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Wireless Pedal Power Computing in Laos
An anonymous reader writes "'An innovative, pedal powered, wireless network provides Internet access to off-grid villages in Laos,' using LINUX-based software which is being localised into the Lao language.
The 'Jhai Foundation's makes the Jhari computer, which consists of a single-board PC (the MZ-104 based upon the Mach-Z single-chip computer - equivalent to a 133 MHz 486 system), uses "embedded" circuit boards, the sort that are used in industrial equipment, and is devoid of moving parts such as fans or disc drives, made to operate for long periods of time without service or attention.'"
...of the episode of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles where Rocksteady and Bebop have to pedal to keep the Technodrome's power running. Yes it does.
How about marketing some of these to the MMORPG players... it'd be just like real crack, get your high and lose weight!
that's funny, but will it work?
a pedal powered UPS.. would certainly make a sensible option for long blackouts, if the battery from the UPS is dying you can just jump on the excercise bike and throw a few hundred amps through it.
:)
And better yet, you could employ a school leaver to do it so no need to tire yourself out!
...how much pedaling must be done to power a computer? Admittedly they mentioned they were using low power parts and all, but it seems like you would need to pedal for a while to store up enough charge in the battery to use the computer for even a short while.
It seems to me the project isn't finished by far. But I feel envious, here are people doing good for a large group of people that need it the most. Other goups come to mind. Why don't *I* do something like this? It would make the world a better place and I would have fun doning it. Infact, why are we not all do something like this?
-- (:> jms cs.vu.nl (_) --"---
"The team in Rochester is hard at work localising Linux and the KDE environment for the Lao language"
I like using KDE, but I don't think it would be useable on a 486...good luck to them regardless.
Basically, this system could work without maintenance or electricity in any of it's elements for many years. And that is just amazing.
"The equipment will be powered by electricity stored in a car battery charged by "foot cranks" which are essentially bicycle wheels and pedals hooked to a small generator. The generator is connected to a car battery and the car battery is connected to the computer. Connection with each computer to the others will be by radio local area network (LAN). Each village will connect to one repeater station powered by a solar means on the ridge near the river valley. That station will then send the radio signal to the microwave tower nearby and eventually to a server in Vientiane that will connect the villages to the internet."
When will my hamster be able to lose fat and power my linux box at the same time?
just can't buy a simple generator which will be working on coal or some other sort of energy?!
But * pedals *?!!! Come one! It is the new millenium already!
(ring, ring) Hello. I am calling from a small Laotian village to tell you about the great savings you can get by subscribing to Time magazine for only pennies a day...(hangup)
Or this:
("You have mail") These small village Laotian girls are waiting for you! Just click here to see hot wild natives going crazy for you live!
Mordor...a magical, mythical land where women are more rare than dragons--but where every man would rather find a dragon
Hans: dat compudah is for da girly-man.
Franz: ya, mine is a beowulf cluster.
Hans: ya, of Crays.
Franz: ya, und they are overclocked.
I can see other uses for lower power consumption computer devices. The fact of the matter is that computers and their associated equipment suck up a lot of power - people or groups interested in limiting their power usage could utilize these to great benefit. Public schools are always interested in lowering their costs - our local high school, for example, has hundreds of computers running at any given time. The electricity costs to the district as a whole must be astronomical. For basic websurfing and word processing, which is the primary function of most school computers, these would be ideal, and I can imagine that the cost savings in terms of the power bill would quickly pay off the initial investment. *shrug* Just a thought.
Your lucky if they can read let alone need or care about a computer.
http://saveie6.com/
Linux keeps on keepin' on. Very Cool. Kudos to all involved!
If they insist on a GUI they should go for something with less bloat like fvwm or LiteStep.
In a poor country like Laos where food is scarse, powering equipment with food is revolting. What would be the slogan, "steal a child's meal, pedal your way to the net"? Surely there are other sources of energy.
I tried this at home and it doesn't work... Every time I cycle power my machine just reboots :(
Thank you, I shall be here all week!
Just an american (european) way of thinking that anyone who is not in the US / europe must be living in straw huts and hunt wild animals for a living.
There are actually educated people in the 'third' world (*wow*). The fact that they come up with a method of running PCs without burning fossile fuels is something we should envy. Especially now with a completely flopped 'sustainable world' congres in south AFRICA.
I would love to have one of those spring-powered radios but the fact is our 'first world' society is so fixed on CO2 production we can't get them here.
If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
Hmmmm Equiv to a 133mhz 486..probably486sx no damn fpu!!.... while this is noble and all none of these "computers" as they call them.... can not be used for all the MMORPG now out there.. how can we expect our economy to survive if we can't hook people living in huts in 3rd world countries on money makers like evercrack and DAoC..
they should really have more modern pc's and ahve the pedal power hooked up to teams of 10 kids at a time!!!
in my experience computer geeks have pretty bad bo (body odour).
Can you imagine how much this would compound the problem?
-- james
equivalent to a 133 MHz 486 system
lessee.. 133MHz. That's over a million cycles a second. Damn, they can move fast over there.
Perhaps, it is for that very reason, my friend. Education and ideas are severely limited in poor parts of the world. With such 'poor man' technology remote villages can develope learning programs through 'net resources freely available. And perhaps, if written English in unknown to anyone in the village, on of our resourceful people can write a web page translator from English to "..." remote language. the point is. The sooner poor continents like Africa get wired, the sooner they will take command of their lives from the last vestiges of colonialism. Education can save them from Aids, kick start the economy, and provide people a way they can network against warlords. Who knows? But it is a resource they must have. You have been flamed. The Mayor has spoken.
A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.
Golden Triangle Druglords go bankrupt, due to increased competition from poppy farmers selling their product via the internet. One anonymous farmer was quoted as saying 'With e-commerce, the cost of transaction per customer dwindles to almost nothing--pennies. Eliminate the middleman. Sell directly to your customers, and you too can become a cash money millionaire.' Who said e-commerce doesn't work?
" Your lucky if they can read let alone need or care about a computer."
Gosh, and I bet they are so primitive they can't use apostrophes either!
("Your"/"You're").
Dumbass.
graspee
perhaps, finally Physical Ed and web surfing come together. One class pedals on the machine for the exercise while another class uses the computer technology.
A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.
Oh well - I am in a third-world country (1) . Reading Slashdot. Typing a reply to your troll. Is there something wrong with me? Am I going to go blind?
(1) South Africa - yes we have not technically come up the ranks if you're out of the big cities. Large parts of SA would benifit from portable power that does not require walking 100km to the nearest petrol/diesel/coal/paraffin depot.
__
cs
doesn't stand for anything! It's called Linux. Thank you.
"All your base are belong to this file I send in order to have your advice."
Wow, a group of individuals who actually get in better shape the more they surf the internet. With this level of constant exercise and limitless access to knowledge, who knows?--The Laotians may soon be our superiors! Almost like puling a rickshaw down the information superhighway...
[este]
Uh? Like how does it make you steal a child's meal if your village gets a generator which can be used to generate electricity by foot pedals? Instead, they could use the SAME generator and battery for warming up the food. Just if Anonymous Cowards started surfing the whole day, it might become a problem
Providing the villages with access to information and with means of communication can instead change something in the long run too. Or?? Did you have a point, if so please explain - your comment did not make any sense to me.
This is nothing new...
Gilligan did this years ago for the Professor.
Actually I have volunteered at peace corps and worked in Peru and I have visited many parts of Central America. I can tell you that %85-%90 of the population can barely even put food on the table for their families. They typically make maybe a few hundred dollars a year. If I were one of the Peruvians, I would much rather prefer modern farming equipment, food and a better education for my children then a machine which would give me none of my needs. The few educated and upper class Peruvians already have computers in their offices and homes. I admit reliable power is a problem but most have generators or they just put up with the outages. I for one agree that more proper resources should be spent for the third world for things like food and medical vacinations then computers.
Infact, I recall seeing a story here on slashdot several months ago about all the donated pc's going to Asia just being thrown out in a dump. No one really wanted them.
http://saveie6.com/
One thing that would be awesome is if there were some form of e-banking available through this sytem. Right now all their "savings" are in Lao kip, which is about as worthless as a third world currency can be. They would be very happy if they could save in dollars.
Some of you may laugh at the idea of using 486s, but I can tell you I saw a lot of Lao hunters out using muzzle loader muskets that must have been 150 years old. If the technology works and it's available, it doesn't matter how outdated it is.
Imagine if we would add generators to all those useless stationary bikes, stair masters, and treadmills at the health clubs. Why, a couple thousand alone could power all the tofu makers in California.
These guys are thinking about pedal power, but the Laotians will use their creative powers to come up with other power sources. I'm sure these things will be adapted to use water power and animal power. All Laotian villages are built on rivers or streams, and all already use animal power sources for various things, especially pumping water. These things could also be solar. Laos has a lot of sunlight.
Hey hey...we don't need anyone's real-world experience here. The fact is, Westerners are evil and third world are virtuous. Anyone offering a viewpoint that contradicts this dogma is a heretic, and is eligible to be moderated as flamebait.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Other third world countries no doubt have higher literacy rates than many 1st world countries. For example education is compulsory in Thailand (right next to Laos) until the age of 18.
Just to defend my little island, you can get them no problem in Great Britain in a couple of different types.
And I'd reckon we're slightly less confused about the state of the rest of the world. One of the benefits of our previous colonialist policies is that we have much closer ties with these third world countries than many other nations.
jh
jh
I would love to have one of those spring-powered radios but the fact is our 'first world' society is so fixed on CO2 production we can't get them here.
Of course they are available. For example, see wind up radio, here or any other link from google.
I don't know about Laos. I've never been that far east, and I like to talk only of what I know (you know, like everyone here on Slashdot). But the Internet is not what people need in the jungles of central Africa.
Bill Clinton once came to Africa and decided that what the schools all needed was to be wired. I have no idea whatever came of his plans for this, but the point is, I really didn't understand how he could possibly think the Internet would offer a higher ROI than, say, a few textbooks. Or pencils. Or teachers who had better than a 3rd-world high-school education themselves.
The Onion got it. Not so farfetched as it sounds.
"How can you claim that you are anti-crack, while still writing a window manager?" — Metacity README
Why not use wind or solar, because all that pedaling is going to old pretty quickly.
Sure, a 486-class system will be sluggish with KDE, but as long as it has a healthy dose of RAM, it'll do fine.
:-P
As for the banal comments about Laotian/third-world intelligence, the fact is that these people are human beings with the very same potential that we all have. The difference is that many of them have simply not had the same opportunities. This project aims to rectify that problem. A Cisco and Dilbert 2-thumbs up!
While watching Discovery Channel here in Tokyo a month ago or so (I admit it, I'm a Discovery junkie), an interesting comment regarding mammoth-hunting early homo sapiens was made. The jist of it was that if you took one of these early homo sapiens and raised them in our world, they'd have just as much potential for success as any of us.
I would hope that might make folks who spew "third-world-stupid" comments think twice before doing so. Opportunistically challenged does not equate with stupid. Unless, of course, you're married to your sister and live in a trailor park somewhere in the South.
This seems like something Al Queda would enjoy
making use of...
I think AC is missing the point somewhere. The main reason food is scarse (and your beloved childen are eating cold food) is because the USA spent so many years bombing Laos in the name of freedom. Then again maybe you are right - better not to "let" them have Internet access or they may get to see how the first world lives.
Actually, if one person can power a single 133mhz 486,
Then a Beowulf cluster of the things might actually be useful.
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
.. this means the lao's hackers are not into pizza while coding...
Some simpler X11-based toolkits should run fine on that kind of machine, but KDE and Gnome are both pretty resource hungry.
Hmm, pedal-powered computers you say? And you thought you got upset that a file was taking so long to download!
But seriously. Why not use a $200 800MHz PC from Walmart, and just swap the hard drive with some solid-state storage? I'm sure it would be a much lower-cost solution, and shouldn't use up signficantly more power (especially if you underclocked the CPU).
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Here is how I used a mouse to power an ARM based CPU. I cant see it taking a whole human to power a PC.
Maybe they should use lower power chips?
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego
As if the Laotians need PC's! They are too busy supplying opium to the world to need PC's. In the Laotian language, shit, let's keep them in the stoned age! Heaven's Gate forbid they learn English. Doh!
Wouldn't it be interesting to have a race for the "most usable minimalist machine for daily use", instead of the biggest, brightest, prettiest, etc.
I mean, what does it take to browse the internet, receive email, write a letter, do kitchen maths, and some coding ?
It would make a change from hyping the latest graphics card and fastest cpu and prettiest casings....
Yeah! Lets export coal to Laos! Yeah! That's the ticket!
Now here is an area where the real Billy Gates, the great philanthropist, could shine.
He could support a project like this with a tenth of a per cent of his annual income!
ZFMicro (maker of the MachZ - now called the ZFx86 CPU) is currently involved in a lawsuit with National Semiconductor over National's commitment to act as silicon foundry for the ZF design. See http://www.zfmicro.com/pdf/InvBusDailyZFvsNSC.pdf
From the article: "National had sales of $1.5 billion for the year ended May 27. ZF's Sales peaked at about $4 million in 2001 and have virtually ceased as a result of the dispute with National."
Use of an embedded board based on this chip may prove to be less than prudent. Of course there are plenty of other embedded boards that will run Linux...
It sounds like a good project if they can make a serious network with the wifi system, but to me living in the north of thailand it sounds a little bit like a technicians project to proof their skills. In Chiang Mai here you could buy a Pentium 166 mhz for about 5000 baht, that is USD 120. Is someone going to tell me that there is money for WIFI and not for pc's like this? There are a lot of NGO's operating here and the UN. I'm sure it's possible to find a little pot with money from which a network can be build of say 50 stations. Don't think btw that Laos is not connected in the cities and touristcentra there are already internetcafe's, it's just that very few people at the countryside would speak enough english or has enough knowledge to operate them besides the students in Vientenne. It's an intresting experiment but don't think to much of things like that. 95% of the people at the countryside in Thailand doesn't know how to use the internet and they advanced further. The people here need better schools and better schoolbooks. English at the countryside is being thought by people who hardly speak it themselves. You cry when you see some of the mistakes in their books.
Best luck anyway though!
I hope that's just a mistake made by the news reporter and not the actual team behind this project. A car battery isn't designed to survive deep discharges and will end up unable to hold a charge rather quickly. They should have checked out the car and deep cycle battery FAQ at: http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/. A deep cycle battery is what really needs to be used.
While it would also make this project more expensive, a solar cell would be a worthwhile investment to keep the battery fully charged during periods of non-use, and to make up for people who cheat the system by using the computer but not contributing pedal power (obviously if there is a battery, this is possible).
The other concern I'd have is what happens to these batteries after their service life is exhausted? Hopefully the members of this project will collect and recycle them. Toxic lead and acid is the last thing we need to be making these people deal with.
---
Siggy, siggy, siggy, can't you see? Sometimes your puns just irritate me.
Dont know if someone had posted this before, but,India, which has a much larger rural population is also experimenting something innovative. They are trying out motorbike riders who take laptops to rural areas ! More at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_2 124000/2124712.stm
After a long, back breaking day at work, the farmers return home to pedal up some power for a relaxing evening of web surfing.
Remember when we surfed the net (well crawled actually) using 386's? heck I had a compaq desk pro 286 for pulling email at one point, using pegasus and win 3.1.
90% of the computers in use today, are grossly overpowered for the basics actually needed. Heck, word processing can be done (and was) reasonably well, on an apple 2+ or Ibm "Personal Computer".
The difference between "need" and "want" grows greater every day here in the west.
Bufoed Lamonte (who forgot his login password again)
Worried they'll take your job?
Read this story months ago.
Tracy Johnson
Old fashioned text games hosted below:
http://empire.openmpe.com/
BT
...seriously. Given the amount of time I spend working on my computer each day, it'd be great to combine it with some exercise as well. Burn calories and get your work done at the same time.
today: using the asian masses to pedal-power a hoard of 486's
tomorrow: matrix style baby-farms
rediculous. Access to educated people in some areas of the world is difficult. But once one person knows how to use a computer in a village then they can teach each other, then learn more by the great amount of info already out there. /.
this is not about a misdirected fulfillment of a resource, but the tool where such places as Africa can become aware of themselves, of their civil rights, of the ways they can fight off disease, cleanliness, heck. how to smelt steel.
this is vital.
A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.
As soon as the computer was booted up the people started downloading movie trailers -- unfortunately they were all in Commodore 64 format!
Last I heard, they were kicking out/killing all the white farmers and the food supplies have vaporized. What's the ETA for when everyone is dead from murder or starvation?
Hey, if you're like me and you don't have the skillz to hack a laotian l10n or the time/committment to travel to Laos (though this is incredibly appealing), you can always just give some of your hrrible corpulent filty soul-polluting lucre to their cause. I spend $5 on lunch without thinking about it. This is cooler than lunch.
Two days this week I eat home-make mac'n'cheeze and the project gets the $5 I save. It's that simple. For us consumer-americans, realizing the power of our spending choices is the first step to re-taking a position of active relavence in society.
Howard Dean for president
I work for Easy Racers (www.easyracers.com)
It is my job to know how much power, average and athletic, people can produce. The answer is this:
about 100 watts average sustainable (as in more than one hour) output for an average person.
Anyone who can put more than 200 watts for an hour can pat themselves on the back. 300 watts or more for an hour and maybe you should be looking at racing bikes for a living! So assuming you have an average generator of say 80-90% efficiency, producing 100 watts on hour is probably about the max for the "general population". Which is still plenty to run an efficient laptop.
Imagine a Beowolf Cluster of THESE!!!
This would be great for all of those fat, donut eating programmers in the US who sorely need some exercise while they work (I am one of them.)
Awww, how touching. What a nice humanist outlook you have.
I hate to question your qualification to speak on the subject, but you sound kind of naive. It would be nice if the world worked as you say, but the parts I have seen, frankly, do not. Making a lasting impression on a culture, for which both you and I see a need [and which offends many educated minds, BTW - the classic missionary vs. anthropologist battle - but that's neither here nor there], takes a lot more than shipping in a few laptops and solar panels, and rigging up a cell tower or satellite modem or something. I get the feeling you do not quite appreciate how much more.
First there is the matter of deciding who will be responsible for the computer equipment. Remember, nobody yet has a clue how to use it, and you as an outsider don't have any way of judging the people. So you do the only possible thing: give it to the chief. The computer becomes a tool of politics - more on that below.
Then there is the training aspect. Have you ever tried to teach someone to operate a computer whose native language doesn't have a word for "computer" or "keyboard" or "quote" or "pointer" or "icon" or "sentence" or "space" or "disk"? I have. The only way it was possible to make any progress at all was to revert to French, which neither of us spoke fluently, so it was rough going. (They do have a word for "mouse"....) Note that a language barrier is only a thin disguise for what is actually a cultural barrier. The desktop metaphor, for example, isn't as useful as you'd think when people don't work in offices.
Moving on. Now that some bright kid or kids have picked up the basics of how to send and receive spam, we come to maintenance, vandalism and politics. I know, I know, you probably don't believe people could possibly be so self-destructive as to steal the satellite phone, leaving the computer as basically a doorstop, if these people even had doors, which many don't. You believe that since the 486-class machines mentioned in the article (see, I'm still on topic) are designed to be robust, with no moving parts and all, that they will actually be robust and not break down when faced with the sort of humidity you find in a rain forest nine months of the year. You believe that the truck battery, which is used to power the thing, will not grow legs within two days, or that if it does stay put, that it will last longer than a year. You believe that those who have been trained to take good care of their gateway to the Internet will actually exercise proper maintenance procedures. You believe that the computer will not divide the village into haves and have-nots, and that the whole thing won't be stolen or vandalised by the have-nots - people who will have no clue how to operate any of it - out of sheer jealousy for the haves. You believe that the OS will never crash and need a reinstall (a good bet, with Linux, but still) - at which time it would most likely become a paperweight, for whoever can afford paper.
In short, my friend, you haven't lived in central Africa. This isn't racism or cultural imperialism talking, it's experience. "Things fall apart," wrote Chinua Achebe. The great Nigerian writer knew what he was talking about.
Finally there is the small question of money, and ROI. I guess whoever is paying for this program can do what they wish, but putting the Internet out in the middle of nowhere won't be cheap, no matter what you do. If you were to make a wish list of how these people could really benefit from Western civilisation, you might start with...
- schools: textbooks, blackboards, chalk, pencils/pens, books - i.e. libraries, though that's getting into the "dreaming" stage. After all, in many 3rd-world cultures, the language has only recently been written down at all - so most available books will be in another language. You could start in writing and/or translating your own books and publishing them yourself, as some people I know have done. A bit tedious but you gotta start somewhere.
- adult literacy: primers, books, teachers, child care - and see note above about books.
- plumbing: even hand pumps would be a luxury in many places I've been. Running water would be great, if you had...
- electricity: diesel generators are hard to operate when diesel fuel is $8/gallon and hard to get. I once thought solar panels were the answer, but they're extremely expensive and limited.
- medicines: antibiotics, quinine, Flagyl, and aspirin would go a long way for areas that don't have them. Vaccines, too, for things like measles and polio.
- public health: literature, public health education personnel (AIDS education is still MUCH needed out there, unlike in the West), and miscellany such as traps to eradicate tse tse fly populations (yes, such traps exist, and yes, sleeping sickness is still very much alive in this day and age). Actual doctors and nurses would be most welcome in any number of villages I could name, but those are a bit more expensive. Literacy and proper plumbing are also big parts of the public health equation - see above.
- agriculture - introducing new crops, new methods of farming, and technology at a locally sustainable level (plows, carts, etc) - so that when the white man leaves, there is some chance of things not falling apart.
In my book, Internet access is far down the list of things the people I've met could use from the West to improve their lives. Sure, it has a sort of Slashdot gushy excitement to it, but, like many public aid projects, it would have a lot more to do with Westerners feeling like they're making a difference than with anyone actually making a difference. Would you really rather have the 'net than the indoor john? (Don't answer that, slash-crowd! You guys are disgusting!)Fortunately (to get back on topic), the project the article talks about is being run partly by actual Laotians (is that the right word), so presumably they have already thought through such issues as I have presented here. As I've said before, I've never been to Asia. Maybe this project can actually be made to work.
"How can you claim that you are anti-crack, while still writing a window manager?" — Metacity README
Laos is a fantastic place, with great people. While I appreciate that it is cool to do this from a technical perspective, I would think that providing water filtration (or even running water!) to these villiages would be a more worthwhile endeavour.
One of the most striking features of these towns (aside from the baling wire power grid) is how isolated they are. I predicted (two years ago) that I had found one spot where I could be saved from e-mail for at least another decade. Guess I was wrong.
If anybody makes it to Xam Nua, let me know if one of my favorite places is still as beautiful with telephones and internet access! (Vang Vieng surely is not!)
I would add to this that if someone is really interested in helping out, time is the most valuable donation. You don't need too many qualifications to teach (or to assist at a school), and it is rewarding.
The costs:
Airfare to Bangkok - $550
Train to Vientiene - $20
Truck to the middle of nowhere - $2
Month's living expenses - $200
It really isn't that hard!
Before all of that, I'm sure Laos was a great country. Too bad we had to bomb their.... uh... I give up. Yeah, we're horrible people in America... Now I want to cry.
Simple software for communicating with other villages and text processing for business is the order of the day in Laos.
I can't help but wonder whether alternative energy sources wouldn't be more simple, though. I hear that Laos gets quite a bit of sun these days. Enclosed solar panels might be easier. Less peddling, at least.
Can you imagine the weight you'd lose running FSCK on a 120 gig drive?
They are the ones with enormous thighs.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
You have many good points and I will concede that there are many difficult obstacles in Africa's future. Your point, in total, is that implementation of internet access is difficult to maintain, to use, etc., but your points do not tell us why these resources could be left out of any kind of serious plan for real progress. Notice: "part of the plan" all i pointed out is that the knowledge may be obtained through the internet that is not obtainable elswhere. One teacher may teach many. In short: Your mistake is thinking difficult=impossible=should not do. Wrong. I am truly aware of the difficulties, at least conceptually. But this little technology(topic), is just a small tool for that goal. Social divisions? sure. poverty. have/have nots. sure. truly terrible. No joke there. uess we shouldnt try anything that we can't implement all at once. wave my wand and POOF!!! everyone has a DELL! and cable access(bandwidth social classes) oh and good french. C'mon. id love to but... small implementations like public libraries, may still be benificial. at last. how can i write anything more than half intelligent so late? sorry for the ramblings. Oh. Humanist thoughts are useful. Good Will should never be looked down upon. things are often simpler than you may think, if the right solution is implemented. one key can unlock a complex crypt-lock. good evening .
A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.