MIT vs. Las Vegas

spellcheckur writes "Techno-mag-turned-fashion-rag Wired Magazine has an article about MIT kids counting cards in Las Vegas. I wish I could have made seven figures while I was still in college. Maybe I should get a how-to book." Also, any chance is a good chance to mention The Eudaemonic Pie.

Comments

Counting Cards

[tomhudson]

Well, at least they're showing that they have some math skills (better than squeegee kids)

So, this is what geeks look like at MIT :-)

[ziriyab]

I know the names and pictures have been changed to protect the guilty, but wired should've at least tried to get some real geeks in those pictures :)

Re:So, this is what geeks look like at MIT :-)

[AssFace]

yeah - they said in the article even that they used Asian kids because they drew less attention than white kids throwing around money.
the whole point was to not draw attention to their winnings.
then in the pic they have a bunch of frat boys.

bastards.

Re:So, this is what geeks look like at MIT :-)

[DNS-and-BIND]

You know why they picked kids of that particular ethnicity? Because a large percentage of the high-rollers in Vegas are Asian organized crime figures. This isn't flamebait, ask any dealer or pit boss. Their sons come over with money a thousand times more contaminated than any deBeers funds, and lose heavily. They then return home, gather more funds, and lose more in Vegas the next time.

Re:Them MIT kids are SWUFT!

[tomhudson]

actually, 306 or 408, because the casinos use 6 to 8 decks shuffled together to make it harder for counters.

Jeez... hasn't this been going on for ever?

[shoptroll]

Man... i swear we have nothing better to do... University people have been counting cards in casinos for years... I don't think this is anything totally profound... I know for a fact its been done for at least 40 years by geeks... Read Geeks 2.0: A History of the Internet for a good story about some people almost getting busted while trying to see if the doppler effect could be used to predict the landing of a roulette ball in play...

Re:Jeez... hasn't this been going on for ever?

[gpinzone]

It has been done. The way it works is three people have a transmitter attached to each of them. A switch located in their their respective shoes is uses as a signal as each man/woman taps when the ball reaches a certain location on the wheel. A computer calculates the velocity and at what point the ball will drop. I'm assuming anyone betting this way would have to get in a bet at the last minute for this to work.

150% returns to investors.

[garcia]

This guy makes this card-counting ring sound like an action movie (something like Rounders, sorta). I think that Vegas in general is a place full of crooks, Casinos and players alike.

This was almost as bad as a Travel channel special on Vegas. It's an advertisement to the public trying to tempt them to go there.

If we tell them that THEY too can afford to lose money, they will come!

Re:150% returns to investors.

[ergo98]

There was an article on Kuro5hin about a year ago dealing specifically with blackjack card counting, and it really is a fantastic read. It discusses the types of people that you find at the average casino, and it doesn't paint a pretty picture.

The travel channel special is just the beginning though: There have been documentaries discussing the fact that the mega media companies, many of whom own one or more huge casinos in Las Vegas, imbue movies with pleasant impressions of casinos regularly: Seldom do you see a casino image that is row upon row of sad, lonely elderly people mechanically pulling the lever for hours on end, wearing diapers not because of incontinence but rather just to avoid having to leave their lucky slot machine (because a win is always just one pull away, right?). Instead it's playboys and girls: Brad Pitt/Jennifer Aniston types winning big.

Re:150% returns to investors.

[Quikah]

I don't se what is so unpleasant about a casino. I don't go to Vegas to make money. I go to Vegas to have fun. Play some cards, ogle the hot cocktail waitresses, have some drinks, gorge on cheap food, maybe see a show...if you happen to make some money then that is a bonus. Sure there are lots of losers in the casinos, but I generally don't assosiate with those people.

Re:150% returns to investors.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Yeah, there's something about card counters, and gamblers in general, that makes them inveterate braggarts. They always have winning sessions, and if they have a losing session, they're always "up for the trip." The 150% figure is just ridiculous. Even with perfect counting, a 50% advantage over the house just can't be had. I know, I've done it. I've never been barred, because I am a low, low, low roller ($5 table? yikes, too rich, let's find a $2 or $3 table somewhere) but a properly done count gives only a few percent advantage over the house. Even shuffle-tracking only adds a few percent extra.

Additionally from the 50% figure, they make several obvious errors. They sit down and have a drink? Card counters don't drink alcohol. They drink water, or juice. One mental lapse and poof, there goes your advantage over the house. The article just smells bad, like most articles written about "winning" players.

Re:150% returns to investors.

[hawk]

Your attitude puts you squarely in the overwhelming majority of visitors to Las Vegas.

Contrary to popular believe, Vegas is *not* in the gambling business--it's in the fantasy business, with gambling playing a central role in the fantasy. You step off the plane for your three days or a week, and you're practically in an alternate universe. Men who would never enter a strip club will take their wives to a "topless revue"--and *she* will enjoy it. Most people have planned how much they're going to lose, and there's a thrill in the possibility that maybe they will win win.

Indian and other local gaming is another story. THese almost always are the gambling business--there's a fundamental difference between local gambling and destination gambling; the first is quite harmful, while the second is mere fantasy.

hawk

Re:150% returns to investors.

[gpinzone]

The technique they were describing in the article is similar to what gamblers call "Wong-ing" (named after the man who invented it.) Essentially it means that you have a bunch of people (spotters) watching the hands at different tables for a lot of low cards being delt. They signal to the desginated player with their big bankroll to sit down and bet heavily and then leave the table. I never understood how they were able to do this since most casinos I've gone to there were few open seats at the BJ pits. Table hopping seems impractical.

Re:150% returns to investors.

[DNS-and-BIND]

Ken Uston did the same thing back in the 70s. Nothing new here.

Glazed over facts

[Superfreaker]

The article states the current key issues in a passing sentence- that the chances of being able to do this are basically nil now. Not that they are watching, but that casinos use a 6 deck shoe that is shuffled 2/3 of the way through (before the real advantage begins). Having frequented Atlantic City, the process of counting cards in the privacy of home is one thing, doing it with bells, flashing lights, scantily clad cocktail waitresses, and the most important distraction, the other players, is quite another. The article was a fun read. Made me envious.

Re:Glazed over facts

[gclef]

And, to make things more complicated, some of the casinos in Las Vegas are now using shuffling machines. It's not clear how these machines work, but I'm sure the casinos are paying attention to the math research that shows that some shuffling techniques do not actually maximize randomness.

Re:Glazed over facts

[CoreyG]

I don't know what Atlantic City you went to, but the scantily clad cocktail waitresses I saw were not something to be distracted by. The prostitutes on the other hand...

Re:Glazed over facts

[Edrick]

The distractions are not the main concern as they can be blocked out with practice over time...the REAL issue is being able to appear to the rest of the people around you as an average lucky schmuck. Most card counters are very quiet at the table because they have so much going through their heads --- or even worse, they try to act "normal" and in the process make fools of themselves.

This is a psychological exercise as much as one of memory and calculation. It is akin in some ways to cheating a lie detector test, something that few people can manage.

If you are playing for high stakes and to take the casino to town, then this is a much greater worry than if you are just hopping in for a few hours, but still is relevant.

Re:Glazed over facts

[_ph1ux_]

the best shuffling machine out right now uses the following method (for simplicity sake - Ill explain with one deck):

there are 52 cards in a deck.
the machine picks a number at random, say 42.
it grabs card 42 and puts it in a slot
it then slects a number at random (now out of 51)
it takes that card and puts it in the slot.

you tell the machine how many decks its holding - it then selects the random number from the total range its holding....

apparently this is the "most random card shuffler available"

Re:Glazed over facts

[nelsonal]

I believe that you can still find single card games in Atlantic City if you look hard enough. The secret to winning if you have a slight odds advantage is bankroll your betting very well. Thats all the casinos are doing, they know they have an advantage, keep a large bankroll and let the law of large numbers work in thier favor.
Be careful if you try to go down now to make your fortune, rumor has it that the enforcers are being reintroduced to Vegas since the corporate types are losing money on the casinos.
Counting cards isn't that difficult, the easiest methods simply have you add 1 for cards below a six and subtract 1 for 10s, you have to divide your count by the number of decks in the shoe. Highly favorable situations (lots of 10s and few low cards) favor players who get larger payouts for blackjacks, and unfavorables (lots of low cards) favor dealers who are less likely to bust when they hit on those high hands where they have to hit. Then you increase and decrease your bet to get large returns during the favorable times and reduce them during unfavorables.
Counting all the cards rapidly takes practice, and learning how to change your bets, without attacting attention, to provide adaquate returns is the main skillful part of counting cards.
If you just want to relax, Craps with odds cut the house edge to a fraction of a percent, or Baccarat only involves 1 decision with odds nearly as favorable as strategy blackjack. Its also fun to watch the ceremony involved in a Baccarat game.

Re:Glazed over facts

[flonker]

Lie detecters (Polygraphs) aren't difficult to fool. See http://antipolygraph.org/ for more info.

There are many other flaws with them. In short, they're only 80-90% reliable under the best circumstances. See the webpage. It makes for an interesting read.

Re:Glazed over facts

[JohnPM]

I believe that you can still find single card games in Atlantic City if you look hard enough.

Single card games are also known as 2-bit magic tricks - "Is this your hidden card?" :)

Single deck games are fun too though.

Re:Glazed over facts

[geekoid]

1 deck or 6 decks the odds are the same, there are x amount of cards over 8 and x amount of card under 8. really not that hard to keep track.

Now my grandfather could tell you ever card value and suit that had gone by, in forward or reverse order.

Those distraction are minimized after you get used to your surrondings.

Re:Glazed over facts

[DNS-and-BIND]

Additionally, due to idiot card counters, double- and single-deck games have begun paying a mere 6:5 on blackjack rather than the standard 3:2. Any gambler will tell you this is a Bad, Bad Thing. The casual players don't even notice that the payoff has changed, but the real players certainly do, and it's due to every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinking he can count cards, come to Vegas, and become the next Uston.

Re:Glazed over facts

[DNS-and-BIND]

You don't get to cut the cards every time. The cut rotates around the table from player to player. They'd only get to perform their cut once every few deals, unless they can find a table to play alone at (good luck finding one at the Hard Rock, even in the hi-limit salon).

Re:Glazed over facts

[gpinzone]

The casinos that offer less decks make up for it by modifying the rules in their favor. Only allowing double downs on 9,10,A, no late surrendering, no resplitting, etc.

Re:Glazed over facts

[Wavicle]

I think "Glazed over" is too polite a term. In fact, I call "bullshit" on most of the article. The author either purposefully "dressed up" the story, or some people pulled wool over his eyes and he didn't pay attention...

Why are all these "intelligent" individuals carrying around so much hard cash? Why would you carry $200,000 in hard cash through an airport security checkpoint? Did it not occur to these intelligent individuals that there are professional thieves in Vegas who look for fools who wander the streets carrying large winnings? Why are they shoving chips down their pants? If you win $100K at a table, you can be sure the eye in the sky is going to watch your every move. If you hand off the bag to someone who shoves it in his pants.... DON'T YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO RAISES SUSPICION?!

It didn't bother them that they weren't doing anything technically illegal? Hello! Fake IDs? Isn't that a felony?

A crowded area so that the conversation could not possibly be recorded? Didn't this surveillance pro know that they make shotgun mics to pick out voices in a crowded stadium? And what about that TV camera transmission thing? There is a lot of metal in casinos and all sorts of EMF noise. Multipaths abound. This may have been true, but since I was incredulous over so much of the article I figured I'd hit this one as well. *HOW* was a high quality signal transmitted from a hidden camera going through the metal, concrete, and noise of the casino making it out? And what about the person wearing gloves? Can you handle cards while wearing gloves in a casino? I've never seen anybody do this. And marking the cards with a radioactive isotope and using a geiger counter? Huh? The average density of tagged cards in the shoe is going to be fairly constant, I can't believe that distances of maybe 20 cards are going to result in noticeable changes from the distance the geiger counter was from the shoe.

Security came to intimidate someone in the middle of the night, and forced entry into the room? If anything Casinos are VERY CONSCIOUS of the legal rules surrounding what they do. This just doesn't sound like them. They will usually wait for the morning, then tell the person they have to leave. They don't drag them down to the basement if this looks like the person's first offense. How do you think 7/12 jurors would vote in a civil action for wrongful imprisonment by a multi-billion dollar establishment? Casinos don't drag you to the basement unless they have compelling evidence.

Blackjack teams have been around since at least the 70's. In the 80's the casinos got good at spotting them and sharing information. Seeing this sort of thing happen in the 90's? Huh? The first time I read about this was in the early 90's... It's not like the casinos just figured this one out, it had been in print for years prior.

Maybe I'm all wrong... But this doesn't match my experience in the casinos and really sounds like mostly bullshit. Some of what they did is real... there was a time it was easy to do. But most of the article sounds like dressed up cloak and dagger social engineering bullshit.

MIT Cost

[SamiousHaze]

Interesting to me that the kids who have the cash (or are given the cash) to go to MIT feel the need to try and rip off the casinos...

Re:MIT Cost

[paiute]

You don't have to have the cash. MIT is need-blind admissions. You just have to have the brains. MIT may be the closest thing to a meritocracy in higher ed. You can't buy your way in. Even if your dad built them a new building, you have the same chance to get in as the janitor's kid.

Re:MIT Cost

[Fat Casper]

...feel the need to try and rip off the casinos...

Duh- they're hackers, and this is everything from math to social engineering to just plain fun.

What's the reasoning for a bunch of really bright geeks to take on the house (legally) when even the laws are in the house's favor? Because they believe that they can do it. The money's just icing; how they keep score.

Re:MIT Cost

[nathanm]

Interesting to me that the kids who have the cash (or are given the cash) to go to MIT feel the need to try and rip off the casinos...

They're not ripping off the casinos. They're using their natural talents, superior intellect, and some training and practice to win at blackjack, playing by the rules.

Casinos, on the other hand, bar card counters. Ensuring they keep profiting from poor old retirees and others who don't understand basic probability. Reminds me of a /. sig I've seen: The lottery is a tax for people who are bad at math.

Re:MIT Cost

[Bizaff]

I have never seen, nor will I ever see, how this is "ripping off" casinos.

Using a little prob and stats to get up on the house in which almost every game GUARANTEES you will lose over time is not wrong. It's well within in the rules to look at the cards being played, and it's well within the rules to bet what you want, when you want.

It is kinda funny that the only way the house can win against people this organized is to take its ball and go home.

Re:MIT Cost

[fishbowl]

"You don't have to have the cash. "

The $36,000 per semester has to come from SOMEWHERE.

Re:MIT Cost

[cybermage]

It's illegal to count cards in a casino.

Ummm... No, it's not illegal. If a casino spots a card counter, all they can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse, you can be charged with trespassing.

Casinos want people to believe it's illegal and actively encourage such beliefs, but it's not. As long as you don't tamper with the game, you're not cheating. Here are some other non-cheats:

• Observe how the dealer reacts to their hole card. Some dealers will give a consistent visual tell when their hole card makes 21. Spot it, and you're right to insure when normally only an idiot would.
  
• In roulette, track the numbers by dealer in relationship to their relative positions on the wheel. Lazy dealers can make the game VERY non-random.
  
• In craps, bad dealers can forget to take down some loosing bets as much as 25% of the time. Spot a dealer who does this and remind him to pay your winning bets and let him forget your losing bets.
  
• In many games, without making any effort, cards will be revealed to you that shouldn't be. (e.g., a neighbor may show you his hand) If you see other cards, through no effort of your own, that knowledge gives you an edge without cheating.
  

Using any information available to you without action on your part is not cheating. Counting cards, spotting roulette fields, and dealers with bad procedure are all legit player advantages.

A casino may ask you to leave for any reason. You might be winning due to pure luck, and they can still ask you to leave. If they think you're actually cheating (i.e., marking cards; switching dice) they'll have you arrested.

Re:MIT Cost

[sammy baby]

Actually, it isn't.

It's against the house rules to count cards, but it's not illegal. You try cheating some other way, and that's punishable by jail time. For counting, they'll just kick you out (and maybe try to scare the piss out of you in the process.)

Reread the article.

Re:MIT Cost

[VikingBerserker]

Even if your dad built them a new building, you have the same chance to get in as the janitor's kid.

I dunno, I think the janitor's more likely to actually have a key...

Re:MIT Cost

[SerpentMage]

That is what gets to me too. When I read the article the "intelligence" agency considered cheaters and odd's players both bad. Gee whiz!

Odd's players are legal and only play the odds to improve their situation. Cheaters are that cheaters.

The Gambling houses should be forced to let in people who consistently win. Because those that consistently loose and are forced to pay debts in interesting ways, etc are always allowed in. From a social point of view I have to say casinos are scum. They want people to beg and squander their money, while not taking any of the responsibility.

Re:MIT Cost

[ostiguy]

Thats because MIT gets 1000s of applicants who are some combo of valedictorians, 4.0's, and who have not gotten in fights.

Its either harvard or mit who could field entire classes of valedictorians of high schools if they so chose.

ostiguy

Re:MIT Cost

[sammy baby]

For the record, it's on page 5:

Getting caught is no small affair. Cheating at cards in Nevada can carry a sentence of up to 10 years. Card counting, on the other hand, will merely get you kicked out of the casino for good. But to Griffin and the surveillance establishment, the distinction between cheaters and counters is irrelevant. "Our job is to provide the casinos with information to explain why someone is winning," Griffin says. "It's up to the casinos as to what they want to do with the information."

Re:MIT Cost

[DNS-and-BIND]

Gaming is entertainment.

Casinos do not allow winning players. Winning players are not being entertained, they are working .

Re:MIT Cost

[NoData]

Have you ever played casino blackjack? If the dealer has blackjack in the hole, the hand is over and players never play period. Maybe you're suggesting that when the dealer peeks, they tell if their hand is high (like 20, for example).

But this is only relevant in some single to triple deck games as sometimes played out West, where the players still get to handle the cards and are dealt one card down. Most casinos (and, in fact, all Atlantic City casinos) use electronic systems to check for dealer blackjack. The 10-valued cards (face + 10s) and aces have black marks in the cards. When the dealer is dealt an ace or 10 up, the dealer slides the cards into a groove equipped with a photosensitive element and an LED. If the card has the mark in the corner, the LED lights, dealer has blackjack and the hand is over.

(BTW, yes, aces and 10s have the mark on different sides of the card (long vs. short), so the dealer simply orients the cards appropriately given what the up card shows.)

Re:MIT Cost

[Suppafly]

You obviously don't understand how the whole financial aid system works if you think that money comes from the students.. at most pricey universities, a huge proportion of the students pay very little of their tutition.. the rest is made up from scholarships and grants. The part you are expected to pay is your estimated family contribution, the rest can easily be gotten through grants and financial aid if you understand how to work the system.

Re:MIT Cost

[fishbowl]

That may be how it used to work. Replace what you said about grants and scholarships with loans and you might be getting close.

Re:MIT Cost

[Suppafly]

if you borrow the max which is like 3 grand for a freshmen and your parents kick in the estimated family contribution and that still doesnt come close to the tutition amount, it is fairly easy to cover the difference with grants and scholarships, esp. if you are the caliber of student that goes to mit. If you are extremely poor or your parents are its even easier.. I know several people who are basically paid to attend college because their estimated family contribution is nearly zero so they get first dibs on map granps and various other free monies that universities are forced to give out.. not sure how it is in every state, but this is pretty consistant with IL and several other states where I know people.

Re:MIT Cost

[God! Awful]

You don't have to have the cash. MIT is need-blind admissions.

I dunno. I know MIT will give you financial aid, but you have to prove you absolutely need it. They may require you to explore other options (e.g. your parents selling their house). I had a friend who was accepted at MIT but he didn't go because he couldn't get financial aid.

-a

Re:MIT Cost

[cybermage]

Have you ever played casino blackjack?

Actually, I deal can deal the game but cannot stand playing it. In most places in the US, the dealer gets one card down and one card up. If the up card is an ace, the players are offered a chance to insure their hand against a blackjack. The dealer is supposed to settle insurance bets before checking their "hole" card, but they don't always.

Anyway, if the dealer has an Ace or Ten showing, they have to check their hole card and in most places the dealer knows the value of the hole card once they've checked. Some dealers can give away the value through body language; many don't even realize they do it. If the dealer has a 10 showing and a 5 in the hole, the dealer knows they are likely to bust. If they give away this fact reliably, you can alter your play accordingly. If the deck is rich in 10's, you can go to town against a dealer with 15 or 16.

Re:Name Calling

[msgmonkey]

There's no such thing as an unbiased news source, everyone's got an agenda.

Re:Old News

[einer]

Really old news:

This happened in the days of the single deck. This actually caused the use of the six deck shoot (or shoe or whatever).

I read the article in Wired, thought "Hey, I could do this" then realized that it can't be done anymore... Oh well... Anyone else know of any get rich quick schemes that work? ;)

Seven Figures In College?

[Myriad]

I wish I could have made seven figures while I was still in college.

I don't know about you Timothy, but I wouldn't mind making seven figures now.

Re:Seven Figures In College?

[Scaba]

What are you talking about? I make seven figures right now.

Of course, two of those figures are to the right of the decimal point...sigh.

Re:Odds

[EnderWiggnz]

best odds on teh floor is bacarat, betting on the player, *truly* 50/50...

of course the game is as exciting as flipping a coin, but oh well...

second best is craps.

third is BJ

Ripping off the Casinos? Nope

[evilned]

Sorry, but counting cards is not illegal, its not cheating. Its just a highly developed way to play blackjack. Now the casino's have the right not to let you play for what ever reason they decide, but they can't arrest you for counting cards, they can only kick you out and ask you not to come back. Considering its one of the only ways the house can be beaten legitimately, I say more power to anyone that does this.

Re:Ripping off the Casinos? Nope

[cybermage]

I know it's a small distinction, but I think that the moment you move away from one individual's math and observation skills, and towards a team approach you have crossed the (admittedly fuzzy) ethical line between skill and cheating.

I concur. The general rule of thumb I've been taught as a dealer was that an individual can use any knowledge they gather about the game to their advantage as long as the information is gathered passively. Working with a team isn't passive.

Of course, the casino can boot you for any reason they want, so ...

Re:Ripping off the Casinos? Nope

[sckeener]

Agreed.

This should be considered a tax. Those bad at math pay and those too smart to breed will now have the chance to reproduce.

Shouldn't the EPA be involved? Something about the endanger math student.

Re:Ripping off the Casinos? Nope

[Hrothgar The Great]

Yes, but the only reason they need a team is to keep the casino from figuring out that they're counting cards. Any one of their spotters could do it on their own (that Kevin Lewis guy goes and does just this at the end of the article), except that the casinos are wise to those tactics. The teamwork is to throw off the eyes of the casino so that they can use their skill to win at the game. It's not cheating at all! It's like a game within a game.

Quote

[MjDascombe]

To quote an old freind of mine : "Whats the point in counting cards, you know there are always going to be 52."

Re:Quote

[Jonny Ringo]

Not if Homer's the dealer

Rules for stud draw poker! You're suppose to take these out of the deck!

Re:Quote

[jareds]

but, that's the point in card counting: sometimes the casino loses a few so the count might come out to 51 or 50. if you play for a while you can figure out which cards are missing, and boy, then the casinos better watch out!

Uh, no. While you could certainly make use of that if it happened, I don't think it's likely to. Card counters keep track of what cards have already been played, because they know they won't be played again until the deck is reshuffled.

Cheating Roulette

[plasticpixel]

The article was a great read. It reminds me of a story about some 'techies' that built the shoe computer that helped them predict where a Roulette marble would drop. Apparently they would use the computer to calibrate the wheel's spin and the marble against each other and then try to calculate the region of the wheel the ball would land. I figure that if you can at least know which half of the wheel you're going to land the marble in, you've already got a hedge on the house. If anyone has any links to that story please post.

Someone should make a "Ocean's Eleven" style movie about this type of stuff.

Personally, I stick to Craps. The odds are nearly even if you stick to the Pass line. Most people I've seen playing the game love to play all the sucker bets instead. At least I usualy walk out with my original money in my pocket and a few free beers in my tummy. :)

Re:Cheating Roulette

[bovinewasteproduct]

Craps, my game...:)

Actually, with a free-odds bet, both pass and don't pass are in your favor by a small margin (about 4 percent). Stay away from anything in the center and you'll be fine...:)

The three games I play in a casino are, in order, craps, pai-gow poker and baccarat, all three are low house odds. Baccarat is rare, just when I feel lucky. The other two I can play for hours on a couple of hundred dollars, just soaking up comps having fun.

If you just out to have fun, the big secrets are, one, be polite ,and two, always tip the dealer; they will remember it! At craps play this helps alot...:)

BWP

Re:Cheating Roulette

[_ph1ux_]

Ya Craps is a fun game... I have played a lot in Reno - but my first trip to Vegas will be beginning of september...

I know the game rather well - my ex-father in law was a pit boss who taught me how to play.

I play the pass line for the most part. On come out bets I throw a dollar or two dollar (depending on table rules) on Yo (11) or C&E (11 & 7) - this has very good odds if you hit it.

also about every 4th or 5th bet I will throw a few dollars in the field - with hopes of hitting a 12 (pays triple)

but yes tipping the dealers is very important. Also - dont just tip them, bet for them... if the bet wins, they get much more than you would have tipped them in the first place. throw a few on a number for the dealers....

this does two things:

they watch your betting style, and tell you when to play on certain bets.

when you get rather drunk - they watch out for where your money is, and keep track of your bets. (and no not for the house... some are really good about trying to help the better win)

looking forward to playing in vegas. But never bet with money you cant afford to lose.

Re:Cheating Roulette

[jhaberman]

I absolutely LOVE Pai-Gow Poker... I can sit at a Pai-Gow table for hours and hours. Soaking up free drinks and earning comps.

Makes my trips to Vegas worthwhile!

Jason

Re:Cheating Roulette

[Pfhreakaz0id]

ummmm. no. The "odds" bet has Zero edge. Nada. You get paid based on the odds of the event happening. For instance Odds on a point of ten (this is behind the pass line) pays $2 for every $1 wagered. This is because there are six ways to lose ( six ways to roll 7: 1-6, 6-1, 5-2, 2-5, 4-3, 3-4) and only three ways to win ( 5-5, 6-4, 4-6) 6:3 = 2:1. This is, to my knowledge, the ONLY bet in a casino which has no house edge (in other words, in the long run, the casino makes no money from it. That's why you usually don't get comp credit for odds bets)

BUT, to be able to place that bet, you have to place a pass bet, which DOES have a small house edge (1.414%). This is why casino's limit the size of the odds bets to some multiple of the size of the pass line (or don't pass line) bet. When you see an advertisement for 3x craps, that means you can place 3 times your pass line bet.

Want some good, cheap entertainment while gambling? Forget slots. Go play craps. Ask the dealer for help. Just play the pass line for the minimum (usually $5, but you can find cheaper in downtown Vegas) and the max odds behind it unless it's out of your $$$ range. Cheer like a mad heyena, drink a lot, and under no circumstances say "seven" out loud. Craps players are a superstituious lot.

Re:Cheating Roulette

[geekoid]

When I worked n a casino, every dealer hated when people made bets for them. Bird in the hand and all that.

the most importnat thing is, don't get drunk.

Re:Cheating Roulette

[DNS-and-BIND]

Hahaha...you play the field? YOU PLAY THE YO? Bahaha, those are some of the worst bets on the table. Your dad might have known how to run a table, but he didn't know squat about how to bet. Now, run off to the Wizard of Odds' site and do some studying. Craps is a negative-expectation game, even with 100x odds at the Stratosphere. The yo has a whopping 11.11% house advantage. Even the field with 3x on the 12 still gives at 2.78% advantage. By contrast, a pass line bet with 10x odds is a measly 0.184% advantage for the house.

You're partially correct about tipping the craps dealers. Yes - a properly tipped dealer will remember your bets, and even make payoff errors in your favor! But dealers hate when you gamble with their tip money. Nothing worse than having a player make the decision to give you a tip, and have your hard-earned tip squandered on a lousy hardway bet with a ~10% house advantage. The dealers would just rather have the money...toss a chip or two towards the dealer and sing out "for the boys."

Re:Cheating Roulette

[_ph1ux_]

the point was I do those bets every once and a while... like I said - maybe after 4 or five rounds of winning.

I have hit the YO many times - and 1. it only costs 1$ and 2. it pays 36 to one.

the field - like I said, you put a dollor or two in the field *once in a while* and only when you are up.. if it hits a 12 you get triple.

it isnt about the odds of winning... its about enjoying the game. and it makes you feel good if you put some money in a yo or field bet randomly and hit it.

Also - I only bet with money I don mind losing.. I go to have fun - not tout my statistical superiority.

In my experience, playing a bet one in a while for the dealers and winning is very beneficial. if you never tip them and only bet then I could see how they would not like that - but if you tip AND bet for them it helps.

Re:Cheating Roulette

[Pfhreakaz0id]

Royale has a $1 blackjack table (at least the last time I was there). Usually pretty crowded. But they have several $3 tables (which is two deck, slightly better odds). Plus, it backs up to the bar, fullfilling both my wife's requirements. Cheap gambling, quick drinks.

Doesn't matter if they count them or not...

[tgd]

Dealers have to follow the house rules no matter what they think the next card may be.

If they have a hand below 17, they have to hit, no matter what If the table's rule is hit on soft 17, they have to hit no matter what. Doesn't matter if they know you've got a blackjack, or they're positive the next card is going to bust them.

You're right, though, card counting is perfectly legal. Most casinos don't have a problem with it until you start to win a lot. At that point, they can't have to arrested, but they have no obligation to allow you to keep playing.

(Also, the house advantage isn't anywhere near 90%, its a couple percent at best, depending on the rules you end up playing with)

Re:Doesn't matter if they count them or not...

[garcia]

see that is a problem for me.

That was like the time that a bartender wouldn't serve me anymore because I wouldn't "ask nicely for drinks".

I am paying for a service. Just b/c I am winning a lot does NOT mean that I have not paid my dues in the past or in the future. Their job is for MY entertainment. When they kick you out for card counting they usually notify other Casinos in the area of your activities and you are watched there as well.

You are there for entertainment, not to get shunned from every Casino b/c god forbid they lose some of the billions of dollars they make every year.

Re:Doesn't matter if they count them or not...

[NoData]

NO. Card counting is legal both in New Jersey and Nevada. See, for example, this article.

However, the Nevada courts have ruled that as private clubs, the casinos can refuse business or openly discriminate (employ counter-measures like bet capping, early re-shuffling, etc.) against any player for any reason. Counting will get you kicked out, good counting can even get you banned, but it won't send you to jail.

In New Jersey, on the other hand, courts have ruled that gambling can only take place on games of PURE CHANCE and not SKILL. If the casinos tried to press the fact that a cheater counted cards to gain an advantage in court, they would be admitting blackjack is a game of skill, which is illegal. Thus, casinos are on a slippier slope if they try to kick someone out for counting, because a gambler could take his "skilled play" claim to the courts. That's part of the reason Atlantic city casinos almost exclusively play giant 6-deck shoes with maybe 2/3 penetration (reducing counting advantage to near NILL) and never the two-deck and even one-deck gems you see in the West.

Re:Doesn't matter if they count them or not...

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

They won't ban you for winning a lot of money.

What they will ban you for is playing $5 per hand until the shoe is >50% empty then suddenly betting $50 per hand (and winning) until the deck is shuffled. Do that often enough and they will notice and take action.

Believe me, the casinos will let you win (temporarily at least) because they have to have some winners or people will eventually wise up and move on.

Last time I went to Vegas (last spring) I won enough to cover the cost of airfare, hotel, meals, rental car and a couple of evenings at the girlie-shows.

Will I win again next time? Probably not.
Will that stop me from going back? Probably not.

Re:Doesn't matter if they count them or not...

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

Dealers are not supposed to shuffle until they reach the break card, a solid colored piece of plastic the same size as a playing card that is randomly inserted into the lower part of the deck after the deck is cut. If they suspect card counting, they are to report it to the floormen and they may then be told to shuffle more often, but dealers are not supposed to take actions against players on their own initiative.

Re:Doesn't matter if they count them or not...

[AntiNorm]

Games of skill for cash are legal everywhere

That doesn't mean that betting on them is legal.

Re:Doesn't matter if they count them or not...

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

Who the heck modded that as a Troll? It's a JOKE people...

If you don't like the joke, then mark it as offtopic or flamebait... but Troll?

Re:Doesn't matter if they count them or not...

[JohnPM]

Yes but dealers can still gain advantage for the house by counting along with the players. They simply re-shuffle the deck whenever the count goes high. Hell, they don't even need to count. If they're dealing to a suspected counter, they can re-shuffle whenever the player raises their bet.

book recommendation

[Anonymous Coward]

"Can you win?" by Mike Orkin (Freeman Press- Scientific American) 'splains the odds of casino and sports betting games. Great writer, it's a book on statistics that is often hilarious.

Teaches you how to have hours of fun on the craps and blackjack tables without losing more the $20.

This issue of Wired, by the way, is just great. Expounds on water politics in western Asia and other stuff not discussed anywhere else. Well worth the yearly subscription of $10 to $12.

Ben Mezrich!!!!

[cioxx]

It's funny how nobody noticed who wrote the story.

Ben Motherfucking Mezrich. One of the best young fiction writers out there. According to the footnote it says he turned to writing non-fiction and his new book on this^ particular subject.

If you're unfamiliar with his works, I encourage anybody to check out Fertile Ground, Treshold and Reaper which rips on Microsoft-like organization and their set-top devices in a really good techno-suspense novel.

Apparently he's back. And it's good news.

Re:Ben Mezrich!!!!

[AdamBa]

Mezrich wrote an article for the Boston Globe called "YOU'RE GOING TO BE HUGE: THE UPS, DOWNS, AND SHEER ABSURDITIES OF THE WRITING LIFE" which may or may not detail why he switched to non-fiction. However I don't know since you have to pay to read it.

- adam

Re:Ben Mezrich!!!!

[DNS-and-BIND]

Good for him. I'd rather read stories about real people doing real things than endure some author's made-up stories in which he gets to exercise his prejudices.

Security Guards...

[Frank of Earth]

"The guard doesn't seem to be bothered by the bulges under my clothes. He waves me through the metal detector, and I stumble toward my gate."

Thank god he didn't try to hide the money in his shoes!

Re:Security Guards...

[drix]

Yeah my jaw about hit the floor when I read that. Wired says the piece is excerpted from the author's forthcoming book, so I assume he must have been working on it and taken this trip well over a year ago. If you'll excuse the pun, no way that sort of thing would fly after 9/11.

Re:Security Guards...

[DNS-and-BIND]

Yeah, that was the scariest part of the article. Everyone knows, of course, that anyone carrying a large amount of cash is a drug dealer. It's absolutely true. If you're carrying cash, and get searched, your cash will be confiscated unless you can positively prove in a court of law that your cash did not come from drug profits. Mind you, during the months while you're hiring a lawyer and preparing to sue, your cash is in the posession of the government.

I can hear you now - the Bill of Rights prevents unlawful search and seizure. Perhaps, but the Supreme Court has ruled that the case is against your money, not you. That's right, it's not the United States vs. John Q. Citizen, it's the United States vs. $200,000. The legal standards favor the government in property proceedings.

Re:Security Guards...

[commodoresloat]

On top of all that, apparently some 90% of American currency tests positive for cocaine. (I've read this in articles about forfeiture; I don't know how accurate it is; anyone know any more about this?) I've read some horror stories of people having large amounts of cash confiscated; in one case a woman's life savings, while she was in the process of moving. More information about forfeiture here.

Carmack

[CaseyB]

Long time readers will remember when John Carmack won $20K at blackjack. Then donated it to the FSF.

"It takes a small amount of skill to know the right plays and count the cards..."

Not TOO hard.

[unicron]

I live in Vegas, and I actually know a guy that can do this, and can really clean up at a Blackjack table. It's not about actually remembering every card's place in the deck and trying to predict when the card will come up, it's about trying to predict when face cards will come up. Their's actually a rhythm/pattern to it while you're watching the cards come out, so a REAL easy way to spot someone doing this is to look for someone that's trying to use a make-shift metrinome, like someone rolling a chip in their hands or tapping the table in a specific, contantly-repeating pattern. Pit Bosses can spot this shit through a hurricane, so unless you can count in your head, you're fucked(it seems simple, but it's hot, noisy, and if you're cheating, you're probably pretty nervous).

It's important to note that it's not like Rainman where you're going to be able to say a 10 of hearts is coming up next, or anything specific like that. You just want to be able to predict with good odds that a face card is going to be up soon. A lot of tables, however, use multiple decks, so it gets pretty hard. Extremely high-roller tables have even been known to use a new deck for every hand. Most tables, though, just have a big plastic holder with 6 shuffled decks inside.

It's really not that hard, and my friend can make about $5,000 a weekend on average, but remember, you may have to sit at a table for 8 hours a day for 2 days to make this kind of money, but hell, that's a work schedule, and a $1,000 a day isn't bad. Just remember, the trick to not getting caught is don't be a stupid fuck. Don't come in a 10am, play the $5 dollar tables, and 2 hours later be raking in at the $1,000 tables, or they'll nail your ass. If they even SUSPECT your cheating, they'll take the money, kick you out, and you can't do shit about it(what are you gonna do, sue them for the money you came there with?). And this is a at nice casino. God help you if you cheat at a shady casino.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[Wolfier]

For what's worth, please reconsider your wording. In no sense is card counting "cheating".

Re:Not TOO hard.

[mrcparker]

Counting cards is not cheating. Casinos have the right (at least in Vegas) to bar who they want from their establishments, and card-counters are bad for business.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[cybermage]

Hmm.. Why would that be stupid? Why would that reveal me as a cheater?

Speaking as another Vegan, and a trained dealer, let me answer that:

Dramatically changing your bet, in any game, is usually considered a sign that you've spotted a way to tilt the odds to your advantage. Usually, this is the result of finding a bad dealer (e.g., tells their hole card in Blackjack)

While card counting is not cheating, a casino can refuse your business for any reason. If they think you're counting, they'll ask you to stop playing. Refuse, and you're trespassing.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[unicron]

Actually, the official casino policy regards card counting as cheating. I actually thought like you did, and argued the hell out of with my friend, using "how is using math to help cheating?" as my logic. So to shut me up the next time we were getting our blackjack on he asked the dealer, who confirmed that it is cheating.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[dboyles]

Yeah, I called up Hillary Rosen to ask her if using my CDs to make a compilation disc for my personal use is stealing. She said it is.

If counting cards was actually cheating, the casinos would have card counters arrested rather than simply ejecting them.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[debrain]

It doesn't sound like cheating, does it? It carries the same stigma as PI=3 ...

Re:Not TOO hard.

[Hard_Code]

"And try to keep to the Hillary Rosen, DMCA references to topic that's actually on that subject"

The point you seemed to miss is that you don't ask the plaintiff whether a certain behavior is a crime, because obviously they believe it is.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[unicron]

Damn, massive brain fart. Guess I need to work on counting numbers before I graduate to cards.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[EvanED]

So let me get this straight... using skill at card counting to win is cheating, but setting up a game so that you're guranteed to win in the long run (w/o counting) isn't? Hmmmm...

Re:Not TOO hard.

[EvanED]

For the same reason that betting $1 when the cards are against you (and losing most of the time) and increasing the bet to $10 when the cards are for you (and winning) looks suspicious.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[unicron]

Well, I've watched him do it on numerous occasions, so it is possible. All he's doing is tipping the odds in his favor, not rigging every hand to get maximum payoff.

As for the issue of them taking the money, they have every right. You're a guest on their property and if they believe you cheated to get the money, then the money isn't yours, and they take it back. I've actually seen them do it to people, and you can't do shit about it. If you do try to push it, I'm pretty sure there resources(money, lawyers, hired thugs) out rank yours, so they'll have no qualms about going toe-to-toe over it. The most they have to give you is the money you came their with, end of story.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[Hrothgar The Great]

I don't know where you've been hanging out, but even the teams in the article didn't have their money confiscated. They were simply kicked out. Every news story I've ever seen on the subject has ended with someone being kicked out (no cash confiscation). It would be illegal for the casino to take back the money - what makes you think that the fact that it's their property gives them the right to simply determine who wins or loses? It doesn't work that way.

They reserve the right to throw you out, but you really can't expect me to believe that they can just nab someone's winnings for counting cards (NOT to be confused with cheating, once again).

Re:Not TOO hard.

[unicron]

Regardless of how you feel, they consider it cheating. My god, it's a damn Vegas Casino. Have you ever even been to Vegas? If you had an ability where if you scratched your ass in a circular pattern the chances for a face card coming up next increased, they would kick you out.

As for them taking the money, it does happen. Maybe not 100% of the time, but it does happen. Until you hit that door, they don't give a shit. All that money in your pockets you just won, it isn't even yours yet. If they feel you cheated, then the next logical progression in that mode of thinking would be "if he cheated to get it, it's not his" and they'll yank that shit right back.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[unicron]

I think the whole cheating/not cheating arguement is getting lame. Put simply: You're doing something in a game of cards that gives you an unfair advantage so that you can win more money. That sounds like the definition of cheating to me, just because you aren't using a mechanical device or magnets or some shit doesn't mean it's not cheating. The "using your brain to win" is not cheating. Your brain didn't physically place the bet, so that logic is flawed. That's like saying "I killed someone with a portable rail gun but it's not murder because I had to really put my mind into making the gun".

Re:Not TOO hard.

[Pfhreakaz0id]

Hmmm, when I played Hearts a while back, had the Queen of spades left in my hand as the only spade and had counted 11 other spades played and hadn't seen the Ace of spades, so I led it and that player was forced to play his Ace and eat the queen, was I cheating?

(P.S. -- is there any other feeling so sweet in cards as doing the above? Maybe winning a big hold 'em tournament, but not much)

Re:Not TOO hard.

[ZxCv]

I live in Vegas, and my dad is an executive at one of the larger casinos here in town. One of his main roles is helping to keep track of high-roller accounts for this casino, so I'm sure he's run into these people before at one time or another. And while I wouldn't call him the ultimate authority, I'll believe him over you when he tells me that the casino cannot take your winnings--they can only blacklist you from the casino.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[cheezedawg]

What? How is it unfair advantage? Is Tiger Woods cheating by developing his skills so he can win more money? Did Michael Jordan have an unfair advantage by using his 36" vertical leap?

Come on- you know that you have been beat when you resort to arguments like "Your brain didn't physically place the bet."

Re:Not TOO hard.

[unicron]

Read the DMCA posts, you'll get a new list. Let me explain it a little better. Doing something illegal in a clever, imaginative, or extremely-intelligent way does not excuse you of the crime.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[karmawarrior]

You're doing something in a game of cards that gives you an unfair advantage so that you can win more money.

Which means the casinos are cheating doesn't it?

I mean, you are aware that they've rigged the games so that the odds are such that in the casino will win most of the time?

And presumably, given the technique you're condemning is using your brain - not looking over the dealer's shoulder, or slipping the dealer a bribe - but merely using knowledge and odds to make intelligent decisions about how much to bet and how far to go - all 21 players who do not blindly just ask for more cards and make the decision at random when to stop are "cheating"?

That's like saying "I killed someone with a portable rail gun but it's not murder because I had to really put my mind into making the gun".

No, it isn't. Murdering someone isn't a game, and someone who's the victim of a murder is unlikely to have encouraged you to believe that it is.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[unicron]

How is it against the law? You stole from them! You didn't earn that money, and no matter how clever you were in screwing the system, cheating is cheating. Doing it in a slick, uber-cool way doens't make that any less true. In their eyes, what you did is more or less the same thing as a thief breaking into a safe.

Let me just get one thing straight. I never said they were going to arrest you, I just said they were going to take their money back. You're on private property breaking a rule(law) of the establishment you're in, subject to their rules and punishments. Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. I don't know about other states, but in Nevada their are laws that allow employees of any business to physically detain suspected thieves for the purpose of getting the stolen property back and or detaining them until the police arrive.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[Hrothgar The Great]

Uh, unicron, you were doing ok for a while, but you're just being intentionally stupid now. A guy even responded to you with evidence; his father worked for a casino - I note that you could not be bothered to respond to him.

You do not get to violate people's rights just because it is your property. Unfortunately for the casino owners, you also can not decide that counting cards == cheating and act based on that. If someone is cheating, for real, you can have them arrested and then, yes, take your money back. But, in the twisted fantasy world in which you live, if I owned a casino, I could make up any arbitrary rule I wanted for removing people's winnings, such as - it is illegal to win money in my casino. I will throw out and confiscate the money of any known winner. How would that be, tough guy?

Why don't you actually do some reading and/or research. Casinos CAN NOT LEGALLY arbitrarily remove people's winnings. If something is against the law, it is against the law even if you do it to someone on your own property.

Also, incidentally, no, you are not subject to "punishments" of a private establishment if you violate their rules. They can throw you out, or if you've violated AN ACTUAL LAW, they can arrest you. No private citizen can punish another private citizen against his will legally. You complete idiot.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[Omnifarious]

How is it against the law? You stole from them! You didn't earn that money, and no matter how clever you were in screwing the system, cheating is cheating. Doing it in a slick, uber-cool way doens't make that any less true. In their eyes, what you did is more or less the same thing as a thief breaking into a safe.

Because, the law is what's agreed on by legislatures, not what the casino owner decides it is. If it were the latter, they'd just take the money from anybody who left with more money than they came with.

It's a game. You know how to play the game really, really well. Better than anybody else. Your knowledge and skill give you an advantage over all the other players, including the house. There is no game in existence where that is considered cheating. In fact, in every game I know of, there are groups of players who will endlessly practice in order to get to that state, and those players are widely celebrated and even looked up to.

Just because there's money involved doesn't make it any less of a game. Just because the rules of the casino say that you can only play if you're bad at their game doesn't mean you've broken any law passed by a state legislature.

OTOH, taking your money definitely IS breaking a law. They couldn't do that even if you broke a real law. There is this little thing called 'due process'. They can only get the government to take your money and give it to them after hauling you into court and giving you a trial. That's how it works. The casinos are no more allowed to be vigilantes than you or I.

If being good at their games WERE against the law, you can be sure that casinos would haul those people in and get them jailed, and get their money back. But, contrary to your ardent belief, it isn't, so they can't.

If you want to call being good at a game cheating, be my guest. I don't think you'll find many who agree with you though.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[geekoid]

you watch too many movies.
If they think you are cheating, they'll have you arrested, then show you how they know your cheating, then take your money.
if you card counting(NOT a crime) they will ask you to leave, but you get to take your money with you. If they take your money away, and there is no legal cause, they can be fined a lot of money and shut down. The risk is to high for them to worry about your puttly 5Gs. They spend more then that on free alcoholic drinks, which are illegal to give out, so casinos pay a fine at the end of every year based on how many free drinks they give out. thats why they keep track.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[p3d0]

Put simply: You're doing something in a game of cards that gives you an unfair advantage so that you can win more money. That sounds like the definition of cheating to me...

You used the word "unfair" in there, with no justification, and the rest of your argument depends on it. How is counting cards unfair?

Re:Not TOO hard.

[Matthaeus]

Put simply: You're doing something in a game of cards that gives you an unfair advantage so that you can win more money.

What's "fair?" Obviously, in your mind, "fair" is acting like a sheep and refusing to exercise any free will. The rules of blackjack say absolutely nothing about keeping track of the cards. If they really wanted to avoid this, they'd just shuffle after every hand.

The "using your brain to win" is not cheating. Your brain didn't physically place the bet, so that logic is flawed.

So anything your brain comes up with but can't implement without the help of your body is something you shouldn't take advantage of? The computer you're reading this on wasn't invented by accident, buddy, and it was brought to the market in order to enrich the inventors. By your logic, you shouldn't be using it because it gives an "unfair" advantage to the persons whose mental acuity made it possible.

You're making the argument that if one person is able to outwit another person, it's not fair. Perhaps we should all lower ourselves to the level of the most disadvantaged person on Earth so that he won't be at a disadvantage anymore.

Your argument is the argument of a person who can't compete effectively, and so seeks to eliminate the competition by legislature or other, non-rational, means. Quit your whining and get on with your life.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[unicron]

Nice defense for your side of the position. And for my final words on this subject, to avoid feeling stupid, I managed to get a hold of a friend of mine's father, a blackjack dealer here in Vegas. His response?(you can choose to believe this or not, but since 95% of you getting so heated over this debate don't even live in Vegas and yet still attempt to speak from a position of knowledge and experience, I'm sure truth and credability isn't a primary concern in your conversation)

"Yes, it is cheating. Essentially, anything that gives you an unfair advantage over the other players or dealer is considered cheating. As for the casino confiscating money from suspected card counters, it does happen, but not often. It's mainly used as a more or less "bonus punishment" on unruly gamblers suspected of card counting. Most people would rather give it back than see how far the casino is willing to push the issue, so if the casino asks, they usually get it. The police really have no say in the matter, either. The casino can simply say "We know he's cheating. He's stealing our money by doing so."

Re:Not TOO hard.

[cheezedawg]

Ok- here is an explaination of how it is not cheating (according to the 1992 Casino Control Act in Nevada):

http://www.online-blackjack-authority.com/blackjac k-basics-casino-rules.html

Look at rule 15.1- as long as you are not using an external device (like a calculator or even an abacus), it is not cheating. Now if you try to argue that your brain is an electrical device there is no hope left for you.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[unicron]

Actually, you were the first person to prove me wrong with actual facts. I was told one thing from someone I trust, repeated it here, defended it, and you showed me I was told incorrectly the first time. You even backed it up with facts. And your post didn't contain the words "newb" "llama" or "stupid fucker".

Bravo, I stand corrected.

Re:Not TOO hard.

[karlm]

This is not unfair at all. The information the card counter uses is availableto the house and to all of the other players. If they were marking the cards or had cards up thier sleeves, it would be unfair. This is why card counting isn't illegal. It's infomation that the house is giving away and expecting you not to remember. It's rather silly to expect you not to use the information in your betting. The casinos could stop card coutning all together by using better shuffling machines and shuffling after every hand. They don't 'cause their proffits are maximized by shuffling less.

Not so strange..

[unorthod0x]

I've met several people who have a very strong technology background and are card counters too (one of them happened to hail from MIT) - this was a few years ago, and some of them went on to create their own .com's, which ended up booming, then folding but ultimately paying out a princely sum to these individuals.

What are they doing now? Hopping around the continent to the few casinos that haven't banned them yet and making the big bucks, though as they tell me the pickings are getting slimmer as it's just a matter of time until they get the boot and they're running out of casinos to pillage. Either way, they've got plenty of money, so it's not a major concern, but it seems as if the appeal of a casino-hopping lifestyle ended up catering to their likes more than technology. Sure, they have all the latest do-dads and high tech gadgets to play with as a result of their financial adventures, but their pursuit of technology seemed to ultimately take a back seat to lounge singers and blinking lights :)

At least in my experience none of these people made a direct correlation between their technology and card counting pursuits. Most were interested in card counting before ever hitting an "enter" key, but they are brilliant coders nonetheless.. Perhaps card counting begets good programmers, not the other way around?

Re:Not so strange..

[iabervon]

It makes me wonder why they don't make a habit of winning a bunch of money at blackjack, and then immediately losing it again. Hang out in the casino playing a lot, encouraging the other players by winning, and then leaving with just the money they arrived with. Casinos aren't hurting so much for space in the pit or care too much about the perks they give to the player that they'd kick you out if you're not taking money away from them.

Since the fun is in controlling the game by skill and smarts, there's not really any reason to get yourself kicked out for winning too much.

Re:Card counting is fair

[msheppard]

The house does NOT have a 90% advantage. If they did, no one would play. The house has a very small advantage, but it's more than enough. A 1% advantage at a table where a million dollars moves through the betting circles is a $10k profit, every night! And this small percentage is the STATISTICAL advantage the house has if the players all play perfectly, and they DON'T, they take chances, especially when they are loosing, so it definatly adds up to a big profit for the casino.

Smart people should realize this and will understand that gambling against a casino is a form of entertainment, not something you should ever expect to profit at.

Now, playing cards with your buddies, then your putting your wits up against someone you know... that's REAL entertainment!

M@

too greedy?

[Alien54]

Anyone else know of any get rich quick schemes that work? ;)

You could probably do this, but of course, the trick to get rich quick schemes is to not get too greedy.

you could either get banned really quickly, get some seed money for what ever project, or cycle your 'leet card skilz so that you only skim your profits every once in a while. so that you come in under the radar.

Re:Old News

[AssFace]

actually no - it didn't.

Beat the Dealer was written and that was all single deck - but the Wired Article is discussing the early to mid 90's with the MIT kids and they developed a system that would work on the 6 decks (involving several players that were to not look like they were in with each other).

Casinos will always catch on and prevent anything that is winning in their casino. They now have a few companies that have a database of people that they don't want in their casino, and then they can cross reference it with who these people checked in with, eat with, are seen with, etc.
This way they can see if people are in groups or not, instead of just random players together.

The mob loves it when you cheat em....

[jsimon12]

Haven't these geeks seen Casino? Personally I would prefer to have my limbs intact. As for this article, all it will do is get people who have know idea what they are doing into counting cards, they will lose money etc etc etc. Gambling is fun, Vegas is fun, but you aren't going to make money off it, no matter how many cards you count, and if for whatever reason you make a lot of money, the casino or whatever power that rules will make sure you don't keep it long.

Kuro5hin?

[legLess]

This reminds me of a series of K5 articles a while back: "A Casino Odyssey." The articles are longer than the Wired story, and told from a first-person perspective. Fascinating stuff:

• A Casino Odyssey, part 1
• A Casino Odyssey, part 2
• A Casino Odyssey, part 3
• A Casino Odyssey, part 4

Re:Kuro5hin?

[maroberts]

The localroger casino stories [links in parent] are some of the most entertaining online articles I've ever read. If you haven't read them, do so now.

My grand-pappy

[littlerubberfeet]

my grandfather, a well-known math textbook author counted cards. He tried it quite a bit as an experiment, and used some stuff in his books. Shame he never told me wether he won anything

Gambling against casinos

[msheppard]

I think it's a fun game, playing these kinda tricks against casinos, actually out-smarting them. That it's totally legal is even better. That the casinos don't like it is another bonus.

Reminds me of hearing people talk about slot machines, and how they see people watching them to see which ones are paying off, and all the LOL's (little old ladies) sitting in front of them pumping their social security in. The thought that one machine would start "paying off," is kinda funny. Do you think the casinos don't know about this? They WANT you to think you are seeing a pattern and they WANT you to try to use it, becuase in the end you are going to loose some money, and they will get it. The slot machines are all computer controlled, and it's not just "pay out %99 of what you get in," it's probably programmed to appear to have a pattern, anything to get you to keep playing.

Gambling against casinos is entertainment, possible some exersize for the LOL's as well, but in the end money moves from the customer to the casino. If you're having fun in the process than it's worth it. Realize that when you walk in... don't become a Marge Simpson.

M@

Re:Gambling against casinos

[admiralh]

There was a report a few years ago on 60 Minutes (or some such show) about the "near misses" that slot machine computers were programmed to give. Seems that the machines were much more likely to produce a "near miss" (one reel one position away from a big win) than random chance. This in turn produced a psychological effect among players, enticing them to play longer, since they "just missed" the big win.

Re:Gambling against casinos

[msheppard]

"The Trick" is to not gamble.

The easiest way to make a small fortune in Las Vegas is to start with a large fortune.

M@

Re:Gambling against casinos

[kubrick]

I've played around with an old mechanical one-armed bandit (with an open cashbox, so you could just feed the money straight through again)... and it seems to me that, assuming that the distribution was random and roughly even, seeing a 'near miss' would make me think that I was unlikely to get anywhere near a big win for a while. Of course, I've never been in that 'gambling haze' that those people seem to get into...

BS Alert!

[Joseph Vigneau]

Fifty thousand dollars strapped to each thigh. A hundred thousand dollars, in 10 bricks of hundreds, taped across my upper back. Fifty thousand more Velcroed to my chest.

...I stroll through Logan International Airport....There's enough money hidden under my clothes to buy a two-bedroom condo.

Uh, not in Boston. You'll be lucky to get a converted basement in Roxbury with only 200 grand.

And I really doubt if you can get all of that through airport security; they've tightened up quite a bit at Logan... Then again, the article doesn't mention the risk of being "randomly" picked at the gate, either.. But then again, this story seems to have happened more than a year ago...

Re:BS Alert!

[Fat Casper]

And I really doubt if you can get all of that through airport security; they've tightened up quite a bit at Logan...

And tightening security at Logan implies what?

Re:BS Alert!

[ckd]

I stroll through Logan International Airport

I just wonder what he was doing in Terminal C if he was flying on America West! They use Terminal B.

Re:BS Alert!

[geekoid]

not too mention its a pretty damn stupid way to move money.
Some one should tell these genesius about banks, or cahiers checks, etc...
oh at thats 250,000 he's carring.

Re:Card counting is fair

[Lord_Slepnir]

Sorry, I couldn't let this go

Greedy fucks at Casino's. They rig the game against you so that you basically can't win (i.e., house has 90% advantage).

If you were to go to The Wizard of Odds You'll notice that the house edge in most games is not 90%. It's more like 2-3%. They know that people are not stupid, and while some games are horribly rigged (Slot machines for example) most of them will give out 97% of what they take in...that 3% they keep is what lets you get a luxury room for $20 / night.

Then, when a few smart people (maybe one out of 1000) come along who can count cards and actually break even or better, they bitch and whine.

Execpt that one person can literally bring down the whole casino if they have an edge. Pretend that you can win 52% of the time. It takes one minute to play one round of blackjack. If you're making $100 dollar bets, you'd be making $240 / hour off of the casino. And to think that they don't let you get away with it.

Its just a technique -- a legal one, as opposed to casino's illegal techniques of winning. Look in Hoyle's rule-books on cards. They won't mention anything about it being illegal to count cards. However, their rules for blackjack don't set it up so that the dealer has a 90% advantage.

I won't debate that card counting is legal, as long as you don't use a computer or calculator. And you're right, they don't set it up so that the dealer has a 90% advantage. The advantage is that the dealer wins should both the dealer and the player bust. There are other little differences as well, but it's not overwhelming.

By the way, does anyone here really think that the dealers don't count the cards? Bullshit. You know damn well they do.

Dealers play by a set of rules. Hit on 16 or lower. Stand on 17 or higher. That's it. Not much card counting.

Furthermore, casinos have a number of tactics to foil card-counting, such as cutting the deck, starting a new deck, or mixing in several decks.

You mean they try to randomize a game of chance? They MUST be cheating

Everyone knows there is a house advantage in the casinos. When you enter a casino, you're on private property, and thus have to play by their rules. If you don't like those rules, you can go to another casino whose rules you like. But good luck finding a casino that will let you cheat.

banned in Atlantic City

[jpostel]

One of the guys I used to work for was a statistics professor at Farleigh Dickenson University a while back. He has been banned from most (if not all) the casinos in Atlantic City. He goes out to Reno and Las Vegas every once in a while for a business trip and plays. When I told him where I was going for my honeymoon (St. Lucia), he asked me to find out if they had casinos.

The trick with most predictive statistics based winning is that there is also significant losing involved. He told me not to bother unless I have several thousand dollars to lose.

My experience in London...

[slykens]

Like most Americans the idea of a "members only" casino is quite foreign, but the casinos in London require you to "join". You can't go for the first 24 hours after you join but the minute past you're more than welcome.

During my last trip to London one of the gentlemen I was there with had arrived a few days earlier and joined a casino. One evening we decided to go play. In about four hours of basic strategy play I was up nearly £300 on £10 and £15 bets. My buddy who wasn't playing any strategy was up £600 at one point but lost it all playing £100 bets. I left with my profits but when we returned the next night we were told we were no longer welcome there.

Now I wasn't card counting, I don't know if I was doing something that looked like I was, but I am sure they didn't like me taking £300 from them then wanting to come back for more.

Re:My experience in London...

[stevey]

but the casinos in London require you to "join". You can't go for the first 24 hours after you join

That's not specific to London it's Law for the whole of the UK. A lot of the big casinos are pushing for it to be scrapped so that they can compete fairly with online casino's.

Re:My experience in London...

[geekoid]

over 300 hundred loosy pounds?
please, you can't even consider opening a casino if 300 pounds is going to upset you. You where more likely to loose it the next time anyway. plus your friend lost.

Re:Them MIT kids are SWUFT!

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

not a game of chance a.k.a. gambling (which is illegal)

Have you ever even been to Vegas? Gambling IS legal there...

Can you imagine a casino setting up a game of skill, i.e., the swing the sledge-hammer and ring the bell? Every strong guy in the world could walk in and win money, and that's not good for business. There has to be a chance for the casino to win, or there's no point in them offering it.

Re:Card counting is fair

[NoData]

Dealers are trained to count cards so they can monitor if players are counting cards. When the count is favorable, they can spot opportunistic bettors, and employ counter-measures if need be.

Eudaemonic Pie taught me how to make rice

[serutan]

As fascinating as the saga of beating the roulette wheels was, the factoid I got from that book that has stayed with me to this day was how to cook rice without measuring. No matter how much rice you are making or what size pot you are cooking it in, add enough water to reach the first knuckle on your finger when your fingertip is touching the top of the rice. NEVER FAILS.

MIT students are certainly not the first to take a scientific approach to card counting. Back around 1979 I read a mathematics book in the engineering library at Tektronix that explained card counting in great detail. It also predicted fractals would be a big thing.

Re:Odds

[bje2]

baccarat does not have 50/50 odds...in fact the oddss in baccarat are still slightly against you...but the house edge is smaller when you bet on the bank actually...a lot of people don't like that, cause you're betting against the player...but it's the way to go in terms of edge...

see here.... http://fastodds.com/gameodds/baccarat.htm

The sad things is...

[MarvinMouse]

that card-counting isn't cheating. But rather, a legitimate strategy to a probabilistic game.

Unfortunately, casinos don't like losing money. Their sole business is the fact that people come in and give them money for no real reason whatsoever. As soon as someone comes in and discovers that by following their rules they can win that money back, then they are removed from the premises.

It really does not matter if you are winning at one table or another. If they begin to think that you will take their money instead of give it to them, you will be removed. Simple as that. Card Counting is not cheating, just as keeping a poker face during a poker game bluff is not cheating. It's just good strategy.

Re:The sad things is...

[swordgeek]

Card counting is not cheating? That's a really tough statement to defend or attack.

The casinos have rules that prohibit card counting. Counting cards is against the casino rules, but not necessarily against the rules of Blackjack.

Cheating? Hard to say. Grounds for getting you kicked out? Definitely, because they make the rules that say so.

Re:The sad things is...

[rhaig]

How about "Card counting is not illegal, unless an external assistance device is used in the counting proecess".

Now, is it cheating? Merriam-Webster defines cheat as "to violate rules dishonestly". Are the rules of blackjack being violated? No. Are the casino rules being violated? Yes. So what are they cheating at if they are cheating? They're not cheating at blackjack, the rules of the game don't cover counting. Are they cheating the house? Maybe. Depends on how you look at it.

But it certainly isn't illegal. Nor would I consider it "wrong". Knowing more about how a game works and using that knowledge to your advantage isn't wrong. It may change the odds of the game, and it's outcome, but playing a game without knowing how it works would be considered foolish by many.

Re:The sad things is...

[interstellar_donkey]

It's actually a very easy statement to defend.

The rules of blackjack are designed as such that you make a decision as to how much money you want to bet. You receive your cards, and make a decision as to what will be done.

All of these decisions are based on what information you have. There is a basic logic in blackjack that says if you have a 20, and the dealer has a 6 showing up, your best bet would stand. It's simply making the right decision based on the information you have.

Card counting just extends this decision making process. You are able to track more information and make better informed decsisions. All this does is give you a edge over the house in the long run. How is that any different then standing on a 20, which will give you better odds over the dealer in the short run?

Re:The sad things is...

[swordgeek]

"The rules of blackjack are designed as such that you make a decision as to how much money you want to bet. You receive your cards, and make a decision as to what will be done."

Ah, see there's the thing. There is no one single set of blackjack rules. In fact one could get into a philosophical discussion about the Platonic Ideal of blackjack, vs. what really is done.

Here's the thing. If you nicely asked at a casino, I would imagine they'd give you a written copy of their house rules and their game rules. If they write into the blackjack rules that card counting isn't allowed, then within the confines of their casino, that makes it so for the game.

Re:The sad things is...

[interstellar_donkey]

If they write into the blackjack rules that card counting isn't allowed, then within the confines of their casino, that makes it so for the game.

True, but that would be very difficult to impliment as a rule. 'The player is not allowed to make decisions based on a long term stragity that could help him win?' 'The player may not increase their bet when there are more face cards in the deck?'

It's nearly impossible to 'proove' somebody is card counting, as it's hard to distinguish from any other non-winning 'systems' people use.

I doubt any such rule is officially written down. As has been said before, for the most part casinos welcome card counters, because the majority of them do not have the ability to do it properly and gain an advantage over the house.

But they aren't the facts...

[Howzer]

The facts are that even an 8-deck, machine shuffled, heavily cut monster will, just by pure random chance, about half the time be weighted to the player.

The problem then becomes picking that time. Back-counting is part of the solution. So too is the fact that machine shuffling just isn't very good for the casinos, except in terms of hands/hour, which whilst it mostly favours the house, also favours the player under certain conditions.

Two more things.

1. The maths on all this is not trivial and most people think about the problem incorrectly (ie. there is no "random" in a finite set which has had discrete operations performed on it) and it effects their maths when they do try and tackle it this way.

2. I agree with you 100% about the distractions. The kind of brain which can hold a count, up to seven side counts, track shuffles through a machine on an 8-deck shoe, remember to effectively mask play, keep an active backcount going on surrounding tables, and still smile at the dealer and appear a lucky fool, act like a chronic smoker or toilet-goer to Wong in and out effectively, etc etc is extremely rare.

Also remember that most people who say they win at cards are LYING. I do not even play Blackjack, I can't do the above with my brain. I know hundreds of _gamblers_ some of whom lie about winning at cards. I only know one person who does, actually, win at cards.

Re:But they aren't the facts...

[DNS-and-BIND]

No kidding...if these MIT people were such geniuses as they say they were, they'd be playing poker or pan instead of trying to beat silly blackjack 20 years after the heat came down on card counters. You can't be barred for being a winning poker player, since you're not beating the house.

Re:But they aren't the facts...

[Howzer]

Sorry, limekiller, I've appreciated your comments before on other issues, but in this case you're dead wrong.

Here are the numbers. The casino edge for the exact setup that I wrote about is less than one half of one percent. So, half the time (actually 49.5% of the time), you win. Slightly more often, you lose.

The link has an excellent discussion of the other figures surrounding this, like risk and deviation. Please note that perfect play is assumed, etc. This was the point of the other 80% of my orinal post.

Neither is that basement room...

[dmorin]

True, card counting is not illegal. But did you notice that every time he was caught, the guy *ran* out of there, rather than go into the basement to have a "talk" with the bouncers?

Casino's are the one's who are organized crooks

[dh003i]

The Casino's are the entities that are involved with and/or organized crime, not card-counting groups.

Breaking into people's appartments, stealing their money, harassing them, killing people -- this is stuff that Casino's do, not card-counters. They are the one's involved with organized crime.

The rulings by courts that Casino's can exclude individuals for any reason are unconstitutional. McDonald's can't ban anyone from coming in there; restaurants can't ban people from coming there who come there and order cheap meals along with water to save money. In other words, they can't ban the people who aren't as profitable to them. So why should Casino's be able to?

Stories like this illustrate why gambling is illegal in most states. Casinos are run by crooks and mobsters, who will use illegal tactics to maintain their profitability (i.e., breaking/entering, harassment, murder, blackmail, etc).

I agree that gambling should be legal; however, it should be tightly regulated and controlled.

Casino's don't like card counters. Tough. That's not a good enough reason to ban them from your resort. Fast food places can't ban people for any reason, why should Casino's be able to?

If Casino's have a problem with card-counting, its up to them to come up with legitimate tactics to deal with it: cutting the deck, switching dealers, using large decks, mixing more thoroughly, etc. Plenty of tactics they can use which aren't illegal.

But quite frankly, I don't care if this ruins their business. They have billions of dollars to spend. If they aren't smart enough to catch on to card-counting schemes and develop counter-measures, they deserve to go out of business.

Bunch of big whiners. Waaah! Waaah! Keep on crying because your too fucking dumb.

Re:Casino's are the one's who are organized crooks

[Anonymous Coward]

a) You have no idea what the Constitution says.
b) Your understanding of casinos came from B movies
c) You're a stupid fuck.

Re:Casino's are the one's who are organized crooks

[hawk]

>The Casino's are the entities that are involved
>with and/or organized crime, not card-counting
>groups.

oh, sure. And there is a platform 9-3/4 with the train to Hogwarts, and Denver was wiped out in a nuclear blast, and . . .

Outside of movies, the mob has been gone since some time in the '80s. It was alive and well in 1980, and gone by 1990.

Plain and simply, the mob couldn't handle the publicly traded corporation, which had no kneecaps to break or daughters to kidnap. This weakened the mob enough that gaming control was able to finish it off. All that's left after Stupak lost vegas world (and he was never actually mob; just a wanna be) is 75 year old men who show up leaning on a crutch to shood another 75 year old in his driveway--nothing but comic relief.

Also, unless it's about race, religion, or national origin, there's nothing unconstitutional about a private entity choosing whith whom it will associate.

hawk

Re:Casino's are the one's who are organized crooks

[geekoid]

fast food resturants CAN refuse service to anyone they wish, and ask them to leave. If they don't, they can be arrested for trespass.

It is immensly un profitable for a casino to behave in the manner you suggest. They will be shut down in a heart beat. there is too much money to be made from being legit, and too much money to loose if they get caught.

Most casinos in nevada pay all there bills with .25cent and under slots. when you start to relize that, it become strikingly obvious that the extrat 1/2 percent a casino would make be rbbing people just isn't worth it.

25 years ago, now that is a different story.

Re:Card counting is fair

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

Actually, I think you'll find that in most casinos dealers do not count cards and they do not double deal... why? Oh, a funny little think I like to call The Law.

Most dealers are barely making enough money to stay alive, and if they are caught doing either of these things they will be fired and will most likely end up hungry and homeless.

The Nevada Gaming Commission has very strict rules on what kind of behaviour is allowable by casinos, and cheating is not allowed. If a dealer is caught cheating (and remember those cameras watch both players and dealers) they lose their dealing priveleges and have to find a new job.

Many casinos hire professional card manipulators, but not to deal, they use them to watch dealers and look for double-deals or anything else that is illegal.

Re:After actually READING the article...

[Bozar]

"So 25-125 million dollars payoff for the team.

I wouldn't mind that in my pocket"

neither would i ;-)

but if you're going to be making money honestly (which they are) then there are cases where people have made much more (some college dropouts, for example)

This article reminds me of the stupid stories about how some high school or college student made millions during the dot-com era. I regard these as a symptom of a problem, not as a role model to follow. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, and when someone seems to be getting one, something is broken and sooner or later it's gunna get fixed :-D. You see this again and again - from dot com to gambling, and in particular Long Term Capital Management. If you ever have some time to read a fantastic book about something... oddly similar to the wired article, check out _When_Genius_Failed_

Replace MIT students with Nobel prize winners, replace millions with billions, and throw in a potential collapse of the western financial system... it is well worth reading.

It's a sad life

[L. VeGas]

I first started counting in high school. I had a chemistry professor that turned me on to Beat the Dealer. Every weekend, I put on a fake mustache and hit the casinos. Back in 1980, the casinos really didn't care that much about who was playing, and I was only ever asked for an ID once. Since that time, I've counted off and on and have made, oh, about $75,000 over the years. Luckily I realized fairly early that the life of a gambler is, frankly, a crappy one.

I've met several pros over the years, and, without exception, their lives suck. Divorces, endless travel, few friends, tobacco fiends. Most that have been into the game for more that ten years or so wish they had pursued a more legit career.

As the article states, to make any real money, you have to play in teams. The lone counter can make a living, but not a great one. There is a high to playing and winning, particularly when you're young and you have more cash in your pocket than any of your friends.

Long term though, follow the advice of your elders. Get an education. Get a good job. Invest wisely. Take care of your family. That's a much better recipe for happiness. I know.

Re:Odds

[bje2]

again no...that's not true...the way to look at it is house edge...if the edge is 0%, then the odds of you winning are truly 50/50...in any case, craps and blackjack have the best edge...

Craps (double odds) 0.60%
Blackjack 0.80%
Baccarat (banker) 1.17%
Baccarat (player) 1.63%
Pai Gow Poker 2.5%
Roulette (single zero) 2.7%
Three-Card Poker 3.4%
Let It Ride 3.5%
Sportsbook Betting 4.5%
Caribbean Stud Poker 5.26%
Roulette (double zero) 5.6%
Big 6 Wheel 11.1% to 24%
Keno 25%

actually, the blackjack edge can vary greatly depending on what the rules are in the casino...

(i pulled those stats off a web page..not exactly sure how accurate...but it reflects the order i'm used to seeing)

Re:After actually READING the article...

[Fat Casper]

The main subject of the article only had 1 to 5 million bucks...

He started out with investors, who got a lot of money. The money that went to the team got split between the whole team. He didn't do it all the time, having to be subtle. They were just doing it in college- how many actually dropped out or made it a career? I have to stand by the idea that while the money was awesome, it wasn't about the money. Once you have a few million, a shitty little savings account can pay quite nicely. There's greedy and then there's greedy. I wouldn't want to "work" in a casino if I didn't have to, either.

Caltech v.s. Las Vegas

[tbmaddux]

As an alumnus of Caltech I feel compelled to respond. IIRC there are old descriptions of statistical analysis attacks performed by Caltech students on Las Vegas roulette wheels in the books "Legends of Caltech" and "More Legends of Caltech."

Caltech students were also responsible for the famous box-stuffing (spamming, really) of a nationwide fast food chain (McDonalds, but I can't be certain) contest in which they took home a vast majority of the winnings by computer-printing their entries.

In addition, there's a very good review of successful and legal professional gambling by the technically savvy by another Caltech alumnus that was published in "Engineering and Science," a Caltech alumni publication. Get the PDF here or here.

does this work on electronic blackjack?

[JeanBaptiste]

I know that virtual card machines have to maintain virtual decks, but would these card counting schemes apply to them as well? And how might that affect detection of your methods by the casino?

Re:does this work on electronic blackjack?

[Sloppy]

I would think that with an electronic game, there would be no time cost for reshuffling after every hand.

Easier way to carry your stake...

[fishbowl]

These guys never heard of a cashiers' check?

They act as if taking money from Mass to Nevada
is a crime or something. I think it's just journalistic sugar, though, as it sounds just
like a quote from Midnight Express.

If you win large amounts at a casino, they matter-of-factly do the tax reporting "for you", and unless the stakes they were using were ill-gotten, there was no reason for "smuggling" it.

Leaving the country with large amounts of cash is another matter.

Re:Easier way to carry your stake...

[mlas]

When you win large amounts at a casino, you get chips at a table, which are then cashed in at a cashier's window. They make you fill out tax forms if you cash out more than $10,000, but less than that is up to you to report (or, ahem, not). If you however cash out several times for $9,000, there is no automatic tax reporting... and you needn't show any ID at all.

So, you're holding a wad of cash untraceable to you and you're going to voluntarily report it to the IRS so's they can take ~40% of it? And you're a card counter? Riiiiight.

Turning $200,000 into a cashier's check requires running that money through a bank and raises a big red flag to the IRS. Carrying big wads of cash == ~40% increase in profits.

Not that I've ever won anywhere near enough for this to be an issue ;) but I've seen it happen.

JPL branch

[IvyMike]

A guy at my work used to work at the JPL branch of the team, and has some pretty interesting stories. (JPL in Pasedena has a bunch of MIT grads and other assorted geniuses, and is a lot closer to Vegas than Boston is, so it's a natural fit for the club.) He was never one of the really big high-rollers, but did manage to get to go to Vegas with 25K or 50K several times.

On interesting thing he mentioned is that the club really started to fall apart when the group's average winnings began to fall far below what theory predicted. There were two possible explanations: Vegas had changed something to make the game more in their favor (but I guess nobody ever figured out what they changed) or the members were getting greedy and underreporting winnings back to the group.

And then there was the after-prom party casino

[taliver]

One of those stupid little monopoly-money type casinos where the cash could be used to bid at an auction at the end--things like hammocks, phones, etc.

Anyway, I was wandering around the tables while my date was off dancing with her boyfriend (hey, I am posting on /. after all), and I happened to notice the roulette wheel. They had the odds posted beside it.

50-1 payoff on guessing the right number.

There are only 38 slots to pick from.

Well, my first attempt at putting a chip on every spot got me throttled by a football player who said I was messing up the board. My later attempt of just telling the guy working it what my bet was just had him handing me 12 chips on every spin.

Very entertaining, humorous, and extremely sad that no one else in the junior or senior class happened to notice this.

Staying under the radar

[dmorin]

It seems like the way to get caught is to win or bet "big". So in theory, it seems like if you were content to say under threshold X, the casinos probably would never notice you. After all, if I think I can count cards but I never leave the $5 table, they don't really care about me, right?

So a magic question, then, is what's X? Can you win $5000 a week at one casino and not be noticed? $10k?

The problem with that system is that anybody who is that good of a gambler will, of course, get greedy, and eventually get caught.

Re:Staying under the radar

[rhaig]

anyone who wins consistantly will be noticed. if you only win a few thousand a week, they may not notice you as quickly, but the pit bosses at the $5 tables are going to notice. And when they notice, you'll either be asked to leave, or told to leave.

Or, they'll keep you around and see that you play more action. Once it all goes to your head, you screw up a couple of times, then you lose it all back.

I was playing at the gold nugget in Vegas, and though they didn't tell me, I'm pretty sure I was ID'd as a counter. I had a weak dealer that was slow and easy to count with. In about 10 minutes, I made about $300 on him (at the $5 table) while betting $5-25/hand. The dealer got changed out to one who was much faster and hard to count. I quickly lost the count, and about $100 of my winnings. I turned into what the article referred to as a "bad counter". My mistakes turned my strategy against me. I say I was ID'd because the dealers usually change after 20 minutes, and this one only took about 10 minutes. Overall gambling-wise, I finished that 3 day trip up about $300, but had spent that much on other things while there. So it was a wash for me, and them. And I'll be back, they know it.

professionals allowin at S. CA card shops

[peter303]

I tried to google the reference, but about a year ago the NY Time Sunday Magazine or Wired had a story about professional card counters in Southern California card shops. It sounded like a pretty grueling job. These syndicates hired young men to gamble around the clock under avery strick set of playing rules. The odds were slightly in the players favor under these rules, but you needed to turn over hundreds of thousands of dollars a week to realize these odds. The card shops know who these syndicates are and who the players are and dont discourage them. The professionals seem to attracts lots of amateurs to the tables who then lose in favor of the house. The job gets tired quickly for the young men who play.

Re:professionals allowin at S. CA card shops

[Jeremy Erwin]

Gambler's Inc. In California, gamblers bet against each other, not the house. The casino makes its money by charging a betting fee of 1%. Because the professional gamblers place many bets and attract other players, they are welcomed by the (California) casinos.

Re:Card counting is fair

[Nogami_Saeko]

Sorry,

If they don't like card counters in the game, they should drop the game from their floor, or modify the game's rules so they can maintain their advantage without kicking people out.

The whole idea of being able to kick out people who have a perceived advantage rubs me the wrong way... If they're cheating, arrest them - otherwise the game is there to play, so play it.

Infact, the first thought I had was a Invader Zim flashback to Megadoomer - two kids playing and when one has a perceived advantage, the other yells "I'm not gonna play with you any more!"

Claude Shannon hacking Las Vegas in the 60s.

[XNormal]

Check out this amazing article about the first wearable computer built by Claude Shannon and Edward Thorp to predict roulette results.

A few points on card counting

[foxtrot]

1) Dealers generally don't know if you're counting cards. The guy on the other end of the surveillance camera, on the other hand, does.

2) Playing a "standard" game (always split 8s, hit on foo, stand on bar, yaada) will always be against you-- casinos aren't stupid. However, anywhere where casinos have to compete against one another, you have a chance to find "better rules"-- for the most part, anything that gives the player a choice is good. There are odds calculators out there on the web to tell you what you ought to "expect" from a given game. Expect odds for any game on a cruise ship to suck rocks. :)

3) Once you've found a close-to-even game (only off by a percent or so), then you can swing the odds barely in your favor by counting cards. Your expected payout is going to be less than a percent, and the fact that you've deviated from the "standard" play when the count is good will be a signal to the security camera operator to inform you that the house simply can't offer you a blackjack game anymore.

4) Even without counting, you can "make money" playing blackjack. On a good table, you can basically expect to keep your losses to a sufficient minimum (over large amounts of hands) to cover free drinks. Cheap entertainment over the long haul.

5) Even counting, you can't expect to walk up to a $5 table with twenty bucks and expect to parlay it into, well, anything. You need enough of a bankroll to handle long strings of "bad luck"-- numbers I've seen are between 200 and 400 times the wager at the table.

6) Similarly, a night of counting cards isn't going to make you fabulously wealthy overnight. If you play fifty hands at a $5 table, and you've pushed the odds into your favor by a half a percent, which is really good, your expected return is to walk out the door with $1.25 more than you started with. Glamorous, huh?

7) It's not illegal to count cards. It's also not illegal for a casino to tell you they're unable to offer you a particular sort of game.

With all of this, you have to play an awful lot of blackjack before you've parlayed your bankroll to where you can graduate to a bigger table with bigger payoffs. You can't lose count, you can't "feel lucky". Most people are better off simply playing the "rules" and making it back on free drinks...

-JDF

can they change their looks?

[sckeener]

Just wondering, how long can someone be banned?

If they were all banned in their 20s, what's to stop them from doing it again in their 40s?

I think I could be happy on a few million for 20yrs....

hmmm...what are you doing to plan for retirement? Studying math....

casino ad

[shrikel]

The funny part is that when I loaded the page, I got a casino pop-under.

Exactly

[bleckywelcky]

I was thinking that the whole way through reading the article (yes I read all 6 pages before deciding to post a comment, :P). Besides the fact that the Casinos are all owned and operated by huge conglomerate companies with Presidents, CEOs, and Chairmen that will still make more in a year than a card-counting team can win in a year, the Casinos will prolly make 10 times the winnings they dish out in any given night. Sure, this is all rationalization, but just move onto the actual semantics of the game and you don't have to rationalize anything. The game follows patterns, no matter how many decks are used, or the shuffling frequency of the decks, the game is simply made of patterns (although somewhat complex under certain circumstances). So why should someone be punished (even just barred) for watching the patterns and using them. It would be like a farmer being barred from the local market because he always decided to plant his fields in the Spring, realizing the pattern of weather to follow. It's ridiculous. Although the Casinos think this at heart, it is as if they are openly announcing that they are under practically no cirumstances willings to allow anyone to have a chance at winning anything... when they are a mecca gambling and supposedly random odds themselves.

Some things I found rather un-nerving though were this on the fourth page:

My first few days in Las Vegas, I get a small taste of the new paranoia. I awake one morning to discover that my laptop has been stolen out of my locked hotel room while I slept.

And this on the sixth page:

Lewis decided to go it on his own, forming an alliance with Jill Thomas and Andrew Tay. Then a few months later, someone broke into Thomas' apartment, stealing more than $50,000 in blackjack winnings from a safe in her bedroom. Although he has no proof, Lewis suspects that the robbery had something to do with the MIT team.

Pretty crazy stuff, almost like something out of an X-Files conspiracy episode or other equivalent conspiracy show/movie. I wouldn't imagine some Casino thugs ordering a break-in of someone's house to steal a measly $50k. But, I could imagine some Casino thugs ordering a break-in of someone's hotel room to steal some card counting trade secrets.

Re:Exactly

[DNS-and-BIND]

Oh, come on. There was no robbery. The player just stole the $50,000. Happens in card-counting teams all the time.

What you really need to know about Card Counting

[Sierra Charlie]

I've been a blackjack card counter since the late 1970's. I started out using the Revere APC system but switched in recent years to the excellent yet simple Knock-Out unbalanced count system.

This article, as with most Wired pieces these days, has a few grains of truth along with a lot of hype and dazzle. Here's a few points that should be made.

Fact #1: You don't have to be a math genius to count cards. Using the Knockout system, I just start with a count of zero and add 1 to my count every time I see a card with a value of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7. I subtract 1 from my count every time I see a 10 or face card. The size of my bet changes as the count goes up. It's that simple.

Fact #2: You can't make money at Blackjack unless you already have money. The way the statistics work out, you need a bankroll of approximately 1000 times your minimum bet to have a reasonable assurance that a bad statistical swing doesn't wipe you out. That means about a $5000 bankroll just to sit down at a $5 minimum blackjack table. Playing at that level will net you approximately $17.50 per hour.

Fact #3: It's pretty boring. While everyone else is having fun, you're sitting there playing a game that is the gambling equivalent of working a factory job. It's repetitive and tedious; you get penalized cash every time you make a mistake. Most people find that they don't have the discipline to do this over the long haul.

Fact #4: It's the antithesis of glamorous. The people you meet who are really trying to make money from the casino industry are a pretty unsavory lot. The few who have the discipline, bankroll and skill to beat the casinos also realize that it's important to look just like another player. The professional card counter at a given table is probably the paunchy, middle-aged guy in the "I love Las Vegas" tourist T-shirt.

Fact #5: It's a dying art. In the 70's, the games were so good, that it took very little to get an edge. The casinos aren't run by mobsters anymore though, they're run by Harvard graduates who understand the games just as well as you do. The rules aren't as favorable, more decks are in play, and they're introducing "Universal Shufflers" that have the capacity to destroy the concept of card counting permanently. The casinos make their money from slots now; they don't have to offer a hyper-competitive blackjack game to lure in players.

Fact #6: If you have a large bankroll, the willingness to study, the discipline to stick to your game plan no matter what, you can make some money playing blackjack. If you have all of the above, however, I guarantee you that you can find a better way to make money.

All of that being said, blackjack isn't a bad hobby. Friends of mine like to gamble, and my business sometimes finds me in Vegas. Instead of handing my wallot over to the casino, I instead make some money, have some free drinks and meet interesting people. That's not so bad.

Just don't listen to too much hype from Wired. :)

Logan Airport Security

[reverseengineer]

Neat article. However, I was rather perturbedby the opening anecdote about ferrying an enormous amount of cash through Logan Airport- the same one that the hijackers that destroyed the WTC flew out of. Bricks of hundred dollar bills, box cutters, no questions asked... just what the hell does security do there anyway?

Don't buy Beat The Dealer for the strategy

[GlenRaphael]

Thorpe's book referenced in the /. header is only interesting for historical purposes; The card-counting systems developed since then are much easier to use, more accurate and more relevant to the game as it's now played.

Instead, I recommend people start with Snyder's Blackbelt in Blackjack or Olaf's Knock-out Blackjack.

A good blackjack discussion website for serious players is Sanford Wong's bj21.com.

The Wired article is surprisingly accurate; usually the media makes a hash of articles about card-counting.

P.S. to any Griffin employees out there: I don't know anything about blackjack. Please remove me from your files. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. These aren't the droids you're looking for. :-)

Carmack got booted!

[nnnneedles]

I remember that, but later, well, even John Carmack got booted:

<I>A few of us took a couple days off in vegas this weekend. After about
ten hours at the tables over friday and saturday, I got a tap on the shoulder...

Three men in dark suits introduced themselves and explained that I was welcome
to play any other game in the casino, but I am not allowed to play
blackjack anymore.

Ah well, I guess my blackjack days are over. I was actually down a bit for
the day when they booted me, but I made +$32k over five trips to vegas in the
past two years or so.

I knew I would get kicked out sooner or later, because I don't play "safely".
I sit at the same table for several hours, and I range my bets around 10 to 1.<I>

Sorry can't find the .plan file link. :/

devising card counting techniques

[austad]

There are a ton of card counting techniques, and I believe it was in the rec.games.blackjack FAQ where I saw some payoff percentages associated with different methods.

I wonder how easy it would be to make a genetic algoritm that would find the "optimum" card counting technique.

Re:Odds

[reverseengineer]

Strictly speaking, even/odd and red/black bets on roulette aren't 50/50 either. They pay 1:1, as you'd expect from a 50/50 bet, but there are 38 spaces on a roulette wheel (37 in Monte Carlo, I'm told though)- 1-36 red/black odd/even, and two (or one) green zeros, which provide another color, and are neither even nor odd (you can debate whether zero is even, but the casino will not be swayed to your POV). This means your odds of hitting red on a red bet on a Vegas wheel are 18/38, or ~47.3%, but the payoff is only 1:1, as if the chance were actually 50%- it would be 1.11:1 if roulette weren't a way for casinos to rip you off. Incidentally, this means you can bet on both red and black, and still lose.

Re:Odds

[david duncan scott]

You want truly 50/50? Bet a color or odd/even on roulette.

Nope. You're forgetting the zeroes which, as I understand it, are neither red nor black, and neither even nor odd. Me, if I want to get rid of extra money, I just set fire to it at home and save myself the plane fare to Vegas.

Harry Anderson

[n8willis]

Pre-Night Court, Harry Anderson was a professional magician. Still is, I guess, but I bring it up to recommend his book Games You Can't Lose (B&N). He covers a lot, and with great style, including Blackjack strategy and winning legally at Craps, including the really good bets that they don't mark on the tables.

Plus, for all those hotshots out there who think it's cool to get tossed out of a casino, Anderson was banned from playing cards anywhere in the state of Nevada. Tells the story in the book....

N

Memory, not math.

[supabeast!]

Casinos wiped out card counters ages ago with massive decks that screw up the math. Winning blackjack is still pretty easy with memorization of the tables and techniques Avery Cardoza came up with in his book Winning Casino Blackjack for the Con-Counter." Anyone who wants to come out ahead in blackjack really, really needs to read this book.

Re:Memory, not math.

[geekoid]

it doesn't change a thing. there is asr still a known number of 10 point value card. if you have 6 decks then there are 96 10 point cards.

they only thing that can limit card counting is shuffling after each hand. in fact it is usually easier to card count on a table that uses multi-decks, because singly decks are shuffled too often.

Well, *duh*

[hawk]

>Unfortunately, casinos don't like losing money.
>Their sole business is the fact that people come
>in and give them money for no real reason >whatsoever.

BUt, but . . . doesn't the .com plan of making up for it in volume, or cash flow, or venture capital, or some such make up for that???

:)

hawk, Las Vegan in exile

A few tips for would be card counters

[interstellar_donkey]

I love to play blackjack. I used to play it a lot, but have since waned in my activities (most notably after 4 consecutive unlucky trips to Las Vegas).

It's really hard to look at an article like this and not run down to your local bookstore and pickup some of the many texts that show you the basics of card counting, but before any one does, there are a few things to consider:

You won't win a lot of money unless you have a lot of money to loose. Never, ever gamble with money you can't afford to loose; it's that simple. If you are planning a gambling trip, you have to set yourself a limit, and figure if you loose it all, you're still going to make rent, pay your bills, be able to get back home etc.

That having been said, lets assume you have $500 to gamble with. In fair conditions, playing in perfect form, (this is very, very hard to do) over the long run in a weekend, on averages, you may end up making ~$12 an hour. Yes, you could win much more, but on the other hand you could loose too. It's kind of hard to justify putting that kind of money on the line when your best expectation in the long run is to end up with the same amount of money you would get if you were working (albeit tax free as long as you don't win too much)

Then consider that if you learn the fundamentals of basic strategy (which is easy), the casinos edge over you really isn't that great, and you can take a smaller sum (say $100) last a long time, perhaps even get a few extra bucks, and just have a good time with your friends. I always take Vegas newbies to the Stardust, where you can get a $1 table 24/hr a day. Sure, they have a six deck shoe, but the play is slow and it's easy to learn. I find I have a good deal of fun sitting down with a $20 bill, making it last a long time, meanwhile getting juiced on free drinks (ok, $1 drinks, because it's hard to get a waitress and they won't come back often unless you tip them). The rule of thumb is, sit down with 20, leave with 10 and be completely sloshed. (never, ever, ever, get drunk trying to count cards or gambling with real money. It makes you play sloppy, and the booze silences that little voice inside your head that says if you go back to the ATM again you can't make rent).

Been there, done that (vicariously)

[Stephen Samuel]

A friend of mine did that. He got a grant of free CPU time on the mainframe at the University of Alberta in around 1979/80 to do stastical analisys on blackjack. He came up with a nice card counting system.. managed to reduce it to a single index-card cheat sheet. There were different rules for local (Edmonton) blackjack and Las Vegas.

He was able to make money off of it, but I'm not sure how much.

The FBI also used card counting many years ago when they did some undercover investigation in Las Vegas. They siphoned cash through the Casinos and then did statistical analysis on how much of it made it to the banks. They used Card counting to limit their losses.

Re:Foxwoods

[AssFace]

lol - Ocean's 11 reference?

I consulted on some neural net stuff for a company that does exactly what I said - there are a few of them that all compete.

I am surprised that they share the DB, but I guess it ends up being in their best interests.

Swingers did it for me!

[mekkab]

Yeah, Swingers had a great portrayal of a vegas casino!

I can't wait to lose my shorts while a bunch of 80 yr olds look on with delight (although they're probably just happy to still be alive!)

double down, baby!

Re:Them MIT kids are SWUFT!

[geekoid]

worse, ever not strong guy would know they would lose. its OK if every strong guy wns, as long as there is enough guys arounfd to try and loose. As a matter of fact it is neccessary for a casino to have winners, or nobody would ever go.

And this, my friends...

[Kintanon]

Is why Poker is better than Blackjack.
In a town fille with college students you can stroll into a random frat party, sit in on or start up a poker game, and walk out 2 hours later with 500$. Blackjack is for suckers.

Kintanon

Re:Card counting is fair

[geekoid]

funny, when I went to dealer school I seemed to miss that class...

They eye in the sky is trained to catch people, the dealer is little more then an auotmaton, as far as the casino is concerned.

Re:Odds

[SpinyNorman]

The low house edge for blackjack already assumes that you are playing perfectly (i.e. basic strategy)... If you DON'T play perfectly then the house will rape you just as well as at any other game.

Even playing perfectly though you will lose over the long run at blackjack unless you count and wang in/out or modify your bets significantly to take advantage of the count information. Winning "more times than not" without counting just means you're on a lucky streak (which could be hundreds of games long).

Re:What you really need to know about Card Countin

[mapmaker]

In late 2000/early 2001 I spent 6 months playing on the team that MIT has since been rolled into. The Wired article, while admittedly full of dazzle and drama, is mostly dead-on.

Your facts are not quite correct:

Fact #1: Maybe you don't have to be a math genius, but you have to be pretty f-ing sharp. The count you've described is only the first step in a real counting sytem. Your "knockout system" is called the "running count"; the "true count" is the running count divided by the number of decks remaining in the shoe (which is determined by subtracting the number of decks in the discard tray from the total number of decks per shoe) rounded down to the nearests whole number. The true count determines your bet - you multiply the true count times your base unit (say $100) to determine your bet for the next hand. Today's team counter has to do all this on the fly, instantaneously, while simultaneously chatting up the dealer, checking out the waitress's cleavage, and doing whatever else it takes to look like the average Joe Gambler. Then he has to signal his BP to make the appropriate bet and vary his play according to the count. It requires significant mental resources!

Fact #2: Your math is correct, but there is a way to make money at blackjack without having a huge bankroll. You play on a team - a few senior members can provide most of the bankroll (and take most of the profits, alas).

Fact #3: I've always found counting to be a bizarre mix of boredom and pure adrenal high. Yes, you're repetitively processing the same data stream for hours on end. But you're also this undercover superhero of sorts - using your superior abilities to make gobs of money under the unsuspecting (well, when things go well) noses of these greedy corporate thugs. It's the purest form of excitement I've ever found.

Fact #4: I've never counted solo, but being on the inside of a successful team is quite glamorous. There's just too much money around for it not to be.

FAct #5: Possibly true. Counting only works if the casinos don't stop you, and they only don't stop you if they don't realize you're counting. When mainstream magazines start publishing articles about your system, it ain't too clandestine anymore! Counters are in a continual arms race with the casinos, and this particular weapon is about obsolete. Counters are still inventing new ones, but things like continuous shufflers and facial recognition software are getting harder and harder to counter. It may be that we're reaching the point where a counter and his mind can't beat the technological countermeasures used by the casinos.

What are you smoking?

[El]

McDonald's can't ban anyone from coming in there; restaurants can't ban people from coming there who come there and order cheap meals along with water to save money.

Ever see those "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs? Fact is, if I own a property, I can tell anybody to get the hell out and come back, and if they come back, it is "criminal trespass"!!! Read the statutes for your state, I guarantee you you do not have a right to enter somebody else's property against their will! And if you really think you can't ban anyone, why not give out your address on the 'net, and we'll all come over and crash at your place for a couple weeks, ok?

Re:What are you smoking?

[dh003i]

Idiot. A business is different than a private home. Businesses have stocks, hence are public entities (that is, the public owns a share in them). Businesses are protected by special laws. Citizens of Neveda pay extra taxes to help protect Casino's from frauds. Hence, businesses -- especially Casino's -- have to play by public rules.

You can't constitutionally exclude someone from your place of business (if its an otherwise public place, which Casino's are) because they're black. You also can't exclude them because you don't make as much money off of them.

Don't like it? Too bad. That's the way it is. The problem is these inconsistencies when it comes to Casino's. Casino's are for some inexplicable reason treated differnetly from other businesses. McDonalds can't prevent someone from coming there because they're black, or because they order cheaper meals; yet, Casino's can do such things.

If a company wants to have shares, and wants to obtain the advantages the government offers to corporations, they have to play by public rules. If they don't want any of that, then I'm fine with them having whatever assinite rules they want. But if your going to receive special benefits off of MY TAX DOLLARS, you should have to play by public rules. That's why I think the Church should either not get any tax breaks, or have to reform their internal rules to allow (for example) homosexual marriages.

Anyways, my main gripe isn't that Casino's exclude people for unjust reasons. Its that they're all run by and affiliated with crooks. Read the article. You win, the Casino's don't give you your money. They harass people. They assault people. They make people "disappear".

Unlike some idiots here have suggested, I'm not basing my impressions of Casino's off of B-rated movies. I can't remember a movie I watched where a Casino played a predominant part. I'm also not basing it off of personal experience -- I've never gambled, and I find nothing fun about losing all of your money. If I'm going to go to Las Vegas, its going to be for the good cheap stuff there (food, hotel, strippers, prostitutes) and not to gamble. If I'm going to spend 100 bucks, its going to be on a blow-job, not a fucking black-jack game. ;-)

I'm basing my opinions of Casino's on what I've heard from those who do well in Casino's. Anyone who consistently does well in a Casino is harassed, violated, assaulted, murdered, etc etc. Again, read the article.

Btw, I find it rather funny that the ppl at /. can see that the likes of Hillary Rosen, Bill Gates, and Jack Valentini are dark shady characters, but somehow think that the people running Casino's in Las Vegas are angels.

If you are smart enough, you can't help it.

[DunbarTheInept]

It bothers me how people talk of card counting as if it was cheating, when it's not even an entirely voluntary act. To give a degenerate simple case, what if you saw four people at the table get aces in the last two rounds. You now KNOW the aces are gone from that deck, whether you want to know that or not. It's not like you can help it. Now just take that case and expand on it and imagine that you were a lot smarter and had a very good memory, like say a top echelon programmer would probably have. Now, how do you *not* count cards?

What it essentially boils down to is that the casinos are asking people to choose to deliberately forget specific things, as if that was even possible.

I dont see a problem, everything is fair

[stuart_farnan]

The entire setup seems entirely fair to me:

1. Some people here call card counting cheating, this is obviously rubbish, even the casinos dont see it that way, it is playing by the rules and you are fully entitled to play any way you like. The casinos decide on a certain way to play (each has slightly different rules) and these are based on statistical analysis to try and have an advantage. Card counting is simply the player doing a similar thing on their side.
   
2. Other people think that it stinks that the casinos ask you to leave when you win too much, but this is also totally fair. Its a two player game, you play by choice, and so do they. The reverse equivalent of them asking you to leave 'cos you are winning too much, is you walking out cos you are losing too much. Do you people think you should be able to force the casino to play you?

It's also a felony and federal case ...

[hmarq]

to do as you're suggesting, I'm not saying people don't do it, but I can tell you I was flown to El Paso, TX to testify by the DEA to testify against someone that did 4 $3000 cashiers checks in a day --- they couldn't make a drug case, but they could make a money laundering/structured transaction case -- you don't want to mess with the reporting paperwork -- there are lots of safegaurds in place to see aggregates that trigger reports as well...

Maybe you know this

[xenocide2]

But there's a somewhat famous story of a guy (occasionally attributed to MIT) who found a way to beat roulette, sort of. The idea was that although the game is in the favor of the house, if you're allowed to place bets while the ball is rolling you can shift the odds in your favor. The guy put a computer in his shoe heel to tell him where to bid, with some sort of feedback and a wire running through his pantleg.

Illegal? No and yes.

[fm6]

Now the casino's have the right not to let you play for what ever reason they decide, but they can't arrest you for counting cards, they can only kick you out and ask you not to come back.

Hmm. I had been under the impression that card counting was illegal ever since I saw Rain Man. Shouldn't get my legal info from movies.

Anyway, I did some research, and strictly speaking you're right. There's no law against card counting, only the casino's right to bar known counters from its tables. However, a counter can get into legal trouble. If you try to sneak into a casino that's barred (which might be a casino you've never actually played at!) you can be arrested for trespassing. Even worse, they can refuse to give you your winnings!