Slashdot Mirror


OpenSSL Gets Cryptography Gift From Sun

Kataire writes "C|Net posted this story about how Sun Microsystems' has donated 'elliptic curve' encryption technology, (developed by Whitfield Diffie of Diffie-Hellman public key fame) to the OpenSSL project. This potentially means better encryption for lighter-weight systems such as PDAs."

217 comments

  1. Great! by mdechene · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now I can keep my pesky roommates out of my palms oh-so-full social calendar.

    --

    Karma: Not Particularly Funny.
    1. Re:Great! by Soko · · Score: 4, Funny

      Now I can keep my pesky roommates out of my palms oh-so-full social calendar.

      You mean right now you let *your* palm *date* your friends? Ewww....

      --
      "Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
    2. Re:Great! by mdechene · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Hey, palms get lonely too.

      --

      Karma: Not Particularly Funny.
    3. Re:Great! by unicron · · Score: 2

      Shit, not yours. You could see how hairy they are if you hadn't gone blind, heh-heh.

      --
      Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
    4. Re:Great! by Darkforge · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Actually, there is a real use for widespread heavy-duty crypto, even on a PDA: encrypted money tokens.

      If strong encrypted money tokens were to be implemented on a wide scale for, say, Palm PocketPC, Zaurus, and maybe a special purpose StrongARM device, you could expect to see a cheap widespread secure electronic payment mechanism that you can use for micropayments.

      Aside from the novelty of buying lunch with your PDA, this could be the next step towards truly secure electronic transfers. You can say goodbye to corporate privacy violations when you can pay for your online goods with secure anonymous electronic cash.

      Imagine paying your peers in a P2P system for MP3s/OGGs/whatever. Providing fat bandwidth for P2P would be a potential money-maker, not merely a labor of love. Throw in an anonymizing protocol and you're selling MP3 bandwidth online securely and untraceably; the RIAA couldn't shut you down, because there'd be no way to figure out who you were.

      That's the power of widespread strong crypto, especially in small devices.

      --

      When I moderate, I only use "-1, Overrated". That way, I never get meta-moderated!

    5. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Palms, dates-- why is it that Slashdot conversations always wind up involving nuts?

    6. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what is so wrong with the whole credit card system we have in place now? We could encrypt the mag stripes on them and skip the whole "buying lunch w/ your pda" bit. People these days tend to think about things too deeply. It's like inventing fold-up portable chairs to use in auditoriums so . . . you don't have to sit in the chairs that are already there.

    7. Re:Great! by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't know if you guys remember, but PayPal started off as a Palm App. It started as a solution for the bane of business lunches - having no money or just $20 bills and having to split, and then having to remember everything. So you could beam folks money adn it would show up in yur account. The problem is synching up the money, what if you reset your Palm before you synch the money to your account (I lost my $5 that way). They quickly realized that the amount of money in splitting a check wasn't as big as the big boy of trying to pay over the Internet, and they switched their model pretty quickly to that, quite successfully I might add.

    8. Re:Great! by Nailer · · Score: 2

      Better than dating your own palm.

      think about it...

    9. Re:Great! by Huge+Pi+Removal · · Score: 1

      The more I read /., the more I think there should be a new " -1: *sigh* " mod category.

      It should automatically be applied to any post with the word "beowulf" in it, of course... :)

      --
      - Oliver

      The right to bear arms is only slightly less stupid than the right to arm bears...
    10. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd rather date my own palm that have most of my friends date it (I am bisexual, I would imagine for monosexuals it would be even worse).

  2. If only Pocket IE supports it... by daveshih · · Score: 0

    And the chances of that happenning is ....

    1. Re:If only Pocket IE supports it... by Mr.T1 · · Score: 1

      What's the titel of that Eagles record again??

      --
      There I was, trying to rescue the world, but did it show any gratitude?
    2. Re:If only Pocket IE supports it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Very Best of the Eagles.

    3. Re:If only Pocket IE supports it... by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 2

      Hotel California?

      --
      Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
    4. Re:If only Pocket IE supports it... by Mr.T1 · · Score: 1

      Ok, I had that one comming... I was thinking more in the lines of:
      http://www.plegion.ru/info.asp?articul=GEF247 25
      Making this disussion ever so more international, don't you think?

      For some strange reason, the comment I replied to seems to have disappeared. Now it wasn't a very earthshaking comment I must admit, somewere along the lines 'When will Microsoft support it on my Pocket IE' but it does help to put my comment in perspective....

      --
      There I was, trying to rescue the world, but did it show any gratitude?
    5. Re:If only Pocket IE supports it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Long Run

  3. Is this the same as featured before? by Digitalia · · Score: 1

    This isn't the encryption scheme mentioned previously, when Slashdot reported that a distributed project has almost "broken" the scheme, is it?

    --
    Pax Digitalia
    1. Re:Is this the same as featured before? by bsharitt · · Score: 1

      That may be why Sun is getting rid of it.

    2. Re:Is this the same as featured before? by plcurechax · · Score: 2

      This isn't the encryption scheme mentioned previously, when Slashdot reported that a distributed project has almost "broken" the scheme, is it?

      If you mean the recent article in the last week. No.

      The recent /. article was a pointer to Schneier's Sept 2002 Crypto-gram about an academic weakness in AES.
      It's academic in that it is not possible to break (at present time, and oh the next hundred years) in real-life.

    3. Re:Is this the same as featured before? by AndersM · · Score: 3, Informative

      No... But there is a distributed project out there working very hard to crack it - but so far elliptic curve encryption holds out...

      By the way, Ars Technica has a team working hard on this project, and they I'm sure they'd like some help... ;-)

      --
      My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right! =)
    4. Re:Is this the same as featured before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Way to pimp for the team. :) I'm a member already.

    5. Re:Is this the same as featured before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might well need to think in the realms of five years, not a hundred. In a hundred years, we will be looking on quantum computers as _so_ last century. One hundred years ago, television hadn't been invented, and the concept of a bomb that split atoms would have got you a lot of funny looks - and a computer was a person with a pad of paper in a room, or at a stretch one of Babbage's infernal things with levers.

      The one thing Moore's Law can really teach you is this - one hundred years is _far_ too long to try to see into the future. Ten years is really pushing it, in this arena - new attacks and optimisations of those attacks can come almost out of the blue, and what we thought was conservative yesterday may be yet another algorithmic corpse on the sidewalk tomorrow.

      *Nothing* lasts a hundred years, except otp's when implemented correctly (and when are they?).

      The XSL attack on AES-256 started at worse than brute force, slipped to 2^200, then to 2^100, and then further down thanks to some good optimisations - it's only 2^87 complexity at the moment, and there are probably more optimisations to make to the attack yet. My own experiments slipped it to 2^80, but this was an academic, unrealistic memory tradeoff - and still the approximate complexity of finding, say, two pads that have the same SHA-1 hash, for example.

      The attack is against AES-256 only. It also works against Serpent-256 and -192, which should probably be avoided). I have no information about whether it works with Twofish (possibly not, the nonlinear terms might be too complex for it - for now, at least).

      AES-128 (the most used) does not appear to be as vulnerable - it doesn't seem to be sparse enough, but I'm not about to make any definitive statements on that - we might be one paper from seeing the whole cipher fall... but then we always were and always will be.

      Note, however, that good old-fashioned, ugly-as-sin TripleDES is still going strong at around 112 bits, so AES has violated one of its design goals - AES-256 is less secure than TripleDES, the infamous cryptanalysts' wolfsbane. And it may actually be that AES-128 is more secure than AES-256, which would be silly, but potentially possible.

      87 bits of security for 256 bits of key, though, through every round, even though not actually a break (unless _you_ want to search 87 bits... for one message), is compelling evidence in favour of deprecating the AES-256 cipher now - and a real lesson for those who believed that bigger key sizes yielded more secure ciphers.

      For what it's worth, Rijndael never gave *me* warm fuzzies anyway... but then I liked Serpent, which just goes to show you never can tell.

      In light of recent events, I think AES-256 will be broken by civilians within five years, and Rijndael as a whole will fall within ten - and some time before TripleDES. This attack is too elegant and ripe for optimisation to dismiss as _merely_ theoretical.

  4. This rocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yay encryption rulez! go SUN

    1. Re:This rocks by Ztyx · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sometimes I just love Sun!

  5. BSD?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this only for PDA's running xBSD?

    1. Re:BSD?? by Karamchand · · Score: 0

      didn't openssl come from openbsd..? a bit like openssh?

    2. Re:BSD?? by 4geru · · Score: 2, Informative

      No. OpenSSL was originally SSLeay written by Eric Young.

    3. Re:BSD?? by Karamchand · · Score: 0

      I never said it originally came from OpenBSD.

  6. It's not really that surprising by bsharitt · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sun is basically "arming the rebels" so they can better fight Microsoft. Even though they may have other motives, it's nice of them anyway.

    1. Re:It's not really that surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And themselves considering Sun ships ssh based on openssh on Solaris9 which naturally links to openssl.

    2. Re:It's not really that surprising by cpeterso · · Score: 2, Interesting


      Sun should watch out for blowback from these rebels. Look what happened when the US CIA funded, armed, and trained Saddam Hussein and Usama bin Laden.

      In all seriousness, if the open source desktop succeeds, who is more likely to profit, Sun or Dell?

    3. Re:It's not really that surprising by Mushy · · Score: 1

      Do you really have to see a conspiracy in everything? Or is it out of fear for posting on here that you have to say something negative before you can say anything positive about any issue?

    4. Re:It's not really that surprising by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Interesting
      "Sun is basically "arming the rebels""



      No. I think it this move was designed to improve Apache's security and make it a greater e-commerce tool on solaris( and unix). Sun relizes that more sun webservers use apache then Iplanet so they are donating the code to openssl since apache uses it by default. And not to just attack Microsoft. However I do question the timing since newly discovered ssl flaw recently in IIS/IE is making headline news and CIO's nervous.

      Something like this may have an impact in e-commerce purchasing decisions. .NET has made alot of hype and headway into the ecommerce market because its so easy to write a vb.net ecommerce site these days. In VB.NEt you can declare a subroutine as a webservice or applet(never used it but seen it)and it instantly becomes a servlet. This is something Sun has to fight. Windows Developers are really rallying upon .NET because thats all they know. Same reason why SQL-Server is getting popular. With palladium security will be a non issue so who knows what will happen. I do not see how sun could fight this unless use the more open TCPA standard. At least that one is not owned by Microsoft like palladium.

    5. Re:It's not really that surprising by SquadBoy · · Score: 3, Funny

      IMHO Sun because with the new workstations they are making you can get a Sun for the same price or less than a Dell. And *never* underestimate the power of "Geek Cool". And just how cool it is to have a Sun and just how uncool it is to have a Dell. :)

      --

      Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
    6. Re:It's not really that surprising by jbolden · · Score: 2

      You looked at the specs on those suns? I think Dell has them beat pretty cleanly. I use medium sized suns but for the under $10,000 system Wintel or Mac seem the way to go.

    7. Re:It's not really that surprising by kevin+lyda · · Score: 2

      sun's been arming the rebels for decades. where have you been sport?

      --
      US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
    8. Re:It's not really that surprising by Stonent1 · · Score: 0

      You're forgetting Java.. If Sun can get more ultra-mobile users on the net there will be more demand for Java apps as mobile platforms become more varied. X-Scale, x86, StrongARM, MIPS, SH-x and Dragonball/68k.

    9. Re:It's not really that surprising by Tony-A · · Score: 2

      The thing is: Ultimately Sun and the rebels and a few others are on the same side.
      WE DON'T LIKE BAD SOFTWARE.

    10. Re:It's not really that surprising by Tony-A · · Score: 2

      However I do question the timing since newly discovered ssl flaw recently in IIS/IE is making headline news and CIO's nervous.
      Personally, I think the timing is just loverly. Not only is the hole patched pronto and openly, but the machinery is being put into place so that Apache on Solaris (and others of course) can actually be trusted.
      At this point I'd be extremely leery of the ultimate security of Microsoft software.

    11. Re:It's not really that surprising by AntiTuX · · Score: 4, Interesting

      okay, I know this is a personal thing, but it's iPlanet, not Iplanet, or IPlanet. I used to work there, and it drove me nuts when someone would misspell it.

      I'll probably get modded out of commision for this, but I just really get tired of misspellings.
      Even though I was on the netscape side, and got laid off, I'm still loyal to iPlanet. They gave me my start in the IT world (head Sysadmin for iPlanet Learning Solutions), and I can't thank them enough for it.

    12. Re:It's not really that surprising by p3d0 · · Score: 1
      If you get up-in-arms over the spelling or pronunciation of a made-up tech-related word, you just might be a geek.

      My pet peeve is KB (=1024 bytes) versus kB (=1000 bytes) versus Kb (=1024 bits) versus kb (=1000 bits). I might be a geek too.

      --
      Patrick Doyle
      I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    13. Re:It's not really that surprising by jolan · · Score: 1

      And it really annoys me when people say "misspell" when they should be saying "incorrectly capatlize".

    14. Re:It's not really that surprising by jolan · · Score: 1

      Miscapitalize :)

    15. Re:It's not really that surprising by Demerara · · Score: 1

      With palladium security will be a non issue

      I'll bet $100 in any currency that this will be proved wishful thinking in a matter of days - a bit like Oracle's "Unbreakable" claim.

      Good luck with Palladium...

      --
      Backward%20compatibility%20is%20over-rated
    16. Re:It's not really that surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mismajuscule? (For the non US English slashdotter? Or, then again...)

  7. bah. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    cryptix.org has ECC for a while now as free code.

  8. Ugggh.. by unicron · · Score: 2

    I hate you bastards..get my curiosity flowing, now I get the waste the rest of the work day reading this I encrypted something on my pda once..then tossed it out. Rather unorthidox method of the onetime pad cypher, I know, but hey.

    --
    Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
    1. Re:Ugggh.. by shokk · · Score: 2

      Actually not so unorthodox. PGP's shred function did exactly that to securely delete files. Now, if you toss the PDA out, that's pretty radical security. Makes a whole new case for disposable devices.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
  9. Shouldn't this be placed under a different section by questionlp · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Although I use and keep up with the BSD side of things, but I think this affects the entire open source community as a whole, including xBSD, Linux, Apache+SSL, and gobs of other software that utilizes SSL for security.

    Nonetheless, it is great to see Sun contributing back to the community.

    This does bring up one question in my mind though... could this be used in SSL acceleration cards to improve the effiency of the SSL 'processor' (i.e.: keep the same performance level while reducing the amount of power necessary)?

  10. *BSD found petrified with hot grits! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whatever happened to the stockwatch troll? Did VA [whateverthefuckitisthismonth] finally get delisted?!!

  11. When cryptography is outlawed, by SHEENmaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    newlmsy akhtswnd whss adna nwsufaclanw!

    --
    You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
    1. Re:When cryptography is outlawed, by unicron · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I got 18 "cows" working on that right now, with ya in a sec.

      --
      Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
    2. Re:When cryptography is outlawed, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only outlaws will use cryptography....

    3. Re:When cryptography is outlawed, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we can always turn to the NRA for slogans. Liquore stores where I go to school used that one when the state (Indiana) passed a law for keg tracking (cryptography == kegs).

  12. Kudos to Sun by ebuck · · Score: 1


    Another fine donation by Sun. Congratulations to them for the offering.

  13. Good for more then PDA's by afidel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Since there is no known weakening from quantum computers of elyptic curve cryptosystems EC's may well be better for long term cryptography, even on supercomputers. Since it is pretty well known that the massive parallelism of quantom computers will greatly increase the ability of future systems to factor large numbers more traditional cyphers will be under more pressure.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    1. Re:Good for more then PDA's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      there is no known weakening from quantum computers of elyptic curve cryptosystems

      Huh? "Using the Quantum Computer to Break Elliptic Curve Cryptosystems"

    2. Re:Good for more then PDA's by jbrandon · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's just not true; Shor's algorithm transfers quite nicely to solving what is essentially the discrete log problem in a group. IOW: Elliptic curve cryto is not any safer. See This

    3. Re:Good for more then PDA's by ryanvm · · Score: 2

      That's just not true...

      You must be new here. Talking out of your ass is a very important part of social development here at Slashdot.

  14. elliptic curves? by crm114 · · Score: 1

    what about the Taniyama-Shimura conjecture? If openSSL would include that with elliptic curves we could solve Fermat's last theorem on our PDA's...

    1. Re:elliptic curves? by dollargonzo · · Score: 1

      but since they are modular, we could also use them for traditional pgp style encryption, no? instead of symmetric keys, you could use a public key.

      --
      BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
    2. Re:elliptic curves? by plcurechax · · Score: 3, Insightful

      but since they are modular, we could also use them for traditional pgp style encryption, no? instead of symmetric keys, you could use a public key.

      SSL and PGP (or preferrably the newer OpenPGP) standard both use a hybrid scheme which uses both asymmetric and symmetric encryption algorithms.

      If you mean could elliptic curves schemes (ECDLP, ECDSA, ECDH) be used in OpenPGP as well as SSL/TLS; then yes as long as it was added to the OpenPGP standards which I don't think includes ECC yet but has spaces reserved for future ECC use.

  15. so now by frodo+from+middle+ea · · Score: 1

    so now do we hate sun or love sun ?

    --
    for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
    1. Re:so now by unicron · · Score: 2

      I don't know, I wrote the anwser in my pda but the encrpytion is too rough, can't get back in.

      --
      Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
    2. Re:so now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We make our own independent opinons and think for ourselfs in this question and in many others. This way we contribute more than being a sheep in the flock.

    3. Re:so now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think for yourself for a change.

    4. Re:so now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be new here.

  16. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by bsharitt · · Score: 1

    Nonetheless, it is great to see Sun contributing back to the community.

    Now let's see if we can get the to contibute Solaris to the community.

  17. Offering from large companies by phorm · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Has anybody noticed a trend lately of large corporations or companies making offers to the public source movements. Is this a play between them for notice, or are they finally starting to figure out that it's better to play nice with open source than fight against it?

    1. Re:Offering from large companies by Deagol · · Score: 2
      My guess is that they benefit by being able to offload development of key libraries to willing, competent developers. Why should Sun waste time on their own crypto library when there's the OpenSSL group writing and debugging code and there are many more trying to find weaknesses in it?

      The gesture isn't alturistic, I'm sure. Still, everyone benefits. Sun gets kudos for helping a project that is held highly by everyone else, and the project gets another algorithm under its hood.

    2. Re:Offering from large companies by chris_mahan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You know the old saying: If you can't beat them, join them?

      Well, any corporation can be beat if they screw up. Sun's stock hovers around 3 and Oracle is scraping by at 9. MSFT would have gone down with them had they not been aggressively buying their own shares to prop up the price. ( I fear they too will tank in time--yay)

      Rather, open source developers can't be beat. You can't sue them, fire them, or force them one way or another. If one gets disgruntled about life and everything, five more rise to the occasion (with appropriate amount of bickering--but no ones dies of bickering... ni! ni! ni! ).

      This, I think, is a perfect case of: Since they (the Corps) can't beat us (the OS Devs) they're joining us.

      I just hope we don't jump on the bandwagon wholesale. Their evil ways are insidious, promising riches and glory,capitalism style, but lead straight down the Road to Perdition to the Bankruptcy Court.

      Harken thee: inspect the mouth of the gift horse. (translation: watch your back OSS)

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    3. Re:Offering from large companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It is about compromising complementary businesses.

      Sun's views their business as servers, and big iron, places where linux is not really making such strong inroads. Mega-servers are still dominated by big iron.

      So, having as much client competition as possible makes sense. So, good crypto on the client increases client competition, and weakens Microsoft's hold on it.

      All Sun really needs is for linux to be a serious client competitor. Then the focus shifts to the server, where Sun dominates other companies.

      You could see Microsoft use this strategy when they maintained rights to DOS after licensing to IBM. They licensed DOS to all hardware manufacturers, to make them compete. Hardware became a tough business, and Microsoft got a monopoly.

    4. Re:Offering from large companies by kevin+lyda · · Score: 4, Interesting

      sun has been contributing to free software for decades. they didn't make a big production of it, but it's been happening anyway. now yes, for the past few years they've been rather obnoxious on certain fronts, but for the most part they've done their bit.

      denegrating this contribution as if it's a new position sun isn't very fair to their company or their developers.

      --
      US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
    5. Re:Offering from large companies by SN74S181 · · Score: 1

      How come Sun took forever to produce a native JVM for Linux? It seems to me it was a big problem up until fairly recently.

    6. Re:Offering from large companies by Arandir · · Score: 1

      Open Source != Linux

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    7. Re:Offering from large companies by SN74S181 · · Score: 1

      Okay. Just so we're clear that Sun can 'support the Open Source community' while impeding Linux wherever they feel it competes with Solaris.

    8. Re:Offering from large companies by Arandir · · Score: 1

      Sigh. Sun can contribute to Open Source without having to contribute to Linux.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
  18. Certicom SecureMemo? by hey+you,+it's+me · · Score: 1

    When I first got my Visor, a co-worker sent me an app he had been using to encrypt passwords and such. It was called Certicom SecureMemo. To set it up, you would drag your stylus in circles (elliptic curves), and it would generate a key based on this. Now, my question is, doesn't this imply that this technology is already implemented on Palm? Given, it's not OSS, but it is there.

    Unfortunately, I think Certicom pulled the app from their site. Nice app.

    1. Re:Certicom SecureMemo? by lamp77 · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure it does not imply this, no.

      your drawing was likely just random input.

    2. Re:Certicom SecureMemo? by bo-eric · · Score: 1

      My guess is that the "elliptic curves" you drew were used to create random numbers, like when you are asked to type random stuff when generating gpg keys. The elliptic curves in Diffie-Hellman are just there as part of the mathematical problem that makes the cipher difficult to decode. The curves there are huge - nothing you could draw on-screen (more like with radii on the order of 2**1024). So no, that does not necessarily imply that they used the same cipher.

      --

      -- Free speech is only free if your time is worth nothing.
    3. Re:Certicom SecureMemo? by AndersM · · Score: 1

      I'm no expert, but my guess would be that the "drag your stylus about" part was almost certainly just random number generation, and the crypto just, well, plain crypto...

      Elliptic Curves refer to a set of mathematics... Here's a FAQ!

      --
      My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right! =)
    4. Re:Certicom SecureMemo? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Totally different. You're way off. Although that Palm program sounds neato.

    5. Re:Certicom SecureMemo? by BigBadBri · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up - should be 5-funny.

      Unless of course s/he means it...

      --
      oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
    6. Re:Certicom SecureMemo? by jps3 · · Score: 1

      Read this http://world.std.com/~dpj/elliptic.html link for a description of elliptic curve cryptography. It's not about drawing random curvilinear shapes, much more complex. Though that app does sound kind of interesting...

  19. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by questionlp · · Score: 1

    ... that and an unrestricted version of Solaris 9 for x86 (unrestricted meaning that it can be purchased/downloaded and used on non-Sun hardware) that supports more more hardware than what Solaris 8 supports.

  20. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OpenSSL is written by the OpenBSD people.

    Therefore, the correct section is BSD.

  21. Please say it's patented.. by GauteL · · Score: 2, Flamebait

    .. and that they have given a irreversible distribution right for free software, so that its usable on free software but not for proprietary software unlicensed by SUN.

    Or... was that a rather evil thought? I'm not sure anymore, I'm so blinded by my zealotism.

    1. Re:Please say it's patented.. by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 2

      IIRC, it's patented, but not by Sun.

    2. Re:Please say it's patented.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up!

      (Or unpatented, of course).

      I believe the patenting thing is

      holding up ECC supporting in e.g. FreeS/WAN.

    3. Re:Please say it's patented.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'm not sure anymore, I'm so blinded by my zealotism.

      Zealotism? Is that some sort of degenerative eye disorder? Perhaps those new bionic eyes they are making will fix that for you.

    4. Re:Please say it's patented.. by wfmcwalter · · Score: 1
      Some specific eliptic-curve crypto is patented, but the idea in general isn't:

      See our helpful friends (ahem) down at RSA. Dan Bernstein has more here.

      --
      ## W.Finlay McWalter ## http://www.mcwalter.org ##
    5. Re:Please say it's patented.. by Claric · · Score: 1

      Seeing as Diffie works for Sun I think that this probably isn't an issue.

      C

      --
      There's no problem that cannot be solved with a suitable amount of high explosives
    6. Re:Please say it's patented.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some zealots have more sense than you. If the code isn't encumbered, then there's no reason Linux can't use the code. If it isn't particularly useful code, then what do you care?

    7. Re:Please say it's patented.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, there are zealots and then there are "useful idiots". You don't fall into either category... unless Microsoft considers retards like yourself to be damaging to the free software movement. Clinton needed Jocelyn Elders more than Linux needs self-styled "zealots" like yourself.

  22. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by plcurechax · · Score: 2

    could this be used in SSL acceleration cards to improve the effiency of the SSL 'processor'

    Unlikely in presently deployed accelerator cards, since AFAIK most (Rainbow CryptoSwift and nCipher) are based on custom hardware chips (FPGA and the likes) which do mainly RSA key setup which is the really slow part of establishing a SSL session. I believe several of the cards do not even do any symmetric (i.e. RC4, 3DES) acceleration because it isn't worth it.

  23. Nice - but is it really necessary? by theskov · · Score: 1

    Doesn't most hand-helds have more than enough processing power for encryption? Since you don't have broadband connections, the highest possible pressure on the processor is to encrypt/decrypt 56 kbit/s. With f.ex. 233 MHz, that's around 30 MHz pr. kbyte. And if you're encrypting financial transactions the amount of data transfered is very, very small.

    The article cites that current encryption technology is based on 17th and 18th century mathematics - so is quite a lot of other things that work very well indeed. Mathematics don't deteriorate.

    Of course this is a Good Thing (tm), but I honestly don't think that many people will ever notice a difference.

    1. Re:Nice - but is it really necessary? by plcurechax · · Score: 2

      Doesn't most hand-helds have more than enough processing power for encryption?

      Most high end PDAs do for file encryption, but as increased demand for WTLS (Wireless TLS), "wireless speed" encryption for high speed GPRS/Bluetooth/802.11/1X networking applications. Applications like online wireless betting or online wireless reservations need better (read: quick) security in PDAs and mobile phones, which have less powerful processors.

    2. Re:Nice - but is it really necessary? by g!sys1 · · Score: 1
      It actually is necessary, but not in order to sustain the maximum datarate of 56 kbit/s. ECC is used only during the setup phase.

      The reason why it is still necessary can be easily seen from the following performance numbers (Handspring Visor, 16MHz):

      RSA-512: ~30 secs/encryption
      RSA-1024: ~240 secs/encryption
      ECC-160: ~3 secs/encryption

      The security of ECC-160 is roughly equivalent to that of 1024 bits RSA. Imagine you want to check your bank account from your Palm and have to wait 4 minutes before the session can be established! Interactive? I don't think so...

      Of course: current PDAs are much faster, but still the complexity of RSA is so much higher than that of ECC. So, yes it is necessary.

      Gunnar

      Oh - and did I mention: RSA-512 was broken in 1999... :)

  24. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by bsharitt · · Score: 1

    But if they would release it under an open source license, the best of Solaris could be mixed with the best of Linux. Not to mention one of the real unixes as open source would be neat.

  25. Just what was donated? by Deagol · · Score: 2

    I read the article, but "technology" was the only thing I read was "donated". WTF does that mean? Did they give them reference code with a GPL (or whetever the OpenSSL library uses)? Did they give up patent rights to the method? The article didn't explain just what the OpenSSL folks got.

    1. Re:Just what was donated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sun donated to OpenSSL an implementation of the elliptic curve crypto technology, in the form of working code integrated with openssl source tree. One can download today a working version openssl that performs secure SSL/TLS handshakes using the elliptic curve cipher suites such as ECDSA and ECDH.

  26. 8-10 years from now? by NerveGas · · Score: 2


    Supposedly, this offers encryption with less computational demand. And, supposedly, it's not going to be in use for 5 to 10 years.

    If that's the case, my quesion is this: Why bother? Moore's law says that in the 10 years that it will take to get this implemented, CPU's will be *64 times faster* than they are today.

    Just think: "Wow! With this new encryption technology, encrypted 100 megabit networking only takes 0.05% of my processer instead of 0.1%!"

    steve

    --
    Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
    1. Re:8-10 years from now? by Colin+Bayer · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Moore's Law states that (barring physical laws), the number of transistors on a square unit of substrate will double every 6 months. The number of transistors does not necessarily have a linear correlation to clockspeed.

      --
      Want Linux games? HERE.
    2. Re:8-10 years from now? by tot · · Score: 1

      Computing needs electricity which is limited resource in mobile devices. Thus having anything to use less computing increases the battery life.

    3. Re:8-10 years from now? by NerveGas · · Score: 2

      Right, but we keep making individual transistors smaller and smaller, letting them use less and less power. Of course, CPU manufacturers tend to simply add more transistors and/or increase the frequency to make up for the power savings.

      Look at the newest, fastest Athlons - they produce less heat than considerably older versions. Why? Smaller manufacturing process. And that's going to keep on going...

      steve

      --
      Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
    4. Re:8-10 years from now? by Junta · · Score: 2

      and by the same token, clockseed does not necessarily have a linear correlation to performance :)

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    5. Re:8-10 years from now? by NerveGas · · Score: 2


      You're half right, half wrong. Moore's law DOES deal with transistor count. However, it says that it will double every 18 months, not every 6 months. (originally, it was 24 months, but later revised.)

      In practice, however, the actual computational power has been doubling about every 18 months as well.

      As evidence, look at where we were 10 year ago: The big, bad processer to have was a 33 MHz 486. Today's high-end processers have MORE than 64 times the computational power of the 486 of a decade ago - and there's no indication that we're not going to keep on track for another decade.

      steve

      --
      Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
    6. Re:8-10 years from now? by dillon_rinker · · Score: 2

      Wrong. "Moore's Law" is more accurately called "Moore's observation" - "You know, transistor density in ICs seems to have been doubling every 18 months."

    7. Re:8-10 years from now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However it is very close. Statisticly +-50% Not += 1000% or even 100%. You could in all honesty say that yes, it does, and be closer to being correct that saying that it doesn't.

    8. Re:8-10 years from now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can also read that as saying current computers will cost 1/64th of what they do now. There's lots of interesting things you can do with little networked computers if they are cheap enough.

    9. Re:8-10 years from now? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Really? According to 'openssl speed' my Cyrix 233 server can encrypt with blowfish 4MB/s. Which is definitely not as good as it could be since I have a 100Mbps full duplex switched network. A good encryption method that's faster would certainly be welcome.

    10. Re:8-10 years from now? by yerricde · · Score: 1

      my Cyrix 233 server can encrypt with blowfish 4MB/s ... I have a 100Mbps full duplex switched network.

      At that rate, you can fill 1/5 of your pipe (20 Mbps up and 20 Mbps down) with crypto. What is your site about that needs encryption on large transfers? Or do you just have a lot of pageviews per day?

      --
      Will I retire or break 10K?
    11. Re:8-10 years from now? by Stonent1 · · Score: 1

      Yeah well my webserver, a 50Mhz MicroSPARC can do 508KBps.. Yeah.. That's right... Ph33r!

    12. Re:8-10 years from now? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      No, that's not the problem, I have just normal ADSL. The problem is that the backup generates two 500MB files. When I was on 10Mbps it was a real pain to transfer that to the main computer for burning to CD-RW. Now it got better, but still not as well as I hoped. Ideally the transfer speed should be high enough to burn from the network. For the CD-RWs it should already work, but I'm not so sure about burning CD-R at 24x.

      In general, I transfer quite a lot of large stuff like CD images by the network and due to security and RAM usage reasons I only use SSH. I could run a FTP server, but it doesn't make much sense and it'd be another server to take care of.

    13. Re:8-10 years from now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the CD-RWs it should already work, but I'm not so sure about burning CD-R at 24x.

      CD-R burned at 8x is more reliable anyway. The transition from dark pits to light pits is much sharper at 8x than at 24x.

    14. Re:8-10 years from now? by God!+Awful · · Score: 2


      Supposedly, this offers encryption with less computational demand. And, supposedly, it's not going to be in use for 5 to 10 years.

      I know the article was a bit low on facts (and more of a big ad for Sun), but you really need to do some Googling before you post. In fact, ECC is used for key agreement and sometimes authentication but almost never encryption.

      If that's the case, my quesion is this: Why bother? Moore's law says that in the 10 years that it will take to get this implemented, CPU's will be *64 times faster* than they are today.

      It makes a big difference. Public key operations are slow by nature. When you decrease the keylength, not only do you have fewer bigint multiplies to perform, but the real key is that you are multiplying smaller numbers. Keep in mind that in 10 years you will also need to use longer keylengths to be secure.

      Just think: "Wow! With this new encryption technology, encrypted 100 megabit networking only takes 0.05% of my processer instead of 0.1%!"

      Maybe in 10 years your networking apps will require 64 times as much bandwidth. Anyway, it's a moot point since no one uses ECC for encryption. ECC is used mostly for key agreement, where practical key lengths are limited by how long you want to make the user wait. A Diffie-Hellman operation with a conservative key length could take as much as 5 seconds of CPU time on a Pentium 2. The equivalent ECCDH negotiation might take only 1 second. Surely that's a significant enough difference.

      -a

  27. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by questionlp · · Score: 1

    I know that OpenSSH is maintained and developed primarily by OpenBSD developers, but I thought that OpenSSL was separate from OpenBSD.

  28. Certicom has done commercial ECC for years by geekotourist · · Score: 2

    The article reads as if using ECC for small devices is a novel concept. That isn't the case- Certicom is 15 years old, and has done ECC for handheld and embedded devices for at least 4-5 years. It has some solid encryption researchers (Scott Vanstone, for example) and a bundle of patents. Most Palms out today use Certicom's ECC, although newer versions are using RSA. And while Certicom is probably the best known company promoting ECC, I know of several other companies in Japan, Korea and Germany that sell their own implementations of ECC.

  29. Why is *Sun* getting the nod for this technology? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...given that it was invented by NeXT?

  30. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by JDizzy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    OpenSSL is not the child of OpenBSD, nor a cousin of OpenSSH. OpenSSL is an independant project.

    OpenSSH is a baby of openBSD, and OpenSSH depends on OpenSSL.

    The Eliptic curve stuff was donated to OpenSSH team, not the OpenSSL group. So dreaming about this in your ssl accelerated card of the future is a bit silly. However, if openSSH team open sources the tech, and that tech is under bsd lisence, then maybe it will work its way down into the chip makers crypto designes.

    --
    It isn't a lie if you belive it.
  31. Re:Get some PRIORITIES! by wizardmax · · Score: 1

    We are techs/geeks, thats what we do. We don't politicize or make war! We do what we are best at.

    --


    Free speech is getting expensive...
  32. Securing edge of network devices by clutch110 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can see this as a positive step to secure the network end to end, from the server room down to the smallest of devices, the PDA.

    As it stands now, having a wireless network could be a blessing. Information available at your finger tips. PDAs have never been a strong focal point for security in my experience. It will be great to see a network that can be truly encrypted end to end.

    Now if only the user friendliness of this made it so that even the ordinary citizen could use it.

  33. Bush's advisor present, official government suppor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    You know what that tells us, right?

    The NSA can already crack it. :)

  34. Wrong. OpenSSL != OpenSSH by plcurechax · · Score: 5, Informative

    OpenSSL is written by the OpenBSD people

    Not quite.

    OpenSSL is maintained by OpenSSL core members: Ralf S. Engelschall, Ben Laurie, Mark J. Cox, Dr. Stephen Henson, and others developers.

    OpenSSH was written by OpenBSD members (Theo de Raadt, Niels Provos, Markus Friedl, Dug Song, and others). OpenSSH uses OpenSSL as a cryptographic library source (it is highly optimized for many processors).

    1. Re:Wrong. OpenSSL != OpenSSH by rabidcow · · Score: 1

      OpenSSL, OpenSSH...

      Hm, if they made an "open source" processor, would it feature OpenSSE?

    2. Re:Wrong. OpenSSL != OpenSSH by donfede · · Score: 1
      > OpenSSL is written by the OpenBSD people

      Not quite.

      OpenSSL is maintained by OpenSSL core members: Ralf S. Engelschall, Ben Laurie, Mark J. Cox, Dr. Stephen Henson, and others developers. [openssl.org]

      OpenSSH was written by OpenBSD members (Theo de Raadt, Niels Provos, Markus Friedl, Dug Song, and others). OpenSSH uses OpenSSL as a cryptographic library source (it is highly optimized for many processors).


      Not quite.

      From the debian ssh package readme:
      1. Although this package is widely referred to as OpenSSH, it is actually a branch of an early version of ssh which has been tidied up by the OpenBSD folks.

      So 'OpenSSH' was originally witten by Tatu Ylonen and added to by Aaron Campbell, Bob Beck, Markus Friedl, Niels Provos, Theo de Raadt, and Dug Song.

      donfed
    3. Re:Wrong. OpenSSL != OpenSSH by plcurechax · · Score: 1

      So 'OpenSSH' was originally witten by Tatu Ylonen and added to by Aaron Campbell, Bob Beck, Markus Friedl, Niels Provos, Theo de Raadt, and Dug Song.

      OpenSSH uses source originally written by Tatu Ylonen (ssh 1.2.12), and Björn Grönvall (OSSH), but OpenSSH was created by the OpenBSD developers (Aaron Campbell, Bob Beck, Markus Friedl, Niels Provos, Theo de Raadt, and Dug Song).

    4. Re:Wrong. OpenSSL != OpenSSH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, something tells me that OpenSSL needs to get with the program. OpenSSL code is said to be convoluted and sloppy. By now, OpenSSH folks have cleaned up their act.

  35. BSD!?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So how in the hell is this a BSD-specific article!?!?!

  36. Instead.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...they should have donated some decent web servers to them so I can access the OpenSSL site more than once a week.

  37. Re:NeXT, did NOT invent ECC. by plcurechax · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...given that it was invented by NeXT?

    Sorry, Ellipitic curve cryptography was invented independantly by Neal Koblitz, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Washington and Victor Miller who was then at IBM.
    (Source)

  38. Why don't they release a OPENSSL patch for Cobalts by backtick · · Score: 2, Offtopic

    If they are so *&*^ serious about security? The slapper worm has been out for quite a while now, and Sun's cobalts run a REALLY old version of OpenSSL. Sun's last patch was released almost a month ago, for a CGI vulnerability. They've been asked dozens of times about the OpenSSL patch, and won't even give customers the courtesy of a "We're going to have one by X" response. CobaltOS is just a flippin' rebuilt RedHat OS; it isn't hard to patch!

  39. BSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BSD? Huh?

  40. Re:Get some PRIORITIES! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like bite on really stupid trolls?

  41. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by questionlp · · Score: 1
    Blockquoth the poster:
    The Eliptic curve stuff was donated to OpenSSH team, not the OpenSSL group.
    You may want to re-read the News.com article again as the code was donated to the OpenSSL group, NOT the OpenSSH group.

    Blockquoth the News.com article

    The Santa Clara, Calif.-based server seller donated the technology to the OpenSSL project, a programming group that makes an open-source version of the Secure Sockets Layer (SSL) encryption system.
  42. Why is this significant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know the keys used for ECC are generally smaller, but that seems like a fairly minor consideration even for PDAs (how many keys do you ever need to store anyway?)

    Is eliptic curve cryptography actually faster than RSA? If so, by how much?

    And if it IS faster, wouldn't it be much more useful for web servers than for PDAs?

    1. Re:Why is this significant? by plcurechax · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I know the keys used for ECC are generally smaller, but that seems like a fairly minor consideration even for PDAs

      ECC uses smaller keys, which is suitable for very small networked devices like network appliances, that use cheap (<$1) 8-bit microprocessors with very small amounts of NVRAM.

      Is eliptic curve cryptography actually faster than RSA?

      Yes, which is the major advantage over RSA, more important in most applications than the storage of smaller keys. I don't know exactly but I estimate in the area of 10 to 100 times faster for "equal" level of confidence in security.

      And if it IS faster, wouldn't it be much more useful for web servers than for PDAs?

      Think mobile phones, or cheap network household appliances with 8 and 16-bit microprocessors with clock speeds less than 12MHz. It also means lower power comsumption which is important for most battery powered devices.

    2. Re:Why is this significant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know exactly but I estimate in the area of 10 to 100 times faster for "equal" level of confidence in security.

      All the information I could find on the web indicates that it's faster than RSA for certain operations (e.g. signing), but actually much slower for other operations (e.g. verifying a signature). So it's applicability might depend on what operations the small devices needed to perform.

      However these comparisons were probably of implementations on 32-bit architectures. Does the picture change for 8 or 16-bit CPUs?

  43. GOD DAMN YOU'RE STUPID!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    did yo momma drop u on ur head when u was a little rugrat worm you stupid piece of shit... go fuck off yourself u fucking scumbag

  44. it's all strategy by g4dget · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Companies give software away for many reasons: PR, establishing standards, driving competitors out of the market, and hurting competitors financially are among them. Sharing development efforts may be as well, but usually is not. Sometimes such strategies are combined with "dual licensing schemes", where open source is used to gain a foothold in a commercially meaningless part of the market to prop up a product that otherwise wouldn't be competitive.

    Not all such gifts are useful for the recipient, and some are genuinely harmful to the interests of open source users. So, do look a gift horse in the mouth, or you may be stuck with large vet bills otherwise.

    This one seems harmless if it is on unpatented technology, or if the patents are free for use by open source.

  45. Re:Certicom has done commercial ECC for years by cheezit · · Score: 1

    Ah, the magic word: "Patent"

    ECC algorithms have all sorts of submarine patents and prior art that have prevented widespread adoption. Sun's donation does not change that.

    Too bad, coz ECC is way cool. I did a digital signature app with Certicom ECC that resulted in 42-byte signatures.

    --
    Premature optimization is the root of all evil
  46. The BSD license is evil by Arandir · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    The BSD license is evil. It is a license to steal. Using it will only ensure that corporations will not contribute anything back to the community... ...What's that? Sun contributed back? Well, shit. That ruins that argument...

    --
    A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    1. Re:The BSD license is evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and apple stole and stole and stole. wait, nevermind.

    2. Re:The BSD license is evil by ozzmosis · · Score: 1

      You miss understand the point of the BSD license. People who use it want EVERYONE to be able to use their code for what ever reason they see fit.

  47. Re:Why don't they release a OPENSSL patch for Coba by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then why don't you fix it yourself? Is RPM --rebuild too much trouble for you?

  48. Whitfield Diffie did NOT invent ECC by plcurechax · · Score: 5, Informative

    'elliptic curve' encryption technology, (developed by Whitfield Diffie of Diffie-Hellman public key fame)

    Elliptic curve cryptography was indepentantly
    invented by Neal Koblitz, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Washington and Victor Miller who was then at IBM.
    (Source)

    Whitfield Diffie is Sun's chief security officer, and co-invented public-key cryptography.

  49. wrong, wrong, _wrong_ ! by jacobb · · Score: 3, Informative
    You are wrong, wrong, wrong . plain and simple.

    In fact, it has and can be easily shown that by solving "the factoring problem" (as it's oh-so-vulgarly put) or the discrete log problem of classical public key cryptosystems, one solves EC's. The problems are extensions of one another, and the solution to one is trivially deducible from the solution to another.
    your statement was like saying "unlike Webster's Dictionary, the Oxford English Dictonary has no words in it" - pure and utter nonsense. gibberish.

    All ECC's are (in boiled-down essence), is a Discrete Log problem on a cubic whose solutions are confined to a torus. (i.e. 'elliptic curve').
    while it's true that the keysize needed for secure ECC is much, much smaller and increases much much more slowly than either DL (discrete log) or IF (integer factorization) [both of which are essentially exactly the same] systems, this has to do with the way the field is set up and how the keys correspond.

    1. Re:wrong, wrong, _wrong_ ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong, wrong, wrong. Moderators, you are on crack. Please outline (or give a reference) to a polytime reduction from integer factorization to solving dlogs on an EC.

  50. Is speed really all that necessary either? by yerricde · · Score: 1

    Applications like online wireless betting or online wireless reservations need better (read: quick) security in PDAs and mobile phones

    But don't e-commerce apps typically have small data packets? Encrypting a tightly packed transaction on a 16 MHz ARM processor won't take very long.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
    1. Re:Is speed really all that necessary either? by plcurechax · · Score: 2

      Encrypting a tightly packed transaction on a 16 MHz ARM processor won't take very long.

      I think a 16 MHz ARM processor would only be in a "high end" smart phone, or a PDA and not your mass market average cell phone.

      ECC makes a big difference for low cost mass market microprocessors. Think 8 or 16 bit, less than 12 MHz on average. 1024 bit RSA encryption can take up to 1 minute in such environments.

  51. Double Funny by hendridm · · Score: 2, Funny

    > Now I can keep my pesky roommates out of my palm's oh-so-full social calendar.

    Actually, this can be taken in more than one way, especially since "palm" isn't capitalized.

  52. Sounds like something 'the tick' would say by ocie · · Score: 4, Funny

    Well Arthur, it looks like this elipse has come full circle.

    --
    JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
    1. Re:Sounds like something 'the tick' would say by plcurechax · · Score: 1

      ... this elipse has come full circle.

      Groan. Elliptic Curves are not an ellipse (similar to a deformed circle), but elliptic curve.

      E.g. y^2 + y = x^3 - x^2

  53. Re:Get some PRIORITIES! by stwrtpj · · Score: 1
    Okay, time to take another offtopic mod risk, but I had to reply to this ...

    We are techs/geeks, thats what we do. We don't politicize or make war! We do what we are best at.

    And the fact that we're not politicizing may be part of the problem, and why (to try to make some semblance of being on-topic), we should be encouraging of companies that try to donate stuff back to the community. If we simply sit at our computers and code away, sure, that may be what we're best at, but then the rest of the world passes us by, and suddenly what we've always liked to work on is no longer relevant.

    So I think it behooves us to get involved in the world past the computer. We can't live in our own little kingdoms, or we become just as bad as the monolithic companies we so like to criticize.

    As for us not making war, I beg to differ. Here's a few wars that we are quite well-engaged in:

    • GNOME vs KDE
    • This Linux distro vs that Linux distro
    • Linux vs BSD

    Really, if you look at it, the tech/geek culture is the world in microcosm.

    --
    Karma: Frotzed (mostly due to the Frobozz Magic Karma Company)
  54. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by stebilad · · Score: 1

    The Eliptic curve stuff was donated to OpenSSH team

    No, the Elliptic Curve code was donated to OpenSSL. OpenSSL is used in, among other things, OpenSSH. The OpenSSL license is BSD-like, but not strictly a BSD license.

    Additionally, it is very possible to accelerate SSL in hardware. In fact, the Sun project page itself talks about integrating ECC and SSL support into a hardware accellerator.

  55. not to sound bitter... by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    but so what?

    My crypto lib has supported [non-P1363] ECC crypto since quite sometime now. Big deal.

    http://libtomcrypt.sunsite.dk
    or
    http://tom.ia hu.ca

    I use ECC in the traditional ElGamal method without standard packet formats. But the idea is the same...

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  56. Elegy for *BSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I am a *BSD user
    and I try hard to be brave
    That is a tall order
    *BSD's foot is in the grave.

    I tap at my toy keyboard
    and whistle a happy tune
    but keeping happy's so hard,
    *BSD died too soon.

    Each day I wake and softly sob
    Nightfall finds me crying
    Not only am I a zit faced slob
    but *BSD is dying.
  57. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by LarsG · · Score: 2

    Additionally, it is very possible to accelerate SSL in hardware. In fact, the Sun project page [sun.com] itself talks about integrating ECC and SSL support into a hardware accellerator.

    And there are lots of companies that sell stand-alone SSL accellerators.

    --
    If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
  58. License? by rweir · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is it under a 4-clause or 3-clause BSD license? OpenSSL is _still_ under the 4-clause license, with the `obnoxious advertising clause' which says that you have to mention the developers in all advertising materials.
    Not such a big deal, you might say, but there are two big problems with this: 1) It's incompatible with GNU GPL, so no straight GPL software can use OpenSSL, and 2) it causes huge practical problems.

    Theses issues are a big problems for Debian, in particular.

    1. Re:License? by Arandir · · Score: 1

      You could of course take the position that an application that dynamically links to a shared libary is not a derivative of that library. Problem solved. Even if RMS doesn't believe it, you can and place a disclaimer in your license saying so.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    2. Re:License? by rweir · · Score: 1

      Of course, this is something that quite a few people have done (including, amongst many others exim). However, you have to get permission from every single person who has contributed to the project, which is a huge hassle. For example, Mozilla is still trying to find everyone who has contributed to it, so they can switch to a triple MPL/GPL/LGPL license.

    3. Re:License? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      is it even a bsd-style licence? iirc even the four-clause licence allowed sublicencing of derivatives; openssl obnoxiously prohibits that explicitly.

    4. Re:License? by Arandir · · Score: 1

      That's only if you want to change the license. You don't need anyone's permission to hold a valid interpretation of copyright law that happens to be different from the FSF's valid interpretation of copyright law.

      Until a court rules that dynamic runtime linkage through a public API does or does not constitute derivation, the matter is up in the air.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    5. Re:License? by rweir · · Score: 1

      That's true. I guess I'm just saying that if you want to be sure, be explicit.

    6. Re:License? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GPL is the most obnoxious licensing scheme ever known.

    7. Re:License? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > 1) It's incompatible with GNU GPL

      No, it's actually the other way around, the GNU GPL is incompatible with this license.

  59. I'm really unclear what Sun is 'gifting' here... by rthille · · Score: 2

    Elliptic Curve Encription isn't 'owned' by Sun. Apple owns some pattent related to it that they got from NeXT (search for Richard Crandall). And it was invented by someone else entirely (see comments above).

    --
    Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
  60. Re:Why don't they release a OPENSSL patch for Coba by backtick · · Score: 2

    Let me think... Um, NO.

    But I'm also not necessarily representative of most COBALT users. People who CAN build from source are generally not the target audience of the machine. They BOUGHT a Cobalt server as an appliance, which is what SUN markets it as. SUN says not to ever touch the CLI, as "The GUI does everything you need".

    People buy a Cobalt from a big name vendor so they get the stability and resource-friendliness of Linux with (theoretically) the SUPPORT (in terms of patches and making the software easy to use and documentation) of a big name vendor.

    So that's the problem.

    (I love trolls who are such wizards about all this, but still post anonymously)

  61. Re:Bush's advisor present, official government sup by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And likely they can crack everything else that's widely used.

    The important part is, some random ass out in the streets won't be able to crack it. :p

  62. sun labs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
    Sun has a pretty good site with some informative documentation and a link to OpenSSL's cipher downloads
    1. http://research.sun.com/projects/crypto/
  63. Re:It's not really that surprising OT by Suppafly · · Score: 1

    Like to make stuff? ReadyMade magazine [readymademag.com] is like Martha Stewart meets Wired.

    I dig readymade magazine.. are you affiliated with them or just advertising because its a cool magazine?

  64. encryption by sedimentary_rock · · Score: 1

    Does anybody know of a secure surfing service that the government doesn't have a back door key to? IE SSL encryption is definitely out, and I'm not so sure about anonymizer.com, either.

  65. Merkle invented public-key cryptography (too) by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Informative

    Whitfield Diffie is Sun's chief security officer, and co-invented public-key cryptography.

    Actually, Ralph Merkle invented public-key cryptography (too). Merkle's article was SUBMITTED first, though the Diffie-Hellman article was PUBLISHED first while Merkle's was still going through the review process.

    Not to disparage any of 'em. Merkle and Diffie & Hellman both invented it separately.

    And for you people who follow Nanotech and/or Cryonics, yes it's THAT Ralph Merkle (who didn't invent either cryonics or nanotech, though he does much great work to advance them).

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Merkle invented public-key cryptography (too) by mseeger · · Score: 1
      >>Whitfield Diffie is Sun's chief security officer, and co-invented public-key cryptography.

      >Actually, Ralph Merkle invented public-key cryptography (too). Merkle's article was SUBMITTED first, though the Diffie-Hellman article was PUBLISHED first while Merkle's was still going through the review process.

      As far as i know, neither of them was the first. The first was some british scientist paid by the british army. So he wasn't allowed to publish it. If anyone is interested in names and dates, i can look it up.

      Yours, Martin

  66. Re: algorithms vs. applications by plcurechax · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Tom,

    Your library is nice, it is portable C with tons of algorithms implemented. Test vectors. Most algorithms even have decently optimized implementations which is a plus.

    But you lack protocols which are necessary to securely implement applications.

    Using 3DES or AES is stupid if the application developer uses ECB (Electronic Code Book) mode of operation because it's faster and simpler. The application developer doesn't know that you need a HMAC to ensure intergity. What about replay attacks? Cut-and-paste attack?

    I don't think you even have secure message padding for RSA implementation.

    You have an interesting library of algorithms, but its is AFAIK lacking the "glue" to make it more useful than OpenSSL (which is ported and tested on many platforms, and heavily optimized assembly).

    So to develop secure applications I will continue to use OpenSSL rather than LibTomCrypt. It is less work for me, simple as that. If you expand your work, that will end my complaints, and we'll both be happy.

    Peace.

  67. Re: benchmarks by plcurechax · · Score: 1

    Look at Crypto++ benchmarks for a concrete example on a desktop machine (32-bit >>100 MHz x86 processor).

    I do not have any benchmarks for low end processors. Sorry.

  68. Re: algorithms vs. applications by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well I agree I lack protocols support but that isn't to say I lack the basic algorithms. I have chaining mode wrappers [OFB,CFB,CTR,CFB] for the ciphers, etc..

    In fact unlike the CryptLib and OpenSSL design my library is fully modular which means the OFB code for instance is not tied to one cipher. If you examine CryptLib [and from what I have seen of OpenSSL] they have implemented one OFB [etc] routine per cipher....

    I agree though that protocol support is a good idea but thats not a be-all either.

    Most protocols don't fully specify your PRNG/RNG source or how you should lock memory, store things on disk, etc...

    In otherwords you can comply with say PKCS #1 and still have an insecure application.

    Also unlike OpenSSL my library builds out of the box on virtually every GCC platform without configuration or patching. It even works on my Gameboy Advanced without changes!!!

    In the long run I agree. I do plan on adding things like PKCS #1, P1363, etc... but in the short term I am more interested in getting mature, well documented primitives.

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  69. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    sorry jackass, its an openbsd project. They get the credits.

  70. Could I offer a guess? by chanio · · Score: 0

    Why not becoming a good Assembler hacker?
    Later, you could have students, and more fun.
    (just guessing)
    Hope it helps :)

    --
    Rwe obliged 2 save our future by choosing:O3 hole-greenhouse effect instead of accepting everydays gossip-nonsense chat?
  71. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by Arandir · · Score: 1

    Not to mention one of the real unixes as open source would be neat.

    FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Darwin, ...

    Yes, they're reall unices. They may not be able to use the trade mark, but they're a lot more UNIX than many an official UNIX.

    --
    A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
  72. Burning Cell Phone! by yerricde · · Score: 2
    We drink Ritalin®!

    I think a 16 MHz ARM processor would only be in a "high end" smart phone, or a PDA and not your mass market average cell phone.

    What would a "mass market average cell phone" need with fast public-key encryption? Can't it just authenticate with the cell tower, grab a symmetric key, and then just encrypt voice with AES[1] based on that, possibly grabbing new symmetric keys during non-talk time? Wouldn't the more advanced "Burning Cell Phones" that run apps other than voice and simple games be essentially PDAs with a fast processor anyway?

    Think 8 or 16 bit, less than 12 MHz on average.

    So you're talking half the power of a GBA. (The GBA is 32-bit with a 16-bit data bus, clocked at 16 MHz.) How does RSA computation scale with respect to keylength?

    [1] Yes, AES been theoretically attacked down to 96-bit, but 96-bit is still considered quite "strong" for symmetric encryption. It has taken nearly four years, and one of the world's biggest clusters still hasn't broken a 64-bit key.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
  73. Re:It's not really that surprising OT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not directly affiliated with them, but my girlfriend worked as an intern for them. :-)

  74. Three types of elliptic curves by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is a saying that in cryptography, there are three types of elliptic curves: the insecure ones, the inefficient ones, and those that have been patented by Certicom.

    I wonder which curves can be used with the code offered by Sun.

  75. Taniyama-Shimura conjecture by Epeeist · · Score: 2

    I didn't think it was a conjecture anymore since Andrew Wiles proved it.

  76. Re:Why is *Sun* getting the nod for this technolog by TeddyR · · Score: 1

    Wondering if its not because they "invented" it, but maybe because they hold the IP license for an implementatuin that they decided to allow OpenSSL to use under a free license..

    --

    --
    Time is on my side
  77. James Ellis and the CESG by Draoi · · Score: 2
    It was invented way before either Diffie/Hellman/Merkle, as you said.

    Back in the '60s, it had been invented at GCHQ by James Ellis for use by the British Secret Service. Unfortunately, due to the Official Secrets Act, Ellis was forbidden to publish or discuss his discovery.

    The organisation that Ellis worked for, CESG, are on-line - you can check out their site here.

    Here's a link to a page explaining their input into Public Key Crypto.

    In 1973, inspired by the pioneering work of James Ellis a few years earlier, Cliff Cocks of CESG invented the first practical method for what we now call public key cryptography (PKC). The technology was subsequently discovered independently and developed into RSA; it was not until 1997 that it was publicly revealed that CESG had got there first!
    I'd first heard about Ellis' work in Simon Singh's book, The Code Book. James Ellis seemed to be a very quiet, modest person. It's a shame that his name isn't to the forefront when we think of Public-Key crypto. Credit where it's due ....
    --
    Alison

    "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein

    1. Re:James Ellis and the CESG by Draoi · · Score: 2

      Also found this excellent article on Wired, going over the whole Ellis/CESG thing, including an intriguing meeting between Diffie and Ellis back in the '80s ...

      --
      Alison

      "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein

  78. Re: algorithms vs. applications by plcurechax · · Score: 1

    I certainly agree with most of what you say.

    If you want more developers to use your library, you need to make it easier for them to use libtomcrypt in a secure fashion.

    That includes secure protocols (network, storage), consistant access to cryptographically strong PRNG/RNG, etc.

    Standard protocols increase the usefullness because developers can use them to interact with other (often already existing) applications.

    When you add these additional features I think you will then see an increase in interest in libtomcrypt.

  79. Re: algorithms vs. applications by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

    The problem you are falling into is what I call the "magic button" thoerem. It states (falsely) that some magic button must exist that solves all problems.

    Likewise for a crypto library there is no

    int magic_button(pt, ct, key)

    function since each system, os, cryptosystem is unique.

    My library is not designed to solve just one problem. Its a well organized set of primitives and support routines that can be used.

    Quite frankly if you're not smart enough to take primitives and make your own system that is secure you're in the wrong business.

    That being said I have nothing against standards complaince. I want to add PKCS #1 support for instance, but even when I have PKCS #1 merged in libtomcrypt won't provide "magic button" support.

    For instance, Wayne Scott [of bitkeepers.com] has recently tested libtomcrypt on 18 different platforms/os combos. With exception to a few problems [os'es without RNG's] the library worked statically [e.g. anywhere where an RNG is not needed] flawlessly

    This follows my train of thought. You take my lib, add your system specific stuff and get a cryptosystem in return.

    If I narrowed the system to say support "win32 magic buttons" I would instantly lose all my portableness

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  80. When you're right, you're right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I'm sorry about the +1 Funny moderation I gave you, but I thought it'd be funnier than a +1 Informative :-)

  81. Re:Wow that's amazing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot is not the "Church of the All-Conquering Triumphant GPL". Sorry.

  82. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Everyone knows about BSD's failure and imminent demise.


    If everyone knows, why do you feel the need to post the same anti-BSD rant all the time? Presumably if *BSD is "dead", than one eulogy would be enough.

    The failure of BSD culminated in the resignation of Jordan Hubbard and Michael Smith from the FreeBSD core team.


    Don't know about Michael Smith's contributions to FreeBSD(there are plenty more), but Jordan Hubbard has served mainly as a spokesman, not a developer for the core OS. Though his opinions were quite respected, his code contributions dwindled off long before he left the Core group (I'm not even sure that he's always been in Core up to now). A number of prominent developers have come and gone, but work continues on 5.0 and beyond. Strange how you were insisting that BSD was dead long before these two people left core. A number of months have passed since these last two resignations, and we're all still waiting for BSD to die.

    Don't believe their hype - BSD's development model has significantly impaired its progress.


    Hmmm, what do you call posting the same rant 100 times over? For that matter, what do you call Linux?

    Any achievements that BSD managed to make were nullified by the BSD license, which allows corporations and coders alike to reap profits without reciprocating the goodwill of open-source. Fortunately, Linux is not prone to this exploitation, as it is licensed under the GPL.

    So, is this a religious war over open source licensing, or did FreeBSD-core not like your shitty patches? Going by the FUD and rather obscure purple prose that you've been posting, I doubt you even know how to use a compiler. Speaking of "achievements", what are you accomplishing if your lengthy, insightful posts are routinely modded down? The funny thing is that XFree86, a project with a BSD-style licensing scheme, a product with a release cycle almost as slow as that ever-so-popular GNU HURD project, is software that few GNU/Linux users could do without. Odd too how FreeBSD developers had to jump on Linux developers for grabbing huge bits of BSD network stack code without giving credit where it was due. Gosh, it's just so terrible that Linux can get away with stealing BSD-licensed code! Apart from those two faced people who routinely bite the hand that feeds them, cross pollination between the various projects ought to be encouraged, and the BSD license is better for that sort of thing than the exceedingly political GNU scheme. It's also nice to know that those tyranical core BSD developers don't have to deal with a 100 pound gorilla like Redhat asserting its authority whenever it chooses.

    I think what all this really boils down to is ideology: an open-ended debate over what "free" means versus "if you don't accept my definition of freedom, I'll bludgeon you to death". If your "arguments" had any merit in a free market place of ideas, you wouldn't need to repeat them much less shout them repeatedly. People are going to continue to use *BSD code because you can't tell them what to do and they're likely to know better than you anyway. Better luck next time.

  83. Theo's take by Luke · · Score: 1

    Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:38:11 -0600
    From: Theo de Raadt
    To: misc@cvs.openbsd.org
    Subject: openssl

    some of you asked us what that ECC donation from Sun to OpenSSL means.

    so what does it mean?

    it means that OpenSSL is becoming a non-free software project, because
    the code from Sun contains licenses which invoke patent litigation;
    the licence on the new code basically builds a contract that says "if
    you use this code, you cannot sue Sun".

    In such a way, by means of the slippery slope, a free software project
    becomes not as free, and eventually, less and less free.

    Before anyone speaks up about and says "that restriction does not
    affect me". It does indirectly affect you. It means that some other
    vendor that uses this code, and subsequently ends up having a spat
    with Sun, ends up wasting money on legal efforts, and our entire
    society pays for that. My take on it, is that this is the way the
    legal industry ensures itself future work.

    On the other hand, here in OpenBSD land we will continue to strive to
    make our software more and more free. We've been squishing odd
    license terms which contain non-free restrictions throughout the
    source tree for about 2 years now.

    once again, i think it is time to fork OpenSSL. It's obviously run by
    a bunch of people who don't think through the legal implications of
    their actions. they should NOT have accepted that code without it
    being 100% free.

    This donation is not free code. Shame on you Sun, and double shame on
    you OpenSSL.

    1. Re:Theo's take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow...I can not believe such an open source contribution from a corporation can suddenly be twisted into such negative representation. Shame on youself, Theo. Does the logic you presented here make sense? Too much caffeine this morning perhaps? I hope you do not represent the average OpenBSD world. I think both OpenSSL and OpenBSD are doing a fine job in promoting free technologies for the society.

  84. Re:I'm really unclear what Sun is 'gifting' here.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What Sun has gifted to OpenSL is an implementation of the elliptic curve technology. In addition, this elliptic curve crypto library is well integrated into the existing OpenSSL source structure. Devlopers can down load from the openssl.org website today a working and free version of openssl which performs SSL/TLS secure handshakes using Elliptic Curve cipher suites.

  85. Re:Shouldn't this be placed under a different sect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >The Eliptic curve stuff was donated to OpenSSH team, not the OpenSSL group.
    >So dreaming about this in your ssl accelerated card of the future is a bit silly.

    Not silly at all. The Elliptic Curve stuff was indeed donated to OpenSSL. Having this technology in your ssl accelerated card is actually quite doable and will happen soon. The ssl accelerator cards today accelerate RSA. Soon they accelerate both elliptic curve crypto and RSA.

  86. Sun FAQ by dananderson · · Score: 2
    A FAQ by Sun is at
    http://research.sun.com/projects/crypto/FrequenlyA skedQuestions.html

    It includes technical information and answers questions some people had about licensing.