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Egyptian Pyramid Rover Finds... Another Door
JoeRobe writes "In what appears to be more evidence that ancient Egyptian architects had a sense of humor, MSNBC is reporting
that the pyramid rover has determined what was behind the door at the end of a mysterious shaft alluded to earlier - another door."
Am I the only one who fears that the door, currently very hard to get to because it is at the end of a long narrow passage, might soon be the door, extremely hard to get to because it is at the end of a long narrow passage with a broken robot jammed in it.
How is this different from a story posted two days ago?
How can it be live when the webpage says:
The National Geographic Channel special Pyramids Live: Secret Chambers Revealed airs in the United States on Fox Television on Monday, September 16, at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
The only way I know to air a show at 8pm Eastern and Pacific is to have it recorded! So now, is it live? Or is it recorded?
This was tried several years ago. The robot they used did not have a fiber optic camera, and was unable to see past the door, however, it did have a laser on it, and they shined the laser through the cracks in the sides of the door and were unable to see the dot, so there is some evidence that there is a large room behind the door.
The new robot has a fiber optic camera, and some kind of device which will allow it to see through up to 3 feet of rock.
One thing that kind of pisses me off about the whole egyptology thing, is that the egyptian government is pretty strict on who they let come and do work like this over there. If they don't agree with some of your views on the history of the pyramids, good luck getting a permit to do anything there. The history of the pyramids is very sketchy, and how the traditional egyptologists think their theories are 100% correct is very arrogant.
You gotta love America, "Tonight we break in to ancient burial sites LIVE!" Will it have musical performances? What about cheesy hosts who do mummy jokes every 5 mins.?
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Pretty crafty letting a robot take the blame. I can hear the stories years from now...
"And the next morning, the robot failed to come out of its tent. When they went in to check, they found the robot frozen in horror, its monitor displaying The Blue Screen of Death!"
If someone's planning on making a DivX of this, I'd really love to see it.
(I'm in Japan and don't these channels.)
I feel a bit guilty for asking, so feel free to leave in the commercials - I'll watch them as my penance.
Cheers,
Jim
(jim at mmdc dot net)
-- My Weblog.
I watch Shaft exploring programs almost every night, just need to get the right cable channels.
A journey of a thousand miles starts with a brutal anal raping at airport security
The BEST place to get info about the shafts and the history is:
http://www.cheops.org/
It is a site constructed by Rudolph Gattenbrink and contains all of his findings in a very public way... AutoCAD drawings of how each block was cut to form the shaft, etc...
Zahi Hawass (The director of the Giza site) loves to take credit for anything and everything.. I true ego-maniac... I would love to see Rudolph Gattenbrink get the credit he deserves...
There is a petition located at:
http://www.dailygrail.com/petition/
yes this is off topic, and yes I will get modded down as such.
man, if I had cable, I'd LOVE to give you a divx of it. hell, I'd even mail you a copy of the cd. Why?
Because it's frickin fair use!
If you can't watch a show, it is within your FAIR USE to have someone to record it at a later time.
My parents would always do that for me when I'd miss saturday moring cartoons to go to my sanchin ryu classes. that was fair use... that's the DEFINITION of fair use.
So why is this different? because it's Divx? because he asked on an open forum? if that's the case, would it be illegal to ask your bowling buddies if they could tape a show for you?
he said he'd be willing to watch the commercials, which he probably wouldn't anyways if he was watching it live(channel surf, bathroom, etc).
This is the kinda shit that makes me sick. that someone automatically thought it was in bad taste because he was excersizing his fair use rights.
To the parent poster, as I said, I don't have cable either. If someone does score you a divx of it, let me know.I doubt they'll ever release this bad boy to dvd.
as for the moderators who are gonna mod me as flamebait or a troll, blow me. I have promise you I have more karma than you have mod points(unless it's an ed.).
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Let's hope they don't find an empty Coke bottle, too.
There they were, sitting in the van with all those dials, and the cat was dead. -V. Marchetti, CIA
Rudolph Gantenbrink and his team discovered the door some years ago. Zahi responded by rushing them out of the country and making sure that they wouldn't be able to come back.
For years Zahi Hawass has claimed that there is "nothing" to see up the shafts, that there is no "door". Now, he's gone 180 degrees and claims there IS a door. The whole thing is a circus, and Zahi Hawass wants to be ringmaster. He also wants to lay claim to whatever is behind that door--they've completely locked Gantenbrink out of this whole procedure, hijacking what is rightfully his "claim".
I'm sure he would be able to find out what lies behind the vaults of Al TutCapone..
a hieroglyph that roughly translates to "Ha-Ha"
It seems obvious to me what this shaft is. It leads directly into the Queen's chamber so it must be a laundry shoot. Unfortunately, Khufu's dirty Sun God Underoo's must have been stolen 1000's of years ago.
Egyptian Engineer 1: "Hey Ahumhuphet!" /see/ these things!"
Egyptian Engineer 2: "Yo!"
Egyptian Engineer 1: "Check it out, I designed this really long, small passage that leads to a door, then it goes on, and leads to another door!"
Egyptian Engineer 2: "Why?"
Egyptian Engineer 1: "...dunno... thought it would be cool"
Egyptian Engineer 2: "Man, this is like your idea to draw aliens on hieroglyphs! Its not like anyone is ever going to
Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
Wasn't this the howlingly un-funny sunday cartoon?
you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
why don't they just carefully excavate into it from the outside, instead of going to all the touble of sending these robots in etc...
Let me get this straight. You want to explore one of the wonders of the world, by cutting fucking great holes in it?! Please tell me you're not a brain surgeon.
... and I only watched the last 5 minutes or so . . .
Robot proceeds forward through hole in door . . .
Excited Host Lady: Describe what's happening now for us!
Expert: The robot is proceeding forward through the hole in the door.
Excited Host Lady: Oooooo! Those look like hieroglyphics! Writing on the wall!
Expert: Cracks. Those are cracks.
They might find more information about the ancient race of skeleton people.
OddManIn: A Game of guns and game theory.
I can't believe I watched this. I knew it was going to be the worst 2hours of television I've ever seen, but still I was sucked in.
How come they didn't take the camera rover out and put the one with the drill in there to drill a hole through the new found door?
I thought they had xrayed the door already, did they know that the new door was there?
How many doors and how many specials will it take to reach the secret chamber?
Who was that British-accent babe commentator? Did any other guys here want to drive their rover up her secret chamber?
--
Does anyone remember
... what's behind the *other* door?
ANOTHER DOOR! AND ANOTHER!! AND ANOTHER AND ANOTHER AND ANOTHER!!!!
I'm sure of it.
We've finally discovered the hole in the universe that will revolutionize our perception of reality: behind every opened door is another door!
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
This show bugged me because they dole out hard information so sparingly. Who cares whether Ms and Mr Brit announcer are short of breath. Why make us wait so long to see the CGI tour of the pyramids?
If this thing wasn't broadcast live, if they had cut back on the breathless chatter from the announcers, the informational part of this broadcast could have fit in half an hour.
Here in Britain, National Geographic are showing the 'live' exploration time-shifted to peak viewing hours tonight.
:-)
I just heard a huge dramatic trailer for the show on my radio, which started just after the newsman announced "...huge disappointment, there was nothing to see."
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
It's another door.
Somewhere from the great beyond some dead Pharoh is laughing his ass off.
After watching the show last night, why do I suddenly think of Yosimite Sam opening door after door, while Bugs nails up new doors on the other end?
-Ed
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(I'll stop myself from explaining my plan to use a webcam, my Pentium running Linux, 20 10-foot USB extension cords, and a wind-up NunZilla to explore the corridor...)
Carousel is a lie!
Because the robot won't fit through this one inch hole. For the next try, they should build a robot that is able to drill a hole big enough for itself to move through.
Did you know you can fertilize your lawn with used motor oil?
It'd be much better to have the scientists pulverize some potential load-bearing walls instead of just working their way in through cooridors that are already in place. It's just a pyramid after all - who cares if we destroy it in the process of revealing its secrets. There's plenty more after we're through with this one!
Why bother.
it's already fucked up by all the tourism, so why not :(
The Stargate!
That extra door is just a plaster mockup the technicians from Cheyenne Mountain left behind.
It's just an old abandoned set from the TV show "Get Smart".
Should keep them busy for a while, anyway.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
My favorite "startling revelation" in the program had to be the bit where the "discovered" that in order to feed the huge workforce, they simply took the way they did things around the house and did them on a much larger scale.
I figure sixth graders could have come up with everything they said. Sad really.
Here are more beer pots... They must of contained beer...
And, look at the fingerprints... Surely Eygptians built this... My question is, wouldn't they have done their best to make sure flat surfaces were just that, flat, and free of fingerprints, because I would think fingerprints would make the thing look ugly.
Next point which really got to me was the fact that NO SLAVES were used and that it was a labor of love... That's such BULLSHIT. The evidence presented allows one to conclude several facts.
1) There was good food... Meats, fish, probably fruit. BUT was there enough for all? This I doubt. The better food was either a reward for the most productive teams OR for the skilled workers.
2) There were dorms... But only for about 2,000... This would mean an estimated 23,000 had to sleep elsewhere... Again leading to a conclusion of two or three possible workforces.
3) "Advanced" medical surgery was available... BUT for who? The skilled workers or the slave mules?
My conclusions...
1) There were slaves, used as mules to get the stones into near position.
2) Skilled workers positioned blocks accurately, these would receive the medical treatment and better accomodations.
3) Managers... All factories have them, why wouldn't the "advanced" Eygptians... Of course managers and overseers would be taken care of.
Better food was used for feeding the skilled and managers, and used as a reward for top performing slaves...
Tournament Management Online &
Because they now need to explore the opposite shaft (which has never been fully explored) to get the red key and then return to the orginal shaft and open the second door.
And inevitabley... 6) ??? 7) Profit!
<fnord>OBEY</fnord>
The Egyptians had it right... using the pyramids to secretly and safely store all their MP3 collections.
They had done several run-through tasks previous, like the drilling thing so they knew the step was there. So all they had to do was say "coming up: a step!"
Ground-penetrating radar?
they find a priceless gold sarcophagus of unimaginable scientific value - how the f*ck do they intend to get it out?
>A bit of history here...Rudolph Gantenbrink
:
>and his team discovered the door some years
>ago. Zahi responded by rushing them out of
>the country and making sure that they
>wouldn't be able to come back.
This is actually a VERY misleading statement. Gantenbrink, by way of Robert Bauval, let the word out on the findings of the 'door', whereas it is standard procedure for *everyone* who is doing research there to go thru the Council of Antiquities FIRST.
That Bauval was associated somehow with it is probably what tipped the balance (for fairness, you can read Bauval's account of the events in Secret Chamber by RB, chapter 9 I believe). The combination of having an "alternative" historian (that means one who cherry picks his 'evidences') together with the the breaking of the rules relating to announcement of discoveries is a big no no for egyptology, simply because these things get out of control, in terms of wild and completely unfounded speculation, REALLY quickly.
Many might not realize this, but there is a huge *industry* revolving around the "mysteries" of ancient egypt, where authors who know very little of (or chose to ignore) the HUGE coherent picture that egyptology is, ignoring montains of evidence supporting it and countless others that go against their own "brilliant" speculation, end up transforming a culture into a "legacy", heavily hinting at mythical places such as Atlantis (a spurious story already of which ONLY plato talks about, and in terms heavily metaphorical), and often sliping into concepts like "noble or higher race" and the like.
The world of "alternative egyptology" is fascinating at first glance, but is roten from the inside, trust me on this.
Another point is that the "door" hardly is a door, as it is located in a shaft that is 8x8 inches, unless someone has a book to write about little beings using this shaft as a corridor for their daily affairs (I suspect this would easily be linked to our alledged martian legacy in a sleight of hand). The two "handles" could be many things, but even if they are handle, that doesn't make the thing a door, it just makes it a plug, with handles.
The third thing i'd like to mention is the latent hatred of that "alternative research" community toward people like Zahi Hawass, who has, despite these people crave to dig everywhere, been dedicated to protecting and researching the Giza site for many decades. Granted Zahi has a big mouth, granted he doesn't know how to talk to journalists, but his dedication and honnesty are obvious to anybody who looks into the field (and no, reading Graham Hancock's 'work' does not qualify). Mark Lehner is in a somewhat similar yet different position, since as an ex-Cayce believer, he began his career with the goal of finding things like the "Hall of Records" (his academic training was financed by ARE, the Cayce fundation). Having learned a lot since his debuts, and having grown up, he is now bashed by his old buddies for being honnest. (don't you find it strange for instance that RB's "orion correlation theory" used to 'lock' giza to 10500BC, just as Cayce 'predicted' ? Thorough examination shows there is no such lock to such an epoch to be found, and the OCT has now been reduced to a "astetically pleasing representation" that lacks any form of precision, and hence any predictive power, rendering 10.5kBC completely and utterly arbitrary)
The way I see it, "alternadoxy" is jumping to the gun on this, let's just wait and see what they find, if they indeed find anything, because whatever is or isn't there, it'll be one hell of a special.
The alledged hijacking of Rudolf Gantenbrink's work is a straw man, Gantenbrink is refered to in all the papers you will find in academia relating to the exploration of the shafts. The nature of research dictates that one researcher follows another on a site, research is not for personal glory, it's about uncovering the truth. That Gantenbrink isn't always mentioned in the press is not the big deal that "alternadoxy" makes of it, after all, Dyxon isn't either and probed the shafts many decades before Gantenbrink (in his probings, he did find that the southern queen's chamber shaft seemed to be blocked at the height we know of today as the location of the plug). Also Gantenbrink has been associated with this special, if only in providing his experience to the i-robot team.
As for "why so long?", well the pyramids aren't going anywhere, these things always take time, specifically because we do NOT want to rush in. I think the REAL question to ask is
Why NOW ?
Well, think about it, it'll probably boost egyptian tourism by solving a mini-mystery. That tourism took a big blow after 9/11.
Now THAT qualifies as very good reason to be doing this now rather than later.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike, and all blocked by really heavy stone doors.
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
Short answer - RTFA!
Did you even see the show? The "door" is in an 8"x8" square shaft that entends up at about a 45 degree angle. I think the shaft was 200 ft long.
Over months, they built a special robot that chould get to the door, and it tried to move it. They used some kind of sonar to determine that the door was only 3" thick, so they tested out a device to drill a 3" hole in it, so they could insert a small camera and light.
So instead of thinking that you are so clever, maybe you should have watched the show, or at least read the article before going off on some pseudo tirade.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Now we'll have to wait a year for the sequel: Door: The Return.
6) Door #3
On fox, I don't remember his name - but the reporter they had for the tomb/icing-on-the-cake "We will most likely find something one way or another so watch this" seemed like quite the prick. He kept interrupting Hawass - For a few minutes there, i wanted him to lift the cover on that sarcophagus, throw him in, and seal it back up. Then I figured that poor 4,500 year old dude in there would have to remain in eternity with some ignorant westerners white ass decomposing on top of him. Just didn't seem right. But there is a newfound room in the pyramid we could stuff him in. ;)
Osama bin Laden? Jimmy Hoffa? Jim Morrison? Marilyn Monroe? Chandra Levy? Deep Throat? Elvis?
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
They are going to find the outside of the pyramid.
I suspect that these shafts were so they could measure how far from the center the "queens" chamber was. They also may have had been useful for venting the CO from the lights they used.
I suspect that the larger pyramids were built in such a way that there would always by a pyramid when the king kicked the bucket. This would me adding layers over the existing one. If you start with a small one, the lowerest chamber would have be under part of the oldest structure in the early days. Latter the "queens" chamber was would have been the mid point and later the "kings" chamber would have been center point as more layers were put on the outside. If you go with that theory and figure in the likely times of death of a king vs relative power of the king and his ability to build large projects there is a strong correlation.
One theory that keeps showing up is the match to Orions belt of the tops of the pyramids. Why look for a hard solution when the SW corners all line up quite nicely. It would take some very careful analysis to determine if the they were used as
exhaust vents and the current experiments may ruin any chances for that work.
Many people make lots of assumptions about the pyramids from the three big ones at Giza. There are at least 90 others and many of them have many things in common but conflict with many of the new age concepts.
1) You have got to learn that if you want to find out ANYTHING from a FOX special (or any FOX news broadcast) you don't watch it until the LAST 5 minutes. Honestly, I didn't even turn it on until the last 20 and I saw both the opening of the coffin and the camera going into the shaft.
:-)
2) About the British-accent babe... ooooooh yeah.
Karma: NaN
That is simply amazing - You can calculate the position of the stars, Build a massive pyramid from the ground up with preplanned tunnels, Amputate arms, invent beer, yet nobody ever saw a log rolling a hill and thought "Gee, that could be useful!"
Dr Hawass bash the lost civilization folks? Rather harshly too. It was almost...well...too harsh. Like he was being defensive or something. I don't know, maybe that's just his personality
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This entire thing was an exercise in what I would hesitate even to dignify as psuedo science. Egyptology is not science in the first place; not any more than astrology is. But this was even shy of real egyptology.
The entire show consisted of outright lies and wild speculation presented as fact. For example, the statement that 'the people who lived here could not have been slaves because they were 50% male rather than a majority.' Huh? How does that make the slightest bit of sense? The Egyptians took slaves of any gender. I do not happen to think that most of the pyramid labor was slave, but that was hardly a supporting arguement.
The director of anitquities made quite a show of concern for good science and taking proper care of the sites explored. But in the end, he essentially attacked that tomb with a chisel and a crowbar for no apparant reason. All he had to do was place a hydraulic jack under each corner and lift. But he damaged the sarcophagus to look like Indiana Jones and was shocked to find... a skeleton! Inside a grave- imagine! He pretended to read a 'curse' on the side of a tomb, despite the fact that he was tracing the characters in the wrong direction (across 2 seperate lines) and the fact that no inscription resembling a curse has ever been found on an Egyptian tomb. Ever. It was a myth invented before the Rosetta stone was found.
It would have been nice if they had mentioned the fact that not a single set of human remains has ever been found in an Egyptian pyramid. The theory that these were built as literal tombs is yet unproven.
Perhaps they might have incorporated the opinions of geologists, climatologists and other actual scientists in the course of this 'documentary.' But that surely would have ruffled the feathers of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities, which apparantly exists for the purpose of justifying conclusions that were reached 100 years ago by untrained, British treasure seekers.
I also took issue with the computerized recreations of the building of the pyramids. National Geographic completely ignored the fact that 4,000 years ago that area was a very temperate climate. No desert, no sand. A lush, green paradise that looked nothing like it does today. This fact was completely ignored throughout all the reenactments- even those that were clearly staged in the US with caucasian actors. Why go to all that trouble of staging a desert unless you really just don't know a damn thing about ancient Egypt?
The truely embarrasing element of all this is that National Geographic was responsible. I expect better from them. This wasn't even pop science- just a big, fake exercise in tomb raiding and lies for the entertainment value. Cancel my membership, please.
go here for an in-depth look at the work preformed by the man who really discovered the door.
There is no spork.
She's BBC News Commentator Laura Greene.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
the world's first advent calendar.
Remember: don't open that last door before the 24th.
Alex
Heisenberg may have been here
I saw this was on last night and instantly thought -- "I bet it's another Geraldo's vault". Glad to see I didn't miss much...
The fact that it was on Fox was another big tip...
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
No! It's the loo!
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Isn't he the king of live tomb excavating adventures? One bust, two busts, how many busts can we handle? Seriously, archealogy really isn't made for live TV. Save the hype for when something is *found*, not *expected*.
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"This show bugged me because they dole out hard information so sparingly."
Watch TV much? Fox is the *master* of this technique! The whole point is to keep you excited so you see the commercials, period.
"Why make us wait so long to see the CGI tour of the pyramids?"
Do you really not get it? The advertisers believe that a significant number of people will buy a certain product (car?) after seeing it advertised on the show repeatedly. What bothers me is I think they're right.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
The show was live in the US last night, but is only airing tonight on european NGC.
Now I guess there won't be a lot of people watching the show.
You may want to revisit your sources.
a) I don't think anyone thinks the pyramids predated the egyptians (or at least people living in egypt). I've never even read about this hypothesis - ther than from "visiting martian" stories that I can't find any corroborative evidence of.
b) Hardly anyone believes the pyramids were built by slaves anymore. All indications are that the pyramids were built as a team sport by what were essentially an zealous, overfed, understimulated, well-populated civilization that had all of thier resources magically delivered to them every spring.
c) There are glyphs of how they built them. There are also glyphs left behind by the gangs, or teams that competed during construction. What is not documented is the specific "secret sauce" those teams used against one another. And why? Probably because it was a lot tougher to get an IP patent back then. Carving your secret into a wall is probably a bad way to conceal it.
Besides, as Indiana Jones taught us, 8"x8" holes in the wall are normally filled with bugs. And who wants to stick their arms into holes filled with bugs.
Xaotik Designs
> (After we see it's just another wall). "This is a very important discovery, and I am very pleased with what we found".
I bet Siggy Freud would have enjoyed it:
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
What do you think of the robot's findings?
- They're more significant than I expected.
- They're a disappointment.
- They're about what I expected.
- None of the above.
Hmm... I wonder who would vote for #1 there.
And of course the poll sucks since it's missing vital choices:
- Since CowboyNeal already got the loot, who cares?
- I'm blind and deaf, you insensitive clod.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Well, I'm actually glad that I didn't watch it. And how do they know that there is a secret chamber there? Did they use some sort of radar? My guess is that this is just a simple ventalation, looking at the angle and length of the tunnel. :)
But we all know that the holy grail of archealogy is to find somthing ancient that changes the way we look at the world
I don't really understand the wave of "backseat experts" at Slashdot. People study things like the Egyptians their whole lives. It's widely accepted that slavery wasn't used to build the pyramids, it was social engineering on a massive scale. There was employment when the citizens had nothing else to do (during the Nile season of innundation.) Come to /. and read posts like this or the article a few days ago about comptuer voting systems with Michael saying.... "Welllll actually you are wrong, despite this being your area of expertise, if you make it open source it's guaranteed to be perfect." People have studied these things for years. Come here and write some a comment. If it get's modded +5, suddenly you become an expert.
Random is the New Order.
Indiana Jones style or somethink
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Actually, it leads to a chamber like in Being Jon Malkovich but they didn't know because they just send a robot in.
Wrongo. A good deal of cranial and neurosurgery is performed through the sinus cavity rather than through the skull. In particular, if you ever get a pituitary tumor-- heaven forbid-- your surgeon will use a craneofacial approach to excise it. In other words, he'll use a microscope and some specialized tools to pull the tumor out bit by bit through your nose.
Good thing you're not a brain surgeon.
Um.. does the Luxor in Vegas count? (:
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
Because the hyroglyphs on the second door said:
"By breaking this seal you agree to the terms of the license contained herein.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
ROFL. You can't?
Hmm, did you even follow the link to the story on MSNBC? The picture at the top of the article SHOWS the shaft, and the guy inserting the robot into it. Right next to it is a VIDEO that you can click to watch what happens when it inserts the camera into the hole. Or how about the article on the BBC which shows where the shaft is in the pyramid, and more pictures? All I said was RTFA before making smart-ass comments about it. The person I was replying to did not ask an honest question, he asked a smart-ass question and made a bunch of dumb comments. Since you are too lazy to read the article, you are probably too lazy to read the comments, so here they are:
So can someone explain to me why they didn't open the door? I mean seriously. If there is a big secret that nobody knows wouldn't you want to find out immediately? How can you possibly resist opening the door? What kind of idiot finds a new door and doesn't open it? I mean isn't that what video games teach us, open every door as soon as you find it! And don't they have sonar? They should use it to "see" what is behind the door. Whether it's an empty room or a treasure hoarde with a curse I doubt anything bad can come of opening a door. That is I don't believe in the supernatural. I'm sure the archaelogists don't either.
Now, reading it again, does it sound like such an honest question?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Well, because the longer they prolong finding out what's in there, the longer one of the "Big Egyptian Mysteries" will be around for discussing on Discovery channel, TLC, Nat Geo, etc.
If they were simply to go in and look, they'd deprive themselves of lots of ratings, not to mention the wanker from the Supreme Egyptian so-and-so being able to grandstand (The Pyramid Nazi - "No Explorations for YOU!")
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
What were the utility of the two sealed copper handles we saw on the first door? The two copper handles were well centered on the door as viewed from within the shaft. They're clearly not for pulling since they were seen from under. Why a seals since there is another door behind? Maybe the copper handles and the seals were supposed to be seen from the other way around... leading to the Queen's chamber.
:-)
The builders put a great deal of effort on these shafts. They were not added a posteriori, as an after thought. They were part of the original design. But, as far as I remember, no other (previous or later) pyramids present these features (correct me if I am wrong). So if these shafts were necessary for the Egyptian mythology, why are they only in Khufu? If they were not important for the mythology, why putting such an effort on their construction? Maybe there were "sects" within the egyptian mythology - and Khufu's builders were not following the mainstream beliefs. Consider that Khufu's is the only 'suspended' burial chamber discovered; all others were dug below the ground or placed at ground level, with the rest of the pyramid built above them.
There are scientific evidences that there are more hidden chambers within the great pyramid. A team of japanese egyptologists conclude (in this report): For instance, the electromagnetic wave radar exploration system is capable of exploring the internal space and of detecting any foreign material within the stone structure by the abnormal reflections from inside the stonework using radar. Appling this method, fruitful results have so far been obtained, including some unusual radar reactions, which suggest the existence of some inner space at the locations as the north side of the Queen's Chamber within the pyramid, and the south side of the Great Pyramid and the north side of the Great Sphinx. I remember reading that the Japanese team estimated that over 3% of the pyramid is free space. A french team estimated the empty space being around 10%. I am trying to locate the references of these numbers - if you have hints... Anyway, this is a lot more that what we currently discovered.
for now...
If there is a big secret that nobody knows wouldn't you want to find out immediately? How can you possibly resist opening the door? What kind of idiot finds a new door and doesn't open it?
They didn't have a Wizard there to cast a Detect Magic spell, and there was no Thief to check for traps. After enough PCs die a horrible screaming death at the hands a cackling DM, you learn to be more cautious of opening doors willy-nilly.
You must be a Dwarf. You guys always rush into things too quickly. The Cleric can only cast so many Heal Light Wounds, Man! Be more careful.
Software Wars
According to Zahi, I learned a few new things:
1. Not a single slave helped build the pyramids.
2. Using a crowbar to chip into a 4000 year old sarcophogas is just fine, rather than using more delicate means (did you see the huge chunk of the lid flake off as he got a little too excited?).
3. Zahi thinks the rest of the world with theories opposed to his "kind and loving egyptians built the pyramids" are idiots because of a thumbprint on the sarcophogas lid. (!?)
4. Zahi's bone specialist confirms: no slaves here, we have 50% men and 50% women in our findings (as if slavery was something only men had to endure).
5. Robots aren't as snazzy as portrayed in the movies. Most movie robots would have been at least able to MacGuyver their way through the second door.
If it was possible to use sonar like this, caverns of Bora Bora (in Afganistan, the supposed stronghold of mr. Laden et al) would have been piece of cake to take care of. Just map out the cave structure first, then use whatever firepower you need.
But I guess you must be right, all the archeologists, wasting decades, not having any scientific insight into how to study pyramids? :-o
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Amazing as it may seem, but I haven't gotten the feeling that they really have been ruined by tourism. Sure there is some damage, but pyramids are huge objects, and relatively speaking damage is still not all that massive (depend on pyramid I guess; writings probably are the most easily damaged)
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Another door?
Okay.
Fine.
I'll say it.
*sigh*
What's behind door number 2, Johnny?
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
Maybe it would make for a good "Junkyard Wars" episode?
:P
"Today's challenge is to pulverize 2 stone doors inside an ancient Egyptian pyramid. As there will be annoying Egyptian officials whining from nearby, your machine should be loud, and preferably have an optional wood-chipper attachment. You have 10 hours from the sound of the Junkyard Wrecking Ball demolishing the Sphinx!"
If they made a 2 hour special of THAT (say, with a couple of the bigger, beefier teams that prefer brute force competing), I'd watch
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
The NGS TV division has sold its soul to the popular media. It started sometime around that 1980s polar bear special where they coated a cage in seal oil and then put someone inside for the polar bear to ferociously "attack." They're hardly above the level of on-the-cheap Discovery Channel documentaries any more; heck, they're basically doing a re-run of the Geraldo Rivera vault thing, as everyone here seems to recognize.
If Nova had run a special on this same topic, I'd have been making time to see it. Fox's version just makes me wince. Their "news" is uninformed advocacy, even when they don't have a "Sensational Mystery" to uncover. Ack. For science, Nova's the standard. For nature, Nature is easily the best show on. The American Experience is amazingly good for history or biography. NGS doesn't rate any more, they're just cranking out empty filler like this. Too sad.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
er, that's Tora Bora pal. Bora Bora is actually a rather nice island in the South Pacific. Perhaps you are suggesting Bin Laden may be found at Club Med?
"Teachers leave us kids alone
Actually, they opened the second door in the filming of another special already.
Here is an image of the items removed from behind the second door: new Cheops artifacts
-- Terry
Hey. I'll give you a big pile of gold if you'll make a room that's impossible to get into in this pyramid. Say, up a narrow shaft, behind a couple doors. And throw in a trap that will crush a small robot.
Robot?
It's like a cat, but not holy.
Oh. Ok. Sure. Why not?
Maybe the state's highest function is to grind out insoluble problems. (Zelazny, Hall of Mirrors)
Due to lack of funding, and the need to get through the second door, the next robot is going to be a LEGO cart with TNT strapped to it.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
The egyptians always do things by three...
A pyramid consists of huge blocks with cracks and small amount of air between the blocks. Although the pyramids are very well engineered, there will always be small amount of air between two piees of stone. This renders sonar useless below the first layer of stone.
One can measure the depth of the first stone layer with soner (assuming that the outer stones do not have too many cracks), but beyond that, no information wuld be obtained.
Yours Yazeran
Plan: to go to Mars one day with a hammer
Do you really not get it? The advertisers believe that a significant number of people will buy a certain product (car?) after seeing it advertised on the show repeatedly. What bothers me is I think they're right.
They don't necessarily believe there will be a direct link like that. What most advertisers think is that, when you go to buy a product, you'll be more comfortable buying something you've heard of before. If you go to a store, and see a row of effectively-identical cleaners, you'll buy the one whose name sounds familiar.
It's mostly just a way of "helping" people make a meaningless decision.
If I'm going to buy product type X, I'll look at the choices, eliminate those brands I've had bad experiences with, and make what amounts to a random choice among the rest, assuming research into them says they are effectively identical. If I've heard advertising recently concerning one of the remaining selections, that vague "I've heard of that one before" may tilt me towards selecting it. And most consumer goods, up to and including cars, are effectively identical inside a product category.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
But I have still never heard of a compelling scheme of how to move the stones into position. Asuming they were big blocks of rock.
Anyway, many of the later pyramids dissolved into what looks like huge mounds of mud. This makes me think that maybe there may be another explenation-- And then I cam across this. Maybe, just maybe, they were not carved blocks of stone, but rather something like concrete.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Anyone who still believes that every ancient artifact or construction must have been of great religious significance, or due to aliens, or whatever mysterious force, needs to read "Digging the Weans" by Robert Nathan. It's a parody on the archeological mythologies that have developed from the natural human tendency to believe that anything remote in time or distance is automagically beyond human understanding. "Here be dragons."
As to this 8"x8" shaft with two doors... my guess is that it was either an air shaft or a communication shaft (much akin to the speaking tubes used on board large ships, before the advent of modern electronics). Which is just common sense architecture in a project that large. Why go way the hell outside to communicate with your supervisor when you can just shout up the handy tube?? Not to mention that it's kinda hard to work if everyone has breathed all the oxygen out of the air supply already.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
One of the more interesting aspects of the pyramids is that there are NO gaps between the stone "blocks." There is an interesting theory that the stones are actually huge concrete blocks that were cast in place, rather than giant stones that were carved and dragged hundreds of miles.
Did you even look at the video footage? The 8x8 shaft had a "plug" in the end of it, which was 3" thick. They drilled through that plug, inserted an endoscope with a light, and found a _room_ with a door at the end of it, much larger than the 8x8 hole which led up to it. The room appeared to be blank, with only the door at the other end. It was most-certainly not an 8x8 "door" that they found. The hole they drilled is equivalent to drilling a hole in a shoebox from the outside, and looking inside it from that hole.
A more reasonable (if less "interesting") theory is that after the rough surfaces of two stones were abutted, the gap was sawn/planed with a metal tool to smooth the surfaces between them, and then they were shoved the last 1/4 inch or so together. The fact that saw-grooves from such a process can be found on stones underlying the joints is an additional niggling detail that isn't really "interesting".
-- Alastair
You're confusing the two shafts. The "door" is at the top of the south shaft. The north shaft has a length of wood at the 45-degree corner, one end of which was presumably broken off by Wayman Dixon's probing in 1872 (the piece he brought back with the couple of artifacts that are now in the British Museum).
-- Alastair
Next time, they'll need a heavy-duty robot company, like RedZone Robotics, Red Whittaker's spinoff from the CMU Field Robotics Center. They've built robots to work on damaged nuclear reactors and to do asbestos removal, and some of their their robots have cut through walls.
(It's a bit sad to look at the CMU Field Robotics Center website today. They're mostly doing NASA work, which is the kiss of death for a robotics project. Very little of what NASA does in robotics ever gets used, let alone flies on a mission. None of it gets built in quantity. The output of a NASA project is usually just a press release.)
> East
You open this door, and there is a long passageway to another door. A NASTY DWARF THROWS AN AXE AT YOU!
> OPEN DOOR
You open the door, and there is a black sceptre and a bird cage on the floor. "XYZZY" is written on the door.
> XYZZY
You are in a well house.....
[Connection closed by foreign host]
And beware of the Revenants. :)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
What we need here is a minature tunnel boring machine .
Other respondents here have suggested digging through to the hidden chamber from outside. With a minature tunnel boring machine Archeologist could bore through to the mystery chamber without marring the appearance of the pyramids outside or any of the passages.
What? That would cost a mint! Well maybe, but afterwards it could be used to lay cable under the streets of congested city centers. We discussed the pneumatic tubes being recycled into internet conduit a little while ago.
How about Jimmy Hoffa? Of course everyone really knows that he was taken up by the aliens that deposited him on Earth in the first place.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Another good archaeology parody book to check out is "Motel of the Mysteries" by David Macaulay. It's a good read, about an amateur archaeologist (Howard Carson) who falls into a shaft while exploring the ancient country of Usa in 4022. His discoveries at the "Toot-n-C'mon" motel are classic. =)
~ Leilah
You perves are slashdotting NationalGeographic.
I was just there to get directions on how to get away from there.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
I watched the movie a couple of nights ago on DvD. Highly recommended.
All about me
The Queen's chamber is some way below the King's chamber and was obviously constructed first since the pyramid was built from top to bottom (duh). At one point in the program they mentioned how building spaces higher up in pyramids was a fairly recent accomplishment. Prior to that, spaces higher up were impossible, due to the weight of stone outside such chambers collapsing them.
My theory is that the so called Queen's chamber was a fallback (if you'll excuse the pun), in case the higher, King's chamber, were to collapse during construction. Above the King's chamber are several other spaces which are believed to be load bearing gaps to prevent the pyramid falling in on the King's chamber. It seems likely to me that the engineers could not have been 100% sure that the King's chamber would be structurally sound.
I'm making a guess that that is why the Queen's chamber has these shafts; if the King's chamber had collapsed, then these shafts would have been connected to the outside, however, once it became obvious that the King's chamber was sound, work on the Queen's chamber stopped.
Come on, you know it's a steam powered pyramid water pump :-)
Umh, ever thought that there might be some difference between hard solid material like stone, metals, and liquids like water... that just might make this approach unusable?
Actually, sonar works quite well through stone. The problem is that cracks and boundaries between different materials cause a lot of reflection and scattering.
It's _dirt_ that would be a nightmare to send sonar through, but even that would work at low frequencies.
If it was possible to use sonar like this, caverns of Bora Bora (in Afganistan, the supposed stronghold of mr. Laden et al) would have been piece of cake to take care of.
Again, this could easily have been done - it would just have taken more work than was practical.
This kind of technique is used all the time when prospecting for oil. You have a bomb in one place, and a bunch of seismic sensors in others. Set off the bomb, and look for reflections from the kinds of formations that trap oil.
What is this talk of fingerprint(s) on the sarcophagus? Was this a marking, or an impression? One comment seems to indicate that the print was an impression or something - so what was the sarcophagus made from? Clay? Were such things made from clay? I had always thought they were carved from stone?
But if the sarcophagus was stone, why the print? What if it was a concrete substance, rather than "stone"? You could certainly make a print in that...
There is a theory that the Egyptians had the technology and resources (ie, sand, limestone, something from the Red Sea) to make concrete, and the theory would explain how some of the pyramids (esp the Great Pyramid) and temple structures could have been built, even though they are so large - they were simply "poured" into place. At least, that's the theory...
I am trying to figure out why all the doors on the tunnel - what theory fits this, what the tunnel may have been for (I have seen a site that claims the Great Pyramid was a giant water pump - but that doesn't make much sense since it was built when the area had plenty of water and was fertile), those handles on the doors (why?), among other things...
Finally, I do have to wonder about that robot - that is a TON of money for what should be a relatively simple robot - I can understand that the sides of the tunnel were smooth, and at an angle (ie, needs more than a standard robot wheel drive), but quarter of a mil? Right - time to find the person who pocketed the dough...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
why don't they just carefully excavate into it from the outside, instead of going to all the touble of sending these robots in etc...
Let me get this straight. You want to explore one of the wonders of the world, by cutting fucking great holes in it?!
Another approach that might work would be to take an industrial X-ray device and try to map out voids in the building by the equivalent of CAT. Such machines are already used to do non-destructive inspections of buildings looking for failure (though I doubt they try to send an x-ray beam through hundreds of metres of stone).
This would take a while, but would provide a reasonably complete low-resolution map of the pyramid's structure. Sink a few shafts to the side of the pyramid, and you can get the underground structure (if any) too.
.... and the next logical question is....
"What is behind DOOR NUMBER TWO?!?!?"
Okay, that was bad, but it needed said.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
I admit I was skeptical going into watching this. However once it started I immediatly had to begin with some scoffing. First off as has been said MANY TIMES, the "Live" TV was sickning at best.
However it got worse. First they went through explaining that the "Pully and Wheel" had not been invented yet. However The specifically show a CGI series where a LARGE DOOR was closed using none other than a series of PULLIES!
They said that Any Likeness, Statue, etc. was believed to House their spirit after death. Yet they presume these small ducts & Tunnels were used to allow their spirit its release into the afterlife.
Back to the Pully & Wheel problem, I am almost 100% certain that in the past they have uncovered Hyrogliphics that showed the stones being "rolled" by placing round logs at the front and "pulling it" over them replacing the front "Wheel" with the rear one as it was passed.
To Slave or Not To Slave!
Once again almost POSITIVE that many Hyrogliphics have been uncovered showing the guards beating the slaves. Also Slavery is always looked upon now as an EVIL! Many times in past people CHOSE to become a "Bond Servant" dedicating their life to serving another person with that person promising to provide and care for the servant.
Now the Blathering Idiot Dr. Zahi...The dude looked like he Jizzed on himself after seeing what? ANOTHER Blackage!
Razzious Domini
I could be a GREAT KARMA WHORE if I could just shed the few morals I have left.
When they knock down the second door they will find the names of the builders in heiroglyphics.
The shaft, my friends, is the world's oldest easter egg.
Apparently these days, the average roto-rooter truck carries a video camera snake that can go 100+ feet down a pipe and peek at whatever's down there.
---- "If we have to go on with these damned quantum jumps, then I'm sorry that I ever got involved" - Erwin Schrodinger
Robots aren't as snazzy as portrayed in the movies.
I really have a hard time believing that thing cost $250k (or rather, that anyone would have *paid* $250k for it).
First of all, I have, quite seriously, built smaller robots out of *Legos* that could have managed that climb. And they wouldn't have needed a ramp to get over a 2" curb. Hell, I suspect most remote control cars could probably have managed it, with some slight mods.
Second, why did it carry its "brain", as they called it, directly behind it? It had to drag a video and power cable behind it anyway! Even assuming it needed any internal intelligence (for traction, perhaps?), since they basically piloted it by remote control, all the CPU power could have stayed at the *other* end of the wire.
And third, can someone explain to me why drilling a hole in a stone could have *any* chance of compromising the "safety" of the pyramid? At worst they would have cracked a very small stone block. Considering that earlier "archaeologists" used *DYNAMITE* in their work, one small cracked stone would certainly not have brought the entire pyramid crashing down.
Zahi thinks the rest of the world with theories opposed to his "kind and loving egyptians built the pyramids" are idiots because of a thumbprint on the sarcophogas lid
No kidding, eh? Did anyone else get the impression that Hawass only hates those with "alternative" theories on the pyramids in favor of his own *equally* out-there ideas? Built with love? Gimme a break! Even if the workers didn't count as slaves (which didn't mean the same thing back then as it does to us now), they certainly saw such construction as nothing more than a sweet government job, something to do during the flood season when they couldn't grow anything.
I also loved the obvious bias against Gantenbrink. The show actually claimed that only their "new" robot managed to get past the "step" in the tunnel! And, while using a ramp might have made an *excellent* solution from the point of view of simplicity, Gantenbrink solved it with a better robot. Hell, they even claimed that *Hawass* "found" the outlet of the upper tunnels, of which the Northern outlet had never gone missing, and *Gantenbrink* discovered the outlet to the Southern tunnel in his 1992 survey.
Biased, "overcooked", Factually incorrect, "bad" archaology little better than what they accuse their forerunners of, and a somewhat dissapointing "climax". Overall, the show sucked. They could have condensed the entire "interesting" part of the show into 15 minutes (and in fact, they did... the *last* 15 minutes).
They couldn't find anyone named Lara Croft, I take it?
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Yeah. You're right... what was I thinking. I must have drank too much of Bora Bora cider when I was younger (was popular back in my home country a decade ago or so).
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
To fill time they showed a clip, filmed earlier, of Hawiss checking up on an image in one of the earlier pyramids. This one had a warren of underground passages beneath it. It had been closed for decades because it was dangerous. Hawiss kept saying how dangerous it was -- because of the possibility of falling rock...
Okay buddy, they why aren't you wearing a hard hat?
Yes, it was interesting to look around. But it would have been more interesting with less of the Gee-whiz and phony human interest BS.
It's clear what the small shafts are for. You launch a guided missile down them, then steer them into the MatCen switch, shutting off construction of more virus-infected drones.
Sorry, I just finished Descent 3, and suddenly find myself wanting to fly a Pyro-GL through the Great Pyramid's shaftwork.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Did you actually read this? I got about 2.5 pages into his rambling, uneducated guesswork and when I realized he was trying to explain to me how the pyramids were *poured* into place with molds, based on the evidence that explorers found three junk fragments of rock and pottery in a pit.
I'm done. I'd rather read about aliens zapping them in place with antigravity. At least that's interesting fiction. This guy DRONES on and on...
I mean, it's got to hurt being successfully invaded by the French.
Probably about as much as it was in England.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I was just beeing sarcastic :)
Anyway.. I've never actually been to the pyramids myself, but I've heard that they are fscked up on the outside because tourists all take home a piece of it. If you look at pictures of them, it looks as if a giant bird has been nibbling away at them. They look better as you get to the top, probably because the lazy tourists don't wanna go all the way to the top.