Slashdot Mirror
Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost?
hardDiamond asks: "I'm going to get engaged. I know my 4 C's. I know I'm going to get screwed by the jeweller, but that's okay: after all, a diamond engagement ring is a time-honoured tradition... NOT. Having checked out the goods, looked for the flaws, I found the biggest one of all. Diamond engagement rings are the creation of a well orchestrated advertising campaign for most of the last century - according to this article.
Would you buy one for the love of your life? I know my girlfriend would love a diamond, but ethically I have my doubts. Diseased-miners, child slave labour, cartel inflated prices... and as if that wasn't enough, diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price. So what have my fellow slashdotters done with regards to engagement rings? What's a good substitute for diamonds? My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one." I've never even thought about questioning such a time honored tradition, but now I'm curious. Have any of you looked at the issues surrounding diamonds and found them wanting? What alternatives have you found and were they acceptable?
After researching this a bit, one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence. Such diamonds, for want of a better term, have been named "conflict diamonds". For those of you interested in following up on this subject, here are a few more links:
Fatal TransactionsFor those of you who have a subscription to Science News, the cover story, this month, deals with this issue as well.
Conflict Diamonds: Sanctions and War
The Campaign to Eliminate Conflict Diamonds
The Kimberly Process, which will attempt to track diamonds to their origin. This is to begin in November.
Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost?
Do you love her? If so, then they're worth the cost.
NO CARRIER
There are none. The girlfriend will be bombarded w/her friends pissing her off w/the fact that she doesn't have one, and how dare her fiance not buy one for her.
My gf's brother just got engaged. His fiance announced this to my gf by saying, "here's mine, where's yours?"
Whether or not this is obnoxious is not the point. Her friends are going to do much the same.
Time honored is true, but expected is more the reality.
A proposal means you're asking her to dedicate the rest of her life to you, and yours to her. Give her what she really, really wants (a diamond). An engagement is a once-in-a-lifetime event; save your consumer ethics for more trivial occasions (anniversaries, Christmas, etc).
one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence
What percentage of gas sales do you think finance terrorism? Money goes from our hands to the gas companies to oil companies in the Mid-East to (possibly) terrorist organizations. Probably true about many other products as well...
Nike. Just jew it.
I bought my wife's engagement ring from a wholeseller. They're tough to get in with, but if you do a little research and pull it off, you can get a decent sized diamond for literally half the price a "real" jeweler would charge. I got a 1.21 carat for 5 grand. And the problem with the advertising campaign is that it's worked. She may not know the origins of her desire, but you're right, your girlfriend would like a diamond. Almost all of women would. Good luck.
I agree with most of your other points about the disgusting practices used to produce diamonds and market them.
It seems to me that the purpose of this article really isn't to ask a question, but instead to be a bully-pulpit to rally against the DeBeers monopoly. I don't know if "Ask Slashdot" is an appropriate place for this.
As for the tagged on question at the end, have you considered your fiance-to-be's birth stone? My grandmother had a beautiful ruby and silver engagement ring. If you're not looking for a ring, then it really depends on how much a traditionalist your girlfriend is. Just whatever you do, if you're going to skip the ring option, don't try to weasel out with something less than the cost of a diamond ring, or it's likely she'll suspect that money was the real motivation.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
My girlfriend told me not to WASTE our money and instead we spent three crazy weeks in Hawaii AND had money in the bank.
God I love her!
You spend ~$2k for a machine that crunches numbers and lets you escape into a virtual fantasy world for a few hours a day. The machine is outdated and depreciated when you buy it, and it just gets worse as time goes by.
The diamond on her finger reminds her of the moment she fell in love with you. The good times you share with her, and her undying devotion to you.
Do it for her! Put a price on how it will make her feel. If she understands how you feel about making the purchase... ALL THE MORE REASON TO DO IT FOR HER... show her you understand how she feels.
While diamonds may have a low resale value, that's not a critical point. Are you planning on selling this diamond any time soon? No. If you're fortunate enough you may have a better option, see if your grandmother's (or great grandmother's) engagement ring is in the family and available. That's both sensible and heart-touching.
oh, the mind of a woman.
Do you love her? If so, then they're worth the cost
Seriously. If you can't talk to each other about this, then you are fools to even consider marriage. If you would rather get /. opinions on this than talk it over with the gf, then you aren't ready.
Infuriate left and right
If it really bothers you that much, maybe she would be happy with an imitation diamond. She still gets the ring to show to her friends and to stand as... a symbol of commitment or what have you. With the money you save, spring for a really great honeymoon, or figure out some other way to spend the money that's memorable and perhaps more genuine then the ring. Then again, women are irrational and none of the above is likely to work. :)
Tradition? Gimme a friggin break. The US is too young to have traditions, kerr-rrrist. Women and diamond rings remind me of that movie, "The Gods Must be Crazy", where the natives find an empty Coke bottle and worship it as some kind of..umm...err...worshipped item. Seriously, women are like little monkeys when they see rings, but y'know, all it is, is a friggin rock attached to some shiny metal. "Oohh, look at shi-nee met-tal...perty, ain't it". Geez. Materialistic women need to get with reality and stop the pretentious b.s. If you love someone, it'll be in yer heart, not on a f@!*ckin finger. Leave the symbols to the symbol-minded (as a Carlinist I couldn't resist that one!). If you can't afford her, she's not worth it.
My wife is Japanese, and we didn't have to go through ANY of this lame b.s. We got married in Japan without a stadium-sized crowd and did a tea ceremony. There were no "trinkets" exchanged, only love expressed through ACTION. Now I'm all for diamond rings as a gift, or to show appreciation, but if a woman requires a ring for engagement - if it takes a manmade little rock and metal craft to make her smile, then her heart is in the wrong place.
My girlfriend made it VERY clear she didn't want a big fat-ass diamond on her hand; she wanted something special. Black Pearl was mentioned, and so I had a mutual jeweller friend whip up a nice ring that I presented to her in the back of a Checker Marathon taxicab in Kalamazoo Michigan.
The ring's main item is a BLACK PEARL. Let me tell you, that gets a lot more attention than any diamond.
It looks like
this and this.
At the last second, I asked that he throw a few token diamonds around the edge. They were tiny, almost ornamental. And the ring barely scraped four figures. Barely.
Best choice we ever had, avoiding the fat-ass diamond.
My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one.
Then BUY HER ONE!!!!!
I'm not married, but I am in a serious relationship and have been for about 4 years. I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you this, but if you love her, right now is not the best time to wage your anti-tradition diamond ban. You don't want to spend a ton? Buy a smaller diamond, you said yourself she will probably still want at least a small one.
And if resale value is a major concern, is this a person you really feel comfortable proposing to / marrying? Be sure before you buy the rock. And good luck!
Mark
I asked my fiancee (now wife) if she wanted a diamond engagement ring, with the full intent to buy whatever she wanted, even if I thought it was silly.
She thought it was silly too. She said, I don't want an engagement ring, I want a new bathtub!
So we got a double-ended old fashioned bathtub (and remodeled the bathroom around it), which we take a bath in together almost every day (it's large).
It's the single best decision we've made in our 4 years together, and I'm confident we'll still be saying that when its 40 years, and we're still taking baths together.
oops Hit the enter key instead of the tab... oh well.
Anyway, If you are about to get married I thought you would have known by now.
It's not about what you want.
Go ahead and mock me but most everyone I know that IS married will agree. Ones that have only "been dating a really long time" will argue with me till they're blue in the face... Untill they have been married for a couple years.
Please be patient, I'm a work in progress! --Alan Jackson
Much like the megahertz myth, the need for a diamond engagement ring has been cultivated through careful marketing and peer pressure.
But.
The cost of NOT getting this diamond ring may be the relationship itself. It may not occur right away (she might still accept your proposal) but this will be a major disappointment to a woman who has had an engagement ring (or a rock as my ex-girlfriend called it), and it just might set the tone for the rest of your time together.
As has been pointed out elsehwhere in this very thread, gasoline, diamonds, honey, opium, and a whole bunch of other products all contribute to terrorism or cruel treatment of our fellow humans or various other badnesses in the world.
In the end, though, it will be infinitely easier to get a fuel-efficient car and switch away from various other products than it will be to alter the mindset of the woman (and ALL of her friends) who considers not where it came from or how it got there, but merely that it is on her finger.
So, if you want to get married and start of on the right foot with her, you should of course shop for the best value you can find in your budget and so on, but yes, the diamond is worth it.
[save your energy... cede her victory on this one, fight the good fight when she wants to know why you are "wasting" so much money on a cable modem/DSL, fast graphics cards, etc.]
But basically, unless you pass the following test, I suspect that deep down you are looking for an excuse to be cheap:
Unless you do all of those things, I would posit that you are already contributing to unethical behavior with your participation in commerce. If you do do all those things, and your g/f isn't open to the no diamond idea although she will jump through those hoops, then she is being hypocritical.
I say buy her the diamond and have a wonderful life together. Coming from a happily engaged man (who both bought and used inheritted diamonds)
_sig_ is away
An engagement is a once-in-a-lifetime event; save your consumer ethics for more trivial occasions (anniversaries, Christmas, etc).
Absolutely. Be proud of those ethics so long as they don't really interfere with anything you care about.
Nope, no sig
It is planted in one of our city parks, is professionally cared for, and has a sign that declares My Love to Her. A ring would have been cheaper. The tree cost $6000.00 which would have bought a very nice rock.
Our wedding was under the tree. We are planning to buy a bench to place under the tree as soon as the city allows.
Get a free ipod.
Now, if DeBeers ever falls apart, diamonds will be worth about as much as it costs to put and polish them.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I know there are some people who go for the alternative side. We certainly like to try to spend our money in ways that have the most benefit.
The principle behind the diamond is to symbolize your commitment. You're telling her that you want to spend the rest of your life with her. Resale value? Are you sure that marriage is the right next step? Perhaps there are some more conversations to have.
I've been proudly and happily married to the love of my life for almost 2 years.
Better quality diamonds are able to be man made for cheaper. But, a good jeweler won't serve them. Volunteer to make up for your conscience. Show your love by finding a good jeweler, being honest, and buying what she deserves. First, find out why you're worrying about resale value and take care of it.
I was lucky. I married someone for whom funky stuff like integrity, thought, consideration, selflessness, originality were priorities. To her, the traditional goal of "it must be so big I can't lift my hand" was tacky, ostentatious, gaudy, all the hallmarks of a wannabe who needed validation from outside, rather than someone looking for something that had significance simply for what it was.
The end result for us was a third of a carat rub over setting on a really unique band. For her, it's perfect as it comes across as stylish, vastly more sophisticated and, her highest priority, she doesn't spend the rest of her life being scared of knocking a large rock out of a cheap setting.
I still managed to spend a fair bit of money, but that was on: getting it engraved (without her knowing) on the inside; on getting it rush ordered so I could still suprise her, even though we'd chosen it together; on finding the perfect time and place to do the proposing; on getting matching earings made to go with it. Those are all the subtle things that allowed me to put vastly more value in to it for her without buying in to a deliberate, tacky, hype.
So, like I said, it depends a lot on who you're marrying. If the biggest, gaudiest rock is simply the only way to feel she's valued, that's what you should get her - you chose that type of person. If style and the suble touches are what're important, congratulations, you've found someone who's going to appreciate everything you do for her, regardless of how well off you are at the time. That is the kind of woman I wanted to marry. :)
OK, now lets get back to bitching about Microsoft. This is getting sappy!
Family heirloom. Even before my wife and I got engaged, she told me she wanted a ring that had belonged to her great-grandfather's first wife who died in a pneumonia epidemic in 1908 or something. It's an absolutely beautifully detailed platinum ring with lots of filligree, etching and cutouts and a 1+ ct diamond. Appraisers have put in in the USD 6-8K range but I've also had jewelers tell us they couldn't make it themselves for less than $10K.
Smoke one if you've got one. If not, estate sales are a good way to go.
There's one thing computing teaches you, and that's that there's no point to remembering everything.
--Doug Copland
a friend at work just got married, and gosh her diamond is purty. honestly, sometimes i catch myself staring at it. but i'm not her, and someone please shoot me if i ever become so. she prances around like a poodle fresh from the salon now, as if she has suddenly become valuable as a person. don't buy into it. if two people are equally saturated with the propaganda, they should get along just fine. but if she is set on a ring and you are ethically against it (cheap is entirely another story), i'd say you two have bigger issues to deal with than just a diamond. i have as many unnecessary purses as the next girl, but i personally would run the other direction from a guy who presented me with a rock, because i want a partner, not a sheep. why on earth would i want the same ubiquitous, essentially unvaluable thing every other woman has? howabout a secret gift (and an exchange, no less!), just between the two of you? who is she getting married for anyway, her friends?
No. It is based on the concept that whether a woman enjoys sex or not, she should try to profit in some way (either by acquiring a happy marriage or by acquiring vaulable goods). A woman who does it only for pleasure is a whore.
My other first post is car post.
How politically correct...you wouldn't want to offend the guerillas/monsters that kill and mame innocent families and use diamond sales to further their warped causes.
I toured a jewelery manufacturing plant a couple years back and interviewed the head of the company. At least in the US, these diamonds were a major concern for the US jewelry industry...so much that the stores were making the suppliers sign pledges to the effect that they would never buy such diamonds.
The industry term is "BLOOD DIAMONDS" and I think we should refer to them as such in this discuss so as to not minimize or trivialize the effect they are having on the poor people in the regions in which they are found. Repeat after me...
"They are blood diamonds."
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
As a combination significant birthday and 1.9 year anniversary (how's that for geeky?), my wife and I selected for her a Canadian Diamond from EKATI.
:)
EKATI mines their diamonds in the Canadian Arctic, a couple hundred miles NorthEast of Yellowknife. The mine was set up via agreement with the local First Nations people. Yes, it's strip mining, but the impact is being mitigated as part of the environmental agreements with the government. The mining equipment is huge!
All of the processing, cutting, polishing are done in the local area. Native people with an interest have had the opportunity to learn how to evaluate, cut and polish the stones.
We paid a premium, perhaps 50% more than untracked (likely South African) diamonds. It is a very fine diamond as far as the ratings go. Along with the diamond came a detailed assay and certificate of authenticity from the Canadian government. The waist of the diamond is also laser etched with a polar bear, Ekati trademark, a unique serial number. Overall it was as special an item as we hoped it would be and we felt it is worth the higher price -- because we wanted to really know the history of the stone.
We purchased the diamond on a trip to Vancouver, BC -- don't forget to get your Goods & Services Tax refunded if you live in the US.
My wife was born in the Northwest Territories, so it is a little piece of home that she wears on her finger, and something that she finds reminds her how special a person she is... which was the point, entirely.
If they have no resale value, they you could buy a used diamond very cheaply and get a jeweler to put it in a new setting for you, and that would kill the market for new diamonds. They don't wear out, of course. "Diamonds are forever" and all that.
The used diamond market isn't like the used car market, where the resale value drops as soon as you drive your shiny new Mustang off the lot. That is, it's not that market prices are low -- it's that there is no market. Because De Beers has created the impression that diamonds are priceless (if not in monetary value, then in sentimental value), almost no one sells their used diamonds. And because no one sells them, no one expects to buy them either. This has completely eliminated the secondary market for diamonds -- outside of shady outfits like pawn shops, which can hardly be considered bastions of "fair market value".
The total lack of liquidity in the used diamond market means that De Beers can continue to have complete control over prices. Why is stifling liquidity just as important as stifling competition? Look at what happened to hardware companies like Cisco when the Internet bubble burst. As if it weren't bad enough that Cisco lost customers, they found that prospective customers were buying cheap, lightly used hardware off the dot-bombs at fire sale prices instead of from Cisco. This is even more important for De Beers, since a diamond has a considerably longer usable life than a router. The moral of the story: if you want to sell your product to everyone at ridiculous prices, without screwing yourself in the future by saturating the market with resalable goods, then do exactly what De Beers has done.
Cheers,
IT
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
No, the concept wasn't that. A woman who did it for profit was a whore. A woman who did it for pleasure was a slut.
DISCLAIMER FOR THE POLITICALLY CORRECT: The terms "whore" and "slut" are relevant to the time period referred to original posting. I am in no way, shape, or form, referring to anyone on Slashdot (or anyone they know) as a slut or a whore. Well, maybe a karma whore, but that's a different thing.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
Yes, I'm one of those few mythic creatures, a ./ poster with no Y chromosome. Though I'm not that chick-identified, here's some advice from the girl point of view:
1. Even the most progressive feminist can sometimes be profoundly cliche'd when thinking about marriage. Our society teaches and reinforces strong ideas and imagery around weddings and marriage from a very early age -- heterosexual women are steeped in cultural tradition around marriage. It's hard to fight decades of "this is every girl's dream".
2. If she wants a diamond, get her a diamond. Don't make her spend the next 50 years of her life looking down at her hand and thinking, "Instead of a diamond ring, I got a symbol of his political and social stance."
3. If you don't want to support new diamond sales, consider estate jewelry. For a reasonable price, you can buy a ring that has a sense of history to it, that is a beautiful thing, and is less charged with the modern baggage. For that matter, an estate jewelry specialist can also help you make the choice. Talk to a pro! Explain you want something beautiful and unique, that you want to spend X dollars, etc.
4. If you decide not to go with the diamond, give your bride-to-be *positive* language around your choice. Don't get her a different kind of ring because you don't like the social ramifications of diamond mining -- get her a different kind of ring because you don't feel a run-of-the mill diamond ring accurately reflects the special and unique qualities in her and in your relationship.
5. Don't use not getting a diamond as an excuse to skimp on the cost. Buying a 300.00 ring instead of a 3000.00 ring 'because diamonds are tainted with the blood of workers' says you were looking for an excuse to be cheap. It's not about the money, but it's not just the thought that counts, either.
6. Size *does* matter, but it cuts both ways. Dicks *and* diamonds can both be tooooo big.
One point, however: that article is 20 years old. Obviously the history is still accurate, but is the current diamond situation still the same? The article seemed to be implying that all sorts of changes where just around the corner - did any of that actually happen?
You're fond of the word 'probably', huh?
Materialistic people are more successful on the chart of... materialism. No shit Sherlock.
I hear people who train hard can run faster and people who study harder pass more tests. Wow!
I also hear that people who value happiness and overall wellbeing over materialist possessions live longer, get less heart desease, have less miscarraiges, and have less mongey kids - do a newscientist.com search if you subscribe - its all in there.
There is a HUGE difference between materialism and evolutionary competitiveness. Justify your greed this way if you must - but don't lie to yourself!
First my qualifications: I have been married for 16 years to one wonderful woman. We have 4 kids.(OK I'm older than most /. ers) I can honestly say, that I have loved every minute of our marriage. I love making this woman happy and she makes me grin like a five year old in a candy store.
My advice: Look seriously at your relationship. If you can't talk about the realities of engagement and marriage honestly and openly, step back and improve the relationship before moving forward.
Then, talk with her and find out what she would like. That doesn't have to be a matter-of-fact, in your face arguement. Be smart and LISTEN (by the way, that's what women REALLY want.) Then do whatever you can really afford to make her dreams come true. Put some thought into it. Make it original and meaningful. The fore-thought must show through!
My story: I knew my gf came from a very traditional background. She worked with a gossipy bunch. She isn't materialistic. She IS sentimental. I wanted to give her a ring and an EXPERIENCE she could brag about to her friends and would always remember. Since my natural father died when I was young, my mom gave me her rings from him. I had them cleaned up and packeged, etc. Since the ring wasn't expensive I had some money to spend on the engagement night. (How you ask IS important.) I took her to a fancy seafood dinner (her favorite), then a fun play. On the way home, I stopped at an old fashioned park by the lake. There under the moonlight, we sat on a park bench under a small streetlight. The old oak trees were draped with spanish moss. I knelt down on one knee, swallowed hard and asked. She still brags about that night to her friends!
So: remember the ring is a symbol. Symbols mean something to very specific people. Find the symbol that will mean the right thing to both of you. BTW, If you are trying to justify being cheap, you are doomed!
I did the diamond thing when we were first married. Big rock in a big setting, stuck out like a zit on Prom Night. We did it because we didn't know any better and it was what was expected of us.
After we had a kid she had to stop wearing it because she would spear him with it every time she picked him up. So, she started wearing a plain gold band. After a couple years, she decided she wanted a nice ring again, but she didn't want her wedding ring. She went out and bought a better band where the stones didn't stick up and she used zirconia. Her rationale is that only she will know and she would rather spend the money on a minivan than a f*#%ing diamond.
When you are young and in love you do stupid things like spending $5000 on a diamond. When you are older and your relationship takes on a more comfortable feel, you look at the DeBeers ads and chuckle at how silly it all was. Then, you go out and buy a minivan.
So, buy her whatever feels right for you but don't invest too much sentiment in it. It's just a ring. But, don't forget to send her flowers every couple months and be sure to send them to her work where all the other women in her office can see them. Bring home her favorite ice cream when she calls and you can tell she's in the dumps. Rub her feet when she's pregnant. Those are the things that really show her you care.
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