Slashdot Mirror
Funky Robotic Hand
seldo writes "The BBC is carrying a story about a funky-looking robotic hand with the full range of 24 hand movements (NASA's best effort so far has 12, apparently). It's supposed to be for the disabled, although a spokesman for the British Council of Disabled People points out that everyday tasks are not really what the disabled need help with anymore. I just want one to play with :-)" Update: 08/08 17:58 GMT by T : You may be reminded of the DIY robot head from several months ago -- a perfect match?
Finally, I can use both hands to browse the net! We'll just have to see how life-like skin they can create...
The google cache can be found
here.
...to Luke's/Anakin's new hand.
Trolls lurk everywhere. Mod them down.
That's incredible! The intense Star Wars freaks are gonna have a field day. I'd imagine that there will be a few people who cut off their hand in hopes of having a Robot hand. Become one with the force, young Jedi.
Do it doug.
the pr0n industry has really gone too far this time!! How lazy are you bastards?!?!?!
First application of new technology is always from the pr0n industry.
look, never had one, and I want one. /me wants to be a MAN
So if I wack my hand off I get one of those... SWEET!
I just want one to play with :-)
:)
Do you, now?
Do you like German cars?
It looks fine for make coffee, and I think it's still kinda crude for the 3-finger solution, eh?
You know, talking to a mobile phone while driving without hands-free is going to be banned in Finland too soon. Maybe I could actually buy two of these, the other could hold the phone, and the other could show the middle finger to the legislators while safely keeping both hands on the wheel.
Quadriplegics will finnally be able to give everyone else the finger!!!
... but can it breakdance?
were you expecting to see a sig here? perhaps you'd rather see the inside of an ambulance!
Porn is faster now, as one hand for the mouse, one for the keyboard to toggle pages, and the third for....ummm....ummm.... Holding a pop?
Not that I would uh need that...uhh... ok, bu-bye..
"CPU's Don't make mistakes....They just miss a few cycles sometimes..."
The hand-challenged can wack off with full articulation!
Compared to war, all other forms of human endeavor shrink to insignificance. God, how I love it. - Gen. George Patton
A robotoic hand, and 7800 DVD's of P0rn... no one is going to leave home....
Interesting method of actuation: IIRC, these work in the reverse of organic muscles, in that they are capable only of pushing rather than only pulling. This introduces its own set of limitations but does act quickly to close the gap on basic cabilites engineering.
Still not useful to those who've lost only a hand as the actuation gizmos do take up quite a bit of space, but certainly an impressive achievement.
Any spoon would be too big.
If the fingers/hand have sufficent PSI force, the military could make a hell of a augmented suit for special forces - I can see it now, a marine running through afghan wearing a backpack that has 6 of these arms on it, all with weapons... Sounds like another sequel to Robocop
Skynet and T-800's abound...
but seriously, this could be a very good for a lot of people. Just as long as Cyberdyne doesn't get they're hands on it.
If someone hacks into this thing, can they make you type what they want? Or make you tickle girls where they don't want to be tickled?
"I swear Sharon! It wasn't me! It was my hand! Someone hacked into my hand!"
[exeunt]
Maybe future efforts along this vein should include more than just computer scientists and mechanical/electric engineers. Maybe they should have a psychologist or even, *gasp*, a handicapped person on the team.
How about use as a waldo, either in manufacturing or in hostile environments such as space? The 'air muscle' part might need modification for vacuum, but I bet it isn't insurmountable.
If you can't beat them, embrace and extend them.
from the web page:
:)
Controller:
* Stock x86 PC running Debian GNU/Linux with RTAI real-time system.
* Shadow's own GPL'd robot code will be shipped, permitting initial setup and evaluations. PC will have CAN interface provided.
Hmm, I wonder how well Beowulf works with RTAI
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes ,
This hand is possessed by Debian Linux. Take THAT, Evil Dead!
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
"Groovy."
From the company site
* Stock x86 PC running Debian GNU/Linux with RTAI real-time system.
* Shadow's own GPL'd robot code will be shipped, permitting initial setup and evaluations. PC will have CAN interface provided.
IANAL, but imagine a beowulf cluster of in Soviet Russia all your belong are base to us welcoming the new SCO overlords.
...I just need a couple of fingers, ever since the unfortunate "accident." Anyone wanna guess why my name is Toasty16? Winner gets a jpeg of my hand, pending licensing talks with Forgent Networks...
Here's the Google cache.
Now the disabled can reboot Windows by themselves instead of waiting for a BSOD.
Table-ized A.I.
I wonder if they chose this configuration because it was the best (has evolution gotten it exactly right already?) or because it's familiar.
First... this is from the article, and silly: "It's unfortunate that disabled people are constantly used as a reason for inventing new gadgets "
Wasn't there a quote like... Necessity is the mother of all inventions? Well disabled people are just that, disabled. They have something that limits them from doing eveything they want, so why not build stuff to allow them to do what they want. And this is unfortunate?
And is it just me, or does this arm thing seem to opperate autonomously? It doesn't seem like its going to be a prothetic that you control, but more like some helper thing that responds to what you want it to do. Well, i suppose that is the better way since controlling the hand would be rather difficult without some kind of direct link into your existing muscles, or nervous system, and even then, it may take quite some time to master. But i'd assume most people would want to control it themselves, rather than have it do what the programming tells it to do.
All it needs now is a built in vasoline dispensor and every pr0n freak will want one!
BTW, how's this thing's wrist movement?
Trolls make great pets. Adopt one today!
My robotic penis has 72 independant movements!
From the site (airmuscles.shtml @)
:
This method could probably be expanded on using more complex configurations (hydrolic cross-latticed tubing) to yield greater strength, as well.
Any spoon would be too big.
"...everyday tasks are not really what the disabled need help with anymore. I just want one to play with :-)"
...I don't think that was the intended meaning.
Mirror here:
http://www.waiknott.com/mirror/robot.htm
Hmm, maybe read the BBC article.... your point is covered already...
The type of pneumatic muscle that you refer to use a pneumatic piston. These work differently. These muscles use a pneumatic bladder that, when inflated, cause the muscle to contract. This is the same behavior, or the same effect, as real muscles.
My thought is that the cycling of these pneumatic muscles will probably be somewhat noisy. There would be a hissing and poping sound from them as the inflate/deflate and the control valves are operated. I suspect that by using hydraulic muscles instead would be far quieter and would probably offer the device greater strength. The immediately obvious drawback to this is that the hydraulic method would likely have slower response times than the pneumatic version.
I know it says it's controlled by Debian and their GPLed robot code (requisite geekly 'whee!'), but how do you actually Use the thing? Do you have to be plugged into a computer and whacking away at a keyboard with your real hand to make the artificial hand move? Do you have to pre-program movements for it? I looked for it on the page, but darned if I could find it.
"If a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live" -- MLK, Jr.
I can build my haptic feedback arm-wrestling simulator.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
"another hand and an extra set of balls."
John Candy,.
Planes, Trains, and Automobiles.
We're gettin' there baby, we're getting there.
--What, you ain't know about them country fried sessions?
The BCDP is pretty much spot on for 'everyday tasks'. With current technology, and if laws are obeyed with respect to disability access, even the most severely handicapped persons can bathe, eat, work, and sleep with relative ease.
What many people fail to realize is that many disabled persons can't enjoy some of the finer aspects of life. Namely, getting it on with a member of the opposite sex.
I think that many researchers would be surprised at how pleased the benificiaries of their research would be if they would concentrate more on doing things like developing unobstrusive and comfortable devices that would allow those who are paralized, or of abnormal shape to enjoy sex like an able-bodied person. Also of need is research on sensory stimulation for those who have lost feeling in that part of their body.
Many female paraplegics, even if they haven't lost feeling in their lower half, have lost the ability to self-lubricate. For many of thse women, KY or Astroglide is not sufficient or not even an option. Research into non surgical ways to help women lubricate would not only benifit these women, but thousands of others who cannot self-lubricate for other reasons.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Link
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
The Shadow people have been building nice actuators for years now, but then have trouble controlling them. They have an elaborate biped, but it can barely stand up and can't walk. (They're trying to use a fuzzy-logic controller, which the controls community has mostly discarded.) The hand apparently has positional feedback, but not force feedback or touch (although, using their air muscles, you can play with the compliance a bit.) So you can't actually do much with their hand.
I could imagine a couple of progressive rock musicians (mainly drummers, for some reason, go figure) who'd probably want one.
Does one of the 24 possible movements include flipping the bird?
(* Quadriplegics will finnally be able to give everyone else the finger!!! *)
I am starting to get repetative motion pain from my abundant "commuting guestures". If I can automate the process with a hand like this, then my fingers can rest.
(Kirk should have just such a button on his chair, BTW. I want to see an uncensored version of Trek where Kirk tells Khan how he *really* feels. "Scotty, direct all power to the Main Finger!")
Table-ized A.I.
...playing a piano near the beginning of the movie "Short Circuit"?
Cool product, but of course it won't be of much use to the disabled until they figure out how to directly replace the missing hand/arm with this one. The article says "it will have a hand and arm on a moving base, with remote control and camera systems, so the user can guide the robot through simple tasks" -- but speaking only for my (fully limbed) self, that's not what I'd want. I'd want something that can be used like my old arm, not floating around on rollers like some cybernetic Thing.
I'll take the head over the hand anyday...
The lazy man's guide to building a computerized android hand:
Step one - Find an android.
Step two - Decapitate said android.
KERNEL PANIC... can't... move... hand...
Well relax, your problems are solved. We'll have you talking like a native (again) before you can do ASL for "technology to the rescue!"
(With apologies to the entire population of Italy and those of Italian extraction, and, well, everyone everywhere. I'm just a dumb Mick, don't whack me!)
Interesting to note that the article's angle is on an augmentation for disabled people, while their website doesn't have this as a prime focus. I guess they are well aware this angle is their best bet for funding.
Blue sky projects are just tough to fund, I suppose (though I would be interested to know how they've funded their research over the last 10 years on air muscles).
I guess the military are much more predominant in the USA, hence everybody's immediate reaction "they should ask the military for money, these things would help us kill more people and the army would fund that" ...sigh... I remember my great disillusionment when I was told that MIT was funded to the hilt by the military...
Damn shame we can't find ways of funding more interesting experimental research, that we need short term benefits. These guys are excited by getting 75,000 pounds, for goodness sake, that's probably the cost of a day's drinking water on the Shuttle.
If something I said can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, I meant the other one.
OK, back when I was about 8-10 years old (can't remember exactly), I got obsessed about building a robot. It simply had to be done, and I pestered my father (an electronics engineer) mercilessly about it. He tried to explain that it was just NOT a simple project, but I wouldn't listen.
Finally, I wore him down, and "we" (meaning him, and I watched) built a robotic hand. It was actually pretty clever, considering the primitiveness of it. The thumb, index finger and middle fingers were completed before I FINALLY lost interest and saw that it wasn't as easy as I thought.
He basically used some steel pipe that he filed into joints, and used springs to return the fingers to the outstretched position. A cable running through the pipe connected to the end of the finger tips caused them to contract.
Unfortunately, the middle finger broke off at one point, and has been lost. For the first time on the web, here are some pictures. It was made a little under 30 years ago or so. I should have taken a picture of the fingers contracted, but I didn't think of it until now. Maybe I'll go back and add one. :)
My father died about 10 years ago, but this is one my most treasured possessions. It's a testament to the fact that he seldom blew me off when I was interested in something, and did his best to help me (and I probably deserved to be blown off for this request!)
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Bionic hand, bah. I'll stick with my amputee-modified chainsaw.
"Disabled people are quite clear that we need adequate support and personal assistance which is flexible.
:)
"This is not only to do the basic tasks, but also to do other, more sophisticated tasks, which are essential to our well being, such as getting out of the house, meeting new people and having genuine control over our daily living."
The problem with this quote is basically it's saying "Disabled people need slaves". Last I checked there's not a large pool of reliable, trustworthy people that want to become slaves. My grandpa has gone excessively senile and my grandma has to do everything for him. Now, I love my grandpa, but I'd never be able to stand having to be on call 24/7/52 whenever he needed anything. What these "gadgets" ARE good for is working towards the next best thing: independance. Being able to do everything you want to do under your own initiative instead of having someone else do it. Leaving the house and meeting friends when you want to, and not having to convince, or order, someone else to.
Lets face it, you can't manufacture human slaves. At least not in the US
If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance -- Derek Bok, president of Harvard
It can't yet be attatched to a person, so what they're essentially saying is that they have come up with a robot replacement for the Adams Family's pet, Thing the Hand...
There is no mod option "-1: Disagree" for a reason. "Overrated" is not an acceptable substitute. Post something instead.
Terminator 2? This is only the beginning...
geek n performer who performs morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken
...a robotic future with hundreds of people acting like Dr. Strangelove. "It would not be difficult mein Fuhrer! Nuclear reactors could, heh... I'm sorry. Mr. President."
My old art teacher ("Stelarc) in high school was doing this kind of stuff in the late 1970's. here is a photo of him with it. This arm would fully duplicate whatever one of his own arms was doing.
couldn't they run a few power lines and a digital signal to an intergrated controler instead of all those wires?
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
to decide what the disabled need? My wife is disabled, and a fully articulated prothesis with a neurokenetic interface is exactly what she would love to have (as long as it didn't cause pain).
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
Is this going to change the way standard over-40 male medical examinations are done?
I'm not sure whether such would be an improvement.
"Microsoft up the Wazoo" would no longer be just a cliche.
Table-ized A.I.
And before we get the posts about "Does it run Linux?":
;)
Stock x86 PC running Debian GNU/Linux with RTAI real- time system.
Shadow's own GPL'd robot code will be shipped, permitting initial setup and evaluations. PC will have CAN interface provided.
So there you go.
slashdot!=valid HTML
Quick, somebody destroy it, and the chip, and save the mankind.
Translate this into plain english for those of us who never took physics?
Strength:
* Wrist : 1.5Nm
* Distal : 0.5 Nm (Fingers / Thumb)
* Proximal : 1.0 Nm (Fingers / Thumb)
Are we talking million $ man strength here or more like tinkertoy strength?
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
It's easy to make a very realist fully functional hand +arm , out of whatever even thin card or wood.
the problem is getting all the controle and actuators etc... in there.
One option would be to rund wires along, like tendons but i doubt that would be suitable for industrial applications.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
First I make my own 790 robot head, and now you tell me I can have my very own Mantrid drones too?
Is it? I mean, is it FUNKAY, nah? C'mon, I wanna know if it can slap, pull, slide, and rake like a pro, 'n' if it cain't, what good's it fo'?
well - I dont know exactly how the "user" would get it to form the position desired - but one interesting way would be to wear a glove on the oposing hand with sensors that would transfer the desired position to the "Mano-de-Skywalker" - so it would just mimic/mirror the position that the oposing hand is in.
I know that the "claws" that are worn by some one-armers are opened and closed with movement of the shoulder and shoulder-blades....
I want a terminator hand from the t1000. The ultimate in cybernetic skillz.
It's unfortunate that disabled people are constantly used as a reason for inventing new gadgets
Its also unfortunate that the cold war was indirectly responsible for putting men on the moon.
Its unfortunate that some of the initial research into nuclear power plants was for the development of the atomic bomb.
Its unfortunate that people die to establish and protect freedom.
Many of the luxuries we take for granted today were initially created to serve some desparate need. That humanity as a whole benefits from the results of efforts to relieve the suffering of a few, should not be taken to mean that those efforts or results are "unfortunate". Its called progress. Its motivation. Its all about the itch that needs to be scratched.
And I seriously doubt those who are disabled consider those efforts to be "unfortunate" in any way.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
I want the shocker!
You know where you are? You're in the $PATH, baby. You're gonna get executed!
remote handjobs!
All the hoopla about sophisticated robot manipulators does not hide the fact they have no idea how they are goping to control these things in real time. Motor control is a very complex process. It will require more than just powerful computers. Manual dexterity is not something one can hand-program into a computer. It will take a general learning system to learn sensori-motor control in a real-world environment. Spiking neural networks have the best chance of solving this problem. Although I applaud their engineering approach, it will be some time before Shadow's hand becomes useful to handicapped.
Survival Research Labs was Founded by performance artist Mark Pauline, http://www.researchpubs.com/
This is the group without whom Robotwars etc, would not exist.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
It runs on Debian (x86)!
I am alone, yet I also surf the universal backwash of undifferentiated Being, which is LOVE.
I would like to have an optional 3rd hand, my life would be much easier.
Before we know it, we will see a robot from the future speaking english with a german accent!
No, when I think "funky robot hand" - I always think of that extremely dextrous, three-fingered robot hand that was shown way back in the 1980's on such shows like "That's Incredible" and "Beyond 2000" - I can't find any pictures online of it, though I think it was one of the incarnations of the Utah/MIT Dextrous Hand Master system (I found plenty on the system, but they don't have the same hand I remember). One thing I remember that was most funky about the hand was that the fingers could flex inward and outward, to hold and manipulate large ring type pieces. Each finger had base abduction, and multiple flexing movement - it seemed to be driven by steppers with flexible cables. They had a demo (which seemed staged, and the hand without feedback sensors at the time) showing it handling and manipulating various items - very impressive, fluid, and beautiful to watch in action.
Does anyone here know of what I am talking about - and can anyone find images? I admit I didn't do a major exhaustive Google search - only delved a few pages in the results...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Well, beauwulf wripped off Grendel's arm. This is eerie thinking.... It'd take a beowolf cluster of what to.... Oh I don't know..
It should, so it can scream "TALK TO THE HAND!!!"
"What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
Hey, why stop there? Why not provide specialized appendages that can plug into the hand in place of the fingers, like pliers, screwdrivers, scissors, milkshake blenders... French ticklers...
'Course, it does open the possibility of misplacing your digits. Imagine leaving your pliers at home and arriving at work with a buzzing silver bullet for a thumb.
I hate it when that happens.
I can see the fnords!
A time jumping hyperalloy combat chassis Terminator series manufactured by SkyNet sent back to 1984 to hunt down and kill the future mother of John Conner, Sarah.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
I can see where a robotic arm would be useful for people with atrophied muscles, or who lost a limb.
But disabled people without heads are called.... dead.
Supposing that one of my hands was missing one of these might be a nice thing to have for everyday applications, but why are we limiting ourselves to emulating biology? why not take our bodies in a drastically different direction? All those nerve endings that used to control the dexterous muscles in a hand could be used for more than just controling a new hand, given a little practise. Back to supposing my hand was missing, I spend a great deal of time typing every day, I'm sure there are more than enough nerve signals flowing through my wrists to create every character on a standard keyboard, but there would need to be an intermediate interpretation/conversion device. With such a device I could keep one hand on the mouse while typing at full speed. Disablity becomes advantage.
Now Taco's wrist wont hurt anymore :)
-- Probability does not dismiss possibility --
Neat:
* Stock x86 PC running Debian GNU/Linux with RTAI real-time system.
* Shadow's own GPL'd robot code will be shipped, permitting initial setup and evaluations. PC will have CAN interface provided.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
Your dad seems like he was a great guy! My condolences on his passing.
And, the design is pretty elegant, all things considered. It still looks impressive today.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
On the one hand, on the other hand, ...
now, we HAVE the Gripping Hand!
Masamune Shirow, the Japanese artist, uses Air Muscles in some of his mecha designs in works like Appleseed. I could never figure out what they were supposed to be, I just thought they were some kind of unobtanium "artificial muscle."
I'd post links if I could, but I'm at work.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
he'd lie to you and tell you that he would like to do blah, blah, blah... and then hug the kids and hold his wifes hands or a load of other BS...
he'd be going to some porn sites and trying out robotic maria palm and her 5 sisters (yeah, yeah there are hundreds of iterations of that, n/k)...
just nasty to think that A LOT of people would say "Hey let me be one of the first people to shake your new hand." - knowing better, I would stay the hell away from that hand for a while...
That is your ass, and this over here is your elbow, and NO they ARE NOT the same thing.
jackass who cares, i bet you just finished reading a book on that and though that youd impress someone
lets go play hide and go fuck your self.
This must be Thursday, I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
It's gonna be 100 years before some cybernetic fool can compete with my pop 'n lock routine, suckahs!
Excellent. Now we can make a robot that can both use harsh language and give you the finger.
Leveling up builds character.
The artificial muscle they are using are pretty interesting. Its called the Mckibben artificial muscle and the basic design has been around for a while. Here's a link that gives a basic overview and shows you how to make one:
Mckibben muscle page
And here's one where a guy actually integrated it into his lego mindstorms!
Lego air muscle
Thanks for translating it into Newtonian english for me, but the second part of my question still goes unanswered.
Assuming unlimited strength at the elbow how much (in jym-room barbell english) can this arm lift and swing?
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
When I think funky, I wanna get down! But it ain't so wit' this sheit--why you labelin' it like that?
Does it have a funky groove? Does it move to tha beat? Does move that booty smooooth?
Nah, it's all mechanical, soulless, lifeless.. it just ain't got tha funk, brutha!
It is a robot hand, not a robot arm. So, they don't provide any data for the elbow or shoulder because there isn't any. As for the hand, as another poster already pointed out, one of the fingers could lift about 2.5 pounds at the fingertip, not very much. Which is expected because air muscles are not very strong.
PERVERT!
The shadow project have achieved nothing notable in the field of autonamous biped motion in the last 10 years. Their most advanced creation has yet to stumble more than a couple of steps even when held in its safety harness. While dozens of projects around the world have been spawned, caught up with and then overtaken them ( without a harness ) the shadow project has largely stagnated.
The hand looks good, but lets see the mpeg of it doing something useful. I suspect that we'll have a long wait.
It's supposed to be for the disabled,
Thank God! I am finally free! Now maybe that group prostitutes that always are gathering near my house will go away!
Send me an email at toastman_16@yahoo.com to claim your prize!
My last name is Cordes as well. You're not some long lost relative are you? (I do have an uncle Peter :)
http://www.shadow.org.uk/movies/HandA-beer.mpeg
I don't think so. My parents are into genealogy, but I don't know how far back they have info on the Cordes side.
Email if you want to talk about it.
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes ,
It looked that way from the picture
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
My comments re: the military were primarily aimed at the slashdot posters whose reactions were on the lines of 'cool, we could use this to build military exoskeletons like in Alien' and also the the poster who suggested arming soldiers with six of them on a backpack so soldiers could fight with many weapons at once. Yup, as a European who as you rightly points out has 'genocide in my back yard' I get very sensitive to responses which suggest war or weapons are cool.
I'm sorry, I just think it's really sad that there are people whose first reaction on seeing new tech is asking the question - I wonder how we could turn this into a weapon? I think it's desperate that we have to be grateful to the military for funding projects, that we have to have discussions on the lines of 'we spent a lot of money producing an improved killing machine and as a minor by-product something useful for people came along' - why not cut out the bit in the middle and just fund things which may be useful?
I still stick by my statement that it's generally sad that companies have to find a profit angle (e.g. 'help the disabled' -though that's no bad thing) to get research paid for, I wish our countries could be more forward thinking, and it looks like you agree with me on this pointRegarding the 'genocide happening in our back yard' here in Europe, yes, it is terrible, and I wish we could find a good way of stopping it. I get the feeling that it is more likely to happen through social integration rather than further arms funding, including by supporters from outside countries (support from the US for armed struggle in Northern Ireland could be mentioned here...), and covert encouragement by countries who may make political or financial gains.
Troll for the day - how come it's all the oil producing countries that people want to go to war with? How come we're not worried about the human rights abuses and terrorist activities by dictators in other less economically significant countries?