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Linux Video Editor Cinelerra 1.0 Released
Ogerman writes "At long last, Heroine Virtual's Cinelerra 1.0 has been released. This successor to the discontinued Broadcast 2000 project is absolutely amazing and should give Adobe Premiere and others a run for their money as it continues to mature. So, fire up those digital camcorders, get to work on all your latent indie-film ideas, and help put ol' Jack V. out of a job. Here's the 1.0 Press Release." For those unfamiliar with Cinelerra, check out the screen shots.
I like the way this is headed. Software like this is going to be instrumental in creating competing products against the mpaa and such. If indie films can be produced and sold _online_ even easier, then there will be more.
Then the giant may begin to crumble...
I'd like to think that, but I'm probably just kidding myself...
Brian
My ATI tv-card works pretty well under windows, being able to capture 30 fps at a good resolution. What brands of capture cards work the best with linux?
in my opinion the only real demand for this is at home prosumers...
professionals will either use premier or a home grown system.
normal consumers will just use the shitty software package included with their camera.
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
now that est creativus trollus :)
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
In the interest of getting an early comment out, I havent looked at the program yet. However, is this application anywhere near iMovie or Final Cut Pro?
Seems like Apple is doing a ton to make movies easy. How does this Linux App compare? Would it just be worth it to just use a Mac instead?
WooHoo!
Go Linux! Go Linux! Go Linux!
Uh! Double up Uh! Uh!
Go Linux! Go Linux! Go Linux!
I've been able to get my tvtuner card to work just as good under linux as it did under windows, but the lack of anything worth watching on tv has forced me to quit watching Tv almost completely, this software looks impressive from the screenshots, perhaps its time to start filming my own footage of: "Corporate Office 101 for Dummies (Please submit the lack of your intelligence into the helpdesk system now!)"
You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads!
ecce homo! trollus maximus est.
What the gui toolkit is that?
doesn't skip frames and stutter like bcast2K did it will be useful on a reasonably fast machine obviously
Ah, but does it work with next year's "Pixar render farm in a box" video cards which we keep hearing all that hype about?
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
Now when the teacher will ask my kid how he made his video presentation, he will say he made it on heroine with his father at home on linux ...
Can't wait to have the feds pick me up.
err, my latin sucks. I've only had one year.
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
Have these guys never heard of The Interface Hall of Shame? You should NEVER EVER utilize color in an interface where color correction is required. The UI hinders the user's ability to faithfully adjust colors.
I also wouldn't go as far as saying this application will give Premiere a run for its money because Premiere benefits GREATLY from its relationship with other Adobe applications. I can edit my work in Premiere then import the entire project, tracks, effects and all, into After Effects for post production work and final rendering. Not to mention the ability to import native Photoshop and Illustrator files without any special work arounds.
I also didn't see anything in the feature list which suggested this application is capable of editing web enabled video (QT, Real and/or WMV)
First they claim Linux is superior to Windows, then they claim they are not gay. What next?!?!?!
"Behold the man! He is the greatest troll!" (actually, I don't think the Romans had a trollus, -i M., heh.)
:p
According to the site, "The source code is very hard to compile." - now I've seen some interesting disclaimers in the past (I ran E17 for the longest time, trust me I know "hard to compile" when i see it), but so far I've untarred it and typed "make", and it's faithfully chugging away. HEH.
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
Is there a site that offers indie videos?
I'd be happy to put Jackboots Valenti a few bucks in the whole by supporting somebody else once in a while.
heres a google cache of the important stuff:
The Screenshots
The front page
I had an argument with Linux enthusiasts that were trying to tell me to put Linux on my desktop. Their logig was ... this is really cool and we hate MS. My response was ... cool internet server and fun to play with but until it can -
.... but yeh MS do suck dont they.
a) do real photo editing
b) edit professional video
c) be a reasonable replacement for MS office
I would not touch it
Well lookey here - there are less and less reasons to stay with XP. Well done guys!
Here's my wish-list: I've been searching for a multitrack recorder for Linux but I haven't been satisfied with anything I've tried. I have experience with Win32 applications ranging from the high-end (Samplitude) to the lower (n-Track Studio). These were all easy to install and use. But I've run into lots of problems with various Linux applications (GLAME, SLab, and Multitrack). I'm a newbie, so maybe I just have no idea how to install and configure correctly. But if that's the case, then why don't we develop something easier to install and configure? Most musicians aren't software enginers (I'm not). Make it easy for us!
Am I not looking hard enough or is there really nothing out there for multitrack recording on GNU/Linux? Should I wait for OpenBeOS? Any suggestions will be appreciated.
A lot of Nikon coolpix users have paid $50 for the famous eBook on using it, and Cinelerra / HV might be smart to make something similar. Canon makes some great video cameras that are widely marketed at the "prosumer" crowd (XL1, GL1), and even though that term may grate on the ears of anyone so labeled, there are a lot of prosumers (arrgh, the sound! the sound!) out there.
:)
... just like the people who buy the new "mid-range" (but still pricey) digital SLRs.
Heck, anyone who learned Blender reasonably well (not me) will probably *prefer* the Cinelerra interface to, say, anything made by Apple
And if you count that group as including both high-dollar amateurs (dentists, lawyers, even programmers with some extra money) with an interest in creative editing, and low-budget professional users (like the folks who do wedding videos and take your guided horse-ride video etc, as opposed to the makers of Waterworld)*, there really is a big potential audience. Money to spend on it + motivation to learn a rigorous interface
Also, Heroine Virtual's website is always fun to read, a little bit like Dr. Bronner's soap. When I have (garrh!) a dual 1.6GHz athlon system with a gig of RAM and a firewire card, I hope to find it usable for simple editing, because it looks rather fun.
timothy
* And those overlapping groups is just how I would define "prosumer" anyhow.
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
iMovie and iDVD don't count, 'cause those are really just toys for making home movies or submissions to iFilm, but Final Cut Pro is/was a great competetor to Primere, with all of the features at less than half the price.
However, I'm an audio professional, and will happily and uniformly disparage all of these 'tools' for neglecting to have any real ability to edit audio. As just about anyone in the industry will tell you, audio is the bastard stepchild of video/film, with less than a tenth of any movie's budget spent on sound... and yet all of those same people will agree that sound is just as important as visuals, if not more - consider the Blair Witch Project, with cheap, shoddy visuals, but eerie and compelling audio to create the mood... Now imagine a rock-steady camera in a high-budget film, with sound that sounds like cheap vinyl... or even AM radio... It's just not acceptable, and nothing will alienate your audience sooner.
As an example of the downplay of audio, Digital Video Magazine has an ad in the last issue offering a turnkey video editing system... Dual 1 GHz G4, Final Cut Pro2, 80 GB Firewire drive, Superdrive, Firewire Media Converter, Sony's $5000 prosumer digital camera, 23-inch Apple LCD cinema screen, Sony 19" NTSC reference monitor (>$1000!), and... Harmon Kardon SoundSticks!
$20,000 USD for this system, and you're getting a $150 pair of speakers... which, frankly, suck (I just wrote an article to be published in December about those speakers, after running them through tests of frequency response, distortion, noise level, etc., and you'd do better with a $150 pair of headphones... but they aren't as pretty).
Additionally, none of these programs have the ability to scrub audio, a MUST as any real audio editor will tell you, very few of them will let you edit on a resolution smaller than a frame (30 fps means that 1 frame = 33 ms... However, a 5 ms delay is audible as phasing, and as low as a 25 ms delay can be audible as a distinct echo), most of them have linear VU meters (rather than logarhythmic, like our hearing... consider, with 0 dB FS as the top of the scale, -3 dB FS is half the power, and on a linear meter, half the distance down... However, -3 dB is a difference in level that is really only noticed by trained ears... Additionally, the SMPTE standard for digital audio is to have normal level (0 VU) at -18 dB FS... Or almost off the scale on any program with linear meters... That's freakin' insane. As a comparison, try using Photoshop with the brightness on your monitor turned down to almost 0. You're trying to work reasonably at the threshhold of noise of the system you're working on.
Also, the EQs in most of these programs have their frequency range set linearly, too... Human hearing goes from roughly 20 Hz to 20 kHz (roughly - young women and children can frequently hear higher frequencies, usually topping out by 23-26 kHz), but our interpretation of frequency is logarythmic: the top octave goes from 10 kHz to 20 kHz (or, the top HALF of a linear scale). The next octave (or, the next lowest quarter on a linear scale) is from 5 kHz to 10 kHz...
You don't start getting into useful ranges until you're in the bottom 32nd of the scale, from 500 Hz to 1 kHz - the fundamental of the human voice goes from about 125 Hz to about 500 Hz, most of the vowels and formants are from about 500 Hz to about 1.5 kHz, and the consonants are from about 1.5 kHz up to about 4 kHz (for the sibilants). There's very little energy in the human voice above 5 kHz... So have fun setting your EQs properly when you're looking at a linear scale that emphasizes the top two octaves... ABOVE what you're dealing with.
Then again, the two major audio editing software programs on the market, ProTools and CoolEditPro also miss some of these, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much. When you deal with sub-standard tools everywhere, you have to give up some expectations
By comparison, look at the Orban Audicy (used in most radio stations for production), and the Fairlight Merlin and D.R.E.A.M. Stations, used for most film/television production.
Sorry.
-T
Isn't that a type of seasoning?
He calls SourceForge, "SourceForget". Is he talking about SourceForge's poor user interface?
That is not the end of the world as often when editing you have to rename the auto capture nomenclature anyway to make sense of it. The question for me is "is it stable?" and more importantly what are the implications if it crashes (i.e. can you loose the whole project like in the old Premiere 4.2 [which was the cause of many a hair pulling exercise])
From their page:
;-)
Dual 1.6Ghz Athlon.
512MB RAM for standard definition.
1GB RAM for high definition.
200 GB storage for movie files.
Gigabit ethernet
So this is the recommended system? If this software outfit are anything like games companies and the recommended systems you see on the side of the box, it looks like you'll need twin Cray 6's with 16TB of RAM to do anything useful
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
First of all, I have to completely agree with you -- bad video is fine, but bad audio kills a production instantly. I'm making a DV film as my senior thesis next year, and I don't intend to spend a dollar or an hour on video until I can be confident of perfect audio.
...)
Most of my editing will probably be on Final Cut Pro, and I'm curious what your experience has been with that. I haven't used it since version 1.5, but I recall that it did have audio scrubbing. I spent a lot of time staring at waveforms (doing seamless voice dubs), and they came out all right.
I don't know much about audio, though -- I would love to hear any suggestions or resources you could point me to, esp. regarding isolating human voices
(my own shameless plug, by the way -- I would submit FCP as a competitor to *Avid*, not Premiere. A TV editor told me that he had bought a $40,000 Avid system -- not because it was any better, but just because you can't be taken seriously in the industry with only $1000 of software. I don't know how Cinelerra will stack up, but maybe a few years from now we'll see the old guard clutching their Avid systems in distress while new filmmakers do the same thing with free software
I'm a video engineer who works out of a network Broadcast center in NYC on a syndicated news program. The company justed invested a huge sum of money into a newish Avid system call "Unity for News". No, this isn't for home or anyone who is not professional broadcast. But it is a fiber system with 7tb storage and a number of other cool features.
One of the more interesting (and stable) peices of this system is a box called an Avid Airspace. It's a box with some very fast RAID drives, a few fiber/GigE cards, and three NTSC/PAL video I/O cards. Each one of these cards can take in a 601 digital feed (this is better then D1 digital found on minidv/firewire cameras.) Each one can output a 601 feed too. In fact, the show I work on broadcast live from this box. (Lifetime network also baught a simalar system, I've been told. Aslo a few local news stations are switching over to this system.)
Now the interesting part - these boxes run FreeBSD and a custom WM on X. All the other peices of the new Unity system (all win2k) are flakly, but these BSD boxes not only run great, but they output live broadcast quality video to millions of people daily.
So, will Cinelerra support these cards? I don't think so. (I don't think you can buy one of these cards without the system and I don't think the drivers are Free/Open.) But know that FreeBSD is used in more then just the CGI for big budget films.
Yes its hard to compile but not impossible.
The first problem that got me was the dependanies, one of which is quicktime which includes vorbis 1.0rc2 which will not build with gcc 2.95-3. It gives sig 11.
I am working on the HOWTO compile under slack 8 at the moment.
At a couple of hundred bucks a pop, packages like Premiere are essentially free anyways - at least in relation to expensive things like talent, cameras, lights, audio, duplication, etc... I really don't see this package as very compelling to anyone who is the least bit serious about making films. Might be nice for the slashdot geek who borrows his Dad's camcorder and edits it for free. Other than that, I'll stick with Adobe.
and should give Adobe Premiere .... a run for their money,
/using/ premiere, don't count on actualy getting much /done/ in it. . . .)
Ever used Premiere? It has one thing going for it, namely, err, it is Premiere. Sucky interface, slow as dog crud, and I have seen CLI video programs there where more user friendly then Premiere is. . . (ok so they where a bit more limited in task, but then again considering how long your patience is likely to last when
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
Took me about 20 minutes of fiddling to get it to make. [Course, the fact that I perversely insist on sticking everything in it's own complete directory, such as /usr/local/APP/cinelerra1.0, and then using a simple script to populate /usr/local/ with it's leafs, did add an extra few minutes bit to it ;)]
;P
Asside from the usual finessing of includes, the toughest bit of the puzzle was the need to apply the compiler -O flag to the quicktime makefile. a52dec was a pain as well. Ah, for the good old days without configure and automake... when men were men and compiling a package would put hair on your chest.
---
the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
Christ. If nothing else, this is a free $1000 Final Cut Pro-ish system, ok? If you were using an Avid (which admittedly outfeatures and outUIs this but is also like 10+ years old and developed by an entire corporation) you'd be paying in the neighborhood of $1600 for the VERY LOWEST end that was just offered (Avid's DV Xpress).
As far as the UI, I think it's been pointed out that this is a skinnable app.
Now, let's get to the heart of your complaint-- Why on EARTH would you want to be editing something in RealVideo? Web-enabled video is a highly compressed version of what hopefully is a much higher resolution, less compressed image at a higher frame rate.
See, here's how it works-- you start with something watchable like DV, film, HiDef, whatever. Then you edit it into a show-- now you have a version you can be proud of..
Then, as a LAST step, you squeeze it down into something like RealVideo, Sorenson, etc.
That's something you can do elsewhere, and it's not something you use a non-linear editor for.
And to address some of the other idiot remarks, you don't use this program for audio sweetening either. This is the video equivalent of a word processor. It's for building a video program, with emphasis on video.
From what I've seen of it, it's fucking amazing that someone's put in the hard work for something like this and then opened it up to the public. It's more amazing that people here are just complaining without having any idea what they're talking about.
Companies like Avid literally charged in the range of 100K for something like this about 5 years ago. Final Cut Pro's $1K price range two years ago or so was a major threat to Avid's business model. Now we've got systems that are GPL'd.. the mind boggles.
Admitedly, quicktime is a better file format. But avi has just caught on by popular momentum, it seems. All the media capture software I have saves to avi. Cinelerra seems to have some sort of modified quicktime which can contain divx, but I've no idea how to transcode the files I have right now into a format cine can understand. No feature would be more thrilling to me than proper avi handling. It's the -one- missing piece of this beautifull bit of software.
...errmm ...Damn, I've ridden the crest and am becoming obsolete already, and I just got this thing 4 months ago. Sigh. Still, if something is going to kick my system's bottom, I'm happy to have an awesome near-professional-level marvel of open source like this to do it.
Wow. Those realtime effects just blow me away!!! Finally something that my K7 MP system can be overwhelmed by
Wow.
---
the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
It's not too hard to learn Premiere. Just RTFM.
Get a card that renders for you and premiere will be just zippy. Then you'll have a movie clicky clicky.
The only software I've found that does this is M2-Edit by MediaWare Solutions, but its UI is awful and it's Windows-only.
New applications are popping out left and right! Open office, Mozilla, Blender, Crossover, etc. Linux is rapidly becoming a very viable contender.
I'm working on a project to digitize a bunch of audio (lectures) for streaming netcast. This is a volunteer thing, and must be done on the cheap.
My Windows 98 system (games, mostly, some browsing) has a SB Live! sound card which comes with Creative Studio.
Great functionality, but DOG SLOW on a system with only 128 MB RAM.
Guess what?!? There's this neat little GTK app I found on freshmeat - close functionality, performs fantastically even with low memory, runs great on my main (but comparable) Linux workstation.
The gaps are filling in fast - this is yet another example.
Wahoo!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Focused a little more on code optimization rather than spending time rewriting user interface pieces we already have standards for, this program would be more usable and would look more professional too.
I'm not sure how huge this can be... no one has bothered to register cinelerra.com. Hmmm.....
well, people have different approaches to spending money / time.
...he seems to enjoy it.")
;) Still, premiere + windows is money I'd rather put into RAM and hard drive space, or a good microphone ...
I'm sure you're right for many people about just plunking down the extra money for Premiere or similar but not all. Just like some people do their own auto-repair, even if technically it's not economical on a dollar-per-hour basis -- calculating enjoyment / satisfaction is difficult, and you can only really do it by observation. ("Yup, test subject Dr. Smonger is again changing his own oil
For many people, the best hobbies are all about learning esoterica -- photographers, hot-rodders, kids into complicated game-pad manipulations to get extra lives, whatever. (I know not all photographers are interested in the intricate details, but boy, a lot of them are, same I'm sure goes for any analogous group.) Cinelerra looks like it could be satisfying to a pretty big chunk of computer tinkerers with camcorders.
If I did have the cash for a movie-editing box, I don't think I'd pay the extra money on top to get both a Microsoft operating system and an expensive editor if it were my machine, but I'm not likely to get a box anything close to the recommended specs here for a while
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
You are correot. "Gemers", es in "people who boy their oompoter jost to pley gemes on it" ere Windows osers, for the obvioos reeson thet their fevorite gemes were either Windows-only or Windows-first.
However, there ere those of os who porohesed oor oompoters with other oonsideretions in mind, who woold elso like to pley gemes on them.
Grented, thet tends to be the exoeption these deys, now thet yoo oen boild e more-or-less oseble geme PC for eboot 400 books. Most Meo geeks I know who like gemes heve e PC on the next desk over for geming, end most Linox gemers either do the seme, or else doel boot.
Personelly, I foond this set-op ideel beok when I wes into EQ. I ooold poll op meps, goild websites, end geme info on my Meo's web browser while still keeping one eye on the geme itself over on the PC monitor. Other times I ooold work on verioos projeots on my Meo while my ohereoter oemped some remote spewn point. Then, of ooorse, there were ell those heoks for reeding the server treffio so yoo ooold know more then the everege beer eboot the geme dete...
If I wes one of those Meo or Linox Zeelots, I soppose I woold hete the geming gep... bot sinoe I don't reelly heve mooh of e problem with owning e dedioeted "geme PC", it's reelly kind of e non-issoe to me.
It's MPEG-4. Microsoft refused to play along with the standards body and did their MPEG-4 version with ASF as the container. DivX was a hack to be able to use AVI as the container. The standards body decided on Quicktime as the container though. So that's the official MPEG-4.
Just use Blender. Well I guess it might not do non-linear stuff, but I could be wrong.
.avi is simply a filenaming scheme (audio video interlace) .. many different video codecs hide behind that filename. DiVX as you mentioned (derived from MEPG4) but also MJPEG, Intel Indeo, WM (windows media) etc ..
.. most notably Sorenson, but more recently MPEG4 as well ..
.. just like Windows Meida cannot be played in Quicktime.
.. Since this occured in Windows .avi as a filename makes sense.
...
Quicktime is a player that plays a whole slew of different codecs as well
Sorenson has been an Apple affair only because Apple has an exclusive licence of some type
DiVX caught on because it was the first MPEG4 type codec to have free encoders (legally or not a different story)
You can play all your DiVX movies in Quicktime on a Mac if you get the Mac drivers from www.divx.com
This one was about the lack of audio capability _within_ video editing programs.
-T
This is a nice tool, but what about the rest of the suite?
What camera would you recommend? What audio editor? What CGI utilities?
... but I don't know if it will be able to win my favor from Vegas Video. Which runs in vmware and sorta in wine/winex.
Though I will definitely give this new guy more than a fair chance...
Sigs pose an operational security risk and help the baddies aggregate data. I guess commenting does too, oops.
You forgot to mention which GTK app you used.
I have an AIW Radeon card, but every time I've tried to get it working right (the capture and tvtuner) in linux, including with GATOS, it hasn't worked. Probably because I'm doing something wrong but don't know what it is.
If you want to share any magic words I'd appreciate it greatly.
Sigs pose an operational security risk and help the baddies aggregate data. I guess commenting does too, oops.
I run windows (i've tried a bunch of linux distros, even BeOS. windows does what i need -- photoshop, 3dsmax. linux doesn't (no gimp and blender don't do what i need), so spare me your flames) and I'd love to try this thing out... but no binaries! If you want to get converts from the Windows camp, you need to make your app available to Windows users. Look at VirtualDub. It's GPL'd, works great, and is available as a win executable. The trick is getting windows users hooked on all the free goodies and becoming familiar with so it's easier to switch to linux.
If open source wants greater market share, it's gotta be available for windows. I'm using Moz and gotten quite a few friends hooked on it -- because it's free and available for windows. Why isn't this?
Well I'm biased but I don't like ifilm. I don't think they can be described as "independent", their investors include Sony, Eastman Kodak and Paul Allen. A lot of their content is stuff that's 3rd rate mainstream tv fodder. What's the point of being independent if you attempt to emulate bad mainstream stuff, that's not very interesting.
Premier and Cinelerra have horrible interfaces and limited features compared to Vegas. All Premier has going for it is plug in availability. All Cinelerra has going for it is the fact that it runs on Linux. One of the coolest features is real time previewing of effects which is limited only by system performance. All this for 1/3 the price of Premier. Vegas's minimum requirements are much less too. It ran well on my PII 384meg running Win98, renders at about 1/3 times real time (4 minute clip renders in 12 minutes). It screams on my new Athlon 1900 1 gig running XP, renders at about 4 times real time (4 minute clip renders in 1 minute).
I've been using TMPGENC under Winders (sic) to do this. I have been able to run it under WINE as well, but it cannot find the a/v codecs, so is rather useless. I have heard running under WINE is possible to do, but I've yet to figure it out. If any knows how to make TMPGENC run under Linux w/WINE, please, let us know.
I thought the BCast2000 author pulled it due to alleged liability problems with open source code. Yet when you click on the Cinelerra download link, it brings up the GPL license!
:) oh wait I only have an athlon 700. :(
Sweetness, but what gives!
Thanks guys! Now if only I had a use for it... will have to think of one.
Some of the Pinnacle cards will not work (no Linux drivers). The card that comes with the Pinnacle Studio Deluxe with breakout box for example.
Admitedly, quicktime is a better file format.
Its a shame their proprietary video player is so lousy on Windows.
(I'm serious, how can they make it so bad, all other video players have a solid display.)
Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
This is another facade of the open source community.
"Microsoft is a monopoly because they only make products for their dominate operating system" -Psychopathic Linux Advocate #2423
yeah.. maybe I don't want it to run on a open source operating system! *cough* hipocrits.
Can this be used for audio only to substitute programs like CuBase ?
Ciryon
I'm puzzled. Heroine Virtual wrote Broadcast 2000, and then pulled it from the web site, saying something about being afraid of lawsuits. I thought they were out of the NLE business.
Now I am happy to see Cinelarra, but I'm wondering if they will be yanking that one of these days like they did with Broadcast 2000.
(Fortunately, with free software, the project can live on after being disavowed by its creator. Cinelarra, now that it has been released under GPL, is here to stay.)
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
I would like to migrate all my old video tapes onto a digital format (preferably DVDs). I'm wondering what would be the best editing tool.
Probably all I really need is something to crop out the bits I don't want to keep: the last 30 seconds of the show that came on before the one I wanted, the commercials, etc. A full NLE is overkill.
What tools, that run under Linux, should I be looking into? Thanks for any advice.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
While I like the program, the toxic waste green color is terrible.
Is there a MacOS X port ?
Since it's supposed to be so easy to port from Linux to MacOS X, I assume that applies here too?
I'm a fairly happy iMovie and iDVD user, but I wouldn't mind some extra options and capabilities for free!
Obviously, it's their way of saying: "Yes, you can compile it on your own, but we're not gonna help you. If you fail, tough. We told you it was hard." Which, in my book, is totally fair. They do distribute binaries, after all.
Slagborr
Thanks for your comment. It was useful to me.
With Cinelerra, Ardour, and Blender, I may finally have reason to buy a new machine and stuff this Celeron 366 in a car or something. It's been going strong for 5 years and I'd hate to have to replace it, but there's sadly not enough power in it anymore. :(
Ahh, the joys of been a poor (as in beer) teenage geek.
The problem is, as the guys at Heroine rely on patched system libs and ship them together with their product, I don't think many Linux distro makers are going to deal with packaging Cinelerra for their distributions, as it is going to be BIG pain. The only right way to install Cinelerra into an RPM-based distribution is to compile it by yourself, as installing it with --force --nodeps could f..k up the RPM database. I would not advise anyone to do this (IMHO, of course)
Anyone get this running under a PPC linux (or even OS X)? Just curious...
I don't know much about audio, though -- I would love to hear any suggestions or resources you could point me to, esp. regarding isolating human voices
The best tip I've heard on this is to get yourself a minidisc recorder. It is small enough to fit in a person's pocket, records decent quality sound (certainly good enough for spoken word, not bad even for music) and can power a small lavalier mic. When you begin shooting a new scene make a loud percussive noise (clapper, anyone?) so that you can line up the audio from the minidisc and the camcorder visually in your editing software. Poor man's SMPTE. : )
alex
--- Wherever you go, everyone is always connected...
Well, seems to me there is another app that makes me happy. Linux seems to steadily working forwards to become a true OS for all, not just the tech people. The only things I am still missing a good 2d vector program a la Illustrator or Freehand, a port of Dpaint(Amiga that was a computer and true MM OS) maybe a authoring app a la Director and Flash and easier methods to install and update and I will never go back to Windows. I think I need to start learning to code for Linux and help out instead of just asking for more..... any good links to learn coding for Linux platform (had some experiences with Java ages ago on Win) let me know.....
- ANY application developer that serves RPM's on their homepage and recommend you to "install them by using rpm --force --nodeps" really shouldn't make RPM's AT ALL. There is nothing worse than telling users of your software to mess up their packaging system. If the answer to this is "well that's because RPM sucks", then you don't know what you're talking about. It's perfectly possible to make good RPM's. In fact, if prodded, I'll make them from cinelerra to prove my point.
-
A really bad issue in Cinelerra is how it incorporates every outside library inside it's source tree instead of using external libraries. We all need to promote code reuse. Taking other people's code and putting it in your tree is bad for several reasons : you're bloating your software when you should be reusing libraries; fixes to those libraries do not go back upstream to the original library and thus the community isn't advancing. There aren't enough advantages to "stealing" code like this to warrant it. Please force the author to reuse software properly and play nice with the rest of the community.
- Broadcast 2000 got pulled from the site due to "copyright problems" or "disillusion with the community on HeroineWarrior's side" (depending on who you ask). So what has changed about that now to ensure this won't happen to Cinelerra ?
I'm certainly going to try the final release, and HeroineWarrior knows what he's doing and has the advantage of actually having produced usable apps. But, in my opinion, applications like this are a nice transition but ultimately a dead end for the community. No one benefits much from applications like these. We should stick to what makes open source as good as it is : code reuse, polishing, cooperation.proprietary version of LINUX?
i didn't know they changed the license...
i'm gonna build my own proprietary version too!
Out of curiosity (well, and lust), I wanted to see what a low-end -- but complete, new -- system capable of running Cinellera would cost. That is, with no parts cannibalized from current computers, as if I was building / installing this sheerly for video play in addition to existing systems. (Actually, as you can see, I cheated in here with one or two things, but only slightly.) I decided I don't need video capture (yet), but I do want firewire in so I can play with video from my camcorder. Also, a CD-RW drive for making disks for give-away. The only place I went above the recommended minimum (I think, since I glanced and sought, didn't really study) is in spec'ing 1800 rather than 1600 dual processors.
:) Even so, that's not a cheap computer considering what can be had for under a thousand dollars right now, but is *is* less than most laptops, and cheaper than the lowest end G4 tower (and I am not knocking Apple hardware or software here, please don't start :)).
:))
,p4 450w(460w power now)
,with 1 yr warranty .
;)
:))
... with video, I know it's a bad place to cut corners, but, well, this is all about cutting corners!)
:)) cuts back $125 (new total tantalizingly close to a thousand: $1032)
Prices are from Pricewatch as of 20020813; most of them are the current lowball bid there, but some are just *near* the lowball bid. Slightly arbitrary, but hoping to avoid the worst liars.
To cut the drumroll short, the total price of the system I assemble here is (very close to) USD1350. Probably, the US is the cheapest place to make such a system, and only you can adjust for local currencies elsewhere
So here is my hypothetical firewire-only Cinelerra system -- is there anything hugely wrong with it? I've listed the components that I found, some with some additional info grabbed from the pricewatch product information. I'm not very familiar with dual athlon motherboards etc, perhaps I've picked a lemon, but this is all a thought experiment anyhow.
(At the end is another bit on price, lowballing even more, trampling on the recommendations
timothy
Case: $95
Skyhawk AL-ATX4378-9/450 aluminum midtower Silver 8bay ATX.3 fans sky hawk
[Wasn't sure if much less power would be adequate for a dual athlon
system]
Motherboard and CPU: $297
Tyan S2460 RETAIL BOX 2Yr Warr. PCI-1 AGP - DMA100 -DDR memory ATX,Tiger
MP AMD Dual AMD-762 Chipset
with cpu - Single Athlon MP 1800+ with Coolermaster heat sink & fan
-complete combo kit
(Part - S2460@1800(1)+)
Additional CPU: $125
Actually, listed for $137 at the moment, but I'm taking a slight liberty with this component, on the basis that I would order everything else, assemble, test, play, etc, and order this a month or so later; I bet by the time everything was in place, that will have been a fair price drop to
calculate.
Video Card: $50
Would not be anything fancy, I realize.
1 GB DDR RAM: $222
ONLINE ORDER ONLY -
major names, 512MB PC2700 333MHz DDR SDRAM CL2 CAS2.5 2.5v, 6 layer
board,dealer OK
$111 -- x2 = $222
240MB of Hard Drive: $264
120.0GB EIDE 7200RPM INTERNAL Model# IC35L120AVVA07, Part# 07N9219 - OEM,
DRIVE ONLY - 120GB
These are IBM drives, for good or ill
$132 x 2 = $264
Firewire Card: $50
(just guessing; I don't see a list of supported cards on the HV site, so I'm guessing midrange of the first page of results
Sound Card: $25
(here too, I'm hoping that's good enough for a conservative estimate for a compatible card, even if it's not a great one.)
CD-RW drive: $35
(That's a computer-show price, but not that unreasonable for simply watching sales etc, IMO)
Keyboard and Mouse: $25
That $25 is for a logitech marble mouse. Keyboard scrounged.
Monitor: $200
(Scrimping here, but hey, *some* monitor is going to cost $200 or less, and even a small LCD can be had for $300
That makes (in order) $(95, 297, 125, 50, 222, 264, 50, 25, 35, 25, 200)
Which, if I've just tossed the sums together correctly, comes to $1388. Rough number, since only some of those items include shipping cost etc, and obviously some of them guesstimates anyhow.
Now, subtracting certain things to arrive at a nicer price:
To make it a 512MB RAM system lowers it by $111 (new total, $1289)
Going with only one 120GB HD (hey, I've edited small videos on my 10GB iBook) subtracts $132 (new total $1157)
Going to a single Athlon 1800MP (dammit, any program that needs TWO of those is outright *nuts*!
Now, further scrimping on the basis that sound cards are ubiquitous and cheap ($10 at a computer show, saving $15) (and Yes, that I'll have a cheap one as a known limitation to this system), that I have an existing monitor, keyboard and trackball as well as a KVM switch to let me use them (letting me chop $225), that PC 2100 RAM can be had for $93/512MB (saving $18), that I could "scrape by" with a single 80GB drive instead ($85 shipped, saving $47) lets me cull another 47 + 18 + 15 + 225 for a total of $305.
Now, I'm down to a case / motherboard / single processor / video card / 80GB drive / firewire card / sound card, with scrounged keyboard and mouse, but the price is much more attractive - $727
Now, can anyone comment on whether such a system, though below the recommended list, would actually be a workable way to use Cinelerra?
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Can you do something similar with the setup you described? To be honest, I haven't tried Linux on my current desktop; I've been putting it off until I could find a setup that works well. When I do, I'll buy bigger harddrive and maybe even a new PC (I'm running a Compaq PIII 450) so I can archive a whole tape all in one shot. Ideally, I would hook up the camera, boot up my PC, pop in a blank CD, start the program, press play, go do something else for a while, come back in x hours and have a fresh VCD waiting for me.
science is a religion
There tend to be two bottlenecks when processing video on Intel platforms: render time and disk I/O. And render time is far more significant and less easy to fix.
Currently, Intel platforms with more than 512Megs of RAM enjoy only marginal performance benefits over 512Meg systems.
Most of your editing time is taken up waiting for your system to render that cross-dissolve, which you need to check multiple times before you get the pacing just right...
Dual processor systems and applications definately shorten your render time, and thus increase your productivity, if the NLE app supports SMP. Pay the extra $125 for the 2nd processor!!!
Using a RAID0+1 setup for your video/audio drive(s) helps, and especially does so when you have real-time processing cards doing the work, but not as much in this instance. Although RAID can shorten your time to shuttle huge video files around, it is really CPU and backplane which determine how quickly your system can edit video.
I read your comment right after I posted my own much more long-winded comment in the same vein:
0 61 585
;)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=37865&cid=4
Glad to see that we arrived at similar numbers through similar reasoning. I'm tempted to heat up the credit card and do some ordering, but I shouldn't
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
I am on smallpipe connection to the Net (56K), so whenever I need to download megabyte-programs, I have to use the "download managers" to assist me in downloading.
In that way, if the connection is severed during the downloading, I don't lose everything. The "download manager" will save the portion that I've downloaded, and then will continue, from the point of the very last byte of the last download, on the next session.
I have tried to download Cinelerra from Sourceforge, [ http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/heroines/hvirt
This is what I get when I use the "download manager" trying to download cinilerra from Sourceforge -
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/heroines/hvirt
and instead of the 7 megabyte file, I got a 10K file.
Can anyone please tell me what to do ?
Thanks in advance !
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
HeroineWarrior knows that it's using esoteric libraries, they even say so:
And who's to say that library changes and improvements don't make it back upstream? Programmers don't live in a vacuum -- otherwise they wouldn't be using outside libraries to begin with.Aside from that the code is full GPL, so it's not stealing if the source (and any library changes are distributed when the binary is distributed). So if you want to redistribute a more difficult to install version (without restriction) -- you can! Not only that but you can personally fork the project and start developing it as you see fit. The GPL gives you those rights. The authors of Cinelerra are just trying to minimize the difficulty that people may experience with installing the software while trying to share something they think other people will find useful.
And it's free! You don't HAVE to accept gift-horses, you know.
With the 1.0 release I cannot grab video cleanly without dropping hundreds of frames like I could with beta2. with 1.0 I can convert to opendivx though, which would crash on beta 2.
Anybody else seen this?
-- I speak only for myself.
IIRC, they have a disclaimer that says they are doing their development under gcc 3.x
maybe you should consider real network hardware. we have a large installation of Foundry Networks gear and we happily throw around terabytes of data daily.
nothing churns more happily than servers with fast storage abilities, multi-gigabit interfaces, and no network latency.
that and your mac has 64bit PCI slots- use them!
EOM
classless political system: the political theory or system in which all property and wealth is owned in a classless society by all the members of a community
BSD is along the lines of socialism, but some aspects of the GPL can also relate to that.
gwernol wrote: "The product names do not help here either."
...
What's wrong with "Cinelerra"? I frequently end up defending Ogg / Ogg Vorbis (which I happen to like, and think are no less euphonic than sterile-sounding MP3), but "Cinelerra" is one I figured nearly everyone would like. Easy to say, has the nice Cine- sound (like "telecine"), a little bit sexy but not trampish
Actually, it's one of the best software names, IMO. ("VirtualDub"? "Outlook"? "Kazaa"?) Do you have a better name in mind, and if so, What? (Serious question.)
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5