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iVillage Renounces Pop-up Advertising
ceejayoz writes "iVillage.com, a popular women's portal, announced today that it is getting rid of pop-up advertising on its site after a survey of their users found 95% considered it the most annoying part of the Internet. Lets hope they can prove there are other, less annoying advertising models that work!"
must be the most annoying feature, yes indeed. oh PS: first post?
I've always hoped Apple would continue to do well, maybe we will se an iCity next.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Lets hope they can prove there are other, less annoying advertising models that work
Do popups work?
The administrators of women's websites really ARE smarter than the administrators of men's websites.
.
In the article, they didn't say they were getting rid of ALL pop up adds. Not only will they continue some regular pop ups, but also the pop up unders. While I find these to be slightly less annoying, because they don't steal focas, I consider them to be a pain in the butt also.
Yes there are two better ones...
1) Have such good product that people will want it regardless (Assumes you don't have competition)
Or 2) Have such a good product that word of mouth spreads and people buy it
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Maybe they could switch to the kind that kind of glide over what you're trying to read.
And pop-ups ARE a feasible form of advertising?
From the article:
"Instead, the company will focus on alternative ad formats, including variably sized standard ad units and pop-under ads, as well as ad placements in newsletters and member mailings."
So instead they're sending you physical junk-mail or having pop-unders. That's a big improvement.
Instead, the company will focus on alternative ad formats, including [...] pop-under ads
Not much of an improvement IMHO. I doubt most of that 95% of surveyed users make a distinction between the annoyance level of "pop-up" and "pop-under" ads.
Kiscica
Note in the fourth paragraph that they plan to keep using "pop-unders". It's like they answered the cluephone and then the line went dead.
As far as I'm concerned, this is just a publicity stunt (which worked, I'm afraid). If they really wanted to dump advertising which annoys the user by creating another window, then pop-unders would have went away as well.
Michael
Do you have ESP?
Instead, the company will focus on alternative ad formats, including variably sized standard ad units and pop-under ads I personally find 'pop-under' ads just as annoying. It's pretty much a pop-up that doesn't grab focus.
"iVillage, internet portal dedicated to women's issues, has filled for Chapter 11 after realizing that a business requires revenue to survive. "
according to the article, they're going to keep using "pop-under ads". So, is there really a difference between pop-up and pop-under?
In fact, managing windows in general is annoying. Popups are also a bad idea because users now have (at least for people using mozilla) the ability to block them easily.
I personally think the best compromise is the large box at the beginning of the story approach: you have to look at it, but since the article wraps around it, the feel is akin to reading a magazine page.
A well targetted add like that gets my attention and often a click-through.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
their users found 95% considered it the most annoying part of the Internet.
/. . Apperently they are all haning out at iVillage thinking its the internet. :-)
Man, no wonder there doesn't seem to be any women on
Is there any evidence that any Internet advertising works? As I type this I'm looking at a banner ad for NewsForge on Slashdot. OSDN advertising on OSDN. The popups of today are like the banners of two years ago. It seems like they should work, but they really don't.
I certainly hope others follow suit. ABCNews.com used to have a pop-up that would crash Internet Exploder, and then bring the rest of my system down with it. And I didn't like them before that...
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
Shouldn't everyone be using mozilla by now? The net is a much nicer place to hang out using this beautiful piece of software.
Thanks moz!
You know, that whole "women are smarter than men" thing. Take a deep breath guys. The workday is almost over.
Where does user surveys often appear? In pop-ups.
Look a monkey!
Did they enjoy the popups? Or maybe they were too busy trying to punch the monkey and so they accidentally clicked the wrong option. Or maybe they use Mozilla, and thus aren't bothered by popup ads.
Then again, perhaps that's just statistical error.
Better yet, does anyone have a pre-compiled list of ad servers for insertion into my Mozilla prefs? I've blocked a few ad sites in the weeks I've been using Mozilla, but I'm guessing someone has a list already...
Sneaking adds into what is considered content?
since they can't tell between pop-ups and pop-unders!
They could announce their website is giving away money, it will rain gold and world peace begins tomorrow but after I ate a couple hundered bucks because their management couldn't keep thier stock price above 2 cents after I bought it in the mid 40s (dollars that is), then I couldn't care what they do. Frankly the name should not be i Village but Villagei for Village Idiots.
Visit www.seriouslythough.com
Does anyone ever click through on an add (regardless of type or style) as a 'thank you' when they find a site they like, or usefull information?
assuming most advertising models reward for clicks...
People need to pay at least as much attention to ads on the Net as they do to TV and newspaper ads, but good Net ads should not be annoying.
My proposal: Net ads should be good sized -- maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of the screen area, and mostly text with an image or two. The content of the page should be partly above the ad and partly under it, so you have to scroll past it. The advertiser should be able to specify CSS info for the ad to make it unique. Ads should be informative and interesting. No Flash or Java, just use Web standards.
It might be slightly annoying, but at least you don't have to use your mouse to click on a tiny area to close a window. Just scroll the wheel or press PgDn. And you don't have to have an annoying animated GIF in the corner of your eye when you're reading an article!
This kind of ad *should* be sufficient to support good content. I suggested it to the LWN folks but I'm not sure if they went for it. The problem with LWN's ads right now is they're too easy to miss, and that's probably why they're not getting much ad income.
I have been using mozilla as my main browser for a long time now. Back in the early 0.9.x series, mozilla allowed for specific JavaScript functionality to be turned off, things that are responsible for pop-ups and other miscellaneous annoyances. Mozilla has kept my eyes from pop-ups for about a year. I only see pop-ups when I am forced to use IE and when that happens I shudder.
Pop-up ads were a really bad idea since day one, and the net effect is that many people mentally associate "browsing the web" with a very bad experience. The short term gains of pop-up (or under) ads is very likely for little gain when all your users either go elsewhere, or just give up on looking up information on the net altogether (it's already started happening: The net became the "new TV" for a lot of people, but after months of frustration with bad connections, bad software, and hostile sites, many people went back to other forms of entertainment).
It's quite astounding that standard old-fashion "brand building" advertisements are so uncommon on the net: Where are the Coca Cola, Tums, Maxipad, and food commercials that fill the television airwaves? None of these commercials expect me to click on them and buy the product now.
If I had to pick the #1 best-done Internet advertisement ever, I would say that it was during "You Don't Know Jack - The Webshow" quite a few years back (man, that was a good 4 or 5 years ago). That really was revolutionary, and it really stuck certain names in my mind (such as Sketchers. I'd never heard of them before YDKJTWS).
Interestingly enough, a pop-up window asking visitors if they are new to the site appeared to me.
Go figure.
-mz
This used to be the most annoying aspect of Internet browsing for me. But, since converting to Mozilla, it's a non-factor. No more popups!
To disable popups & other annoyances:
Edit->Preferences->Advanced->Scripts & Windows
de-select: Open Unrequested Windows, Move or Resize Windows, & Raise or Lower Windows
This feature, along with Tabbed browsing, are the web browser killer features.
I'm happy that so many websites use pop-up advertisements, because they are easily defeated. Mozilla and Opera, among other browsers, already have the ability to block Javascript pop-ups. If websites all switch to the "annoyingly huge banner ad" model or the "animation that takes up your entire screen" model, we'll actually have to look at them.
The ads on http://www.cbsmarketwatch.com are pretty good. You wait a second then you get the content. There is still too much movement on the page though, but nothing as anoying as a pop-up.
I hate pop ups. I want to be in control of my own system. I can cope quite easily with bannar ads though. Well placed (designed) bannar ads are going to work better than annoying pop ups every time.
-JB
"I love deadlines. I love the "whooshing" sound they make as they pass by." - Douglas Adams.
This leads me to this: assuming that very few people even bother to look at the ads, there must exist some portion that do, or else they wouldn't still be around. My idea would be for websites to have ONE (and only one) browser popup when you first enter their website (either through front page or links). This Browser can contain multiple ads, say 5-10. You are then free to peruse these at your leisure, or you can can close it down and not have to worry about any more popping up, at least while your webbrowser remains. This way, ads can still be shown, but only once, which is much less annoying.
Mozilla is only part of the solution. Mozilla+Junkbuster is the best combination. I don't see *any* ads.
See, I have to wonder about this shit. I have information pertaining to the involvement of ivillage with the FBI.
Don't make me post it, it will fuck your world up.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
iVillage, long known as an innovator of portal technology and the first portal to adopt a 'no pop-up ad' filed for bankruptcy today when it was discovered that by eliminating pop-up advertising removed what little ad revenue that was remaining. While 95% of the users felt pop-up's to be the most annoying part of the internet, 100% were annoyed when they ceased operations.
Designing bannar ads, or even traditional rectangular ads, should focus on drawing in the consumer with a need for that product.
In your face advertising is not going to work, because for every 10 potential clients, there will be a proportion that hate pop ads, and another proportion that will have pop up inhibiting software, and still others that already have a favourite vendor.
The internet is not a magazine, so ads have to be designed differently. If this is the revinue generation mechanism of a website, then there should be many hours of planning and design spent on advertisements.
-JB; adding thoughts to his own post with reckless abandon.
"I love deadlines. I love the "whooshing" sound they make as they pass by." - Douglas Adams.
Except that 50% of the pages render improperly and any time you need to go to a flash site is crashes. Yeah, it's *wunderbar*!
CNN and MSNBC both do a good job of that. I have recently stopped visiting nytimes.com entirely because of their pop ads.
if I see an ad that interests me I click on it. The problem is that most ads don't interest me. Who's fault is that? The advertisers seem to think it's mine. I don't accept that.
I hate popup ads (when I'm not using Mozilla ;-), but find pop-under's to be even more annoying. At least with a popup you can ALT+F4 or hit the destroy button as soon as it appears. With the pop-unders you normally have to minimise or move the main browser window, then close the ad-crap. Ok, so you don't HAVE to close it, but for some reason they just get to me - once I know there's an advert lurking under there, polluting my desktop I just HAVE to get rid of it... Maybe I need help...
I'm betting that the respondants to their poll actually meant both popup and popunder ads as one single annoyance, but it got lost somehow in the marketting dept...
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
more accurate would be that 95% of..IE..users find them annoying =)
viva mozilla!
thirsty*i^2
"Ya I finished that last week, it just doesn't work"
How do you feel about Pop-ups:
*I love them
*I hate them
*I like to be surprised
*Stealing my windows focus and _then_ having the nerve to try and sell me something is a dumb idea
*I just set my computer to ignore them so fire away
*If you could sell ad-busting software, but still make it generate a click on the ad, so the advertising company got false data - then you'd be onto something
*I like it when it just pops-up - it makes me feel attractive!
*I like it when CowboyNeal pops-up - other things irritate me.
Next thing you know, companies will realise that 'paying money' is something that customers hate the most, so they will stop charging for things and use creative accounting to make money.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Pop ups are dead! Long live Pop ups(with javascript)!
:(
I love mozilla!
Edit->Preferences->Advanced->Scripts & Plugins->Allow scripts to: unselect "Open unrequested windows"
It still doesnt block NYT ads though
Really, it's gynamite news, but this won't have a positive affect in my world.
--XY in SF
as annoying as the old html command:
blink
Perhaps iVillage should consider pop-under ads for push-up bras. The add could pop-under then later push its way up providing extra support for the advertisement. Of course, one would have to be careful that the ads didn't pop too hard as this might cause extreme discomfort.
To add extra fun, iVillage should also rename pop-under ads underwire ads. At least then the ads would be themed to fit the content of the site. Ads for bras would probably increase their strapping male readership in the elusive 12-16 year category!
If you are never moderated, do you really exist?
The offending browser instance was for commercial software of similar nature, but had the added annoyance of requiring a dialogue to be closed.
My usual solution: unplug the Cat5 cable from the Surfboard modem, swear a little, close the windows, and resume work :o).
db
Cig:
ôô
I don't care much for any type of advertising, but I'm willing to tolerate and accept it if its nonintrusive. A solitary banner ad at the top of the page is more or less expected at this point. I barely notice, and every once in a while I might even glance at it. A popup ad however annoys me before it even displays its contents. I'm already closing the window. I don't care what it says. I don't care how awesome the product might be. All I know is that its in the way. You lost me before you ever had a chance to tell me who you were or what you were about. In fact, blocking popups is easy. Certainly easier than blocking banner ads of multiple sizes. All I see of it is a waste of time. The internet newbies might pay attention for a little while before they figure it out. And the population of internet newbies is dwindling.
Targeted ads ala google make much more sense, especially with their low-key approach to it. First off, it will probably be for something I'm interested in, so even if its not in line for what I'm searching for, at least it won't annoy me. And secondly, I might actually click on it. I've clicked through on google's ads on several occasions, typically when I'm looking for prices on things. The advertising actually serves a somewhat useful purpose. Imagine that. The popup advertisers need to figure this out. Before the existance of those ads is the reason people stop visiting certain sites.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
I'm amazed at the resistance I get... I think it's time to start the 'campaign to disable javascript everywhere'. Javascript is EVIL. It's like a C++ compiler on your local machine, accessible to anyone who's sites you visit. The only thing they've done is remove those functions that outright allow damage to be done. But every day, another insecure javascript feature is found, just recently Internet Explorer and Opera were found vulnerable to the same javscript bug.
What does it take to convince people? If you disable javascript, you will not longer have popup ads, no more cross-site scripting vulnerabilities, no more security exploits (we've been lucky that nobody really attempts tp exploit them, we talk about windows boxes having exploits, but all machines are vulnerable to javascript), and more.
So please, disable javascript. You can still use almost all sites without it. It will make you more secure, and have a much happier browsing experience.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Lets hope they can prove there are other, less annoying advertising models that work!"
The only for of advertising I feel works is highly targeted ads, be it in print, tv, or online. That is why google makes money. (they do, right?) They can target ads to be things user actually may want to see, imagine that!
Make users see a big annoying ad. Let them remove that ad by letting them take a survey. Promise to never email them or sell their address, unless the user opts in to a specific thing. Highly target ads from then on, which are less in people's face, using the information gathered. That is my subscription for web site advertising success.
-Pete
Soccer Goal Plans
That means 5% of the people who visit iVillage don't think pop-up ads are the most annoying part of the internet. I want to know who those people are, I have a few more questions for them.
Install (name your linux distro here) with all of the packages included....that is SERIOUS cruft!!
I haven't had a popup in about a year when I'm using my own desktop. Occationally I browse temporarily from a coworkers and get the occational pop under, but I leave those there just to annoy them. I use galeon. Its nice. :)
Kim Brooks identifies the problem well in the article "Advertising: A Cry for Usability." Brooks points out that advertisers are trying too hard to get their message in front of the consumers, and in so doing, they turn off the consumers. She continues suggesting the best advertisements are those designed to help the consumer, enumerating targeted search results, e-mail list sponsorship, and sponsored default web bookmark lists as laudible forms of advertising. If only the advertisers would pay attention!
[BTW: You can get rid of those pesky X-10 ads for 30 days at a time by visiting their opt-out page which I found in their customer service FAQ.]
I hate call waitin`~+~~~
NO CARRIER
umm... first rule of business: business is all about sales.
if through the magic of online ordering they have the potential to convert a sale right now, why waste ad budget with branding type ads?
branding is only good on the sides of buildings (or no the tv) etc., when you can't sell direct from that location.
With AOL in their back pocket, it's interesting to see that their eyes wouldn't be blinded by something such as this--their users should be so used to popups, thinking that they just happened and that was one of the virtues or some integral function of the Internet.
But as CNN says, "Google denounced pop-up ads in January."
Weird, I don't remember popups on Google. Ever. I don't even remember graphic ads. Perhaps they're referring to Google's filtering of popups in their cache?
If they can be satisfied with this in other media, why not on the web? Note to whoever clued marketing in that banner ads could (gasp!) be ignored: you shouldn't have said that.
Face it: people will ignore ads, and making them harder to ignore just makes people angrier.
it's green.
In a shocking turn of events, it turns out that 99% of slashdotters do NOT like pop-up windows. I for one am baffled by this. Thank you to the 100 people who cared enough to let us know with their comments. Back to you Jim.
I'm even more of a reprobate. I use an old browser (NS3.04) by *preference*, with images AND javascript turned off.. what's amazing is that (barring Stupid Navigation Tricks) 90% of the web works BETTER this way than with a modern and fully-loaded browser!
About a year ago there was an article in Web Techniques magazine (now retitled New Architect) which opined that js should NEVER be used except for cosmetic effect. The article also noted that about 30% of users either have js off by choice, or are behind corporate firewalls that strip js.
That's a helluva lot of potential customers to blow off just because one's webmaster is in love with js. B&M stores figure they can't afford to offend more than 5%.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I know of a proven business model for a "women's site."... It's called Pr0n, and you don't need a Stanford MBA to develop it for you.
... has been around for some time now.
Hate me!
... ACs are the most annoying part of the Internet ;)
Watching Cowboy Bebop in my jammies, eating a bowl of Shreddies.
At least for lame xp users such as myself (half the time, please don't hurt me) I'd recommend opera+adsubtract. No ads whatsoever, no wrongly blocked content and no work trying to figure out JB's posix implementation (and just why in the world it keeps on blocking the NY Times image). It's commercial, but you know the drill.
Hell, I didn't even know they have ads on slashdot.
Imagine the Creator as a stand up commedian - and at once the world becomes explicable. -Mencken
Thus posted the AC:
:-D
if through the magic of online ordering they have the potential to convert a sale right now, why waste ad budget with branding type ads?
And thus I say in reply:
Duuuude, if I am out researching how the hell to get rid of an awful headache, YOU THINK I GIVE A RATS ARSE ABOUT BUYING SOME STUPID PRODUCT TO BE DELIVERED TO ME IN 2-6 WEEKS?
Uh, no.
If I am looking up information for a report, do you think I am really interested in purchasing online e-cards at $2.95 a pop? Uh, no, (plenty of free e-card providers still left around, why would I pay for one?)
Heck, I have NEVER bought ANYTHING from a pop up advertisement and neither has anybody that I know, and I make a ton of purchases online. A lot more then I do in real life.
Was my last stick of RAM from Micron? Yup. Can I remember of any Micron pop-up ads? Nope. I do remember them branding the living crud out of me though.
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
So instead they're sending you physical junk-mail or having pop-unders. That's a big improvement.
Fifty percent correct. As a former iVillage consultant, I can tell you that the newsletters and member mailings to which they refer are online-only. It isn't perfect, but it's a nice step forward.
ancarett, historian and zombie gamer
Is to NOT annoy me enough to cause me to recall your ads when I go to buy.
if you suddenly had a need for a tiny hidden camera... where would you go to buy it?
Ah, I'd start with uBid and search for "tiny hidden camera", but probably wind up at eBay. Failing that, I'd do a Google search for "tiny hidden camera" and be careful to avoid all the results that contain "X-10".
What, you don't expect me to actually _buy_ an X-10 camera, do you? After the millions of their annoying pop-ups that I've had to kill?
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
Well, I typed ivillage.com in my adress bar to see what the site was about...first thing that happens? A pop-up! "Are you new to this site...Yes No"
I guess that's like when salesmen keep telling you they aren't liars...
You can't take the sky from me...
While most people will admit that popups are an annoying "feature" of certain websites, it's proven that they actually are more effective than your average banners. Why? Because the majority of web surfers are just your average people who don't really gve a shit about this kind of thing. In fact, they probably welcome popups because hey, they're just "surfing" the Internet, and those popups are often quite amusing. I saw this one the other day that was this really nifty mini-game.
So, I think sites decide to drop popups will lose quite a bit of ad-generated revenue.
OMG Popunders don't work either.... no shit sherlock, all that says to me is what crappy 'new and amazing' ad format have you got ready for us next ? pop side ways with flash animation ?
- just-flood-his-vision-with-a-screen-full-of-advert s
.. enter popups/unders. .. what next ? flash animations ALL OVER every single part of your god damned screen ?
.. what next .just one big fuckin advert and no actual content ?
Pop-oh-well-what-the-hell-they-don't-want-content
(like what sex.com does) they won't mind.
of course, this all depends on your definition of 'don't work'. since when did ANYbody EVER like banner adverts ?
Seriously though, as soon as some big companies start publicly bitching about a particular sort of ad-based revenue, it's just so they can sneak in a new advertising format.
banners don't work!
popups/unders... don't work!
Flash-Overs.
'Flash-Overs don't work'
this is just crazy.
of men found iVillage to be more annoying than popup adds, with most prefering the days when the internet was just a bunch of guys exchanging porn and free software.
WHO fucking cares ?
make a real product worth selling or quit being a crappy business man. you want money or not ?
ACs: I ignore AC posts. Grow a set and log on.
Right, because having a slashdot account proves ones manliness.
Who cares if an AC is just as capable as someone with a User ID of having a coherent well thought out comment.
we can't make money selling nothing anymore !
cry baby cry, and sniffle hard, you'll need the skills you learned from crying and SNIFfling from when you hit the glue.
Actually, that's a known issue. It's because Junkbuster is getting old and not being very well maintained. It doesn't properly support HTTP/1.1, which Mozilla uses by default.
Please give Privoxy a try instead. It's based on the Junkbuster sources, but much enhanced, supports HTTP/1.1, and works beautifully with Mozilla (all versions). You can grab a fully-loaded blocklist from Stefan Waldherr as always.
Random and weird software I've written.
In reality, there aren't that many javascript exploits occuring these days. There are many very useful features of JavaScript. Sure, I could live without it, but my solution is to use Mozilla. By doing this I prevent sites from opening windows and doing other nasty things.
-- Solaris Central - http://w
I dont find pop-up adds annoying at all...
www.historykill.com
great program, one of the few add-ons I actually find useful enough to use past the trial time.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
[b]The administrators of women's websites really ARE smarter than the administrators of men's websites.[/b] thats the same flawed logic that makes it look like ghey Mac users are smarter than PC users. One good idea does not a genius make.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Try grabbing 1.1beta, or a recent build. They recently implemented an "Almost Standards Mode" that fixes a lot of those misrendering pages. This mode is bug for bug compatible with MSIE/Netscape.
Mozilla has also gotten much more stable. Try a recent build and be amazed...
Unfortunately, iVillage.com and millions of other websites still need to make money. They have staff. Expenses. They're not running a FishCam for fun, or blogging.
Yesterday I visited a page on a friend's computer with MSIE6 and was greeted with a large DHTML layer with an ad... that I couldn't close until it was through playing. This ad obscured the entire article I was trying to read, and really pissed me off. Thankfully, Mozilla's "don't allow popups" option works well enough to cut through most of the nonsense (popups - other kinda of Major Annoyances for me are thankfully still rare), but as we live in a market economy, the market will adapt.
if through the magic of online ordering they have the potential to convert a sale right now, why waste ad budget with branding type ads?
Because instant sales very rarely work: Most people shop for certain things within' a very tight window (for instance I think "Boy, I need a new pair of shoes" and shortly thereafter I have myself a new pair of shoes), and it's incredibly unlikely that the prospective client is looking for exactly what your popup is selling at the moment that you get your big chance. That's the whole point behind brand recognition and branding: The ad isn't only effective the moment it's shown, but is also effective days later when the customer is at the store looking for shoes, and that Sketchers brand really rings a bell...
BTW: Branding is the most common form of advertisement-> Newspapers, sides of buses, bus shelters, billboards, TV, magazines, etc.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
If we can not rid the Internet of popup ads, then the terrorists have won. (Er, really, is it fair to label SPAM-ers as Internet terrorists? I don't think anyone would mind, really, since NO ONE likes SPAM, except the flavorful meat variety. Between toasted slices of bread with melted cheese. Mmmm.
Lets hope they can prove there are other, less annoying advertising models that work!
I've found in most any form of advertising that a quality ad draws more attention than an obnoxious ad. Perhaps more companies should turn to real advertising agencies for their web banners, rather than letting their make-shift inhouse marketing departments hack away at some animated gifs.
~LoudMusic
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
Like, it takes a rocket scientist to figure this one out.
They'd do better to toss out all the damn ads, use a subscription model and maintain a high editorial standard and an interactive sense of community.
The Web really sucks as an advertising medium and the traditional ones suck just as badly since the inversion of the remote only the advertisers haven't noticed until now how close (NOT FAR) their advertising dollar goes.
Classify the web with XML-based generated HTML pages and some real search indexing, industry standard DTDs and maybe the web has a chance to be more that a tree falling in the forest (in the din of all the damn chain saws.)
We have to get past the days of 'Cowboy Content Creation" where any moron can put up a page and only add to the noise.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
After reading the article, I can say I would have done the same thing. Over the years I've learned to ignore banner ads, to the point I hardly notice them. Also, the banner used in the study resembled a fancy header, at a glance you may not think it's even linked. All the people tested were experienced internet users. What about those who are new to the internet, or have never used it? How different would their results be?
"Life exists in the universe only because the carbon atom possesses certain exceptional properties." -James Jeans
Heh. Honestly? I'm glad so many web-based advertisers have as little grasp of marketing as you do. Because the thing I hate the most about advertising is when I remember the brand, or when I'm at the grocery store and I find myself reaching for some brand of detergent over another because I recognize the logo on one. I hate feeling like I've been brainwashed, and effective advertising does it despite my best efforts. ClothesBeClean? WTF generic crap is that? Ah, but Tide. That's a name I trust... for some reason...
Thankfully, internet ads - popup or otherwise - leave absolutely no impression at all. Sure, I remember that there was an ad involving some damn monkey, but I can't remember what crappy company wanted me to punch it. Whatever they were selling -- I'm not buying. Their ad was totally ineffective, and that makes me happy.
Or to put it succinctly (not one of my strengths): Business is all about sales, and thus pop-up ads are bad business because they get less sales.
The enemies of Democracy are
We're too near the saturation point. Ads have gone from mildly to extremely annoying.
The ultimate conclusion of advertiser desperation will be Spam that trips you on the sidewalk and yells at you until you reach for your wallet.
I boycott all products in ads in ads now. If I can remember the product in an ad, I assume that its overpriced to pay for the ad and likely no good and buy the competition instead.
I hate pop-ups and resent having to deal (harshly) with them. I used to zap or mute TV ads. Then I threw out the set. There's nothing worth watching.
I flip past Ads in magazines (those few left that I bother to buy since they're nothing but BS and ads now anyway.) There's no friggin content left anymore.
The solution is for the eradication of unindexed, "Cowboy Content Creation" by forcing and enforcing XML-generated pages and industry standard DTDs for indexing.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Ok, I hear Mozilla kicks ass in this department, but what about a solution for IE? Some people are saying disable javascript. Does that mean disabling the just-in-time compiler under advanced options? If anyone uses a third-party program for dealing with pop-ups in IE I'd love to hear your suggestions.
...is being the one who has to pay for the content.
bart
Just because the bubble burst doesn't mean a lesson was learned.
Hi Jonathan.
Back in the day (think Navigator 3.02 timeframe) at Netscape, the "home page" marketing team though spawning a new window would be nifty. With their PRD in hand, they turned to an engineer named Jonathan Feinstein.
Jonathan might not have been the absolute first, but he certainly created the most visible pop-up example. Back then, Netscape had well over 50% market share and the vast majority of those users still used www.netscape.com as their home page. Millions of users were baffled by this new thing. And thousands of "web-designers" copied it.
So there you go. I'll buy him a beer if I ever see him again.
(NOTE: I warned him I'd do this years ago. I just forgot. PDF file of his evil intentions ;)
Fact: I work at a MAJOR news web site
Fact: My company held off from pop-ups/flash until only recently
Fact: My company has spent and continues to lose millions
Fact: Numbers still continue to grow.
Fact: Pop ups don't drive readers away. Or the very least, drive away fewer than the pop ups are worth.
We hate them as much as the average user. NO we hate them more. (I WORK on a website which displays pop ups. Think about it.) Preview: Popup. Copy edit: Popup. Check out other departments work: Pop up. Pop up. Pop up.
It's not the web sites that need to change. It's the advertisers. Popups=revenues as long as advertisers think they do.
meanwhile. Just the other day on cbs.marketwatch I ran across a REAL VIDEO Ad. Wow.
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
Wish i did tho.. seems like chimera / mozilla would kill anything that popped up. :D
;)
I've thought about expecting people to do that, seen sites where the webmaster is essentially begging people to do it, and I don't think I ever have.
er, except to feed starving kids..
I regulary browse the web site of a preeminent American newspaper, nicknamed the "Gray Lady" (until it recently added color pictures), which claims it contains "all the news that's fit to print".
Let's not mention its name at this Times, er time, so that no webmaster there googles on this. But it's in the city that been led by Fiorella LaGuardia, Ed Koch, Rudy Giuliani, and lately Michael Bloomberg.
But I never see pop-ups, or pop-unders, or most other ads when I browse there.
Why? I have Proxomitron. And so I don't get bothered by ads. You could get it too.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
funny! haha
Why is it that even though I'm reading slashdot with only high scoring comments displayed, then I always have to read about popup-blocking in Mozilla?
I mean, this feature were to be found in other browsers before Mozilla, and I'm sure those reading slashdot & using Mozilla have already found out how to disable the popup adds!
These high-rated comments are starting to get more annoying than the popup adds themselves... :-)
The exact feature is: "open unrequested windows"
It works most excellently for me. I recommend you give it a try.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
The ladies don't like their pop-ups. How does that affect me?
No sympathy from forced advertising
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
Server Error
This server has encountered an internal error which prevents it from fulfilling your request. The most likely cause is a misconfiguration. Please ask the administrator to look for messages in the server's error log
I could not justify my existence if I were a turkey farmer. Would I terminate myself? Undoubtably, yes.
another happy Privoxy user here. I use it with Opera on Linux (@ home) and W2k (@ work). Works flawlessly! The default 'filters' are pretty good and your own are easy to add aswell.
It is amazing how clean Yahoo looks without those moronic flashing ads. But one thing I havent' figured is how to block 'flash ads' (ads using Shockwave plugin!)
For those that can't tear themselves away from IE, and also don't want to run local proxy servers to strip "pop-up" code, you can use Internet Explorer's "Security Zones" to selectively enable JavaScript only on sites you authorise.
Start by making "Internet" and "Trusted Sites" have the same level ("Medium" is the default for Internet"). Then, in the "Internet" zone, turn off Active Scripting.
Any site that you want to allow JavaScript, add to your Trusted Sites. Voila!
PHB.
Call me weird, but I dig Google's text only advertising. I notice it, but it's unobtrusive enough to not instantly piss me off. I've even found incredible deals on some stuff from following the ad links.
Opera also allows you to kill pop-ups, or to force them into background. Another of its many excellent features.
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
Advertising works, if
1) it appeals to the viewer. One of the few ad banners I notice and remember is the SourceForge banner that looks like the Star Wars intro, because I like Star Wars. I'd look at a lot more banners if they had funny cartoons, because I like cartoons. Unfortunately most banners are boring as hell.
2) it's about a product interesting to the viewer. Why would I click on a banner ad for a car rental in California when I don't even live in the US? Advertising for products with a local audience on a global medium is pointless.
The first thing we do, let's kill all the advertisers.
You miss *very* little without javascript (and almost none of it worthwhile).
hawk, who can't think of anything he uses with javascript save some incompetent library web pages
If you declare a site to be trusted, depending on browser settings it may not only be able to run JS but also do stuff like run ActiveX controls and install software on your computer. Watch out! Making any sites trusted except for sites controlled by you or your company (for work computers) is a dangerous move.
People have *learned* that something meeting those criteria is an ad, and don't bother looking.
I don't block ads. I *do* block anything that blinks at me--the result being that I see very few ads.
hawk
At the moment, I'm forced into netscape because I can't get EXTERNAL to function properly in lynx any more (to launch new pages).
EXTERNAL:http:xterm -e lynx %s &:TRUE
*used* to launch a new lynx in its own xterm, but it no longer seems to do so.
hawk
nytimes.com has certainly added a lot of advertising in recent years. But it still works fine for me due to filtering & browser configuration. I'm using Opera with my Windows prefs set to Reject Pop-ups, plus Webwasher to strip out most banner ads. I actually have to turn on pop-ups from time to time, when some silly site designer requires popups for the proper functioning of the site, but whaddaya gonna do.
But one thing I havent' figured is how to block 'flash ads' (ads using Shockwave plugin!)
I just keep the plugin (/usr/lib/netscape/plugins/libflashplayer.so on my system) chmod'd 000, then chmod it back to 755 when I want to see a flash animation.
That isn't a great solution though, because it's a hassle. Mozilla needs an option to let you allow/disallow plugins by url/domain. So you could disable flash by default and then explicitly enable it on sites where you want to view the flash.
It takes an iVillage...
The trick involves first setting both "Internet" and "Trusted Zones" to the same security level - that normally associated with "Internet".
Actually, read 'The Tipping Point'. Its a book on behavior of people, and it ties in closely with advertising and marketing. Word of mouth AND having a good product (for the companies selling the product, not those trying to sell popups), are good and effective forms of advertisment.
You telling someone that Alienware computers are the best things have you have ever touched, and that linux rocks- does alot more for the products than banners and popups that say "BUY ALIENWARE NOW!!!" or "LINUX ROCKS YOUR BOX".
Seriously, were you drawn to Linux or slashdot because of a popup? Or was it because of talking to people and because they in all seriousness are awesome products and services?
Word of mouth is advertising, and it can be done actively. Giving employees the product for free (if it's highly visable or catchy), will get them to tell others about it and for others to see the benefits. Think Cable ISPs, when they started (and now), most of them gave their service free to their employees. Do you think that this lost them money? No, it gave them money, because all their friends saw how much it rocked their 56K modems, and got it ASAP. They didn't need popups, banner or spam to do it- an awesome product and hearing it from someone else is advertisment in itself
Now this doesn't make iVillage money, but why did they need such agressive advertising in the first place. I personally wouldn't serve though them anyway. I would probably go through someone that I would pay some sum of money a month to host, rather than having banners. In addition, if you are paying for it, they will probably support you better- ever tried to call Geocities about scripting problems on their server, or asking them if they would update to Perl 5.6?
Tibbon
tibbon.com
One off of Thinkgeek... an IP cam. :)
Exactly, I would NOT buy something that uses popups, over something that doesn't. I would rather buy from something that people have told me is good, not what a popup, popunder, or whatever screams at me.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Still waiting for the popups to appear...
Still waiting...
Tap, Tap, Tap, Tap
Ahh, screw it. I've got better things to do that wait for a popup window that will never come.
Seriously I never see popup, popunder or any other kind of windows I don't request under Mozilla. I have each of the following items unchecked:
- Open unrequested windows
- Open a link in a new window
- Move or resize existing windows
- Raise or lower windows
- Change status bar text.
The rest I leave as is because they are useful. I also have cookies and images blocked from most anyone who is likely to be ad related, including doubleclick and the like. Certain less offensive sites don't get blocked. (slashdot for one) I also block cookies from any site I do not have a direct business relationship or account with. (I can always unblock them later if I need to) End result is that I have a fast and largely annoyance free web experience.People looking for mystery novels will only wander into a "Victoria's Secret" at most once. If they see a "Elizabeth's Secret" in the mall directory the next week, they're not likely to search there (at least not for books :)
hawk
True, but even if you do online advertising like by selling ad like they do, they should do it more sanely- like Google does. It shouldn't be crazy, and when I look up 'Horses' I don't want to see popups of women with them... (like some sites do).
They could do more tasteful advertising. I personally leave sites that have popups and all that crap instantly, and find some nice open source place that doesn't resort to guerilla tactics of advertising
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Change Mozilla to use HTTP 1.0. It's in the preferences and it works great with that.
I'd love to have that article. About 100 copies, tightly rolled, to beat people over the head with.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
I've beaten many a js-enamoured webmaster about the head and shoulders with it. Tho usually if they require such a beating, they're so hardheaded it has no visible effect. :(
I can't find my copy anymore (lost among the boxes when I moved) but I believe it was in the July or Aug.2001 issue. BTW, if you're a webmaster or in a related profession, the magazine is free. Apply at http://www.submag.com/sub/wb?wp=newarc&pk=NAWE B2 It's gotten rather management-heavy since the changeover, but there's still usually one really worthwhile article.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Opera 6 on Linux passes this test too.
Oktay
---------------
Founder of the The Free Linux CD Project
Not really. Anybody can get a slashdot account.
More because you then have _some_ (small) degree of accountability for what you do. I am angry with all ACs because one outed my email address in the clear, for NO reason other than to piss me off (and he was probably a spammer, too). If he'd identified himself, I could be mad at him personally. But his name is "Anonymous Coward". Sorry. All will now suffer for the indescretion of an induhvidual.
And I definately do _not_ see ACs being as capable as registered users of having coherent or well thought out comments. Certainly, demunging my email address and posting it required very little serious thought. I will admit that there might be exceptions, and I assume that if one were to post a coherent or well thought out comment, it would get moderated up and I would see it, but I'll ignore it anyway because I'm still a bit pissed and just don't care. In the meantime I certainly don't want to see such scintillating remarks as: "F1rst p0$7, B17ch3$!", so I set my viewing threshold at +1.
Even the ACs themselves agree that they're annoying:But what do you care? You have an account, and use it. A lot. You're free to establish your own preferences and ignore whom you want, even me specifically if you want to put me in your enemy list. Name another online forum that will let you post without at least faking an identity. Rob allows this, but he also (thankfully) allows me to ignore the noise generated thereby.
I also find that an ordinary luser (posting at +1) is at least as capable as a karma whore (with a bonus) of having a coherent, well thought out comment. But I don't know what to do about that.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.