Adam Bresson Demonstrates Fair Use at DefCon

nigelc writes: "Adam Bresson showed how to make copies of copyright-protected videos in a speech at DefCon. To quote the article, 'I hope he's got a lawyer and that they talked to somebody'" From the article, it sounds like Bresson simply used a video conversion box to defeat MacroVision -- something my notorious criminal father has been doing for years.

Comments

I'm shocked

[A Cheese Danish]

From the article:

In his demonstration, Bresson used a device sold online for about $200 by United Kingdom-based Canopus. The box allows people to make copies of videocassettes and DVDs even if the video is locked with software to prevent such tampering.

Now Canopus has offices in the US. I figure that Bresson would probably not be prosecuted, basically cause there's no money involved. However, since Canopus has a branch in the US, I wouldn't be surprised if they were sued.

After all the best way to stop all of us "pirates" is to eliminate the tools we use.

Re:I'm shocked

[NanoGator]

"After all the best way to stop all of us "pirates" is to eliminate the tools we use."

I hope that was sarcastic, heh.

In all seriousness, the way to stop 'unauthorized copying' (I refuse to call it piracy because there are fair reasons to do it) is to find it why people want/need to do it.

"People are downloading movies off the web, maybe it's beacuse they don't want to pay $20 for a DVD. Maybe we should sell a $10 no-frills DVD."

"People are ripping DVD's and saving them to their computer. Maybe they're doing that so that they can keep their DVD's safe. We should make it easy for somebody to get a replacement DVD if it gets damaged or lost."

"People are swapping movies they've never seen before on-line. Maybe we should make it easier to 'preview' the movie to see if it's worth buying on DVD. How about cutting deals with HBO so they can get movies faster?"

Imagine if they were to use logic like that...

Re:I'm shocked

[Sivar]

This post should be moderated up.

Re:I'm shocked

[Jucius Maximus]

"Imagine if they were to use logic like that..."

Then they would fall back to the old dark ways of marketing, using obsolete reasoning likem "Find out what the customer wants and give it to them." Such anti-progress is unacceptable.

Re:I'm shocked

[borgasm]

I watch movies off the net for a variety of reasons:

Renting a movie implies driving off campus, finding a video store, renting the movie, and returning it in a timely fashion.
Problem 1: No car.
Problem 2: No video rental stores within 5 miles.

Purchasing DVD's is not out of the question, but buying more than a few a year stresses my budget. I did buy Oceans 11 and Lock Stock...Since I wore out my HD watching them on divx.
Problem 1: Students' incomes are quite low, and not continuous all year long.
Problem 2: I need to buy books. Textbooks are expensive.
Problem 3: 10 DVDs * $20 each = $200. 200 bucks is a large percentage (don't laugh) of my annual income.

Since the advent of CD's, I have only bought about 3. These CD's were compilations, since most artists don't have an entire CD of great songs. It's not that I enjoy downloading mp3s, but there is no way in hell i will pay $20 for a little plastic disc with 2 decent songs on it.
As mentioned in another comment, paying for a service to deliver high quality music to my desktop is not out of the question.

It needs to be always on, and able to stream at 50kb/sec.

Make it known that you can have any song, anywhere, anytime, and people will pay for this service. I know I would.

Availablity and price are the two things killing the music and movie industry today. Provide a low cost, easily accessable way to watch movies and listen to music, make it easier and faster than current P2P, and your industry will start raking in money.

Re:I'm shocked

[RollingThunder]

Purchasing DVD's is not out of the question, but buying more than a few a year stresses my budget. I did buy Oceans 11 and Lock Stock...Since I wore out my HD watching them on divx.
Problem 1: Students' incomes are quite low, and not continuous all year long.
Problem 2: I need to buy books. Textbooks are expensive.
Problem 3: 10 DVDs * $20 each = $200. 200 bucks is a large percentage (don't laugh) of my annual income.

Meta-Problem: you have no intrinsic right to these products. It doesn't matter that you can't afford to buy them or can afford to buy them. If you can't, you don't get them. Simple as that - or it should be.

You have a choice. Pay for the movies, or pay for the books - but don't pretend that being short on cash makes it OK to watch rips off the net. It's still wrong.

Re:I'm shocked

[NanoGator]

"What you dont seem to realize is that the MPAA/RIAA consider anything with a hard drive,
and a net connection to be of no other use then to pirate movies/music."

Actually, this exact thought is the basis of my post. If they examined why people copy stuff, as opposed to assuming it's for free content they need to pay for, they could increase their market share by providing what the consumer demands. Their perspective is twisted and they're turning their business into a war. They wouldn't consider hard-drives to be 'piracy' if they realized that the reason I have ripped DVD's on my computer is so that I can watch them on my CDROM-less laptop.

Re:I'm shocked

[TGK]

I for one wouldn't argue right and wrong. This is capitalism man! Want to talk about right and wrong there's a guy in Rome by the name of John Paul who you should meet.

Anyhow. It's like this. Prosecuting 19 year old kids file trading in their college dorm room isn't a great way to make money. It's a great way to get everyone to call you a jerk and never buy your stuff again.

It comes down to this. The people doing most of the file trading are the people they are trying to sell to. If you put these people in jail or sue them to peices they won't buy your product. So that's a bad idea.

What you want to do it find out why they feel the need to break the law. Once you know that you know something key about your target audiance.

I think an execelent point is made. I -=will not=- pay $23 for a DVD. Ever. No way. I'll buy it ten years later if I really have to have it... but never for $23. I don't download movies off of the internet or anything like that (56k is like that :-). If DVDs were 8 bucks a shot though, I'd buy a lot more than 3 of them right now. Overall the movie industry would get more of my money in a given year if that were the case.

That's what it boils down to. The buisness model is changing. More and more people are unwilling to shell out that kind of money for a DVD. There's still a sucker born every minute though.

Re:I'm shocked

[RollingThunder]

That's not what I was pointing out, though... arguing what is fair pricing, sure thing. Go right ahead.

However, the subset I quoted there pretty clearly indicated that he felt that simply because he didn't have much money, he was entitled to go ahead and commit copyright infringement.

That ain't right.

Re:I'm shocked

[God! Awful]

Problem 1: Students' incomes are quite low, and not continuous all year long.
Problem 2: I need to buy books. Textbooks are expensive.
Problem 3: 10 DVDs * $20 each = $200. 200 bucks is a large percentage (don't laugh) of my annual income.

$200 is a large percentage of your income? That's BS. It's a good thing you can play DVDs on your $5 computer. It's also lucky that you can leech free electricty from the building next to the cardboard box where you live. And you must be getting one hell of an education with the other $200.

Clearly $200 is only a large part of your disposable income. Someone (most likely your parents) is paying for your expensive education (unless you're stealing that too). Why don't you quit whining and ask them to buy you some DVDs for Christmas? And while you're at it, ask for a raise in your allowance.

-a

Re:I'm shocked

[Dyolf Knip]

Think of the -AA's as a particularly vicious loan agency. They charge ridiculous interest rates, are ruthless in their collections, and, unfortunately, are about the only game in town. However, in recent years, the development of matter transporters has made stealing from the vault a very simple prospect. Since they are not particularly popular, many people have taken to simply helping themselves. In response, the loaners have raised their interest rates even higher and told their collections agents to be extraordinarily brutal to their dwindling supply of legit customers.

Fact: Very few people really liked them before.
Fact: Recent events have only made this worse. There are now a lot of people who truly hate them.
Fact: People are stealing from them. Most people don't think of taking from them as 'right'. Morally neutral _at best_.
Fact: If things continue, the loaners will soon be out of business, either from becoming obsolete or suing their last customer.

Now, this loan agency has a choice. They can continue to try to hold the moral high ground and the pre-transporter status quo, but, short of taking over the town as a tightly run dictatorship, there's no way they will survive doing so. Or they can switch to a totally different system that is far more immune to theft. Something like an electronic cash-less system, perhaps.

It's all very well and good that the entertainment industry wants to continue using their old system of making money; it's the American Dream, after all. But they are now trying to deny the fact that it is now impossible to make information a scarce commodity. Things. Are. Different. And if they don't change their ways, they will go, screaming and kicking to the last, straight into oblivion.

A zillion P2P users may not be right, but neither can they simply be told to go to their rooms and behave themselves. As you said, "That ain't right", but it is also definitely beyond the -AA's power to stop.

Re:I'm shocked

[God! Awful]

A zillion P2P users may not be right, but neither can they simply be told to go to their rooms and behave themselves. As you said, "That ain't right", but it is also definitely beyond the -AA's power to stop.

Mob rule does not in itself justify mob rules. Thousands of black people felt that 3 cops beating on Rodney King was a good enough reason to loot stores in LA. Thousands of WTO protestors thought the issue of 3rd world debt relief was a good enough reason to loot stores in Seattle. Millions of Germans felt that excessive war reparations after WWI was a good enough reason to invade Poland, not to mention a few other details.

Think of the -AA's as a particularly vicious loan agency. They charge ridiculous interest rates, are ruthless in their collections, and, unfortunately, are about the only game in town. However, in recent years, the development of matter transporters has made stealing from the vault a very simple prospect.

And you know what else? The same Internet that made music piracy very efficient also makes it possible for musicians to sell their music online without signing to a label. This same Internet created a generation of dot-com millionaires with a conscience who could be out there right now founding ethical record labels. But how often do you hear these points raised, as opposed to "Music piracy is justified because I don't want to spend $20 for a CD. Oh yeah, and the artists are getting ripped off too."

-a

Re:I'm shocked

[TGK]

Ok, you need to go back to highschool.

Economics is regulated at its core by a thing called opportunity cost. By buying a DVD for $23 I give up say, a Big Mac Meal, three paper back novels, and roughly a day of internet access in cash.

Now then.... I can keep myself entertained a LOT longer with $23 by buying three novels, paying part of my ISP bill, and feeding myself than I can by buying a DVD.

If, however with that same $23 I could buy two and a half DVDs (or say... 3 DVDs for $27) I would be a great deal more interested in buying DVDs. Why? Because I wouldn't be giving up as much to get one. It's not a budget concern. I -=have=- the money to spend on DVDs if I want to... but there are more efficient uses of my money which keep me just as happy.

Re:I'm shocked

[RollingThunder]

Millions of Germans felt that excessive war reparations after WWI was a good enough reason to invade Poland, not to mention a few other details.

That has got to be the closest I've ever seen anyone pass to Godwin's Law without actually hitting it. Congrats! ;)

Re:I'm shocked

[God! Awful]

Well, it seemed relevant at the time. Honest.

-a

Re:I'm shocked

[Dyolf Knip]

None of the analogies you present offer the victim a way out. Someone in front of a looting mob or the leading edge of a Third Reich blitzkreig had better get the hell out of the way. Not much of an alternative.

Let's go with the almost-Godwin's Law scenario, since I think it might prove entertaining. In this case, the German people (P2P users) aren't invading Poland (the -AA's), but rather simply emigrating there en masse, willfully ignoring Poland's immigration control procedures, in order to do something that is basically harmless (though on these scales it definitely has effects) and enjoyable.

Now, Germany (the US government) is pretty much ambivalent about it at first. But Poland gets in such a fit that it starts yelling at Berlin to do something about the problem. They start coming up with all kinds of crazy schemes, like using German troops to patrol the Polish side of the border to keep people from crossing. The Polish government starts deporting anyone they find who might be German (catching a lot of genuine Poles in the process) across the border into German prisons. They start asking for Germany's permission to imprison without trial German citizens found in Poland, regardless of their business there. They get Germany to start closing down it's own borders everywhere, to outlaw the German equivalent of AAA on the grounds that easily accessible maps are helping people roam freely around Europe, and even go so far as to suggest requiring radio-controlled shock collars be required by law so nobody will be able to cross a border without permission. They start alienating their own citizenry. In short, they go crazy.

Now, all the while, the Polish government has been crying out about its national soveriegnty and right to control it's own borders and so forth. Which, I will admit, they have every right to do. But not once did they ever stop and think, "You know, maybe having a steady stream of intelligent and hardworking foreigners might just be a good idea. Rather than fighting it, maybe we could co-opt it and, in the process, make a shitload of money."

I agree, mob rule is a terrible thing. But this scenario has two key factors. One, the ability to commit the crime simply cannot be undone and two, the 'victim' cannot prove that harm is even being done. It just cannot be compared to wholesale violence.

Re:I'm shocked

[God! Awful]

I was not attempting to give analogies which mimicked the entire RIAA situation. (I have learned that it is usually pointless to argue by analogy on /.) I was merely pointing out that mob rule is not, in general, desirable. As far as analogies go, you cleverly picked the least applicable (as an analogy) of the three examples I gave. According to Godwin's law, the conversation should be over when we start discussing Nazis. However, after paying lip service to the Blitzkrieg, you managed to squirrel my example into something more closely resembling the US-Mexican border problem. BTW, as for what the Germans should do to enforce their border, I recommend a giant wall. :-)

But not once did they ever stop and think, "You know, maybe having a steady stream of intelligent and hardworking foreigners might just be a good idea. Rather than fighting it, maybe we could co-opt it and, in the process, make a shitload of money."

Right. I always love this point in the argument, where the poster suggests that the RIAA should embrace file sharing and make money, whether from selling a file sharing service, or by using the songs in tv commercials (which they already do), or by putting a CD under their pillow and accepting donations from the money fairy. Even if they could make a shitload (by your standards) of money, the fact is it would be a much smaller shitload than the shitload they are already accustomed to making. That's just not good business sense.

The RIAA debate really is my favorite recurring thread on /., if only for the sheer illogic of hearing the same people who tell you that the GPL is necessary to prevent big companies from "leeching" their work turn around and explain that anything that can be copied, should be copied. BTW, if it's analogies you want, one I've used before that (to my amazement) got modded up as +1 insightful is "That's what they tell you in prison. I'm going to anally rape you whether you like it or not, so you might as well sell your body for some cigarettes."

I agree, mob rule is a terrible thing.

Okay good, because I've had this debate with people who didn't.

But this scenario has two key factors. One, the ability to commit the crime simply cannot be undone

B.S. While it is not possible to perfectly eliminate the crime, you can dramatically reduce it by making it inconvenient.

and two, the 'victim' cannot prove that harm is even being done.

B.S. Harm *is* being done. That is obvious. This sounds like the argument that the defense attorneys always try to use in product liability lawsuits. E.g. 5000 people get cancer after using some product. Many people also use the product and don't get cancer, and of course many people just randomly get cancer. The lawyers try to claim that you can't prove that any specific individual got cancer from the product, but the fact is some of them obviously did. This is the kind of razzle-dazzle you always hear from file-sharing advocates who posit that for every CD they download for free, they end up buying a different CD from an artist they had never heard of before, all the while complaining that CDs are too expensive and they can't find any albums with more than 2 good songs. Sorry, but that fuzzy math is about as good as Worldcom's.

It just cannot be compared to wholesale violence.

Now let's try comparing it to looting. And don't give me that "it's not stealing because I'm not depriving anyone of property" crap.

I have to say that I feel amazingly coherent for 6:30 am. In fact, I think this was one of my best posts on the subject.

-a

Blah, which some knowhow you can get rid of it

[SkipToMyLou]

On some DVD players, you can disable Macrovision by means of uploading a new ROM into the player by burning it onto an ISO 9660 CD-R, or by hitting a secret key combination on the remote. It's mostly APEXes and Daewoos that let you do this; ironic that they are the cheapest yet most hackable DVD players. I have a cute little APEX I scored for $70 at Circuit City... that sucker plays DVDs, VCDs, SVCDs, CD-Rs, MP3s (!), and they kitchen sink. Most DVD players have a "Factory setting" menu that you can get to, but you need to know the secret code. Of course you'd never get goodies like this from the big boys (aka Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic).

Re:Blah, which some knowhow you can get rid of it

[mark_lybarger]

the "high quality" units are typically made by larger US companies who might have an interest in blocking these types of features.

Re:Blah, which some knowhow you can get rid of it

[BrookHarty]

My older APEX wont play some disney DVDs. The MP3 list is horrible. I picked up a newer APEX at wallmart for 70 bux, its ok, but you have to press the shift button everytime to move around on the onscreen menu. (and it displays Shift in bold green onscreen, ick!) Without the remote it hard to use. It also makes a "broken cd" noise like a computer cd-rom drive thats bad. Whack on the side, and it works for a few hours quitely.

Im not so sure if its worth the features, if I have to put up with a interface built by monkeys, and hardware thats flimsy.

Re:Blah, which some knowhow you can get rid of it

[Tom]

> Of course you'd never get goodies like this from the big boys
> (aka Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic).

what a surprise, given that the big players were part of the cartel that developed the whole CSS bullshit.

Re:Blah, which some knowhow you can get rid of it

[Baki]

Some of the big players also sell those players.
For example this site shows how to "hack" philips players.

Philips sold its (music) content business some years ago (Polygram); I think they saw coming the problems that the content providers would get in the digital age, and as a traditional HW vendor they didn't want to get into conflict with themselves.

Re:Blah, which some knowhow you can get rid of it

[swb]

They have trouble playing a ton of legit dvds..

I won't describe myself as a an "avid" DVD viewer, but I rent 1-2 typically new release Hollywood type DVDs every week and have never had a problem playing them in my Apex 3Disc model.

The only thing that somewhat approaches a "problem" has been some discs will "skip" once or twice during playback; the scene will freeze for 250 ms or so and then continue on. I've always attributed this to dust/scratches on the medium and not to software problems in the player.

As far as picture and sound quality goes, I'm probably a neophyte. My Apex is connected via S-Video to a 10 year old Sony Trinitron and the picture is way better than either of my VCRs, so good in fact that my wife even preferred it. I'm not doing surround sound with it, but the sound is much better than VHS, too. I found rental VHS tapes had non-usable stereo tracks about 30% of the time and damaged ones another 20% of the time, even on new releases I was sure had fewer than 20 playings.

The MP3 playback is pretty much laughable, though, although it is functional. Navigation is bad and there's no shuffle feature. Shuffle is even lacking on regular CDs. Again, it does all work and has worked since I got it, though.

Altogether I'd say it was a reasonable $150 investment 18 months ago; nothing else was available with MP3 then, and I doubt the MP3 features of other players are all that great anyway.

Re:Blah, which some knowhow you can get rid of it

[Spruitje]

You can, however, get a pretty damn good, home-theater worthy, modded pioneer player for around $250


Well, i bought a LG DVD 5084 which is regioncode free by default for around 159 euro.
And the shop also sold modified DVD players for around 40 euro more than the non-modified DVD players.
This was at mediamarkt in Amsterdam bijlmer.
Guess what, it isn't forbidden by Dutch law to sell regioncode free DVD players.
I have some regioncode 1 disc's which play without any problem at all.

Re:Blah, which some knowhow you can get rid of it

[DrVxD]

> Of course you'd never get goodies like this from the big boys (aka Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic).
Information point: My Toshiba SD-200E plays all of the above except MP3s (and kitchen sinks!).

Just use a "video cleaner"

[sgtsanity]

It cleans up the signal and incidentally also removes the copy protection. Remember kids, the RIAA says that violating fair use is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse.

Re:No one cares about VHS anymore anyway

[NanoGator]

"Its' like stealing from the city dump. It may be illegal but who's going to stop you."

Nobody, unless you're allergic to dogs.

Nothing new...

[levik]

So, we all knew you could do this. Just like you could point a camcorded at a movie screen, and just like you can hook up your stereo's line out to your sound card's line in to record DRM'ed music.

The question is, wether or not this satisfies fair use. If you can make a low-quality analog copy of a digital work, is the law not still guaranteeing you the right to use the work fairly in it's original - digital - format?

Re:Nothing new...

[mark_lybarger]

i think it does satisfy fair use, it just doesn't exercise the fullest extent of fair use as you mention. i really think the "content providers" have a right to do whatever they want to protect their works, but they also should have no recourse against any types of fair usage. including decss, anti-macrovision, whatever.

they don't have to make it easy for you to make a backup of your stuff, but they shouldn't take that right away altogether.

Re:Nothing new...

[levik]

My point was that they could attack things like DeCSS, and counter any of its fair use claims by pointing out that you can still get an analog verison (which may be slightly lower in quality, but should satisfy all your needs anyway - if all you are going to do is use it for things like criticism). Since you can grab the analog, they can claim that the fair use defense is meaningless, and invalid.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

Re:Nothing new...

[HamNRye]

EEEK! Just use an internal TV card with WinDVR or some other recording software. I'll admit that I have nbever tried to dub back to tape after this, but with compression from a straight screen capture, I can't tell how Muckrovision would survive...

Hammy

Re:Nothing new...

[someone247356]

Hmmm....

"Fair Use" covers use that IS NOT permitted by the copyright holder, but that the court considers FAIR.

If the copyright holder gives you a lower quality analog version to use as you see fit, that isn't "Fair Use" that's licensed use.

Making it illegal to use a work that you own (When you bought that CD-ROM/DVD you OWN that copy. You just don't hold the copyright to the work contained on it.) without the expressed permission of the copyright holder removes the possibility of "Fair Use" by definition.

What the movie studios are hoping is that if they make some concessions by licensing "some" of what was traditionally "Fair Use" they can get away with removing "Fair Use" entirely. Unfortunately, that removes the possibility for any new innovative/creative uses of copyrighted works. It also runs contrary to the delicate balancing act between copyright and the first amendment.

The studio's should be allowed to release their works in whatever form they want. They should NOT be able to make the act of viewing/accessing said work illegal. If they believe that a PARTICULAR use infringes their copyright, let them take the alleged infringer to court. "Fair Use" is a matter for the courts to decide on a case by case basis.

Seen in that light, the fact there attempt to "...counter any of its fair use claims by pointing out that you can still get an analog verison (which may be slightly lower in quality, but should satisfy all your needs anyway..." doesn't make any sense.

ANY restriction of your right to access/view/convert the form of the property that you have legally acquired should be resisted at ALL cost.

Copyright != ownership, copyright is a limited monopoly of certain limited functions, for a limited time, to benefit the public. (Reread the constitution of you don't agree.) Copyright holders can't possibly satisfy ALL of our needs in regard to the property we own in advance. Copyright holders don't OWN the CD-ROM I may have bought last week, nor do they own the DVD I might have bought, nor do they own any of the hundreds of books in my possession. I didn't license it I bought it. They HOLD the copyright period. Intellectual property isn't property. Copyright infringement isn't piracy.

The moment we buy into their warped sense of reality, and their loaded use of language we are forced to go on the defensive. It's hard to argue with facilitating robbery and making the internet a haven for thieves. It is much simpler, and far more accurate, to discuss the fact that their copyright may be infringed on a massive scale for a number of reasons. Remember these are the same people who claimed that people using their cassette tape decks where massively infringing their copyrights, that millions of Americans were "stealing their property" by taping broadcast television on their shinny new VCR's, and who are now claiming that using PVR's (Tivo, etc.) are "a bunch of thieves" for skipping commercials. Only the court can determine if a particular use isn't a "Fair Use". Only then can you be convicted of copyright infringement. Since so many court cases have gone against them, they want to preemptively prevent ALL unlicensed use of their copyrighted works technologically. Only by bypassing the court system can they be assured that NO unlicensed use will be declared a "Fair Use".

Make no mistake, the goal is nothing short of the complete elimination of "Fair Use".

Suprise!!!

[www.sorehands.com]

What?? The movie industry did not crumble? The US economy didn't completely collapse? The sky didn't fall? No darkness?

So, the MPAA lied about all these things happening if all copys were outlawed and anyone making a copy were not immediately jailed?

Re:Suprise!!!

[liquidsin]

Don't be so sure. It was raining frogs here this morning, and Lake Erie looks an awful lot like blood...

Re:Suprise!!!

[DragonMagic]

Then it must be Vulcan blood, because Lake Erie around Cleveland is green.

Re:Exactly...

[Angry White Guy]

Being innovative and unique gets you thrown in jail.

Big business does not want independant thinkers, just a mass of sheeple, and when one of those sheeple jump to a higher valence, Big Business and Government is waiting to smack him down.

Anyone can do this...

[k0ala]

Any RF Modulator strips MacroVision.. Always has Always Will kinda deal... Same boxes he shamed everyone into buying were picked up at RadioShack and Wal-Mart for less than 35$

Re:Anyone can do this...

[metatruk]

Not so. Macrovision works by pulsating the intensity of the video sync signal. This fluctuation in intensity fools the AGC circuit in the recieving deck causing the picture colors to become distorted, and brighter and dimmer. TVs do not contain this AGC circuit, and therefore, are unaffected by macrovision. A more detailed explanation can be found here: http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/LINK/F_MacroVision 1.html#MACROVISION_016

Re:Anyone can do this...

[parkrrrr]

This would be "informative" if it were true, but it's not. I use an RF modulator with my DVD player; I have to, because my TV is too old to have composite inputs. The way my system is wired, the output from the modulator goes into the input of my VCR. Surprise, surprise: if the VCR's tuner is on, I get the usual Macrovision effects (high saturation, low brightness) on the signal.

A little thought shows why this is: the Macrovision signal is just a very high-intensity band of very bright signal inserted just after the colorburst signal at the start of some video fields. It's completely in-band (if a little hot) so your modulator will be more than happy to add it to the modulated signal and pass it on down the chain.

Why spend $200?

[Quixote]

Why spend $200 on a box to make a copy of a DVD, when my sub-$100 DVD player will do it for free? Plus, it has no region coding either. Go Apex!

The tools we use...

[daemones]

...and we should make sure that all of the copy machines in the MPIAA officies are removed. They're obviously there for copying books anyway; if they want to do that they should have to do it by hand!
(and then we go after the pens)

We really do need a nuclear war to put all this in perspective.

Re:Huh

[BoyPlankton]

How is making copies of copyrighted videos fair use?

What if you're making a copy because you're worried that you are going to lose or damage the original? Fair use, right?

*** Breaking News ***

[metacosm]

Today, the father of Timothy of Slashdot fame was arrested when his son finally turned on him with a bold and public statement about his fathers criminal past and present.

Supportors of the DMCA where quoted as saying "We are very happy a public supporter of the DMCA has finally come forward from the slashdot crew movement"

:)

Re:*** Breaking News ***

[Dr. Awktagon]

((((when his son finally turned on him with a bold and public statement about his fathers criminal past and present.))))

Hey, shouldn't that be: .. a bold and italic statement .. ?

yuk yuk yuk

Re:*** Breaking News ***

[metacosm]

I swear the word "movement" typed itself.. sorry about that :)

I hope he gets charged with infringement...

[Temsi]

...and gets tried and aquitted in open court.

We very much need a test case with a judgment in favor of consumer rights.
We need a legal case to which we can point, when we're arguing what our rights really are...

Personally, I've used one of those anti-macrovision boxes (I got mine for $50) and it works great. I didn't create the technology, and I've only used it in the privacy of my own home, excercising my 'fair use' rights as a consumer, so I should probably be safe.

The methodical corporate destruction of consumer rights must be stopped.

MacroVision Defeating Hardware...?!?!

[philovivero]

I was at Best Buy a few days ago and found a device into which you plug any two audio/visual devices, and which stated that it would "even out erratic signal levels, enabling the VCR to get a clean image again."

It is a MacroVision-defeating hardware device, prepackaged, for $50 or so.

I was actually a bit astounded that someone hadn't come and stomped on the balls of this company.

For my money, though, it's VideoLan Client or nothing.

Re:MacroVision Defeating Hardware...?!?!

[plaa]

It is a MacroVision-defeating hardware device, prepackaged, for $50 or so.

I was actually a bit astounded that someone hadn't come and stomped on the balls of this company.

Well, I can't see how something like this could be illegal (or at least upheld in any court). I bet that nowhere on the package did they even mention Macrovision. It's just a thing that makes the signal clearer, which can have many legitimate uses. The same stuff is bound to be in any reasonably high-end video editing suite too.

AFAIK, Macrovision removers haven't been illegal at least until the DMCA. But does the DMCA outlaw them? They're not exactly digital...

History

[Skyshadow]

This brings to mind an interesting question:

Has there ever been an industry which has survived solely on the basis of legislation?

The recording and software industries suddenly find themselves without the natural protections of severely limited bandwidth or formats which discourage copying. As such, their business models (which have only really existed for the last few decades) seem dangerously out of date, especially on the music side. Video games and movies are still somewhat protected by large size, but with the proliferation of available bandwidth this seems only like a matter-of-time issue (although non-console video games and other computer software have some other outlets, the effectiveness of those recourses is also open to question).

So, it appears that their only tool to perpetuate their current business model will be legislation like the DMCA. Can anyone think of an industry where this survival-by-lawyers tactic has worked for more than a few years? Or are they destined to slide out of business as they know it?

Of course, we live in a historically litagous time where the law and lawyers have more power than ever, so maybe part prescindent isn't relevant. It seems entirely possible to me that they could stave off any sort of mass-advancement just be completely crushing those who oppose them (am I going to risk any real threat of a massive fine just to copy a few CD tracks?).

If the RIAA had owned the buggy industry in 1900, I think we'd all still be whipping our horses to get to work in the morning.

Re:History

[maxwell demon]

Has there ever been an industry which has survived solely on the basis of legislation?

Lawyers?

Re:History

[catfood]

Has there ever been an industry which has survived solely on the basis of legislation?

• "Title insurance"
• Workers' comp insurance
• Tax preparation

I'm sure you can think of more.

Re:History

[dillon_rinker]

The Post Office
Amtrak
Nuclear power
Remodeled houses in the inner city

These are all the recipients of heavy, heavy subsidies. USPS is now theoretically independent, but try putting a UPS or FedEx package into your mailbox.

Tobacco survives only because of its lawyers; they survive currently in a legislative environment hostile to them.

Re:History

[Tom]

> Has there ever been an industry which has survived solely on
> the basis of legislation?

yepp, the law industry.

see, most laws are drafted by lawyers ("law expert advisors to congress"), then litigated in front of a lawyer/judge panel by opposing/collaborating lawyers (attornies). a perfect closed system, works like charm.

Re:History

[jeffersonebell]

>> If the RIAA had owned the buggy industry in 1900, I think we'd all still be whipping our horses to get to work in the morning.

Or if a few (say 5 or so) large companies owned the automobile business, we'd still be driving to work in 2002...

Re:History

[Skyshadow]

Hm, no, there's a big difference between regulating structures to allow business to function and using regulation to prop up outmoded paradigms.

Re:History

[Fat Casper]

The Post Office
Amtrak
Nuclear power
Remodeled houses in the inner city
Tobacco

The USPS is financially independent; that's why it costs so damn much. Amtrak is being pushed in that direction, but it just costs too much to survive. These aren't industries that wouldn't survive without legislation, however. There are a lot of shipping companies that do quite well- you listed UPS and FedEx. The government doesn't keep them afloat. There are several rail lines that are doing well, too. Washington just wants to make sure that niche services like first class mail and passenger rail are universally available.

All the nuclear plants I can think of are owned by power companies. The government regulates the hell out of them but doesn't own them.

The remodeling industry does not survive because people are forced to get new kitchens every few years. Many cities that suck, however, are understandably interested in urban renewal.

Tobacco survives because they sell something people really want. Their lawyers are just there because of morons who whine when they get cancer, as if they didn't do it to themselves.

All of these industries are full of companies with good business models. Amtrak and the USPS would lose money without the support and/or protection they get, but they get it because Washington wants to make sure those services are provided.

None of these industries have failing business models and so need legislative protection. Washington doesn't want to insure that we continue to get crappy top 40, they just want to continue to get campaign contributions.

Re:History

[Jucius Maximus]

"Has there ever been an industry which has survived solely on the basis of legislation?"

This is kind of 'against the spirit' of what you're asking, but here is an example: The radar/laser detector industry.

Their lifeblood is the anti-speeding laws. Without such legislation, there would be no demand for radar/laser detectors because the police wouldn't be trying to clock you.

Re:History

[dpilot]

My dad was into conspiracy theory, but sometimes he was on the money with it.

Before WWII trolleys were more common in cities. After WWII with the surge in spending on cars, the auto industry came in and bought up all of the trolley infrastructure they could. Now we use cars and buses, and bigger cities have subways. I guess San Francisco still has trolleys, maybe a few others.

Re:History

[Fizzlewhiff]

Has there ever been an industry which has survived solely on the basis of legislation?

The dry cleaning industry is trying to do it now. Discount dry cleaners are hurting the smaller independently owned cleaners and they are banning together to try to stop the big chains from going in. It seems that the discount guys are charging the same for women's clothing as they do for men's and that has these smaller guys in an uproar.

But in the case of the dry cleaners they are trying to stay in business via legislation where the entertainment industry is just trying to keep from being ripped off. Its not like the RIAA or the MPAA is preventing independent artists from distributing their work and making money. They aren't doing this to stifle competition. Maybe long term if they get their way then it would be difficult for an independent artist to produce and sell work without their representation but I don't think that is their goal. Even today if an artist were to sell his own MP3's for $.50 a song, those songs if good would be all over the P2P networks and he'd be just as pissed as Hillary Rosen.

Re:History

[gvonk]

I would love to see some statistics showing that the USPS is pricey. I was under the impression that the service should actually cost more but that they have to get any rate hikes approved by congress or the treasury or something, and that's why they are so low.

Think about it. Would you carry something across the country for me for 37 cents?

I could be wrong here, but I think the USPS (letters, not packages) is very reasonably-priced.

Re:History

[nathanm]

Before WWII trolleys were more common in cities. After WWII with the surge in spending on cars, the auto industry came in and bought up all of the trolley infrastructure they could. Now we use cars and buses, and bigger cities have subways. I guess San Francisco still has trolleys, maybe a few others.

No kidding! Here in Minneapolis, there was a great streetcar system up until the early 1950s (not that I'd know, but I've read quite a bit about it). The mayor and city council were notoriously corrupt, with ties to organized crime. They got rid of the streetcar system and gave the resulting new road contracts to their cronies. One of the excuses they gave for getting rid of streetcars was the rising cost of maintenance and the trolleys were falling apart. Well, roads take quite a beating in these MN winters and require just as much, if not more maintenance. Also, our trolley cars were sold to areas that still had streetcars. It's a rumour that some of them are still running in San Francisco to this day.

Now we're spending close to $1 billion of yours and my tax money on an under-capacity, over-budget, light rail transit system on a route where it's not needed the most. That's progress.

Re:History

[OwnedByTwoCats]

Has there ever been an industry which has survived solely on the basis of legislation

Automobiles. You think the roads you drive on appear without legislation?

Airlines. You think the airports appear without legislation?

Re:History

[Fat Casper]

USPS actually does pretty well. A couple/three years ago they profited a billion dollars. Of course, that's with creative accounting- they had a big round of financing that they're still paying off, and email is really hurting them.

Where their real cost comes in is that they're a public service. A letter across town costs you just as much as a letter to the far tip of the Aleutians. They're not about to shut off the routes that cost too much to service.

If they streamlined, or recieved federal funds, we could probably still pay 20 cents an ounce- for local mail. So mail on high volume routes subsidises the sparse ones. 37 cents an ounce seems cheap, but my point was that USPS isn't government funded, so its prices are realistically high rather than artificially low.

Re:Huh

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, media wears out. Taco's already run through 3 copies of "Gaynal Assassins 4: Terror South of the Border" and doesn't make enough to buy a 4th

Re:VCDs

[Moridineas]

god that is so stupid. With the lack of any TRUE infringments on freedom (see Revolutionary War) todays generation has nothing better to do than whine about companies not including vcd support as evidence that the US is not free. WHAT BULL.

Don't buy their DVD player, how about that? no one's making you. You can buy one that supports playing vcd, they exist! Hell, you could even start your own company to supply such a product, because demand is clearly high, you could become rich by doing this too! Rich and in the moral highground, way to go !! Or you could start a petition, again, because vcd is so overwhelmingly popular. Or you could do the lazy crap thing to do--whine about it on slashdot.

Bruce Perens???

[philovivero]

Sorry for the second post, but the article sez:

In late July, HP convinced an employee to drop plans to demonstrate at the O'Reilly Open Source Convention how to break coding in DVD players that prevents them from being played outside a particular geographical region.

Are they referring to Bruce Perens? Why didn't I hear news of this cancellation if so?

What happened there?

Re:Bruce Perens???

[wiredog]

That's who they're referring to.

Re:Is this really fair use? (ie. Devils Advocate)

[Temsi]

Since the copyright laws specify you're paying for the CONTENT not the MEDIUM it is stored on, it makes perfect sense to ensure the content you've paid for will remain in your posession even if the storage medium fails for some reason.

You get another bag at the grocery store if the first bag rips on the way out, right? Or would you leave the groceries on the sidewalk? Of course not. You've already paid for them.
Now imagine if the store told you you'd have to pay for the groceries again in order to get a new bag.
Same thing as when a record store asks you to pay full price for a replacement cd.

Re:Is this really fair use? (ie. Devils Advocate)

[Skyshadow]

Of course If you leave them in a car they can melt... but we've been likening software and media to cars for as long as I've read /. (for liability, warranties, etc.) and if your car should somehow melt or be snapped in half, you don't get a free replacement. Part of owning something is taking care of it.

No, but if you get a scratch on your car, you can get it fixed without buying a whole new car.

Of course, the analogy is ridiculously flawed -- you can't easily compare 1s and 0s to large, resource and labor intensive objects like cars.

However, pretend the auto industry made money by designing cars and then licensing the right to build a single car based on that design (selling, of course, to people who have complete assembly lines in their sheds). People would use their own equipment to create the car based on the data provided.

If I wreck my car, shouldn't I be able to go build another? I bought a license for one Ford Focus, so as long as I'm not cranking out Foci for my whole family, I'm not taking any money out of the hands of Ford or it's designers. All I'm doing is reusing the data to create another instance of the product I've already licensed for my personal use.

So what

[shepd]

There is no law on the US books that outlaws defeating Macrovision.

Macrovision is in the analog domain, and the much touted copyright "protection" law is only in the digital domain, hence the name:

Digital Millenium Copyright Act.

So he broke no law. So who cares?

If it has Macrovision don't copy it.

[t0qer]

I would think a tape with macrovision means the manufacturer doesn't want you to copy their tape.
You want to copy it for backup purposes.

I think I see 3 problems here...

I think before any DMCA type stuff is added to any kind of media, the media producer needs to be held accountable for replacement. I've never seen this happen however as most of them simply tell you "Return this to your place of purchase"

Problem is, the place of purchase has no easy way of RMA'ing defective merchandise.
Wait a minute!
*light bulb*

I think I see an easy solution to all this. When you purchase something you should be able to anonymously register your product online (HINT HINT!) When it goes bad, you go online, login, report it bad and get a POPRMA# (place of purchase return merchandise authorization #)You take your bad merchandise back to the store with your POPRMA and the store validates the POPRMA and destroys the media.
Now that the media producer has a valid POPRMA, they just mail you a new tape.

Unfortunately, reality is record companies (major labels) are all bloodsucking thirsty vultures that would eat your grandparents. They would soon as rather write off the sale with no recourse than be held accountable for it.

Despite all the good the internet can do, greed, jealosy, and evil are still a part of the human collective. Despite how easy of an idea this may be to implement, these negative instincts are rooted in the core of many peoples brain. You get a lot of money, you want a lot more. Bob has big nose, you want one bigger.

So until mother terasa is running the Media moguls, we're all fucked.

Re:If it has Macrovision don't copy it.

[dryueh]

So until mother terasa is running the Media moguls, we're all fucked.

..and, since she's dead anyway, there's not much hope for us.

Is there?

Re:If it has Macrovision don't copy it.

[EMDischarge]

QUOTE:

I think before any DMCA type stuff is added to any kind of media, the media producer needs to be held accountable for replacement. I've never seen this happen however as most of them simply tell you "Return this to your place of purchase"

So here's a scenario for you: You buy the latest NSync album. Fair enough. But you REALLY hate NSync, right? So you "scratch" the media to render it useless. You take it back to the store for a replacement. Becuase you hate media companies so much you repeat this process ad nauseum.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Soon no more media company... and no more NSync!

Re:If it has Macrovision don't copy it.

[Trekologer]

This would never work because all of the recording and motion picture industries stances are based on contradictions and they are not likely to give those up.

Your purchase of a video or album gives you a license to the material. But if the media is damaged, you have no recoruse but to buy ANOTHER license to the SAME material.

The industries blow hot steam about copying and how much they lose to copying. Yet they collect a "royalty" on the sale of blank media, regardless of what the purcahser uses that media for. They receive payment for the sale of a product that they had absolutely NO connection to AT ALL. Its free money to them.

Hell, piracy is economically BETTER for the recording industry. If they sell fewer CDs and pay the artists LESS but make up the difference in the "tax" they collect on blank media sales.

Re:Huh

[monkeydo]

What if you're making a copy because you're worried that you are going to lose or damage the original? Fair use, right?

If the original is a computer program, right. If the original is a video tape, wrong. From USC, Title 17, Chapter 1:

Sec. 107. - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include

Nothing in there about backup copies.

From Section 117:

Sec. 117. - Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs

(a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy. - Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:

(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or

(2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.

So the privilege of making backup copies only applies to computer programs (and possibly rare printed material in certain circumstances) but not videos, CDs, DVDs, etc. It would appear that you and Timothy are both mistaken.

Re:Is this really fair use? (ie. Devils Advocate)

[suicidal]

You obviously DON'T have a 2 year old son that likes to "HACK" his way into the DVD cabinet....

Further, you purchased a movie. The DVD/VCR tape is simply the medium upon which the movie is stored. A vehicle is a very poor analogy.

I would personally LOVE to be able to copy my DVD's and keep ONLY the copies accessible. The original Master copies would only come out when needed to re-copy a destroyed backup/use copy.

The point is not whether YOU have a need/want to copy your DVD's... The point is that we the people (in the U.S. at least), are losing our established rights to corporate greed steering a corrupt government, unchallenged by an apathetic populace.

Re:VCDs

[Moridineas]

Actually, it's instructive to compare the tax rates that angered the colonists with our tremendously higher taxes today.

I hate taxes ok, but that's not the issue--the issue is taxation without representation. We are represented, feel free to vote for a candidate who DOESN'T want to raise taxes.

And look at the War on (some) Drugs and the Eternal War on Terror for many examples of infringements on freedom.

If you break the law, you're going to get in trouble, I have no problem with this.

Re:Is this really fair use? (ie. Devils Advocate)

[Fat Casper]

You made a few interesting points.

...dvd's are pretty resistant to superficial damage anyways, and can usually be fixed with a 2-dollar kit.
Have you ever rented a DVD that's more than a month or so old? It's not pretty.

...if your car should somehow melt or be snapped in half, you don't get a free replacement. Part of owning something is taking care of it.
Part of taking care of data is backing it up. Nobody's asking for each DVD to come with 5 free "backup" copies of the disc here, just to keep the right to back up data.

...assuming that that FBI warning makes an exception for personal copying (Newsflash: It Doesn't) people will still be using this far away for illicit purposes.
What does the FBI warning have to do with my legal rights? What does someone else's violation of the law have to do with my legal rights?

The solution to rampant lawlessness is to capture and punish the lawbreakers, not to extend the law to make everything illegal. Even John Ashcroft can't arrest everybody. Especially if they're breaking the law by exercising their legal rights. This is going to take a long time, but the courts are going to throw out a lot these laws. Until then, I guess a lot of us will just have to be "criminals."

Re:Huh

[FatHogByTheAss]

What if you're making a copy because you're worried that you are going to lose or damage the original? Fair use, right?

Well, no. "Fair use" is a clearly defined legal term. Making copies of a work for your own private use isn't one of them. It's not against the law (says the S.C.), but it isn't fair use, either.

Dazzle Hollywood DV Bridge

[BMonger]

Don't sue me but.... I bought the Dazzle Hollywood DV Bridge a few months back and well, I haven't had a single problem with Macrovision. I actually bought it to put some old home movies onto my flat-panel iMac. Then I decided to put some of my out of print VHS movies onto DVD. I don't know if they have macrovision or not but they worked fine. Then I remembered about Macrovision and attempted to copy the DVD "Go" to VHS from DVD player to VCR. That didn't work due to Macrovision but when I used the DV Bridge as a pass-through it worked just fine.

This is a rather nice side effect so now if I ever get motivated I can make some music videos or something for fun.

Re:Huh

[Eccles]

Couldn't you lend him one of yours?

Good!

[interstellar_donkey]

Defeting macrovision is nothing new, but the more the relitive ease of doing so is brought out into the open, perhaps the less these 'anti-copying' schemes will appear.

I had my worst experience with macrovision with an old TV with a VCR built in. The VCR broke, and I bought a new stand alone unit thinking I'd play it through the TV. But, it went through the TVs circuits and of course, the picture was screwed up.

I ended up buying a new TV. Now why should I be punished by this system for watching tapes that I OWN, that I'm not copying, and that I'm doing nothing illegal with?

I hope these people stop treating consumers like criminals.

...and gets tried and acquitted in open court.

[dpilot]

IMHO, it's just as valuable if he's found guilty. Remember, there are two ways to change a law. One is through getting it circumscribed or thrown out in court. The other is getting it repealed through public outrage.

I don't want to wish the guy into jail, but perhaps widespread public outrage would be better than mere circumscription of the DMCA. With an acquittal no doubt fair use would be improved a little, but only to the extent of defeating Macrovision for your own non-infringing purposes in your own home. Region coding and Track-0 on DVDs would remain untouched. Security disclosure would remain a crime.

Re:Is this really fair use? (ie. Devils Advocate)

[Daemonik]

Of course If you leave them in a car they can melt... but we've been likening software and media to cars for as long as I've read /. (for liability, warranties, etc.) and if your car should somehow melt or be snapped in half, you don't get a free replacement. Part of owning something is taking care of it.

Ah, but there is a significant difference in how a car is viewed and how a CD/DVD is viewed legally. When I purchase a car, it is mine. I can modify it in any fashion that I choose, I can legally cut bits of it off and attach them to other cars or build a completely new car from various bits of other cars.

When you buy a CD/DVD then you are buying the 'right' to listen/view the material within, with the understanding that you do not own that material, only the right to experience it. That is why most people feel that if the container of said media becomes damaged for any reason, it should be replaced at no fee to the consumer.

Now, let's look at the rest of your statement:

there really isn't any good reason why we need to be able to copy DVDs. Is there?

DVD's have a limited shelf life, just as any other media. Being able to make an archival copy of my DVD's ensures that I can enjoy them for as long as I own them.

DVD's are susceptible to damage. So again, haveing a copy ensures that I can easily replace a damaged disk at no additional cost to myself.

DVD's are not the final storage media that will be presented to consumers. Why should I have to buy a huge movie library over and over again simply because the industry changes the format that they will support?

Then there's the idea of cultural archival. Consider that many classic movies have been altered in various ways by the studios. Guns removed from ET, editing changes made to Star Wars, etc. In 30 years, if you want to get a copy of the original version of these movies, you won't be able to purchase them from the studios.

So yes, the capability to copy a DVD is not only necessary, but vital. Casual consumer piracy is not the threat that industry pundits would have us believe it to be, nor should it be confused with concerted piracy.

Video Stabalizer

[j_kenpo]

Ive used the device for the past fews years to defeat Macrovision, and for legitimate purposes. The tool itself is not illegal. Since the TV in my room doesnt have composite or component inputs on it, I have to run it through my VCR. When I first got my DVD player, I noticed my video would fritz out, so I put a stabalizer in line with it to eliminate the problem. Now I can watch DVD's no problem, and what do you know, its not being used illegally. I doubt the company could be sued, since this kind of technology has legitimate purposes, such as Time Base Correctors in video decks and editing stations. So I doubt the manufacturers of the tools would be sued... but in this day and age of MPAA payed lawyers, I wouldnt doubt it, but theyd be shooting themselves in the foot when their editing decks no longer have SMTPE sync capabilities.

Re:Is this really fair use? (ie. Devils Advocate)

[swillden]

Since the copyright laws specify you're paying for the CONTENT not the MEDIUM it is stored on

Where? I must have missed that part of title 17.

I do think that is the intent, but I don't see it *specified* in the law as such.

Re:VCDs

[Moridineas]

Yeah, you're right, it was just the first thing off the top of my head. Thanks for the superior examples.

Without this stuff, my DVD would be useless...

[Rahga]

Both TVs in my houses are aging units that only take input from an AV cable. I need to either use an old VCR that can withstand that cheap protection crap, or what I'm using now, a 5-switch RF modulator/SVideo/RCA plug box.

Fsck that protection crap. If I didn't think it was futile, I'd never by DVDs out of protest....

Re:VCDs

[Moridineas]

Regardless of whether the law is just? Besides, you don't have to break any laws to suffer. 80% of citizens whose property is confiscated via asset forfeiture are never even charged with crimes.

What unjust laws are you referring to (note: I'm not denying that there are unjust laws, I just am unsure which you are referring to). I have no problems with drugs being illegal or terrorism being illegal.

as for your 80% stat--do you have any way of backing that up? I'd be really interested to know if that is true.

Re:Hm, yes.

[Skyshadow]

I'll be waiting with my/your .45

BTW, I meant RF cable in TV, not AV cable. *NT*

[Rahga]

*NT* means no text.

Ugh.

Why do I even bother with slashdot anymore, mistakes like that are just too hard to correct.

Re:VCDs

[Moridineas]

First let me thank you for calling me "moroneas," I really appreciate your dedication to an actual adult discussion. Secondly, you now admit that it's only highend dvd players that don't support vcd (I'm not even sure this is true)? So as evidence that America isn't free you're using the fact that you can't buy a highend combination dvd/vcd player. give me a break...

Re:VCDs

[Moridineas]

Incidentally....

http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php

It seems that almost all the players there support VCD...what's the problem?

Re:Huh

[BoyPlankton]

So the privilege of making backup copies only applies to computer programs (and possibly rare printed material in certain circumstances) but not videos, CDs, DVDs, etc. It would appear that you and Timothy are both mistaken.

Copyright law is intentionally very vague, and you neglected to include the most important two thirds of that statute.

There are four factors that have to be investigated in order to determine wether or not it is copyright infringement, or wether it is covered by fair use. It's up to a judge to weigh these four factors and make the decision as to wether or the use infringes on the copyright owner. However, in the situation above, it should be noted that the use is non-commercial, and in the case of the DEFCON presentation it could be argued that it was for educational purposes, and is likely to have a neglible effect on the market. Therefore it would likely pass two of the four factors, and in my reading of the findings in Sony vs. Universal City Studios, it's my opinion that those two factors are the ones that the Justices weighed most highly in reaching their conclusions.

Re:Is this really fair use? (ie. Devils Advocate)

[mpe]

If you signed a lease for your Britney Spears CD then I've got a bridge in New York that I'd like to lease to you.

In the UK DVDs are often advertised with the slogan "yours to own". Maybe they don't do that in the US or maybe they don't have laws about truth in advertising :)

Fair Use? DMCA practical vs expressive Re:Huh

[einhverfr]

IANAL,. but I read judicial opinions ;)

The 2600 case (don't remember the full case name-- who was the plaintiff?) hinged to a very large extent on the limits of free speach, which is absolute insofar as that speach is of political, scientific, or artistic value, but does not exnent necessarily to practical components of a speach. In other words, if I say that the current president of the US is a terrorist and a broke into 1000 classified computers in Australia, this is in theory protected speach (has political value). But if I say "here is how you too can circumvent copy protection," the how-to aspects may not be protected.

That being said, wearing a T-Shirt with the de-css source code would probably be protected as a political statement, IMHO.

What I am saying is that if they decided to prosecute the fellow, they would not have to rely on copyright infringement to do so. Fair use in this case is a non-issue.

Re:Is this really fair use? (ie. Devils Advocate)

[geekoid]

there is nothing like a big jelly finger print on your childs favorite rugrat video to really understand why we need back-ups!

Or walking into the room to see all there DVDs scatterd all over while they dance on them... sigh,

blatantly bad logic

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

So, by your logic it's ok for me to take any research papers you might create and use them as my own? I mean, I'm not hurting anyone and it's just intellectual property...

he's not copying someone's MP3s and trying to pass them off as his own recordings. or are you suggesting he is opposed to having people download copies of his research papers and read them?

Re:Is this really fair use? (ie. Devils Advocate)

[Happy Monkey]

What? You can go get free bags as often as you want. Of course, some stores may charge a nominal fee for new bags. You can also buy a heavy duty reusable bag if you wish.

The view from the UK

[DavidAtkinson]

The only place that is really suffering from region locking is the US. Over here it's not something that hits the news, it's something that everyone does every day.

Over here almost all DVD players can bypass region encoding, and a many can bypass macrovision.

There are dozens of websites with details of how to disable region codes. Most just need a particular sequence of keypresses on the remote. You would have to try very hard to buy a player that couldn't be made multi-region.

We are region-2, but I would say that 50% to 75% of the DVD's in most peoples collections here are region-1. Even British-made films are released as region-1 only because region-2 is too small a market to make it worthwhile.

Region-2 is shrivelling to nothing, and I'd be suprised if the other regions were different.

Re:VCDs

[bnenning]

I have no problems with drugs being illegal or terrorism being illegal.

I have a problem with laws against the private use of relatively harmless substances such as marijuana, especially when enforcement of such laws reduces civil liberties and privacy for all citizens. (No, I don't use pot myself.) And I hope you can agree that the DMCA and Disney Copyright Extension Act are blatant abuses of government power.

as for your 80% stat--do you have any way of backing that up?

A quick google search came up with this and this.

Re:VCDs

[Moridineas]

Do you have any problem with cheesburgers being illegal too? How about with Slashdot?
Just because you "have no problem" with something doesn't mean that something is not contrary to the Constitution and rights acknowledged in it.

You don't get my point--the post was about "unjust" laws, and I was saying that I find none of the mentioned laws unjust in the slightest--or unconstitutional.

Re:VCDs

[Moridineas]

I have a problem with laws against the private use of relatively harmless substances such as marijuana, especially when enforcement of such laws reduces civil liberties and privacy for all citizens. (No, I don't use pot myself.) And I hope you can agree that the DMCA and Disney Copyright Extension Act are blatant abuses of government power.

Pots just not a big deal to me. I've never seen it do good, and have seen many friends crash when getting into smoking and all, so I say good that it's illegal. As for DMCA + et al, I think they go too far, and yet, I think the artists and others have a right to protect their work from being stolen / whatever you want to call it on napster like systems, which is what a DMCA type law should handle.

Thanks for the links.

Re:Patents

[shepd]

>Basically no macrovision defeaters are openly sold, but not because it would violate copyright law.

This isn't true.

A Time Base Corrector defeats ALL forms of Macrovision and is still legal for sale in the USA, not to mention created far before Macrovision was a glint in its maker's eye. If it weren't I know a LOT of broadcast studios that would be EXTREMELY angry right now.

Re:VCDs

[Moridineas]

I like to think that there's a difference between revolution for representative governance and smoking up behind the schoolyard.

Breakin' the law

[tkrotchko]

"If you break the law, you're going to get in trouble, I have no problem with this."

Yeah...they should've thrown the book at Rosa Parks breakin' the law like that.

Who did she think she was?

Ahhh... Lawyers...

[Pig Hogger]

From the article...

After Bresson's talk, ElcomSoft defense attorney Joseph Burton gave a talk about the ElcomSoft case at DefCon, which ended on Sunday.

"I hope he's got a lawyer and that they talked to somebody," Burton said of Bresson.

Defense lawyers are still lawyers... Hence the shameless plug...

Re:VCDs

[bnenning]

I've never seen it do good, and have seen many friends crash when getting into smoking and all, so I say good that it's illegal.

And thousands of people die every year from alcohol, but history has taught us that trying to ban it created more problems than it solved.

I think the artists and others have a right to protect their work from being stolen / whatever you want to call it on napster like systems, which is what a DMCA type law should handle.

Except that piracy was already illegal before the DMCA. The DMCA isn't about preventing piracy, it's about controlling use. It allows publishers to eliminate fair use by slapping any technological access controls on their products, which you are then forbidden to circumvent even if your intent is not to violate copyright.

Re:VCDs

[Archfeld]

LOL there was a huge amount of voter say in the last presidential election. 119,000 disqualified voters, an election decided by the courts ? I'd say we are approaching the point of taxation without 'adequate' representation.

USA, government by the hypocrites, for the idiots.

But the RIAA make the rules

[NewtonsLaw]

The shopping bag analogy is a good one -- except for one thing:

Under copyright law, the IP owner is granting you a license. The terms of that license are entirely up to the IP owner to dictate.

You, of course, always have the option of saying "no thanks" and walking away -- but if you buy the product then you're bound by the license that comes with it.

This means that if the license is tied to the media then loss or damage to the media represents loss or damage to the goods and you're not entitled to any replacement (unless the loss or damage was due to a manufacturing defect).

However, just because they can dictate such stupid terms is no reason why any IP owner should do so.

If the RIAA just used some commonsense, they'd realise that by licensing the content and not the media itself they'd soothe a lot of ruffled brows and regain some moral high-ground.

Imagine how much positive PR they'd get if they announced that any original disk that was damaged would be replaced for the price of the media plus handling ($1-$2). This move would also immediately negate the common justification that copying is necessary to produce "backup" copies of valuable CDs wouldn't it?

No longer would the RIAA have to accept that copying a commercial music recording is justifiable on the grounds that it's simply to protect the original investment.

Of course the lard-asses at the RIAA are trying to protect their goose from being stolen by holding its neck as tight as they can - and in the process they're killing it.

If they had half a brain they'd regain some of the moral high-ground by adopting a licensing system similar to that used by many software developers which allows for media-replacement and makes it clear that you're buying a single-user right to use the content.

Re:But the RIAA make the rules

[Wavicle]

That's the whole point of copyright laws, the exclusive right to make a copy of something.

No, The whole point of copyright laws is the exclusive right to make a copy of something for commercial purposes. The Supreme Court and case law has carved out that we may make copies for our own personal use, or archival purposes.

Re:Layer switch

[swb]

That "skip" that you have during movies (should only be once per side) is probably a layer switch.

It only happens on every 5th movie or less, but I would estimate that of the movies that do skip, they typically skip more than once. We had one movie that skipped easily 20 times, with pauses often up to .5 second.

I also wondered if maybe there wasn't some goofy branching going on and the buffer got exhausted as the player had to seek another part of the disc. Overall though I just assume its beat-on discs. The keepcases my video store uses often cause discs to fly from the case when the case works "right" or require you to grab the disc surface to get it out when it doesn't. This does not bode well for long term playability.

Overall I think I got a good deal. Mp3 is great for parties (two CDs in the changer plays longer than I can party), its played every movie I've put in it. I feel a lot better off than people who spent $$$ more and didn't even get CDR(W) or (S)VCD playback capabilities.

Re:But waht about price fixing?

[RollingThunder]

"Two wrongs don't make a right."

In fact, by infringing, you give them the same justification back to continue sleazy practices.

Re:Huh

[FatHogByTheAss]

It also doesn't say that magic pink elephants aren't fair use.

It specifies what fair use is. The fact that it doesn't say making personal copies means that it isn't fair use.

Re:Modern American Federalism

[Archfeld]

yes but that 119k was from 1 state, 3 COUNTIES ONLY, and the election was decided by 537 votes ?!?! No matter how you rationalize it the problem there stinks and it allowed the courts to decide the election. I can't argue it WASN't becuse they voters were idiots at all, but that is a HUGE portion of the voting public in those areas, and when that many people get things wrong, it is a symptom of an underlying issue. I think many of them had pre voted ballots, and the lousy design ensured that many of the ballots fell apart before these people got to the voting box. I agree with you on taxes..there are MANY valid reasons to pay them, but I want to see financial responsibility and accountability....okie pipe dream over I will go back to work for the man now..thanks for the diversion......Archie

copying dvd's is possible.

[leuk_he]

It is well known you can copy your dvd to vcd disks and play them.

Want to know how to do this?

here it is described.

Since the mpeg2 format needs to be licenced ther are no 100% free tools to do this, and it takes a bit of processing power on your pc. But is is doalble. The tools remove Macrovision and i never a "region" thingy in this software.

Expect VHS quality, no more.

Re:US tourists in particular

[radja]

that's a case of knowing the local market.. in europe, everyone knows about region-encoding. so the first question is: is it region-free? if not.. is there a free way to get rid of the region (code on the remote.. stuff like that), and if not... how much to get it chipped to make it region-free? //rdj