image you have that above FL180 everyone is just trotting along within feet of their assigned path talking to ATC every 30-45 seconds.

      They don't talk every 30-45 seconds with every plane, but they are in contact quite constantly. All you need to do is listen to ATC frequencies be it on your own radio on the ground or listening to pilot/ATC channel when that is available on the plane you are flying in.

      Payne Stewart's plane had an escort, because it was clear that it was on autopilot, and no one on board was in control... The plane was also not deviating from it's course, it just never stopped climbing after departure.

      My understanding he was supposed to turn west somewhere around the panhandle of Florida but kept on his original northwesterly course. I do not remember whether they realized there was a problem before or after the missed turn.

      That said, continuing to climb and climb without the instructions of ATC is, in itself, a deviation.

      Prior to 9/11 there was no protocol in place to scramble fighters for anything.

      There is a protocol, although I don't know where it is applied. If you try to fly from Mexico into the U.S. without talking to ATC, you'll get an escort. If you violate restricted airspace, you'll get an escort. It's not a matter of them not having a protocol, it was a problem of it not being implemented widescale.

      This would require alert fighters on the runways at bases all across the country and CAP 24 hours a day. We had that for a couple of weeks after 9/11, but it stopped some time ago.

      I would argue that we should have. I'd say we got complacent. We're the sole superpower. We got into a "no-one would even thinking of attacking us" mode and shipped our defenses all over the world--protecting everyone but ourselves.

      We don't need fighters in the air 24/7, but we should have fighters on strip alert around the country. Always.

    34. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by monkeydo · · Score: 2

      If you try to fly from Mexico into the U.S. without talking to ATC, you'll get an escort.

      Prior to 9/11 you wouldn't get a fighter escort. Most likely you'll just be shadowed by Customs or the Coast Guard to your point of landing. But this has nothing to do with obeying ATC or fear of terrorists. It has everything to do with unlawfully entering US airspace. Of course this is a completely different problem than US planes diverting from their filght plans.

      If you violate restricted airspace, you'll get an escort.

      Depending on the reason for the restricted airspace, this might happen today, but not a year ago. There is restricted airspace everywhere, and it is violated all the time. Usually you'll just get a stern warning from controllers, sometimes nothing. If it's a big deal the FAA may be waiting for you when you land.

      We don't need fighters in the air 24/7, but we should have fighters on strip alert around the country. Always.

      Aside from the great expense this would generate for very little benefit (what would the fighters do exactly) there are legal issues as well. Federal law prohibts the use of the military to enforce the law against US citizens, this is why the Coast Guard and ot the Navy conducts interdiction against suspected smugglers. If the planes aren't aready in the air they'll never do any good anyway. The controllers at Dulles recognized the threat and notified the White House when the plane that hit the Pentagon was 14 miles away, this was after both Trade Towers were hit, and most everyone had an idea of what was going on. That would give fighters less than a minute and a half just to be there and watch the plane crash into it's intended target.

      --
      Si vis pacem, para bellum
      The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
    35. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by letxa2000 · · Score: 1
      Me: If you try to fly from Mexico into the U.S. without talking to ATC, you'll get an escort.
      You: Prior to 9/11 you wouldn't get a fighter escort. Most likely you'll just be shadowed by Customs or the Coast Guard to your point of landing

      FAA/NORAD Regulations would tend to indicate otherwise.

      This also jives with what I was told by more experienced pilots at the flight school I received training at, relating situations where a lack of communication entering the U.S. DID result in a pair of interceptors flying out to them.

      But this has nothing to do with obeying ATC or fear of terrorists. It has everything to do with unlawfully entering US airspace. Of course this is a completely different problem than US planes diverting from their filght plans.

      Agreed. But my point is that there WERE procedures in place before 9/11 that called for intercepts, the situations in which they were called for were just apparently lacking.

      Aside from the great expense this would generate for very little benefit (what would the fighters do exactly)

      It doesn't cost any more to pay a fighter pilot (already employed by the military) to be ready to fly in 5 minutes, and it doesn't cost significantly more to park a pair of interceptors near the end of the runway rather than in the hanger with no weapons on board.

      Federal law prohibts the use of the military to enforce the law against US citizens

      This isn't using the military to enforce the law against U.S. citizens. It is using the military to protect U.S. airspace, something I consider much more important than protecting some of the countries we choose to protect.

      I agree, I don't want MPs on every street corner like in Israel. I don't even want F16s doing CAPs over U.S. airspace constantly.

      I DO want the military ready to protect our homeland. I agree that the diversion of domestic planes was unexpected (notwithstanding recent news regarding the info the FBI had), but what if (hypothetical) Cuba decided to send a few "commercial jets" our way? What if a foreign air force "came in low" over the Atlantic?

      Our country is so strong we've spread our military out all over the world to protect our interests, but I get the impression the actual homeland is quite vulnerable to attack.

    36. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by monkeydo · · Score: 2

      Agreed. But my point is that there WERE procedures in place before 9/11 that called for intercepts, the situations in which they were called for were just apparently lacking.

      The ADIZ (and DEWIZ in Alsaka) is simply a buffer zone to allow NORAD to identify all tracks entering US airspace. In the link you copied, you'll notice that identification of unknown tracks is initiated by NORAD, not ATC, but idntification is performed by ATC not fighter jets. NORAD is not Customs or Boarder Patrol. Once they establish that you aren't a cruise missle they aren't going to care what you are. It will be up to the FAA/Customs/Boarder Patrol if you get busted or not.

      This is what the FAA has to say about ADIZ intercepts:

      "Identification intercepts during peacetime operations are vastly different than those conducted under increased states of readiness. Unless otherwise directed by the control agency, intercepted aircraft will be identified by type only. When specific information is required (i.e. markings, serial numbers, etc.) the interceptor aircrew will respond only if the request can be conducted in a safe manner. During hours of darkness or Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC), identification of unknown aircraft will be by type only. The interception pattern described below is the typical peacetime method used by air interceptor aircrews. In all situations, the interceptor aircrew will use caution to avoid startling the intercepted aircrew and/or passengers."

      In other words, they don't care who you are and what you are doing. They just want to know what TYPE of aircraft you are flying. You could be "intercepted" in your Cessna flying across the boarder and you wouldn't even know it.

      This isn't using the military to enforce the law against U.S. citizens. It is using the military to protect U.S. airspace, something I consider much more important than protecting some of the countries we choose to protect.

      The terrorists on 9/11 would not have responded to an intercept. Besides, that requires time and distance, a luxury that you don't have over that part of the US. The only option would be a shoot down, but when do you make that dicision? Police officers aren't allowed to shoot fleeing suspects in the back (something about due process) but you would advocate shooting down US commercial aircraft without time to make an informed dicision? That's assinine.

      It doesn't cost any more to pay a fighter pilot (already employed by the military) to be ready to fly in 5 minutes, and it doesn't cost significantly more to park a pair of interceptors near the end of the runway rather than in the hanger with no weapons on board.

      If you can have fighters in the air in 5 minutes, within 5 minutes of any airspace in the US, you must keep all civil aircraft at least 15 minutes from any major population areas. How do propose to do this? Most major airports are IN cities. Once a plane is 10 minutes off it's ground track it could be in the White House, the Pentagon, Sear's tower, Downtown LA, the Statue of Liberty, etc. F16's wouldn't have done any good on 9/11.

      I agree, I don't want MPs on every street corner like in Israel.

      They aren't MP's they are soldiers, and unlike most of the NG at airports in this country they have real bullets, and they are quite well trained. They still can't prevent suicide bombers. What makes you think we can with less invasive steps?

      I agree that the diversion of domestic planes was unexpected (notwithstanding recent news regarding the info the FBI had), but what if (hypothetical) Cuba decided to send a few "commercial jets" our way?

      If they were tracked from Cuba they would probably be forced down at a field in Florida and met by Border Patrol/Customs/USCG most likely NOT military.

      What if a foreign air force "came in low" over the Atlantic?

      I know of no foreign airforce that could accompish this, but if they did quite simply we would be screwed, yesterday today and tommorow. If a foreign airforce can fly across the Atlantic with enough force to do damage and get here undetected, does it matter what we do when they get here? Should we set up SAM sites on the Eastern Seaboard?

      --
      Si vis pacem, para bellum
      The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
    37. Re:Bugs and air-traffic control.. by letxa2000 · · Score: 1
      It will be up to the FAA/ Customs/Boarder Patrol if you get busted or not.

      Sounds like something is broken to me. If NORAD only cares about cruise missiles, that needs to change. They have the tools to recognize traffic across the continent, they should be used fully--not just for tracking cruise or ballistic missiles.

      I wonder how far Mexico would get if they decided they wanted to invade us? Sure, we'd push them back and flatten their country--but I honestly wonder how far north they could push before we were in a position to respond. After Pearl Harbor I seem to recall we were worried that the Japanese could push us back to Chicago (or thereabouts) before we could even do anything.

      Yes, I know, it's hypothetical. But everything is hypothetical until it happens. So was Pearl Harbor. So was 9/11. The trick is having a military that is ready to respond when the unthinkable and unexpected happens.

      If they were tracked from Cuba they would probably be forced down at a field in Florida and met by Border Patrol/Customs/USCG most likely NOT military.

      Who do you think would force them down? If anyone other than the military, we've got a problem.

      I know of no foreign airforce that could accompish this, but if they did quite simply we would be screwed, yesterday today and tommorow. If a foreign airforce can fly across the Atlantic with enough force to do damage and get here undetected, does it matter what we do when they get here?

      In other words, if they get here we can't do anything anyway? What in the world do we have a military for then?

      As for no foreign airforce being able to do it, I'd rather say that there is currently no foreign airforce that would want to do it. As far as we know. The technology necessary to fly across the Atlantic is not very exclusive, and I would wager it could be done "on the deck."

      Or perhaps they could jump over to South America and fly north through Central America. Believe me, there is really no defense down here, nor any decent tracking system. I believe the Mexican Air Force has something like 6 or 8 fighters; they are usually parked, taken out for airshows mostly, because they are expensive to maintain.

      Wouldn't it be a bummer to have an attack come from the south and later find out they simply flew to Brazil, northwest towards Panama, through Mexico, and up to the U.S.? Sure, fuel is a problem... But there are plenty of "unlisted" airfields in all of these countries for, ahem, "other" purposes...

      You think the next military attack on the U.S. is going to happen after a declaration of war? After a navy sailing across the oceans to our coast? Aint gonna happen... Or it's going to be terrorism or some sneaky operation like the one I just described.

      I'd prefer to be ready for that contingency. Pearl Harbor and WTC should show us that we are rarely attacked in an overt, anticipated manner. In fact, I believe the last such attack was the British in 1812, wasn't it? I can't remember if Mexico attacked us in Texas or if we started that... Either way, it's been a good 140-190 years since we've been frontally attacked.

  9. baptism of fire? by rhombic · · Score: 1

    Guess who's NOT flying to Philly in November?

    Go live with a system like this without any real world testing at a major airport? Nothankyoo

    --
    1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
    1. Re:baptism of fire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guess who's NOT flying to Philly in November?

      I dunno. Who?

    2. Re:baptism of fire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's operational in El Paso and now Syracuse. Now it's time for a Major airport.

  10. Very surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that the Slashdot editors didn't find some way to blame Microsoft for STARS.

  11. Not a very good article by alen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not much specifics. Basically says the union hates it and the FAA and Raytheon say it's OK. It lists a few problems, but doesn't say if it could be the result of user error. We all know how users always say the system crashed when it's really their mistake. I'm not saying it's good to go for production, but it could be another time when the union is afraid that it will automate too well and result in people's jobs being lost.

    1. Re:Not a very good article by nullard · · Score: 3, Informative

      It lists a few problems, but doesn't say if it could be the result of user error. We all know how users always say the system crashed when it's really their mistake

      Does it matter? I know I wouldn't care why the system crashed if I was in the plane. I'd just want to get home alive. If the system crashes because of user error, then that is a serious flaw.

      --


      t'nera semordnilap
    2. Re:Not a very good article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked with Raytheon on this project and hold a PPL. Doesn't make me an expert by any means, but I have exposure to the situation. I can assure you that the union isn't afraid of jobs being lost. No amount of computing power will replace the capacity to juggle planes like ATC jockeys do. I don't think the FAA, in the forseeable future, would allow replacement of actual humans when it comes to ATC duties, especially in the wake of recent events.

    3. Re:Not a very good article by elmegil · · Score: 2

      I'd say this sounds kinda of like how NASA and Morton Thiokol management said it was ok to set the Challenger off that morning. Unions can be many bad things, but when it comes to people's safety I'm thinking we want to go with the most conservative view on the subject.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    4. Re:Not a very good article by ceswiedler · · Score: 2

      Do you know how many times the conservative estimate is wrong? There was probably a conservative report of a potential terrorist attack each of the 365 days last year. Would you like the FAA to ground all airplanes every single day?

      Clearly, conservative is good when you're talking about people's lives. Also clearly, it is possible to be too conservative.

    5. Re:Not a very good article by gwernol · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Does it matter? I know I wouldn't care why the system crashed if I was in the plane. I'd just want to get home alive. If the system crashes because of user error, then that is a serious flaw.

      I'd say it matters a great deal. If the problems are user errors then the solution is training, not software fixes - or at least UI programming changes, not changes to the core software. My point is that the nature of the problems tells us what to fix.

      More to the point, because the original article doesn't give a single example of the sort of problems being reported it is very hard to evaluate the competing claims that the system is "seriously flawed" or "okay". Is this a union worried for its members' jobs crying wolf? Or is this a management team riding roughshod over the legitimate safety concerns of the people who know?

      We can't tell from an article that merely rehashes the claims of both sides without presenting any supporting evidence.

      --
      Sailing over the event horizon
    6. Re:Not a very good article by sphealey · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Basically says the union hates it and the FAA and Raytheon say it's OK. It lists a few problems, but doesn't say if it could be the result of user error.
      Here's an article that discusses these issues from the controller's perspective..

      I am aware of the high-tech world's hated for anything that smacks of unionization. However, everything I have heard from the pilot's side (particularly GA pilots) is that the FAA is, well, not doing too well these days. And that the front-line controllers are probably more right on these issues than their bosses.

      sPh

    7. Re:Not a very good article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could accidentally spill coffee and electrocute yourself while your computer is turned on! I say, for your safety, that you should turn it off and never post here again.

      Please?

    8. Re:Not a very good article by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 2

      The Yorktown incident comes to mind (and yes, I know that some claim it's not NT's fault -- but it's not relevant here).

      Someone was able to bring the ship to a complete halt because of user error. Do we really want the same sort of thing to happen in ATC?

      --
      Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
    9. Re:Not a very good article by goopie · · Score: 1
      No much on specifics? It lists a few problems? The FAA say it's okay? Did you read the same article I did??

      71 specific software problems that could prevent the system from operating as designed, or could threaten safety or security

      71 is hardly a few problems. And that sentence does not imply user errors, but rather faults of the program itself.
      And if FAA technicians refuse to certify the program for use, does it really matter what the executives do (ie forcing the implementation of the software even though it hasn't been certified).

      Blanche Necessary, a spokeswoman for the equipment builder, Raytheon Co., said the system was working well in El Paso and Syracuse.
      Brantley disagreed. While technicians certified the Syracuse system, he said they had no choice after the FAA invoked the emergency clause.
      "It was against their professional judgment. They don't feel it's safe," Brantley said. "The emergency clause was never intended for something like this. That was intended if there were an actual emergency."

      Hardly a winning endorcement.
    10. Re:Not a very good article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      come on mods, if there was ever an ionformative link it's this one.

    11. Re:Not a very good article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      We all know how users always say the system crashed when it's really their mistake

      Do we, now? You ought to read the Design of Everyday Things. It'll open your eyes.

    12. Re:Not a very good article by nullard · · Score: 2

      Someone was able to bring the ship to a complete halt because of user error. Do we really want the same sort of thing to happen in ATC?

      That was exactly my point. The system should not crash - ever. I don't care why it crashed. If it's user error then the system needs to be designed so that user error cannot bring it down.

      Management can blame the ATC workers all they want if the system crashes, but the fact is that the system is down and the planes are still in the air and need ATC.

      --


      t'nera semordnilap
    13. Re:Not a very good article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The response to the system has been site specific thus far. The article only quotes employees from the Syracuse site. The Syracuse Union has a reputation in the biz of being fairly hard to work with. Yes the system has problems, but it for the most part it performs within spec. Also, the system is far from complete. With a product this large, the FAA usually purchases development and production in phases.

      The El Paso site, has its problems, but the ATC's there seem to like it. It is a good deal better than the older systems currently in use. Another plus is that the FAA is finally getting on the ball and joining the rest of the world with the ASTERIX data format (used and developed primarily in Europe). Overall STARS is a much needed improvment

      -Anonymous Employee... not on STARS

  12. Better get those bugs ironed out quick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    along with GPS systems implemented in 3D, otherwise we'll have to wait even longer for the flying car to arrive.

  13. Hummm ... on that note .. by TheViffer · · Score: 3, Funny
    some useful web sites to think about for the next couple of months.

    Amtrak
    Greyhound
    Hertz

    --
    -- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
    1. Re:Hummm ... on that note .. by ferat · · Score: 1

      Sheesh, STARS must be bad if people are recommending Amtrak as a safer alternative.

  14. Wonderful by cnkeller · · Score: 4, Insightful
    FAA spokesman Scott Brenner said the only problems are the normal bugs that accompany any new technology.

    Except when by web browser crashes, it doesn't slam me into the ground in a firey mass of twisted, molten metal.

    Seriously, I thought design philosophies such as the CMM level 5 (used on the space shuttle design), should prevent things like this from happening. I'm sure it's safe to fly, but stories like this don't inspire me to full confidence.

    --

    there are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots

    1. Re:Wonderful by Makaer · · Score: 1


      I agree with you, this isn't exactly confidence inspiring news. Granted, the chances are probably very slim of a bug happening, and more slim that it becomes fatal. But I'm such a control freak that I certainly don't need yet another thing to be worried about on a flight!

      But then again, it isn't as if it shouldn't be reported on. I just like it when they tell me how statisticly improbably it is that it will effect me :)

    2. Re:Wonderful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the result of a web-browser crash?

    3. Re:Wonderful by GreyPoopon · · Score: 1
      I agree with you, this isn't exactly confidence inspiring news.

      Me too. It sounds to me like some cowboy made a commitment and doesn't want his pride hurt by not delivering, so they're going to deliver no matter how many lives it costs. You know, it's the same type of person you find when you take a look far enough up your management chain....

      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

    4. Re:Wonderful by Leven+Valera · · Score: 2

      CMM Level 5 is a fantastic set of coding standards. So much time is spent on each line that it's absolutely perfect by the time it leaves the building.

      The problem with Level 5 is the same as the benefit. So much time is spent on QC that govt. contractors, working for the lowest bidder, and Fed programmers, can't afford to work to that level of quality.

      C'est la vie.

      LV

      --
      Woot w00t w007.
    5. Re:Wonderful by ipjohnson · · Score: 1

      The plant where the work is done got is level 3 and I believe if everything goes as planned they are going for level 5 this december ... they have everything in place you just have to collect the right metrics for a while (6 mon - 1 year).

    6. Re:Wonderful by JordanH · · Score: 2
      • I thought design philosophies such as the CMM [cmu.edu] level 5 (used on the space shuttle design)

      CMM does not eliminate bugs, but it does aim to improve processes such that bugs could be far lessened.

      In any case, CMM (at any level) did not exist when the Space Shuttle software was implemented. As far as I can tell, the CMM first came into being around 1987. There were no CMM level 5 shops existing for years after that. Note also from this link that the study referenced on page 11 does show that defects (aka bugs) do get shipped on software system developed with CMM level 5, although they are much decreased.

      I believe the basic Space Shuttle software was implemented in the late 70s, independently, by groups at IBM and Rockwell. You might be referring to new software they now field for use with the Space Shuttle. I don't know.

    7. Re:Wonderful by Echemus · · Score: 1

      CMM isn't about high quality design, nor is it a "Design philosophy". All that CMM basially says that if you do something, you can do it again to the same standard within similar costs or time contraints.

      The safety of the systems on the Space Shuttle (and indeed in ATC systems) is more due to their fail safe configuration, design of the system and how much testing has been done. It would be perfectly possible for a company at CMM level 5 to make the worst software in the world and still maintain their level 5 status.

    8. Re:Wonderful by jdavidb · · Score: 2

      The official print copy of the CMM includes a case study about the space shuttle. It's a coworkers book and I haven't read it, so I'm not sure what the case study is really about. (I stick to the online PDF's, which don't include the case study.)

    9. Re:Wonderful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      according to the french it was a missile from an F-16

  15. The new system rocks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My internship with Raytheon was actually doing development work for this project. Although they were still behind schedule then, what they did have up and running at the time sure looked a hell of a lot better than the old system.

    On a side note, I talked with someone from the FAA about the old system and the hackability of it. I was told that they deemed the US ATC system virtually hack-proof for the simple fact that the hardware was so antiquated that anyone wanting to do malicious damage either wouldn't know how, or it would be such an arduous and tedious task that they'd eventually give up!

    1. Re:The new system rocks! by binaryDigit · · Score: 2

      I was told that they deemed the US ATC system virtually hack-proof for the simple fact that the hardware was so antiquated that anyone wanting to do malicious damage either wouldn't know how, or it would be such an arduous and tedious task that they'd eventually give up!

      Why would someone want to hack into it, it does such a good job of going down all by itself.

      Actually, this is kinda sad + interesting. If someone did hack the old system and brought it down, the atc'ers wouldn't be phased a bit, to them, just another atc system glitch.

      Unfortunately, it looks like the new system will follow in the old systems footsteps.

    2. Re:The new system rocks! by geekoid · · Score: 2

      they can deal with it going down, there are procedure in place. The problem is with false data.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:The new system rocks! by isaac · · Score: 2
      My internship with Raytheon was actually doing development work for this project. Although they were still behind schedule then, what they did have up and running at the time sure looked a hell of a lot better than the old system.

      Are you an air traffic controller? The salient question is not whether the Raytheon system looks better, but whether it works better. According to some of the people who actually have to work with the system in the real world on a daily basis, it doesn't work better.

      The old system wasn't pretty, or even the most reliable, but at least its most common failure mode leaves radar data on the screen, albeit without flight or transponder information. The STARS system, according to the DOT memo linked at the top, sometimes fails to display some planes AT ALL which seems a much, much more serious failure mode. I also wonder if STARS can suffer a computer outage and still display unadorned radar data (as the existing system typically can), or if it's entirely and totally computer dependent.

      -Isaac

      --
      I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
    4. Re:The new system rocks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry but the ATC union for the US is a real pain in the ass. The reason why it went over is because the union said they would not use the new system because it used qwerty keyboards instead of there usual abcdef.

      As for the tech .. I don't put to much faith in them (I've seen some of there so called bug reports).

    5. Re:The new system rocks! by binaryDigit · · Score: 2

      The problem is with false data.

      Yes, I was aware of that, just being a smart *ss. Plus, what are the odds of the system staying up long enough for anyone to do any type of decent hack anyway?

    6. Re:The new system rocks! by mickwd · · Score: 2

      Maybe it's hack-proof the same way my old K6-233 machine is hack-proof?

      It isn't connected to the internet.

    7. Re:The new system rocks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      heh... I'd like to see them try to go on strike

    8. Re:The new system rocks! by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Having seen both systems (i think) years ago at RDU, yes, the new systems do look better. However, functionally, they were a joke.

      The one I watched for a few minutes was tracking the runways. It was constantly screaming about collisions. The system was not aware of runway assignments for landing aircraft. It was also using a 2D vectored tracking system so it couldn't tell the aircraft would be several hundred feet underground before they would cross much less cross paths at the same altitude.

      To make them even worse, the display was unreadable in a lit room. In the control center, that's not a problem, but up in the tower, that's a huge problem. Which leads me to ask what's wrong with monochrome? Monochrome monitors have much higher contrast and resolution. They are cheaper (esp. for huge displays) and far less complex (thus easier to repair.)

      I cannot believe the amounts of time and money that have been wasted creating a new system. Frankly, a tracking system just isn't that damned complicated. Guys with slide rules built a system with, basically, duct tape and bubble gum that we still use today. But we, with our 2.4GHz Pentium processors and wall sized LCD monitors, cannot create anything nearly as functional. Give me a break.

    9. Re:The new system rocks! by thogard · · Score: 2

      The new system is based on the concept that the computer is doing the controlling and the people are doing the communinicating. The old system was based on the people doing the controllig and the computer helping them with a manual task. One of these situations is workable when the computer crashes and one isn't.

      So far Australia, UK and Tahiti all have had new systems that have crashed in the last year. It takes days to reroute and fix up the messes when London goes down. Australia has about as many planes in the air as the state of Missouri so they don't count as a busy airspace (but their rules and airspace plans make it look that way). Tahiti has some good controllers that can work around issues but because the new computer allows them to break the old rules (east is odd, west is even altitudes), there were two 747's flying at the same altittude and using GPS linked autopilots. In still air (like a calm night in the tropics), the GPS autopilot can get a 747 with in about 100 meters of the centerline between LAX and PPT VORs and the air pressure altimeter will keep the planes within 20 ft of their assigned altitudes. The new rules (only allowed by the new computer system) two planes were assigned to a collision course. Fortunately both planes had radar and they had options that didn't mess with other trafic but what happens when this same situation happens between Dulles and LaGuardia or between London and Hannover? In thouse cases if you change your course, you will go into areas that have been assigned to parallel flights.

      I've been making money coding for over 20 years and I can say that in some applications computers are evil. I think this is one of them.

    10. Re:The new system rocks! by c_g12 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I interned at Raytheon in Canada, working on their Canadian version CAATS. One thing I was impressed about was that the software was prepared for system failure by having redundant servers, independently running processes, and Emergency Modes. At least NAV Canada isn't making the mistake of shoehorning in CAATS; they're progressively phasing it in and will run it in parallel with the old system for a while.

  16. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by SirSlud · · Score: 2

    Even Open Source will suck hard if you deploy immature software. This sounds more like a case of bad management and premature deployment than any fault of their platform.

    Sorry, I'm not sure this can be turned into a pro-Linux thing. Of course, with my luck, you might just be trolling playfully.

    --
    "Old man yells at systemd"
  17. Who needs terrorists anymore? by corebreech · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Buggy air traffic control systems can fly just as many planes into buildings as even the most talented terrorist, be he Mossad, CIA or an amateur.

    I say paint big signs on the sides of all buildings near airports that read: "If you can read this, pull up NOW!"

    Oh, and duck a lot.

  18. Hrm.... subscription to Risks Digest required? by vkg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's the classic disaster scenario: the designers/programmers know it's hosed, the management forces them to ship anyway.

    You Have Been Warned.

  19. the difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    between when a plane is taken down by birdstrike and bugstrike is no geeks get fired for the former.

  20. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by alen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Only problem is that the problems aren't OS related, but application related. And the article doesn't say what system they run it on. Could already be Linux. Or it could be another UNIX, or NT/2000 or a mainframe on the backend.

  21. Can the courts get involved? by ViceClown · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I hate to suggest getting the courts involved because things seem to get bogged down there. Can the technicians - or better yet the public sue to block the FAA from using the new system? According to the article the FAA invoked their "emergency powers" to force the new system in place in Syracuse against the inspectors and certifiers' recomendations. This sounds like a horrible mess waiting to happen. Besides, if we grant the FAA emergency power - they might get crazy and build a death star! Ok, all kidding aside - I wonder if the public can sue to block the use of the new system until it actually passes tests and inspections. Anyone? Is this possible?????

    --
    Have a Happy.
    1. Re:Can the courts get involved? by fishbowl · · Score: 2

      >Can the technicians - or better yet the public >sue to block the FAA from using the new system?

      Why sue? The technicians themselves could have shown some backbone and refused to install the buggy system. (Ensuring that scabs don't install
      it anyway is a bit problematic, but it would instantly be bigger news).

      The public has all the power in the world, but absolutely NO consciousness of this. They could refuse to travel. One day would probably end the industry...

      It's not buggy enough to get the pilots' attention. If it was, not one single plane would take off. Scab pilot or no scab pilot.
      Well, the pilots with a deathwish would fly, but that's about it.

      Unfortunately, we as a society tend not to really want to change things or reduce the authority of bureaucracies, do we?

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    2. Re:Can the courts get involved? by ViceClown · · Score: 2

      I would guess that having the techs get in the way would be a federal time to which real prison time, if not certainly a pain in the ass would be attached. I think it's time to write the congress persons in your areas.

      --
      Have a Happy.
    3. Re:Can the courts get involved? by GreyPoopon · · Score: 1
      I think it's time to write the congress persons in your areas.

      In my case, I think I'm going to write the major Airlines that fly out of Philadelphia and let them know that I will be using other airports (and thus other airlines) starting on November 1 unless the items at issue are addressed.

      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

    4. Re:Can the courts get involved? by ViceClown · · Score: 2

      Good idea. I think Im going to forward this stuff on to our local news outlets in and around Philadelphia. I fly out of Phillly International on business occasionally. The way things run it's bad enough.. this could be a disaster :-(

      --
      Have a Happy.
  22. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by Steve+Cowan · · Score: 2

    That's ridiculous. Open Source software, as good as it may be, will not be used for mission-critical applications such as air traffic control in the foreseeable future, because there is little or no accountability.

    Think about it: the software fails, two planes crash into each other. Who's respsonsible? There is no direct line of accountability.

  23. Terrorists by t_allardyce · · Score: 1

    Why don't they just get afew Al'qaeda pilots to do the air traffic controlling. All they need is a couple of mobile phones, an AK and a camel. It costs much less than a billion dollars and is far more reliable

    --
    This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
  24. I'm tired of politicians playing with my life!!! by geneshifter · · Score: 1

    I'm sick of career politicians playing russian roulette with our lives. Forcing bad software down anyone's throat is bad, but to do this with systems that we depend on to stay alive as we fly, outrageous!!!

    We need to be smarter about whom we elect to congress people. No more old people ;)

  25. Tragedy waiting to happen? by fishbowl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People who are versed in such matters, including FAA technicians and ATC's, have expressed strong concerns that this system is ready.

    They aren't serious enough to (a.) refuse to follow the order to install it, or (b.) refuse to report to work if it is installed. So, if there's ever a disaster directly caused by the known flaws in this system, they're part of the same conspiracy. Whoever made this decision should have done so with the understanding that if they're wrong, they might be held accountable for more than just negligence.

    But, people want that paycheck more than they want to protect human lives. So pilots won't be refusing to fly, ATC's won't be halting takeoffs, and FAA managers won't be yelling fire.

    If these people really cared, we'd be seeing empty skies like Sept 12th.

    So either the systems aren't all that bad, or the people who have the power to stop the madness immediately are chickenshits.

    Let's start in Syracuse. Why didn't these "FAA technicians" put their money where their mouth is, and throw their wooden shoes into the machinery? Because they didn't, they should be the first people to answer for any accident that comes from this flawed system. They capitualted, didn't they?

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    1. Re:Tragedy waiting to happen? by ViceClown · · Score: 2

      Obviously we don't know what exactly happend in Syracuse but Im sure pressure was brought to bear. If the FAA invoked it's emergency powers then Im sure the techs couldn't do anything about it. Throwing their wooden shoes into the machinery would probably constitute a federal crime, however, so Im sure the techs weren't too keen on going to jail. It's scary, however, that the FAA would invoked it's emergency powers during something other than an emergency just to force something out the door. This is horse shit. The techs have to certify systems for a reason. Over riding them defeats the purpose of having them there in the first place!

      --
      Have a Happy.
    2. Re:Tragedy waiting to happen? by fishbowl · · Score: 2

      >Throwing their wooden shoes into the machinery
      >would probably constitute a federal crime,
      >however, so Im sure the techs weren't too keen
      >on going to jail.

      Then they didn't care enough... This is the essence of civil disobediance. Not defying authority in secret, hoping the status quo changes, but openly defying it, knowing that you do the noble thing by facing the consequences.

      No I honestly don't expect the FAA techs to give up their jobs and get arrested for what they believe in, any more than I expect everyone who smokes pot to speak up (or even to vote).

      But the bottom line is, they really don't think it's that dangerous, do they? If there was some *certainty* that the flaws in this system are dangerous enough to routinely cause air disasters,
      I bet you'd be seeing clear skies. Federal crime or no federal crime.

      Remember, you don't "just go to jail", you do get a hearing where you get to state your case. If *everyone* involved in this system had refused to take part in it, I think the FAA would be more interested in keeping the story OUT of the press and OUT of a courtroom.

      As it happens, it's just a sidebar story in the travel section. The system may nor be ready for production, but it's not bad enough for the whole industry to walk off, ask for the head of the person responsible, and march on the capitol steps either, now is it?

      Wake me up when it's front page news.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    3. Re:Tragedy waiting to happen? by ViceClown · · Score: 2

      Ok, I just read the memo to the FAA administrator regarding the state of the situation. The next site to get the new system is Philadelphia which is where I live. This is now an escallated issue for me and local news outlets are going to hear about it. Oh boy, here we go... :-)

      Cheerios, - JP

      --
      Have a Happy.
    4. Re:Tragedy waiting to happen? by rodgerd · · Score: 2

      Perhaps you should ask people who lived through the Reagan era. It was pretty clear then that Republican governments will do anything, up to and including bringing the millitary in, to force policies down ATCs throats.

  26. It's not a question if it has bugs... by 1984 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...or if it has more or less than existing systems (and workflows).

    It's: "Is there a net decrease in aircraft safety during movements?"

    If not, then it's not necessarily an issue.

    1. Re:It's not a question if it has bugs... by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2

      "Is there a net decrease in aircraft safety during movements?"

      Sure, the likelihood of accident increases when the air traffic controller is sitting on the toilet instead of in front of the radar screens, but that's true of EVERY traffic control system.

  27. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by oogoody · · Score: 1

    Yah you are crazy. If the software doesn't
    work it's probably not the OS, it's the
    application in which case linux won't make
    a difference. BTW, mozilla still crashes.
    So does linux. Not so good for air traffic
    control.

  28. Release early, release often by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The sites that use it will have to patch it, send back the patches, and -- tada! -- debugged software.

    1. Re:Release early, release often by Kredal · · Score: 3, Funny

      Dear Sir/Ma'am,

      We at the FAA are very sorry for the loss of your husband/wife/child aboard AA/United/whoever flight number 123. Their death, and the deaths of all 206 other passengers and crew was caused by a minor glitch in the software used to keep track of all commercial jets in the air. You will be relieved to know that this glitch has been fixed, and is available as a patch to the local air traffic control center.

      Thank you for your continued trust in the airline industry!

      Signed,
      FAA Bigwig

      --------

      I'd rather the software WORK before I trust my life with it, thank you very much.

      --
      Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
    2. Re:Release early, release often by RollingThunder · · Score: 2

      (four months later)

      Dear Sir/Ma'am,

      We at the FAA are very sorry for the loss of your husband/wife/child aboard AA/United/whoever flight number 987. The software glitch that caused their death has been identified as a previously occuring error, and a patch has been available for four months, but due to sysadmin laziness, was not installed, despite being easily available from our locked supply cabinet (which we have lost the keys for) at the bottom of a missing stairwell in the third subbasement of FAA headquarters.

    3. Re:Release early, release often by rainwalker · · Score: 1

      What's really scary is, the letter might read instead:

      "However, the bug that caused this crash has been classified as merely "Critical", and therefore will not be necessarily be fixed. Should crash reports continue to be added to this bug ID, it may be upgraded to "Very Critical", and therefore fixed in the near future. We apologize for you loss, and thank you for flying Major Airline! Hope to see you again soon!"

  29. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 1
    "Bing bang bong boing boom, Linux is running the major world airports. Due to the superior stability and dependibility of Open Source Software, Linux is now the poster boy for good production values."

    Think for a sec...

    Sure, Open Source == stable

    But Stable does not always equal a real solution.

    The only way to have a real working solution is to spend a lot of time properly engineering, building, testing and documenting a properly researched and coneived product.

    Open Source is not a magic bandaid that makes and computer related application work flawlessly. Please be warned that talk like this is called zealotry and it is what discredits open source and free software.

  30. Heh... by essiescreet · · Score: 1

    "I'm STILL glad I don't "fly the friendly skies"...."

    Anyone else see the irony in the statment and the sig?

  31. Article I read a while ago... by singularity · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I read an article about a year ago (I wish I could find it now) that talked about radar systems at smaller airports.

    Two systems had been developed, one by some guy who worked at such a smaller airport, and one was developed by someone like Raytheon Co.

    The system was basically this: The smaller airport would be fed the radar system from a nearby large airport. So if you were flying into Bowman Field, in Louisville, KY, they would be getting fed the signal from Louisville International Airport (SDF). It allowed smaller airports to have the technology of larger airports without having to expend as much money to get it.

    The gentlemen who had developed his sytem basically used existing wiring coming from the larger airport and simply sent the signal across that. He hooked up a screen, and had a perfectly good signal. The FAA went on to ask him (he was an FAA employee already) to develop the technology for wide-spread deployment, which he did.

    Along comes Raytheon Co. (or whomever the company was) and decides that is a lucritive contract to get. The company comes up with a system costing about ten times as much and about 80% as effective.

    Who does the FAA end up going with? Let me answer the question this way: The FAA emplyee did not contribute to any campaigns.

    --
    - (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
    1. Re:Article I read a while ago... by EdMcMan · · Score: 1
      Sounds like typical government operations...

      "Well, gentlemen, we were supposed to have a committee meeting to find the most cost effective solution to our problem, but, since this company's solution is over 10x as expensive, it must be the best! Anyone disagree? Meeting dismissed."

    2. Re:Article I read a while ago... by ipjohnson · · Score: 1

      Wrong ... Raytheon has been in the buisness of ATC for 20 years ....

      As for writting an ATC system by yourself ... yeah ok. Please put down the crack pipe and come back to reality.

    3. Re:Article I read a while ago... by Zurk · · Score: 1

      well..maybe you can tell these guys (www.openatc.org) that.

    4. Re:Article I read a while ago... by ipjohnson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      dont' worry I've seen it before and laughed then as well. I'm sorry but they have a few tools to aid an ATC system not be an ATC system.

      I've been doing ATC coding for a few years so I have a pretty good idea what goes into ATC systems of this size and I'm sorry but its hard enough to nail down requirements with 10 coders with excelent domain knowledge and 10 years experience. Its not something you can just throw your hat in the ring every great once in a while, its a job ... so yeah an open source indever is a joke.

    5. Re:Article I read a while ago... by sheckard · · Score: 2

      What you're talking about is called a BRITE scope. Basically it's used for smaller airports in the vicinity of the radar from larger airports. It's basically a repeater of the radar display from the larger airport, just slid over and centered over the smaller airport.

      This has some operational advantages (the biggest being that there's a radar display of local traffic, obviously), but has some glaring deficiencies. Basically it's used in areas where traffic loads don't justify the upkeep and maintenance of a radar installation. Contrary to popular belief, most smaller airports don't have any radar coverage. Airplanes can still operate safely in a non-radar environment, even while "in the clouds" (or IMC as it's called), there's just a different set of rules to follow.

    6. Re:Article I read a while ago... by WNight · · Score: 2

      You may have been coding ATC systems for a while, but that doesn't give you a lot of credibility in the issue of building a strong crashproof system.

      I come from an environment where if an embedded system crashes once in a year it's a failure. And this is only for telephony and other non-life critical applications.

      It's hard to imagine how a system can be so badly screwed up that it dies for a few hours at a time every few months.

      Even then, where's the backup system waiting to take over without any loss of functionality?

      People who work in glass design teams shouldn't throw stones...

  32. It's Airplane 3 !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Air traffic controller McCroskey: "Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue."

    Capt. Oveur ... "You ever been in a cockpit before?"
    Rossie Harris as Joey ... "No sir, I've never been in a plane before."
    Capt Oveur ... "You ever seen a grown man naked?"

    Find more at:
    http://new.wavlist.com/movies/001/

  33. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by JordoCrouse · · Score: 3, Informative

    Such a troll....

    Imagine: the buggy (and needless to say proprietary) flight control software is installed. Two months later, plane crashes are at an all time high. The FAA is in an uproar, the media is clamoring for a solution, America is in turmoil.


    I'm just not seeing this happen. First of all, the old systems sucked just as bad, and they're keeping them around for backups. Secondly, the biggest danger here is mid-air collisions, and modern aircraft have at least good enough proximity alarms to avoid a problem. I would be more worried about smaller private craft than commercial airliners.

    What's that? It's the phone. Who is it? Someone named Linux Torvalds...says he has a solution to our problems.

    Wrong. This is serious life or death stuff. Even with real time extensions and a VM that doesn't change every 30 days, Linux is neither designed nor intended to handle high load real time situations. Open source software just simply isn't hardened enough to do anything approaching the complexity of a major air traffic control system.

    Don't get me wrong - Linux is a good operating system, and its fun as hell to use and hack on, but a good engineer knows that there is a right tool for every job, and Linux just isn't a legimate choice for a high priority real time system like the ATC.

    --
    Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
  34. High tech not necessarily the best solution... by sphealey · · Score: 4, Informative
    Here's an interesting article from the New Yorker discussing why high-tech screens may not be the best solution for problems like ATC.

    Avweb has also had some interesting articles about England's experiement with new ATC systems.

    sPh

    1. Re:High tech not necessarily the best solution... by Chris+Johnson · · Score: 2
      What I find really fascinating about that is, I use my computer desktop like it was a real one.

      The orderly rows of icons are a Windows thing, and I use a Mac. The aspect of MacOS (8.6) that I use in this respect is 'clipping' files, and when I have bits of text that I need to remain aware of, I drag 'em to the desktop. I throw 'em away when they're no longer relevant. This is apparently just like normal desktops are used- in fact I've taken to keeping post-its and blank business cards around just to write tiny notes on- like the ATCs with their slips, I want a SMALL written note, not a manuscript.

      I wonder if anyone's ever going to work out something even better for this than MacOS text clipping drag-and-drop. If Microsoft did it, you'd be able to embed movies into the clippings, and they'd be kept in a complicated filing system that you could view and search 27 different ways and people would spend all their time changing the fonts and layout of their clippings ;)

  35. There's no cause for concern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    These are just minor bugs, teething problems. The good folks at ATC should be able to provide work-arounds without any worries.

    Don't let it stop you flying! We've gotta support our aviation industry. God bless it.

    1. Re:There's no cause for concern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you sure it's a good idea to put a system that's still teething into production?

      Maybe it would be better to wait until the bugs are a bit more shaken out?

      If we've used this system for 40 years or whatever, may it make sense to wait another 6 months if it is in the interest of safety?

    2. Re:There's no cause for concern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck the aviation industry.

    3. Re:There's no cause for concern by primus_sucks · · Score: 1

      Yeah, god bless all the weapons and explosives they let on board planes. God bless them for whining about how much it will cost to reinforce cockpit doors. God bless them for not installing explosive detection equipment so we won't have to wait in long lines. Also, if you're going to expose passengers to all this danger at least give out free beer so we won't care if we die, instead of charging $4 a fricking bottle.

  36. Gives a whole new meaning.. by RailGunner · · Score: 5, Funny

    This gives a whole new meaning to Blue Screen of Death..

    1. Re:Gives a whole new meaning.. by dieMSdie · · Score: 2


      Blue Skies of Death, anyone?

      --
      Don't throw your computer out the window, throw the Windows out of your computer!
  37. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most probably it runs on an HP V-Class machine running HP-UX, or on a VAX.

  38. But, security through obscurity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...does not work.

    1. Re:But, security through obscurity... by marauder404 · · Score: 1

      Yes, it does. But it's not sufficient.

  39. Raytheon Canada by asavage · · Score: 4, Informative

    Raytheon Canada has developed Canadian Automated Air Traffic System (CAATS) and Military Automated Air Traffic System (MAATS) for a Nav canada contract and are currently selling it to other countries as well. The software works really well (I have seen it firsthand). It was developed in Richmond, BC.

    1. Re:Raytheon Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Actually the canadian system is on the cutting edge but it actually doesn't work that well ... It has some real perfomance issues (can't handle enough tracks to be used in high traffic areas).

      STARS is based off of a code base that was developed in sudbury and marlboro MA for 15 years. It maybe old but STARS sister programs run some of the highest traffic area in the world (Germany, amsterdam ... few other countries as well). I actually work on the german product and have done some research on CAATS and MAATS in the past few month.

    2. Re:Raytheon Canada by ksplatter · · Score: 1

      You Bring up a very interesting point my friend! I myself have worked many hours on the STARS project (US terminal area system) and I now know a thing or 2 about air traffic.

      First let me say that the Canadian projects are without a doubt state of the art systems that would do a great job in the US. The only problem is that there is no way that NATCA (the National Air Traffic Controllers Union) would deem such a system safe for use. See most of this shit in the news is all political. Raytheon once designed a US terminal system for about the proposd budget but unfortunately the union would not accept the system. They told congress that the system was unsafe to control traffic.

      They did this because the system had things like a QWERTY keyboard and a mouse. See, US controllers don't use them they use ABC keyboards and track balls. They felt that they would rather use a system that has been made worse to be more like the old system then to take advantage of new technology. That is why the program is so overbudget because we redesigned the whole systems CHI (compuer human interface) to make this new high tech system look like exactly what they have now. (people inherently fear the extinction of there functional role in society) Technology should be good but not too good :)

      I actually know many air traffic controllers and believe it or not they are dying to get this system in the field. Compared to what they have now this is like going from a commodore 64 to a Pentium4. I am just saying that there are many people who think this system is great and support it 100%. Unfortunately there are also lots of people out there who have there own adgendas that get in the way of actually doing right with taxpayer dollars.

    3. Re:Raytheon Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CAATs *is* on the leading edge, and has an amazing software architecture. I've had it running with 1000+ tracks no problems. How many tracks is enough?? The problem seems to be people not wanting to adopt new technology, scuttlebutt and politics.

  40. Sounds like a book I just read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This sounds like something right out of a novel called "Tracon" I read a couple of weeks ago. I thought that the book was very good, but the afterword on the PATCO strike needed some help. See
    http://www.japphire.com/tracon.htm for more information.

  41. Always having to reinvent the wheel by Kagato · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem with STARS is they have to introduce a whole new way of doing everything. I saw a neat discovery channel thing on it and they showed the simulated testing. (It failed certain parts of the testing by the way.)

    Here's my gripe. The air traffic control system has been sucking the big one since the 80s (or even before that.) Old technology layered with even older technology. Every other year dateline or 60 minutes does a story on how much it all sucks. Alright, so what's the solution?

    Well, according to the contracting some new whiz bang solution that is the end all of be all. So where are we, a couple billion down the hole for the a POS.

    What needed to happen is not a total whiz bang solution. It needed to start with a system that emulated everything that the current system did using current technology. Something modular (so you could add new features later on) and something that could scale to meet larger needs. Oh, and something that could have been rolled a good ten years ago.

    But noooo, that's too simple, and doesn't put a couple billion into the contractors pocket. Of course the ass clowns in congress are just as much to blame as they approved this.

  42. The secret of the Missing Stripe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, it is not a missing Delaware. They are just giving the twin state of Carolina only one stripe. More and more it is considered one state: look at the NHL and NFL teams for it.

  43. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by geekoid · · Score: 3

    bull.
    who is accountable if Windows crashes? no one, thats who.
    at least woth OS, you can have developer look at the code, address issues. If your talking about getting an existing operating system and using it, you can begin your testing process sooner, and cheaper.
    OTOH you can write the code from scratch, and open it up.

    With OS you can have a team, assign resposibilities, and have someone in charge of the OS who will be hel accountable. You can not do that with a 3rd party closed spource product, especially from a company the size of MS.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  44. Flight Simulator by mgarraha · · Score: 1

    To live up to their slogan "As Real As It Gets," Microsoft may have to modify Flight Simulator 2004 so that 1 out of 3 times you contact ATC, you hear HAL 9000 sing "Daisy, Daisy..."

  45. Union does not like it? Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The union not liking it says something in favor of it. Remember the PATCO strike in the 1980s? The overpaid slobs actually held air safety hostage and made things more dangerous in their illegal exortion attempt. Some of these wreckless guys were let back on the job recently. If it is safe and efficient, they oppose it.

  46. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by Dimensio · · Score: 2

    There's something amusing about that line of reasoning: open source can't be used, not because it's necessarily inferior to closed source but because if something goes wrong we won't be able to blame anyone...

    ...anyway, you're confusing open source with anonymous development. Open source simply means that the source is available for modification if necessary. If you keep track of who makes what mods, then you could track a mistake either to the original author or to someone who screwed up some code in their revision of the software.

  47. Mossad terrorists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are no Mossad and CIA terrorists, nor have their ever been. Are you a member of the Talaban or something?

    1. Re:Mossad terrorists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd join the Taliban, if only they allowed non-towelheads to apply. As it stands, I will have to remain a member of the Taliban Infidel's Auxilliary.

  48. Did the plane crash or truly crash? by digital_freedom · · Score: 1

    The FAA program office is now distinguishing between trouble reports it classifies as critical, which will not necessarily be fixed, and those that it considers "truly critical" that will be fixed. The criteria for making the distinction between "critical" and "truly critical" hardware and software problems is not self-defining and is vague, especially for an air traffic control system.

    When the bugs mean the possible deaths of hundreds of people and millions of dollars in damages for the airlines, you'd think that the FAA would try to get this program "truly correct". If I were living in Philadelphia, I would expect longer delays at the airport and the occasional flight traffic controller going Postal at an airport.

  49. The Blame Game by Smelly+Jeffrey · · Score: 1

    At least we won't have to blame our plane crashes on terrorists anymore. We can just blame the buggy software. The FAA is making the world a much better place indeed.

  50. All your airspace are belong to us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't this system be replaced by Palm Pilots running a BASIC version of David Ahl's "Lunar Lander" ?

    Once the planes are out of control and plummeting, you can drop the Palm Pilot and pick up the controller and play "Missile Command"

  51. It's a whitewash ... on purpose! :-) by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

    Raytheon's spokeswoman is Blanche Necessary...

    1. Re:It's a whitewash ... on purpose! :-) by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Based on what program officials now tell us about FAA's intentions, we are concerned with the inexactitude and ambiguity inherent in the "not perfect but acceptable" standard, as well as the implications it may have for air traffic controllers and maintenance technicians.

      Looks like the George W. dictionary was used as well.

  52. Flight Safety. by lionchild · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'll try not to stray offtopic here.

    In the past, I've flown alot for business. I enjoy flying, actually, even in some of the cramped up economy spaces.

    Before 9/11, I wasn't overly concerned about our planes running into things. The skyes are awfully big up there, and cities, aside from the obvious ones like NY and LA, are pretty easy to miss or avoid with all the land between them.

    And as I think about it, the one thing that takes away my fears about a plane running into something, is that guy in the very front seat of the bus. Y'see, I know several pilots, and none of them are foolish enough to believe the ATC, when they're looking out the front of the plane and see a building comming at them quickly.

    These are men and women who have, (proportedly), been highly trained and qualified to get us from point A to point B, safely. And I know most, if hopefully not all of them are smart enough to make good decisions when what they see doesn't match what the ATC is telling them.

    In the same vein, there are men and women, who hopefully have good training and good instincts about being ATC's, that when a bug comes up, they're smarter than it is, and will make decisions that avoid the loss of life and property.

    Sometimes, alas, you must trust the User to do the right thing. And in this case, we get Trained Users to do the job. Let them do their job.

    --
    Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
    1. Re:Flight Safety. by sheckard · · Score: 2

      ATC does not separate planes from buildings.

      Or even other planes in certain circumstances. That's the pilot's responsibility at all times: see and avoid. Pilots are real good at it. That's why you don't hear about many mid-air collisions anymore, especially on airliners with the high-tech boxes that call out known traffic, and even bark out instructions on how to move out of the way (TCAS.)

  53. FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
    I worked close to this project (down the hall) for many years. Believe me, STARS has been tested for the past 4 years at least. They FAA has several phases of tests that they perform on new equipment that can take many years to complete. The FAA wouldn't let this out the door if it was not ready and not necessary to replace all the old equipment out in the field that is falling apart, and older than many people who read Slashdot.


    Of course, the air traffic controller's union is upset about this. Most air traffic controllers have a very short career (burn-out) and don't want to have to learn a new way of doing things.

    1. Re:FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Preach on brotha ... mod this shit up.

      p.s. Work in Marlboro by any chance?

  54. If you are a greenie.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    then you are not supposed to use Mozilla intil the government takes it over and then requires tax payments to keep it going. No independent sector under the Green Party system; it is all about government control.

    1. Re:If you are a greenie.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, that's what I meant. Thank you.

      I was noticing how similiar the Green Party is to my favorite, the Fascists. But whenever I bring it up the Greens/Socialists/Communists all get pissed off! It was proven perfect before, maybe we can move back to the Green way soon.

  55. Anyone really surprised? by raretek · · Score: 1

    This is the US government, as led by born and bred politicians, what else was anyone expecting? After Prozac, Nutrasweet, and the ongoing tobacco fiascos, it stuns me that people can be so stupid as to expect anything approaching logic and reason from our government.

    --
    Show me an effect without cause and then I'll believe in chaos.
  56. Looks ok to me...so far... by peterdaly · · Score: 5, Interesting

    -- quote
    According to the article the FAA invoked their "emergency powers" to force the new system in place in Syracuse against the inspectors and certifiers' recomendations. This sounds like a horrible mess waiting to happen.
    --

    Well, I work in a building right in line with the SYR main runway. I can tell how lined up a plane is by what section of the parking lot they fly over (we are talking a 20 car lot.) The planes are so close I can see which ones need to be repainted or washed.

    So far...I'm still alive, that's a good sign. Also, recently I have seen some planes lining up with the runway much closer than before, I wonder if that means the controllers can handle the traffic better? That would be a good sign for if the system as a whole if it is rolled out in other places.

    Anyway, when the system in SYR has problems, I'll be either the first...or last...to notify slashdot.

    -Pete

    1. Re:Looks ok to me...so far... by Kredal · · Score: 3, Informative

      At the point that they're that close, it's all on the pilots as to where they land. The controller will tell them to circle until it's their turn to land.

      In busier airports at night (think LAX, DFW, ATL) you can see the planes lined up 2 minutes apart. That's what the controllers do. The pilots are responsible for centering themselves on the runway, and landing without crashing into the ground.

      --
      Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
    2. Re:Looks ok to me...so far... by Sabalon · · Score: 2

      Living on the approach path to ATL, it was very errie on 9/11 being outside and not seeing all the planes lined up and hearing them.

    3. Re:Looks ok to me...so far... by Kredal · · Score: 2

      Ya, I bet it felt a lot like the first dream sequence in "Vanilla Sky" where he's running around Times Square, and he's the only person there...

      --
      Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
  57. Reality Check - from a student pilot. by noahbagels · · Score: 5, Informative

    Please read:
    The ATC / Control Tower is never responsible for controlling the aircraft, nor actually guiding aircraft between hills/etc. Even in a busy place like the San Francisco Bay, the ATC advises of traffic and coordinates inbound and outbound traffic lanes to keep traffic well spaced. ATC typical instructions, even with hills very nearby (1nm) usually consist of a destination landmark or vector, and an altitude.

    Not to rant or anything, but from what I understand, the current system is incredibly out of date. It is important, not only to update the ATC gear, but that the FAA institude a complete overhaul of avionics. It is now possible with less than $1000 of gear to have in-flight collision detectors based on GPS, but this is uncommon on private aircraft costing $100k+.

    Just my 2 cents.

    1. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya, I have to agree. I'm a pilot (in fact, I flew to work just this morning) and I also fly mostly in Northern California.

      Of course, your right that the pilot is *always* responsible for the flight.

      ATC is serious stuff, and IFR flying is much more dependent upon ATC than VFR. In IFR, ATC is responsible for maintaining traffic separation. Of course, most commercial carriers file IFR, even in nice weather (they like class A airspace).

      To suggest that an ATC outage automatically implies airplanes flying into the ground is just ignorant. It increases risk of collision (of course) but it's not an automatic death sentence.

      FWIW, just fly from SF to Portland. Oakland will probably loose you for a few miles north of Mt. Shasta. It's so common, the ATC warns you of it before it happens. No ATC but the planes don't automatically crash. (amazing!)

      Also, if any of you are ATC - thanks for all the help!!

    2. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FWIW, just fly from SF to Portland. Oakland will probably loose you for a few miles north of Mt.

      Lose! One o!

    3. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by OpMindFck · · Score: 1

      >ATC typical instructions, even with hills very nearby (1nm) usually consist of a destination landmark or vector, and an altitude.

      my god. how can anyone fly with nanometer precision? what happens when the pilot sneezes?

      --
      Sipping on Jolt and Dew. Laid back. With my mind of my cubicle and my cubicle on my mind.
    4. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Nautical mile. Quit assuming that your frame of reference is the only one out there.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    5. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF are you TA

      I HNI what IFR,ATC,VFR means

      plz explain

      HAND HTH etc.

    6. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by kcbrown · · Score: 2
      The ATC / Control Tower is never responsible for controlling the aircraft, nor actually guiding aircraft between hills/etc.

      Uh, not quite.

      What you say is true for aircraft operating under VFR (Visual Flight Rules), but not for aircraft operating under IFR (Instrument Flight Rules). When you're operating IFR, if the controller gives you a vector, you follow the vector.

      Now, that said, it's still the pilot's responsibility to clear terrain, but without GPS-based terrain avoidance it's damned near impossible to guarantee terrain avoidance when you're IFR, in the soup, and on vectors unless you're intimately familiar with the terrain and your own location.

      The bummer of it is that it's when you're relatively low (thus closer to terrain), in relatively busy airspace (you're talking to approach control, who's usually talking to a bunch of different airplanes, and it's a party line so you have to continuously monitor the ATC frequency listening for your callsign), and are having to do a lot of different things (like listen to the ATIS [Automated Terminal Information Service] at the destination airport to get weather, runway info, etc., brief the approach you'll be making into the destination airport, set up the radios and the navigation instruments for the approach, etc., all while listening to the ATC party line frequency for instructions) that it's most likely that you'll be receiving vectors from ATC. That means that if you're in the soup, you have very little time to handle terrain avoidance, which is why GPS-based terrain avoidance gear is such good stuff to have.

      Bottom line is that ATC can vector planes into terrain, and it actually has done so occasionally. It doesn't happen often. But it happens. And that's with all the equipment working, at that.

      Yeah, it could be a lot better. But the FAA governs aviation with an iron fist, so you're only allowed to use technology that it deems suitable. And the FAA moves at a glacial pace when it comes to allowing new technology in airplanes. It's why modern general aviation airplanes are still using aircooled piston engines that were literally designed back in the 1940's, and why everyone is still using AM radios for communications.

      --
      Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
    7. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VFR = Fly by vision
      IFR = Insturment Flying
      ATC = air traffic control

    8. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by thogard · · Score: 1

      I've see quite a few $60,000 planes with more than a quarter million dollars worth of gear installed in their dash. A good NAV/COM radio will set you back 4 to 8 grand. A stromscope will go for at least 20k. Considering most of the general aviaion aircraft that are now flying were purchased for less than $20,000 its going to be quite hard to get thier owners to put in a expensive gear. The major expense of typical Cessna purchased used 15 years ago is the replacement engines and they are about 20 grand and last almost 2000 hours.

    9. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by phliar · · Score: 2
      The ATC / Control Tower is never responsible for controlling the aircraft ... Even in a busy place like the San Francisco Bay, the ATC advises of traffic and coordinates inbound and outbound traffic lanes to keep traffic well spaced. ATC typical instructions, even with hills very nearby (1nm) usually consist of a destination landmark or vector, and an altitude.
      If you're VFR! If you're IFR (and I'm an instrument rated pilot, flying in the San Francisco Bay Area) you bet ATC "controls" you. I put that in quotes, because as an instructor of mine once said, "you are the one who's going to die if he vectors you into a hillside." That said, if you're IFR (every airline flight is IFR) then ATC separates you from other traffic [airline traffic stays in Class B airspace], and gives you radar vectors. "Cherokee 12345, vector for traffic, turn left heading 275." However, the gist of your argument holds: regardless of what ATC will or won't do, no pilot should let ATC put him or her into a bad situation.

      Sadly, a couple of years ago two pilots in the area flew a vector into a hill. They thought they were IFR, the controller thought they were VFR; he gave them a vector and then as his workload increased, he forgot about them. The lesson is: fly every ATC instruction as though he's trying to kill you. Sure, it's his responsibility, but it's your life.

      It is important, not only to update the ATC gear, but that the FAA institude a complete overhaul of avionics.
      Not so fast!!! The airplanes I like to fly (tube-and-fabric taildraggers, sailplanes, aerobatics) cost $20,000. TCAD-like [collision avoidance] devices are around $20,000 installed. See the problem?

      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    10. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by jasontheking · · Score: 1

      http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/

      the parent poster to yours used the internationally accepted SI units. Noahbagels didn't.

      as far as measurement is concerned, it IS the only frame of reference. Making mistakes with it causes things like smashing stuff into planets.

    11. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by hollanan · · Score: 1

      I would justl like to draw your attention to 14 CFR 91.3, sections a and b.

      91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

      (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

      (b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

      The pilot... not the controller is responsible for the aircraft. The pilot can, if he deems necessary disregard any instructions from ATC he believes are unsafe or would put the aircraft at risk. This works whether your IFR or VFR.

    12. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is still your responsibility to navigate, using the proper charts.

      Well, maybe it isn't for you bumbling civilians but it is for those of us in the military.

    13. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by monkeydo · · Score: 2

      airline traffic stays in Class B airspace

      Did they change the airspace rules again? Last time I checked most airlines fly above FL180, in Class A airspace. Of course they also have to fly in Class B (at the largest airports) or Class C (large airports) airspace if they want to land, and they'll have to fly through Class E airspace to get there.

      The lesson is: fly every ATC instruction as though he's trying to kill you. Sure, it's his responsibility, but it's your life.

      No it isn't, and that attitude has killed hundreds of pilots. I suggest you reread the FAR's. As PIC it is always your responsibility to fly the plane safely no matter what the guy on the gournd tells you.

      The airplanes I like to fly (tube-and-fabric taildraggers, sailplanes, aerobatics) cost $20,000. TCAD-like [collision avoidance] devices are around $20,000 installed. See the problem?

      I don't see the problem. The FAA already mandates aircraft carry certain equipment in controlled airspace. If they mandate TCAD for certain airspace, you'll either have to comply or stay out.

      --
      Si vis pacem, para bellum
      The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
    14. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by kcbrown · · Score: 1
      It is still your responsibility to navigate, using the proper charts.

      I believe I said that already. Despite that, the fact remains that when you're being vectored around by ATC is, in general, exactly the most difficult time to keep track of your position relative to terrain.

      Well, maybe it isn't for you bumbling civilians but it is for those of us in the military.

      No, it is for us "bumbling civilians", too. But unlike you military guys, us "bumbling civilians", at least in general aviation, don't have the benefit of having a person on board (the navigator) whose sole purpose in life is to figure out where we are or, in the case of single pilot operations (which is what most of us general aviation civilians engage in), a terrain following radar.

      Oh, and lest you get too cocky, remember that it was a military guy flying the B-17 that crashed into the Empire State Building way back in the day.

      --
      Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
    15. Re:Reality Check - from a student pilot. by OpMindFck · · Score: 1

      thank you for your insightful yet non-reactionary response. next time i feel like being told that i am not a humorous individual, i'll be sure to look you up.

      --
      Sipping on Jolt and Dew. Laid back. With my mind of my cubicle and my cubicle on my mind.
  58. You either, evidently... by bashibazouk · · Score: 1

    The other joke here is you still have a few orders of magnitude better chance of death by car crash on the way to the airport than death by airplane crash. Do you not drive as well?

    1. Re:You either, evidently... by ThePlague · · Score: 0

      The fundamental difference, though, is that when you are driving, you are more in control of your own destiny, rather than just being cargo.

    2. Re:You either, evidently... by bashibazouk · · Score: 1

      Considering most drivers out there, that doesn't make me feel any better. Trained operator or the usual car driving flunky...hmmm...let me think about this...I think I'll take the odds and fly on this one.

    3. Re:You either, evidently... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >you still have a few orders of magnitude better >chance of death by car crash

      Your chances of dying along with 150 others, by wrecking into terrain from an altitude of 20,000 feet, and spending your last moments being consumed by jet fuel are a whole lot higher in an airplane than in a car, though.

    4. Re:You either, evidently... by bashibazouk · · Score: 1
      Your chances of dying along with 150 others, by wrecking into terrain from an altitude of 20,000 feet, and spending your last moments being consumed by jet fuel are a whole lot higher in an airplane than in a car, though.

      Considering that there are few cars running on jet fuel and even fewer that hold 150 people, your statements are true. But, it's the DEATH part that I would like to avoid (or at least put off for as long as possible). Plus if I have to go I would prefer to do it in a spectacular fashion rather than a run-of-the-mill car crash. Couple of seconds of jet fueled inferno is much preferred to hours of twisted metal and trauma units IMHO.

    5. Re:You either, evidently... by D0wnsp0ut · · Score: 1

      Do you not drive as well?

      Actually, I drive....once a week...late at night. I commute to/from work via metrorail (subway).

      --
      "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither!"
  59. conspiracy theory by shren · · Score: 2

    I wonder if they're pushing it through because the new software has some nice government supplied code to send the Air Force a fax in the case of a dangerously misdirected plane. If the system does that, then the use of the emergency powers act would be justified because the new system provides "critical homeland security" - not that they'll tell us about it or anything.

    One bug later, and your plane is reported as speeding towards the Sears tower and you're shot down by a fighter craft.

    --
    Maybe the state's highest function is to grind out insoluble problems. (Zelazny, Hall of Mirrors)
  60. Five Miles Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Five Miles Out (Mike Oldfield)

    What do you do when your falling,
    You've got 30 degrees and you're stalling out?
    And it's 24 miles to your beacon;
    There's a crack in the sky and the warning's out.

    Don't take that dive again!
    Push through that band of rain!

    Five miles out, Just hold your heading true.
    Got to get your finest out.
    You're Number 1, anticipating you.

    Climbing out. Just hold your heading true.
    Got to get your finest out.
    You're Number 1, anticipating you.

    Mayday! Mayday! Mayday! Calling all stations!
    This is Golf-Mike-Oscar-Victor-Juliet
    IMC CU.NIMB...icing, In great difficulty, over.

    The traffic controller is calling,
    "Victor-Juliet, your identity.
    I have you lost in the violent storm!
    Communicate or squawk 'Emergency'!"

    Don't take that dive again!
    Push through that band of rain!

    Lost in static, 18,
    And the storm is closing in now. Automatic, 18!
    (Got to push through!) Trapped in living hell!

    Your a prisoner of the dark sky,
    The propeller blades are still!
    And the evil eye of the hurricane's
    Coming in now for the kill.

    Our hope's with you, Rider in the blue.
    Welcome's waiting, we're anticipating
    You'll be celebrating, when you're down and braking.

    Climbing out. (Climbing, climbing)
    Five miles out. (Climbing, climbing)

    Five miles out, Just hold your heading true.
    Got to get your finest out....(Climbing, climbing)

    Five miles out, Just hold your heading true.
    Got to get your finest out....(Climbing, climbing)

    Climbing out. Just hold your heading true.
    Got to get your finest out.... (Climbing, climbing)

    Five miles out, Just hold your heading true.
    Got to get your finest out.... (Climbing, climbing)

    Climbing out. Just hold your heading true.
    Got to get your finest out....
    (Climbing, climbing)

    Climbing out. Just hold your heading true.
    Got to get your finest out....

  61. Some one that worked on it... by I_am_God_Here · · Score: 1

    My professor worked on this project before going to teach. He often uses this project as an example of how not to do things.

    --

    Capitalism: unequal distribution of wealth
    Socialism: equal distribution of poverty
  62. protests by dirvish · · Score: 1

    If the technicians and air traffic controllers are protesting the change it probably isn't a good idea. IMHO power users, the air traffic controllers in this case, are the best judge of software. If they think changing is a bad idea they should reconsider.

    1. Re:protests by drachenstern · · Score: 1

      while i agree with what you are saying, i don't know that all users are trained users. heck, not all programmers are good systems analysts, although we should all be before we get a job, because one skill set relies heavily on the other.

      having said all that, as a fully competent programmer, i am looking to goto work for the FAA here by the end of the year as an ATC, so by the end of the year (which seems forever to most /.'ers, think next computer line release by Dell, Compaq, etc), i should be able to let everyone know exactly how the bugs affect the system.

      and here's a not to most people's argument that they may not realize [hey, why not comment a week and a half after the story leaves the front page, eh?] most of these ATC's are leaving their jobs due to retirement (think gov't 20 yrs) and so this system comes along right in the face of new, well, faces coming to work for the FAA

      $.02
      ciao

      --
      2^3 * 31 * 647
  63. Re:I'm tired of politicians playing with my life!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No more Christians or lawyers. And NO ACTORS!!

    Former pro wrestlers might be OK though; Jesse Ventura's doing a kick-ass job in Minnesota.

  64. Now that'w what I call a "Blue screen of death!" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject ;-)

  65. been there by tornater · · Score: 1

    I work for a government agency and this is par for the course. Contractors routinely give us software that is not ready for prime time. Government workers then become guinea pigs and bug-chasers for the contractors. If someone creative within the government makes a useful product, it is almost always handed to a contractor who then sells it back to us. Contracts routinely go over budget and the same pet contractors seem to win all the bids. Several higher-ups often "retire" and go to work for contractors which they did special favors for. Although this is technically illegal, there's a loophole for justifying it if it's "for the good of the country." What I'm trying to say is that the government is in the business of corporate welfare, and government contractors generally suck.

  66. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by GLX · · Score: 1

    That's an unfair statement to make.

    Let's say I buy a closed-source HP-UX system to run Dave's ATC system on, and in my contract with HP I say "I'm expecting 5-9's uptime of this system per year, and if not, you are held accountable".

    Just because the default Windows license doesn't include any accountability doesn't mean that you can't get an OS or application that *does* have accountability - it's all in the contracts.

    Going by your logic, Arthur Andersen is in no way responsible for the Enron mess - all they did was work the books - how they worked them is irrelevant.

    --
    Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
  67. Raytheon... by jmce · · Score: 1
    ... also proud suppliers of mass murder terrorism devices.
    For hard cash, we will lie and deceive
    [...]
    And dealing in death is the nature of the beast
  68. Bad joke by BlowCat · · Score: 2

    It's much more likely that something will be misreported to a regular (not hijacked) flight. You might dislike Sears Towers, but misreporting its location is not a solution.

  69. Re:I'm tired of politicians playing with my life!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    "We need to be smarter about whom we elect to congress people. No more old people ;) "
    Agreed! Better to hire college students -- get 'em while they're young and still know everything.

  70. Re:I'm tired of politicians playing with my life!! by delcielo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Although I wouldn't want to minimize the impact of problems at our radar control facilities, it should be noted that there are procedures for dealing with this sort of thing.

    Traffic flow procedures, and FAR's allow for all kinds of flexibility here. Controllers can stack airplanes up in holding patterns while they sort out priorities. Traffic that the primary airports couldn't handle could be sent to reliever airports. Enroute traffic could be sent to alternate airports, etc. In an emergency, the FARs even allow a pilot to deviate from the regs to the extent necessary to safely complete the flight. In other words, if it was an emergency, the Captain could break his flight plan and head for the nearest suitable runway.

    The dangerous time is the time between the failure, and the full blown utilization of alternate methods. Even this, however, is helped by separation standards, standard arrival and departure routes, TCAS, etc.

    In other words, they won't just fall out of the sky. If I were an airline Captain, and I found myself in a situation where the destination airport's radar was out, and I felt nervous about the safety of that airport's traffic environment, I'd start by asking for an ammended clearance to some alternate destination. If that didn't work, I might just declare an emergency and divert myself.

    Contrary to what you see in Die Hard movies, the system is pretty flexible, and the people who use it are intelligent and capable.

    --
    Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
  71. Anti-terrorism devices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, that article shows that Raytheon provides weapons used in anti-terrorist operations.

    1. Re:Anti-terrorism devices by jmce · · Score: 1

      ... and in any case, "military instalations" were the alleged targets. If you summarize the article like that and like to use language consistently, will you refer to military installations in your country (whatever it is) as "terrorist installations"? Or is "terrorist" simply the Iraqi word for "military"?

      Oh, well. And the rest will always be "collateral damage", of course.

  72. FAA's STARS runs Solaris by mdeslaur · · Score: 1

    The new system runs on Sun Solaris with off-the-shelf hardware. If it runs on Solaris...it can run on Linux...

    1. Re:FAA's STARS runs Solaris by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't count on it. It probably runs on a really ancient version of Solaris with some funky Ada compiler. Have you tried porting GNOME to OpenWindows lately?

    2. Re:FAA's STARS runs Solaris by pastyboy · · Score: 1

      CAATS runs HP UX 11.0 unix.

  73. with all due respect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ATC advising you in your two seater turbo prop plane is way less important to me than ATC advising an airliner full of people. The commercial airports are congested, planes fly close to one another, and fuckups are dangerous with big planes.

    1. Re:with all due respect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your airliner runs into a little airplane, everybody falls down. How unimportant is it now?

  74. 1.7 Billion dollars? by joshv · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We need a new way of conducting business. If you used off the shelf components and standard programming environments I cannot possibly imagine how you could spend 1.7 billion and under deliver. I imagine that Raytheon decided that in order to enrich the corporate coffers they needs some proprietary hardware and weird development environments noone but Raytheon employees are familiar with.

    It's a shame really. Yes, this a complex problem, but it's just not a billion dollar problem. The issue is that the government's been asking the wrong people to solve it.

    What they should have done is approached some small to midsized software design shops and asked them for initial estimates and designs. Give the top 10 of those $1 million each to flesh out the design and prototype it.

    Then take the pick of the litter and run with it. I betcha the end result would work better and cost less than the POS raytheon delivered.

    -josh

  75. ATC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NAME
    atc - air traffic controller game

    SYNOPSIS atc [-u?lstp ] [-gf game name ] [-r random seed ]

    DESCRIPTION Atc lets you try your hand at the nerve wracking duties of the air traffic controller without endangering the lives of millions of travelers each year. Your responsibilities require you to direct the flight of jets and prop planes into and out of the flight arena and airports. The speed (update time) and frequency of the planes depend on the difficulty of the chosen arena.

    OPTIONS

    -u Print the usage line and exit.
    - Same as -u.
    -l Print a list of available games and exit. The first game name printed is the default game.
    -s Print the score list (formerly the Top Ten list).
    -t Same as -s.
    -p Print the path to the special directory where atc expects to find its private files. This is used during the installation of the program.
    -g game Play the named game. If the game listed is not one of the ones printed from the -l option, the default game is played.
    -f game Same as -g.
    -r seed Set the random seed. The purpose of this flag is questionable.

    GOALS
    Your goal in atc is to keep the game going as long as possible. There is no winning state, except to beat the times of other players. You will need to: launch planes at airports (by instructing them to increase their altitude); land planes at airports (by instructing them to go to altitude zero when exactly over the airport); and maneuver planes out of exit points.
    Several things will cause the end of the game. Each plane has a destination (see information area), and sending a plane to the wrong destination is an error. Planes can run out of fuel, or can collide. Collision is defined as adjacency in all three dimensions. A plane leaving the arena in any other way than through its destination exit is an error as well.

    Scores are sorted in order of the number of planes safe. The other statistics are provided merely for fun. There is no penalty for taking longer than another player (except in the case of ties).

    Suspending a game is not permitted. If you get a talk message, tough. When was the last time an Air Traffic Controller got called away to the phone?

    THE DISPLAY
    Depending on the terminal you run atc on, the screen will be divided into 4 areas. It should be stressed that the terminal driver portion of the game was designed to be reconfigurable, so the display format can vary depending the version you are playing. The descriptions here are based on the ascii version of the game. The game rules and input format, however, should remain consistent. Control-L redraws the screen, should it become muddled.

    RADAR
    The first screen area is the radar display, showing the relative locations of the planes, airports, standard entry/exit points, radar beacons, and ``lines'' which simply serve to aid you in guiding the planes.
    Planes are shown as a single letter with an altitude. If the numerical altitude is a single digit, then it represents thousands of feet. Some distinction is made between the prop planes and the jets. On ascii terminals, prop planes are represented by a upper case letter, jets by a lower case letter.

    Airports are shown as a number and some indication of the direction planes must be going to land at the airport. On ascii terminals, this is one of `^', `>', `<', and `v', to indicate north (0 degrees), east (90), west (270) and south (180), respectively. The planes will also take off in this direction.

    Beacons are represented as circles or asterisks and a number. Their purpose is to offer a place of easy reference to the plane pilots. See ``the delay command'' under the input section of this manual.

    Entry/exit points are displayed as numbers along the border of the radar screen. Planes will enter the arena from these points without warning. These points have a direction associated with them, and planes will always enter the arena from this direction. On the ascii version of atc, this direction is not displayed. It will become apparent what this direction is as the game progresses.

    Incoming planes will always enter at the same altitude: 7000 feet. For a plane to successfully depart through an entry/exit point, it must be flying at 9000 feet. It is not necessary for the planes to be flying in any particular direction when they leave the arena (yet).

    INFORMATION AREA
    The second area of the display is the information area, which lists the time (number of updates since start), and the number of planes you have directed safely out of the arena. Below this is a list of planes currently in the air, followed by a blank line, and then a list of planes on the ground (at airports). Each line lists the plane name and its current altitude, an optional asterisk indicating low fuel, the plane's destination, and the plane's current command. Changing altitude is not considered to be a command and is therefore not displayed. The following are some possible information lines:

    B4*A0: Circle @ b1
    g7 E4: 225

    The first example shows a prop plane named `B' that is flying at 4000 feet. It is low on fuel (note the `*'). Its destination is Airport #0. The next command it expects to do is circle when it reaches Beacon #1. The second example shows a jet named `g' at 7000 feet, destined for Exit #4. It is just now executing a turn to 225 degrees (South-West).

    INPUT AREA
    The third area of the display is the input area. It is here that your input is reflected. See the INPUT heading of this manual for more details.

    AUTHOR AREA
    This area is used simply to give credit where credit is due. :-)

    INPUT
    A command completion interface is built into the game. At any time, typing `?' will list possible input characters. Typing a backspace (your erase character) backs up, erasing the last part of the command. When a command is complete, a return enters it, and any semantic checking is done at that time. If no errors are detected, the command is sent to the appropriate plane. If an error is discovered during the check, the offending statement will be underscored and a (hopefully) descriptive message will be printed under it.
    The command syntax is broken into two parts: Immediate Only and Delayable commands. Immediate Only commands happen on the next update. Delayable commands also happen on the next update unless they are followed by an optional predicate called the Delay command.

    In the following tables, the syntax [0-9] means any single digit, and <dir> refers to a direction, given by the keys around the `s' key: ``wedcxzaq''. In absolute references, `q' refers to North-West or 315 degrees, and `w' refers to North, or 0 degrees. In relative references, `q' refers to -45 degrees or 45 degrees left, and `w' refers to 0 degrees, or no change in direction.

    All commands start with a plane letter. This indicates the recipient of the command. Case is ignored.

    IMMEDIATE ONLY COMMANDS

    "a [ cd+- ]" number
    Altitude: Change a plane's altitude, possibly requesting takeoff. `+' and `-' are the same as `c' and `d'.

    a number
    Climb or descend to the given altitude (in thousands of feet).
    ac number
    Climb: relative altitude change.
    ad number
    Descend: relative altitude change.

    m
    Mark: Display in highlighted mode. Plane and command information is displayed normally.
    i
    Ignore: Do not display highlighted. Command is displayed as a line of dashes if there is no command.
    u
    Unmark: Same as ignore, but if a delayed command is processed, the plane will become marked. This is useful if you want to forget about a plane during part, but not all, of its journey.

    DELAYABLE COMMANDS

    "c [ lr ]"
    Circle: Have the plane circle.

    cl
    Left: Circle counterclockwise.
    cr
    Right: Circle clockwise (default).

    "t [ l-r+LR ] [ dir ] or tt [ abe* ]" number
    Turn: Change direction.

    "t"
    Turn to direction: Turn to the absolute compass heading given. The shortest turn will be taken.
    "tl [ dir ]"
    Left: Turn counterclockwise: 45 degrees by default, or the amount specified in (not to .) `w' (0 degrees) is no turn. `e' is 45 degrees; `q' gives -45 degrees counterclockwise, that is, 45 degrees clockwise.
    "t- [ dir ]"
    Same as left.
    "tr [ dir ]"
    Right: Turn clockwise, 45 degrees by default, or the amount specified in .
    "t+ [ dir ]"
    Same as right.
    tL
    Hard left: Turn counterclockwise 90 degrees.
    tR
    Hard right: Turn clockwise 90 degrees.
    "tt [abe*]"
    Towards: Turn towards a beacon, airport or exit. The turn is just an estimate.
    "tta" number
    Turn towards the given airport.
    "ttb" number
    Turn towards the specified beacon.
    "tte" number
    Turn towards an exit.
    "tt*" number
    Same as ttb.

    THE DELAY COMMAND
    The Delay (a/@) command may be appended to any Delayable command. It allows the controller to instruct a plane to do an action when the plane reaches a particular beacon (or other objects in future versions).

    ab number
    Do the delayable command when the plane reaches the specified beacon. The `b' for ``beacon'' is redundant to allow for expansion. `@' can be used instead of `a'.

    MARKING, UNMARKING AND IGNORING
    Planes are marked by default when they enter the arena. This means they are displayed in highlighted mode on the radar display. A plane may also be either unmarked or ignored. An unmarked plane is drawn in unhighlighted mode, and a line of dashes is displayed in the command field of the information area. The plane will remain this way until a mark command has been issued. Any other command will be issued, but the command line will return to a line of dashes when the command is completed.
    An ignored plane is treated the same as an unmarked plane, except that it will automatically switch to marked status when a delayed command has been processed. This is useful if you want to forget about a plane for a while, but its flight path has not yet been completely set.

    As with all of the commands, marking, unmarking and ignoring will take effect at the beginning of the next update. Do not be surprised if the plane does not immediately switch to unhighlighted mode.

    EXAMPLES

    atlab1
    Plane A: turn left at beacon #1
    cc
    Plane C: circle
    gtte4ab2
    Plane G: turn towards exit #4 at beacon #2
    ma+2
    Plane M: altitude: climb 2000 feet
    stq
    Plane S: turn to 315
    xi
    Plane X: ignore

    OTHER INFORMATION

    Jets move every update; prop planes move every other update.
    All planes turn a most 90 degrees per movement.
    Planes enter at 7000 feet and leave at 9000 feet.
    Planes flying at an altitude of 0 crash if they are not over an airport.
    Planes waiting at airports can only be told to take off (climb in altitude).

    NEW GAMES
    The Game_List file lists the currently available play fields. New field description file names must be placed in this file to be playable. If a player specifies a game not in this file, his score will not be logged.
    The game field description files are broken into two parts. The first part is the definition section. Here, the four tunable game parameters must be set. These variables are set with the syntax:

    "variable = number;"
    Variable may be one of: update, indicating the number of seconds between forced updates; newplane, indicating (about) the number of updates between new plane entries; width, indicating the width of the play field; or height, indicating the height of the play field.

    The second part of the field description files describes the locations of the exits, the beacons, the airports and the lines. The syntax is as follows:

    beacon:
    (x y) ... ;
    airport:
    (x y direction) ... ;
    exit:
    (x y direction) ... ;
    line:
    [ (x1 y1) (x2 y2) ] ... ;

    For beacons, a simple x, y coordinate pair is used (enclosed in parenthesis). Airports and exits require a third value, which is one of the directions wedcxzaq. For airports, this is the direction that planes must be going to take off and land, and for exits, this is the direction that planes will going when they enter the arena. This may not seem intuitive, but as there is no restriction on direction of exit, this is appropriate. Lines are slightly different, since they need two coordinate pairs to specify the line endpoints. These endpoints must be enclosed in square brackets.

    All statements are semi-colon (;) terminated. Multiple item statements accumulate. Each definition must occur exactly once, before any item statements. Comments begin with a hash (#) symbol and terminate with a newline. The coordinates are between zero and width-1 and height-1 inclusive. All of the exit coordinates must lie on the borders, and all of the beacons and airports must lie inside of the borders. Line endpoints may be anywhere within the field, so long as the lines are horizontal, vertical or exactly diagonal.

    FILES
    Files are kept in a special directory. See the OPTIONS for a way to print this path out. It is normally /usr/share/games/bsdgames/atc.
    This directory contains the file Game_List, which holds the list of playable games, as well as the games themselves.

    The scores are kept in /var/games/bsdgames/atc_score.

    AUTHOR
    Ed James, UC Berkeley: edjames@ucbvax.berkeley.edu, ucbvax!edjames
    This game is based on someone's description of the overall flavor of a game written for some unknown PC many years ago, maybe.

    BUGS
    The screen sometimes refreshes after you have quit.
    Yet Another Curses Bug was discovered during the development of this game. If your curses library clrtobot.o is version 5.1 or earlier, you will have erase problems with the backspace operator in the input window.

    1. Re:ATC by ragnarok · · Score: 1

      I love that game. Maybe I'll port it to python or something...

      --
      Search first, ask questions later.
  76. hehe by TweeKinDaBahx · · Score: 2

    IT'S MICROSOFT AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER!!

    Wonder what incidents the security holes in this wonderful flying elephant are...

    1. Re:hehe by TweeKinDaBahx · · Score: 2

      er...

      will cause...

      Should preview, but don't :)

  77. Total ATC failure==no crashes by rufusdufus · · Score: 3, Informative

    I am a private pilot. Even if ATC completely shut down aircraft would not start falling out of the sky. Airplanes are flown by pilots who are trained to operate the aircraft completely independently from air traffic control.

    Think of air-traffic control as stop-lights for automobiles; when the stop lights go down, do traffic accidents start happening? No, you just get a little less efficient traffic flow (in some cases it gets more efficent...). Drivers know how to take turns just like they do at stop signs.

    Analagously, pilots know how to take turns and fly safe just like they do at 90% of the airports in the world that don't have 24x7 air traffic control.

    If the street lights start malfunctioning and giving wacky signals, the hazard of accidents might go up, but would not neccessariy lead to catastrophe.
    The ananology for aicraft is even stronger: if an ATC controller went mad and decided to purposefully cause an accident, he probably would not succeed since he would have to fool two pilots who are trained to be wary of ATCs command and to overrride them when they are in error.

    Bottom line: airplanes are flown by pilots, not traffic controllers, so breathe easy.

    1. Re:Total ATC failure==no crashes by FlyGirl · · Score: 1

      As a pilot also, I don't completely agree. If it's a VFR day, when planes can "see and avoid" each other, I agree. But if it's an IFR day, when lotsa people are in the clouds, a confused or malevolant controller could have two planes shooting the same approach at the same time. It's UNLIKELY, but quite possible.

    2. Re:Total ATC failure==no crashes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > when the stop lights go down, do traffic
      > accidents start happening?

      Yes. They do.

    3. Re:Total ATC failure==no crashes by Cramer · · Score: 2, Informative
      • when the stop lights go down, do traffic accidents start happening?
      YES

      This depends greatly on where you live and what kind of idiots are driving on your streets. It's not very common for traffic lights to lose power, however, every time it has happened in Raleigh NC there have been wrecks.

      By law, without the light, that white stripe of paint (the "stop line") becomes your stop sign, but almost no one pays that any attention.
    4. Re:Total ATC failure==no crashes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Goddammit, I made myself start filtering out comments below Score:3 so I wouldn't give in to the temptation to get into any more flame wars, and now this ridiculous piece of shit gets modded up. I know, I'll post AC!

      This is so goofy that I almost suspect you're trying to mock all pilots by acting like a delusional one yourself--almost. I've read enough letters-to-the-editor in various publications to know that there are a significant number of pilots who actually think this way. Hell, my grandfather thought this way, but I loved the old crank too much to get into an argument with him about it.

      Ever fly in IMC (instrument meteorological conditions)? Ever do it at 480 knots? Do you really think you could drive your bus-with-wings up to a hub like Hartsfield and figure out how to sequence yourself with the other 100+ jet and turboprop airplanes that are trying to land there this hour (that's almost 1 per minute on 2 landing runways for those keeping score at home). Get a clue.

      Oh, yeah, and come on down to Atlanta Center sometime, and "correct" one of my "erroneous" clearances for me. We'll enjoy that.

    5. Re:Total ATC failure==no crashes by phliar · · Score: 2
      if it's an IFR day, when lotsa people are in the clouds, a confused or malevolant controller could have two planes shooting the same approach at the same time.
      If I'm cleared for the "Podunk ILS 29R" and I hear the controller tell another airlpane "Cessna 1234, turn left heading 320, maintain 3000 till established, cleared for the ILS 29R approach" -- I'll be squawking!

      Hmmm... I guess the controller could start out with "Cessna 1234, switch to my frequency 121.35" before clearing him for the approach.... But think like a controller. Is it worth having a "deal" on your hands just for a small chance you might get two piston singles to collide? Big sky little airplane.

      (I'm an instrument rated pilot.)

      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    6. Re:Total ATC failure==no crashes by rufusdufus · · Score: 2

      Wow, they let a hot-head like you do air traffic control? Settle down now. Pilots are trained for these sorts of eventualities, and in fact do land at fields which have no ATC at all. In the event of total failure in conditions you suggest, the pilots would negotiate the landing sequence, and some would land at alternate airports. They would not panic, they would not argue. They would get the job done. Thats why they are the ones with final say in the air.

    7. Re:Total ATC failure==no crashes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I admit it. I had to check back.

      We're mostly hotheads. If you get another impression on the frequency, you are permitted to marvel at our professionalism (okay, that one's a joke).

      I only meant to refute the impression you try to give that everything would be hunky-dory every time ATC goes offline; you know that's garbage. There is no orderly way to go from a string of simultaneous ILS approaches (that can go out for over 20 miles) to runways that aren't as far apart as they are long to--OOPS!--whose turn is it now? ATC systems ARE safety-critical. The reason there isn't direct evidence of this is because they almost never fail. The people struggling to bring new hardware and software to the business would like to be able to say they continued that record.

      I'm done here. Believe what you want, and we'll hope neither of our theories is tested very often.

  78. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by MAXOMENOS · · Score: 2
    Think about it: the software fails, two planes crash into each other. Who's respsonsible? There is no direct line of accountability.

    Nonsense. The FAA can always hire a government contractor, such as IBM or Lockheed, to maintain the system, whether it is open source or not, GPL or not, etc. In the case where two planes crash into each other, the contractor bears responsibility. In the open source case, it doesn't even matter if the contractor doesn't own the code. You can always hire a third party to maintain the project and to be the fall guy.

  79. I'll Be Brave and sound like a Luddite =P by Mr.Vince · · Score: 1

    First and foremost, from the articles that I have read on ATCs, I've come to see that they are of the small bunch that does their best to avoid using computers. One article which comes to mind was in one of the April 2002 issues of the New Yorker (it's by Malcolm Gladwell titled "The Social Life of Paper").

    Anyway, ATC's have been used as a key example within some recent works such as a book called The Myth of the Paperless Office, by Abigail Sellen and Richard Harper. In the book, ATCs make use of shuffled and digested scraps -- or "strips," as so-called and expertly used by air traffic controllers -- and what is scribbled on them are mere extensions of the thought process. It is with these strips that are placed strategically on certain positions on tables that controllers are able to instantly relay information from one to another. I also recall that is one reason why these software packages don't do so well with ATCs.

    1. Re:I'll Be Brave and sound like a Luddite =P by Kredal · · Score: 2

      The strips are used as a backup for the computer ATC system. The only reason controllers get good at using them is because the old system went down so often. Some of the older centers still use vacuum tubes! Yeesh!

      --
      Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
    2. Re:I'll Be Brave and sound like a Luddite =P by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Actually, I vaguely remember seeing "tubes" at RDU when I got a tour a decade ago. (They weren't in use if they were there.) It's so Brazil of them :-)

  80. Close.... by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Informative

    Usually, the connection is not hardwired, but transmitted from one site to another. I'm an IT Manager at a regional airport, and that's the system we use. We have a large Air Force base only 10 minutes away, and they got expensive upgrades before we did, so they basically just transmit their ATC data on over to us via microwave. This is not unusual. This kind of resource sharing is pretty common between military and civilian installations. We have have an Air National Guard squadron here as well, and we also share resources with them (firefighting in particular). It just makes more sense that way.

    As for the new ATC system, I think any kind of mission critical system should be Unix based. As much as I like Linux, I'd still feel better with a QNX type system that goes down perhaps once a year or so. You have to wonder what the procurement people are thinking sometimes.....

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:Close.... by ipjohnson · · Score: 1

      Solaris under the hood. Ultra 5's running the displays with bigger iron for the RDP and other boxes.

  81. Re:I'm tired of politicians playing with my life!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hear hear. Christians definitely need to be excluded from public office. The need to believe in things against evidence is a mental disorder, and leads to dangerous amounts of idealism. Couple that with the fact that the nature of the belief is that of a vengeful, all-knowing voyeur spirit who punishes others for mistakes He makes, imposes rules against perfectly normal activities, and waits until after death to reward or punish people, and it's a formula for calamity.

  82. Re:Um, no by jmorse · · Score: 2

    This system simply provides location and identification information to airplanes operating under ATC. The system tells the controller where the aircraft is, the aircraft transponder tells the controller who the aircraft is, and the controller then issues instructions to the pilot, who is then responsible for executing those instructions. The hijackers of september 11 flew those planes into the towers and Pentagon by visual navigation (at least for the last few miles...they may have used the GPS system to navigate to NYC or DC).

    In short, the ATC system had nothing to do with those airplanes flying into buildings. The only way your blacker side situation would work would be to have a malicious person operating as the controller, and IFR conditions so a non-hijacker pilot couldn't see where he's going.

    --

    "You done taken a wrong turn."
    -Bill McKinney, in Deliverance
  83. Best traffic avoidance and navigation device... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...on a small aircraft costs about $250. It's the freakin' windshield. Look out thru the darned thing to see where you're going and avoid other aircraft. Even when I ask for flight following in my part of the country, unless I'm at or above about 3500' MSL, the nearest ARTCC cannot even see me on radar.

  84. Re:Um, no by ldopa1 · · Score: 2

    Yeah, I realized that after the post... see my reply to my reply... Thanks though. Stupid of me, really, considering I have my VFR ticket, but not my IFR ticket...

    Exit, stage left.. ;)

    --
    The Dopester
    "Yes, I'm a Karma Whore, but I'm doing it to pay my way through school."
  85. ATC game by ragnarok · · Score: 1

    Anybody ever play that old bsd game ATC? That game kicks ass.

    --
    Search first, ask questions later.
  86. Airport EULA by hij · · Score: 2
    There will be no reason to send such a note. Everyone boarding the flight will have to click "I Agree" on the Airline EULA:
    Taking a flight in an airplane is an inherently dangerous activity. Before opening the envelope that contains the enclosed tickets and this license agreement you , the end user, must agree to the following conditions:
    1. You will not hold the airline nor the FAA responsible for any mishap.
    2. Even if the mishap is due to gross negligence on the part of anybody associated with the aviation community nobody is responsible for their actions.
    3. Any personal belongings that may be damaged or lost are your responsibility.
    4. You are too tired to read this far.
    5. We have the right to go through your stuff and sell it all to whoever is willing to pay us.
    6. We have the right to try on all of your clothes.
    7. In case of a horrible crash your only option is to reboot and start over with zero karma.
    8. We reserve the right to restart your flight at any time.
    9. In case we decide to cancel your flight, you are hosed.
    10. If you don't agree to these terms you can't fly but we keep your money.
    If you agree to these conditions then pass through the doors otherwise you go home. Thank you and have a good flight.
    --
    Believe nothing -- Buddha
  87. Newspeak... by jmce · · Score: 1

    Perhaps you need to look up "terror" on a dictionary, search for the *official* US definition of "terrorism" and compare it with the use of cluster bombs. If you are unable to imagine where terror is higher, then you probably never felt terror. Either that or you are in the business of public relations, in these matters somewhat less honourable than, let's say, prostitution.

  88. actually, I've heard it SUCKS rocks... by mekkab · · Score: 2


    And I've heard that STARS has bugs that Raytheon says they cannot fix, and yet they want more money to "fix bugs"?

    Fat chance they'll win ERAM.

    --
    In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
  89. More about the STARS project by elness · · Score: 2, Informative

    Baseline magazine, a periodical dedicated to IT management, covered the new FAA STARS system from an IT project management point of view in a recent issue.

    You can view the case study on-line, or download the PDF file.

    I found it to be a very good in-depth article delving into many of the issues surrounding such a massive IT project.

  90. My experience with the FAA's culture... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...is that a bureaucratically-promised due date generally overrides technical concerns about the project not being ready for operational use. At least there has to be some way of saying the date has been met and that the bureaucrat's promise has been satisfied. The FAA is far from being alone in this.

  91. ATC Union Sour Grapes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check out this link for a more accurate reflection of the situation.

    http://www.baselinemag.com/article/0,3658,s=2101 &a =25221,00.asp

    Let me summarize from the article.

    The contract was awarded in 1996 and was based on a COTS system originally developed for Norway. In 1998, the ATC union convinced the FAA to reconfigure the interface to more closely resemble to old ARTS system, requiring 100,000 new lines of code, a 50% cost increase and a 4 year delay in deployment. This was part of the ATC union's contract negotiation and the FCC capitulated to attempt to improve relations with the union.

    From the article, "CrossTalk magazine, which is the official Department of Defense software engineering journal, found that the project was running within 3% of plan, overall. CrossTalk named STARS to its list of the top 5 government software projects, as judged by software quality."

    Also it should be noted that the DoD adopted the original design, which follows a standard workstation layout, to simplify training. And the original STARS system has been and continues to be very successful in many European countries.

    Overall, it sounds like ATC union sour grapes and politics are the problem.

  92. Air Traffic Controller Game by ebresie · · Score: 1
    Hmmm...I am reminded of an old air traffic controller game in the DOS erra (anyone know of this game), which involved making sure incoming planes went to the correct available runways. It was always quite fun....Maybe they should revive that game and add some peer to peer or networking support and have a whole new system. And we would only charge a couple of million (not including hardware expenses :-)


    Or how about open sourcing it to hunt and fix those bugs...

    --

    Eric B
    ebresie@gmail.com
    1. Re:Air Traffic Controller Game by rat7307 · · Score: 1

      It was probably...wait for it... Air Traffic Controller .....

      I still have a few of those ATC games kicking around

      I've got a few relations who have been ATC's in varoius airports.. one had a Nervous Breakdown in peak hour...a job that is stessful enough in its own right, let alone of the software shits itself..

      --
      Burma?
    2. Re:Air Traffic Controller Game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think Game Boy Advance is getting a game like that. It might be a Japanese only release, though.

  93. Re:Um, no by jmorse · · Score: 2

    Well, a VFR ticket is more than I have at the moment. I can understand saying or doing things in the heat of the moment...as long as you don't do it in the cockpit, we'll all be fine ;-)

    Ultimately, I think this system is going to make pilots more vigilant. I've heard so many anecdotes about controllers causing near-misses (my uncle almost got creamed by a commuter plane while flying his warrior) that I think this may be a good thing.

    --

    "You done taken a wrong turn."
    -Bill McKinney, in Deliverance
  94. anti-terrorism device by anonymous_wombat · · Score: 1

    If airplanes are going to fly into buildings, let it be because of good old American software.

  95. Technically correct but you miss the point. by Brijam · · Score: 1

    FWIW, I'm a licensed private pilot.

    Sure, nobody uses ATC for avoiding the ground. And the pilot is in command, not ATC, yes. And the pilot had better think about ATC orders before executing as I can attest. When night flying recently over Palm Springs, ATC diverted me from my original course and forgot about me. The course would have flown me into a mountain (which was basically invisible). I knew the mountain was there and was able to remind ATC get my original course back.

    However, aircraft flying under reduced visiblity rely on ATC for traffic separation and may be effectively unable to see and take action should ATC fail to notify or give incorrect information. I can't count the number of times I've been in a commercial airliner and not been able to see 50 feet for substantial lengths of time.

    And I wouldn't put too much faith in GPS-based anti-collision devices just yet. For those to work, every single aircraft that files has to have one. Are you suggesting the FAA mandate avionics upgrades for all aircraft? Because that is what it would take for such devices to be truly useful.

    That said, an upgrade is clearly needed to ATC.

    1. Re:Technically correct but you miss the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >FWIW, I'm a licensed private pilot.

      No you're not. You are a certificated private pilot. Read the FARs, no where in there does it refer to a "license".

    2. Re:Technically correct but you miss the point. by Echemus · · Score: 1

      And I wouldn't put too much faith in GPS-based anti-collision devices just yet. For those to work, every single aircraft that files has to have one. Are you suggesting the FAA mandate avionics upgrades for all aircraft? Because that is what it would take for such devices to be truly useful.

      ADS systems are augmented by further broadcasts from ground based Radar data. So all ADS capable aircraft should be kept informed of aircraft that are fitted with ADS equipment AND those that are not.

      Typically non-ADS aircraft would be seperated by altitude. No, its not totally safe, but neither is Radar and it is a whole lot cheaper for large areas of low density traffic and better than nothing.

    3. Re:Technically correct but you miss the point. by Brijam · · Score: 1

      I'm not arguing the merits of the technology, which I believe in strongly.

      I'm merely pointing out that it would take an FAA mandate to make this really effective at saving lives. And the chances of this passing are pretty slim, figuring that this would amount to an "aircraft tax" of what, ten thousand dollars?

      Look how long it has taken GPS to penetrate GA. There are thousands of GA aircraft in operation without GPS, and this is the single most useful technology for navigation we have.

      By the way, do you happen to know at what point in the future we will be able to receive a broadcast of ground-based radar with 100% coverage over North America?

  96. Million dollars wont even get you out the door ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll go at this in multiple points ...

    1. Size ...

    Yes I know you can get some off the self products but this has to run on reasonable hardware and most off the shelf stuff is not designed to push large data through them (to much stuff that you don't need and not exactly what you do need). So you end up having to write your own stuff. Lots of code Million +

    2. Domain knowledge

    your small to middle size company probably doesn't have alot of people that really understand ATC. It can take years to really get a handle on some of the toughest stuff (I know because I've been doing it for 2 years). so you have to hire a good team (big bucks).

    3. Time

    Its going to take alot of time to understand the requirements and trust me what the customer says they want can be very different to what they need.
    Not to mention the amount of time it will take to develope all this.

    4. Testing

    Testing for the prototype wont be anywhere near as thorough as the real system but don't fool yourself a system this big (70+ machines) can become very hard to manage (remember you have to figure out good ways to manage download and install). that brings us to the next topic

    5. Hardware

    The hardware is expensize (2K by 2K monitor are couple grand each. 20 for the nice ones). 30 boxes to set yourself up for development, testing , CM .

    So hopefully after you read this you realize that we do our jobs and we do it well sometimes things get blown out of whack and people don't paint the full picture ;-)

    Cheers
    Someone who does this for a living.

  97. Make it Open Source? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think that the FAA would perhaps be better served if they made some or most of it Open Source. With the help of the hardened Open Source community of developers, most of the bugs would be taken care of.

    It is only when large and important systems import the Open Source concept that our work will be recognized.

    I'm sure our Middle-Eastern friends would be most helpful.

  98. Re:This is wonderful news for open source! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey man, quit copying my AC posting style.

    Only when we make Open Source the true focus of power for the Universe can we banish the evil trolls.

  99. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by groomed · · Score: 1

    You might as well buy the contract from Red Hat or IBM. Just because software is free does not mean that nobody will take the blame if it breaks.

  100. Terrorism and Iraqi military by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All current Iraqi military installations are devoted to terror and imperialism. The military installations in my country are used for defense, not aggression.

    Pretty fantastic conspiracy theory on your web site. A pity none of it is true. It is even less plausible than that Spider-Man movie.

    1. Re:Terrorism and Iraqi military by jmce · · Score: 1

      Several are the empires and several are the terrors. In your view, maybe a fair punishment should always come with more terror from a larger empire, automatically nice as long as we call it "defense".

      The purpose and functions of Iraqi military installations is not the matter here. I have no more sympathy for Iraqi military aggressions (namely, terror against the curdish people, at the time conveniently not-an-issue for the USA) than those of any other nation. I am however curious about which country is yours. Maybe one of those involved in the death of several hundred thousand Iraqi children? Remaining cowardly anonymous is a curious way of showing your patriotic pride.

      I hold no such simplistic views on the army of my country (Portugal). Yes, one can say it's here for defense. But it had its share of terror against others. Few or no armies have a "clean" history. War is not a nice, clean affair, whatever the cause and its worthiness. But sometimes it is sadly sadistic and even more ugly than usual. Cluster bombs have nothing to do with the fairy tale commonly told of "surgical attacks against military installations", followed by tiny "collateral damages". But maybe you should write the Washington Post accusing them of carrying conpiracy-theoretical articles on the nature of military technology.

      Interesting that you know the expression "conspiracy theory", given your obvious ignorance of history and your apparent reading difficulties. Such a simple-minded view is the domain of children story books. Perhaps you should widen your horizons beyond Spider-Man comics and movies.

      A pity you don't explain why nothing in John Pilger's view on the Afghanistan campaign is true. Maybe you have a conspiracy theory of your own to explain why somebody writes that.

      Have you at least followed your own country mainstream media when the war on Iraq began?

      Wake up. Grow up. You're not in Kansas any more. On the other hand, maybe you are. In any case, go to the local library and read some history books. Much more interesting than discussing the plausibility of Spiderman.

  101. TARDIS by BarefootClown · · Score: 2
    One of these systems (there are several) is called TARDIS--Terminal Area Radar DISplay, IIRC. We have one at Westheimer Airport in Norman, OK. Good points: it helps (tremendously at times) with situational awareness. It tells the controllers where to look for the traffic they can't see. It tells the controllers where to find the traffic that just reported "over the river" (they never are, they're just reporting ahead for better positioning, or lost). Bad points are, the system doesn't update rapidly enough to be used for guidance in the terminal area. It drops traffic. It freezes, requiring a reset. It does both of these more than an approved radar display. It is based on ARTCC (Air Route Traffic Control Center) radar, not terminal radar, so coverage is often lacking. A few other things I can't think of offhand. Short answer is that it works well as a situational awareness tool at airports not requiring radar, but if radar is necessary, you have to install a much more complex (and expensive) system.

    To put things in perspective, Westheimer is the third busiest public-use airport in Oklahoma, losing only to OKC-Will Rogers and Tulsa World. There is high-density student training at Westheimer, and operations often exceed 1000/day. Traffic ranges from Cessna 150's to Beech Barons to Citation X's to T-38's, with a smattering of helicopters thrown in the keep things interesting. The airport is served by several instrument approaches, including a localizer, and is scheduled to get an ILS in a couple of years; an ILS allows traffic to descend to 200' above ground before breaking out of the clouds. In spite of this, Westheimer does not warrant radar.

    Short answer here is that yes, Joe Blow's system may be cheaper, and may work well enough for a VFR tower like Bowman or Westheimer, but you need a lot more for any environment that actually needs radar.

    --Dave Buckles, CP-ASMEL, Instrument Airplane, CFI (double-I checkride on Monday! Woo-hoo!)

    --

    "Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
    --Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca

    1. Re:TARDIS by singularity · · Score: 2

      I would like to point out that the TARDIS system costs about $20,000. Raytheon's STARS system starts at about $245,000 and takes a while to be installed.

      I agree that there are places that require radar. As you say, though, there are a lot of airfields out there without any radar at all. A $20,000 system to give these places radar? I think that is money well spent. The FAA does not seem to think so, though, deciding instead to wait for the STARS system to be put in place and then using that to send data.

      --
      - (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
  102. Re:been there - so have the contractors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OK, Mr. COTAR, I had to respond to this. The contractors do not make the rules. You (the customer) make the rules. You establish the scope, you review the bids/bidders and you award the grant. Along the way, at various milestone events, you grant approval (and more than likely introduce a lot of program changes). In fact, Mr. COTAR you are with us every step of the way. Some of us might say "underfoot" every step of the way, but I'll be nice.

    I'm not gonna tell you that government contractors don't suck. In fact, I don't do government work any more, because it's to aggravating and doesn't pay well enough (many projects have the labor schedules set by the government and this in turn dictates what you will get paid).

    But I am gonna tell you that the contractors are not even remotely the whole part of the problem.

    A large part of the problem in government, as elsewhere, is that the managers are not up to the job of managing.

    On the last .gov project I lead, our COTAR was fond of dropping by for a free lunch and a review of what the clerical help was wearing for the day.

    Guess the lunch wasn't free back at his office. Or perhaps the eye candy wasn't as good. Bitch as he might at project reviews, he never did complain about lunch.

  103. keystone goverment officials by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    "have no fear [trip] we are here to [smack] help you [clatter!]"

    I believe this is the same FAA that was the very cause for delays in adoption of better methods, systems and standards by many agencies, private AND government. I have known quite a few ATC's and they generally have little good to say about the FAA. Rather they tell over and over how the FAA is the dangerous factor that both stalls progress but at the same time increases danger.

    Should I trust them now simply because they are waiving the 'do whatever we want because it is for the war on terrorism'?

    Oh and don't think I am against the real war, but I understand how watering it down hurts the real war effort directly and indirectly especially later on. Sort of the 'boy who cried terrorist'.

  104. Every pilot, read this! by phliar · · Score: 3, Informative
    Here's an article that discusses these issues from the controller's perspective.
    Jesus Christ Almighty! I recommend every pilot here go read that article. He talks about non-radar and a couple of "deals" that had me sweating.
    everything I have heard from the pilot's side (particularly GA pilots) is that the FAA is, well, not doing too well these days. And that the front-line controllers are probably more right on these issues than their bosses.
    I'm a GA pilot, instrument rated so I get to deal with controllers a lot. I will take the controllers word over the FAAs any day. Controllers have saved my ass more times and more ways than I care to remember. The FAA has only thrown all kinds of bullshit paperwork around. (However, the FAA, just like any other giant government agency, has good parts and bad. The enforcement people just suck, whereas FSDO people are usually good.)

    The AvWeb article cited above (which is written by Don Brown, Facility Safety Representative at ZTL) also talks about FAA wanting to do away with primary radar altogether. Fucking morons. There are still plenty of airplanes flying around with no electrical systems, which means no transponders.

    --
    Unlimited growth == Cancer.
  105. More scary than terrorists by kkkalen · · Score: 1

    So, whaddya think'll be more probable in the next little while? Planes coming down and runnin' into shit because of this buggered software or some terrorist hijackin'?

    I say terrorists, 'course.

    Now, where'd I put my gun?

    --
    If you don't believe me, ask that guy over there.
  106. Australian TAAATS by peabrain · · Score: 1

    Maybe the US should follow someone else's lead. Five years ago, Airservices Australia started a three year rollout of a system called TAAATS into Australian airspace. It runs primarily on off-the-shelf components (DEC alphas, Sony screens...) running X-windows (yay!). And it certainly didn't cost anywhere near $1.7 billion.

    This system looks after 11% of the earth's surface, from Sydney's busy terminal area to some of the remotest regions on the planet. As an IFR pilot it makes me feel a lot safer knowing that ATC/Flight Service has every bit of information they need at their fingertips. Quite handy when you need to ask a busy controller a stupid question!

    I was flying for five years before TAAATS, and even though as a pilot you're pretty much shielded from what goes on in ATC, you notice when you get better frequency transfers, more weather and traffic information and less holding! It is also *much* easier to submit flight plans and change them at the last minute.

    As a Linux (and Windoze) programmer (my real job!), it's really easy for me to criticize crap software. TAAATS is one of the few systems I've seen up close that impressed me. You think the FAA might have bought it? Hardly...

  107. Raytheon - 'nuff said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't image how glad I am to see the .gov memo actually name names.

  108. I work for the competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    The US air traffic control system is really several systems. There is tower, where they control the airplanes until they leave the ground, departure/arrival (TRACON) where they control the planes in and around larger airports (about 60 miles or more). Then there is EnRoute, where they control the airplanes between TRACON's and smaller airports.

    EnRoute usually uses long range sensors, Radars that can see out 250 or so miles. TRACONs usually use short range sensors. (towers use eyeballs and tracon feeds).

    STARS is going in to TRACON's. It uses a newer Radar, the ASR-11, a fully digital radar, except it has no filtering. The ASR-9 (with built in filters) Radars can be used with STARS, but the needs to be a convertor box, (rumored to cost $1mil).

    The "older" system that STARS is going to replace is ARTS. That system was built in the 70's really, and updated a little since. Monochrome round screens, and big old computers, with LOTS of fans!

    CommonARTS was an interm solution, and it basically is what STARS is chasing. CommonARTS has full color displays, and modern computers (PowerPCs, running LynxOS, 20in square screens running X). The FAA adds new requirements, we update CommonARTS, nothing too it.

    Some people assume all systems are the same. Right now they all aren't. Even Raytheon says it'll take 8 years to update all TRACON's. You think Sun will still sell the same hardware in 8 years? (I don't).

    It is a huge project, with lots of requirements, and lots of people driving those requirements. Jane Garvey the current FAA administrator (someone who qualifications include riding in a commercial aircraft) is out of office in August, so she is trying to leave a legacy. STARS would be nice (You think it a coincidence, Jane, Ted Kennedy and Raytheon are all from Boston?)

    Yes, CommonARTS will run on Linux, I do it everyday at my desk. I can watch air traffic, in near real-time (there is a special gateway that gets the data from the airport and it has a built in delay). There is nothing too magic about it.

    The Linux port was originally done for developers, since the cost of FAA qualified hardware is quite expensive, and many features can be tested on desktop PCs (not everything unfortunatly). A couple of our most recent projects were done quicker because of the linux port.

  109. Some Insight on STARS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I worked around the FAA terminal systems office for several years as a contractor. A key point that has always been ignored in the pro STARS press material is that the ARTS system that it is supposed to replace has already evolved into a more technically capable system and has been deployed at all but about 55 sites in the US (over 150 terminal air control centers). It was deployed at all major and minor installations between 1998 and 2000. The legacy system that is trashed in all of the stars literature only remains at the country's mid sized terminal air space control areas. The CommonARTS system is a distributed processing system running on Motorola VME SBC's and has an option for excellent color displays as well. Additionally, the controllers like it. It evolved from a system that controllers have worked with for years, so the human factors issues that are critical in the air controller world are already addressed even though the software and hardware have been dramatically improved.
    Why you might ask, are we buying a complete nationwide replacement? The answer is politics and has been since the inception of the STARS program, both FAA and Congressional. Careers have been made and squandered on the program. Thanks for the opportunity to vent....I've been waiting years for the chance.

  110. Maybe if the FAA hadn't stalled H�kan Lans.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    invention now being world standard they would have a better solution by now?
    It's a shame the US stalls adoption of better solutions just because of domestic commercial interrests and it "wan't invented here".

  111. Whacky consipriacy theories. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Interesting that you know the expression "conspiracy theory".

    I read the guy's web page and it contained fantastic fiction.

    given your obvious ignorance of history and your apparent reading difficulties.

    What ignorance of history? Perhaps yours. I know enough about history to know that these sort of fictions are nothing but fiction.

    Such a simple-minded view is the domain of children story books.

    That is to be said of yours.

    Perhaps you should widen your horizons beyond Spider-Man comics and movies.

    And you should widen yours beyond the ravings of the lunatic left.

    A pity you don't explain why nothing in John Pilger's view on the Afghanistan campaign is true. Maybe you have a conspiracy theory of your own to explain why somebody writes that.

    Because it is full of holes. I dont have any conspiracy theories, and rely on no fictions. It is "par for the course"... The Washingto Post is a left-wing rag given to fantastic fictions at times. Makes up for the lack of comic strips.

    Maybe one of those involved in the death of several hundred thousand Iraqi children?

    Saddam Hussein is responsible for every one of these deaths. Check into it. The UN sanctions regime allowed importation of food. Did you know that in northern Iraq, relatively free of Saddam Hussein, infant mortality and the death of children has gone down a sharply since the diminishing of his influence? And nothern Iraq is under the SAME sactions as the rest of the country where Saddam is able to kill the kids.

    Wake up. Grow up. You're not in Kansas any more. On the other hand, maybe you are. In any case, go to the local library and read some history books. Much more interesting than discussing the plausibility of Spiderman.

    I've read more than you ever have. Real history books, not fantastical fictions. Much more interesting than discussing the plausibility of "Illuminati" like government secrets that even a genius President could never manage to pull off.... let alone a sub-genius like George W Bush.

    1. Re:Whacky consipriacy theories. by jmce · · Score: 1
      I've read more than you ever have.

      Ooops. How did you find that out so quickly? Omniscience is hard to beat. I'll never have such fast access to hard facts.

      You win. Now I know you know better.

      Got me. There is no oil or gas near the Caspian Sea. Neither is the USA interested in a pipeline through Afghanistan. Maybe just paranoid delusions spread by some left-wing faction of the DOE.

      And although having started to read at the age of 4, 34 years ago, I still like to learn from the best. Therefore, I humbly ask you to give me some reading suggestions that will enlighten me on the True Course of Events and demystify all these left-wing lies (in my ignorance I didn't even know they where left-handed, let alone left-winged) and conspiracy theories I've been told.

      I've never even read about "Illuminati", except in fiction works. It's clear that I'm no match for a sub-genius, nay, a genius like you.

  112. Lousy Journalism (and Sun/Solaris Facet of STARS) by hfk · · Score: 4, Informative

    (Before I get started with my critique of the article and my take on the STARS issue, for those of you more interested in the fact that Sun/Solaris is at the heart of STARS, skip to the bottom of the page)

    I've been an Air Traffic Control Radar Tech for the better part of 20 years and, after watching/reading years worth of inaccurate FAA Technology reporting (such as this CNN piece) I'm convinced that aviation journalists are, for the most part, clueless about the technology that they report on. Combine ignorance of that calibre with the natural alarmist tendencies of journalists and editors seeking incresed circulation/viewership and you end up with pieces like this one. Alternatively, and even more unpalatable, it might just be that all journalists are mere dilettantes, and actually have the barest grasp of the issues about which they write. Perhaps, as radar/air traffic control is my field of expertise, I'm only accutely aware of their shortcomings in that field, whereas they may be just as ignorant in many, or all, others. I hope that's not the case, but reporting that's as slipshod as this makes one wonder.... The fourth estate is just as prone to error and exaggeration as the other three.

    Obviously, there are problems with STARS, just as the DOT IG report describes. There are problems with ALL new major FAA systems. I've been involved with the ASR-11 program, off and on, for several years now. The ASR-11 is a short range (airport) radar that, like STARS, is a Raytheon product and is currently undergoing a variety of tests to assess it's suitability for inclusion into the Air Traffic Control system. The STARS and ASR-11 sagas have similarites: both have been undergoing testing and some forms of development for years. A portion of the agony involved in equipment acceptance is rooted in the diverging interests of the vendor and the FAA. The vendor claims that the system will perform in such and such a manner, and it's up to the FAA to verify that their claim is accurate. If the claim cannot be verified, then a fix must be proposed, then agreed upon, then implemented, and then verified. Of course, the vendor and the FAA will interpret various aspects of the contract differently, and therefore problem resolution can, and apparently often does, involve disputes about funding: who pays for the resolution? does the FAA cough up more cash or does the vendor eat the cost? I don't use the word 'agony' as hyperbole: it most certaily is agonising for both the vendor and the FAA. However, don't be too quick to blame beuracrats. The FAA is attempting to walk a very fine line: save costs where possible, and therefore give the taxpayer better bang for the buck, while ensuring that the system in question is as safe, and reliable, as possible. Of course, altruism isn't the only motivating factor: I imagine that Congressional oversight certainly helps, particularly when it comes to bang-for-the-buck considerations. However, I genuinely believe that engineering/testing personel, system maintainers, and air traffic controllers are supremely interested in the safety of the flying public, and act accordingly.

    Now on to a critique of the CNN piece:

    "The only STARS system now in use, in El Paso, Texas, has been plagued with problems, according to.....the Professional Airways Systems Specialists, the union that represents the FAA employees who certify and maintain air traffic control equipment."

    My experience with the ASR-11 project has convinced me that the Technician's Union, Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), doesn't give much of a shit about truly relevant equipment funtionality issues. I don't doubt that their assessment of STARS suffers from the same self-interested myopia. As I've heard it told, a Union's involvement in an early round of STARS testing turned into a fiasco, and a potentially significant opportunity was squandered. I've also heard that the union has learned a bit from the experience and that, perhaps, future Union involvement in STARS testing will be more productive. I have direct knowledge of some ridiculous Union demands vis-a-vis the ASR-11.

    Unions are a more than a mild source of irritation to me, for a variety of reasons the reader could likely care less about. However, there is one aspect of unions that is crucial to this and other stories involving unions: a union, even one which whose membership comprises a fraction of the 'baragining unit' employees (those who could be in the union if they chose to be) is the sole representative of that group of employees and management looks to the union for all things to do with the employees, and seeks union write-off of all employee-related matters. Journalists follow the same pattern: they spout whatever line the union gives them as if the union actually, rather than technically, spoke for all the employees. If you follow aviation reporting you will see this proven true time and time again.

    An aside: my opinion of the Union has nothing to do with my opinion of the average FAA technician. Anyone that's been exposed to unions understands that the official union position often bears no resemblance to the employee's position. FAA technicians are highly trained and, generally, highly motivated, and appreciate the serious nature of their profession.

    "The old system remained in place as a backup, because "tower managers stated controllers were not comfortable relying solely on STARS,"....

    Now this really turns my stomach....the fact that the 'old system' remains in place is somehow condemnation of the new system (STARS). Of course the old system remains in place as a backup: it would be grossly negligent to uneccesarily remove it while testing on the new system continues. What's so stomach-churning is that this hypocritical journalist, who obviously has a minimal grasp of the complexity of FAA equipment and the air traffic control system, would very likely be the among the first to accuse the FAA of negligence if the 'old system' was uneccesarily discarded and a failure of the new system resulted in crashed planes and mangled bodies. Look, the FAA KNOWS that, while the 'old system' is technically, well, OLD, it's tried and true and, therefore, safe. Obviously they're going to want to retain it as a backup, especially considering the birth pangs that STARS is experiencing. Keep in mind that STARS is not merely a new hardware backbone: it's a completely new interface as well, so it's new to both Air Traffic Controllers and Maintenance personel. Air Traffic Controllers take their responsibility to the flying public VERY seriously, and they're almost always, if not always, going to err on the side of caution. Any one that flies should appreciate this fact.

    "Union vice president Tom Brantley said the radar doesn't always work, and it may require several minutes before controllers realize the problem. In addition, he said, the system has failed several diagnostic tests."

    I don't know what the hell this means: STARS isn't a radar, of course, so I assume that he must be referring to the radar/s that feed the STARS. I have heard that there is an issue with lag under certain unique and rare circumstances. Those issues will most certainy be resolved prior to acceptance, or at least examined for validity. More to the point, this sentance is a perfect example of a cursory treatment of a very complex matter by someone that obviously has no idea what he's talking about (I mean the journalist, not the Union VP). It's confusing and meaningless, rather than informative and clarifying. Sloppy reporting, at best.

    Now, back to a subject perhaps more interesting to the average geek: STARS systems are based on Sun/Solaris boxes, and LOTS of them. STARS, and other imminent and existing FAA systems, such as the ASR-11 (an airport/short-range radar), the WSP (Weather System Processor), all use Sun boxes. I believe that, between the Department of Defense (DOD) and the FAA there are going to be hundreds of STARS, and a couple of hundred ASR-11s, and over the next 5 to 15 years many hundreds, if not thousands, of technicians will receive various forms of Unix training. For several years the FAA has offered a three-week instructor-led Unix course and, I believe, requires this course as a prerequisite for those technicians who will be taking the STARS and ASR-11 Maintenance courses, among others. The course is based on Redhat and PCs, rather then Ultra or Sunblade and Solaris, which is a bit of a sore spot with me, as it would obviously be advantageous for the tech to know about OBP abd other Sparc/Solaris-unique issues. However, the FAA has systems that use other flavors of Unix (AIX and/or HP-UX) so it might not be ideal to use Sparc/Solaris alone, but I can't help but think that it would be better than using Redhat/PC. Anyway, perhaps I'll write a bit more about this and try to post it one day, to see what others here think...

    Getting back on track, the perceptive reader will have already realized that the training of hundreds/thousands of military and FAA technicians in the ways of Unix will be good for the Unix community. I can use myself as an example: I've been working with the ASR-11 program for three years: my first contact with Unix was three years ago at the Raytheon ASR-11 school. Now I use a laptop running Redhat (previoulsy Solaris x86, but couldn't get the darn NIC to work), an Ultra 5 and a Sparc 5 on my desk/s at work, and at home I've two PCs with two drive-racks per PC, and swap between RedHat, Solaris x86, and XP. The FAA has also been generous enough to spring for a Sunkey memebership for me and I'm going to be doing as much training as possible this year. I'll have a go at the Sun SysAdmin tests later this year and then top it all of with the Sun Network Admin test. I'd then like to move into a part-time job with some local business that uses Sun boxes. I've discussed the possiblity with various classmates in the Sun courses I've taken, and apparently, and understandably, there's little demand for part-time network administrators. however, I'll settle for less: I'd really like the opportunity to hone my skills in the private sector, just to see how far my interest and talents might take me (perhaps out of civil sevice altogether and into the private sector full time? a fantasy perhaps, but one I occasionally indulge in).

    To sum-up: the fallout from the implementation of these new systems will result in an even more widespread interest in Unix, and an enlarged geek contingent.

  113. Excellent Post! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is a wonderful post. I *KNEW* there was a reason I still looked at slashdot despite all the flames, trolls and noise.

    FWIW, I am a pilot and aircraft owner. I commute to silicon valley two or three times a week. We
    don't have commercial air service where I live,
    so I ended up buying a plane just for my commute.

    I, too am always amazed at the coverage aviation
    receives in the lay press. Sometimes, I dunno
    that the flying press does a very good job
    either. Thanks for taking the time to distribute
    some facts.

    Someone at slashdot oughta get an interview or
    Q/A session w/hfk. I have other questions...

    1. Re:Excellent Post! by hfk · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the compliment. Based on your post I should clarify a bit: My gripe is with the reporting done by non-aviation periodicals & cable/tv news programs. I imagine that the reporting of renowned aviation periodicals like Aviation Week and Space Technology is of a higher quality. However, as I haven't even seen a copy of AWST since my Air Force days (many years ago) I can only guess.

      Thanks again.

    2. Re:Excellent Post! by hfk · · Score: 1

      Somrehing I forgot to mention in my other reply: as you fly in and out of the Bay Area you may find it interesting that the FAA's first ASR-11 is up and running at Stockton. Actually, it's been up and running for perhaps two years now, maybe closer to three. Testing continues, and I hope things get straightened out soon. Don't be concerned though: this radar is not used to control air traffic yet: that won't happen until all the bugs are worked out and everyone's happy with it.

      I thought Stockton was a clever choice: very little traffic goes in and out of Stockton, but tons of traffic is in the vicinity (in and out of the Bay Area) so the heavy AT environment can be used to judge various aspects of the radar's performance. I've heard this second/third hand, so I can't ceritify it's veracity, but it does make sense.

  114. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by guisar · · Score: 1

    It runs on Solaris / UltraSparcs dual redundent with custom drivers/networking SW. Commercial equipment and OS- custom SW and drivers.

  115. Re:fortuitous news for Linux? by guisar · · Score: 1

    Before you run someone else's opinion into the earth perhaps you should examine the validity of your own ideas (windows of glass and all that). There's noting even remotely real-time about this system after the initial digitization of the raw RADAR signal.

    Any issues related to the use of the Linux would have to be the standard ones of verification and standardization- not it's real-time performance. Perhaps you should take some time away from your "IT" classes and examine the meaning of your catch-phrases.

  116. Inspector General's Memo, background by Squeamish+Ossifrage · · Score: 2

    For more information, here's the memo as a pdf or text from the the Office of the Inspector General of the Department of Transportation.

    For some background into why this may be happening, consider the following: FAA Administrator Jane Garvey was a champion of the STARS program. She is about to leave the post, and may want to be able to claim some success before she goes. Also, th philadelphia TRACON is nearing its capacity and needs to be upgraded in the immediate future. There are two ways to go for the upgrade: One is to put in STARS, and the other is to install Common ARTS, a competing system. If they can't put STARS on in the immediate future, practical necessity will force them to install Common ARTS instead. If they put the money into installing Common ARTS now, they'll have a hell of a time justifying switching over to STARS later, because there'll be no need. Thus, Raytheon and Garvey and other STARS proponents are in a now-or-never situation to get STARS in, by hook or by crook, unless they want the work to go to a competitor and make them look bad.

    NOTE: This is my own opinion, written on my own time, and I DO NOT speak for my employer (one of the companies involved).

  117. Re: Buy Business Class, then! by Abreu · · Score: 2

    As an airline employee, I strongly encourage you to buy a Business Class ticket if you can't appreciate the comfort of sleeping in the shoulders of complete strangers.

    If you get a discounted ticket for the Cattle car, er...Economy Class, you cant really complain about it, because you get what you pay for.

    Disclaimer: I do work for an airline, however this post is supposed to be ironically funny, and not taken seriously... besides, if I learned to put up with the average gringo Coach passenger, so can you!

    --
    No sig for the moment.
  118. Reasonable Comparison by Squeamish+Ossifrage · · Score: 2

    When you say the "old system" your're probably talking about ARTS IIIA, which is about 30 years old, using period displays like FDADs and the like. Of course Raytheon's $1.7Bn 2002 system is better than Sperry/Univac's 1970 system.

    The proper question isn't how STARS compares with what their competitors did 30 years ago, it's how STARS compares with what their competitors are doing now. Specifically, STARS most direct competitor is Common ARTS, which is a the current system from Lockheed Martin. In my biased opinion (I work on it) Common ARTS has comparable functionality to STARS, and it actually passes safety tests! Oh yeah, and Common ARTS has been installed at 139 sites, on time, within budget. STARS is more than 4 years behind schedule, 800 million dollars over budget, and still has 258 critical system trouble reports outstanding.

    Standard disclaimer: I am speaking for myself, on my own time, and not my employer.

  119. Re:Lousy Journalism (and Sun/Solaris Facet of STAR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks for a very informative post. I haven't seen such clarity brought to the forefront on slashdot in a long while.

    Too often it seems people are only just as ignorant and eager to jump onto the bandwagon of sensationalism. I can't imagine that the CNN journalist really had a clue about the subject he was reporting on.

    Thanks again hfk

  120. The Only Time... by Snover · · Score: 1

    ...for something to be idiotproof! Really, a system that has millions of lives in its very, err, algorithms should be made so impossible to mess up that it's tedious to do simple things. Sure, there'd be a lot more disgruntled air traffic controllers, but hey, that's what insane asylums are for, right? And, with the idiotproofness of the system, they couldn't tell a plane to go ram itself into the ground. Well, not without going even more insane and just mashing the console 'till it breaks. Now THAT'S what they need: consoles made out of inch-thick lead and bulletproof glass. It might be heavy, but at least the disgruntled controllers couldn't break it...now, err, what was I saying?...

    --

    [insert witty comment here]
  121. Oh, and by the way... by jmce · · Score: 1
    ... perhaps you should write Washington Post's Willian Arkin telling how "fantastic" you found his "fiction". Go for it. Pick up your Jane's reference works on explosive devices, read about cluster bombs, and enlighten Willian Arkin, exposing his ignorance on military affairs.

    On the other hand, maybe you have some proof that Jane's Information Group is too "left-wing" to provide reliable information on such matters. Maybe, just maybe, there's a widespread leftist conspiracy going on and I've been fooled by it.