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Competitors Cry Foul At Windows XP, 2K Service Packs
caudron writes "According to an article at ZDNet, a trade group partly funded, not surprisingly, by Microsoft's competitors is claiming that WinXP SP1 and Win2k SP3 contain 6 separate violations of both the letter and spirit of the proposed DOJ Settlement. Equally unsurprising, Microsoft disagrees with them. And so the Case-That-Wouldn't-Die drags ever onward."
But it's not a settlement yet - Microsoft cannot be held accountable for violating rules that don't yet exist.
Cheers,
Ian
*GASP* have i lost more respect for my favorite company? forgive the typical slashdot esque microsoft bashing, but people, if you're surprised.... pull your head out of your ass.
"Martha Stewart can lick my Scrotum......do i have a scrotum?" -- Sharon Osbourne
How long do you think this case will last? Honestly, I think that the longer it takes the more solid a position Microsoft is going to wedge itself into, until it's all but impossible to dig them out.
In a world where technology advances at the rate that it does today, drawn out court cases make decisions far after the point at which the subject of the decision is obsolete.
The Register covered it this morning, here.
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
The Registers article gives a bit more information, including links to the ProComp PDF document about the issues (ProComp being the "Sun/Oracle lobby group")
I got sick of these type of accusations.
Microsoft has just released the second service pack for Windows XP, and it contains fixes for all the complaints. In effort to address problems about security andstability, the new service pack also installs the Linux kernel in place of the NT kernel. To allow users fix other problems themself, all Windows source code will be placed in C:\Windows\Source Code
...partly funded, not surprisingly, by Microsoft's competitors...
Partly funded? Hardly. This is nothing more than Microsoft's competitors. Even the travel agencies are competitors (Expedia anyone?).
I found this charge to be very interesting:
The .Net runtime does not even come included with Windows XP and Windows 2000. Why would they need to include an option to disable the .Net runtime, if it's required that the user of the OS to have downloaded and installed it?
Forget the whales - save the babies.
Microsoft have spent the last decade
seeding the world with their systems
and they are now locking the doors.
Did you never wonder why it was so easy
to get copies of Windows on CD-ROM?
We have gotten used to needing Service Packs
in order to get working software
and 95% of users will download whatever SP
Microsoft says they must.
Bait with version X, SP installs version Y.
What if the DoJ rules it's illegal?
Ask 50m users to de-install?
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
"Service Pack 1 for Windows XP itself is not readily accessible to consumers, and thus the mechanism purportedly settling the antitrust case is, by definition, not readily accessible," ProComp wrote in the letter.
Whilst the point about non-IE browsers not being able to access the site is valid, the fact it takes 5.5 hours over a modem is not. It's not Microsofts fault people are using a 56k modem or that it's not under 50k! I'm unsure about the $9.99 for a CD point myself - the proposed settlement didn't mention anything about them having to forcibly give it to anyone and this price is no different to their usual practises.
The third violation, ProComp charges, is that the middleware control is not intuitive and comes with no Help file for understanding how to use it.
So? It does what it's supposed to do. Do you really think they're going to spend money on making it all nice and pretty when end users aren't going to even touch it? They provided the tool and it does the job it says it does - so what if there is no help file?
In the fifth alleged violation, ProComp said the updated Windows XP's My Music folder called up Internet Explorer for online shopping, even after the group had selected Netscape as the default browser and had hidden access to IE.
Call me skeptical, but this could just be an oversight. We all know that Microsofts testing is, ahem, a little erratic. It might not be though, but lets not jump to conclusions.
It is still worth pointing out that this is a proposed settlement. Microsoft haven't actually signed anything yet.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
...ok I am as anti MS as the next guy in most cases, but these allegations are just plain whining...
.NET is a set of runtimes, you can't diable it, anything they is compiled with VS.NET will not work if you diabled it, and in the near future of new product releases thats going to be nearly every windows application and game....
First of all the control does just what it should and hides(I don't remember a situlation to disable) those componets...
Second its meant for OEM's to use not really the end user...(Again was the spirt of the request, for OEM s to do the hiding)
Third, when using MS componets they usually need other componets its unfair for this to be changed...However I think MS should be forced to open the APIs to have others products fill those roles...
Finally
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I'd prefer it if they were to "Cry 'Havoc'! and let slip the dogs of war"
They're complaining that it's not easy to find the program in XP? It's at the top of the Program Start Menu AND in the Control Panel.
IMHO it should only be in the Control Panel, as it's not something you're likely to need on a daily basis.
As for the desktop, heck, XP didn't even come with IE on the desktop. Why should control panel programs start showing up there?
Then I think Solaris shouldn't ship with Java and Linux shouldn't ship with glibc.
First, they claim that it's hard to get. Jesus Christ, it's in a service pack. That's how MS has *ALWAYS* distributed their software. Now, with automatic update, it'll even come over automatically. And the whole download doesn't have to be done in one sitting either.
Secondly, it doesn't provide Start Menu access? Well, I'm looking at a big icon for it right now, not even in the "Programs" section. They must have blind software testers working for them.
Thirdly, they claim that it's hard to use. I understand usability. Really, I do. But THIS being hard to use? A fucking 10 year old could use it.
This "ProComp" group, whoever they are, certainly are fucking clueless. ZDNet even reporting this garbage is really, really irresponsible. Crackpots send letters to the gov't all of the time. Even worse, this isn't just some random crackpot, this is a fake group created by some of MS competitors.
This article is complete garbage.
No user should be without the handy-dandy Linux boot disk for Administrator Password recovery: http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd
Sig? What's a Sig?
The group's allegation regarding a sixth violation rapped Microsoft for failing to include in the middleware control an option to disable Microsoft's .Net Framework Common Language Runtime, an alternative to Sun's Java Virtual Machine.
ka-BOOOOM!! There's goes the group's credibility (if they ever had any). First of all, .NET is NOT an alternative to Sun's JVM. .NET is an application environment, period. It's a different product. Second, what the hell does .NET have to do with ANY of these issues? Answer: Nothing.
Yes, clearly there should be options to disable the standard Windows GUI APIs as well.
Sun is so f'ing stupid. Everytime they try and pull bullshit like this, they just increase the sympathy for Microsoft. I can't wait until Sun goes under and that smirk is finally wiped off McNealy's face.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
If *you* can do *your* work *without* Microsoft Windows, then none of this stupidity about their service packs, EULAs, etc, etc, needs to bother you.
On the other hand, if Microsoft continues to expand its monopolies into new parts of the computer industry, that may jeopardize *my* ability to do *my* work *without* Microsoft Windows. For instance, if the CBDTPA (or whatever Hollings is calling it this week) passes, requiring all computers to have a digital restrictions management operating system (which, incidentally, M$ has a patent on), M$ will have a federally sponsored monopoly on computer operating systems. Moving out of the United States has its own drawbacks.
Will I retire or break 10K?
That's funny I don't recall Solaris including a version of the .NET runtime.
I am sure M$ will do whatever they can to make this obscure, but the features added are being added more for the OEM's than for the home user.
Hopefully this will make the UN wise up to the fact that Iraq will find a way around anything.
Best Slashdot Co
So erm, weren't you upset about not being able to use three of those four CPUs in OpenBSD, being as it doesn't yet support SMP, except in an under-development CVS branch?
Congrats, enjoy being a Father. I know I will when the time comes ;). ( i'm assuming your'e serious (btw, why are you here and not with the new mother?! ))
Hate implies ignorance. Most of the people and companies (not to mention consumer groups, state legislatures, etc.) complaining about Microsoft's predatory and illegal business practices are VERY well informed as to the legality of Microsoft's actions and the degree to which these actions affect the public.
I'd say this is just another case of the chickens coming home to roost, and not a blind case of bashing.
-- lk t lv ll th vwls t f wrds. T svs lts f tm t wrt bt ts pn n th ss t rd nd mks m lk lk cmplt dpsht.
Then they say that there should be an option to disable the .NET common language runtime because it is a competitor to Java? Just because they are competitors doesn't mean that they are compatible. Java won't step in and run your .net applications. Disabling .net CLR would just mean that your .net applications would all fail.
How'd this get modded up to +3 Interesting?!? YHBT!
microsoft will just defend their actions saying it is "vital to the core operation of
the operating system" or some such nonsense.
So, strong local security is a problem how?
I have seen this before and I would like to know why anyone would run openbsd on a quad processor when even the current release 3.1 does NOT support SMP. I am a big fan of BSD and have a puffer fish hanging from my desk but for god's sake make but a better story !!!
projects @ http://spectechnologies.net
You know, even though I'm avidly pro-Linux in server situations, I can see through this one. You're pretty creative, brother.
Your post was made especially funny by the fact that SÉVICE as you wrote it is a French word that the HarperCollins dictionary translates as (physical) cruelty, ill treatment .
Sounds about right...
...My impression of the Service Pack's "Set Program Access and Defaults" was that it offered an easy, centralized way for users to make MS products their defaults. Your choices for each item (Browser, email, ect) are something like
... A single place to change to ALL MS. The "Non MS" button would only work if you have 3rd party programs already installed, right? So if you choose it and things get fucked-up, you'd probably want to revert to "MS." The "Custom" option is the Advanced one, and it includes a check box "Enable Access to this Program " which seems to mean that even though you're disabling IE, you have to take an additional, criptic step to really disable it.
Use Internet Explorer
or
Use Your Current 3rd Party browser
The easy, inviting option is the MS ones. The use of "Your Current 3rd Party Brower" instead of "Mozilla" or "Opera" or whatever is detected, lends an air of complexity. The 3rd Party choices aren't laid out, but the MS choice always is.
But before you can choose your specific programs, you need to first choose whether you want to use "MS Windows" "Non MS" or "Custom"
Compared to the process of, say, the "File Types" config, where you choose a program for any file-type, this interface privilages the MS products. But of course, setting a File Type no longer means that a certain program becomes the default...
Microsoft for YEARS now has made a habit of misleading business practices and ignoring the concerns of consumers (and even industry groups). They're forced competitors out of the market, they try to make everyone adapt to their standards, and we're supposed to be SURPRISED that they're already violating the proposed settlement???
Reality time folks: either it's going to take a forcible settlement that makes MS a non-issue or we're going to just have to learn to live with them as they already are. They have way too many people who do nothing but sit around to find loopholes. Then they have a large number of marketing/PR types that make using those loopholes look like desireable features (or at least like they weren't INTENTIONAL slights of law or agreements...).
Not to mention that XP Professional only supports two processors.
But THIS being hard to use? A fucking 10 year old could use it.
Usually, the ten-year-olds are the only ones in the family who can use it.
I was helping a friend configure his new e-to-e router with cable modem on his lan running 2000 advanced server on the server and XP Pro on all the WS. After SP/driver upgrade XP would not see the domain and I could not ping the WS from the server!! after a bit of fumbling I realized that I had to disable the MS personal firewall before the XP box would connect to it's own local server.. MS has shit for brains !!!
projects @ http://spectechnologies.net
Yow ! That would've been a fantastic time to perform a test of the halon gas fire suppression system.
I'm crying foul too. My warez copy won't install the service pack. Note to Microsoft lawyers: this is a joke. I run Linux.
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
"As a last minute attempt at corporate sabotage, he decided to change all of the Computer Administrator passwords on a few of the XP Professional boxes sitting around in the server room.
[...]
It is strictly because of Microsoft's poor implementation of a multi-user computing environment that our company lost three days of productivity."
Let me get this straight... One of your employees gets canned, the rest of your IT team is too incompetent to change the administrator passwords and revoke privledges for said employee before giving them the news... (You guys do realize employees quite often go off the deep end when being let go) And you blame MS for "poor implementation of a multi-user computing environment" rather than blaming your company's IT team for lack of pre-planning...
Please... Excuse me for defending Microsoft, but you've also just realized how secure Windows NT/2k/XP are locally, tho they're full of exploits remotely.
It's because of your own company's poor judgement, and questionable security policies concerning administrator passwords (not to mention getting new systems, NOT recieving admin passwords from Dell at that time, and NOT contacting them immediately) that lost you 3 days of productivity, not because of MS.
I couldn't resist.
But complaining about download times? Christ, that's low.
The service pack is large. Live with it. It's no different than downloading 20-30 megs of RPMs for a system-wide update.
I strongly dislike M$ practices, but I find that these accusations are nitpicking that makes these "ProComp" people look like whiners. Throughout this case people have focused on the smaller aspects of the case (The stupid browser war) while barely touching on more major aspects (The M$ tax on PCs even if I don't *WANT* Windows on them.)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
This is without any service pack installed.
This is the case that doesn't end, :)
Yes it goes on and on, my friends.
The Guv'ment litigated us not knowing what they've done,
And they'll tie us up in court forever just becauseThis is the case that doesn't end,
Yes it goes on and on, my friends.
The Guv'ment litigated us not knowing what they've done,
And they'll tie us up in court forever just because...
(repeat ad-nauseous)
The tool that Microsoft are distributing is very similar to what OS X includes, where you can choose your default browser, email client etc from a menu. It doesn't pick up every possible option automatically either (I imagine those apps have to register themselves with the system to say they are web browsers). It's hardly a big deal. I thought it was pretty straightforward too, so they're really just moaning for the sake of moaning.
Frankly I just wish these companies would just stop bitching all the time and just produce something better for us all to use. If they spent half as much time and effort on revolutionising computer software and hardware as they did writing reports to get at MS, I figure I'd be coding Perl by telekinesis by now.
There is no server version of XP yet (AFAIK, outside of beta). Microsoft actually reccomended that you take out multi-user servers and replace them with their 10-tcp-connection-limit desktop operating system? Is this some sort of cruel joke?
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Would some Al Qaeda guys do us all a favor and blow up Microsoft?
McDonalds' employee: Welcome to McDonalds, may I take your order you please?
Bill Gates: A big mac please.
McDonalds' employee: A big mac, a coke. $2.99.
Bill Gates: Sorry, I ordered just a big mac.
McDonalds' employee: The coke is part of the meal.
Bill Gates: I don't want the coke, just the Big Mac please.
McDonalds' employee: The coke is free and is part of the meal.
Bill Gates: Until recently the Big Mac was priced at $1.99?
McDonalds' employee: But now the Big Mac has new features. It is bundled with a coke.
Bill Gates: But I already have something to drink so I don't want the coke.
McDonalds' employee: Then you won't get a Big Mac.
Bill Gates: I will take just the Big Mac and pay $1.99, ok?
McDonalds' employee: You can't separate the parts of the meal. They are seamlessly integrated and it would destroy the Big Mac if we seperated them.
Why does Microsoft need a separate control panel to do the same thing? Why can't they just put shortcuts (aliases/soft links) to the programs on the desktop so you can just delete them?
Also, it's too bad they can't make the fix smaller than 30,000,000 bytes, too ... I thought all those DLL's allowed you to not rewrite the whole OS every time you wanted to put up a couple radio buttons, but I guess not.
--- Jason Olshefsky
Karma: Poser (mostly affected by adding this line long after everyone else did)
"We had a whole beta process for Service Pack 1 where we sought and received feedback from industry and government," said Microsoft spokesman Jim Desler. "It's unfortunate, by hardly surprising, that this group, which is backed by our competitors, chose to play politics rather than participate in the process."
Why weren't they involved in the beta process...?
A modern day witchhunt.
You mixed up your facist dictators... An honest mistake. You should have previewed first!
Aside from this... most of Procomp's complaints are complete and utter BS. They whine that Microsoft wants to charge you 10 bucks to get the service pack on the CD, yet they also want to whine about how long it takes to download the minimum install of 30 megs. Then they complain that Microsoft may potentially make tens of millions of dollars on the CD distribution yet neglect to mention that you can legally download it from their own site for FREE.
Nor do they mention how Apple or other MS competitors dont even allow you to download larger OS/APplication updates for free and require that you purchase a CD (for clarification Im reffering to OS 10.1 not 10.2). They also continue to whine about how links to the Middleware control panel are not included on the Start Menu and Desktop. This is beyond stupid. Control panels BELONG IN THE DAMN CONTROL PANEL!
I can't believe the lusers editing
Oh well whatever. Im guessing we will soon see an article lamenting RedHat's decision to make Mozilla the default browser in their upcoming Redhat 8.0 release. Yeah Redhat does linux but since they actually have a head on their shoulders and actually want to make money instead of going out of business - we are supposed to hate them right?
So so so stupid...
J
I love idealists not because I am one, but because they make life bearable for pragmatists such as myself.
I was all set to make my points about Microsoft probably not being as crafty as they are lazy or incompetent, but it seems that others here have made similar points and so I don't need to. However, I think it should be pointed out that if these ProComp guys are as stangely uptight as they seem to be then Microsoft should take a few pages from an older school of business. Bring these guys across the border to Vancouver, where they can be entertained by the beautiful and naked women at Brandi's and then simply walk downstairs to the "Swedish Touch" where they can get "relaxers." They SO need them.
don't tell me that ms tried to release a update to windows that patches many problems and lets programs opt-in to a system that lets it become the default program while hiding the MS programs, ohh no how dare they! next thing you'll know people will start to think that MS cares about the products they sale.
get real people, if this was redhat or debian releasing a SP everyone would be talking about how great they are for updating the os. It would be nice if they did that way when you do a fresh install you only have to run one rmp or deb to update the system, instead of trying to decide what updates you want from hundreds of choices.
as for the size of the update its because it contains all the security updates for every version of XP, if you goto windows update of course its a smaller download, chances are you already downloaded many of the updates already, not to mention you don't end up downloading the stuff for IIS if you don't have it installed or things for XP pro if you only have home.
Just look at this statement Gates made during an interview:
[discussing their partnership w/ IBM for OS/2 development] "I mean we had thought that IBM with their corporate presence could really jam it on people and get people to use it. "
Notice the phrasing: "jam it on people and get people to use it" - if lapses like that from the top don't put the STFU on Msft apologist crying that they got their dominance from free market choice of consumers I don't know what will.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Sun as in java.sun.com are one of the members of the group.
.NET with its VM and bid for the enterprise not being a competitor to Java with its VM and establishment in the enterprise. Same as saying Linux isn't a competitor to Windows.
And as to
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
And that Windows Xp doesn't have a server package yet...
If the local administrator password were changed, you could log on as the network administrator without issue.
That what was all this school was for... to teach us how to solve our own problems. -- janeowit
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Actually this case has been stone dead for a long time, ever since the US administration decided that MS should not be punished. The dance-of-the-zombies that we're watching has nothing do to with a real court case. They're just killing time (and making money).
> "ProComp said Microsoft's second violation is that Service Pack 1 neglects to provide Start Menu access to the middleware control, and doesn't include a short-cut icon to the control on the desktop"
Umm, for at least the W2k SP3, the link is on my start menu, right above the windows update link.
It 'resides' in the add/remove programs applet. Makes sense to me.
BTW, I don't want anything else on my desktop, assholes. A link to install/configure netscape would please me about as a much as a link to a free trial version of AOL.
>"Everything about 'Set Program Access and Defaults' says consumers are unwelcome here," the developer said. "It's a barren place, compared to the rest of Windows XP, bereft of simple instructions or extended Help"
What the hell? Have they seen it? It couldn't be simpler! Click the option button next to the one you want. Jeezuz.
> ProComp noted that the time for retrieval, as stated by Microsoft, would be 1.25 hours over a standard dial-up connection
And it'd be 2 hours if they had to include a 10 meg instuctional video on how to fuck^h^h^h fix up your system with netscape. The fact is you can get it.
They also claim you need internet explorer to download it. Not true (well partially, for the 'dynamic' version you may) I downloaded the networked install (100 meg or so) with lynx.
> the Windows 2000 version "is substantially less intuitive than (the one) in Windows XP."
Windows 2000 is an office/pro OS, designed to be administrated by tech-savvy people. Windows XP is for your grandma to check her e-mail and cat breeding websites. No duh it's less intuitive. Do they want the dancing paperclip to help them click the option buttons?
I mean MS could have been real jerks here. They could have made the options read "1) Kick ass Internet Explorer - 2) Slow ass piece of incompatible shit from the retards at Netscape"
I'm not in favor of any MS monopoly, but these whiney special interest groups spend more time dictating how I should use my computer than MS does.
All Sun & Netscape seem to do is sue people to create an environment for their software. If they paid the coders half what they pay their lawyers, they'd have nothing to bitch about.
I lose respect for groups who don't know enough to shut up when they've won.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
SP1 for XP does NOT install .NET services. I know, we just rolled it out two days ago after some fairly exhaustive tests.
InThane
Service Pack 1 for Windows XP itself is not readily accessible to consumers, and thus the mechanism purportedly settling the antitrust case is, by definition, not readily accessible, ProComp wrote in the letter.
.Net Framework Common Language Runtime, an alternative to Sun's Java Virtual
.Net technology to carry them well into this decade and into the next. I'm sure MS will fire off a few of their own comments to the court in defense of .Net. Too much money and too much time has gone into this and I don't see Bill backing off.
Consumers have three choices for obtaining the service pack. The first is to use Windows XP's Automatic Update feature to retrieve and install a 30MB file. ProComp noted that the time for retrieval, as stated by Microsoft, would be 1.25 hours over a standard dial-up connection.
Honestly, if you're still using dial-up, then you should expect longer download times. And Microsoft does offer a CD ROM; granted $9.95 does seem a bit high for S&H.
The third violation, ProComp charges, is that the middleware control is not intuitive and comes with no Help file for understanding how to use it.
As a Technical Writer myself this does bother me, but honestly it isn't something with which I would walk into Federal Court.
The fourth violation alleged by ProComp shifts to Windows 2000, which, with the release of Service Pack 3, was updated with a leaner version of the middleware control.
In the letter, ProComp emphasized that the middleware controls installed with the two service packs are substantially different. The trade group contended that the Windows 2000 version is substantially less intuitive than (the one) in Windows XP.
So, the service packs are different for different Operating Systems? That seems fair. I think between this complaint and number 2, Microsoft is guilty of not putting their creative power behind the middleware control.
In the fifth alleged violation, ProComp said the updated Windows XP's My Music folder called up Internet Explorer for online shopping, even after the group had selected Netscape as the default browser and had hidden access to IE.
Now, I am beginning to understand why ProComp included the previous not-so-important violations: To show a trend. If the above is true it is bad for Microsoft. I'm sure MS will try and explain it away as some kind of oversight or better yet a "feature" of XP to improve the user's experience. Better to just release a quick "fix" and remove this "feature" quickly.
The group's allegation regarding a sixth violation rapped Microsoft for failing to include in the middleware control an option to disable Microsoft's
Machine.
I smell a fight here. Microsoft is betting on the
Honestly, the first 4 "violations" are pretty weak. However, when grouped with the 5th there is evidence of a "trend" on the part of Microsoft to not act in good faith.
What will be the outcome? I don't really believe the Justice Department wants to re-open this case, especially with all of the juicy "terrorist" cases just waiting to be tried. And let's be honest, case against Microsoft is not going to get a federal prosecutor TV time, but case against terrorists will get a federal prosecutor a lot of TV face time.
If there were such an article, if would probably be because Bill sneezed in the fact of a linux exec...
But right now he's not sneezing, he's laughing, at anyone stupid enough to open up an MS only shop, or to agree to MS's insane EULA's.
However I wanted him not to have trouble with the security issues that often come with Internet Explorer (particulary the one that ships with W2k). So I though I'd install Mozilla and disable IE5 with the service pack 3. This is what I did, I also installed the IE skin for mozilla so that they wouldn't be too disorientated. (I downloaded all this on my own DSL line and burned it to CD so that I didn't have to use his puny 56K modem). Now comes the problem: normally users are used to start "the internet" by starting Internet Explorer. If I tried the same with Mozilla, but it just says "website not found" (the page marked as homepage), instead of starting the connection. Now how do you expect Mozilla to be usable when a normal user has to start the connection himself if years and years the computer took care of that.
That's why I re-enabled IE5 as default browser, and told them to start the internet that way and I also told them that I installed an alternate browser that is in my opinion superior. Of course I know they are never going to use it.
Is this a problem with Mozilla? I don't know... Perhaps I just had to check an option in Mozilla, but I didn't find it. I do not accuse Microsoft of anything, but I felt a bit disappointed in SP3 because of this issue. (Note that I also disabled Outlook and installed Eudora instead, but I know Eudora connects when not connected)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The group's allegation regarding a sixth violation rapped Microsoft for failing to include in the middleware control an option to disable Microsoft's
Most of these issues are rather nitpicky and pointless. The only thing that's going to put microsoft in check is to eliminate the rules they attach to OEM versions of their software. Having the ability to received a Dell pre-installed to dual-boot windows and linux would be a big improvement.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
It's not a settlement, it's a proposed settlement, so any action they've chosen to take or not take has exactly nothing to do with whether they can be expected to play by the rules from this point on out.
The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.
Well since the "subject" is MS abusing it's monopoly position, and the above story indicates that that hasn't changed over time. Then the only question should be "will any decision be sifficient to change that condition?". So the "subject of the decision" hasn't changed, but only how strong the action needed to bring back balance will need to be?. IMO, the "downfall" of MS will not rest solely on just the decision of the court case, but several factors.
. html]
1-The state of the economy.
2-The ill will generated by MS behavior.
3-The OSS movement and the pressure being brought to bear, local & international.
4-The house of MS is not as firm as people believe.[http://www.billparish.com/msftfraudfacts
5-Legal pressure not only from the US but abroad.
6-The fickle nature of people & the loss of confidence in MS.
7-The deviation from core competency (X-box)
(* The rest of the partition that this MS Word document is located on has been formated! *)
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
Try changing from XP normal view to Classic after you have "remove" IE,
Voila it back on your desktop.
Help fight continental drift.
Whilst the point about non-IE browsers not being able to access the site is valid, the fact it takes 5.5 hours over a modem is not.
There's no reason that I'm aware of that Microsoft couldn't have released this little tool as a seperate application. Then people could download that small piece and not worry about the entire huge service pack.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This is the case that never ends
It goes on and on my friend
Some people said Microsoft did it not knowing what it was
And they'll go on doing it just because
We have a Dell Poweredge 2450 server including RAID 5 disks, running Win2K & SQL Server. We discovered mysterious anomolies (Control Panel not working and some other wacky stuff). Microsoft support recommends a full restore from tape. OK, we have tapes, let's go. We attempt to boot from CD and we know we need to supply a driver disk for the RAID card. Each time we attempt to boot, things look okay for a while and then BAM! cryptic register dump -- game over. This goes on for THREE DAYS of fumbing & bumbling. My sysadmin is a very knowledgable MCSE, not some newbie who uses the CD-ROM as a cupholder. Microsoft support was puzzled, so was Dell. Eventually, the Dell folks determine that we were given the wrong driver disk for our Dell RAID controller. Evidently our RAID controller had newer firmware than our driver disk (not that Win2K told us anything useful at boot time to suggest this). We download a new driver, and the restore eventually works. This series of events started out as a standard Microsoft response (reinstall the OS) to a standard Microsoft problem (anomolies with no useful clues in the event log). Dell gets some of the blame, but we expect the OS to either boot up or tell us why not.
By the time we had this little crisis under control, I gave the server in question the nickname "Atta" and wrote it on the paper label we stick on the server that shows name & IP address.
In my shop we have Microsoft and Linux boxes running side by side. I am the IT manager, so if some Microsoft salesman wants to talk about how their products can improve our uptime and reduce support costs, they will first have to listen to the story of how one of their products motivated us to name a Microsoft server after a middle east terrorist. Then they will have to explain how our costs will decline by paying for licenses/support/upgrades, and how our uptime will improve as we respond to mysterious anomolies by doing full restores on servers that can't even boot properly from CD/floppy.
Years ago, I worked at a DEC shop. Everything was damn expensive, but it was rock-solid. When things didn't work, we saw messages and error log entries that provided clues. DEC had tech. support that would investigate any crash dump and determine what happened. All of this was very pricey, and DEC got slaughtered by commoditized x86 hardware and Microsoft software. Sure, today's Wintel servers are cheaper and faster, but stability, recoverability, and support are worse now than 20 yrs. ago.
If someone shoots you in the foot, it doesn't always work to just quietly limp away -- even if they've done it half a dozen times before and you've got an injunction against them for it. If nothing else, it's good to make sure that other people know that, despite their claims, they haven't reformed their ways.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Frankly, I can't believe you got so many to bite. Has the level of trolling fallen so far that people are no longer able to recognize them on sight?
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Although Microsoft released the technology long after signing the proposed settlement, the Common Language Runtime meets the standard set by the agreement for determining what future middleware products would be covered by the deal, ProComp said.
.NET is a new middleware component according to the definitions of the proposed settlement. All new middleware components would need to be included in this control. Say Borland creates a better .NET VM and I wanted to use that one instead of MS's?
.NET isn't Java (after all, Java is much more mature), but it is a middleware component.
See?
So, yes,
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
I believe the issue came up when MS filed their "compliance update" with the court. At that point MS came forward with a document trying to claim that the Service Packs in question met requirements for their compliance with the proposed settlement.
This is what triggers the counterclaim/complaint from the ProComp group. The beta process for the Service Pack is to determine if there are any technical problems with it. It certainly isn't the forum for seeing if it complies with legal issues related to a proposed settlement.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
All local security should be overrideable with suitable physical access to the equipment. Period.
If the administrator password is lost, somebody with the right physical item should be able to recover it without having to pay money to the software author, or wait for somebody you don't have control over.
Don't confuse strong security with stupid security. The security doesn't do anybody any good if nobody has access.
Does this seem to anyone like the OJ Simpson Trial?? It's seems to have gone on as long if not longer than.
--Shivan
Microsoft reminds me of a kid who keeps sticking his hand through a fence behind which a big dog is running around and barking. Every time the dog gets close the kid pulls his hand back just in time to avoid being bitten. It's one of any number of games collectively called chicken in which the object is to see how close you can get to catastrophe without being bitten. It tends to be a childhood distraction but folks like Eval Knieval have made a living at it well into middle age. Microsoft, which is to say Little Billy, has never really had the experience of being beaten at it, so he doesn't have the gut level understanding of being bitten that most normal people have. And then one day the kid jerks his hand back a split second too late, gets mauled by the big dog, and runs home crying to mommy.
;-)
Microsoft isn't evil. They're not really even greedy beyond all comprehension. They just can't get past their little obsessive compulsive need to stick their hand through the fence one more time and annoy the big Federal Antitrust dog. I just hope I live long enough to see the little snot-nosed twirp get his arm ripped out of its socket.
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
You have been trolled, my friend. I saw this exact post yesterday (IIRC) in the BSD section. Someone even had a similar reply about how OpenBSD doesn't support SMP at this time. Please do not feed the trolls.
------
Random, useless fact: I type in startx entirely with my left hand.
MS doesn't distribute all their software with service packs. You can't download a base installation of XP that is compliant. That is the point. You buy a non-compliant product, then have to jump through hoops to download a patch to make it compliant.
.Net runtime? It isn't easy.
The average user, even developer, isn't going to do that. That is what the whole lawsuit was about. They distribute products that use the undo leverage they have in the field to squash the competition. A little later they might issue a service pack to fix the situation, just to try to look like a fair competitor.
If it is so easy a 10 year old can use it, explain to the rest of us how to disable the
And what icon are you looking at? The icon to run the CRL interpreter?
I don't think you get the complaint.
Change his story such that everybody who knows the admin password gets hit by a bus, and all the buildings where you store a physical copy of the password burn down simultaniously. How do you preplan for that?
Password protected systems should have built in password recovery that you don't need to contact the manufacturer to activate.
*BZZZT*
.Net framework has nothing to do with development. The .Net framework has to do with running programs compiled to the ".Net" CIL.
.Net programing. .Net is also the name associated with a special type of component normally refered to as web components. .Net is an ambiguous term that loosely describes several different aspects of things that may or may not have something to do with a VM.
.Net framework is nothing more than a VM, and nothing less than a VM, and if you don't understand that, you shouldn't even be on this board, let alone modded to insightful.
Sorry for playing, but you must turn in your MCSD at the door. There will be a nice parting kick in the pants for your stupidity.
The
VS.Net is a development environment that you could create ".Net" applications with. C# is one of these languages, with the special C#.Net designation for
But the
What the hell is Palladium, if not a mandatory DRM mechanism? Do you seriously believe that MSFT and Intel care one bit about privacy? Palladium was designed with the ??AA in mind. I think M$ wants a slice of the licence fees every private citizen will have to pay, for every piece of data which flows through the Palladium chip.
It fits the terms of middleware (as agreed by MS and Court) and is automaticlly installed along with a necessary OS patch of routine fixes. They said they couldn't fufill their contractual oblgation to Sun (they signed a legal contract to provide java with windows, then basiclly renigged. SUN even offed their own because MS refused to write a proper one!) by providing a proper java VM by download, yet they insert their own compteting application environment runtime in a neccessary patch for the OS. Same old MS tactics to me!
Everything about 'Set Program Access and Defaults' says consumers are unwelcome here," the developer said. "It's a barren place, compared to the rest of Windows XP, bereft of simple instructions or extended Help......
.....The trade group contended that the Windows 2000 version "is substantially less intuitive than (the one) in Windows XP
i have sp3 on win2k and i just took a look at the "set program access and defaults" which is so conveniently located on my start menu. (almost annoyingly convenient since i won't use it very often- if ever) Well, it was so easy to use that I can't even imagine what the help doc might say, perhaps something like this: if you want to use you current web browser instead of internet explorer, then select the choice for "use your current web browser", or if you would prefer to use internet explorer as your web browser, then select "use internet explorer". IMAO, if you need a help file to use this tool, then you have no business ever logging in to your machine as Administrator, which is what you need to be in order to use it (and rightly so).
Yes, they should make it EASY for you to login as administrator if you don't know the password... Maybe put a little button on the login prompt that says "Administrator, forgot your password?? Click here to login anyway"
It shouldn't be the OS' responsibility to implement recovery if you somehow manage to lose the password...
There *is* a password recovery system... although it's a stupid one. If you just reinstall Windows, it'll ask you for a new Admin Password, but it won't clean up your partition (ie, all your files will still be there). I'm not sure if it works with Windows XP, but it works with 2k.
Karma: Could be worse (could be raining)
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Yes. I think it's clear that you can't beat MS at their homecourt.
You need to take the battle somewhere else
No, they should make it so that you can push a key sequence at boot on the local console, or something similar. Yes, it is the OS' responsibility to make this possible. It is unacceptable to have no recourse against lost passwords.
Well, then this guy's story is bogus.
That is a stupid recovery system though.
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I knew id get modded down as a troll. but I dont care. Yes I am the father, we delivered him l;ast night. I came home to take a shower and get some toothepaste. and Im serious when i say that him and I mean to smite M$. lol Congrats for you too.
A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.
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Install is what I meant, and Im' sticking to it. Open Source ideology (program), when applied to the economy.(hardware)installed onto the economy. I wasnt talking about passing on a set of aesthetical values and I
A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.
oh and now i am using my laptop computer in the hospital, logged into a local wifi net. got to love it. im suprised there isnt to much inteference
A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.
And that's secure?? May as well add an option under the f8 menu along with the other options...
"Safe Mode"
"Safe Mode with Command Prompt"
[...]
"I'm allowed to have administrator access, really"
I would tend to agree that there should be *some* sort of method to retrieve a lost password, but I don't think it should be as easy as keystrokes or such...
You have to make a decision... which would you rather risk, an unauthorized user potentially getting into your financial data, or an authorized user potentially not being able to access said data...
I stand by my earlier comment that password management isn't the OS' responsibility, it lies with the users and the administrators.
[Palladium] is not DRM at all
But you also wrote:
[Palladium] will be used to implement very strong oppresive DRM schemes.
Any system designed and promoted specifically as a platform on top of which digital restrictions management can be easily implemented is itself a DRM system.
Palladium ... does not ... 3. Prevent you from doing anything to "untrusted" files.
Then what happens when Microsoft Word 2005 adopts a "trusted" default format and gives a Big Scary Ominous Dialog(tm) when you try to save in ascii, html, rtf, or previous Word formats?
[Palladium does not] 4. Run all the time.
Yes it does. Whenever you interact with a "trusted" file in Explorer.exe, Explorer.exe calls functions in Palladium.dll. Thus, Explorer.exe has to keep Palladium.dll loaded all the time.
The biggest problem with DRM in practice: If copyrighted works are available only in a form that prohibits all copying, then where is meaningful fair use?
Will I retire or break 10K?
It's either right in front of you when you click the "START" button, or it's at the top of the "PROGRAM'S" menu item, right next to the Windows Update entry.
We are also crying: Windows XP Shows the Direction Microsoft is Going.
Why not? Physical access should only be allowed to those with administrator access anyway. You haven't really protected your data by not having a password recovery mechanism, because somebody can walk out with the drive and access the data in a non-conventional manner. You loose money by not having authorized users able to access the data though. Bottom line: lock up the servers and have a password recovery mechanism.
Your server room should be locked anyway, because all your hardware that runs a real OS has a password recovery system, and I'm including your switches and routers in that too.
The OS MUST make password recovery possible. If not, then you can loose your valuable data.
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Actually, the one who should be getting a nice, swift kick in the ass is you.
Actually, it is you who do not understand. The .NET CLI is not a VM, and it is not an alternative to Java.
In reality (it's no so bad here, you should visit sometime), .NET is now an alternative to Win32 and COM+, and in the future will likely replace the Win32 API, in whole or in part.*
Oh, and if SUN wants an option to disable .NET because SUN claims that it is middleware, does that mean that they will go after DDE, OLE, OLE/DB, COM, DCOM, COM+, RDO, ADO, etc...
Thank you for purchasing Windows XP. Unfortunately, your copy of Windows will not run due to legal issues.
What, you think that MS would release the largest single class library in history (encapsulation nearly every Win32 API call and then some) just for kicks. Longhorn is supposed to be a total rewrite of Windows... and .Net will likely be its API.
Actually, the 'online shopping' is in Music Tasks. There's no pop-up...there easily COULD be, but right now, there isn't.
Second: of course it loads up in IE! You're already in it. Type a URL into address bar of the folder and you'll see what I mean.
Whether or not that should be the case is, of course, another story entirely. But right now, it is.
I mod down anyone who uses M$ in their posts. I like to live on the edge.
>> They have purposely made it so IE Icon keeps reappearing when you change some of the lower level >> settings.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
I mod down anyone who uses M$ in their posts. I like to live on the edge.
It's their product. If McDonalds decides to bundle a big Mac with a coke, they should have to right to do it. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. The same applies to Microsoft.
Remember, you don't have the right to buy any product in any configuration you want. Does McDonalds must offer a half-big Mac for $1.30 ? Or a big Mac with only 1 bun for lesser price ?
Lots organizations, many funded by the government, require use of Microsoft software in order to transact with them. Other "competitors" are not substitutable for Microsoft products in these situations since it isn't a matter of individual choice. Whether or not this situation is legal behavior for either Microsoft or, hypothetically, McDonalds, doesn't change the fact that the Microsoft situation is not "OK" for the consumer.
I find it mildly funny that only competitors of Microsoft are the ones who have felt that they need to complain about Service Pack 1. To begin with, anyone who has used any MS OS above Windows 98 KNOWS that they have to download the service packs and if they are a major service pack, they're gonna be big. Why is it that this 'group' feels they have to help the justice dept along with their case? It is possible that they have something else in mind beside everyone's good? BTW, the link to the reigisters article is: http://216.133.66.117/091802.pdf
Bill Gates: Althought their food is reasonably priced, they require that you eat it at their fancy restaurant and they charge a fortune just to sit down."
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
That's only the local admin account/password, not the domain password. If someone changes the domain admin password, and removes all admin level users from the Domain Admistrators group, then disappears, good luck getting your network running again. Although you can just build a couple of new domain controllers and use a new domain name (NT Security Domain, not anything to do with DNS-type domains, very confusing use of the word 'domain' by Microsoft), then use the parent post's method to gain access to the local admin account of all member servers, you can then link up the member servers to the new domain and be back in business. A pain in the ass, especially going thru and fixing all the services running that are running under domain accounts from the previous domain, but doable...
Linux Torvalds is not a whore! Linux kernel self destructing to save ethics.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Usually, the ten-year-olds are the only ones in the family who can use it.
That only proves that at 10 year old we reach top of our intellectual abilities.
I think you're right.
I'll ignore your idiotic ability to state the obvious.
-no broken link
I think we can edit and extend your statement into something more generic and applicable to slashdot:
Whoever modded this... doesn't have a clue.
I always want to ask: does it hurt an MCSE's diginity using Linux tools to recover their servers? :)
The article says: "Service Pack 1 for Windows XP itself is not readily accessible to consumers, and thus the mechanism purportedly settling the antitrust case is, by definition, not readily accessible," ProComp wrote in the letter. By default, Windows XP would automatically download SP1 in the background, then prompt the user to install it. ProComp said Microsoft's second violation is that Service Pack 1 neglects to provide Start Menu access to the middleware control, and doesn't include a short-cut icon to the control on the desktop. When installed, the "middleware control" is put on the top of the start menu. No, the short-cut icon wasn't put on the desktop, the only thing Microsoft puts on the desktop is the Recycle Bin (No, not even Internet Explorer) The third violation, ProComp charges, is that the middleware control is not intuitive and comes with no Help file for understanding how to use it. What's "not intuitive" about it? There's an option for "Microsoft" and "Non-Microsoft" , and "Custom"... then option boxes for each installed option. The group's allegation regarding a sixth violation rapped Microsoft for failing to include in the middleware control an option to disable Microsoft's .Net Framework Common Language Runtime, an alternative to Sun's Java Virtual Machine.
Microsoft's .NET CLR doesn't compete with Sun's JVM... it doesn't perform quite the same function... similar technology, but not a replacement of functionality.
samrolken
The article says:
.Net Framework Common Language Runtime, an alternative to Sun's Java Virtual Machine.
.NET CLR doesn't compete with Sun's JVM... it doesn't perform quite the same function... similar technology, but not a replacement of functionality.
"Service Pack 1 for Windows XP itself is not readily accessible to consumers, and thus the mechanism purportedly settling the antitrust case is, by definition, not readily accessible," ProComp wrote in the letter.
By default, Windows XP would automatically download SP1 in the background, then prompt the user to install it.
ProComp said Microsoft's second violation is that Service Pack 1 neglects to provide Start Menu access to the middleware control, and doesn't include a short-cut icon to the control on the desktop.
When installed, the "middleware control" is put on the top of the start menu. No, the short-cut icon wasn't put on the desktop, the only thing Microsoft puts on the desktop is the Recycle Bin (No, not even Internet Explorer)
The third violation, ProComp charges, is that the middleware control is not intuitive and comes with no Help file for understanding how to use it.
What's "not intuitive" about it? There's an option for "Microsoft" and "Non-Microsoft" , and "Custom"... then option boxes for each installed option.
The group's allegation regarding a sixth violation rapped Microsoft for failing to include in the middleware control an option to disable Microsoft's
Microsoft's
samrolken
After installing SP1, a FAT32 partition that happens to sit on the same drive as my Linux partition will VANISH from Windows upon rebooting. I have to manually add the drive through the control panel to get it back. Coincidence?
"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking
Seriously, would you people PLEASE just do a little research before shooting your mouth off. YOU DON'T NEED IE TO GET THE SERVICE PACKS!. Open this link: http://download.microsoft.com/download/whistler/SP /SP1/WXP/EN-US/xpsp1_en_x86.exe in any browser, Mozilla works nicely. It will proceed to send you XP SP 1. Hell, it'll even send it to you if you're on a Linux box, it doesn't care (it doesn't check). What requires IE is Windows Update, because it uses ActiveX controls that only IE supports. But you don't have to use Windows update, if you take 30 seconds to just look at the site and follow the links, you can find the raw file available for download. Same for Windows 2k SP3.
= /library/en-us/shellcc/platform/shell/programmersg uide/shell_adv/registeringapps.asp Again, it is not MS's fault if you are too lazy to look up the documentation they make available to you.
You are also full of crap about the new middleware control tool. It is documented on their site as well. Follow this link: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url
Next time don't be so quick to get all worked up and bach out an anti-MS resonse, and take some time to check your facts.
Didn't Microsoft do exactly that already (around when they first started seriously making an effort in the browser war)?:
-Giving away IE
-Licensing Windows to OEMs at a certain unit price
-Licensing Windows to OEMs at a lower price if they included IE
If Microsoft didn't have a monopoly, I'd agree with all your points.
Copyrights, Patents, Trademarks: temporary loans from the Public Domain, not real property ("intellectual" or otherwise)
Still supporting Microsoft? My gosh! Noone's even mentioned the fact that in order to uninstall MSN Messenger, you need to tweak the registry. Microsoft said it best when they decided to stop supporting JAVA. They said something like "Microsoft has grown tired of Sun trying to use the legal system to compete with Microsoft." That's like saying, "Yeah, you can beat us at football, if we follow all the rules." Just keep reading slashdot. It's becoming quite evident that the open source community, lead by Sun, is going to break Microsoft.
The CLR provides the ability to convert your java code to C# code, so it doesn't technically RUN java code, just converts it for you. And, if you'd read up on C#, you'd just see that it is just a Java clone.
Sun is also complaining becuase Microsoft has decided to not include the JDK or JVM in the windows environment or on windowsupdate, whereas they're releasing their own programming environment.
Nah, most MCSE never need to recover a password.
They set it to something sensible like their surname so they can't forget it. Plus I'm sure theres something in the DMCA about using Linux tools on Windows systems....
"I'm tired of all this 'Aren't humanity great' bullshit. We're a virus with shoes" - Bill Hicks
How bout we all just form an angry mob and kill Bill Gates? To quote someone on The Simpsons, "There's no justice like angry mob justice!"
Out of Cheese Error:
Please reboot universe
I did in fact install the .net framework just last night, and although it has some tools to develop, it doesn't have everything you need.
.net framework are two seperate entities.
.Net means is ambiguous at best. What most people mean when discussing .Net is the environment that your program will run in.
VS.Net, and the
And although I admit I stated some inaccuracies, my point was that what
And whatever MS wants to think about the future, currently it is middleware, and IS a replacement for java, and even has been marketed as a better java than java.
And on a completely seperate rant, what were they thinking. Reading the C#.Net book from MS Press, they start ranting on DLL Hell and how they fixed it. They created it. Talk about pissing down your back and telling you its raining.
The whole idea of assemblies is absolutely stupid, and the only way it makes sense, is when you just accept what MS tells you, and accept that its the way of the future, so you have to do it, so everyone will do it, so it will be the only way to do things, so it is obviously the right thing to do.
Even if I compile to native code, I have to have distribute the assembly. WTF is that about.
I stand by what I said.
Don't forget the dual boot issue in the OEM licensing. You remember the one that prevented BeOS from offering a boot screen on the PCs that it was installed on. Sure they could get an OEM to install their software but it was against the MS license for them to provide a boot loader to actually boot it.
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!
So what is the "proper" way to register a program? Why is it that you need such a complicated "registry" to begin with? Oh, I see! By adding un needed complexity you can stifle your competitors and rape your users. No thanks, I like things that work better than that and I'm not going to waste my time learning the M$ way d'jour.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.