Slashdot Mirror
No Love From Microsoft For Xbox Modders
RandyOo writes: "Only 4 days after news of an XBox port of MAME was posted to Slashdot, Microsoft contacted the admin of mame.net and downloads have now been removed. Knew I should have downloaded it earlier this morning ... Thank goodness for P2P!" And scubacuda writes: "According to The Register, one group of Xbox hackers have decided to halt development on its Xbox mod chip. It will be interesting to see how other developers follow suit."
.. But Microsoft's lawyers contacted me and asked me not to.
Im suprised it didn't happen the day it was announced.
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
do you think that if they are doing this with X-Box, that they won't do something similar with Palladium?
It is all that trademark control of the user experience thing happening all over again.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Thank goodness for P2P!
You can now download Mod chips via P2P?! Sweet!
dmarien
Remember; listening to microsoft too much killed Sega as a Console producer; Now they've been reduced to software. People who buy X-Boxen deserve what they get, IE a kick in the ass.
Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Microsoft? Not hacker-friendly? What is this world coming to?
Next thing you know they'll start mucking around with standards and protocols!
m00.
And you know what else? Fuck them. They chose a poor business model. I don't care if it's standard practice in the console market. If I want to do something with a piece of hardware I purchased then I'll damn well do it. This bullshit has got to stop. I don't owe them a profit, and I'm not going to bottle up my enjoyment of life for the benefit of a corporation.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
"No, Master!"
Microsoft can kick and whine and scream all they want to, but it's far, far too late. They knew that all the other consoles get chipped. They knew that their hardware was ripe for a Linux/Mame/Etc.. port. They knew that they were going to have to fight this, even if every other console maker has been doing it from the beginning of time.
Sorry, Bill. Take a good look at Sony, your main source of competition. What have they done? Released a Linux kit... and therefore eventual Mame compatibility.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
It will be interesting to see how other developers follow suit.
or
It will be interesting to see how the (law) suits will follow the other developers.
The site of another modchip manufacturer at http://www.xtender.info/ is also gone.
***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***
They're still posting source code as they update it. Of course, without the Xbox Development Kit (which they used to develop MAME-X), you can't build it, so it's kinda useless.
Precedent has already been set forth by Sega V. Accolade. One does not need permission from a platform developer to release software for that platform, given sufficient reverse engineering. However, since MAME-X, and all other Xbox software, uses Xbox's (and Windows') APIs, effectively nothing can be released without Microsoft's consent.
The EULA strikes again.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
(-1 AYBoxABTU)
"Ask me about Loom"
Xbox mod creators, however, claim to have the moral high ground in this discussion ... they focus their efforts on creating chips which can run homebrew software rather than pirated games, such as the Xbox version of MAME (designed to emulate old arcade machines)...
;)
The irony of that statement, told by The Register with a straight face, is delicious! "Look! We're using this to run homebrew software, like Joust, Centipede, and Wizard of Wor!"
from now on, everyone should refer to x-box mod chips as "Replacement Wheels for Chocolate Bicycles" ... this will ensure that MS prying eyes will be kept from our clandestine, x-box hacking activities. Viva La Revolucion!
-jms258
Honestly... this just adds to the idea: What's the point.
Microsoft's big happy campaign behind the X-Box was that it would be integrable with a lot of stuff since it was based around a standard computer...
Well, so far that's proved to be useless, considering the lack of a commercial OS to run off of it, no inter-web games available as of yet, and no use of this would-be harddrive that couldn't be achieved on a PS-2.
So now they're getting pissed off at Modders. Well what do they expect? They've given us a bunch of resources, and now they're saying "Nope, you can't use them".
Yeah, M$ doesn't really belong in the gaming industry if you ask me. Playstation seems to be doing a good job and providing the public with everything Microsoft promised.
Karma: Non-Heinous
Microsoft, like Nintendo and Sony, spends millions developing anti-piracy technology and now they're mad about the cracks - what a surprise. Remember, consoles also thrive on licensing. If anyone could develop software for a console, it would defeat the purpose of the entire business. Of course, Sony's Linux kit is a bit of an exception, but you can't distribute any software for it.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
It sounds as if Microsoft is pissed because their SDK was used. I don't have an Xbox SDK, but I'd imagine that there is some pretty hefty licensing requirements that disallow posting any code built with it on the net.
Now, if someone manages to build Xbox binaries with other tools (gcc) and without the libraries and headers that come with Microsofts SDKs, I don't think Microsoft will be able to do anything about that.
Take a look at the GameBoy Advance scene -- there are at least two non-Nintendo compiler chains that you can use to build GBA binaries. Plenty of people have their own sets of header files available for use (I have a heavily modified set of my own). Nintendo realises that they can't stop them. But, if any of the offical GBA SDK shows up on the net, better believe it that Nintendo's lawyers are working to quickly get it offline.
So, this doesn't have anything to do with Microsoft's poor business model and everything to do with protecting their intellectual property.
dennis
Microsoft: If cars had improved the way software has we'd all be driving a million miles an hour uphill on a shot glass of fuel and the car would cost a dollar.
New response: If cars were like the xbox, we'd be sued for selling after market parts and only be able to buy gas from approved vendors at a dollar a gallon premium.
But Microsoft, like most console makers, is losing money on the hardware sale. They expect to make money on the sale of software, so a system that lets people run software that wont profit MS means that they lose money overall.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
"Remember; listening to microsoft too much killed Sega as a Console producer; Now they've been reduced to software."
WTF?! Where did you hear there? I realize that MS isn't well liked, that doesn't mean that they're responsible for failures that are even semi-linked to them.
The reason that Sega failed as a console producer dates back to their flooding the market with crap. The Sega CD was was a decent add-on but didn't have very many interesting games (at least compared to the Genesis.) They released the 32x and quickly forgot about it. The Saturn spent all it's time playing catch-up to Sony and failed miserably. When the Dreamcast was released, the PS2 was hot on it's heels.
If anything, MS helped the Dreamcast by providing them with a CE-based OS for developers to port games to it. Unfortunately, though, Sega couldn't afford to keep producing Dreamcast consoles. They'z expensive. With the competition from PS2, MS, and Nintendo, there was just no way they could keep up. So they made the right decision: Make games for all the consoles, make your competitors earn you money.
This has nothing to do with Microsoft. Just because MS has their logo on the Dreamcast, doesn't mean they did anything to lead to it's demise. I realize MS is widely hated here, but if everybody on Slashdot does nothing but bash MS, then nobody'll take you seriously when you have a legit complaint about MS.
"Derp de derp."
TiVo (the PVR) is more friendly to hackers and actively support them, so I came to the following idea where you can piss Microsoft off a little and add to your TiVo at the same time. As Microsoft plan into making future generations of XBox a Personal Video Recorder, what about killing them stone dead by installing MAME on a TiVo?
First generation TiVOs may not have enough CPU power to simultaneously play video games and record, but the second generation ones have faster CPUs. They're probably not up to leading edge games but early arcade games should be no problem.
Demonstrate that being hostile to hackers is not a good thing.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Exactly what has Mame done than Microsoft can force them to remove binaries from their site? Are they accused of distributing copyrighted works? What?
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
So, once again, the home consumer is being punished for a company choosing a stupid business model... How long until this is written into law?
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Is this just good old-fashioned bullying by MS, or is there a legal construction that actually allows them to do this?
I'm speculating that the SDK is only available through some signed contract and that it gives various shutdown capabilities to Microsoft and/or spells out certain types of software that may not be developed using it -- but I'm just speculating. (It would make sense, though.) Anyone got the hard info?
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Why waste effort porting or hacking a platform if the vendor tells you it will be "somewhat" open in the future?
Sony did the right thing by saying they would eventually be releasing everything needed to make your own "custom play" console. They defused the desire and efforts of many who would have done otherwise. Since this strategy of "announce and release somewhere a bazillion years from now" was pretty much created by Microsoft I'm not sure why they just didn't do this now?
--- I do not moderate.
Here's a scary thought: What if Microsoft *was* selling Hardware Use Licenses..
"You may not use this pointing device to click on any hyperlink on a non-microsoft approved site."
As far as home brew games, just change the code a bit and release it for free or sell it or rent it or whatever for the PC. Preferably a PC running Linux, to really flip MS the bird on this one.
Funny, and here I thought the immature, ill-educated fanboys only _played_ the consoles .. who knew some of them programmed them too?
"Old man yells at systemd"
This is a very immature attitude that will not allow for a clear understanding of the business.
I'm not going to bottle up my enjoyment of life for the benefit of a corporation.
Simply put, you wouldn't have the enjoyment of said product because said product would never exist (or it would exist well outside of most peoples budget) so you wouldn't be able to enjoy it anyway.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Untrue. If one wants to play legally purchased imported titles on a legally purchased console, the only way to do it is to bypass the technical (not legal) region restriction placed on the console by the manufacturer.
Granted, many console mods are done for the sole purpose of piracy. But there are most definately reasons to mod a console for reasons other than piracy.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
Microsoft is hemorraging big time on these consoles under the premise that they can sell software titles to make up for that loss. Furthermore I suspect there is a secondary interest in simply trying to create a nother market they can dominate. But anyhow, the damage is simply that if I can run software that never paid a toll to Microsoft, then Microsoft will lose even more money on the boxes.
Having said that there shouldn't be any legal reason that makes a mod chip illegal. SHOULDN'T being the key word here. They can likely sue on any number of fronts just as a legal bullying tactic.
The most obvious attack would be DMCA. By providing a mod chip, then you are possibly circumventing access control measures, etc. Depends on what exactly the mod chip does really. But really it doesn't matter whether they have a solid case or not, as long as it isn't frivolous enough to get thrown out of court on day one, it's gonna cost a lot of resources to fend it off.
Strange thought: what if Sony released a mod chip for X-box? >:)
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
In one breath you say Mod chips should be called "Piracy Chips." There is absolutely no legal reason to own a modified console.
Then in the next paragraph, Why do you think Microsoft included an ethernet adapter? It's because when "Xbox Live" goes live, they can see your machine. They could see your saved games, they could see how often you play, and nobody would be the wiser. Why? Because the entire operating system is proprietary, and there's no way to disassemble it. You couldn't even install a piece of software on the Xbox to trap packets coming out of it, because it would have to be approved by Microsoft.
Do you see now? I don't own an X-Box, but if I did I very well may want a Mod-chip installed, so I can add my own software - maybe ZoneAlarm (? or is it ZoneAlert?). So I can see what my console that I purchased is sending out over the internet connection that I pay for.
That's why.
Commencing flame.
No really, mod chips let me import games (which I purchase) from Japan. Pure and simple.
What the fuck is the point of globalization and "the international market" if they are selling neutered hardware that wont let you even USE the stuff you can now have access to in other markets?
It's a fucking joke. Anyone who supports increased global trade, but opposes mod-chips is a total hypocrite. We are not becoming a global community, but a two tiered society - powerful producers and powerless consumers.
Well, fuck that. Like the Boston Tea Party, sometimes you gotta break the rules when they've been sufficiently and effectively stacked up against you.
"Old man yells at systemd"
So the MAME project uses the Xbox Development Kit to develop MAME for the Xbox. What this means is one of the following:
- They bought a proper license for the XDK. The ability to buy one requires an approved title.
OR
- They illegally pirated a copy of the XDK.
Since the MAME project had a working version on a devkit box (the clear case Xboxes), I'd be willing to bet that a programmer at a games shop that has an approved Xbox title took it upon himself to port MAME.
Once MAME was developed, the only thing required to get it running on commercial Xboxes was either pressing a true DVD-9 and getting the code signed as an approved Xbox title, or using a mod-chip and burning the software onto a CD.
The first option wouldn't happen - MAME is not a title that would show the power of Xbox, nor would it be something the average consumer would want.
The legal problem with the second option is that the ported MAME software uses Microsoft's intellectual property. When building software for Xbox, your application is linked against several static libraries that provide the base software services (file systems, memory management, etc.)
Hence, Microsoft really does have the legal right to stop distribution of MAME in this case.
Don't ask me about the mod chip's legal case - I don't know about it at all.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
Jeebus, when I was twelve or so I dissasembeled nearly every mechanical and electronic device in my house... plus I taped an album off a guy around then too so I suppose I'm responsible for all the shitty music put out since 1980.
Oh wait, there was shitty music being put out before that too so I guess not.
Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
My kingdom for a mod point to bitchslap this troll down! Your last sentence gave it away:
Look at the music industry - Because of Napster, they've lost hundreds of millions of dollars, and it shows; The music they're putting out is crap, and it's because of music pirates.
*wipes tear from eye* Too funny =)
WTF is a "legit user"? Someone who plays by the rules Microsoft sets? Just because their business model is based on the flawed assumption that they can keep hax0rs from hax0ring their boxen, doesnt mean we have to play along. In short, FUCK YOU.
I'm not entirely convinced Microsoft is doing this because they don't want users to run MAME or because they're worried that people will buy an Xbox, mod it, and just use it to run their own software without ever buying a single officially licensed Xbox game. Quite honestly, that seems like such a small drop in the financial bucket that I doubt Microsoft really cares that much.
I think Microsoft's main concern is that people will use modded Xboxes to screw with Microsoft's Xbox Live offering. You know, the one they're investing, like, 80 gazillion dollars into? I'm no security expert, and I have no idea what kind of "military grade" security Microsoft has implemented with their Xbox Live infrastructure, but based on this article on Wednesday, it does seem to rely heavily on the fact that they're using a closed, Microsoft-only system.
What does that mean? Again, I'm not really sure, but I'd wager good money it means the most likely way somebody could f*** up Xbox Live for users is by using compromised Xboxes. That's something Microsoft definitely doesn't want, and I'm guessing that's why they're showing no love for modders.
"Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!"
Instead of people just using the Mame-X binaries, now they have to pirate your Xbox-DK instead.
Who wants to bet that people who chip consoles won't feel bad about downloading a warezed copy of the Xbox-DK? I thought so...
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
The line of circular reasoning rather silly, don't you think?
If a company makes a product, I am not obligated to make sure they make money at it - only that the product is useful/enjoyable to myself. That's it. End of my commitment. If I buy War and Peace and use it to beat my groin in a strange masturbatory experience, then Tolstoy shouldn't get all pissed off - he got his money, and I got a bruised crotch.
The same thing applies here. Microsoft's plans for their product do not override *my* plans for their product. Once I've spent the money, they can try to *entice* me to buy games - but if I want to use the Xbox as a doorstop, there's nothing on earth they can do to stop me. Paperweight? My right as a consumer. Potted plants? Same thing.
Put in a mod chip to run Linux so I can put Mame/DivX/a SNES emulator? Still my right - all they can try to do is entice me to spend the money *they* want me to. If they decide to pull the product off the market - that's fine. Perhaps someday there will be a vendor who *will* put that kind of product on the market, and then they will be the one to make money.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
You license the hardware, you don't own it.
Tell that to the secondary market. Hardware is a physical tangible hard-to-copy thing that is owned. If I had an X-Box, I could take little wires and a soldering iron and do anything I want to its innards, risking only voiding the warranty. If I just wanted to use the CPU to keep a little cup of tea warm, I could, and you couldn't stop me.
If you ever tried that with my gaming console (yes, I'm a developer for a major game company, not MS), I'll send my lawyers after you so fast you'll be in jail getting assfucked by Bubba and his friends.
Whatever.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Considering many of these consoles end up in the hands of children who generally don't follow the rules on proper CD/DVD handling, a mod chip should be at the top of the list for any parent who doesn't want to re-buy those $80 games everytime the kids step on 'em.
This is a totally legitimate use of a mod chip, and isn't piracy at all!
So short-sighted, the "anti-piracy" squad can be.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Overrated? That seems damn insightful to me.... what are the moderators smoking today?
You, sir, should get a +1 - Insightful.
I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
Step one: Place X-Box on secure platform.
Step two: Place drink on X-Box
Step three: Turn on Gamecube and enjoy.
Microsoft has indeed learned from their business model. This is in effect a good reason NOT to buy an XBox, but to stick to games for your PC, preserve that market and you'll still have the option to buy games for it in 5 years. You buy games for proprietary game consoles and watch the PC market wither and you'll have been your own worst enemy (and still be pointing the finger at them to blame.)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Sure, research from Enigmah-X, based in China, has been shut down, but we can purhcase these chips. I believe Liksang.com, located in Hong Kong, still sells these chips. If you ever make a trip to the Far East, be sure to check out China and Thailand. A popular Asian philosophy that implies that "knowledge is free" is a reason why local officials drag thier feet to shut down production operations or enforce intellectual property laws. Movies, software, video games, and a long list of other items are considered "knowledge" there, which explains the existence of their large "piracy" market. Mod chip development, which involves research and development, is also considered as something needed to attain what is considered "knowledge", for example video games. (However, China has begun a recent crackdown on software-related piracy in recent months, as it tries its hardest to enter the WTO).
In Thailand, you can obtain PS2 and Xbox games from 2.50-5 bucks a pop. Ps2 and Xbox mod chips in Hong Kong cost less than 110 of US currency in the local markets and stores, last time I checked. X-box Mod chip development will likely pop up in Asian countries, so be on the lookout if your interested in this subject.
The Asian mentality which states that "knowledge is free", which is Confucian in origin, is something a so-called "Westerner" may not understand, especially when that person lives in a country full of IP laws. This explains the seemingly endless battle of American companies, such as Microsoft, against the gargantuan "piracy" markets of Asia.
Also, this quote from a paper of a student of Rutgers University titled "Preliminary Analysis of Intellectual Property Protection and Economic Development in China" describes the situtation of IPR (Intellectual Protperty Rights) in China:
"Confucius's concept of the transmission of culture and Marx's views on the social nature of language and invention arose from very different ideological foundations. Nonetheless, because each school of thought in its own way saw intellectual creation as fundamentally a product of the larger society from which it emerged, neither elaborated a strong rationale for treating it as establishing private ownership interests.[15] Deeply influenced by these two ideologies, China falls behind all developed countries and many developing countries in the field of intellectual property protection. It is also not difficult to understand why most of Chinese did not know what were IPRs in 1980s."
As one can see, the IP battle between West and East began with ideas created in the West and East. Microsoft's successful attempt to shut down R&D on the Enigmah-X is part of it.
As one famous Chinese scholar once wrote:
"To steal a book is elegance."
More information on the reasons behind the East-West IP battle can be found in here:
"Preliminary Analysis of Intellectual Property Protection and Economic Development in China", an essay written by Sheng Ding
"To Steal A Book is an Elegant Offense: Intellectual Property Law in Chinese Civilization" by William P. Alford
Bullshit. Their control ends when I purchase the product. If they choose to sell it at a loss hoping to make money on licensing that's their problem. THEY don't have an understanding of business. What if I buy the machine and never buy any games, am I in the wrong then. Am I morally obligated to make sure their business model works. No. Do they have any right whatsoever to tell me what to do with something I purchased. Fuck no. It is mine, I will do with it what I choose, when I choose, regardless of whatever freedom sapping law corporations buy through the government.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
How long until this is written into law?
What time is it?
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
yes, but that still doesn't explain how microsoft stands to lose any money at all on this.
actually, MAME is one of the few things that could prompt me to buy an X-BOX. I've been looking to build a MAME console inside this old arcade case a friend of mine has, X BOX + 20 inch TV + arcade pad + MAME = arcade fun without keyboard hassles.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
Fah, Nintendo has the cheapest console and they actually make money selling them. Microsoft created a console that is quite a bit more expensive to produce than Sony's or Nintendo's and they sell them at a significant loss because they know that otherwise they wouldn't sell very many. They hope to make back this loss with game royalties and services, but it isn't my responsibility to make sure they do. If Microsoft wants to guarantee that they don't lose money on XBox purchases then they need to raise the price of their goods.
Sometimes companies just come up with bad business plans. Microsoft is apparently not immune to this trait.
< There is absolutely no legal reason to own a modified console.
Untrue. If one wants to play legally purchased imported titles on a legally purchased console
Right, but also...
It allows people to write new programs for it. I could write a recipie database, a web server, or GrandTheftSpaceShuttle3000 and sell it or give it away for free.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
So, even if MS manages to kill of all of the mod. chip makers, you can still do a homebrew mod by flashing a flashrom on your computer mobo with the hacked bios and wiring it up. This puts the power to mod. you XBox in your hands, but unfortunately it looks as if MS is targeting people illegally using their XDK. What we need is an open sdk for the XBox and/or to wait a bit longer for XBox Linux. Anyway, I'm glad I grabbed MAMEX already.
'He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.' - Douglas Adams
This is a joke! The hardware does not belong to Microsoft. When you buy the hardware you should be able to do what you want with it. You are not bootlegging software, you are opening the box so that you can run open source code. there is no
way Microsoft should be able to stop users from doing what they want with the hardware.
So.. why not boycott the piece of junk and build a
true opensource product?
that's a major flaw in their business plan.
there can't be anything stopping a third party to create games to run on their hardware. i like the auto aftermarket parts analogy used in earlier posts. the company needs to sell each item to cover its costs and not worry about other products (licensing for game manufacturers) to pick up the pieces.
Hey, now wait a minute. A kick in the ass I can understand, but the X-BOX people have to get IE too? Be humane, please!
I agree with you, man! If the endgame here is to improve quality of life (ie, protecting IP to fuel capitalism to raise quality of living), I won't support a system where I'm living an extra 30 years in great conditions unhappily. Its like cutting off the nose to spite the face.
.. or do the sane thing and have the copyright laws reflect human behaviour and changing social opinion (what a radical concept!)
I never once said it was my right. Its not my right. I'm just going to do it, because I think it _should_ be legal (or fairuse, or ignored, but I prefer to have laws reflect behaviour rather than a smoke and mirrons sytem people are always attempting to work around a la grey market) and I know enough other people to do it not to be putting myself at great legal jeopardy. Judging by other people, they will do it too. At some point, those who desire control will have to lock us all up or give up
"Old man yells at systemd"
Microsoft making a big song and dance about this will surely result in more publicity for MAME. Wonder how long it'll be until there's a MAME that'll work on X-BOX without needing a mod-chip? That'll really hurt MS as lots of people get lots of great games, and MS don't make a dime out of it - heck, they actually lose money because the console itself is a loss-leader (even if they are using slave labor over in China now to make 'em)
So, what they can do:
Use the SDK to build gcc.
Use the resulting gcc to build gcc2
gcc2 is then MS-free. Now distribute gcc2.
It costs Microsoft money the same way refilling ink cartridges costs printer companies money. Microsoft is losing something like $150 on each X-Box it sells. Any X-Box that is used for something other than selling game cartridges cost MS money.
It's also similar to the situation where people were selling cheap internet appliances expecting to lock people into long, expensive ISP contracts. Anyone who bought one and hacked it to use as a cheap terminal was costing the company money.
Another similarly ineffective money losing endeaver was the CueCat debacle. Remember their value attempts to prevent people from hacking on hardware that they were giving away at Radio Shack?
Perhaps the real issue is whether there's any enforceable law that props up a business model that obvious gaping holes in it. Maybe the DMCA is applicable here? Are hackers bypassing any protective measures included by MS?
BEGIN SNOBBERY
I only bring copies of my music CD's to work, does that mean I'm a felon whenever I listen to "3 Doors Down"?
No, but you should be!!!
/END SNOBBERY
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
I don't want to pirate games (I'm a game designer, so that goes against my principles - I buy all of my games) but I would like to be able to watch VCDs of my student films, or play old arcade favorites using MAME, or watch Hong Kong or Japanese flicks that have yet to make it to region one.
Despite the fact that people pirate MS software, they remaine one of the most profitable game companies around. Recently, a Sony exec admitted that piracy helped sell the first PlayStation, making it one of the most successful console in gaming history. I don't buy the idea that piracy hurts business, whether it's software, games, CDs or movies. The issue here is control, not profits. They want to retain control on how the box is used, just like they want to control what you'll do with your PC with Palladium. They want us to be consumers, not participants. But they are fighting a losing battle, IMHO.
Reminder: find a new sig
(Score: -1, praeteritio)
and for me:
(Score: -1, erudite humor)
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
No, copyright was enacted origionally as a censorship tool, and is currently used to artificially create scarcity for protected ideas, which then gives those ideas commercial value. Hardware, being a physical thing, is inherently scarce, and on that point your copyright analogy falls in upon itself.
Anyone who sells hardware for less than it costs to produce is an idiot. If people aren't willing to pay at least the cost of production, then either your product or your process needs to be redesigned.
Once I have bought a piece of hardware it is mine and I can do with it whatever I want. I can modify it, sell it, rent it out, smash it with a hammer, or use it as a fishtank and there's not a goddamned thing they can do about it. That idea is the basis of our economic system, and it is the reason why I can by parts for my truck that weren't made by Dodge. This is true for all hardware. It does not suddenly become untrue for consoles because Microsoft couldn't handle the basic laws of supply and demand. Sony and Nintendo seem to be doing just fine without such protection.
Are you honestly saying that you would have no problem with a law that required every console purchaser to also purchase X number of officially produced games for that console? Would you also have no problem with a law that requires you to get your car serviced only by official dealer mechanics using only official dealer parts? Are you honestly foolish enough to believe that such a law would benefit you, the consumer?
The simple fact is that Microsoft fucked up. They tried to apply a software business model to hardware, and it just won't work. Too fucking bad, I say. It's not my responsibility to bail them out of the hole they dug for themselves. That's what they have $40 billion in the bank for, and if they didn't have that I guess they'd just have to disappear, just like 3DO, TurboGrafix, and SEGA did before them.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Why doesn't someone make a system that uses a chip that coincidentally can replace the X-Box chip...and then sell components.
Hmm... if the final binary has to be byte-for-byte identical with that generated by the development tools, so that the signature keeps working, then it could get tricky. But still I think it is possible to 'bleep out' all portions of MS-copyright code in the binary - replace them with zeroes - and then the user at the other end can combine this censored version with a real Xbox binary to get back the original. A real PITA though.
Hang on, can you explain this stuff with the signing keys again? Wasn't the MAME port that Microsoft objected to itself a signed binary? If you have access to the development kit, which can generate signed binaries, then you already have Microsoft's encryption keys. Or am I missing something?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Hardly. I have 50. At this point, I risk losing Karma without gaining any. People could have been offended by my parody.
"Derp de derp."
"...just like no legit person would ever need to open up their toaster "to make sure it works."
Actually, you would open your toaster if you couldn't toast imported bread because it was shaped so you couldn't fit it in the toaster.
I think the reason most Slashdotters interested in this topic want a mod chip is simply to run Linux on the XBOX.
"Derp de derp."
What Palladium is proposing is that the boot decryption keys are embedded in the CPU itself. They need AMD & Intel's cooperation for this, of course, and now they have it. This way, it's all but impossible to modify the boot code or to view the encryption keys, except perhaps by shaving the top off the CPU & examining the ROM mask directly with a (very) high-powered microscope.
Palladium may not take off (there's going to be a lot of privacy concerns, and it's going to be very difficult to secure comprehensive industry support, or it just won't fly), but they sure as hell can implement it in Xbox 2.
Even this approach can be defeated by e.g. bugs, human error, social engineering etc etc, but it makes things a lot harder to crack/reverse engineer from the hardware/software aspect. Look for Xbox 2 as a feasibility study of the Palladium concept.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
It wasn'y clear from any of those links on what gounds microsoft objected. It wasn't a port of one of their games, was it, but rather to their platform?
How is this different from apple throwing a hissy fit because I've ported galeon to run native on carbon (which I haven't, but for sake of argument)?
I truly am confused, not just shocked, shocked. Not askign you to justify M$ reasoning, just explain it.
Do companies not have the freedom to have different business models?
But what they don't, or at least shouldn't, have the ability to do is to bully their customers into ensuring their business model works. With a console they are selling a piece of hardware, possibly at loss. If someone works out how to use that piece of hardware in a novel way then tough, the doctorine of first sale should apply.
Hahahahha!! My post (parent) got modded down as "redundant"!
I thought my post would make other posts redundant. I guess I should have posted sooner, they must have made mine redundant.
"Derp de derp."
Or would a more realistic question be what didn't they threaten them with?
Refillable ink cartridges are an excellent analogy to this XBOX situation - if I remember correctly, the major printer manufacturers are getting sued over the way they handle the pricing of their printer cartridges. The point is that both businesses sell the major hardware so cheap that they lose money on it, assuming that they will make the money back from sales of accessories. From a business standpoint, this approach is flawed because of the changes in the ways consumers approach intellectual property.
Let's extend your analogy a bit. I'll start a car company, and make cars that require a special type of fuel. I'll price the car competetively against others on the market. How long before someone else starts producing my fuel at a cheaper price? Not long. Who cares if it "costs the company money" when you buy from the cheaper source?
Now hackers have provided alternative "accessories" for the XBOX, and no one cares about Microsoft's business plan.
-dbc
Giving away copies of Mame is hardly making a profit, but even for those making and selling mod chips, so what? They are not doing anything illegal (afaik). They didn't steal trade secret information, they legitimately reverse engineered the console. For M$ to claim no one can do such things goes contrary to all precedent and logic. If you buy a car you can have a third party company customize it, repaint it, add spoilers, a sunroof, or more, even when the factory offers the same features. I can't think of any industry other than M$ and the console industry where such a concept of not being able to modify a product and use as you see fit is applied to a product that you buy, and that has to include being able to buy the modification parts from someone who legitimately designed and made them.
If Microsoft grew food they would claim that no one could buy that food and then open their own restaurant.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
If the XMAME port isn't signed, then how can it be violating Microsoft's TOS? The mod chip required to run it is definitely a violation, but the software itself obviously is not, since it can't even run on an unmodified console. I think this is grounds for a lawsuit.
It costs Microsoft money the same way refilling ink cartridges costs printer companies money. Microsoft is losing something like $150 on each X-Box it sells. Any X-Box that is used for something other than selling game cartridges cost MS money.
Microsoft isn't some charity they are a commercial enterprise. If their business model does not work then it's up to them to find one which does work. They have huge assets to tide them over whilst they do this. A company which didn't would probably simply go bankrupt.
The basic idea behind free market capitalism is that both suppliers and customers look out for their own interests.
It's also similar to the situation where people were selling cheap internet appliances expecting to lock people into long, expensive ISP contracts. Anyone who bought one and hacked it to use as a cheap terminal was costing the company money.
Ditto, it was up for the people who made the I-Opener to find a business model which worked. IIRC in some places bundling of hardware and service contracts is actually illegal.
Another similarly ineffective money losing endeaver was the CueCat debacle. Remember their value attempts to prevent people from hacking on hardware that they were giving away at Radio Shack?
Also mailing these as unsolicited gifts. Attempting to base an entire enterprise around a loss leader is a risky business.
Perhaps the real issue is whether there's any enforceable law that props up a business model that obvious gaping holes in it.
There certainly shouldn't be. The right thing for such a business to do in this situation is to either use their reserves/credit or go bankrupt.
MS preventing MAME for XBox is like smacking your grandmother so she'll shut up about living through WWII.
Glad someone's at least TRYING to keep the old games around.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
Microsoft isn't very smart in the best sense of the word. They try to act soon on these infringes, yet it only encourages people to go underground with these things, and god knows underground stuff allways runs faster, better and more secure
Seriously, the reason why the console doesn't sell as good as ps2 is simple: lack of good games, and high component cost. People trying to mod the box are undercutting the one feeble pillar xbox might rely on to survive: selling games. And these games aren't just produced by Microsoft. There are other companies involved that realy have nothing to do with MS, they simply target a dev. platform that happens to be Xbox. Whether that is a smart thing is something else, but they aren't gonna be making much more games if no one brings in some cash to compensate x years of development. MS needs those 3rd party teams to live. Interestingly, those teams do not per se need MS.
But microsoft makes other mistakes as well. Today it's far easier to get a modded xbox - or even a ps2 devkit - than an xbox development kit. It seems MS is unable to supply developpers on time, jeoppardizing milestones, release dates,
MS is in for a threat. The whole thing is costing them far more than their worst predictions, and their supply lines are drying up. They do have enough cash, but while they may live, the rest of the pack will have crossed over big time, or gone bust. And they can't possibly get the xbox thing going without that crucial 3rd party support be it games or video or IP or whatever. MS is a very very slow learner in this very hot market where the competition is neckbreaking steep, and Sony is your best bet. For now. Xbox will live, no matter what.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Look up the history of copyright in British common law. The origional intent of copyright was to give the crown control over what could be published. Here and here are some decent sites detailing the history of copyright (in the US and UK, respectively). In particular, I'm refering to the Licensing Act of 1662, which granted publishers the monopoly currently refered to as copyright in exchange for censorship of information deemed damaging to the church or government.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
"It allows people to write new programs for it. I could write a recipie database, a web server, or GrandTheftSpaceShuttle3000 and sell it or give it away for free."
That's why I want it. Well, not for GTSS3K, but a different program. I've had lots of fun writing stuff for the GBA, but I'm ready for a more powerful platform now. I'm looking forward to writing a hobbyist game for the XBox.
Microsoft is selling X-Box at a loss, they need to make profits by selling software. If some slick hacker buys 10,000 X-Boxen and converts them to PCs, Microsoft makes no money.
Which is Microsoft's problem. Commercial entities have no "devine right" to make money. Companies not making a profit is part of the normal scheme of things.
Since Microsoft have extensive cash reserves they will probably stick around long enough for some shareholder lawsuits. For gambling on a risky business model and not having it pay off.
Um ... hello? This is so illogical it makes my head spin. The only reason people can claim that piracy drives up the cost of games is that if more people were buying games, you could create an economy of scale (or something), thus resulting in lower prices for all. If I choose to pirate a game--and I don't, but that's another story--the impact on the bottom line of the game manufacturer is exactly the same--exactly--as if I had just not purchased it at all. If someone chooses not to buy a game, whether for piracy or because there's a better platform available, it has the same effect on you.
But you're also assuming that the price of games is being determined by market forces. Sure, and so are CD prices....
Read Bujold. Free (as in
MS have never said Xbox would be "integrable" with "other stuff". They never pushed the fact that it was based on standard PC parts. They always pushed it as a killer game console, nothing else.
There will never be a "commercial OS" to run on the Xbox, if MS have anything to do with it. Repeat after me: It's a game console, not a PC.
The online service has not been opened yet, but even so you can still play half a dozen games, including Halo, Tony Hawk (2X & 3) and Nascar Heat, over the net. Not quite "no inter-web games available", whatever that means. When Xbox Live opens in a few weeks, there will be dozens of net-based games, as promised.
And clearly you haven't looked at what uses the hard drive HAS been getting. First off, virtually infinite save games. Second, rip your music & play it from there without the CD, or play it instead of a game's supplied soundtrack (this is really nice). Third, caching game data really does speed up game load times, especially during the game itself. Fourth, it allows you to add content to a game, as DOA3 did with their recent bonus add-on disc.
Fifth, and most important, games are starting to use the hard disk for LARGE amounts of persistent data. Morrowind is a current example of a huge, really detailed world that is simply not possible without the HD. Project Ego is an even more ambitious RPG that preserves & evolves every last detail of the world - forget doing that on a memory save card!
And of course they're pissed off at modders. They will oppose anything that gives people a reason to buy the Xbox (which they take a loss on) and not buy games from it, at least until they can break even on the sale of the box. They will (of course) also oppose anything that might promote or allow piracy of games, to protect their publisher partners.
They haven't "given us a bunch of resources", they're selling a game console, just like Sony et al. And just as with the other consoles, people are seeing the Xbox as a challenge - one with more promise than PS2, DC etc, since it has a built-in HD & ethernet, a faster CPU, more RAM, better gfx & sound and it's a largely familiar architecture.
You're complaining that the Xbox is "useless" because of its lack of non-gaming support, yet you claim MS doesn't belong in the gaming industry? Make up your mind.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
You could build your own opensource box, sure. People do it every day, it's called a PC. But PCs aren't being subsidised to the tune of $150. You just can't build a better "piece of junk" for that $199.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
If you don't like their licensing terms, don't buy their product.
Try telling that to the power company. Microsoft is a monopoly.
CBDTPA (or whatever else comes out of those smoke-filled rooms in Hollywood) will require all computers to come with a digital rights management operating system. Microsoft has a patent on digital rights management operating systems. Therefore, Microsoft Palladium will be the only legal operating system for the next 20 years, and I'd bet money that when that term expires, Microsoft will lobby hard for a Cherilyn LaPierre Patent Term Extension Act.
Will I retire or break 10K?
There's an old story...a little girl finds a rattler shivering out on a cold rock. "Help me" it feebly croaks.
The little girl was a naive but nice one, and she knelt down to ask how she could help.
"Let me nestle in the warmth of your jacket...I'm cold." it whispered pitifully.
She obliged, and when she did, the snake bit her, sinking its fangs deep into her side. She instantly began to feel faint. She fell down, her head swimming as the poison spread in her body.
"Why? Why did you do this to me?" she said with her dying breath.
The rattler laughed. "You knew what I was when you picked me up." It laughed some more and slithered away.
End of story time.
Anyone who looks at X-Box with an eye towards modding or indie development or MAME or even "backups" (nudge nudge, wink wink) is kidding themselves. Microsoft put tons and tons of barriers to cracking in the X-Box, but did they realistically think that they would go unmolested? Nah. So they have their plan "B" and are using it.
Even Sega, who got out of the Dreamcast business a year ago, is still going after DC hackers. Remember what happened with the Lik-Sang programmer cable fiasco? And why was the Broadband Adapter pulled so quickly after it was released? And they are least harsh of all the console manufacturers.
Sony are bastards and so are Nintendo, but MS has made its bones by being the roughest, toughest, baddest-ass on the block. Yeah, they got medieval on the asses of people who wrote an emulator for X-Box. Did you expect anything else from them? Yeesh.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
There are limitations on what a license can legitimately restrict. "Cannot be resold to black people" would probably be struck down in court. One can make the argument -- and make it well -- that when Microsoft sold you the box, the operative "license" is exactly the same as when Sears sells you a screwdriver. There is a common law understanding of what purchasing means, and although corps are trying to obscure that, it remains.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
It only costs the price of the modem and a broadband access to play online (a one time purchase).
Broadband is not a one-time purchase but rather a recurring monthly expense. DSL or cable would cost $200 per month for me, because the service contracts run for at least a year, and I'm only home three months out of the year. (I'm at school for the other nine months, and they've restricted all gaming and P2P ports to 14.4.) Some of my friends don't even live in an area where cable or DSL is available; your "one-time purchase" would cost upwards of $200,000 to move house. Most gamers would not be willing to pay that much, and this is why most online games (including Q3A engine games) still support dial-up connections, to reach the largest possible market.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Would some AC be so kind as to post XBox MAME to Freenet and post the key here anonymously?
Copyright Violation:"theft, piracy"::Anti-Trust Violation:"thermonuclear price terrorism"<-Overly dramatic language.
Once I own an X Box I should be able to do whatever the hell I want to do woth it..including installing whatever software and hardware I please....
why can't I do what I want with it?
Because it's illegal to rent PC video games in the United States (17 USC 109(b)) without the copyright holder's permission, and do you think Joe's Video Rental will have the time and money to negotiate contracts with all major PC entertainment software publishers?
Because you can't rent PC games, it becomes much harder to try them before you buy them because many of the demos distributed over the Internet are either 200 megabytes (bad for users in areas that can't receive broadband) or non-interactive FMVs.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Actually, the don't have any right to limit what you can do with the hardware you bought. If they sold it to you for a loss, stupid them. The hardware itself is completely yours to do with as you please. What MS is using, and what companies who invoke legal action for hacking systems generally use, is the fact that in some part of the hacked system, MS-developed software is being used. In the case of this, its the code in the XDK. Since software isn't bought in the traditional sense, but instead licensed, they have a hook to stick it to you legally. Companies can use BIOS code in a similar manner. What we need now is somebody to make a clone of the XDK software (maybe using stuff from WINE...) so resulting binaries are "clean." That would stick it to them!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
No Love From Microsoft For Xbox Modders (Score:-1, Fucking Obvious)
Really, you don't think they put all that effort into locking down the X-box just so people could try to crack it, do you?
The questioned post attempts to represent the character and qualities of Microsoft and their software as similar in comparison to an asshole and shit, respectively.
Use the SDK to build gcc.
In practice, a cross-compiling port of the GNU Compiler Collection also requires a port of GNU Binutils, which is strictly not part of the GCC project, but is almost always distributed alongside GCC. Binutils contains the assembler and the linker. The Xbox SDK's linker signs the code with Microsoft's private key, and parties to whom the Xbox SDK is disclosed are contractually restricted from disclosing Microsoft's private key. The unmodded Xbox will not run unsigned software. Therefore, how will you make a linker whose output the Xbox will accept?
Will I retire or break 10K?
A dollar a gallon for premium???
This is what I immediately thought, but the confusion comes from the fact that "premium" appears in both the phrases "pay a premium" (pay more than one would normally pay) and "premium petrol" (petrol with more than 90 percent octane). Grandparent was referring to the former sense, such that if 93% octane petrol normally cost US$1.50 per gallon, Microsoft Gasoline would cost US$2.50 per gallon, a $1.00 premium over the other brands.
And with the combination of the CBDTPA mandating DRM and Microsoft's patent on DRM, Microsoft may be able to pull it off with the force of U.S. law.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Of course, every one of us would also be experiencing crashes and blue screens of death every day. And then there would be the internet email worms that would cause the million car pile-ups.
Computers have become faster and better. Software, for the most part, has just gotten bigger and more complicated.
My other first post is car post.
However, they could add a field in all .DOC files containing a small piece of MS IP, such as a BMP of the Word logo or something, in future versions of the .DOC format.
This is exactly how the Nintendo Game Boy and Game Boy Advance "protection" schemes work, by including a small bitmap of the Nintendo logo in the header. But Nintendo can't enforce it in the United States because of the Sega v. Accolade precedent. In addition, the DMCA's circumvention ban makes an explicit exemption for reverse engineering aimed at interoperability 17 USC 1201(f).
Note that the Supremes are more fair than U.S. district courts.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I've had lots of fun writing stuff for the GBA, but I'm ready for a more powerful platform now. I'm looking forward to writing a hobbyist game for the XBox.
Don't try developing for the Xbox. Develop for the Lbox instead. An Lbox is a standard PCI-bus PC with an NVIDIA GeForce video card installed, running Linux, X11, SDL, and OpenGL. You'll find the Lbox SDK at many fine software stores, under the name "Red Hat Linux 7.3".
Developing for the Lbox will be 100% legal unless and until the U.S. Congress passes the CBDTPA.
Will I retire or break 10K?
If it was that 'easy' you wouldn't be able to get PS2 modchips so easily. Modchip companies are generally on a good solid legal basis for operation, by providing 'substantianl non infringing uses' and they've got case law (VCR technology) to back them up in court.
The DMCA doesn't illegalize modchips, because if it had sony would have put all the majors out of buisness in the past few years.
Chipzone, which has been selling modchips since 1998 is currently offering an X-box modchip here
It's expensive now, at $70, but it does everything, from de-macrovision, to multi region capabilities (with dongles?), playing DVD-r backups, it will run Mame-X, and apparently the solder points are all 'easy' (but it's nearly 30 of them.)
No, microsoft will have a much easier time shutting down developers like the mame-x project than the modchip sellers/makers. Remember, sony's laywers spent years in courts trying to shut places like chipzone down. They lost, and so will microsoft.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Don't fall for the BS. When you buy an X-Box you have BOUGHT one. When you buy HALO you also BOUGHT a copy of Halo, you did NOT license it. If there isn't a signed contract it is a SALE.
This of course does not mean you can do anything you please with that copy of Halo. Your use is governed by the copyright laws in your location. But the publisher cannot impose any additional terms and conditions on your use of the copy so long as you don't expect them to PROVIDE anything above and beyond supplying you with a working copy. I.E. support, upgrades, etc.
Democrat delenda est
If a Xbox with a modchip runs the program, I'll call it a success.
What if Microsoft cracks down hard on Xbox modchip makers and gets USA Government to crack down on countries that don't comply with WIPO, as it has been doing lately? What if an Xbox with a modchip is no longer available, except on eBay for $3,000? Then it becomes pointless to port an app to a $3,000 modded Xbox when the Lbox is available from Wal*Mart for $500.
Fuck USA Government. Fuck PoizonBOx.
Will I retire or break 10K?
This being a primarily US forum, I was referring to US copyright.
US law is based on British common law, and in it's origins was almost a direct transplant. Discussing the basis of US law while ignoring those roots is like discussing the history of the automobile while denying the existence of the horse and cart.
The market for XBox software is not a physical thing.
But we aren't talking about XBox software here, are we? We're talking about the XBox itself, which is physical, and what I can do with it once I've purchased it. What software Microsoft chooses to make available to me above and beyond the purchase of that hardware is totally irrelevant.
True, but you can't necesarily use the intellectual property contents of said piece of hardware.
Yes I absolutely can. The only restriction is that I can't sell a product based on any of that IP that is patented, and that is the only restriction placed upon me with regards to hardware which I have purchased.
I can make all the go-carts I want using Honda 2-cycle engines from motorcycles and lawnmowers. I can modify those engines however I want to increase power, efficiency, cooling, you name it. That is my right as the purchaser of a piece of hardware. The only thing I can't do is build and sell a clone of the V-Twin engine, because Honda owns the patent on that technology.
Similarly, I can reprogram my XBox to control my sprinkler system if I want to, or I can port Linux to it, or I can write my own games for it. The only thing MS can do to stop me is hide the APIs to make it more difficult for me to do that.
The tricky point is where you draw the line - does writing code that runs on an XBox require the use of MS intellectual property?
The line is already drawn. The only point at which MS can control this is through the licensing on the XBox Developers Kit. They can't prevent the source code from being distributed, they can only prevent the distribution of binaries produced using the XDK, and then only because those binaries include code copyrighted by MS. If someone produced a binary that didn't rely on any of their code, there wouldn't be a goddamn thing they could do about it. They know that, and they are relying on the fact that it will require a non-MS XDK to be written from scratch, which will be difficult and time consuming.
This question could be resolved, as I suggested, by the creation of a legal safe harbour that protects the console market. If it's in the interests of the general public, then a law can reasonably be enacted.
I don't think you have adequately thought through the consequences of such a law. It is absolutely not in the interest of the general public. What you are proposing is the equivalent of requiring all automobile service to be done using factory parts by dealer mechanics, and making all options, such as upgraded stereo, sporty graffics, spoilers, tinted windows, etc., mandatory at the time of purchase. How would that benefit the consumer? And if it doesn't benefit the consumer, how can you possibly argue that it is in the interest of the general public?
By refusing MS the right to safely create a low cost of entry console, you're pissing in the pool. Everybody loses, because consoles become too expensive to be a practical business model.
Bullshit. No one is refusing MS the right to safely create a low cost console, they've failed to do that all by themselves. You are suggesting that their piss-poor design and planning should be subsidized by law, and I am calling that the stupidest idea I've heard in a really long time.
Sony and Nintendo have both produced consoles which they can sell for less at a profit, and which are more compelling offers in terms of what's available on those platforms. If MS, or any other company, wants to offer a product that costs more, there needs to be a compelling reason for people to pay that price.
Intel has historically been a prime example of this concept. Historically, you could buy an Intel CPU or you could by a CPU from one of the various clone manufacturers; lets say Cyrix, just for an example. You could buy a Cyrix processor and it would run all your software, or you could buy an Intel and it would run all your software better, faster, and more stable. The Cyrix costs a lot less, but the Intel offers a compelling advantage for the increased price. That's why Intel has been on top of the CPU market, despite being more expensive than others offering the same basic functionality.
MS has failed to offer compelling functionality for the increased cost, and for that reason they now must sell the hardware at a loss and hope to regain that loss on software royalties when people buy games for it.
Halo is the only reason I would consider buying an XBox. I am perfectly within my rights to buy an XBox solely for the purpose of playing Halo and never purchasing another game ever again. MS loses money on me and it's their own damn fault.
Under the current situation, it is on MS and their developers to offer me additional software that I want in order for them to make a profit. Under the law you suggest I would be forced to buy additional software, even though it sucks (and it would suck, since there is no compelling reason for MS to produce anything compelling under that scenario).
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Actually, they're not going for 10 games+ a console. They're going for 2-4 games, with network support (10$ a month or so). This is why the ethernet port is standard (it makes it much easier to sell 3rd party people on this feature). This is why such things as the HD for streaming updates (required for MMORPGs -- remember the Phantasty Star Online v1 and v2 releases for the DC?), and such features as the "nickname" that the Xbox remembers (in such games as DOA3) for use in multiplayer?
Their model isn't stupid. They saw Sony, and the UO people making money hand over fist. They saw the console arena, where people want trouble-free gaming, and also want to try MMORPGs -- money + commitment to gaminf = PROFIT!
It's a fine position. I just don't agree with their other tactics of trying to lock down the box to stop people from using its online features for other things (media boxes, cheap set-top computers).
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.