Microsoft in Peru, Living Room

Two pieces of Microsoft news today. tfofurn writes "According to this AP quickie and this Reuters story, both on Yahoo, Microsoft is donating 'about $550,000 in money, software and consulting services to the Peruvian government for educational and "e-government" initiatives' to Peru. The AP story mentions the conflict of this with Edgar Villanueva's proposal to have the government use only open source software. Villanueva (/. interview), you may recall, wrote a famous letter to MS Peru a few months ago." And many people have submitted stories about Windows XP Media Center, coming this winter to a living room near you.

Comments

Cool

[unformed]

I'm gonna write a letter to Microsoft saying they suck; then they'll send me a bunch of free software, which I can then resell on Ebay.

Yeah! Free Money!

Re:Cool

[NotAnotherReboot]

actually- you don't own it, microsoft just 'licenses it to you'. selling it would be unamerican and go against everything our ideals stand for.

Re:Cool

[dattaway]

No, Microsoft will just overthrow your government and have you executed.

Re:Cool

[(startx)]

It works! No specifically in that order, but still. At our Computer Science Department awards banquet at school last semester we had several corporate "sponsors". Boeing showed, MS sent software, and we had a speaker from U of T I think. A lot of his speech was MS bashing. At the end they gave out "door prizes" for showing up, including the MS software. The first 4 things to go where the 4 retail $1800 copies of MS VS.net ent. dev., all to people who use macs and linux. I got $1000 for mine on ebay, and so did the other 3.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

I already sent a letter to Linus. He gave me a bunch of free software (and the source).

Hmm

[BlackMesaResearchFac]

I walked in on my parents once when they were having a(n AP) quickie.

Will everybody do the same?

[jmv]

It seems like MS is sending the message: "If you want to have 'free' MS software, say you're going Linux". Wonder how many organizations/countries without any intent to switch to Linux (will) have "Linux programs" just for negotiating with MS?

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[The Rogue86]

M$ is just 'helping' a 3rd world country compute. Is that so wrong? i mean really you are Peru and need computers, Linux makes computers cheeper because there is no OS license to pay for wouldnt you see if you could score some more standardized software off of microsoft. quality asside they need quantity and microsoft is making it happen so while they may be evil - BACK OFF they are trying to help in the only way they know how. i dont see you helping them out with money or computers. and here comes the negative karma well ill live i guess.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[pubjames]

It seems like MS is sending the message: "If you want to have 'free' MS software, say you're going Linux". Wonder how many organizations/countries without any intent to switch to Linux (will) have "Linux programs" just for negotiating with MS?

Yes, I've thought this too. I think Microsoft is just trying to hold back the tide at the moment. The strategy of giving software or substantially lowering prices for anyone who is thinking to moving to OSS is one that can only work in the short term. Unfortunately for Microsoft, there's not much else they can do. I think well just see more desparate attempts to lock their customers in in the future. As Steve Ballamer said the other day, they are no longer "the cheapest on the block" - he was essentially saying that it's difficult to compete with free.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, look at how many billions of dollars Microsoft is worth-- the company has plenty of spare change. If a government decides to use a competitors' operating system, there is little disinsentive to stop you from giving yours away for free-- because it costs you practically nothing. Mmm.. if your "free" software locks a government into using MS software, then the government's people must use MS software to read documents. MS didn't say anything about giving away free software to the country's people.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are unemployeeeed, it's probably because you can't spell or form a coherent paragraph.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Jobe_br]

Unfortunately, with Microsoft's cash reserves and assets, they can afford to give out free software for quite a long time. However, in some respects, I believe this is illegal (underselling the competition) in the long term, though we've seen what effects the justice system has on MS: none.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Malor]

Sure, but this is only a temporary gambit. Once you're hooked on Microsoft, getting yourself off it is terribly painful and difficult.

This is not a gift. It is a free sample from a drug dealer.

Consider... even if lots of countries start talking about Linux every time they want free software from Microsoft, there will eventually come a time when Microsoft will just chuckle and tell them to go right ahead. By then, they'll have built enough 'issues' into interoperability with free software that it will be difficult to make it work without totally ripping out the existing infrastructure... and very, very few politicians will have the guts to put their governments through that kind of pain.

I hope that Peru has enough foresight to ignore this 'gift'. Mr. Villaneuva shows extraordinary intelligence in his analysis of free software, which gives me hope that they may indeed see the iron fist under the velvet glove.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[The Rogue86]

what did i kick your puppy or something. i dont care what you think. i at least put my name on my comment. which makes you some sort of creature that is scarde of the dark or something.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[rnturn]

``However, in some respects, I believe this is illegal..''

IMHO, this is the same as the dumping of steel or grain (or whatever) by some company into a foreign company to stifle the development of domestic competition. I'm not sure if it's illegal per se but if Microsoft were a foreign company and tried this stunt in the U.S., it'd probably trigger an import tariff being assessed to their software. {\sarcasm But it's OK if an American company does it to another country}.

Does Peru have much of a domestic software industry that could complain about this? Probably not. Or at least not one with enough money to combat this latest MS tactic.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[MaxwellStreet]

Without meaning to restate the obvious, MS is trying to keep their foot in the Peruvian door - whole countries are starting to reconsider their Microsoft tax, and MS wants to nip this sort of thinking in the bud.

If you honestly believe they're "just 'helping' a 3d world country compute" - you're hopelessly naive.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Saxerman]

Wonder how many organizations/countries without any intent to switch to Linux (will) have "Linux programs" just for negotiating with MS?

In the end I'm sure Microsoft will be more than happy to give every world government who wants it some "free" MS software. Remember what the actual cost of the software and CDs is, and how they get to write it off as a tax deductable donation at the retail cost. Then note that after a few years of running under the shackles of Microsoft it's hard to escape. Then MS recoups their 'costs' in your renewed licensing fees. Or, more simply:

1) Give away 'free' software
2) ???
3) Profit

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahahahaha
Yeah, right
A 'customer' or potential customer is considering using MS's biggest , feared compeitior - OSS/FreeSoftware... and then they come up with this altruisitc donation!!
MS 'helps' nobody but them selves here, Peru gets tied to MS... and, Peru probably will $PAY$ to upgrade, they won't support Linux, they'll stay hooked on the MS platform du jour.. .
Mentioning bad karma makes you look like a dork ass by the way

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[kasperd]

If that would result in more people knowing about Linux MS could actually be doing us a favour. If some of the persons had to try using Linux just to prove they were not bluffing, it could be even better. Some of the people just wanting MS software for free might end up liking Linux.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[malakai]

Oh please.

And if you were a company 100% on Linux or some other Unix flavor, you think switching to MS would not be "terribly painful and difficult".

It's like this for any large company that does the most minor switch. OS switches are simply 10x more painfull. Try switching email clients, or email servers, or version control systems, or development environments... that's pain.

Also, once your hooked on MS, the only reason you want to get off that boat is generally because of $$$. Which is generally going to pay for you to switch to some other system. But you forget, most companies are completely satisfied with the MS desktop/server line and consider the expense an investment. And at many companies, this expenses is so small compared with their bottom line, the concept of switching in order to save money will not make business sense. If it works, and does what they want it to do, why switch?

-malakai

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Malcontent]

I don't want to single out Peru but in most countries in the world (including the US) corporations can grease the palms to get what they want.

It would not surprise me one bit to find out that a good chunk of this money will end up in the hands of politicians or their friends and families. There are also probably all kinds of back door deals in the works too.

To MS it's a trivial to spend a million or two bribing a third world country. The money goes a long way and they will get it back when the country upgrades.

Until open source advocates start bribing politicians MS will win.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Jason Earl]

During Christmas time it is a fairly common practice (or it used to be when I lived in Peru) for the police to simply pull over motorists and demand money. Bribes are very commonplace in Peru any time of the year, but during Christmas the police stop even pretending to be upholding the law. They have got guns and you don't, and their children need Christmas presents and Paneton.

Lima is a city of something like 7 million people and this "donation" is supposed to help something like 20,000 students (a pittance). My guess is that it ends up helping far fewer students than that, and all of the help will likely go to the rich private schools that the politicos send their children too.

Unfortunately it is impossible to do business in Peru without bribery. I am just surprised that Bill Gates himself is delivering the money. When I first heard that Peru was looking at Free Software legislation I was very skeptical. There are lots of good people in Peru, and I don't doubt that Dr. Villanueva is an honest man and a patriot, but honest Peruvian officials are few and far between.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[einer]

And if you were a company 100% on Linux or some other Unix flavor, you think switching to MS would not be "terribly painful and difficult".

Well, uhm... No. At least, not AS difficult. You see, Linux uses well defined standards and file formats instead of proprietary, constantly changing ones.

If it works, and does what they want it to do, why switch?

The business case for switching isn't JUST saving money. It's weening yourself off of said proprietary formats. Being locked in to a certain format might not be expensive RIGHT NOW, but using open formats means that it will never be any more expensive.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

If it works, and does what they want it to do, why switch?

Because in Peru, they are trying to put a lot of the government on-line. With Microsoft .NET, you have to be running Windows to access the .NET servers. So the government would have to ensure that every single Peruvian citizen has a computer capable of running Microsoft Windows .NET, as well as a license for Microsoft Windows .NET. With a large population (about 30 million), the licensing fees alone are over $1 billion US dollars.

That's a reason. This is not a company with 200 employees. This is a government, trying to run on-line. This means all citizens must have access. $200 Microsoft Windows .NET licenses for 30 million people is NOT AN OPTION.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[gorilla]

However, if you are on a variant of Unix, converting to another one is not as difficult as converting to/from a non-Unix like OS. I once had a junior programmer, who had been using C only for a few months, covert an application from NCR's SVR2 Unix to HP-UX. It took him about a week, with most of the time elapsed upgrading the ISAM interface. Having an alternative vendor available can be a wonderful tool when you're trying to negotigate a contract.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Jason Earl]

Most of the desktop software that I use on Linux is available on Windows. OpenOffice, Mozilla, the Gimp, Emacs, LaTeX are all readily available. The software that isn't available generally has Windows equivalents.

The moral of the story is that Free Software allows you to avoid vendor lock in, which is good.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

This morning I told them I was switching to Linux, but they didn't give me a free compiler. :(

Of course, maybe they knew I switched in 1995. Jerks.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[SN74S181]

I would say that Unix uses well defined standards and file formats. Further, I would say that various Linux distros, in their drive to become more 'user friendly' are slowly drifting over to running GUI croft and goop to replace well defined standards and file formats.

A big part of why I bailed to running NetBSD. All the references in the O'Reilly books still work.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Mark Pitman]

With Microsoft .NET, you have to be running Windows to access the .NET servers.

That depends on what your definition of .Net is. If you are talking about web sites built using ASP.Net, then you can access them with any OS and browser (within reason). I don't see a government making information available to the public through any other means than websites/web applications, distributing custom client software would be a major pain.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Jobe_br]

No, and remember that the letter from the MS President/Peru indicated that the local software industry would be HURT if the gov't. decreased its reliance on MS. So, one would imagine that in Peru's case, the local software industry will embrace this move by MS and the Peru gov't.

Sad, though.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

The trick was to have an Amdhal coffee cup on your
desk when the IBM salesman came a callin'.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[malakai]

And what exactly are these horrible proprietary and constantly changing file formats? And the standards?

-malakai

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[GSloop]

How about MS Word, Access, Excel and Powerpoint?

How about how Word 95 can't open any Word 97 docs. (Before you say, everyone does this... what was the necessity for this. If the upgrade was dramatically diferent, and it wasn't possible to use the same format, I might go easy - in this case, it seems really hard to make that argument.)

How about Access 97 vs 2000...

How about MS SQL Server, and your "special" extensions to SQL.

How about Active X, C#, HTML that only works on IE.

How about Kerberos?

How about breaking the OS/2 3.X compatibility mode every time they did virtually anything to Windows.

How about the totally bogus error messages you got in the beta versions of Windows 3.x when you were using DR Dos?

(Some of these are not propriatary file formats, but clearly demonstrate the capability and willingness to use despicable acts to maintain their power - and keep you by the short hairs.)

MS probably has one of the worst records of ANY company in the history of the computer industry. Locking you into a specific "hamster wheel" is their specialty.

If you like being MS's "hamster" go ahead. Many of the rest of us don't really care for it. For many reasons, money out of our pocket being one of them.

Cheers!

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

> And what exactly are these horrible proprietary and constantly changing file formats? And the standards?

MS Office file formats - incompatible even amongst members of the same 'family' of apps, often due to inadequate developer documentation.

MS exchange mail file - a complex database, not a standard (as in IETF) mailbox format. Can't be readily imported into another mail pgm.

Changing standards: the attempts to proprietize Kerebos; the ongoing attempts to make SMB a MS-only technology (haven't broken Samba yet, though); the MS-specific extensions to HTML. The attempts to break Java with MS-specific, undocumented as such, extensions in the Java core libraries and lack of support for required Java runtime features (RMI, JNI).

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[malakai]

FUD FUD Everywhere...
I seem to have to do this about once a month on slashdot, so I may as well get it out of the way now.

How about MS Word, Access, Excel and Powerpoint?

Word, Excel, and Powerpoint formats have been released by MS. Word and Excel are actually supported binary formats (You can call their dev-support line if you have some issue with accessing the file structure). Power-point is not support, but is not confidential/proprietary.

Ok, if you don't want to write your own program to read the format, save you data in common formats then RTF for Word and HTML for Word/Excel/Power Point.
Anytime an office 2k and later application saves to HTML it really means 'save to XML'. Look at the file, it's pretty easy to comprehend, and it's documented as well.

Access? Access is an ugly mutt of a programming language and database. There is no alternative to Access on Linux unless your going to rewrite it in some other language/db. What do you expect the format to be? It's heavily dependent on VBA, and the database engine more recently is closer to SQL then any of the old Jet systems. The MDB file actually contains p-code 'compiled' by the VBA subsystem. Asking for a format to something as ugly and complicated as that is insane.
Do you expect Oracle to open up their database binary format? Should all the binary data files in lotus notes be standardized and published?

How about how Word 95 can't open any Word 97 docs.

How about RTFM. When you roll out Word 97, it by default maintains compatability with Word 95. It does this at the cost of disk space (writes both versions basically). You can configure Word 97 to only save as Word 95 as well. Also, MS provided Word import converters for the other direction.

Why was this done? Progress. You've heard about that right? Sometimes, when your a programmer, you make near sighted decisions that later bite you in the ass. Other times you come up with a better way of doing something, and you weight the change.

The Office team wanted Office 97 formats to be DocFiles, it's part of OLE 2.0, look it up it was all the rage in 1995. Basically, it allows multiple binary streams per document. Docfiles also provide their own internal mechanisms for subdirectories, locking, and transaction (i.e., commit/rollback) semantics. This has all sorts of other wonderfull benefits to us developers. Rather than let themselves and their features be forever locked in place due to old format, they bit the bullet and went for the change.

How about Access 97 vs 2000

See above paragraph. Change is a good thing. It means something is still alive.

How about MS SQL Server, and your "special" extensions to SQL

That's right, extensions. OPTIONAL FEATURES YOU MAY CHOOSE TO USE. SQL 92 and the other standards work just fine on SQL Server. You aren't forced to use the extensions. They are well labeled. You make a decision at design time, "Do I plan to be tied to SQL? Do I want to be able to leverage other RDMS systems?" Based on those choices you may decided to begin to use xp_sendMail or NOT TO. As a developer, I'd recommend against it. the xp_* procedures are nice for testing, or making some custom admin jobs, but if you use them in an app that is going to need to be RDMS neutral, you are the fault. Do you think developers are stupid enough to acidentally use an xp_ procedure and not know it's specific to MS SQL Server? "Duh, i didn't know Oracle didn't have xp_msver command! How can I tell what Window Version this is runnning on!"

How about Active X, C#, HTML that only works on IE.

Active X is a standard. Implement it as a plugin, and walla, it works on Netscape. Oh wait, someone's already done it. Implementing it to work on another OS is a bit more of a challenge, but simply that... a challenge. You can do it if you'd like, it's well documented.
I have no idea what your're problem is with C#. My guess is you don't fully understand the CLR. Here's a hint, with certain OSS projects in the works, your C# code will work on Linux. Walk in peace in this enlightenment. Oh yeah, C# the language itself (.net aside) is completely documented. Implement it however you want.

As for HTML that only works in IE, this is a subject we could spend hours on. Most of the time, the reason HTML works in IE and not in NS, is because IE is more FORGIVING. It overlooks a lot of your errors. DOM, CSS, HTML (the actual standard, not what you were refering to be anything inside a web page) and many other _STANDARDS_ are well documented and each browser has very well known pluses and minuses in how it handles any 1 of thousands of test. Pick some specific issue if you want to further that line of dicussion.

How about Kerberos?

I'm going to assume you mean the extension added to the kerberos protocol so it would work in MS AD model? God forbid they use an EXPLICITLY ALLOWED vendor specific extension field for EXACTLY the purpose it was built for in the Kerberos specification. It's in the protocol for a reason.

How about breaking the OS/2 3.X compatibility mode every time they did virtually anything to Windows.

Being that was written by the IBM guys back when NT was the next OS/2 I sympothize (as a developer) with MS having to maintain someone elses subsystem every time they tried to make NT better.
And I say this rarely to (valid) points such as this, but... who cares. That subsystem was horrible.

How about the totally bogus error messages you got in the beta versions of Windows 3.x when you were using DR Dos?

How about we worry about what's going on now, rather than bitch about things that no doubt happened in the past and no doubt we not 'good'.
My guess is you're not trying to do a Dr. Dos upgrade to Win3.x beta right now. After all we're talking about going Window shop to linux and vice versa.

MS probably has one of the worst records of ANY company in the history of the computer industry. Locking you into a specific "hamster wheel" is their specialty.

OK, so long as we don't get into generalizations.

If you like being MS's "hamster" go ahead. Many of the rest of us don't really care for it. For many reasons, money out of our pocket being one of them

I guess as a developer, they've only put money into the my pockets (and bank accounts).

Just remember, "Everybody hurts.... sometimes...."

-malakai

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're dating yourself, fellow pre-historian.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Malcontent]

What the hell I'll take a swipe at it.

" Word, Excel, and Powerpoint formats have been released by MS"

Not all of it. Some of it relies on OLE so it can not be used on any other OS. Some of it is patented.

"When you roll out Word 97, it by default maintains compatability with Word 95."

I think he meant it the other way. MS arbitrarily changed the word format for a minor upgrade. This forced people to upgrade to 97 when they got files written in 97 and 95 would not open it. By default word did not save documents in RTF or 95 format. He was not talking about backward compatibility.

"OPTIONAL FEATURES YOU MAY CHOOSE TO USE. SQL 92 "

MS SQL server by default uses case insensitive collation which is not SQL 92 compliant. That's just one I bet I can find a few more if I dig around.

" Active X is a standard."

Very funny! Which standard body approved it?

"You can do it if you'd like, it's well documented."

If it was easy it would have been done but it's damned near impossible. Besides who knows what inside is patented.

" your C# code will work on Linux."

Well except that you can't code GUI and Database which makes it just about useless outside of .NET.

"As for HTML that only works in IE, this is a subject we could spend hours on."

You are conveniently overlooking the many "extensions" IE supports. I know you have to do that because (apparently) it's your job to spread MS FUD here but we all have visited sites which are useless in non IE borwsers. From vbscript to activeX controls, to proprietary tags. Embrace and extend.

"God forbid they use an EXPLICITLY ALLOWED vendor specific extension field for EXACTLY the purpose it was built for in the Kerberos specification. It's in the protocol for a reason."

The guys who programmed the protocol never even imagined that somebody would use that field and not document it. Furthermore they never in a thousand years imagined that somebody would protect it as a trade secret. Sometimes people who are good, decent and honest presume everybody is the same they never once considered that evil people would take advantage of them. I bet they are all kicking themselves now for not releasing the original code as GPL. MS took the code and used it to shut out linux and freebsd shame on them.

" How about we worry about what's going on now,"

When you are talking about the character of somebody it's perfectly OK to point out evil acts in their past. Should we ignore the past records of child molesters, murderers and rapist because "they are not doing it now"?.

" OK, so long as we don't get into generalizations."

Nice. You totaly destroyed his argument.

" I guess as a developer, they've only put money into the my pockets (and bank accounts). "

Good for you! During the communist regime in the soviet republic people stood in bread lines but there were always a few who made out like bandits. In a totalitatian govt the masses starve and the party heads drive bentleys. Sure you made money but a bunch of people paid to buy crappy shit that broke, were coerced into buying shit they did not want, were denied competing products, yadda yadda yadda. I'm glad you made out great just recognize that a ton of people got ripped off.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[SgtChaireBourne]

In many latin american countries it's not just Christmas, but those dry periods right before payday. The amount usually varied dependent one your ethnic background and social status. Once when we got pulled over and in too much of a hurry to argue the price of the bribe down, the driver just reached down into a bag of mixed change and handed a large fist full of coins to the police officer... and drove off while the officer was still disoriented, before he could count it. We got off for less than $3 USD.

I think the case is similar here. For a country as large as Peru, $550 000 USD is chump change even for hardware. When you start talking about the sum in terms of "licensing" and "consulting" it's even less. Besides, Toledo and his entourage probably spent more than that on the trip up to see Bill. Odds are Toledo will take all this into consideration and we'll see *BSD and Linux as a result.

At least when Mr. Tony sucks up to Bill as a play against his political opponents he maintains a facade of dignitiy by doing the meetings on his home turf. Maybe he uses the cuisine as a lure. ;)

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[ultrabot]

I guess as a developer, they've only put money into the my pockets (and bank accounts).

So you are not able to program in non-ms environments? Is this some kind of new form of brain damage I'm not familiar with? Surely, any developer with half a brain (i.e, excluding vb coders) would be able to program for unix platform instead of windows - considering that it's easier.

Besides, being a developer is not all about money. Knowing that you are doing the "right thing" goes long way into making one feel that one is doing something meaningful, in the long term. And part of the "right thing" usually happens to be avoiding MS products where feasible. And especially avoiding donating any of one's precious mindshare to microsoft.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[mpe]

This is not a company with 200 employees. This is a government, trying to run on-line. This means all citizens must have access. $200 Microsoft Windows .NET licenses for 30 million people is NOT AN OPTION.

Also using a software system from a foreign company (quite possibly from a hostile contry) is not a good idea. Wonder how happy the average US citzen would be if all US government used Peruvian, even Iraqi, software....
Considering the size of Peru 30 million is a fairly small population.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[rnturn]

``...the letter from the MS President/Peru indicated that the local software industry would be HURT if the gov't''

{emphasis mine]

Oh, well, there's an unbiased viewpoint for you.

So by software industry, Microsoft means companies that sell services for Microsoft products. IMHO, those folks would only temporarily be affected by a switch. MS system wouldn't disappear overnight. The local service community would still have jobs supporting the existing system, they'd be able to learn new skills related to OSS, and they'd be able to support the new systems. Where's the problem? This sort of change in technology and required skills happens all the time.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[malakai]

So you are not able to program in non-ms environments?

I've programed in non-ms environments. They money tends to be much better in MS environments. Why should I starve just to 'avoid' Microsoft?

Besides, being a developer is not all about money.

Well, I have a lifestyle I enjoy, and it requires a certain mean income. If I were to fall below that mean, I would not be able to maintain that style of living, and that would make me sad. So in a way, for me, being a developer is about making money.

Knowing that you are doing the "right thing" goes long way into making one feel that one is doing something meaningful, in the long term. And part of the "right thing" usually happens to be avoiding MS products where feasible

It's logic like that which scares me. Nothing in this world is so perfectly exact as "right" and "wrong", "good" and "evil". MS has been good to it's developers. I enjoy using their tool-sets, and my clients enjoy what I build with them. And best of all, I enjoy building it. Your grievances with some part of MS, while no doubt important, are but one aspect of a multi-faceted corporate entity. I'm not inclined to throw the baby out with the bath water.

And especially avoiding donating any of one's precious mind-share to Microsoft

Every time you mention "M$" or make some derogatory vague accusation toward them, you're donating 'precious mind-share to Microsoft'.

As much as people wish MS was the Scientology of the Software world, they aren't. The numbers that fall to each side in these debates will always be about even. Which should tell you something about the argument itself.

-malakai

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[malakai]

MS arbitrarily changed the word format for a minor upgrade

It wasn't arbitrary. It was a major shift between major versions. It was well publicized before hand, and I know, at the time, my IT department was ready for it

This forced people to upgrade to 97 when they got files written in 97 and 95 would not open it.

No. If someone in Word97 disabled the compatibility mode, then someone in Word 95 to read Word 97, would have to use the (free download) Word97 Importer for Word 95.

MS SQL server by default uses case insensitive collation which is not SQL 92 compliant. That's just one I bet I can find a few more if I dig around.

This is a myth. Look up the SQL 92 standard and tell me where you see that default implementation of the DBMS is supposed to be "case insensitive collation". SQL92 leaves it implementation-dependent.
What you probably mean is "SQL Server doesn't have the same defaults as Oracle". Which is true. I don't really no which one is better, because I don't do much Unicode work, where this really begins to matter. But the default SQL Server has been using all these years came from the Sybase SQL Server code-base.

You are conveniently overlooking the many "extensions" IE supports. I know you have to do that because (apparently) it's your job to spread MS FUD here but we all have visited sites which are useless in non IE borwsers. From vbscript to activeX controls, to proprietary tags. Embrace and extend.

Oh, yeah, and Netscape never put in their own HTML extensions. Remeber ISINDEX? PROMPT? not to mention, most of the Netscape extensions did _not_ become part of the HTML standard, while many of the MS ones did. And the HTML standard body was _not_ pro-ms. They were just normal developers who agreed with sane logic. (blink tag excluded, )
And as someone who wrote AX componets, before the 'Internet' took off, the ability to put my AX controls in IE allowed me to port many heavy front-end systems to lighter web-based systems in little or no time. Same thing with the ability to have VB Script on the page. MS put in that ability for people like _ME_. That's loyalty.

The ability to put AX in a page was never intended to make people format their linux hard drives, and install NT to view some page. It was there for us developers who invested a lot of money in AX technology and training. Not to mention, it was part of the whole AX Document stuff which IE was a client to.

I rarely see AX on public internet sites. Many times I see it on intranets, where an IT department has some app which performs something on the client and it's best done as a compiled binary. So I guess everyones BS fear about "AX in IE will force web browsing to be platform specific" was all just FUD (after all, IE is the dominant browser, and browsing is not platform specific). If you have trouble viewing sites, I really doubt it's because of AX. My guess is DOM 1.0 and CSS2 are your biggest hurdles, and that comes down to netscape/opera implementation.

But who cares if someone wanted to put AX on their site. They know they'd be limiting themselves to a specific platform, it's their perogative to do that. Web sites do it everyday when they ask themselves the question "Should we worry about Mac support/testing?". Many times, large sites say "no". And the only reason Macs can view things (generally) fine is because the Graphic Artist who designed the look of the site constantly bugs the web developers with their mac bugs. Otherwise, a company would say "I'm not paying 2x as much for a website just so .5% of my vistors can see it". It's their decision. That's their right.

Well except that you can't code GUI and Database which makes it just about useless outside of .NET

oh really?
And the windows forms may not be complete yet, but they will eventually: here
But who wants ugly window forms on linux? Use GTK

When you are talking about the character of somebody it's perfectly OK to point out evil acts in their past. Should we ignore the past records of child molesters, murderers and rapist because "they are not doing it now"?.

First, it's a corporate entity, not a human entity. If you take into account the turnover rate, it's a completely new MS from back then. Infer from that what little there is, but you can't say it's the same company (is IBM the same company it was 30 years ago? what about the ma'bells?).
As for child molester, rapists and murderers, I take it you're of the mindset that believe once you commit a crime, you can never truly repent and make up for. Scarlet letter them for ever and such. No point in debating that with you, it's an intrinsic belief that won't change.

During the communist regime in the soviet republic people stood in bread lines but there were always a few who made out like bandits.

You don't really want to compare MS v Communism and OSS v Communism do you?

Sure you made money but a bunch of people paid to buy crappy shit that broke, were coerced into buying shit they did not want, were denied competing products, yadda yadda yadda

Well, I guess here's where I simply have to agree to disagree. As someone that's built many a companies IT networks, and large software solutions that run on top of those networks, I have to say I never had that experience. All my clients have been happy, all still are. The software works, the networks hum, and databases purr.
Granted, I'm not the founder of Dr. Dos. And I'm not saying predatory tactics weren't employed and shouldn't be reprimanded, but again, i don't think the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater. Even if there's lots of starving kids in the world who I could adopt.
MS is an American company, and like most (if not all Fortune 100) companies they play for keeps. they are aggressive, they think out strategies and plans and use tactics more similar to fighting wars then what many would consider 'doing business'. this is the nature of free enterprise. We don't own castles anymore, we own companies. And as head of your own company, you pretty much feel like a king.
Survival of the fittest. Attack with the sun at your back, and from high ground. Don't expect this to be some sort of British battle where both sides line up in equal numbers in the middle of a large field and get to take turns shooting or stabbing each other.

It's corporate Darwinism. No matter how well seated you think a company is, they are always 1 week away from chapter-11.

-malakai

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US bribing politicians it's legal, it's called "lobbying".

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[GSloop]

? "confidential/proprietary"
documented != non-proprietary

"You can do it if you'd like, it's well documented."

documented != non-proprietary

Just because I document how it did it doesn't mean that you can do it yourself. (Not to mention that anyone that I've heard about that tries to write a convertor for Word documents that converts complex documents has nothing good to say about the "documentation" - AFAIK it's almost impossible - especially at any reasonable effort level.)

Plus, if I change the standard every five minutes and force it on users, it doesn't really matter if you have access to documentation - it's practical use is nil.

The whole point of this discussion, is that MS frequently breaks things, by using your "progess" theory. Many of us believe, and I think with good reason, that it isn't for progress, it's for profit.

Perhaps you've made lots of money developing for MS - frankly, most of my consulting is on Windows too, but don't be too surprised that when the alienated public gets the opportunity to throw MS's body from the window, they will. They'll gleefully cheer when they crumple lifeless and bloody far below. If you've put all your eggs in one basket, your fortunes won't be much better.

MS is only interested in themselves. They're only marginally interested in the best interests of their customers - IMHO. That behavior doesn't bode well for most businesses. I think the only reason they've survived this long is because of their skill in killing/compromising the competition.

But like Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin etc, you can only bloody the masses for so long. Soon, you're not on the winning side. Be sure that your deeds will be repaid with interest. (I believe that you'll also get to realize the results of those deeds - good or bad - in finality later - but that's another story.)

I give my clients all the information that they want. Sometimes, that means that I loose billable consulting time - because they do it themselves. But it's the "right" thing to do. If my clients want to get rid of me, I give them all the assistance I can, and bid them a cheerful (and also a sometimes sad) farewell.

In the long-run, it's to my benefit. It might not seem like it, but it is. Even if it wasn't, it is the correct moral position - the one that I would like, should I be in their position. As a business owner, my moral obligation for my company and personally, is to also look after the interests of my clients. Perhaps I don't have to, and many of you and those who claim it's business's god given right to milk the customer for profits think I'm nuts for doing so - but I'll continue to do the best I can for BOTH me and the client.

Perhaps you don't feel this obligation. It also seems that you view MS's behavior as perfectly reasonable - but to me, AND many of my clients, that's simply not the case.

We may continue to use MS's products, but only because we have few other reasonable choices - often because of MS's predetory actions. But when reasonable alternatives exist, we jump in.

There's a way to be both profitable and highly moral. IMHO, MS hasn't even tried. It'll cost them - both personally and business-wise.

Cheers!

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Malcontent]

" It wasn't arbitrary. It was a major shift between major versions. It was well publicized before hand, and I know, at the time, my IT department was ready for it"

Maybe I would buy this argument if we were talking about the difference between word 6 and 95 but between 95 and 97 it was basically a bug fix upgrade.

I don't know where you get this "major shift" shit from.

"What you probably mean is "SQL Server doesn't have the same defaults as Oracle"

What YOU really mean is that it does not have the same defaults as ony other database including sybase. All databases install with a case sensitive collation as default.

" Oh, yeah, and Netscape never put in their own HTML extensions."

There must a be memo floating around M$ which instructs their employees and astro turfers how to counter arguments because I see this one all the time. Apparently it gives two possible answers when somebody points out something slimy M$ does.

1) They do it too. Simply point out that there is at least one other sleazy company in the world.
2) They would do it if they had the chance.

In this case you have chosen to use answer number one. Do me a favor get a hold of whoever wrote that memo and tell them that it sounds like a whine of a two year old. "Gee mom everybody else does it!".

BTW Opera does not do it, mozilla does not do it, netscape does not do it anymore. Only MS is being sleazy and unethical these days in this regard.

"I rarely see AX on public internet sites"

Liar.

"And the windows forms may not be complete yet,"

Like I said no windows forms no ADO.NET which makes c# useless in anything but windows. Both windows windows forms and ado.net are patented. If the mono guys ever got it working they would get their assess sued off.

" First, it's a corporate entity, not a human entity."

Legally and morally it makes no difference.

" I take it you're of the mindset that believe once you commit a crime, you can never truly repent and make up for"

First of all MS shows no sign of repentence. Bill and Steve and the rest are still liars and still sleazy. Second of all yes those things stay with you. You mean to tell me that you would completely ignore the past acts of a murderer? Of course not.

" You don't really want to compare MS v Communism and OSS v Communism do you?"

Of course I do. Especially when it comes to Russian style of communism. There is no difference between centrally controlled economies and MS. MS is exactly like the former soviet republic and OSS is exactly like capitalistic societies that are decentralized and freedom loving. Democracy = OSS, COmmunism=M$.

"And I'm not saying predatory tactics weren't employed and shouldn't be reprimanded, but again, i don't think the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater"

Lots of people lost jobs because of those practices, many business were ruined, millions of consumers overpaid. Sorry that's the reality.

"It's corporate Darwinism"

I suppose some people have a stronger sense of morals and right and wrong. Apparently just about any act is OK as long as it's done in the name of profit. That is not the case with me. I believe that if the choice is between making more money or acting ethically you should choose act in a moral way. Apparently nobody at MS feels that way.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[ultrabot]

I've programed in non-ms environments. They money tends to be much better in MS environments. Why should I starve just to 'avoid' Microsoft?

I believe it's just the other way around, as MS developers are, on the average, less skilled. "Lesser programmers", in a sense. So it's also part image, not just ethics/technology.

Nothing in this world is so perfectly exact as "right" and "wrong", "good" and "evil".

Nothing in this world is. Period. Meditate on that ;-). Technologywise, there is the right thing, and it's not MS's complicated api and market-driven backwards compatibility all the way back to dos.

I enjoy using their tool-sets

Ok, I can appreciate that. Your mindset is apparently similar to that of MS's target audience, so it seems to "work" for you. Somebody might use the phrase "fool's paradise" here, but I won't.

Every time you mention "M$" or make some derogatory vague accusation toward them, you're donating 'precious mind-share to Microsoft'.

No, I'm not. By "precious mindshare" I'm referring to learning their tools, languages, etc.

Re:Will everybody do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think that only in Latin America there are mode police guys out at streets. Here in Central Europe it's the same, just they (police guys) pretends they are checking-yout car technical status etc.

Any where they arent?

[Quicksilver31337]

Where isnt MS?

Re:Any where they arent?

[the way, what're you]

They be where them are. There is no places where they isnt at.

Ahh, I see.

[sllort]

Peru: We've decided to use Free Software.
Microsoft: Ok, here's some free Software.

Re:Ahh, I see.

[necio_online]

Free as In freedom, not as in free beer.
This is not a gift. It's a wolf wrapped as a gift.

This is not what Peru needs... If they want to be kind, they should give them computers... without their stinking OS.

Re:Ahh, I see.

[Anonymous Coward]

>> Peru: We've decided to use Free Software.
>> Microsoft: Ok, here's some free Software

> This is not what Peru needs... If they want to be kind, they should give them computers... without their stinking OS.

Notice the difference in "Free" and "free"
I think that was the original posters point

Re:Ahh, I see.

[Anonymous Coward]

[Voice of Foghorn Leghorn here..] "It's a joke, Son..."

Re:Ahh, I see.

[Citizen of Earth]

Peru: We've decided to use Free Software.
Microsoft: Ok, here's some free Software.

More like:

Peru: We've decided to use Free Software.
Microsoft: Here's a few more decimal places for your personal bank account, Mr. President.

Re:Ahh, I see.

[sharkey]

"What a big Start Button you have, Grandma!"

Re:Ahh, I see.

[ReelOddeeo]

Peru: We've decided to check into a drug rehab center.
MS: Here, have some more drugs -- for free.

Re:Ahh, I see.

[mpe]

This is not what Peru needs... If they want to be kind, they should give them computers... without their stinking OS.

Of course it isn't. Microsoft is interested in helping Microsoft only...

Take it and run

[CrazyDwarf]

I say Peru go along with only using Open Source software, but keep Bill's gifts anyway. I don't see anything in the article about them being obligated in any way to use the stuff for a particular purpose, and I'd like to see him go into Peruvian court and try to sue to get it back.

Re:Take it and run

[Anonymous Coward]

I say Peru go along with only using Open Source software, but keep Bill's gifts anyway. I don't see anything in the article about them being obligated in any way to use the stuff for a particular purpose, and I'd like to see him go into Peruvian court and try to sue to get it back.

So the way to respond to an unethical company is behave in like?

Re:Take it and run

[gosand]

I say Peru go along with only using Open Source software, but keep Bill's gifts anyway.

RTFA.

"Peru's President Alejandro Toledo was at Microsoft Corp. headquarters on Monday, where he signed a deal to put the Internet into the Andean nation's schools and modernize its government."

The key phrase here is "signed a deal". Not that I wouldn't love to see them sell off all the software on eBay to fund their Open Source initiative.

Re:Take it and run

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no. Bill Gates is very committed to Peru. In Arequipa, the Bill Gates Institute of Technology is right across the street from the Albert Einstein Technical School.

Re:Take it and run

[ultrabot]

where he signed a deal to put the Internet into the Andean nation's schools and modernize its government."

So Peruvians let those poor microsoft drones put all that wideband wire and other hardware there. Then install Linux on the boxen. Sweet. It would seem like a good topic for a comedy.

Funny

[baldass_newbie]

Funny how money changes minds.
Regardless, I said I was switching to Linux and never got a dime.
Guess I should have sent a letter...

XP in the living room? Oh, great.

[phillymjs]

If you change the channel too many times in an hour, do you have to call Microsoft to have your set-top box re-activated?

~Philly

Re:XP in the living room? Oh, great.

[Ilgaz]

Or you won't have some TV channels speaking against microsoft?

What kind of a digital nazi world we came to?

Re:XP in the living room? Oh, great.

[Subcarrier]

There's a blue screen on every channel. So why change?

Re:XP in the living room? Oh, great.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not offtopic you FUCKING IDIOT MODERATORS who can't even READ THE FUCKING HEADLINE!!!

Goddamn.

Re:XP in the living room? Oh, great.

[SN74S181]

The GPL'd alternative, of course, is that you have to release the source code if you want to release a version where the customer is allowed to change the channel (by changing a DEF in a header file and recompiling).

Re:XP in the living room? Oh, great.

[Trevelyan]

It'll be open source, and that would be way too annoying, in like 30mins there'll be a patch so you dont need to recompile, just edit some config file in /etc (or ~/) and then '/etc/init.d/tv reload'

Ofcourse that'll be too hard for some again and mdk will give make a nice gui, which the lots may like.
but some will be cursing it cause it ruined the nice 'n' tidy formating in said config, and beg their CLI forgivness for ever try a GUI config app

=)

if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[NotAnotherReboot]

If we subtract the 'free' software total from that sum, how much is Microsoft actually contributing? $5?

This seems eerily similar to that settlement involving 'free' software to public schools.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[bstadil]

If we subtract the 'free' software total from that sum, how much is Microsoft actually contributing? $5?

This is not quite true. As a minimum they are "contributing" the income they would otherwise have had. Over time your are right they will gain by doing what they are doing so "cost" is close to zero (that the reason for doing it) but in the short term like next two years this will lower their profit by the above said amount.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[rnturn]

``This seems eerily similar to that settlement involving 'free' software to public schools.''

Yep. It's free until the BSA comes knocking in a year or so.

These donations seem a bit too much like those sales pitches for DSL that tell you ``only $19.95 a month' And then, very quitely, ``after the first two months regular prices apply. Other restrictions apply.'' Accepting a donation from Microsoft is, I think, a good indication that you're either: a) soft in the head, b) a natural born sucker, or c) both a) and b).

As you should when offered drugs: Just Say No.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[reverius]

No, that profit wouldn't have existed, because Peru would've been using Free software. Not Microsoft software.

This is a clear-cut case where you can't count that software as potential income for Microsoft, because Peru simply would not have bought it.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[Juln]

The income they would have had if Peru had used Free Software: $0

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[bstadil]

because Peru simply would not have bought it.

That is why I stated it like "would otherwise have bought". I am not making a comment on the merit of this nor on what they would or wouldn't buy. I was just trying to make the point that even thought something is free in the sense it has miniscule production cost it does not mean that giving it away does not cost you anything.

Your point is well taken that if they would not have bought anything the cost to MS is indeed close to zero.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[Jason Earl]

Don't get me wrong, this particular deal is nothing short of a bribe. However, Peru is not your typical company. The BSA might seem scary to an American company, but Peru has their own military and their own laws. Peru has, in the past, expropriated entire industries stealing billions from foreign investors.

Peru is not scared of Microsoft, Peruvian officials are simply susceptible to bribes.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[PhranQ]

Most of this is true, but there IS a BSA representatives along with "INDECOPI" (an intellectual property defense office) that raids over private and public institutions as well.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[Jason Earl]

Most of this is true, but there IS a BSA representatives along with "INDECOPI" (an intellectual property defense office) that raids over private and public institutions as well.

The Peruvian government has lots of reasons to keep normal citizens and businesses in line. After all most of the politicos have business interests. INDECOPI probably comes in handy by making sure that businesses that the politicos don't like have to pay for their software. There is little chance that Peru is going to turn INDECOPI loose on other branches of the government, and there is less chance that the Peruvian government is going to pay any attention to the BSA.

Peru probably will pay attention to the WTO, however. First world nations (and especially the U.S.) have been pushing anti-piracy heavily lately. Trade sanctions would certainly have an effect on Peru.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[PhranQ]

I'm afraid that's not accurate. The UNI (National Engineering University) faced a HUGE fine for using illegal copies of Microcrap.

The logical reaction of the UNI was to adopt Open Source and _start_ training their students on its use...

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[chris_mahan]

Actually, the profit is not what is at stake. Microsoft doesn't want to lose money in OTHER countries after they follow in Peru's path.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[Jason Earl]

Now that is good news. In the long run Free Software is good for developing nations as it allows them to play on the software field as equals and not as subject nations. The fact of the matter is that Peruvians are just as smart as anyone, and twice as motivated as any American I have ever met. There is no doubt in my mind that they will make huge contributions to the software economy once they start working for themselves and not for the primarily North American software consortiums.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[AmericanInKiev]

Do you think MS get a tax right-off for donating XP to Peru?

If so - why couldn't Lixus authors donate software and get a write-off?

I think a lot of Programmers would contribute to Linux if it meant they got a bulk of their taxes back.

AIK

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[fferreres]

Or that the ones making the decisions are corrupt. How's this news? The news is Microsoft exposing their cheap strategy to keep the monopoly lubricated.

Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total...

[ynohoo]

Just Say No

Didn't yo momma teach you any manners? Say "No, thank you".

may backfire on Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone noticing a trend? X flirts with the prospect of using open source software, Microsoft gives $$$ to buy back Microsofts position. How many other markets is Microsoft going to go from making huge profits to making losses?

Bloody Microsoft...

[netsharc]

Fucking Gates, he's resorted to bribing people to get them to use his software. Sucks! I wonder what Mr. Villaneuva's going to say about it. Coup d'etat? That would be interesting, a real revolution brought about by Open Source. :o

Re:Bloody Microsoft...

[mtrupe]

MS is damned if they do, damned if they don't... Most people around here will gripe about the company regardless of what they do.

conflict of interest?

[Anonymous Coward]

Marcone Flores downplayed whether the contributions could conflict with a proposal under debate in the Peruvian government.

man, that's a good one!

Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[CrazyDuke]

...donating to *cough*bribing*cough* the governments of entire countries that consider using something other than Microsoft's products doesn't seem to be anti-competative. No siree.

Then again this is the company that basically pulled out their member infront of the US judicial system and said, "Suck on dis! Who's yer Daddie!?!"

P.S. to the trigger happy mods, I am not trying to troll. I am just expressing my frustration with the situation.

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[Anonymous Coward]

Then every company who ever offered a promotional deal must "seem to be anti-competative[sic]".

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[TibbonZero]

Exactly. Why in the world is anyone allowing the them to give a half million trying bribe them into using MSFT software?
This has gotta be one of the worst things that MSFT has ever done. It's straight bribes.
The Open Source software will cost them less still, because you know that somewhere in this MSFT wants to get a return on their 'investment'.

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[Anonymous Coward]

Open source software is only free if your time is worthless.

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and MS software is only worth something if you like watching the boot up sequence.

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[Anonymous Coward]

Proprietary software is only worthwhile if your freedom is worthless.

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy LNUX, and LNUX shall set you free!

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[Anonymous Coward]

P.S. to the trigger happy mods, I am not trying to troll.

Do, or do not. There is no try.

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[CrazyDuke]

Regardless of what I mean to say, it is you (the readers, some of which have mod points) who interpret what I say. I am just trying to clear things up a bit so I don't end up with a slew of -1's.

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[Anonymous Coward]

Open source software is only free if your time is worthless.

Who said anything about worthless? The quote you're replying to says this:

Open Source software will cost them less

Less != zero

You'll have to work on your trolling if you want people to take you seriously.

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[shades66]

is that freedom from M$ controlling your machine or freedom from Hackers/Scriptkiddies controlling your machine through numerous security problems??

hehehehe

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[shades66]

why? Do MSCE's work for free when you buy windows?

At the end of the day this is all about saving on software costs. Which ever way you go you still need to pay staff to maintain it!. By going the propriatary way you will end up spending huge amounts in licence fee's everytime M$ decides it needs more money and releases a new version of their OS/Office suite etc..

With budgets getting tighter every year companies are looking for every possible way of saving a few $. If opensource can provide this saving then more and more companies will switch..

I personally think ALL goverments should consider using opensource software to save money which could be spent better elsewhere like Health,Education,Transport etc...

Re:Gee...thats not anti-competitive...

[Anonymous Coward]

What a great turn of a phrase. Someone should mod this guy up! You can have all my AC points.

Selling on Ebay!

[TibbonZero]

Actually, I don't know if you can sell MSFT software on Ebay without 'including' some type of hardware. I think it was that way for a while anyway.. :)

Re:Selling on Ebay!

[homer_ca]

You can sell retail boxed software on Ebay. Preferably unopened and sealed. Only OEM software has to be sold with hardware.

Re:Selling on Ebay!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is true.

Re:Selling on Ebay!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ebay? Go download WinXP Pro from alb.binaries.erotica.vcd.

We always knew it was obscene.

You won't be able to sell it

[yerricde]

then they'll send me a bunch of free software

The only "free software" that Microsoft distributes is the GPL'd components of Interix, MS's competitor to Red Hat's Cygwin. I'll assume that by "free software" you mean "royalty-free licenses for Microsoft software".

which I can then resell on Ebay.

I don't think so. Microsoft would be more likely to give you a free, non-transferable license to use the software. Given the outcome the last time Microsoft products were offered on eBay, Microsoft Licensing isn't as naive as some Slashdot readers would think.

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Maybe we should use some new jargon for /. discussions...

"free" == free (beer and speech)
"freeb" == free (beer)
"freesp" == free (speech).

So the OP would be getting some freeb MS software. Of course, after 1 year, when the license runs out it's no longer freeb, and the BSA comes a-knocking.

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe we should use some new jargon for /. discussions...

or maybe everyone could stop being so uptight about the meaning of free, and just read it in context.

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[aardvarkjoe]

No, by free he meant Costing nothing; gratuitous. (As I'm sure you were well aware.) Honestly, this habit of claiming that "free" always means Stallman's definition rather than the definition than almost everyone else automatically thinks of is rather ridiculous.

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, put simply, "free as in beer".

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[SN74S181]

Interix isn't a competitor to Cygwin. Interix is an entire POSIX subsystem that runs directly on top of the NT Kernal layer. Cygqin is a hacky Win32 DLL that runs beholden to the Win32 subsystem. That means it translates through an entire extra layer. Also, Interix is a certified POSIX environment. Interix is... well... a hacky Win32 DLL.

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[SN74S181]

Major typo there. Last sentence should read: "Cygwin is... well.. a hacky Win32 DLL."

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that beer isn't free.

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[Danse]

Different people take "free" to mean different things. Context does not always make it clear, which is why we always see things like "free (as in speech)" used in posts and stories to clarify.

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[Random Bystander]

I thought the whole point of Newspeak and doublethink was so we wouldn't have so many words, and everything would make more sense.

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[Anonymous Coward]

No, by free he meant Costing nothing; gratuitous [link to definition].

Which he pointed out by clarifying "royalty-free licenses." I've noticed that yerricde and some other users will tend to open a comment by stating things in more precise terms; for me at least, this makes the analysis easier to follow.

this habit of claiming that "free" always means Stallman's definition

Does "free people" refer to slaves that are given in exchange for no money?

-- Pinocchio

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[Sunnan]

The list is all about combating newspeak and doublethink. Confusing libre (freesp) with gratis (freeb) is just what Microsoft want you to do, so they can call Explorer "free" software. Didn't you see http://www.icq.com? They claim to offer free software.

Re:You won't be able to sell it

[wheany]

Is there something wrong with using "free of charge" instead of "free (as in beer)" I'm sure there is some way of saying "free (as in speech)" in a way that doesn't sound stupid (as in free (as in beer))

$550,000 in MS consulting services huh?

[Jonny Ringo]

That ought to tide Peru over for a couple of days.

Re:$550,000 in MS consulting services huh?

[markbthomas]

Well, the Bill Gates Net Worth Page says Bill is worth 33,141,420,513 USD.

So out of his own pocket, this money is 0.00166 per cent of his net worth.

Yes, that's less than two thousandths of a per cent.

Taking a look at my bank account and (non-existant) stock portfolio, that is equivalent to me donating 10 cents to Perú. Tell the president my check's in the mail.

Philanthropy? Yeah, right.

Looking at future profit

[fishlet]

That money is just a drop in the bucket to Microsoft. They probably figure if they can keep the gov of peru hooked a little while longer peru will turn around and buy stuff in the future. That and it's just Microsoft's uber-competitive nature to make people use windows... even if they have to pay people to do it. It would make me laugh if they go out of business because of having to pay everyone to use windows. Their so driven to have their way... they'll push it even if it kills em. *I hope so*

Call to code...

[Whispers_in_the_dark]

(Pertaining to the MS living room part of the topic)

It sounds to me like someone (Mandrake maybe?) needs to come out with a Linux distro that mates well with the Wal-Boxen that are coming out now so that a plug-and-play competitor is available. I'd sure buy one (especially if it could also be DirecTV compatible somehow). I know TiVo's out there and has fine Linux support but an open-source variation that doesn't require a monthly fee would be something I'd be interested in.

Its Basic Economics...

[FortKnox]

Let me tell you all the horrors of a capitalistic economy.

I own a lemonade stand that sells $5 lemonade. I have about 50 customers every 2 hours, giving me a nice customer base.
You see how I'm gouging people, so you open a lemonade stand for $1, and attempt to show people how to make lemonade at home for under $1.

I'll see what you are doing, and sell my lemonade for $0.50, which is less than it takes for you to make lemonade. For you to compete is for you to lose money. I can afford it, because I have capital sitting in a bank account. You go out of business, and I raise my price back to $5.

This is what MS is doing!

Its basic economics, people.
Now, don't give me the "linux is free" angle. Use the anology, but instead of money, use familiarity with the product, and the popularity with MS products vs open source ones.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[Dr_LHA]

I'll see what you are doing, and sell my lemonade for $0.50, which is less than it takes for you to make lemonade. For you to compete is for you to lose money. I can afford it, because I have capital sitting in a bank account. You go out of business, and I raise my price back to $5.

This is what MS is doing!

And this is why they will utimately fail against Linux. Because no matter what they do, because Linux is not owned by a particular company, because it's free and GPL'd, it will always be there as a competitor. This is what scares MS the most - they can't buy out Linux or bankrupt it.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[FortKnox]

And this is why they will utimately fail against Linux. Because no matter what they do, because Linux is not owned by a particular company, because it's free and GPL'd, it will always be there as a competitor. This is what scares MS the most - they can't buy out Linux or bankrupt it

I agree with most of what you say. There's no doubt that MS is aiming all guns at Linux (and is prolly scared). There's no doubt that Linux will always survive. MS's strategy is to keep linux low-key and claim standards and popularity.

This article is a perfect example. Get all kids to know MS, so they will be comfortable with Windows, and uncomfortable with Linux.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[markbthomas]

Precisely. You may force a Free Lemonade Distributor out of business, but since this guy was giving away his recipe, another guy can come along and start selling lemonade at $1 again.

Microsoft realise this (which is why their prices aren't going down), but they're running around like headless chickens trying to work out how to kill linux.

Well, here's one customer that Microsoft will never have ;-)

Lets hope that their X-Box sales losses and politician bribery will seriously deplete their billions of reserve cash.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[regen]

What you just discribed is called dumping and is illegal under most international trade agreements and local laws. Looks like there might be another Microsoft court case if they aren't careful.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[charon.de]

"This is what scares MS the most - they can't buy out Linux or bankrupt it"

Additionaly I heard rumored the following lately:

Q: Is it necessary to change to linux environment?

Yes, I'm afraid so. Congress will soon outlaw use of microsoft products as contrary to health and the state. You'd better choose the side of the free while you still have a choice.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[buzzdecafe]

This misses the point of Villanuva's bill, which was not about getting the "best deal," but promoting democracy through openess and transparency in the business of government.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[Anonymous Coward]

> And this is why they will utimately fail against Linux. Because no matter what they do, because Linux is not owned by a particular company, because it's free and GPL'd, it will always be there as a competitor. This is what scares MS the most - they can't buy out Linux or bankrupt it.

True, but they can make it politically/economically infeasable to use it.

Consider that if Peru's gov't accepts this ...gift..., they will have gotten all this stuff for no up-front costs - nothing they have to justify to voters. Stuff that most likely, voters already are familiar with from use of past products. Now, having all this more-or-less familiar stuff for "free", they're supposed to turn around and start a conversion effort, with a non-zero cost, and have to explain this to Peruvian voters? No, I think that the politicians there, like almost anywhere, would rather take the safe route.

It's NOT a simple equation, Linux cost vs MS cost. There are squishy human factors in there, too, and MS well knows how to work those to its best support. MS may well be scared of Linux, but that doesn't mean they're totally helpless in its face.

They know what to do, and they're doing it.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[BrookHarty]

And this is why they will ultimately fail against Linux....

How about.

School wants to save money and Install Linux.
Microsoft donates computers/software (for free) and onsite configuration. School saves money.
Year later, contract is up, Microsoft wants to charge for new licenses. They want upgrades fees for new OS for every computer. They also want upgrade fees on m$ office updates, server software, database, etc...

Now repeat that on a whole school district, where everything is now M$ based, and the costs to change everything away from M$ would be too great of a cost.

Americans have a problem looking 1+ years in the future, they dont see the BRICK WALL. We seem to be a "Show me NOW" culture. We need to have our state and federal governments use open source software NOW. (There's the culture buzz word)

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it ironic that a guy named FortKnox is deriding capitalism.

But, hell, what do I know? I'm a kid that needs to get out more.

I concur.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[Jason Earl]

The problem with this is that Linux not only has a lower price, but it costs far less to fund Linux development than Windows development. That's why Ballmer is going around giving interviews in which he admits that Microsoft is no longer the discount solution. Even with $40 billion in the bank Microsoft can't buy off enough customers to force Free Software vendors out of business (especially when you start talking about IBM and their Linux push). Well, they probably could do it, but not without spooking investors on Wall Street. Since Microsoft management is heavily invested in Microsoft, you can bet that they won't do anything to upset the short term stock price, even if it would be good for Microsoft in the long run.

Microsoft's edge is that they aren't selling a commodity like lemonade. Ripping out Microsoft requires that you learn how to use some other system, which can be very expensive. However, this sort of momentum only carries you so far.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[Citizen of Earth]

I'll see what you are doing, and sell my lemonade for $0.50, which is less than it takes for you to make lemonade. For you to compete is for you to lose money. I can afford it, because I have capital sitting in a bank account. You go out of business, and I raise my price back to $5.

There is one slight problem with this analogy. "Capital-F" Free Software is immortal. It cannot die. There is no business to kill off, there is no way to make the software go away, and there is no way to undercut them (except to actually *pay* your customers to use your software, which is what Microsoft is doing here).

Logically speaking, you will eventually drain away your capital while trying to best "small-F" free software and go bankrupt yourself.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny that you should refer to lemons when talking about MS products.

Re:Its Basic Economics...

[fferreres]

Very true and very sad. It works that way, specially in industries like software (the more you sell, the lower the average cost of production. At infinity, average cost is near total zero).

Marx has been saying this for about a century now (well, more than a century): big fishes will eat the small fishes, and grew bigger (loop).

The only way arround is legislation. And our problem comes when legislation can be bought. Can I be bought? If you think not, we are safe. Else, be ready for massive monopoly rape (as in "want cancer cure? how much do you've got???". Think creatively, if monopolies rule, you don't have options)!

Oh no!

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is donating something to somebody! Must be an evil conspiracy! Quick, let's make up some theories about how this will oppress people for years to come somewhere.

Re:Oh no!

[Rob Y.]

Okay, I'll bite.

Donating software and taking a big tax break probably has a negative cost to Microsoft. At the same time, they can prevent adoption of rival software, and if they keep it up long enough (they hope) kill said rival.

Then, finally, they have a new 'market' that has 'chosen' to pay for Microsoft software in the future.

May (here's hoping) not work out that way, but that's definitely the play.

Re:Oh no!

[Anonymous Coward]

well, if they hadn't done this short of a week after Villanueva's presentation to the peruvian legislature I might agree. I guess this just goes to show that you are a jackass and that MS is every bit as scared of us as we think they are.

Re:Oh no!

[Anonymous Coward]

That comment was insightful??

Hey, that crack dealer's "donating" some crack cocaine to somebody! Must be an evil conspiracy! Quick, let's make up some theories about how this will oppress people for years to come somewhere.

If you can't see the parallels, maybe you should put down your crack pipe!

Windows XP Media Center cost....

[BMonger]

According to the other tidbit of information the Windows XP Media Center is going to cost around $1000 - $2000. What can it possibly offer that you couldn't get with a normal PC? I just put an awesome (in my opinion) computer for somebody for around $1,500 with DVD burner and flat screen monitor. Take out the monitor and it comes to a little under $1,000. Just plug it into the TV instead... it just sounds like the media center is going to be a console type thing almost to me... I'm just not seeing the pricing benefits of this machine although I don't see any specs either...

But really... would need much more than maybe a low GHZ P4, with like... 512 MB of ram, a sound card, a decent video card, and a few other minor things to have a media center? Can anybody find anything else about this? Otherwise you might as well just buy a dreamcast... it can play Video CD's, MP3's, check your e-mail, etc... the only thing it can't do is burn CD's and play DVD's...

Re:Windows XP Media Center cost....

[Anonymous Coward]

just wait until you find out that the consumer version of "Longhorn" will only run on one of these.

Re:Windows XP Media Center cost....

[PopeAlien]

I hope that price is correct - the real danger is that MS makes the media center dirt cheap - you can't afford NOT to have one. They replace everyones VCR / Etc with a system that doesn't work unless it has tons of 'copy protection' in place. MS could very quickly become the gatekeeper between the user and home entertainment.

When was the last time 'copy protection' actually stopped 'copying' (i.e. large scale bootleg CD factories) instead of presenting an inconvenience to the end user (i.e. your new 'protected' cd wont play in your mac).

Re:Windows XP Media Center cost....

[rnturn]

``I hope that price is correct - the real danger is that MS makes the media center dirt cheap - you can't afford NOT to have one.''

I hope he's right about that cost too. Combine that with the recent story about the TV networks wanting to place ads on the bottom part of the screen during the broadcasts and you'll have people turning off their TVs in HUGE numbers. Who'll need a Microsoft Media Center then?

Besides, if I had $1000-$2000 to spend on entertainment hardware, a set top box wouldn't even be on my list. Hell, I'm down to about 4-5 hours per week of TV anyway. (Now rented movies are another thing altogether :-) ) What benefit would anyone's set top box provide to me?

Re:Windows XP Media Center cost....

[freeweed]

But really... would need much more than maybe a low GHZ P4, with like... 512 MB of ram, a sound card, a decent video card, and a few other minor things to have a media center?

I've been running a media center off my celeron 433, 128 ram, SBlive, and a low end agp card w/tv-out for years now. Total cost these days: maybe $100. It handles every type of media format I can throw at it just fine. Toss in a $200 160GB harddrive and I'd have more storage than I know what to do with.

Why can't someone come up with something like this for the mass consumer market? Oh yeah.. XP runs like absolute crap unless you're in the Ghz range.

Re:Windows XP Media Center cost....

[Steve525]

The problem with a roll your own PVR is a lack of software. Plus, it's the scheduling service that really makes it valuable. There are products that supposedly provide this (Hauppauge, ATI - does anyone have any experience with WinPVR2?), but from what I've read, all current PVR solutions don't hold a candle to what a TiVo can do. Perhaps someone, someday will come out with a great PVR package that ties into a schedule service. For the moment they all fall far short of the premade set-top systems. In addition, home made systems aren't stable enough. (driver issues)?

A home made system offers a lot of advantages in flexibility (burning movies), plus it can do a lot more than just be a PVR. I'd certainly like to have one, but the issues I've mentioned above have kept me from spending my time and money on it. Microsoft certainly has the resources to come out with a product that deals with those issues if they choose. However, I'm afraid Microsoft might tie in too much DRM for my tastes. I'm also concerned with why they are only selling it with new systems. Perhaps they want control over the hardware to avoid stability/compatibility issues, or perhaps they need the control for DRM?

Re:Windows XP Media Center cost....

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah.. XP runs like absolute crap unless you're in the Ghz range.

Don't worry. KDE and Gnome are working on keeping up with it.

Re:Windows XP Media Center cost....

[Technician]

or perhaps they need the control for DRM?
I think you have a clue. They will control the player, the advertising, the delivery, and they can provide a demographic profile to advertisers. They are your new cable services media company.
Your non Dish Network hardware (receiver/decoder) doesn't work with the subscription Dish Network service. The hardware does very little without an active subscription. Each decoder/receiver has a unique ID that is used to prevent theft of service. The Dish Network receiver can't be used to use another providers programming. Peer to peer of programming provided by the service is prevented. There are no anon users getting a free ride (except for illicit piracy). No subscription, no programming! Do you expect anything less from MS?

Re:Windows XP Media Center cost....

[hvatum]

That would be a dream come true. If microsoft made a proprietary PC format they would loose untold support because the reasons to upgrade would not be compeling enough. Most people would prefer to instead use windows 2000 or XP. Then windows longhorn would go the way of best buy's DIVX.

Good posting on Advogato

[tomasdore]

There's a good story on Advogato about just this thing, provides more info about the current state of play.
(Unfortunately the 3rd, and most informative, comment is by a guy miffed that /. didn't accept his story!)

This is going to turn into a racket.

[Spazntwich]

Remember when everyone first discovered that if you call to cancel AOL, they give you several months free just so you don't leave? I can see a lot of governments learning from Peru's example: "Hey, if we express interest in going Open Source, Microsoft will give us tons of shit for free we'd otherwise have to pay millions of dollars for!"

This would be entertaining at least.

Re:This is going to turn into a racket.

[binkley]

Quite.

Microsoft's "donation" is really a bribe; alternatively, Peru is extorting the money from them.

Re:This is going to turn into a racket.

[Danse]

I think some Peruvian government officials have been bought by Microsoft (of course that's normal for Peru). I think that they know that the deal is bad for the country in the long run, for all the reasons that Villanueva pointed out in his letter to MS. I think that they are doing it anyway because Microsoft is fattening their own wallets. That's just how things are done in Peru. It's not much different in the US, except that they have to be a bit more discreet about it.

Re:This is going to turn into a racket.

[Kyusaku Natsume]

"I think some Peruvian government officials have been bought by Microsoft (of course that's normal for Peru)"

I think some USian government officials have been bought by Microsoft (of course that's normal for USA)

The things are really, really bad when we take stuff like this as "normal". When a republic fails, what comes next is tiranny.

Re:Postin' Perl from Peru QWZX

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Trollmastah... welcome back!

Looking forward to seeing some good trollin' around here.

Dope dealers do the same...

[eyepeepackets]

...give the customer a few free samples, get 'em hooked into the product and then that customer REALLY starts to pay.

If the Peruvians fall for this, they deserve what happens to them: Forever paying premium dollars for really lousy products from a compamy with an exceptionally bad attitude.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

More background info on Advogato and on 24horas

[Carl]

See also the following article on advogato: The positive things happening in Peru

One of the comments links to a article with a picture of the president and Bill Gates: PRESIDENTE TOLEDO SUSCRIBE CONVENIO CON BILL GATES

Re:More background info on Advogato and on 24horas

[Anonymous Coward]

That's one scary photo!

If you cant sell it, give it away. Monopoly learns

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd tell them to shove it. It's an obvious ploy to get the govt (Peru) locked back into MS. They know if you have 3-5 years development on a platform the cost of changing becomes significantly higher.

Peruvian estate portal is written in ASP!

[Anonymous Coward]

What the heck? Most peruvian programmers doesn't know anything out of MS technologies. Why? Because they have never paid for them. They use all of Gates' inventions without showing him any gratitude. It looks like Toledo has said "thank you Billy" on behalf of them. Now they won't EVER leave Redmond's dependance. Shame on them!

media center?

[Triv]

Does 'media center' sound like apple's 'digital hub' to anyone else? heh. When you can't innovate, rebrand and copy.

Triv

Oh, the pain! A little discourse analysis

[Interrobang]

Did you folks see that screenshot of the "simple interface"? That thing looks more like the menus on my parents' satellite TV service than a computer interface. Note the preinstalled categories ("My TV," "My Music," etc.), as if "My Documents" and "My Computer" weren't bad enough.

Also, did anybody else catch the marketroid jargon in the puffy-poo press release at microsoft.com? Wow, how many times can they use the word "freedom" in six column inches anyway? This from the same company who's pushing Palladium.

And what was that about a computer going from being "a tool for productivity" (ok, if you say so) to being "a device capable of entertainment, communications and so much more." I don't like either term in that zero-sum equation. (Can't we just define computers as tools or something and leave "productivity" [whatever that's supposed to mean, really] out of it?) It's a little agendist for my taste, and all of that agenda is (natch) Microsoft. (Pardon me for stating the obvious.)

I hate to lapse into darkly paranoid hypotheses here, but is this yet another multitentacled strategy to turn the Internet into TV with fewer moving parts? I don't think I like either term in that zero-sum equation, either...especially since I happen to like being able to create my own content (and look at whatever I want whenever I want), and I mostly quit doing TV years ago.

Re:Oh, the pain! A little discourse analysis

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, how many times can they use the word "freedom?

Yeah, who do they think they are - Bush?

Re:Oh, the pain! A little discourse analysis

[shadowbearer]

I hate to lapse into darkly paranoid hypotheses here, but is this yet another multitentacled strategy to turn the Internet into TV with fewer moving parts?

Yup.
Remember WebTv?

(Can't we just define computers as tools or something and leave "productivity" [whatever that's supposed to mean, really] out of it?)

That's one of those arguments I've expounded elsewhere (not here). Some time ago I found the comparison to a Milwaukee hammer drill useful. (I buy that tool, it's mine for life, I can take it apart, fix it, modify it, I just can't put my own trade name on it and sell it.) Software manufacturers like MS have a horrible stranglehold on their market.

Of course software is a tool. Operating Systems, ditto. So what seperates the two? Marketing "strategy". And a lot of dumb buyers. A good quality hammerdrill takes just as much effort to design as software does. Don't think coders are "special". It's fallacy. Hell, a well-designed garden rake doesn't take a degree either, and you don't see people "licensing" them. The only extra (?) charge with software should be upgrades and support. Particularly support.

(end rant, ok, mod me to hell, and it's time to crack another beer ;)

Shadowbearer

My Pictures, My Video, My My....

[reynolds_john]

This whole "My foo" is making me sick.

Why can't M$ just label things without the ridiculous personal identifier? Perhaps instead we could have the "Bob Dole" effect:
Bob Dole's Pictures
Bob Dole's Videos
Bob Dole's Music
Bob Dole's Documents
Bob Dole's Erectile Disfunction
[sic]

Re:My Pictures, My Video, My My....

[markbthomas]

John Malkovitch's Pictures
John Malkovitch's Videos
John Malkovitch's Music
John Malkovitch's Documents ...

wireless monitor, my eye

[fiftyLou]

... a wireless monitor that can be detached and used away from the desk to access the computer.

I really wish people would stop calling it that -it's a freakin' tablet!

freelinuxcd.org

[GigsVT]

Someone needs to start up a Peru chapter of FreeLinuxCd.org.

They already have chapters in Venezuela, Canada, Malaysia, England, and India.

Any volunteers?

Re:freelinuxcd.org

[Anonymous Coward]

why don't you do it yourself, sheesh. people are so quick to ask others. you stand on the shoulders of people who do.

This tactic is not new...

[malakai]

It's no different then scheduling the MS Sales Reps to come in for their 1hr long presentation, 45mins after you schedule the Oracle guys to come in for their presentation.

The two end up meeting in the hall, and notice each-other. Within literally hours you get phone calls and email saying to the extent "We really want your business, and well beat anything they offered".

Linux has to be prepared for this. Don't expect companies to back down from Linux competition simply because Linux is free. And don't expect companies not to use Linux as a expendable pawn in negotiations for better rates from existing vendors.

This is after all, how the free market works.

-malakai

Re:This tactic is not new...

[Citizen of Earth]

"We really want your business, and well beat anything they offered".

First, get that in writing. Second, take it to the logical conclusion and have one of them pay you an infinite amount of cash.

Re:This tactic is not new...

[fdisk3hs]

A robust response, I salute you!

Seriously, Dirk Gently quotes aside, that is one of the more intelligent and well thought-out posts I've seen on Slashdot for quite a while. Why is that?

Oh well, at least Peru gets free stuff. I hope it works out better for them than my Gates Foundation 'we'll give you a server with 5 CALS, can we put you down for 120 on this order form?' experience. BTW, I had to get a MS Passport account TO BUY THE LICENSES (I can't get over the humiliation)...

Emasculatedly yours,
Lincoln (fdisk3hs)

Re:This tactic is not new...

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, I had to get a MS Passport account TO BUY THE LICENSES

That's utterly HORRIBLE!

Not only are they foisting their crap onto you, but they're forcing you to seriously risk your privacy too? My heart bleeds for you.

Why didn't you say "I don't want a passport, why don't you use YOUR passport to buy licenses for me, Mr Salesman?"

Freedom

[Subcarrier]

Regardless, I said I was switching to Linux and never got a dime.

And I said unto Linus: "Grant me a boon or never again shall I touch Linux! I will rather take my fortunes with the Prince of Evil!"

And thus spake Linus: "Thou hast the option to do so, for I have given thee freedom."

And, overcome by happiness, I sank unto my knees and cried: "Never again shall I doubt thee, for I am indeed free!"

Re:Freedom

[Hugonz]

And, overcome by happiness, I sank unto my knees and cried: "Never again shall I doubt thee, for I am indeed free!"

But Free, he was not.

What a deal!

[CaffeineAddict2001]

About $550,000 in money, software and consulting services?!

How generous to give up $20 dollars, 50 copies of XP and 3 hours of tech support.

No longer banana republics......

[isotope23]

I suggest we go with one of these alternatives

(A)Micro-Republics
(B)Blue Screen Republics
(C)Bill-me Republics
(D)Restart Republics

In addition we should probably start to redefine
politics through the mouse, i.e are you a
right-click fascist or a left-click anarchist?

(I would have suggested Mouse-Republic, but that option was taken long ago by the great god Disney....)

Microsoft "who do we want to own today?"

Re:No longer banana republics......

[rnturn]

``In addition we should probably start to redefine politics through the mouse, i.e are you a right-click fascist or a left-click anarchist?''

Middle-click anarchist. Two-button mice stink.

Re:No longer banana republics......

[Danse]

Must suck to only have one button. I can't imagine playing an FPS without 3 buttons and a wheel. I don't want to have to alt-click to alt-fire.

Money talks louder than personal rights

[FlynnMP3]

Looks like Microsoft bought themselves out of another problem, IE. losing marketshare. They tend to by themselves out of out all kinds of problems. They bought their freedom from the DoJ, still working on the various states. All that is is time. All the state governments want is craploads of money and they'll drop the cases.

Now Microsoft is buying governments outside of the US. This is a great day for them. Their internal Oligarchy Meter must maxxed out by now.

-FlynnMP3
"Imagine I said something witty here."

Then it'll beToo Late...

[fishlet]

because when all Peru gov's documents become .doc's, .xls, .ppts - their screwed, it'll be too hard to abandon then. BTW, I think the crack/cocaine comparison is an excellent one.

Media Center

[Fascist Christ]

Windows XP Media Center == TiVo on steroids

Seriously, this is nothing new. It is also not a "Personal Computer." I wonder how M$ will handle the copyright issues with recording TV programs, or even if they will allow you to edit out the commercials.

All in all, they are just taking a "PC" and further limiting its usage. No thanks, I think I'll pass on that one.

saw it coming

[Dr. Awktagon]

Ah I wish I could find the earlier comment were I said this is exactly what would happen in Peru. Well, no matter, this the usual Microsoft tactic. It worked in Mexico, now Peru. Will it work in Norway, a wealthier nation?

Must be nice to be able to print your own money like that: here's 1,000 CD copies of MS Foobar Pro, each worth $5,000 !! So we just made a donation of $5,000,000 and it's tax deductible (not that we pay taxes). And they'll still have to pay for upgrades. Beautiful! Let's see Open Source beat that!!

Re:saw it coming

[wfrp01]

here's 1,000 CD copies of MS Foobar Pro, each worth $5,000 !! So we just made a donation of $5,000,000 and it's tax deductible (not that we pay taxes)

That's a good point. Who's calculating the value of this donation? Microsoft. Based on what? The retail shelf price?

Donations should be valued according to what it costs the vendor to provide them. Peru is not giving MS upteen million dollars. MS is not providing Peru with software that they could have sold somewhere else. They are simply printing money.

Since congress is so hot-to-trot about corporate oversight these days, maybe they should take a closer look at this particular form of bullshit accounting.

Re:saw it coming

[jsac]

[H]ere's 1,000 CD copies of MS Foobar Pro, each worth $5,000 !! So we just made a donation of $5,000,000 and it's tax deductible (not that we pay taxes)

Open Source can beat this, using the same bullshit accounting. Just donate 1,000 CD copies of Mandrake Peruvian Gold Edition -- market price, whatever you want it to be.

Re:saw it coming

[Ozric]

Just like a crack dealer, the first hit it free. Everyone is too short sighted, they are not lookin 4 years down the road when MSFT pulls a forced upgrade on their ass. It's gonna cost em and MSFT will get all of their loss leader money back with spades(the CD's cost them 0.00$ anyway). Hey what do they care they will be outta of Office. It's the people who should make a stink about selling out their future. What about the Children? aahhh, as the say in the USA, screw them. THEY did not leave any Buffalo for me!

Re:saw it coming

[Ian Bicking]

Tax law does not allow you to take deductions on the retail price of your donations -- only the actual cost. In this case, it would be the cost of media. Of course, how you value the donation in press releases doesn't have to be related to how you value it to the IRS.

Re:saw it coming

[benedict]

"Peruvian Gold Edition"? Does it come with
a bag of cocaine?

Re:saw it coming

[SuperQ]

this is interesting, because my work (big 10 university) is part of the MSDN Acedemic Alliane. which basicaly gives all the students, staff, and faculty in the IT college access to anything in the MSDN tree. this includes compilers, libraries, and Operating systems. including server stuff. as long as it's for educational or personal use.

in exchange for this, MS is not deducting on what people actualy use, but what people _could_ use. the number I heard was that they were taking a FIFTEEN MILLION DOLLAR tax write-off for just our college.. (CS, EE, Math, Etc) this doesn't even include what they could be doing with liberal arts, medical, or general college.

oh.. and I think my department has used maybe 3 copies of win2k for use by professor's desktop systems.

Re:saw it coming

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. The price cited has to be the CheapBytes price. If not available from CheapBytes, it has to be the Original Manufactuer price.

Red Hat is in deep shit because of this.

---------

Sticker as many Red Hat and Mandrake box sets as you can with this cool Cheap Bytes sticker . Sock it to the fucking man (the suits at the Linux slaughterhouses)

Re:saw it coming

[HeUnique]

No, in Norway it's different..

Can you imagine a company with (lets say) 1000 pc's moving from Windows to Linux? or even moving from Office 2000/XP to Open-Office? I can hardly think so.

Why? think about training 1000 empolyees Open Office. Think that you need %100 export/import capabilities of Word, Excel, PowerPoint - OpenOffice can't give it to you (try to import a complicated PowerPoint from Office XP or complicated Word document and see what I mean)..

Add those costs - and you'll see why MS shouldn't be worry too much. The transformation and supporting all the workers will costs more then paying MS demands..

Re:saw it coming

[Ian Bicking]

Maybe this is true -- I just know that small businesses can't do this sort of thing. Of course, mere rules don't really apply to something like Microsoft.

Re:saw it coming

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a really good point, about how they're just "printing money." I had never thought of that before. Thanks.

Re:saw it coming

[mpe]

Can you imagine a company with (lets say) 1000 pc's moving from Windows to Linux? or even moving from Office 2000/XP to Open-Office? I can hardly think so.

As opposed to changing from one version of MS office to another. Probably on a time scale chosen by Microsoft...

Why? think about training 1000 empolyees Open Office.

Is this really any more different than changing from one version of MS office to another?

Think that you need %100 export/import capabilities of Word, Excel, PowerPoint - OpenOffice can't give it to you (try to import a complicated PowerPoint from Office XP or complicated Word document and see what I mean).

Like you get 100% compatability between different versions of MS Word.

Re:Its Basic Economics (!?)

[baquiano]

[...] sell my lemonade for $0.50, which is less than it takes for you to make lemonade. For you to compete is for you to lose money. I can afford it, because I have capital sitting in a bank account. You go out of business, and I raise my price back to $5. This is what MS is doing! Its basic economics, people.

The practice described above is not basic economics. It's blatant dumping and it's illegal in all decent countries.

If Micro$oft started offering their software and services for a price below the actual cost of producing them, with the sole purpose of driving their competitors out of business, they should be sued for unfair practices.

Yeah but...

[malakai]

Not all lemonade taste the same.

I've had some piss-poor lemonade in my times. Maybe that 5 dollar lemonade taste better? Maybe they spent more money on sugar, or use a cold filtering processes.....

What matters in the end, is what the user experiences. If they are refreshed, and enjoyed their 5 dollar experience, the so what if they are paying more? Thank god we aren't some poor socialist country where I have to sell my lemonade at cost in order to be a good comrade. Thank god I can make money off my countrymen, and attempt to rise above them through my own hard work (and it's hard, whether i invented lemonade or not, it's hard running the company).

Can't afford the 5 dollar lemonade? Feel left out? Stuck with drinking government issue, or homemade lemonade? Well then, this must be an incentive for you. Incentives are rare, so put it to good use.

-malakai

Re:Yeah but...

[pi radians]

Okay, I'll bite.

So what if your $5 lemonade is awful? It gets sour quickly and has a terrible aftertaste. A few times you buy this lemonade and the glass you got it in has a hole in it and your lemonade spills out. Since this $5 lemonade company has removed all other competition through "hard work" and now demandes that instead of charging for every glass, now you are charged for every sip you take.

Not only that, but in the future this $5 lemonade company won't let you but anything else except for their lemonade in that glass. So your stuck, paying for every sip of lemonade and then being forced to drink more and therefore buying more.

Yeah, that great. Because this lemonade (with that extra sugar that you can't remove from it) has given you cavities. And since you live in a non-socialist country that allowed the lemonade maker to thrive no matter how corrupt their practices are they have destroyed all other alternatives. By now they also own the water stand and are probably your dentist.

So thumbs up to you dude. Great insight on it all.

Re:Yeah but...

[fferreres]

How about the $5 lemonade will give people diarrea whenever they try another brand? How about the $5 lemonade beign digestive when combined with everyone's favourite "superpotatoes" at $0.5, but producing vomits when combined with any other beberage?

IMHO, this a better analogy to what's been happening in the last 10 years in the software field.

Re:Its Basic Economics (!?)

[Anonymous Coward]

So like dumping Linux+KDE+Wine (a clone of MS Windows) for free isn't anticompetitive?

I hope microsoft moves to hardware and leaves you freaking open source zealots in the dust trying to catch up with them.

Re:Too much 'My'

[Budgreen]

they forgot the most important one!

"my porn"

cheap bastard!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, he did shell out half a mill in bribes, but on a personal level, he gave the guy a hunk of glass while receiving a silver gift. What did he do? Go..."Uh gee, thanks...here I have something for you too..." reaches around and grabs paperweight off desk "..here!". Bill has no class.

Mom, bring up the last vacation on the tube....

[malakai]

"OK dear. I have to find it. Hang on, i have it written down, don't tell me. it's sea colon then that slash thingy, then documents, then another slash thingy, then family, then vacation... oh bugger forgot the slash, no wait, wrong slash...."

Did you folks see that screenshot of the "simple interface"? That thing looks more like the menus on my parents' satellite TV service than a computer interface. Note the preinstalled categories ("My TV," "My Music," etc.), as if "My Documents" and "My Computer" weren't bad enough

Imagine that, making the system as easy to use as a satellite TV system that YOUR parents can even use.

THE NERVE OF THEM!

-malakai

It Just Show's Their Liars

[ShwAsasin]

It's funny how 2 months ago Microsoft told the Judge in the Antitrust case that Windows could not be broken into smaller pieces. Now, amazingly enough, it can be. Isn't this lying under oweth?

Re:It Just Show's Their Liars

[ynohoo]

Isn't this lying under oweth?
No, that would be lying under oaf ;)

Re:Its Basic Economics (!?)

[Anonymous Coward]

>> [...] sell my lemonade for $0.50, which is less than it takes for you to make lemonade. For you to compete is for you to lose money. I can afford it, because I have capital sitting in a bank account. You go out of business, and I raise my price back to $5. This is what MS is doing! Its basic economics, people.
> The practice described above is not basic economics. It's blatant dumping and it's illegal in all decent countries.

Ummm....WalMart's been using this tactic, for years, wherever they establish a new store.

Since when has this been illegal here in the Good Ol' US of A? Has WalMart been successfully sued for this yet?

Understand, I agree with your position, but I also know that reality often operations Much differently than theory or "what's right".

There is some justice.

[fava]

According to this article Gates' mansion is overrun by incontinent geese.

At up to 3 lbs per bird per day a flock of geese camped out on your yard make a disgusting mess.

I think we should rent a helicopter and spread birdseed.

Re:(NOT) Funny

[Anonymous Coward]

I advocated alternatives to Microsoft in the mid 1990s...

All I got was a heap of trouble and was threatened with expulsion from university.

C'est la vie.

(my tale of woe at the behest of Billy Gates empire - posted anonymously deliberately)

Re:$550,000 in software...

[captain_craptacular]

Thats very true. It's not like other manufactured products where it actually costs a company money to make each individual copy. I.E. if Ford donates a car there was actual cost involved in making that car above and beyond R&D. Whereas when MSFT donates 10,000 copies of office, there is no real cost involved as I'm quite sure the R&D for office is paid for. The real cost to them is actually very nearly nothing, not even boxes and CD's because they probably give them like 10 cd's and 10 manuals and 10,000 liscences.

Been done already

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, I made most of this already, and its been out for almost 3 years. It even got slashdotted. And its free. http://www.media-box.org/downloads/b3.jpg says it all. I still believe mine is better than theirs since I can tie XML into each piece of content, and everything is modular (use any player you like, any remote control you like, etc.). I guess you could say now - why bother continuing with development, since this is another thing M$ have copied and given away for free. So much for competition. Funny, they have a My Movies too, just like me :P

Cold War All Over Again!

[cryptor3]

An Interesting Parallel to the Cold War:

You'll remember that the superpower US government tried to bribe all those Latin American countries away from Communism (O.S./free software) during the Cold War. There's no proof that they were particularly successful, but they did lead those countries right into the hands of military dictators like Noriega and his army (Bill Gates and lawyers)

Maybe this time communism will win.

Have some crack . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

"Here, have some crack - the first batch is free . . ."

Spoken like a true drug dealer.

"Here, have some software - the first batch is free . . ."

Spoke like a true software monopolist.

A different Media Center: Media-Box

[bentriloquist]

Try Media-Box - a very promising application. Not full featured yet, but what's there is good. Kon, the author, claims it will compile on Linux too but so far only binaries for Windows are available.

But this is a government.

[Steveftoth]

It's not like Peru couldn't just say FU to MS and just take the money and run. Who's going to stop them? Will Bush send in the army for MS to stop Peru from using open source software and cheating MS out of a million bucks worth of 'gifts'?

Re:But this is a government.

[Jason Earl]

Not for a lousy $550,000 they won't.

Re:But this is a government.

[gosand]

It's not like Peru couldn't just say FU to MS and just take the money and run. Who's going to stop them?

There is only one thing at Microsoft that scares me more than their software - their lawyers.

not quite

[Artifex]

This is what MS is doing!

Not really. Microsoft's monopoly power in the software market is mostly due to the barriers-to-entry, and not due to the ability to undercut pricing by taking a loss on manufacturing. Current barriers include (but are not limited to):

• startup costs - it costs a lot of money and time to develop a software "product." Remember that "Open Source != "free." It also takes money to set up for packaging and pressing disks and advertising, to get sufficient product to market and in the public eye while it's still "fresh."
• currently installed user base - users already familiar with and using one product will prefer it to other products unless they are substantially "better," because of the learning curve and capital already invested. "Better" can be either a) same functionality at a lower price, or b) higher functionality, at a price determined by user experience with current products.

If Microsoft was really using their monopoly power to undercut pricing by "dumping" - that is, buy selling at a loss, they would be charging less than the couple of bucks for cds and books that it costs them to make and ship a product now, assuming they've already recovered their development expenses. And before you try to counter with the idea that OEMs get some products (OS, maybe some productivity tools) for almost free, remember that MS probably ships them 1 or 2 copies of the products, in CD or data tapes or whatever form, for them to pre-install on their systems, and then also charges them for "backup" media for each machine, unless the OEMs are licensed to make their own backup media, etc.

Well of course...

[MongooseCN]

Did people really think that after everyone made a big deal of Villanueva's letter to MS, that MS was going to stand by and watch Peru dump MS products and start using Open Source projects? When people make a big deal about some anti-MS happening, that is going to make MS even more adamant about jumping into the issue and "fixing" their reputation.

Re:Well of course...

[Anonymous Coward]

mmmhhhhmmmmmm.. and how great it must feel when they offer loads of money to say, in your hottest dream you little carpet pisser. Keep your stinking M$ currency. No money is worth the price of enslaving a nation. Don't become a traitor by selling out your own people.

Slave Trade is bad.

There are laws that enslave you and laws that set you free. Pick any two.

Take the money f00, take the mooooneeeeiiiii!!!
anyways, I'm looking forward to what happens if the president .... ;)

They should just brain wash people.

[Steveftoth]

With ads on TV like:
You know, every line of code that you write for an Open Source project is causeing the suffering of hundreds of programmers here in Redmond. (Shows lines and lines of disgusting slovenly poor programmers working 20 hours a day) These hard working americans can hardly afford the payments on their homes and audis. So please, don't use Open Source software, it's communistic, unamerican and causes countless suffering for millions.

Seriously, a couple of years of brain washing on TV might just work for them.

Cost of Linux now measured in the negative?

[sterno]

It would seem that the cost of Linux is no longer zero. Instead it is effectively negative because in order to compete with it, it seems, Microsoft has to give organizations a bunch of incentives. It says something that in order to create a reasonable value proposition for their software they have to, not just give it away, but actually pay people to take it.

So the question for organizations now is, is it worth the upfront money Microsoft gives you to possibly be hooked into their products in the long run. Certainly you can use a possible linux move as leverage against MS prices, but in the end, is it better to use the leverage or to take Linux.

You have to presume that Microsoft has a plan of how they intend to make back this money in the long run. I can guarantee you that they aren't cutting half billion dollar checks at a whim without thorough belief that they'll make up for it. I'm sure that 5 years down the road Microsoft will be coming around to collect on those incentives. They'll collect by increasing licensing fees, further invading privacy, etc.

Re:Cost of Linux now measured in the negative?

[Bobzibub]

I'm curious what exactly makes this not a bribe?

Is it because it is public?

Cheers,
-b

Re:Cost of Linux now measured in the negative?

[WolfDeusEx]

The first hit is free.

But the rest is going to cost you.

Re:Cost of Linux now measured in the negative?

[Militant]

Let's not forget the cheque is for 1/2 million. Not 1/2 billion. I don't think they would care much about $500,000 bucks. Sure, they will want to collect. They will easily make this up when the teachers and students at home all stick with Windows.

$500,000,000 would be a much bigger deal!

Re:Cost of Linux now measured in the negative?

[fferreres]

Wow, yes they have a plan. But you make it sound like they NEED to recover from the $500 million loss. Actually, it costs them NOTHING. So if Peru is not going to use MS stuff (and MS will not see the money) why not better keep them using Windows? They'll think of something along the way (just buying time is good enough, maybe it's all they need, say 5 to 10 more years)

MS has ALWAYS done this: "if you don't want to pay, pirate for crist sake (but don't use other stuff). If I can make you pay, well, you are just out of luck".

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Its Basic Economics (!?)

[Steveftoth]

If Micro$oft started offering their software and services for a price below the actual cost of producing them, with the sole purpose of driving their competitors out of business, they should be sued for unfair practices.

The funny thing is that's exactly what they are doing with the X-Box, yet they are not succeding with the tactic. Is it still illegal if nobody buy it?

XP Media Center

[Havokmon]

Kinda reminds me of the "Good Old Days"

I had an Apple ][e with a Color RGB monitor, and I got a seperate TV tuner for Xmas with RCA hookups. I could flip a switch and 'watch TV on my computer'. Audio was routed through my stereo.

Later, when I got a VCR (you know, the 150lb top load ones!),
I was able to RECORD TV 'on my computer' :P

Re:XP Media Center

[rnturn]

Just goes to show yah how ``innovative'' Microsoft is. Rehashing old Apple ideas.

Re:Too much 'My'

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called a 'marketing tactic' to a bunch of greedy American consumers who think they own everything they have, and that they are the ones who made themselves great. MS is capitalizing on American greed, and in capitalism, greed is good.

CEO (Chief Evil Officer)

[Tetsujin28]

Bill Gates is desperate to keep Peru on his side, so he can finish his high-tech mountain stronghold lair high in the Andes. He's still jealous of Dr. Evil's hollow volcano.

Re:CEO (Chief Evil Officer)

[Scrab]

Why not try www.villainsupply.com. All the hollow volcanoes you could possibly want.....

do the same? doesn't matter

[dpilot]

Others have mentioned Microsoft's giant cash pile, and said that they can keep giving away Windows practically forever in the third world.

But it doesn't matter, this HURTS.

First off, there's the simple fact that Linux made it onto the table, and it took Bill Gates himself to go 'bring back the account.' That's quite an endorsement Microsoft has given Linux, right there.

Second, Linux made it onto the table, here and in Norway. Simply getting onto the table is new. Maybe for the next few rounds Linux will get onto the table as a bargaining ploy. But one of these times it's going to be a WIN.

Third, Microsoft is sitting on a big pile of cash, just about everyone knows that. But now a big part of their invincible image has become that pile of cash. It's no longer completely fluid, it has become an essential holding. Besides, the death of a thousand paper cuts is perhaps more likely than a big wound. So add up X-Box subsidies, third-world givaways, European givaways, (Norway, anyone?) and no doubt some 'License V6 adjustments' to keep customers in the fold, and it's going to be tough to keep that wad of cash.

That cash is also only part of the image. The Gates trip to Peru chips away, License V6 chips away, the DOJ trial took a big chunk out, etc.

Middle click?

[isotope23]

What about a middle of the mouse
"wheelist"

as the church lady says...

[jjoyce]

"How convenient."

Just Like Tobacco Companies

[Anonymous Coward]

The software giant said Windows XP Media Center, formerly codenamed Freestyle, was aimed at "digital media enthusiasts, college dorm rooms and teen bedrooms.

Make it look sexy. Suck them in. Get them hooked. Then start milking them. It will eventually harm them but that's OK when big bucks are on the line.

And if I see one more damned %*$&*&%^%#^*@! cloying "My Anything", I'll go mad.

idea?

[mike77]

DR. EDGAR DAVID VILLANUEVA NUÑEZ for presidente!!!

Presidente Bush es muy mal y estupido!!!

Offtopic: Need a favor... Punish this spammer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Call this guy:
Barry C Deuschle, Sr.
BCD TECHNOLOGIES WEST INC.
1535 OAK INDUSTRIAL LANE SUITE A
CUMMING, GA 30041
866-655-3475 ext. # 61

Just tell him you don't appreciate companies that send spam and hang up.

I would be most appreciative!

Slashdot isn't allowing me to post the full headers:
Your comment violated the "postercomment" compression filter. Try less whitespace and/or less repetition. Comment aborted.

Nice way to avoid taxes!

[mike449]

I sell software product Foo for $100 per license. Maybe 1,000 licenses per year. Then I say: " I grant 10,000 licenses to charity" and give the charity organization 1 physical CD and an agreement to sign. Suddenly, I have donated $1,000,000 to charity, way more than my revenue for the whole year. Eat this, IRS!!! (DOJ, in M$ case)

Re:Bloody Microsoft... YES!

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as M$ as much as *exists*, society is in jeopardy. Period.

It's both a questin of enlightened self-interest and a moral duty to *utterly destroy Micro$oft*.

Total obliteration of M$. No hate, no mercy, no remorse.

Pssst! The first fix is free!

[halsathome]

Hey, Peru, we can help you lock all your data into proprietary formats, and wean all your best brains on proprietary sofware, for FREE !!

Donated software - is not (necessarily) free

[fw3]

It may be that Peru has actually accepted just software and not support services. Software support is quite expensive, and software without support is generally not very valuable.

As the article I read states "software, cash and consulting services", I imagine MSFT will be providing support.

It doesn't always work out that way, I read years ago that in the '70s W.R. Hearst 'gave' a dismantled monastery to the city of San Francisco (probably reaping a nice tax benefit). However as he neglected to provide any funds to assemble the stones, they sat in Golden Gate Park, rain washed off the identifying marks (which goes where) and thus today there's just a pile of stones.

Anyhow, in the automotive industry, my uderstanding is that most of the *profit* is in 'support', auto manufacturerers typically sell the vehicle at or near their manufacturing cost and make their money on parts and service.

Will the FSF do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

First, spend a few minutes reading up on antitrust law. It's quite legal to sell stuff cheaper than the competition. Indeed, it's illegal to make agreements not to do this.

In some circumstances it's illegal to sell stuff for less than it costs to produce it. That has to do with the firm's own costs of production, not with whatever the competition is charging.

Which brings up an interesting question about the FSF, an entity that exists solely to distribute stuff for less money than it costs to produce, with the explicit goal of driving other software companies out of business.

Re:Will the FSF do the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which brings up an interesting question about the FSF, an entity that exists solely to distribute stuff for less money than it costs to produce, with the explicit goal of driving other software companies out of business.

I think $4.25 for shipping and $.75 for the stamped CDs are a fair price. Besides that, there is no cost of production of extra units of FSF software.

Why use Linux?

[MrLinuxHead]

Why use Linux? Not because Linux is free, but because Linux is Freedom.

Couple of things

[theolein]

I have an idea, looking at the screenshots of the XP media center, that a few Photoshop'ed images of a copy of the XP start screen (with no yellow ducky for good luck this time around), with some highlighted buttons are not a product. This is just usual Microsoft "try to capture the market before it exists" FUD, much the same as Hailstorm and .Net were vapourware for an enourmous period of time before something actually materialised. Microsoft, by their own admission as of yesterday, is very worried that upstart Apple could have 8% marketshare instead of the 3 to 4% it now has.

As for Peru, $500 000 is somewhat less than the $150 million that Microsoft gave to the South African government a while ago. I wonder if that reflects on the level of Cash that Microsoft eventually expects to get back from the 50% of South Africa's population that is actually employed, usually at wages of around $350/month? Or is it because Microsoft feels that they have a better chance of owning South African politicians?

Addresses of peruvian government

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the directory of the peruvian government. and this one the directory of peruvian congressmen.(both written in ASP). Maybe a samaritanian soul has the mood to gather all those emails to say a word to them on this subject. I wouldn't call this spam. Would you?

No Might About the DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm afraid Microsoft might tie in too much DRM"

You can see from the screen shot that MS is very up front that DRM is already there:

"My Music"
"My Pictures"
"My Video"

There's no option to play "Your Music"...

Persoanlly, My Take on this "product" is:

Kiss My Butt

Money always woks for M$ ...

[Mr. Mai]

Anyone that read the Congressman's Villanueva response to Microsoft defending free software solutions, could notice that via dialog M$ wasn't able to get anywhere, the congressman was absolutely right. But M$ knows that Paru is a economycally (not cultutrally) poor country of latin america so they decided for the most effective tactic ... disguise their economic power and supremacy as a donation. And force them to use their solution. What a shame

Opensource can beat that!

[nortcele]

Because now Peru should be able to sell the donated copies in Peru, pocket the money and still use OpenSource. Now that would torque Bill&Co just a little. If they are serious about Open Source, that is what needs to be done.

Re:Its Basic Economics (!?)

[hexx]

If Micro$oft started offering their software and services for a price below the actual cost of producing them, with the sole purpose of driving their competitors out of business, they should be sued for unfair practices.

The funny thing is that's exactly what they are doing with the X-Box, yet they are not succeding with the tactic. Is it still illegal if nobody buy it?

This is not what MS is doing with the XBox. They are competing with Sony/Nintendo (notice the price for the PS2 and XBOX are the same).

Dumping, as a business practice, is a moral dilemma, thus difficult to quantify.

Here in Peru

[Kz]

First: I'm peruvian, programmer by trade, mostly on Mac systems. And on the last few years i've integrated a lot of Linux servers on my recommendations.

A big point in the presidential campain of the current president was a 'modernizing the schools' project. In practice that only means get a big donation of PCs on the schools and some software to run on it. Ah, also make sure there's a phone line somewhere to get online (yes, mostly with POTS modems)

So, it's not surprising that M$ wants to be the one providing the software. Get the kids tinking windows==pc==computer, and internet==IE

not only that, but the local IT industry will have to be 'compatible' with whatever is everywhere, so that's who will pay: any company that wants to do anything with this will have to have M$ systems.

It was absolutely improbable to get the Free Software law approved. Nobody (I mean NOBODY) in the goverment would try to get rid of existing software. It just won't work. The first time they get a .doc file, they'll boot windows and forget about freedom, virus threats, spycode, etc.

what would be possible (but still difficult) and much more important would be to require all documents in an open format. the Villanueva proposal mentions that, but briefly.

I can't imagine a government-paid sysadmin saying to M$ (or any big software company) "I want your software but only if it's Open Source". But I can imagine saying "I want your software but only if it uses open format documents".

And M$ could reply "no problem, use RTF" and hope they'll forget and use .doc (so that we would be still locked)

Right...

[matvei]

As well as playing CDs or DVDs, you will be able to watch TV and record shows on to the computer's hard drive.

That's weird. I thought the whole point behind MS's DRM OS was to prevent people from making illegal copies of the latest Disney movies. I guess this feature won't live too long...

How to beat microsoft at their own game

[SuperKendall]

1. Create new Linux distro - "PERUnix" for the sake of argument.

2. Burn CD's.

3. Charge $1 million per CD.

4. Donate over $100 million worth of software to Peru, far exceeding MS "generosity". Point them to support groups to provide the equivlient of services offered.

Re:How to beat microsoft at their own game

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, isn't open source software estimated to be worth 1 billion dollars? So a slackware CD can be a donation of 1 billion? Go for it.........

How to come off as both obtuse and naive...

[JohnDenver]

Microsoft is donating something to somebody! Must be an evil conspiracy! Quick, let's make up some theories about how this will oppress people for years to come somewhere.

Naive - Unsuspecting or credulous
Obtuse - The inability to distinguish jack shit

If Microsoft is just being generous, why should they single out Peru??? See how easy that is??? Just a little skepticism goes a long way...

Imagine what a lot of skepticism will do!!!

You need to learn to distinguish between crack pot conspiracy thoeries and basic run-of-the-mill corruption and business tactics. Giving away freebies to hook in a customer is about as run-of-the-mill as they come...

Figures to Scale

[nagora]

Using the CIA Factbook for 2001 the US economy is 81 times the size of Peru's the this equates to about 40 and a half million dollars in terms of its percentage of the country's income.

Scaled to GDP per capita it's about 4 million. Statistics: you pay your money, ya takes your pick.

TWW

Re:Figures to Scale

[gelfling]

Except that it still takes a given units of dollars to deliver a given unit of computing regardless of your standard of living. If MS gave money to Malawi it would be the equivalent to 1 year's income for every man, woman and child but that doesn't make the effect of computing on their lives any bigger or smaller.

BTW BillG is worth ~the same as Peru.

Re:Figures to Scale

[nagora]

Except that it still takes a given units of dollars to deliver a given unit of computing regardless of your standard of living.

That's why I think the larger figure is a better guide as it relates to what the government would have had to remove from other programmes (such as social security and housing). The 550K will, as you say, only buy 550K worth of computing but the 550K saved will have a much bigger effect on the government's budget in other areas.

Of course, an even bigger win would be to save all the money they currently pay MS.

TWW

Look at this picture of Toledo and Gates

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like Toledo is wanting more. Look like he's saying "oh please, go to the south, go to the south, don't forget my b..."

Re:$550,000 in software...

[Citizen of Earth]

Whereas when MSFT donates 10,000 copies of office, there is no real cost involved as I'm quite sure the R&D for office is paid for.

Oh come on. There is a per-copy media cost for CDs and books. Bill could be out $20K-$30K over this deal.

Re:Its Basic Economics (!?)

[Jason Earl]

If what Microsoft is doing is illegal, then what about what RedHat is doing? They not only give the software away, they even throw in source code, and make it easy to install this software over the Internet.

Besides, what do you bet Microsoft ends up making a profit on the Peruvian government. They throw in $550,000 in perks, and get a nice deal. If Microsoft makes money, then its not dumping, its merely being a good businessman.

Re:Too much 'My'

[JPelorat]

Ya know, too much hatred is just as bad as too much greed.. don't let it burn you up.

How long before ...

[Anonymous Coward]

...MS makes Media Center (ptooey) an "integral part of the O/S"? (MS lawyers to judge "It's absolutely essential - now Clippy can talk!").

I'm guessing next service (serve us?) pack or automatic update or whatever XP victims call them these days.

Introducing... Windows XP Media Center

[skryche]

The software will not be available as a separate operating system. Instead, it will be packaged together with personal computers specially designed to deliver its key media features.

...This is a reference to DRM. Don't you agree? [...Shudder...] I hope WXPMC fails, but I think it has a fighting chance.

Typical politician

[Eric Damron]

The President of Peru was having problems with the poll numbers so he cuts a deal with Microsoft that he hopes he can use to generate rhetoric that will bolster his sagging image.

Anyone with one ounce of insight will see that this is nothing but a Trojan horse. Microsoft is giving money, software, and consulting.

Microsoft wants to ensure that the children are indoctrinated in all ways Microsoft. They are basically trying to raise a crop of future consumers. Microsoft is going to provide consulting. Yeah, right. Like what are the Microsoft consultants going to tell Peru other than "use Microsoft."

The sad part is that if Microsoft succeeds Peru will become more dependant on a single company. It will be later, after it's too late for Peru, that Microsoft will call in its markers and screw the people of Peru.

Microsoft must be starting to shit itself...

[shades66]

if it can afford to throw money everywhere everytime some goverment mentions 'opensource'

hopefully the peruvian goverment will take the money and plough it into the opensource development.

well we can wish anyway!

Heh, they should be so lucky

[Interrobang]

Sure they could use it...but they don't. Does anybody? Not that the satellite menu does much anyway. (Just as I suspect certain parties would like our computers to become.)

Note: I'm not a raving CLI/it's got to be tough or it's crap advocate here. Ease of use is a Good Thing...but dumbing down interfaces so there's only one thing (or one restricted set of things) you can do at any one time is not only bad design, it's extremely limiting. Not to mention frustrating, even for ordinary folks like my mom and dad, who occasionally do find themselves going, "But why can't I...?"

Besides which, the satellite menu thingie is harder to use than its cable equivalent is...or (gasp!) flipping the dial ever was. Net result the same. Except that now there's 250 channels and nothing you want to watch.

Which doesn't precisely apply to computers, except, hmm, Microsoft? Control freaks? Naaah.

Re:Heh, they should be so lucky

[shadowbearer]

About satellite tv sys:

I see those interfaces quite often. IMO they are garbage: they could be done much better. The learning curve is so steep (and so unlike everything else out there, they are always *improving* them) that most people never bother to learn them. I tutor people in general electronic gadgets quite often and most of the average customers I have abhor the interfaces. Heck, I hate 'em - they're all different and they're all a PITA.

However, I also tutor people in using Windows. I'll give someone some sessions, they'll nod and say "OK" and a month later they're calling me wanting to know how to cut and paste again. Windows learning curve vs. Linux learning curve? Give me a break. Maybe learning curve applies a lot (more/less?) to corporate customers, but for the average person (Wow, that's a computer? How do you turn it on? Can I surf with it? :) it's a pointless argument. They have to be taught from scratch anyway. I'd like to disclaim some of that by saying that my experience may be unique to some extent - I work in a very poor area providing cheap computers to people who often it is their first experience.

Very few Linux customers as yet, most of them seem to pretty much know what they're doing :) which of course forces *me* to learn more...

Of course GUI limits the capabilities of CLI. But remember that (mostly) the reason this is so is that few designers write GUI apps to include form code for all the CLI options. This is left to the users/coders :) - tho it's something I think that designers should do. (Bury 'em under the "advanced" tabs....)

Think of what a permutation of the BeOS could do....talk about a short learning curve. I've shown it to a few customers and they've gone "Wow, this is easy" :) Sigh.It can be implemented in so small a space...

Shadowbearer

Re:Its Basic Economics (!?)

[Anonymous Coward]

We've seen that M$ can be successfully sued w/o real consequences. That being the case and given M$'s money they have in reserves, why should they care if they continue?

Whatever

[Danse]

1st: He's talking about Microsoft giving away software that they normally charge for, such as this case with Peru, not charging for software that is normally free.

2nd: Dual licensing makes no difference to the free-ness of GPL'd software. Once you release something under the GPL or similar license, you can't unrelease it. Sure, you can license it to someone else under different terms if you own the copyright, but you still can't take back the GPL'd code. If you decide not to maintain or improve it, someone else will.

Re:Its Basic Economics (!?)

[tgke]

I'm not too well known to the US laws, but selling your goods while losing money to kill competition IS illegal hier in Belgium. And allthough it might be many braindead and insane laws down here, I can hardly believe no other countries have the same rule.

But on the other hand, I wouldn't call MS' move "dumping", but just choosing the only option they have .. ;-p

Free Software in the US

[apt142]

MS has done this with companies in the United States as well. I work at a non-profit. We have very little funds. And, MS donates a lot of software to our organization. Because, I believe if they didn't we'd look more for open source solutions.

Now, they aren't making a dime off of it in the short run. But, they are keeping employees here well trained in the MS apps.

Peru's Taking a Giant Step Backward

[rnturn]

Great. Someone managed to convince the Peruvian president that having the internet in their schools will make their country a better place to live. I wonder what Peru will be like if this donation makes the Peruvian legislature decide to adopt Microsoft software as the sole product used on the government. Well, personally, I think it won't be anything good.

One doesn't have to read too many education-related journals to find studies that indicate that introducing high-technology solutions into schools rarely produces the end result touted by the people who push for it. The problems in education are hardly due to a lack of high-tech. But that doesn't stop companies like Microsoft who see a donation as a tax-free means of indoctrinating future customers.

In the long run, I suspect that it'll pretty much kill any software industry that Peru might now have or hope to have. (Perhaps an ulterior motive on MS's part, eh?). The country will wind up spending a fortune on keeping current with new Microsoft products. Money that would have been much better spent on improving other things in Peru. Then, some years from now, the Peruvian government will be asking themselves why things aren't any better than they were in 2002. Maybe they'll come to the realization that they would have been much better off listening to Dr. Nunez, adopting a technology that would have put the country in a much better position to develop a local industry (one that could have possibly resulted in creating jobs exporting software and/or services to neighboring countries), and helping themselves than the course they did follow of taking the easy way out and accepting Microsoft's self-serving generocity. All for the immediate gratification of having a PC in the classroom with software created by the richest man in the world. (For some bureaucrats this is, apparently, a feeling that's better than sex.)

It's the old ``Give a man a fish...'' concept. This donation doesn't help Peru do anything more than (eventually) send money to the MS (for upgrades, etc.) and to be consumers instead of creators.

Note: Before anyone slams me for being anti-Microsoft (true as that may be ;-) ), it's more of a case of being anti-sleazy-corporation. I know of other large corps that go through these motions of wanting to help out in the third-world through programs like this MS donation and it's all a sham. When you listen closely to what they propose (and you won't hear it in a press release ; someone would catch on.), you find that what they're really after is getting XYZ Corp. seen as a nice bunch of people who the locals will eventually turn to when they finally have enough money to spend. There's no altruism there at all; it's all PR directed toward increasing market share. After you hear a couple of these presentations it makes you sick.

That's how you can beat free.

[spektr]

MS products for -500.000 dollar. How could free beat that? But I wonder what Joe S. will think when he learns that MS wastes tax-payer money in Peru and Africa. Funny stuff. Imagine him thinking and lerning. Steam comming out of his ears. Eyes rolling. Finally he doesn't get it.

debianzhang

[Anonymous Coward]

dehehe bill gates e' ricco e quindi e' sbagliato io invece sono qui in cina con il maestro xian e speriamo di trovare tanti amici su slashdot forse qualcuno sa quando esce woody quindi evviva il software libero ovvero free e debian rulez

Danegild Re:Will everybody do the same?

[einhverfr]

It is sort of ironic-- after September 11th, there was all this talk about how you can't placate your enemies and give them an easy way of making gains off you (and bringing up the historical example of Danegild as an example where Danes were paid not to raid, so they just paid visits to England asking for money).

Now Microsoft is doing exactly this-- paying people to push the competitions' software. Whatever it means, I don't think it is good for MS.

Here's why...

[sterno]

Bribery is generally a situation where an individual or individuals in government are given something in echange for special consideration of some decision. In this case the government as a whole is being given something for special consideration.

The basic issue in bribery is the notion that government officials will be having their objective opinions of the benefit of something tainted by their personal gain from the decision. If somebody writes a check to the government, there's no bribery, because, as a whole, the government would benefit. If they write a check to the president, it is bribery, because it's influencing the decision in a way that's extraneous to the direct cost/benefit for the country.

More details about MS in Peru

[Anonymous Coward]

I submitted this earlier today, but it was rejected, it has some more interesting links, some of them in Spanish, feel free to post translations(I don't have the time to do it myself)

2002-07-16 12:59:06 Microsoft buys Peru (articles,news) (rejected)
---
The firts news, in Spanish, from Barrapunto, Advogato have another article about it in English, and another news item from Register, and more coverage in Spanish in a Peruvian news site.

Basically MS is "giving" 550$ million in software and consulting, including setting up an intranet for the congress, a "secure" web site for the government and giving away software for a few thousand schools.

I wonder how much is this really costing to MS? and how much will they get back from it? How much will Peru have to pay in the next "upgrade cycle"?

The proposed bill to mandate Free/Open software in the government have been put on hold, and will probably be dismissed, but some people(including Dr. Villanueva) will continue working on getting it accepted.

Well, we all knew that it was just matter of time until MS bought their own country...

At least we all have gained from this a great anti-FUD
---

How much buys you 550M $$? This days it seems yo buy you a full country... with president and all...

Re:More details about MS in Peru

[Anonymous Coward]

That 550M is actually just 550K, well, what's the difference burning a few more thousands of WinXP CDs?

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does 'media center' sound like apple's 'digital hub' to anyone else?

Digital Hub: "Dih-gih-tul-hub"
Media Center: "Mee-dee-ah-sen-tur"

They don't sound alike to me. Let's try:

Media Center: "Mee-dee-ah-sen-tur"
Resistance is Futile. All your media are belong to us: "Mee-dee-ah-sen-tur"

Now those sound alike!

what Peru ought to do is...

[Anonymous Coward]

take that 550 bucks and go buy whatever the heck they want to buy such as some computer without microsoft windoze on them, then download some ISOs of whatever Linux OS they had allready planed on using and continue as planned to switch over to open source, and whatever software billy borg gave them would make great coasters...

It may not be dumping...

[Steveftoth]

MS may not technically be dumping the X-Box, as you are correct that they would have to sell it at a much lower cost to actually be 'dumping' it. But they are losing a substancial amount of money on each x-box sold (at compared to the total cost). Somewhere around a hundred dollars I believe. Regardless, they are definatly trying to buy a market by selling these machines at this low of a price. The Xbox is worth much more then $200 if it were able to run normal PC software. Which is could probably do with nothing more then a different BIOS, which would be cheap to produce.

The Salesman always rings twice

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill Gates has decided to do a road trip and see how much can a 0.5 million dollar bribe buy him in Peru. I don't know how much it will buy, but I know what it will buy, so I can guess how much. The money is to be given back to Microsoft in exchage for Microsoft software: OS, Productivity tools (Word, !Excell, PressurePoint, etc.), and 200 free minutes of dialup access to MSN (Peru still pays the phone bill for the international call). And ofcourse free licensing for a year. After which the licences for said software will be 3.89 times the GOP of Peru. No thank you, Bill. As Norway did, I urge Peru to say .no to .NET and move into the next century and the world of open source. As LJ said: In a world without fences who needs Gates?

what /. interview, you toad?

[Anonymous Coward]

/. never did an interview -- Linux Today did. Michael Sims, you're a toad for taking credit for the work of others.

Re:Bribes???????

[Anonymous Coward]

In the old days if you paid money to another government in exchange from preferential treatment on future contracts it was called an illegal bribe...

Anything with "Media Center"

[The Cat]

especially with a remote control (cough)
is a thiny disguised request to
"get back on the couch."

Windows XP Media Center

[guttentag]

The software giant said Windows XP Media Center, formerly codenamed Freestyle, was aimed at "digital media enthusiasts, college dorm rooms and teen bedrooms."

Yeah, I had this in 1998 (it had been out for a few years already by that time). It was called Apple TV Tuner.

For about $100 I got a box with two cards to add to my Performa 6360 (one added an RCA-in and an S-video-in while the second added a connection for an antenna or cable) and a remote (that could talk to an existing IR port on the front of the machine) that could control the volume, change channels, control the machine's CD player and even turn the computer on and off. My roommate had a Power Mac 5400 that had the same IR port on the front -- I stopped using the remote for a while after I inadvertantly turned his computer off from across the room while he was typing a paper.

A $150 kit I was never able to find added the same plus an FM tuner (anyone have one of these?).

With my newly upgraded machine I was able to record MPEGs from any source that came through the cable, antenna, S-video or RCA cables. Yes, it ignored Macrovision. With a larger hard drive (I only had the stock 1.2 GB) and a cron job (an AppleScript probably would have sufficed) the machine could have recorded TV shows while I was in class. I haven't bought a TV since purchasing that card -- I just wish the machine had more than 1MB VRAM soldered to the motherboard.

The interesting thing is that Apple dropped this great toy. Why? Was there too little interest? My friends complained that a 15-inch monitor just doesn't make a good TV, but that was the only complaint. Actually, I seem to remember reading somewhere that there once was a Mac-in-TV initiative at Apple that got killed by management as an overzealous, unworkable project. Will Apple resurrect that now, or is Microsoft going to find the same trouble selling this?

Re:Take it and run - and screw over everybody else

[capt.Hij]

What makes the government adoption so important is that when the government expects all of the stuff sent to them to be in an MS format then there is pressure for a very large number of organizations to adopt MS software. It is a minor annoyance for MS to have to bribe the government when they can make up for it in a big way with all of the people who have to deal with the Peruvian government.

Sure it is possible to use Open Source and keep all of your files in MS format, but it is a royal pain. There is a huge impetus to go with MS.

Currently a large number of US government agencies work in MS formats. Anybody who wants to deal with the US government had better use MS formats or they are screwed. This alone means that MS has a huge advantage over every competitor.

Lebensraum

[psamuels]

Am I the only one who read the article title as a paraphrase for "Microsoft invades Peru for Lebensraum"?

Or...

[Anonymous Coward]

The first time they get a .doc file, they'll boot windows and forget about freedom, virus threats, spycode, etc.

Or, they will open the document in OpenOffice and find they can read it and not bother booting Windows at all. Makes sense to me. They create their documents and save as .swf (an open documented format). What's your hangup?

Or our hypothetical office worker does what I do, which requires a little more chutzbah. I send only in SWF or HTML and when someone has the collosal gall to send me .doc; I fire back the approved form e-mail explaining that Microsoft Word is not an open format, and is known to carry macro viruses and so on, and demand they save in the correct format. They usually apologize and resend in the correct format. Eventually they always send in the correct, approved format. You'd be surprised what a little social pressure can do.

Saying something is impossible requires evidence. You've given none.

Welcome ...

[Anonymous Coward]

to Slashdot, Mr. Bush.

I won't gripe about MS ...

[Anonymous Coward]

if they confess it was "their bad", cease doing business, promise never to do it again, and donate their billions to charity. They just have to do something that is worthy of praise rather than contempt. There's a first time for everything.

Giving away free software is a good thing

[Sunnan]

The free software movement has given billions of dollars worth of software to everyone, including peruvians.

Microsoft is sorta lending away some crummy binaries for a while and they say that this is worth $550,000. Maybe they gave the prez some money under the table, as well.

By giving non-free, binary only software to your people you are limiting their creativity and creating a dependency on Redmond.

wheels within wheels

[SlideGuitar]

Of course if you were Peru (can a person be a state?), and you wanted to get a big donation of MS software, the first thing you would want to do is to take seriously non-MS software and make noises about open source.....

I doubt the Peruvian legislator who wrote the original memo was being THAT clever, but who can say?

$500,000?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets see

$250 /hr to consult (yes MS consultants easily do cost that much -- though their salaries are only $50 to 65 /hr). One month of 3-4 consultants.

A few hundred copies of MS Windows Pro that the Peruvians wouldnt have bought anyway.

Thats it.

$500,000 "donation" wasted.

Microsoft gets it's donation back.

Microsft can donate 1 billion $ of software to Africa and not feel a thing .. because nobody would have bought the software there anyway.

Donating software is not the same as Honda or Ford donating cars. There is no loss to the software company.

Banana Republic, New World Order Style...

[freerangegeek]

How is this unlike the US Government paying some 3rd world South American government large sums of money as 'foreign aid' to keep the people they want in power and the government friendly?

Well, except that the role of the US Government is now being played by Micro$oft. Something I fear that will become increasingly common. Then again, oil companies have been doing this sort of thing in the Middle East for eons.

There is still the old adage, "Don't steal, the government doesn't like competition." Maybe Uncle Sam will begin to see this as walking on his turf. Naah, not with George and his brand of corporate pushovers in office.

Bill's real fear here, of course, is that Free Software might succeed in Peru. If it did, how would he keep his monopoly in any other similar sized nation?

Dude...

[malakai]

Lemons grow on trees.

You can grow your own and do what you will with them.

They can't ever take that away from you.

Will it be tough taking on someone already dug in and defending their turf? Hell yes. There's a reason many business teach Sun Tzu to their associates.... business is WAR!

And we all know, all's fair in love and war.

So quit your whining, buy some lemon trees, and start making good, wholesome, fresh, lemonade for whatever profit margin you want. If that 5$ lemonade is as bad AS YOU SAY IT IS, then who wouldn't rather have yours?

-malakai

Oh no!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right. What fine humanitarians MS are!

Excuse the rest of us while we laugh uncontrollably.

Watch out, Peru!

[Anonymous Coward]

Beware of MS bearing gifts! They're giving you copies of Windows 3.0 and plan make tens of millions from you on upgrades. We learned that one the hard way.

advice to el presidente...

[phloda]

Beware of Geeks bearing gifts!

The Ghey O' Meter is at Redline !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

How big of MS,

$500,000.00 worth of MS Operation Systems and Office Products: In reality 20 dollars in cd's

$50,000.00 for one MCSE to format any operating systems other than Microsoft throught Peru : in reality (Food, Gas and Lodging) $10,000.00

Next years profits from Peru to Microsoft for consultation and education....

PRICELESS !!!

this is going to be GREAT

[BroadbandBradley]

when the governments "open source only" bill does pass and Microsofts "donation" gets used to teach how to program for Linux.

problem is, all those government folks might just toss freedom and ideals for Cash.

Make government more transparent

[Snoopy77]

Using IIS I presume

the drug dealer method

[Anonymous Coward]

NEVER sell your first rock. Let them come to you in hunger what you sold to those that originally did not need to eat.

Escalation - A chronlogy of events

[Cinabrium]

I'm not currently authorized to reveal my sources, but have some first hand information about the events surrounding Peru/MS case that could help to clarify things a little bit. The process of countering Dr. Villanueva's bill had several escalation steps; some of them saw the light, and some others didn't. I guess it's time to tell what I know.

1. Dec 14 2001 - Dr. Villanueva introduces the Bill.
2. Mar 06 2002 - Public Forum in the House of Congress (attendance > 500), chaired by the President of the Congress.
3. Mar 08 2002 - Universidad Nacional de Tumbes, a public university in Northwestern Peru, communicate their official support to the bill.
4. Mar 19 2002 - First counterattack: the Peruvian Software Producers Association (APESOFT)'s Chairman objections to the proposed Bill in "Gestion", a local newspaper.
5. Mar 20 2002 - Reply by Dr. Villanueva, in the same newspaper
6. Mar 25 2002 - Second counterattack - The now infamous letter of MS-Peru's General Manager to Dr. Villanueva
7. Apr 08 2002 - The well known reply of Dr. Villanueva
8. May 20 2002 - Universidad Nacional de Ingenieria (second largest public university in Peru, specialized in engineering and science) gives official support to the Bill.
9. May 27 2002 - Third counterattack - The American Chamber of Commerce of Peru (AmCham) sends a letter to the President of the Congress, opposing the bill. Same arguments as MS ones, plus some diplomatic threats as "...negative signals to private investments..." and Godzilla will eat our children.
10. Jun 07 2002 - Dr. Villanueva replies AmCham's letter.
11. Jun ?? 2002 - Fourth counterattack - Conversations, informal talks and "occasional meetings" of U.S. Ambassador Hamilton wih several high-ranked Peruvian officials, reminding them the dangers of approving the Bill.
12. Jun 11 2002 - Fifth counterattack - Letter from the Prime Minister, enclosing a memo of the head of the e-government project objectioning the bill. Same arguments as MS ones, plus "...negative impact in the process of renewing the APTA (Andean Trade Preference Agreement", plus the usual seven plagues of Egypt. Mr. Bermudez, the e-government guy, is known as being closely related to MS. Mr. Dañino, the former Prime Minister, is a lawyer whose law firm has MS-Peru as one of its most prominent clients
13. Jun 25 2002 - Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos (the largest public university in Peru and the oldest in America [est. 1551]) gives official support to the Bill.
14. Jul 15 2002 - Sixth Counterattack - President Toledo's pilgrimage to Seattle, to receive the 30 coins (or less) from the hands of Mr. Gates

Except Mr. Hamilton's talkings, which were not recorded AFAIK, there is written evidence of all the facts stated above.

In addition, let me point out that, if Microsoft is pricing its consulting services at the same rate it did for their agreement with the Chilean Ministry of Education, the $550K "donation" means just 5000 person/hours of consulting.

Re:Escalation - A chronlogy of events

[Chris Johnson]

Um.... What exactly is the American Chamber of Commerce of Peru?

Is it in fact a part of the U.S. Government?

If it is, what the HELL are they doing acting as Microsoft lobbyists?

If it isn't, then what is it really?

Re:Escalation - A chronlogy of events

[Cinabrium]

Their website defines them as "The American Chamber of Commerce of Peru (AmCham Peru) is an organization that represents Peruvian and foreign companies, advocates and promotes the free-market economy, and strengthens trade, investment and exchange between Peru and the United States within a framework of social responsibility, values and business ethics.

BTW, their website (IIS powered) stinks. They seem to be unable to correctly program ASP.

It is quite curious to know from their mission statement that one of their goals is 6. To promote the existence and development of free enterprise and competition. Why are they lobbying against free competition and on behalf of a convicted monopolist?

(Rating: -3, Get Out of Town)

[Anonymous Coward]

-1 poor taste
-1 misapprehending your audience
-1 not really funny

Re:My Pictures, "My foo"

[Technician]

MS is getting you primed for no peer to peer. The only content that is yours is what you bought from them, or took yourself from your camera, recorded live from your band, etc. Notice there is no "Bob's music, Sarah's music, etc. MIB II will not go into the "My Movies". Expect it to be PPV streamed with no non-DRM recording of any kind. It will be fully DRM locked as "My Movie" only after it is paid for. There is no right of first sale on it. Once it's yours, your only choices will be watch it of delete it. Nothing else will be an option.

Linux isn't really free either...

[geekee]

A unix administrator probably makes about $20000 a year more than a windows administrator. If he's administering 100 machines, that's $200 per machine per year. If Windows is $500 every three years or so, you save a little money using Windows overall. The moral of the story. Make Linux simpler to maintain. It costs businesses money to hire someone who knows you need to edit /etc/hosts to change a machines IP, etc.

Call me cynical: the software isn't even gratis

[leonbrooks]

It's not free, it's a loss-leader.

$550,000 (from the AP article) spread over 5,000 schools (Reuters article) in 4 years is $25 per school per year. Whoopee.

Reuters also mentions $10,000,000 for the gummint as a whole - still whoopee, that's around 30c a head for all of Peru, and little skin off Microsoft's nose since much of what's being donated costs peanuts to manufacture.

Full retail for Microsoft software in Latin America is criminal (read the comments from the Argentinos; and it's not so good even here in Oz: I can buy a new computer for AUD$600 (1.2GHz/128MB/40GB) but to add Windows XP and Office to it costs roughly AUD$400 and AUD$500 respectively). So make them `dirt-cheap' OEM versions and charge a miraculously low (for Peru) US$200 for the lot. Peru doesn't have much by way of anti-monopoly laws. For Peruvians to get access to their own gummint info, they'll need copies of this stuff; say one in ten eventually winds up with a computer and makes it Microsoft because they have to, equals roughly 3,000,000 sales, equals $600,000,000. Free, my ass.

On top of this, once Microsoft has that much control over Peru, you can bet they won't be able to resist abusing it (they never have in the past, why start now?), which implies another zero or two after leverage has been applied. Will Microsoft care if its market is starving and over 20% of the workforce unemployed? Hey, business is business...

Shall we discuss bugs and security flaws and the cost of `free' updates in a country which was bankrupt before these leeches got at it?

Another big question is, why haven't Microsoft been charged with dumping yet?

In summary, unformed, here's some `free' software, for which you'll eventually pay $2000-$20000 and give up most of your rights; are you still interested?

Re:Call me cynical: the software isn't even gratis

[rnturn]

No... call me cynical. Most of that donation will go to the schools where the politicians' kids go. And to a handful of rural schools where support for the president is weak. Wanna bet?

Like Nestle's free baby formula

[Anonymous Coward]

M$ appears to have stolen this strategy from Nestle who has its marketing representatives distribute free baby formula to new mothers in the third world. By the time the free samples have been used up, the mother is no longer able to breast feed her child -- she has to continue to buy the formula or the child will starve. (See http://www.emory.edu/ETHICS/news/2001/may/formula. html)
In a developing country like Peru, the M$ free software may be unreasonably expensive in the longer term. Peruvian legislators would be very sensible to heed Dr. Vinanueva's well reasoned argument for adopting Open Source/Free software for government use.

Simplicity is the key . . .

[himi]

mbox format isn't a standard, it's just a roughly compatible format that's simple and works well enough. That's it's attraction - simplicity.

That's also the big difference between MS file formats and Unix file formats: plain text versus binary, simple versus insanely complex. The fact that things tend to be standardised on the Unix side helps, but it's not entirely necessary.

himi

Re:$550,000 in software...

[mcjulio]

Every version of Office or any other software product has a very real cost associated with it in terms of the man-hours that went into it. Don't be so naive as to think that there is no dev work or testing going into these late versions of Office. The groups have a full or nearly full development schedules every product cycle, as all major Microsoft applications are expected to pivot with and support the latest company-wide initiative, in this case, .Net.

For every puny UI feature that you see and mock, there are 20 behind-the-scenes features not designed directly for end users.

Re:$550,000 in software...

[Cinabrium]

Sure, there is development work on it. But even assuming that Office takes a fair share of all M$ expenditure in R&D, which means assuming that there is no dead-end R&D (blatantly false assertion), cost of Office is 10 pct or less of average sales price, which BTW is less than standard street price. You can figure out the same conclusions by reading Micro$oft's financial statements.

Urgent update!!

[Cinabrium]

In my previous post, I said Except Mr. Hamilton's talkings, which were not recorded AFAIK, there is written evidence of all the facts stated above. But during his TV program on the night of July 16, Cesar Hildebrandt, one of the most respected (and feared) Peruvian journalists, showed and read a letter purportedly signed by U.S.Ambassador Hamilton, adressed to the President of the Congress.
The letter would have been sent in mid-June, five days after the drafting of the opinion in favor of the Bill by the Committee on Consumer Affairs of the Congress. In the excerpts Mr. Hildebrandt read, Mr. Hamilton states the "concerns" of the U.S. government about the proposed bill which, if passed, would favor "open source software" and harm "patented software". An aide-memoire from Microsoft Corp. is enclosed to the letter. Such aide-memoire repeats the well known (and better refuted) Microsoft's arguments against the Bill.
Hopefully, a transcript of the letter will be available soon. Video from Mr. Hildebrandt's program will be posted (probably today) in Peruvian Linux Users Group site.

Re:Urgent update!!

[shadowbearer]

Slashdotted? :)

Opening it in Mozilla/RH7.3 gives a blank page...

Sigh.

Shadowbearer

WTO?

[mattr]

This sounds like a blatant case of dumping, which is you know, selling below production cost.

Would there not be a clear case against Microsoft which could be made by Apple Peru, which presumably sells OS X? I'd much rather see Peru install OS X supercomputing racks and get every kid to open the hood and see unix. Then they can play with linux and there will be less resistance to linux integration.

The problem with Newspeak

[yerricde]

I thought the whole point of Newspeak and doublethink was so we wouldn't have so many words, and everything would make more sense.

The problem with Newspeak was that it was made impossible to express some ideas. Toki Pona, on the other hand, has only 120 words while retaining just about all the basic ideas that humanity needs.

Media Center - some points.

[unsung]

I wish that this Media Center would've gotten a little more attention here on Slashdot. This is actually a pretty interesting development for Microsoft. Incidentally, isn't this what everyone thought the XBox will evolve into? Those false rumours got a lot more attention than this article. Anyway, think of this product like this. Microsoft is finally moving to a more regulated hardware platform, much like Apple has done over their business model. Media Station won't be offered to any joe looking for an upgraded Windows OS. That solves some stability issues as well as limits customer support problems. They bundle Media Center with certain systems that are equipped with DVD player, TV Tuner(s), Sufficient HD, Processor, Audio, Networking, and IR receiver. They they offer services such as PVR, Movie and Audio players, etc. One large ramification of this is that it'll play any movie file. In other words, it works with File sharing programs!!!

Re:Media Center - some points.

[shadowbearer]

Yah, this is WebTV 5.0 :)

Whee! Hey, I just HAVE to HAVE one of those! (Jones's do, ya know)

SB

Trolling Howto

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps we should have a TROLLING HOWTO :)
Hey, some of us work hard at trolling...
Knocking down other people's ideas is so much funner than back in the day when people would attack us with swords for knocking down people and eating them.
Now I think I will take my drool bucket, and go work on my green tan...

Yea, you are right, there are alot of trolls on here..

I fold.

[leonbrooks]

Can't argue with that.

Link to US Ambassador letter

[chubaca]

Jpegs in spanish:

http://www.gnu.org.pe/lobbyusa-congreso.html

Translation
Lima, Peru
June 17 2002
Esteemed Sir,
I have the honor to address you in order to express our concern about recent proposals in the Congress to limit the Peruvian Goverment's adquisitions to only "open source" software or "free software" (Note: free as in freedom). I consider important to remark that our Goverment (USA) does not oppose the development of that type of software. In the contrary, we support a free market in which this software and patented software - both locally produced or foreign produced- can compete directly such as the best product can satisfy the need in the most appropiate way. If the patented software is excluded of goverments purchases, it would cause a serious effect in the growth of Peruvian software developers - a industry with the potential to create 15,000 new jobs in Peru. Therefore, that exclusion sends a confusing signal about investment policies to foreign corporations looking to expand business in Peru.
In that ground, I beg you to consider a law offering opportunities to a level playing field competition for both free software and patented software.

(To:) His Excellency Dr. Carlos Ferrero Costa
President of Congress

Attached [to this letter] there is a reference memo (ayuda memoria, literally memory helper, a reference document) of US corporation Microsoft, discussing some issues about open source software.
My best regards,
Mr.John R. Hamilton
Ambassador
cc. 2 other congress members.