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Java Thrown Back in Windows, For Now
darnellmc writes: "According to this News.com article, Microsoft has decided to include their JVM in the next Windows XP service pack. They are doing this in an attempt to avoid Sun's recent lawsuit against them for anti-trust violations. I wonder if the recent decision allowing the nine states' suit to continue had anything to do with this? Of course it did. MS plans not to have the JVM in future versions of Windows though."
Is it so far-fetched that Microsoft is actually trying to provide it's users with the features that they want?
Hmmm, When are we gonna start learning from Microsoft. Do what ever you want and piss on the competition and be rewarded in Monopoly land. Looks like they own park place and we are struggling down on Baltic Ave.
***I GOT NUTHIN***
i could dl jvm in 5 minutes anyways...whats the significance of it being bundled
Its a token gesture Java 1.1.3. Now they can say "See theres Java, yup its in Windows!" To bad that java is years old. Stale mb ;)
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Because I used to love computing back in the 286 days, and now I can run applications at 286 speed again.
The best part about Microsoft's Java implementation is that the word 'java' is nowhere to be seen. It's the "Microsoft(TM) Virtual Machine." I think Microsoft were hoping that Java would go away if they simply don't ever speak the name.
I was installing some game the other day (I think it was Dungeon Siege) and within the EULA was the standard Java disclaimer about not running it on a nuclear reactor or air traffic control system. It made me chuckle. It also makes me wonder why MS doesn't include the same sort of liability disclaimer for their products. Because if the nuclear reactor is running Windows, I am moving at least 100 miles away.
Plus, this is a perfect opportunity to break XP's compatibility with sun's JVM !! Anyone want to bet that sun will have to release an update to jdk 1.4 pretty soon after xp sp1?
Which dipshit customer requested the mandatory authentication in XP?
Now "Write once, run anywhere" is actually going to mean it, instead of "Write once, run anywhere that has downloaded the JVM and installed it properly."
"Oh no, 3 horny women and only 2 condoms...Thank god I read slashdot"
This is an old 1.1 VM that won't run any modern Java code. Now people won't want to download Java VMs because they "already have Java", frustrating Java developers just as much.
I'm sure i'll get modded down, but whatever.
.... up pops a window saying "you need a java VM - wanna download one?" Say yes --- it's downloaded from MS and life goes on. Same thing with flash or a bazillion other plugins.
If you've ever used XP things are pretty damn simple. Go to a site that uses java
Java was never 'blocked' or 'disabled'. They just didn't ship it on the CD's.
Christ -- don't we have anything REALLY important to report on?
that they're using the old 1.1 Java VM, while the rest of us are up to 1.4.
is noting this and being careful to mention that XP users are still better off with the SUN version.
Screw you all! I'm off to the pub
Perhaps someone can remind me what the Slashdot should be here?
.NET. People then complained that it was their overbearing monopolistic powers at work, trying to destroy the competition to .NET.
When Windows 98 was the standard, Microsoft allowed the JVM packaged with it to become way out of date. At the time, people complained that new code couldn't be written to take advantage of the newest features.
Then the Anti-trust court case came around, and Windows XP was developed. Microsoft decided to take the JVM out entirely, to hurt SUN and promote
Now they put Java back in... People will of course complain because that's what they always do, but of what this time? Oh yes, that they're not doing it out of the good of their heart, but for other, nefarious reasons.
Obligatory Simpson's quoute:
Grandpa Simpson: Bitch, bitch, bitch.
Obligatory Open Source Plug:
Get Mozilla, it comes with the a JVM.
Anyone serious about running java is just going to install the Sun VM anyways. $Deity knows I do.
As The Register point out, it's a rather old version of the JVM, and Sun are arguing that it isn't actually Java at all.
This post is strictly my own opinion and not necessarily that of my employer.
1.2? 1.3? 1.4?
No matter which JDK version Microsoft adds to Windows Sun is going to bitch about something. Either they aren't applying all the right Java patches or some nonsense. This is even more stupid in light of the fact that Sun's lawsuit against Microsoft was to REMOVE Java from Windows. Sun Micro - what is it you want????! Man, I certainly prefer the devil I know (Microsoft) over Sun and its whine tactics any day. Here's an idea for you Sun - get a real business plan - your Sparc servers are being outclassed by lowly Intel boxes. Innovate or litigate - guess what Sun prefers to do.
Who is the winner here? It's certainly not developers. We're either going to have to code to an ancient, incompatible version of Java because it's the "default", or we're going to have to keep explaining to people the difference between the Sun JVM and the Microsoft JVM (and either including a JVM with our applications or forcing people to download yet another JVM, something our customers won't give a flying @%^$ about), or we're going to have to give up using Java completely.
And consumers aren't the winners either, because the version of Java that ships won't run very many newer Java applications, so they are still going to have to download a JVM when they want to do the latest Java stuff.
Sun certainly isn't the winner; they've spent far too much money on a battle that doesn't win them very much at all in terms of hard cash. (I mean, I don't see Macromedia complaining that Flash isn't built into Windows, and I don't see AOL wringing its arms about AIM and ICQ not being included with the OS -- why should Sun be any different?) Plus, Sun looks silly. They sued, they won, and they got what they wanted -- and then (as if they had never expected to win in the first place) they sued again to force Microsoft to do the opposite of what they had wanted Microsoft to do before.
The only (marginal) winner that I can see is Microsoft. Microsoft has managed to completely destroy any hopes of Java being a great client-side language -- by including an incompatible version of Java, then not including it, and then including that same ancient crappy version again. Java has been relegated to web services, where it's just barely holding its own against ASP and PHP. (PHP is on 24% of web servers now, BTW... many more than Java servlets or ASP.)
So, in the end, Sun spent a lot of money and lost; Microsoft spent a bit less money and lost; and we spent money on Windows and... well... we lost. Scott McNealy, I hope you're happy.
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Because everyone's doing it; AOL's stopped releasing the number of AIM subscribers they have for the same reason. To conceal the fact that they have a near-monopoly lock on the messaging space.
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It's interesting to note that XP doesn't ship with .NET either. You want to run Java apps? Then go download the Java VM. You want to run .NET? Then go download the .NET Framework. Compiling source that uses SDL? Hunt down the website and download the RPM (I'm sure not every distro maintains up-to-date versions of every library that developers use).
They did on Apple when they injected the $100 million+ to save them. Best anti-trust insurance (for the time) they could've bought, plus they kept a market alive.
It seems that the one thing that is totally damaging to them is that they have legally been labeled a "monopoly". Any lawsuits from now on that alleges damages because of their monopolist practices already have a big leg up.
M$ will settle when they HAVE too. Bet that didn't feel too good going down in Redmond though.
only to rip it out once the auditors have been and gone and wrote down that they'd been good boys and played nice with the other children.
The ONLY remedy that will work is to simply NAIL 'EM to the X86.
Jobs will just have to push OpenOffice and help 'em out integrating it into OS X.
The remedy and the verification would be extremely simple and cost dick-all to verify.
Any M$ code on another architecture than the X86 and Gates and Balmer get intimate with some new shower mates. And if I was ZMonkey boy, I'd hang on tight to the soap.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Although I don't like a lot of what Microsoft's been doing lately and can't help but think of the dangerous precident this sets if we start to tamper with what a company can and cannot put in their software.
Obviously IE in Windows is what really killed Netscape (note: I'm using Moz 1.0 right now) but what if Redhat dominated Linux distros (like a 75%+ share), because it had some magical feature not present in others. Would it be okay to force them to remove it? Are we stinting innovation? (please no flames about MS and their innovations or lack thereof).
In any case, now Sun is suing MS for removing Java from Windows. It's MS's right to remove it. Wouldn't you agree? Imagine getting sued for removing the air freshner from your car.
What a world we live in.
"You will pay for your insulin!"
...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AH AHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHA HA HA HA HA HAAAaaaaa...
Wow, that's the best one I've heard in a LONG time!
I mean seriously, why would Microsoft, who has demonstrated, time and time again, a desire to control every single API for the windows platform, put a competitors API on their system? There answer is simple: the wouldn't. The only reason they would is if there were overwhelming cries from the people using the OS, and most of the people just shrugged their shoulders and downloaded it.
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the whole idea in the first place was to introduce incompatibilities so that when some apps or webpages with java try to load it creates a hassle. Microsoft isn't nearly strong enough to shut out java with strong arm tactics now. Not including a JVM was never their tactic. But they learned very well in the browser wars that a "minor" incompatibility for a small, but sufficiently large group of people will cause developers to shy away from using the technology.
And especially they'd much rather everyone use their buggy 1.08(?) JVM than Sun's shiny new 1.4 Again, not to break compatibility, because those who need the functionality will get it, but to lower the "lowest common denominator" developers aim for to achieve compatibility.
We don't need some crappy out-dated version of Java on Windows. What would be great is for OEM's to start pre-installing Java 2 (including Java Web Start) before they ship the computers - like OSX!
"The best part about Microsoft's Java implementation is that the word 'java' is nowhere to be seen. It's the "Microsoft(TM) Virtual Machine." I think Microsoft were [sic] hoping that Java would go away if they simply don't ever speak the name."
... is permanently prohibited from using 'Java compatible' trademarks on its products." So it's not Microsoft that is doing this; it's Sun -- and for good reason. Sun doesn't want its name associated with the hunk o' junk that is the Microsoft virtual machine.
;)
I know this was modded as "funny", but I thought I should explain why Microsoft can't say "Java".
According to the settlement terms, "Microsoft
By the way, you've made a mistake I see all the time. I don't know where people got the impression that a company is plural, but it's not. A company is a single entity. Your sentence should be phrased, "I think Microsoft was hoping..."
Hope that clears some things up for you. Also, I agree that the "Java should not be used in life-or-death situations" disclaimer is pretty classic.
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Java promised "write once, run anywhere," and gave us "write once, debug everywhere." It's also nice to see that the Parrot folks are concentrating on making Parrot small and fast.
People are complaining a lot about how MS is only supporting a really old version of Java. Well, it's not just MS. For instance, Apple got way behind the curve with Java for a period of several years. The sheer size of Java made it difficult for people to implement, and then reimplement, and then re-reimplement, ... The nice thing about Parrot is that all the other bits besides the VM are nice and mature. (OK, Perl 6 is a prtty drastic rewrite, but Perl 6 is going to be able to run Perl 5 code, and there will also be an automatic translator.) Java has always been too much of a moving target for my taste.
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If M$ hadn't been greedy and tried to "embrace and extend" Java in violation of its license from Sun, then it wouldn't have been sued by Sun and wouldn't have LOST that lawsuit. THAT is the reason why they are shipping an old version of the JVM.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
Microsoft also stated that they were *ending* support for Java in 2004. What does this actually mean. They won't provide a JVM (whatever version) but will still allow plugin's 9which Sun can - and do- already provide). There doesn't seem anyway even M$ can stop java.
Boy, does Microsoft have nerves, if you're right.
They'd have to explain why their consumers would want to run a pretty old version of Java.
I can't imagine why Sun is so angry at Microsoft simply because they lost and Microsoft won.
Anyway, the whole thing is Moot. Java is dead, like CB radio and the Internet, and isn't taken seriously anymore by anybody.
--
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MS plans not to have the JVM in future versions of Windows though
This will make Sun more focusing on backend Java, an area where Microsoft has lost a lot of grounds.
If they'd really want to hurt Sun, they could just make a version of JVM which is hardly up-to-date and sometime incompatible with Sun's, like they did before. Come to think of it, this plan is doing good to the industry!
In this article on SFGate, the MS spokesman said today that they won't support Java after 2004, and here is what he had to say:
"The decision to remove Microsoft's Java implementation was made because of Sun's strategy of using the legal system to compete with Microsoft," [Microsoft spokesman Jim Cullinan]
I guess M$ really does like illegal competition....
-Sean
to have every AOL CD on the planet contain then-current JVMs which get installed with AOL. Sun could have AOL do incremental upgrades while people are chatting with AIM - they'd probably not notice a few K here and there being chewed up to bring new JVM upgrades. Everyone would have latest JVM. Java advocates would have *nothing* to complain about - if people didn't run Java apps it would be because they suck, not because of some evil ploy to keep Java out of the hands of people. MS manages to get people to upgrade whole operating systems - and they make it relatively painless. Sun can't seem to get a 20meg binary in people's hands, nor can they seem to make an installer system so I don't have to mess with command line crap to run a Java application. WebStart is half-assed, but it's a step in the right direction. Why don't they associate ".class" files with the java binary when it gets installed? This would make it so much easier to distribute apps - here, put this disc in and click 'myapp.class'. Nope - nothing's that simple with Sun, but they BITCH to high heaven about how bad MS is treating them. If they took half the money they spend on bitching and lawsuits and channeled it into getting Java into people's hands, making worthwhile *consumer* apps in Java, the Java mindshare would go through the roof.
Let's see:
Java was meant for TVs and coffee makers.
Whoops, no, Java will replace the OS on clients.
Whoops, no, sorry, "java applets suck" and all us Java advocates *really* meant that Java was really meant to run on the server all along.
Which 'whoops!' is going to come next? When Sun manages to lose whatever foothold they have in the server arena, we'll be hearing "yeah, well, servers suck - Java will *really* kill everyone in PDAs".
creation science book
I wonder if Microsoft has ever thought of maybe agreeing with Sun on a license to include THEIR version of the JVM and not Microsoft's. Hmm... I suppose Bill Gates would have to give Sun credit for their hark work then wouldn't he? Nah, I guess that wouldn't work...
Hypocrisy is the 8th deadly sin.
Now that's something they really need to put back. Anyone who really wants Java can download it from Sun.
But didn't MS also say that that was only for two years, then that's it?
You might want to reconsider that proposed alliance of yours since AOL has been hemorrhaging cash lately-- To the tune of $45,000,000,000 dollars. Just a thought.
It's probably the most evil, legal thing Microsoft can do is turn 3rd party products into native support. It's their ace in the hole, making their clone product easier to get to than the competitions. Winamp is probably the most noteworthy exception I can think of at the moment cuz it beats the pants off WMP time and time again...
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don't buy it.
If it's coming as a service pack, most people will still be downloading it, either via Windows Update or maybe as a separate download. Very few people will get this on a CD, I would suspect. The only possible exception to this I would think would be OEMs who integrate the pack into their default XP installations.
Geek used to be a four letter word. Now it's a six-figure one.
The people who wouldn't download suns JVM in the first place are the same people who can't be bothered to use windows update. If microsoft was serious about it, they'd be sending out crappy cd's with Java 1.1.3, best jvm EVER! written in big shiny letters.
Everything will be taken away from you.
Oh, let's turn the tables here and say MS was trying to hurt Sun, huh? Well I'm not saying they didn't, but the real reason that the JVM wasn't included with XP is because of licensing issues with Sun. That's also why it's an outdated version... yet people are still laying the smackdown on MS. It royally pisses me off that Sun is acting pissed off now that MS did this... I mean, who would waste their time going searching Sun's site to download their JVM? Here is the real story:
.Net, based on Extensible Markup Language (XML). The .Net strategy calls for selling a series of paid services over the Internet that users can access on any computer device. This could range from booking plane flights to buying concert tickets.
Microsoft: No Java support in Windows XP
CNET,
SEATTLE--Microsoft will not include the software needed to run programs written in the Java programming language in its new Windows XP operating system, the software giant said Tuesday.
Microsoft spokesman Tom Pilla said the company decided not to include support for the language so it wouldn't violate a legal settlement agreement.
Java maker Sun Microsystems in January settled a lawsuit it brought against Microsoft three years ago in the U.S. District Court in San Jose, charging Redmond-based Microsoft with infringing a licensing agreement to use Java.
Java, introduced by Sun in 1995, lets developers write a software application that can run on a variety of computers, regardless of the underlying operating system. The language is widely used on Web sites and Sun had hoped to make Java a universal programming language.
Sun alleged that Microsoft violated the terms of an agreement signed in 1996 by creating a Windows-only version of Java that was incompatible with other software. Sun also claimed copyright infringement, but a judge later dismissed that part of the claim.
Under an agreement, Microsoft agreed to no longer license from Sun any current or new versions of Java, but it would have been allowed to distribute products carrying outdated versions of the Java technology for seven years.
Microsoft also had to pay Sun $20 million, and was barred from using Sun's "Java Compatible" trademark.
"In the wake of the settlement agreement with Sun and the resolution of that litigation, this approach simplifies our implementation and adherence of that agreement," Pilla said.
In light of the settlement agreement, which gave Microsoft just seven years to phase out Java, he said the decision should come as no surprise. "The reality is that (Java) represents a lot of code that the vast majority of users don't need," Pilla said.
A Sun spokeswoman could not immediately be reached for comment Tuesday.
Pilla denied that the move was aimed at phasing out support for Java in Microsoft applications. He said Windows XP users will be able to easily download Java off a Microsoft update site if they come across a software application running on Java.
The U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia also addressed Microsoft's use of Java in its ruling last month that unanimously reversed the breakup of Microsoft.
The court overturned the court-ordered breakup of Microsoft, but upheld the trial judge's finding that the software giant violated antitrust laws by muscling hardware and software companies into giving its operating systems preferential treatment.
In its ruling, the court said making an incompatible version of Java was not illegal, but said Microsoft's agreements with software vendors to use only the Microsoft-compatible Java version was illegal.
Microsoft, meanwhile, has recently begun developing a set of Internet services, called
There. Let's set the record straight. This is all Sun's fault... yet they are trying to offload the blame. It's one evil fighting a worse evil... you don't know who to root for, really.
Aw, fuck it. Let's go bowling. - The Big Lebowski
what the hell is that? i haven't used that for ages. always went with big blue's jvm. might take a little longer to get a workstation setup, but that's what ghost and/or netcat/dd are for =)
--m
I imagine the main reason they're including the JVM is because they'll also be including the .NET runtime in SP1. They lawyers probably told them that it wouldn't look so bad if they were to also bundle a version of a competitor's runtime in with the upgrade. When people turn round and say 'hey you're bundling .NET, too' they can shrug it off because they're uncluding Java support as well.
Man standing under window sill gets scalded.
- Mike
"Why would cutting a deal with AOL cause Sun to lose money?"
Actually, I was suggesting that Sun might want to do business with somebody more finacially stable than AOL. $45b is a damn big hole that a company can't simply overlook when looking for business partners.
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as usual, the slashdot title gives you the wrong impression, java never left the building.
the title should read "who cares?" I hardly ever find a web site that uses java anymore.
Because SUN hasn't chosen to make their current VM Backwards compatible, tens of thousands of Java Applets live out there DEPENDENT on MSFTs old old VM.
Skeptical? Want a great example? Try Datek.com's free real-time quotes streamer. A great applet (and, by the way, a great source of free realtime quotes). Does it work with Sun's current VM? Nope. MSFT's OLD VM? Yup.
And Datek isn't alone. Companies will have the choice of recoding (often from scratch) to accomodate Sun's VM, or just coding their client apps in (God verbid) C#.
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A quote from the related article on Reuters:
...
Cullinan blamed the decision on a previous antitrust settlement between the two companies, which prohibits Microsoft from making any changes to the Java software that it includes in Windows. "If there's a security hole found or a security problem found, we can't fix it,"
...
Wait a second, isn't that a rather "open source" way of looking at things? So, they want to change other people's source to work better with Windows, but they don't want anyone else to have the same ability?
The government won't stop Microsoft, Microsoft will do that all by themselves.
put on some lederhosen.
That guy is such a twit.
Does he even understand the techno-babble that he is uttering?
I, for one, won't shed a tear when Sun goes bankrupt with Scott at the helm. They deserve each other.
I don't know who is more annoying Bill "Intellegent Machines Are Going To Attack Us" Joy or McNeally.
Man that Parrot progress is SLOW compared to Mono.
I wonder if it'll turn into another "Topaz."
That's anti-competitive (unless it's not vaporware and you do have a product release immenent).
In this case, MSFT is pre-warning corporate America that Windows may be Java inhospitable in future versions (blocking Java apps "for security reasons").
Corporate America may be cowed, as they were by vaporware announcements, into believing MSFTs real or not so real version of the future.
MSFT doesn't want to totally remove Java now because they know a lot of their customers would be pissed (IT departments installing VMs en masse).
This way, MSFT preps the cow before it hits it over the head in 2004.
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Honestly, who cares?!?! Now that FreeBSD has Java, who needs Windows anymore? In my opinion, the operating systems of the future are the free UNIX ones. Linux is supported by a great many companies. The BSDs form a good group of friendly competition. There are a whole bunch of fringe operating systems out there. Sooner or later, already the laughing stock of the industry, Microsoft is just going to lose the market, regardless of whether the government does anything to screw them over. Microsoft has abused its customers time and again, promising change and delivering crap each time. Think a memo about reliability is going to change anything? It'll take Microsoft years to solve the problems in their software, because it contains so much code, and even more so because it's a moving target: Microsoft can't afford to simply stop development and concentrate on reliability. They have to implement new features and stay on top of the constantly changing market.
Although Microsoft does have a shitload of money, I believe they made a fundamental mistake, and their high rate of success is only going to make them fall much harder when the time comes. That mistake was simply trying to accomplish too much. Regardless of their size and resources, they simply can't manufacture the rigorous quality that's becoming ever more important in our world. Their software is defective to the core, and it shows.
What Microsoft tried to do was become the empire. Like Rome or something. Rome took over about a quarter of the world, probably in hopes of gaining complete control over everything. Furthermore, the rich people donated a lot of money to the empire for various things. Everyone who donated wanted their name to go down in history, so they donated money to build extravagant things like colosseums and whatnot. Nobody wanted to support the maintainence of roads or other boring stuff. As a result of this negligence and many "management" mistakes, the empire declined until it fell apart completely. Microsoft tried the same thing: They either bought out or put out of business just about every profitable software company out there, in hopes of gaining complete control over the software industry. Furthermore, instead of concentrating on reliability, they concentrated on extravagant things like features nobody uses and talking paperclips. This practice has resulted in millions upon millions of lines of code, and probably 3000% duplication of effort, of which probably a good one fourth is defective, and this is hidden by hasty workarounds and kludges in order to meet shipping schedules.
I believe Microsoft would have been much better off if they didn't produce any software at all! Instead, they would be a software publisher, a packaging and marketing company of sorts. Microsoft would form alliances with companies in the markets they wished to enter. To begin with, they would offer a shitload of money to these companies, up-front, as an investment. The companies would produce the software, which must meet Microsoft's would-be rigorous software testing and auditing requirements. No known bugs would be released, and Microsoft would throw whatever was required into ironing out all but the most obscure and unknown bugs. For the release, Microsoft would print fancy documentation, put the software in fancy boxes, and spend a shitload on marketing. (The software would be sold as, for example, Microsoft C++, Presented by Borland International, or something like that, in much the same way as some science fiction books are sold as Isaac Asimov Presents whatever by whomever.) Then, Microsoft and the software producer would equally split the profits and share a few truckloads of Negra Modelo while they're at it. Everyone wins.
As time passed, and the Microsoft name was found on more and more products, companies would run to Microsoft, desperately trying to get Microsoft's name on their products. Instead of Microsoft blackmailing companies to give in, "Sell out to us or we'll crush you," everyone would run to Microsoft, in an effort to make Microsoft ditch one product for another. (Of course, the vast superiority of a product would have to be demonstrated in order for Microsoft to make such a move.) To make a long story short, there would be no anti-trust trial and software would be extremely reliable.
But then reality sets in, and all the free software out there has a giant advantage over Microsoft. That advantage is simply time. Linux, for example, had about 7 or 8 good years to simply develop without market pressure or competition. That allowed a good, solid foundation to be built and a lot of experience to be gained. Regardless of their resources, Microsoft did not have that kind of time to research and develop Windows, because the reality of the market forced them to continually make releases and add features. So I go back to what I said at the beginning of this unnecessarily long post, and that is that free software is going to replace commercial software, at least in the operating systems market.
Is this going to be one of those Installs from Hell, where everything you buy from Microsoft forcibly installs a new IE, thereby deleting a useful Java engine and replacing it with Microsoft's old 1.1 engine?
Sun couldn't make up its mind on this issue. We want Microsoft to remove all support for Java from its OS, no wait... we really didn't want you to do that, so we'll sue to have you put support back into your OS. Personally I'd rather see Microsoft squash the Java language, its a crappy little language that makes horrible looking interfaces and has horrid performance under load. Personally, I'd like to see Sun take it in the yam bag on this one. My other personal vendetta is against Oracle, why would you rewrite your entire installation / user interface using Java? Barf...
With the ever growing popularity of Yahoo Games I've seen a lot of non-technical people with pretty up to date JRE's, 1.3+. It seems people are willing to take the time to download JRE's if there is something worth the wait. I still like the idea mentioned here of a partnership with AOL. If AOL install CD's put the JRE on by default, Sun could bypass M$ all together.
So... wait... Microsoft gets in trouble for bundling IE, but they get yelled at for not bundling Java? WTF?
Of course you've got
But I like Java, it has come a long way since I first saw a clock on a web page! Fully developed applications, it has become part of the system on all good desktops.
Right now, you can't be without Java. Maybe Microsoft doesn't have to bend for Sun but it sure would good if they acted like they were playing nice. Then they can try to come out with their "Java Killer", until then I'm happy.
Of course more Java development would help keep it in place.
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Yeah, can't deny their user base. Kinda like playing with a black hole, I think... "Let's see how close we can get to that sucking money pit before-- WhooPs!" *ShluurP!*
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Does this mean all the versions from now on? or is there an EASY way to patch, something automated?
My guess is all new copies (aka That is all copies but the majority they will sell)
And how do we know the java is perfect?
If Microsoft has to bundle a non-Microsoft technology with their product, why doesn't Sun have to bundle .NET?
Man what a bunch of whiners you all are!
Java is not that bad (pointers who needs'm!) and well the m$ vm will run 1.3.1 compiled code quite happily if you are sticking to the 1.1 stuff, 1.4 won't though....
And this raises the public knowledge of java, the smell of cover doesn't disappear so quickly!
:-)
Well. May be Tcl sounds too revolutionary nowadays. Let's agree on Python.
Sun might also like to avoid climbing into bed with the worlds biggest media monopoly as well...
oh i forgot - MS are the only evil company on here - the Past behaviour of SUN and AOL and IBM are all forgotten in the face of blind hatred of MS...
Move to the core of the earth.
Sure it will be a bit warm, but that will be nothing compared to a reactore going off every 10-15 minutes.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Neither Microsoft or Sun are convicted felons.
Anti-Trust is a matter of civil law, not criminal law.
I just don't understand this entire JVM issue. The argument seems to go something like this:
1 - Microsoft didn't include a JVM in Windows.
2 - Getting a JVM is confusing and not ReallyEasy(tm) for grandma
3 - Microsoft had damn well better put a JVM in Windows!
OK now...let's see what happens when we abstractify this argument.
1 - Company A won't include competing company B's part in its machine
2 - Putting Company B's part in isn't easy!
3 - Company A should help its competition by including said part.
Seems kinda silly doesn't it? Now I am in no way saying MS is sparklin' clean, or that they haven't participated in intensely overbearing and monopolistic practices. They're no angel at all. But this SPECIFIC issue seems really silly to me. Do we honestly expect a company to willingly compete against itself? One might ask the philosophical question of: Seeing the necessary end-result of capitalism and being so displeased with it, how can we at the same time so enthusiastically support the system?
From the article: "Cullinan blamed the decision on a previous antitrust settlement between the two companies, which prohibits Microsoft from making any changes to the Java software that it includes in Windows.
"If there's a security hole found or a security problem found, we can't fix it," Cullinan said. "
Maybe it's just me but isn't that the same reason so many of us prefer Linux and BSD over Windows?!?!?!
Now I'm not arguing whether either side is right or wrong, but I think that one of the MAJOR problems with Microsoft is that they've gotten SO big, their right hand doesn't know what their left hand is doing.
Left Hand: Waa! We can't make changes to Java, so we're going to quit using it, instead of using Sun's release.
Right Hand: No! You can't make changes to Windows to make it more secure! Now buy upgrades to all Microsoft products by next week or you'll lose all support!
THIS is why I think they need to be broken up. Not because I hate Microsoft per se [though I have little love for them], but because they've become too big to function effectively. I really feel that if each division were on it's own, they would be able to provide better, more stable, more efficient and more secure software.
Ender
Nothing to see here
While I'm not going to argue Microsoft's innocence I will say that Sun shares significant amount of blame for the situation at hand. They are easily guilty of many of the things that MS has done as far as predatory business practices and yet they are the first to condemn MS.
The original issue with Sun vs. MS and Java was that MS was shipping the VM with proprietary code. By itself a controllable issue but the secondary problem arose when MS began to ship IDE's that leveraged that proprietary code making it easy for developers to create java apps that could be dependent on MS and their VM to run properly (NOTE: NOT ABSOLUTELY but COULD BE, just like with VC++ you could write MS independent and standard code).
Sun then sued based on breach of contract and misuse of the Java trademark. It eventually won but majorly screwed that up.
The end agreement stated that MS "COULD" ship the Java VM but that that VM had to conform to Java's compatibility checks. It barred MS from using the Java trademark (to infinity and beyond!) hence the reason you see Microsoft(tm) VM instead of Java(tm) VM, MS cannot legally use Java in the product name. The end agreement said nothing about MS being FORCED to ship the Sun JVM nor did it state that the VM had to keep up with the updates to the changes in the language, nor did it state that MS had to ship any VM at all. The agreement simply stated that if MS CHOSE to ship a JVM that it had to conform to the compatability tests for the JRE it supported.
MS decided to take it's ball and go home. It stopped keeping up with the updates to the language and resigned to keeping the JVM to the compatability set at the time of the original agreement (all nice and legal). Eventually they realized that the people really making use of the JVM were developers who in the end downloaded the JVM and JDK from SUN or from IBM and that sending a JVM out to support 5% of their user base plus having to field the additional support calls was just not financially feasible. They announced well before hand that Windows would be losing the JVM because of the lack of updates and incompatability with current Java version.
This would have been the prime opportunity for SUN to step forward and play "let's make a deal" by buying a place for Java in Windows, like so many other software makers do. The truth is though that for the most part Java on the clientside is DEAD. SUN's profits come from the developers developing server side code that helps SUN to get a foot in to sell high priced servers, license products, and write out lucrative service contracts.
So instead of shelling out some cash and looking like a hypocrit considering their stance with the anti-trust allegations, they decided to go the "easy" route and claim yet another breach of contract by stating that MS was not living up to the original agreement previously set. They claimed that the agreement forced MS to include the VM (the outdated one). It was a win win situation for SUN - they knew most people would be too lazy or ignorant to check the facts of the original case and others would be so blinded by their hate for all things MS that it wouldn't matter. They also knew that MS wanted to avoid any further legal entanglements no matter how frivolous and so threatening MS would get them to reintroduce the tired old VM into Windows. In the end having the VM does little for SUN except in the fact that it sticks it to MS just a little more. Most people falsely assume that MS is making the move to thwart SUN and Java - that's the other part of the win for SUN in that they make MS look like the ogre again - "shipping an outdated VM, HOW DARE THEY! Come on over to java.sun.com we'll set you straight. Everything will be alright."
So there you have a long summation of MS's crimes against Java. I consider them SUN's crimes but oh well.
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
Sun created a site targeted to end users, this is the Get Java site. It features an automatic install of Java 1.3 for XP users, and a download for other platforms. There are Java demos too.
WebStart was designed so that shared libraries wouldn't need to be redownloaded, programs automatically install, and programs are up to date. If you want a program an your computer that will run when you double click it, take a look at the executable jar format. It's been around for years, and .jar's are associated with javaw -jar (I search down the registry entries to add -client to make my programs start almost instantly). Linux has had this functionality for a long time, and there are a bazillion how-to's.
.Net with Windows and that will be another plus for companies debating which to use. It's the same case as Netscape vs Microsoft, and they'll win if MS doesn't include Java. They only included their own insecure and buggy v1.1.4. I wished they would remove it and force people to get a real jvm.
:) Compare that to 20M .Net upgrade.
:/ (but you have to register... click tools and products on the left side and go to IBM Developer Kit)
:)
Correctly written programs in java are almost impossible to distinguish from their counterparts. Take a look at eclipse or open/star office.
Java is prospering in cellphones, pda's, desktop apps, as well as the server. Cellphones and pda's because no two use the same hardware, but it costs more money to rewrite the apps than to just run them. No one knows about the desktop apps they have that were written with java (Limewire gnutella client for one). The main reason java hasn't taken off before is because it had that stigma of being slow. It is less slower than C than C is slower than assembler. That's little to pay for not having to port apps and not having to rewrite code over and over vs reuse of code that is given in the API and your own object oriented code.
I think it's pretty obvious why SUN really wants this lawsuit. MS is going to bundle
Just don't go bitching about SUN when the real problem seems to be the programs written in java that you've got. If anyone wants, I'll email them a 10K jar file that will run when you double click it. If you want to create your own, create a text file with Main-Class: a.class(be sure you press enter after the line). type jar -cfm my.jar file_with_main_class_in_it a.class. That's all it takes. Hell, you can include all your libraries in that one file and all will be fine. In fact, I can give you one jar file that you can copy into the deploy directory of jboss, and it will deploy both the website and the ejbs. Then you can take that same file and double click it to run the client side app. Java supports it just fine, but all the apps you've seen are appearantly written by a crackpot that thinks he knows java after compiling his hello world program.
BTW, it's only a 9.3 meg file that you can get from java.sun.com just click the j2se button on the right and get the jre 1.4.0_01
If you want a faster VM, try these free VM's
http://jrockit.com (email verification, but free)
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java
There are already talks about java running multiple programs in one VM. There are a few programs out there that do it for you, but they aren't there yet. Once this is in place java programs will start instantly after the first one. The reason why java appears to be slow to people is that it takes longer to start than other programs because of the git and vm load. The -client setting skips jit on startup and there is a JSR proposal on it's way for keeping the VM live. Java has come a long way and has had years of testing. It's not going to leave the servers any time soon! Especially now that we have JBoss 3.0 stable with EJB 2.0 support.
Want to see a java app done right? Try limewire.com
Karma Clown
Sounds kinda........"modular".
The last AOL disc I bothered to examine did include a reasonably-current (1.3.something) version of the Java Runtime Environment among the "extra features" users could choose to install. It even left an Annoying Desktop Shortcut(TM) to start the setup program.
I don't know how many people actually installed it, though...
(Then again, I'm not sure that many AOL users know of Java as anything other than a buzzword somehow associated with computers.)
I develop Java software in my spare time.
When I started programming in Java a couple of years ago,
I thought that maybe I could make applications and applets that people would actually use.
Granted that my crappy applet isn't the best one around, but when you see that your site got 30000 hits, and only 5000 played your game, you start thinking that maybe this isn't all your fault.
I don't know how many times I've explained to people how they go about to download the newest JRE.
Today, I would say that there are extremely few shareware/freeware utility applications written in Java especially in light of it's wide use in the industry, and the main reason for this is that they basically require a Java programmer to install them.
No JVM is better than a crappy old one, because then people will have to download the newest JRE the first time they come across an applet; this way, maybe we Java programmers can start utilizing the 1.2+ API instead of restricting ourselves to the 1.1 API for compatibility (which is really insane, because the 1.2 has been around since 1998 and is ten times better).
Whatever the cause, the Java language has definitely suffered from the lack of standardized and widespread VM software.
wonder if the recent decision allowing the nine states' suit to continue had anything to do with this? Of course it did.
:)
You know talking to your self is one of the first signs of schizophrenia.
red5: Hey you don't have to be a dick about it red5!
red5: Ah, shut up!
I know I'm going to hell, I'm just trying to get good seats.
I exercised at 12:30 a.m. because I forgot to exercise earlier. Now I can't sleep, is this normal? Its already 2:30 and I need to wake up by 9:00.
The JVM MS is including in Windows XP is apparently version 1.1.4 (read: "ancient"). This may just be another move to make users "see" that Java doesn't do anything so perhaps they'll try out C#. And users might not complain as much when they again remove Java support, since that old buggy version they're using pretty much makes Java unusable for the average non-geek user that cannot install a proper JVM.
Sorry you are spreading MS FUD.
Microsoft can not use the Java name for MS own crappy JVM since it does not follow the Java standard.
If Microsoft made a JVM that follows the standard they can still use the Java trademark.
This is the same requirement that Sun has on all that uses thier code - it can only be named Java if it follows the standard.
Thats is the only way to make sure that develop once run everywhere works.
Just saying it like it are.
I've been wondering for a while just how *stupid* Sun is...now I know I don't want to find out...
Sorry, MS FUD doctor it's not.
The open source way have never been to add propriotory extentions that noone else can use...
Just saying it like it are.
Sure.
Are you just trolling around?
The current VMs are FAR more advanced and rival
the speed of C++/C sometimes surpassing them.
And many many fortune 500 companies rely on Java day-in-and-out. Educate yourself before posting such FUD.
Does Microsoft think its customers suddenly won't need Java at all in 18 months time? I don't understand this comment, unless the sole motivation for putting it back in is to get around litigation issues.
I think however that Java Applets have failed on the www. You rarely see applets bar the occasional games and the occasional IRC clients. Java has found it's niche on the server, and it's here to stay.
In some ways I don't agree wit Sun: I think Sun and Microsoft would be better off that OSes shipped without JVM. The download is not *that* big. Besides, what stops Sun from providing CD's to OEM dealers to include with the new (inevitably Windows XP) machines? Most Joe Users push in every CD they get with their new machine (I don't but then I format the disks when I buy a new one) so the Sun JVM *will* be installed.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
You can't run any programs like Tomcat, OpenEJB, or JBoss on a M$ JVM anyway. You need all of Sun's J2EE libraries for this, there of coarse won't ship with XP.
Microsoft's JVM has , if anything, slowed the uptake of Java - it's so crap and outdated that no-one can write "modern" applets for it. MS probably realised that the alternative, MS bundling Sun's JVM would mean that Java instantly became useful - now people won't bother to install the Sun JVM, and continue to think Java is crap.
In, out, twist it around, put it back in, just like sex.
and I will continue programming in Java (I swear). ;-). Cheers Bill!
But how to deal with my customers that like this
Microsoft feeling so much? I'm not going to code
in J# (ROFL) and I'm not trying to cross-compile
my sources to C# (ROFL again, that is what they
actually want me to do) but I simply use JNI to
get my GUI in touch. Too much work? Actually not,
if one knows that there are tools to make things
easy going (e.g. Cigee from b-novative.com - those
guys me that they will offer a C# backend generator
soon
"Get JavaTM Technology Now" and a big image to click on... How much easier do you want it to be ?
And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour Isaiah 3:5
Do you think that someone should tell Microsoft that the J2SDK doesn't compile for anything less that 1.2 unless you kick it.
So what if the Windows users will have to wait an hour extra, it's not like they're not used to it :)
Nowaday we can still hear the echo of screaming of my colleagues when they ran Perl 5 codes on Perl 6. :)
Since to my knowledge they haven't even released a development version of Perl 6 yet. It's really no wonder that it didn't work.
Perl 4 on Perl 5 works rather well BTW.
I know I'm going to hell, I'm just trying to get good seats.
Damn, where are my mod points when someone for once says something really insightful, if not very original. :)
Microsoft does not provide a "JVM". They provide the Microsoft Virtual Machine or Microsoft VM. This may or may not be compatible with any given version of valid Java object code: Microsoft doesn't make that claim any more.
Further, Microsoft VM object code compiled with Microsoft J++ is definitely not guaranteed to work with any version of the Sun JVM. Further further, Microsoft VM object code compiled for any given version of the Microsoft VM is not guaranteed to - and sometimes does not - work with newer versions of the Microsoft VM.
Let me give you an example of what this means in practice. My employer uses the web based Rational ClearQuest for bug tracking. It used java-like applets, and works with all versions of Microsoft IE on 9x/NT/2K/XP platforms using the Microsoft VM that we've tried it with, but with no versions of the Sun JVM in IE, or indeed with any browser other than IE.
It gets worse. Our actual product uses java-like applets, built using Microsoft J++. They work with IE 5.5 under Windows 9x/NT/2K using the supplied VM. And nothing else, which exactly fulfills the specification given to the developers. Our tools don't work with any other browser, nor with the Sun JVM, nor (and this is where it gets silly) nor with XP and IE 6 using the latest downloaded Microsoft VM. Yes, our code is "write once, run once" in the worst sense. By tying ourselves to the Microsoft platform, Microsoft browsers and Microsoft VM, we've even managed to build in obsolescence and ensure non-forwards compatibility on our chosen platform.
The scary part for me isn't that the java-like "experts" in my company don't care, but that so many of them don't even understand what I'm talking about. As far as they're concerned, IE running java-like applets using the Microsoft VM on Windows is Java. They don't even seem to know about other platforms or VM's or appletviewers or applications, or that they're creating java-like object code rather than correct Java.
As a hobbyist Java programmer (using the Sun JVM on multiple platforms) this both pisses me off, and makes me very sad indeed. I greatly fear that Microsoft has succeeded in assimilating and killing Java. I worry that Java has already been dealt the fatal blow, but it's still staggering on under its own momentum, shedding limbs and slowly dissolving. When it finally expires, the beast that will erupt from its tattered corpse won't even be J++, but C#
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Just one more reason why AOL should make the switch !
The java saga is a perfect example of why people dislike MS. If their goal wasn't to control everything, if it was to actually make the best quality product they could, Java would have went in unmolested from the beginning. They could have worked to make windows the best platform to run and develop java on. Instead, they piss a group a people off, we lose out on a language that had nice potential, and make it look like capitalism just makes adults act like kindergardners (ever notice how "smart" adults generally get along IRL, or can at least behave well enough to appear that way?).
Wouldn't it be better for Sun to say, "We have filed and anticompetitive (us) suit against Microsoft, because they beat us out and we cannot adapt or compete" Sun has always been the less sucessful Microsoft and I have to laugh anytime they try to take the economical or moral high ground.
Um, having worked at Clinton Nuclear and to other reactors over the past years in IT, I can say that without a shadow of a doubt they are running windows. The only Linux you will find, at clinton for example, is something someone snuck in. You will find Unix for radiological survey and what not, but primarily all computers in the network are some MS product. No Macs, No RedHat. They had been considering switching over to virtual desktoping running Win2K virtual computers on a mega server... don't know what happened there.
Now, the reactor systems themselves are custom jobs with lots of firmware, but even so you will find MS systems in the control room itself.
An interesting side note... Three Mile Island was almost ALL Linux/Unix before the accident.
Pul-eeze. And there's never been a software package out there that can't read old files/programs? Try to run Ultima VII on Windows 98. Can't do it? Oh, duh, that's right, it uses really fucking old system calls taht nobody uses any more. Try and run some old OS 8 programs under the Macintosh - some will work, others won't (my daughters Preschool software won't).
The point? Even the best designed system has to break backwards compatibility to have better software.
Or, simply: duh.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
You know, they're doing this just to keep the JAVA 1.3.1 and 1.4 VMs out. This way Windows comes with the old Java 1.1 VM. This blows. Andy
When they were giving out brains, did they skip you in line?
What strikes me as interesting is that Cullinan implicitly refers to Java as a "risk," when the software projects he manages have placed far more computers at risk of data loss, hacking, virus threats, etc... than Java ever has. Does Jim Cullinan actually use Windows? How can he be so clueless as to imply that Java places customers at risk when his own software has cost companies billions of dollars in downtime?
Oh, wait, I get it. Microsoft's Virtual Machine places customers at risk. No wonder he's going to stop shipping it in the future!
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Why, you ask? "The decision to remove Microsoft's Java implementation was made because of Sun's strategy of using the legal system to compete with Microsoft," Microsoft spokesman Jim Cullinan said in a statement. Cullinan said the company will temporarily support Java "to minimize any potential disruption among our customers."
But is Microsoft admitting that they are punitively trying to harm Java and Sun? No, of course not. Microsoft claims that the settlement they signed when they were found to have created Java tools to intentionally fool programmers into writing incompatible code forces them to drop Java support.
How, you ask? "The settlement agreement between the companies prevents Microsoft from making any changes -- including any security fixes -- to our Java implementation after January 1, 2004," Cullinan said. "We will not put our customers or Windows at risk so you can anticipate that there will be no Java in Windows from that point forward."
One of the antitrust penalties proposed by the states would force Microsoft to carry support for Java. Now why do you suppose they would have suggested that?
Read all about it here (free registration required).
Interesting development:
/. but got shot down. It's my rejection and I'll grouse if I want to! :-P
msnbc.com is reporting an Associated Press story that Microsoft will stop supporting Java in Windows by 2004..
-- D.
I tried to submit this article as a story to
Um, correct me if I'm wrong but if you are developing client side java for an in-house system, this matters not. You just distribute your JVM in the usual manner.
v eloper_guide/using_tags.html on how to do that.
If you are developing for the internet, why not use the OBJECT tag and automatically download the required JVM from sun?
Check out http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/guide/plugin/de
--
hecubas
Hecubas
It's being set up in Taiwan right now. Reactor control software runs on windows. I have never been happier to be an american.
I am getting tired of hearing "Write once, Run everywhere - Yeah, right!" as though Sun somehow put something over on us, and Microsoft is not doing anything wrong.
I think the correct statement is "Write once, Run on any standards compliant JVM" - which Microsoft is not including in windows. In providing the older version, they (Microsoft) are giving us (and SUN as well as the courts) the finger as well as the opportunity to "Write once, Run on any JVM that it happens to run on - guaranteed to have problems with some other JVMs as ours isn't compatable with the current standards. Oh well, so sorry - ha! Fools!"
Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
From an article on MSNBC.COM (http://www.msnbc.com/news/768968.asp in case the HTML doesn't render correctly)
....Several witnesses appearing in the states' case against Microsoft, including executives of computer maker Gateway, accused the software giant of retaliating against companies that refused Microsoft edicts or helped the government build its antitrust case.
And
....MICROSOFT cited Sun's opposition in the case as the reason for the decision to remove support for Sun's Java programming language from future versions of Microsoft's Windows operating system.
Some people (and companies) just don't get it, even when slapped in the face.
Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
Who the fuck runs java? Why do I give a shit that Sun got out manuvered by MS.
MS pwnes you all!
From the original post
And from your reply
Jesus... fucking braindead 'insert-nickel-to-get-uninformed-opinion' zealots. As for the reference to
well, if you believe in the WORA fairy then gimme some of that two-dollar crack that you're smoking... and get your head out of BillJ and ScottMcN's crotch before you choke on their manhoods.