Slashdot Mirror
Linux on Xbox One Step Closer?
RpiMatty1 writes: "Apparently the Linux Kernel has been booted on the Xbox. No mention of it on the Xbox-Linux Home page yet. Here is another posting of the same messages at Xboxhacker.net." I wonder if the recent security code change rules this particular development out for Xboxes purchased in the near future.
But are there any practical uses for an Xbox running Linux? Haven't you defeated the primary purpose of the Xbox: playing games?
I've heard people say that they could use it as a cheap webserver for a massive farm of servers, but this doesn't make much sense when you realize that you can build a better machine for just a little more money and a *lot* less effort. I've also heard people say that it could be used as a part of a rendering farm, but these machines have only a lowly (crippled) celeron processor in them and their graphics hardware isn't meant to do non-realtime rendering.
So what's the deal here?
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
I wonder if THAT could run, oh nevermind. It looks nothing like a penguin anyway.
Seriously folks, do we need to give more money to the red devil?
Just the other day I was strolling around in fry's. I had just bought some KVM cables and I needed a gender changer when I saw the neatest thing I seen in a while. I don't remember the name but i'll try and be as detailed as possible...
There was this tiny mobo at fry's with a 800mhz CPU soldered on board. The thing couldn't have been bigger than a mousepad. It had video out, firewire, usb, bunch of other stuff on it.
The price?
Only $129!
I know a lot of people want to use the xbox as a cheap linux station, but seriously folks, everytime an xbox is purchased it goes back to satan himself.
Now even though this lil mobo/cpu thingy didn't have the latest nvidia chip, I could slap up to 2 pc100 dimms in there. It's a helluva lot smaller than an xbox. If I wanted a pretty injected plastic moulded case I could walk over to the next isle and grab a project box. (I was thinkin tap plastic acrylics)
So which would you rather have?
xbox (and you're bills bitch)+70 bucks for a mod chip
129 cpu mobo combo and some spare parts you got layin around the garage.
Well, we could always play freeciv on an xbox.
But then again, xbox stuff is prettier, and we all know we play games 'cus they're prettier.
Another reason might be this, which I suppose could be viewed as a game as well.
So we want linux on the xbox to play games?
. This sig unintentionally left blank. I meant to put something here, but I'm busy.
Actually, every purchase of the Xbox sends Microsofts money to the hardware vendors. Sony and Nintendo see this and dropped their prices (still making $$ on the hardware) so MS would lose more. The hardware in the Xbox is expensive as game consoles go and a bunch of that money is going to Nvidia.
;)
So, Microsoft loses money on each sale of the hardware and it's been estimated that you'd have to purchase something like 10 or 15 game titles for them to break even.
Now you see why this is "interesting"? It's a hit against Bill Gates' wallet and there's a pretty cool graphics system onboard. All in a box that SCREAMS FOR THE X-WINDOW SYSTEM.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
I've seen people quote this "fact" all over slashdot. But has there been any hard facts? How do we know this isn't some kind of astroturf campaign to make anti-ms types think it's ok to purchase an xbox? I'd love to see someone who really knows about hardware manufacturing to do a cost rundown fo the xbox, giving conservative and liberal estimates of how much they think it costs MS to maufacture and why.
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
I was just thinking this same thing. That whole justifying-buying-an-Xbox-even-though-it's-made-by -Microsoft thing is kinda silly. So what if it costs them $300 to make and they sell it for $200?
You purchase Xbox: $200 - $300 = -$100
You don't purchase Xbox: $0 - $300 = -$300
Plus that things as big as a fucking microwave. I don't have room for it beneath my TV.
Microsoft has unsold X-box inventory. Buying an X-box does NOT cost them money like /. would like to believe - it just reduces their unsold inventory and recoups some of their losses.
Also, buying them increases their market share --> more "Only on X-box" games --> more people buy X-boxes --> MS eventuallly wins the market.
I believe the break-even rate was 3-4 titles per person, it's certainly not 10-15. Even so, MS makes tens of billions in profit each year - the billion or so they're losing on the X-box is a pretty good long-term investment for them.
In short - don't buy X-boxes to "stick it to Satan" - it won't work.
And lets load Linux onto a dishwasher while you're at it... But seriously, I can't see this ever becoming even close to a widespread practice, even in the realm of umber-geeks. Cost. First, MS has made it a pain in the ass just to perform the proceedure and second, just build your own box for cryin' out loud. You're smart and resourceful.. Parts can be readily had for cheaper in both time and money combined... But it's the moral Linux vs. MS victory you're after, I guess...
You need a FREE iPod Nano
I think he was thinking of CP/M.
You forgot:
You don't buy and XBox but someone else does: -100+ Royalties = profit
In other words so long as MS doesn't end up with excess Xboxes buying one does more damage, because then they have to make more. The best solution would be a massive coordianated campaign to buy thousands of Xboxes in a short period then stop. Thus causing MS to overestimate demand and get stuck with unsold inventory. However as a practical mater one can assume that MS will predict demand at this point in the cycle with some accuracy, so buying an Xbox now does the most damage as MS will take a hit, and the Xbox would have been sold anyways.
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.
Great! Someone is one step closer to getting sued for violating the DMCA.
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
Lots of people here are saying Why bother wasting your time porting Linux to the Xbox, you can create a better cheaping Linux platform using, blah, blah, blah... But the Xbox is really a trial run for Palladium, i.e. an M$ only hardware platform designed to only run software authorized by the Bill himself. This is where we are heading folks, so any R&D done now will be valuble when the real thing comes along.
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
Ok, so let's say you are able to garner enough support to go on a massive 'Let's screw Microsoft!' binge and purchase as much as 20,000 Xboxes.
$4,000,000 - $6,000,000 = -$2,000,000
Two problems I see. And, while I'm not trying to be an ass, it'll certainly seem like it.
1.) Microsoft isn't the only one that'll see these sales figures. Game companies will too. They'll see a rise in demand and want to produce more titles for it (some exclusive, no doubt) therefore making Xbox more enticing to gamers. The increased production as a result of your buying spree might actually be able to be sold and you may unintentionally help Microsoft's plight in the gaming market.
2.) $2,000,000 isn't a lot of money to Microsoft. They probably don't even care that it's gone. But $2,000,000 in donations to open source projects would be a great thing. I realize that's not something that everyone is interested in, but if even half the people donated half that money to something more worthwhile than maliciously screwing Microsoft, you'd be doing a lot more net good than apparent net harm to Microsoft.
Just a thought. Could be wrong.
With the availability of some good PSX emulators for Linux, this could result in PSX games running on the Xbox, which would be pretty damn cool.
I've got karma to burn, so what's the deal here? It has the words "Linux", "PS2" and "emulation" in it and somebody modded him down?! And on top of that, it's actually a good idea. The XBox is just the machine to pull off multi-platform emulation. I'd still be worried about MS locking out boxes with invisible code in every new game release for modded Xboxes, but the idea is definitely worth noting.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
The addition of one more port (really not a full port, since the Xbox is x86) does not change the overall picture wrt. NetBSD and Linux. There are already a few platforms (newer PA-RISC systems and old PPC macs come to mind) Linux supports well that NetBSD cannot work on at all, but if you look at the full list of NetBSD-supported systems, you'll see probably numerous architectures so obscure that linux is NEVER going to support them. And its support for those that set NetBSD apart.
"(Man) tries to live his own life as if he were telling a story. But you have to choose: live or tell." --Sartre
Eh, I have an amateur radio packet radio server running on a 486/33 with 16 MB RAM, so not much more than what was suggested here.
It runs RedHat 5.2 and has been running continuously and free of any errors for three years now. I had to reboot it once for Y2K hardware testing (turned out all was OK), and at that time I cleaned out the dust. I guess I need to dio this again some time in the coming year.
This PC is on a UPS and monitors two TNC's (terminal node controllers) connected to two radios. These radios talk AX.25 on VHF and UHF respectively, and keep me connceted to the 'net slowly but reliably when the cable connection goes down.
It also runs a radio bulletin board and hosts FTP and Apache.
Point being, a server can be dedicated to some sepcific tasks and very old hardware can do a great job, and Linux can be compiled to run clean and small, and is utterly reliable. I think if I had any memory leaks I'd know by now!
Michael VA3MVW
---
BDOS ERR ON A:>
So you're saying the time these guys have aready put into trying to crack the thing isn't worth the price of what a GF3 will worth when they finally do? Or even on the back end when people do this modding themselves? I guess it all depends on how much your time is worth...
You need a FREE iPod Nano
So I guess he decided not to wait after all? ;)
Well, if my goal in laying out .2k for each box
were to jab usoft, this point might be salient,
but it's not. My goal is to get usoft to defray
part of my hardware expense.
As the prices keep dropping, the break even rate
keeps rising.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
Yes, I must agree that it's unwise to buy xboxen
as a counter-microsoft strategy. But there's
nothing wrong with enjoying a little chuckle at
the side-effects while you enjoy the benefits of
the hardware subsidy. I buy xboxen because I plan
to use them in places where I would otherwise be
spending significantly more money for the same
function, or else because by buying more hardware
I can isolate functions, and remove single points
of failure. If I can replace a $1000 file server,
mail server, web server, router, print server
with a $200 print server, a $200 router, a $200
web server, a $200 mail server, and a $200 file
server, then I've saved thousands on downtime and
maintenance, made my network more robust, and,
yes, sucked $500 from usoft to support my habits.
It's all good.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
Buying Xboxes allows Microsoft to recoup some of its operating losses.
Imagine it costs $210 to make an Xbox these days. So Microsoft loses about $10 per Xbox.
"Great!," you say, "we can just buy 100,000 Xboxes and put MS down $1 million!"
It's a brilliant idea, because 100,000 Xboxes will cost you around $20,000,000 (minus applicable sales taxes). Microsoft paid $21,000,000 to make them, so this way MS loses $1 million and we've screwed Microsoft, right?
Well, imagine if you hadn't bought those 100,000 Xboxes. Then, not only would it have cost Microsoft $21,000,000 to produce them, but there is an added bonus that they don't make back $20,000,000; this sets them at a loss of $21 million, a much higher expense than just a measely $1 mil.
IE, it's a pos. VIA C3 800, $129.
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http://shop3.outpost.com/{PVW0rhqXj2gKoab1A75VV
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Does anybody know wether you can upgrade XBox-RAM?
Linux on an XBox. The question begs to be asked: Why? I asked this when there was so much hullaballoo over booting linux on a dreamcast, and all I got for a reply was "don't tell me how to use my dreamcast!!".
So. Why so much noise over Linux on an XBox? Why could a Slashdotter buy an XBox anyway? You all hate MS so much. And then devote hours and hours into getting Linux to run on it? Yeah, I suppose you all get some kind of sick thrill from it, from "perverting" an MS product, but geez... isn't this sort of like having sex with your sister?
Let's go with something outrageous, and assume that Microsoft loses $200 a box. A million people go out and buy the Xbox, Microsoft increases production to meet this new demand, and loses $200 million. Microsoft already expects to lose _billions_ on the Xbox the first few years and _doesn't care_!
They don't even care if you don't buy any games for it. Why not? A week after this, all of the sudden newspapers and websites and tv stations are talking about the huge surge in Xbox demand, far surpassing Gamecube. Developers sit up and take note and start making more Xbox games. There are more games for those who buy them to spend money on, giving Microsoft money, the greater number of games and the percieved increase in popularity will encourage more people to buy Xboxes to play games on, more money for Microsoft.
Do you think most people will notice or care that some of the people with Xboxes aren't playing games on them? Especially when Microsoft is spending millions on advertising boasting about the increased sales and "popularity"? Do you really give that much credit to the intelligence of the average consumer or media conglomerate?
Every article I've seen about the Xbox the last few months has been talking about their dismal sales, with the possiblity of an increase down the road. The PR value of every Xbox bought is currently worth far more to Microsoft than any money they are losing on the system! And do you think Microsoft isn't paying attention to the people trying to port Linux to the system and adjusting their accounting appropriatly? They're probably laughing at everyone's naievety right now.
Probably the only reason Microsoft isn't giving XBox away is a: the laws against product dumping, and b: the marketing perception that if the price is being slashed then it must not be any good. How many people rush out to buy a game that ends up in the bargain bin the week after it's released?
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Simply put --
According to Red Herring, each XBox Microsoft manufactures costs them about $325. When you buy one, they recoup about $175 on that expenditure, meaning the entire transaction cost them $150.
So -- unsold XBoxen cost MS $325 each, sold ones cost them $150.
I'm happy to run linux (and play games) on my PC and let them eat the $325...
:wq
If I remember right, the xbox boots off of the deep layer on the dvd and this was done because you can't write the deep layer on any dvd writer. The question then becomes can you create a cd-w that has a standard boot loader that tells the thing to boot off of cd-w data?
that's one way to look at it but it only works if there are no current sales of the product. Since we know there are unsuspecting oblidiots still purchasing the units, by taking a unit out of the game console market, you are preventing someone else from purchasing a unit or forcing MS to have more built.
;)
If we knew sales were dead and inventory bloated, then leaving them alone would be the best to hurt MS. Since we don't know this, letting MS pay for some of our hardware costs makes sense. That is if the hardware is worth having.
If the unit will make a good PVR, MP3 player, DVD player, etc (ie a home intertainment unit) then $200US seems like a great price for this X-Window Box.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
That translates roughly to 'the sort of geek whom people turn to, to ask how to do stuff'...
Microsoft is less concerned with selling games to tweaks than with having people see tweaks USING XBoxes for various purposes, establishing the desirability of the hardware- a sort of 'gee, if Tweak here runs a web server off his XBox, I bet it would be great and reliable for playing my games!' angle they're trying to work.
That is why they have people actively working Slashdot, both posting and moderating. They also have supporters they're not directly paying (more like cheerleaders), but some of the 'stick it to them' posts are in fact Microsoft people, on the clock and working that angle to scare up sales.
Now, mod me 'flamebait'. ;)
If you want to mess about with Linux on a console, and want something (much) cheaper than an Xbox, try a Dreamcast. The project is here.
People ask why port Linux to consiles and the answer is because it's fun and because you can have a go at kernel hacking in a friendly, non commercial, atmosphere.
There are a number of videos out there purporting to show things like this.
None of them are verifiable; all indications are that they are fake (some are), or, in some cases using the development SDK. Which makes it possible to run such programs on development X-boxes, but don't produce code which can legally be distributed. (As they require Microsoft libraries)).
Well, I have seen more sophisticated cracks than this would require. A commited cracker should have no problem in patching that nuisance away. Standard procedure for cracking software.