New MP3 Portables

An anonymous reader writes "This has been a busy week for the announcement of the latest crop of MP3 portables, probably just the start of many more with the holiday season only a few months away. First Samsung has announced their first jukebox model the Yepp YP-900, a 10GB unit using Toshiba's 1.8-inch drive for storage (same one as in the iPod) and eschewing FireWire (400 mbps) for a USB 2.0 (480 mbps) connection to transfer files. Mambo has also announced a jukebox player called the Digital Media-X PhotoBank Jukebox that is more akin to the Archos Jukebox Multimedia in that it can store and display photo files and possibly video files in the future. The Mambo holds 20GB of memory on a more common 2.5-inch hard drive, making it a heavier unit than the YP-900. Like the Yepp, the Mambo also goes with a USB 2.0 connection, heating up the competition between FireWire in digital music portables. The most interesting feature about the Yepp? It also has a MMC/SD card slot to facilitate trading tunes to and from other digital music players. (Take that SDMI). Finally SonicBlue has started shipping replacements for the Rio 600 and the Nike PSA[play 120 (made by Rio for gym workouts). Both the Rio S30S for the exercise-minded and the Rio S10 come with 64MB of memory and are upgradeable to 192MB through MMC flash cards. The S30S comes with an FM radio, while the base-optioned S10 is claiming 35 hours of running time on a single AA battery. Both players transfer files via USB 1.1's 12mbps port."

Comments

If it played OGG

[Anonymous Coward]

then it wouldn't be an "mp3" portable. So don't ask.

Re:If it played OGG

[Jucius Maximus]

"then it wouldn't be an "mp3" portable. So don't ask."

I think that the meaning of the word "mp3" has metamorphasised in its useage in online culture. "mp3" I think now means digital music suitable for online trading as opposed to audio compressed with mpeg layer 3 technology. That's really what it means. The average mp3 user knows nothing about fraunhofer. Heck, I still call my ogg + wma + few mp3 directory "mp3" because it fits the purpose.

all junk

[geek]

the ipod is the only mp3 player i have seen that made me go wow. everything else is a joke.

why is it no one has caught with apple yet? the ipod is great but there is room for improvement.

its like no one wishes to actually compete. they arent even copying apple like they usually do. they just aren't doing ANYTHING

Re:all junk

[Nogami_Saeko]

While the ipod is small, other units have a number of things going for them that the ipod doesn't.

The NJB3 for example, has built-in recording in either uncompressed or MP3 format, and a battery life that's in the ~22 hour range with two batteries loaded.

It also supports bi-directional file transfer, so you're not stuck just "syncing" your media when you connect it to the host computer.

It's bigger, yes - but it also utilizes industry-standard 2.5" drives (which go up to 60gb now). That offers a lot more room for expansion than the 1.8" drives which are used in the smaller devices.

Saying "everything else is a joke" is naive, and flamebait imho. What may work for you may not fill my needs - the opposite can be true as well, but let's be honest here.

Re:all junk

[timeOday]

Forget that, the last thing I want is a hard drive grinding itself to pieces in there, and they're too big and heavy. The model with almost 200 megs of solid-state memory is much more appealing.

Re:all junk

[PotPieMan]

It also supports bi-directional file transfer, so you're not stuck just "syncing" your media when you connect it to the host computer.

And how might you explain this?

Re:all junk

[Nogami_Saeko]

And how might you explain this [wired.com]?

I explain it like this (from your link BTW):

"And while the iPod has a built-in anti-piracy mechanism that prevents music files from being copied from one computer to another, it has no such protections for software."

It stores music and files seperately, and it won't let you transfer your music out, just other software.

Re:all junk

[timeOday]

iPods are still pretty new, of course the drives aren't failing yet. But every bump and vibration makes those ball-bearings just a bit less round...

True, I don't need to take my whole music collection jogging, in fact I'd rather arrange things on the PC before I leave and rarely touch the player's controls while I'm listening. At home and at work, I listen on the computer. I guess what's "best" all depends on the intended usage.

Ogg Vorbis support?

[AsnFkr]

Id buy one in a second that had Ogg Vorbis support. anyone know of a portable player that has flashable codecs support?

Re:Ogg Vorbis support?

[danamania]

Imagine a beowulf cluster of .ogg players.

a grrl & her server

Re:Ogg Vorbis support?

[SurfsUp]

Ogg Vorbis is not the greatest thing known to man.. let's face it.. and NO I AM NOT TROLLING...

Linux Zealots LOVE Ogg.. why? Because of the licensing.. not the compression rate..

No, you're not trolling, and I am Elvis.

Re:Ogg Vorbis support?

[rabidcow]

why not just make a portable audio player that allows you to flash any type of audio decoder into it.

I'm pretty sure most of them do that. The trouble is, you need to have the decoder written for the processor that the player uses and the right format to be flashed into rom. You can't just take the newest winamp plugin and have it work on anything.

Now, they could make it so you can mix and match which decoders you install instead of just throwing all the decoders in, but there's no benefit to that until they run out of flash rom.

Re:Ogg Vorbis support?

[PhoenixK7]

Last update in March 2002

Vorbis has come a _LONG_ way since then. To my ears, OGG files sound quite a bit better, especially when one is comparing lower bitrates.

Grab CDex. It includes LAME and OGG encoders, or check out the comparison on the ogg vorbis page. You may be surprised. Please dont quote articles that analyzed the codec before the developers even considered it to be a 1.0 release (I'm sure that even the Fraunhofer encoder was quite poor before its own "1.0" release).

Oh, btw, I'm not a linux/oss/fsf zealot. I prefer windows on my desktop and linux on my servers.

Re:Ogg Vorbis support?

[BrookHarty]

Actually, The license doesnt change a thing for me. I still encode with EAC, for both MP3 and Ogg Vorbis, And I still use winamp to play both. Ogg has silent breaks between tracks, higher quality (VBR) at a smaller size. There is no good reason for me to stick to mp3. And to top it off, Ogg vorbis streaming (icecast2) sounds 100% better at 56K streams.

I'm sure hardware players will be out that can play all mp3/mp3pro/wma/ogg files. I can wait for an upgradable version.

Re:Ogg Vorbis support?

[tempest303]

Wow, nice troll!

While there's no dedicated Ogg chip currently, there's proably very few, if any, dedicated WMA chips out there, so immediate availability of Ogg chips isn't a make-or-break for the format.

However, as for the parent post's link to that single, outdated study, I think I trust the huge, distributed test covered by c't over one guy, thanks.

Floating-point intesive? Try again. Take a careful look at the HUGE TEXT at the very top of the page.

And how about those format specifications, eh?

If anything's a joke here, it's your post. :P

Re:Ogg Vorbis support?

[tangent3]

Panos' audio test has been ridiculed all over the audio compression world. Look here for a review of some reviews, including the Panos' test (ekei.com)

Better tests to refer to would be ff123's test or the new C'T test (which IMHO isn't as good as ff123's). There were some complaints about C'T not using the optimal settings for Ogg Vorbis but it didn't method since Ogg Vorbis clearly won the test anyway.

Short range FM broadcast?

[belrick]

Do any of these come with short range FM broadcast for easy coupling to your car stereo?

Re:Short range FM broadcast?

[ncc74656]

I've found the FM broadcast solutions for getting sound into your car stereo are very bad. I've tried a couple of low-end (~$20) solutions, such as the "SoundFeeder" or whatever, and have always ended up throwing them away.

I snagged an iRock 300W to feed audio from my Rio Volt into my truck's stereo. My only (minor) complaint is that it'll only run off of battery power, but that's solved with the use of NiMH or rechargeable-alkaline AAAs. As long as you pick an empty frequency for it, you're not going to hear static until you crank the volume up to near-ear-splitting levels.

I personally only care about sub $100 market

[drinkypoo]

I try not to buy "doodads" which cost more than $100. This includes but is not limited to console video game systems, PC peripherals, portable audio devices, and the like. It does not include complete systems.

I bought the GF2MX when it hit $90 and a GF3Ti200 when it hit $90. I bought my (older) 11 second buffering sony car discman when those hit $90. (It gets like 80 hours play on a pair of AAs, too, and works flawlessly to this day. Very nice.) So any MP3 player I'm going to buy is going to cost less than a hundred bucks.

I also don't want a device where the media costs more than the machine, which limits my choices to a pretty narrow range. Lik-Sang doesn't even seem to be loading, but that's where I'd ordinarily look for a device like that.

Does anyone know of a very thin CDRW/CDR/CD player which does VBRE MP3s and costs less than $100 which doesn't simply fall apart within a week of the warranty's end?

Re:I personally only care about sub $100 market

[TellarHK]

I'm poor.

I'm cheap.

But I'm also a geek that likes toys, so I agree with the statement that the Sub-100 market is a good point to focus on. However, stepping up $50, I was able to get probably the best deal on a gadget that I've seen in years. I picked up an iPaq 3135 for $150. Decent mp3/wma player, and works nicely with CF media. I wish there were more deals like that around.

Re:I personally only care about sub $100 market

[wackybrit]

Your logic is flawed.

If you deliberate limit yourself to things that are two years behind current technology, then advancements will come along for you just as fast as for everyone else.. but just two years behind.

Not everyone is on the 'front line'. A lot of us haven't even played Gran Turismo 3 or Halo, and probably won't bother for a year or two. I'd love to get Gran Turismo 3, but I can't be assed to shell out for a Playstation 2 when I have a PC.

Re:I personally only care about sub $100 market

[Chris Canfield]

I try not to buy "doodads" which cost more than $100. This includes but is not limited to console video game systems, PC peripherals, portable audio devices, and the like. It does not include complete systems.

Obviously, then, you don't buy console video game systems. Or VCR's, Televisions, Recievers, Speakers, Kensington trackballs, Amps, Component CD players, Diamond rings, or many other of life's pleasures.

Of course, you do not define "doodad," which I can only assume you mean to be those things in life which you don't find important enough to spend 100 dollars on.

But for many people, music is an integral part of living. It is a flow of culture, it is a tribal link to our heritage, it is an expression of the rage, love, hate, passion, suffering, reflection and otherwise that we feel inside. Some people dance, some people paint, some people write, and some people fill themselves with music to soothe the very human urge to burn the world down and build it back up again.

For those, a week's pay is money well spent to be filled with an adequate supply of music. 10 gigs isn't all the music they could want: an artist would never be satisfied by just the Gugenheim in LA. But 6.9 days worth of music (several concerts or one burning man) is a much better start than a paultry hour long CD.

Now, why Archos doesn't sell additional drives for their players, or larger 3.5 based players, is anyone's guess. They probably don't have more startup funds for new R and D. But either way, Jukebox players have done a great service to many, many music lovers. You can tell the difference between MP3's and CD's on nice, 5.1 surround systems. On good seinheiser headphones, they sound identical. And if what you are replaying is a stream of old tango records from the 1930's, you might as well just relax and enjoy. Archos and the rest have allowed us to get enough music to satisfy our beasts for a little while.

I'm glad the original poster knows what he / she wants in a player, but they seemed to echo a sentiment all too popular today: music is fluff, and isn't worth spending money on. You can spend more than 100 to hear Danny Patatuchi play base live in concert (35 per ticket for three people). You can also spend 5 dollars to be enveloped in a local jazz trio at a club near your house. If music isn't worth spending money on, then neither will happen. And sadly, one of the few pure expressions of culture will be completely lost to corporatism.

Re:I personally only care about sub $100 market

[drinkypoo]

I consider "doodad" to be synonymous with "gadget". A television, VCR, or receiver is an "appliance". Then again I only paid $140 for my open box Sony $250 retail VCR, and $120 for my Apex DVD player, so I'm narrowing in on the $100 mark there, too. For that matter, I got a 25" Sony Trinitron studio monitor for $35 at the flea market, so nyeah.

If I'm in a situation where I need an mp3 player as opposed to some other solution, I have certain criteria which must be met. One, it must be portable. This further means that it must be durable (or disposable), light in weight, and small in size. Otherwise, it's not really portable, now is it? Also, we're never going to have an ideal audio experience on the go, so we'll need decent headphones but not fantastic ones; Mostly they need to stay on my head. If I want a complete concert experience I'll need some kind of extensive sound system tuned to a room. Headphones don't cut it because they're not directional enough.

A CD-based mp3 player (which buffers the MP3 data and not the decompressed audio) is ideal because CD media is cheap and sizable. Sure a jukebox player gives you more online storage but you can hold six albums on one CD at a good bitrate. Also, they're cheap as hell (around $100, often less now) so if you destroy one or it gets stolen you're not out too much money.

Re:I personally only care about sub $100 market

[Chris Canfield]

I consider "doodad" to be synonymous with "gadget". A television, VCR, or receiver is an "appliance".

You're still not defining your terms. Is it a gadget because it is small? Portable? Is a playstation a gadget and a VCR an appliance because the playstation hasn't reached cultural acceptability? Is a receiver an appliance because it is so expensive, but an MP3 appliance a gadget because it can be had for cheap?

If you need something that is durable, a CD MP3 player will never satisfy you. For things like mountain biking, only flash-based MP3 players will do. They are also by far the lightest and smallest of the players.

AIWA pipephones are still available though getting rare, and that should cover any audio quality you need in a portable.

>>If I want a complete concert experience I'll need some kind of extensive sound system tuned to a room. Headphones don't cut it because they're not directional enough>A CD-based mp3 player (which buffers the MP3 data and not the decompressed audio) is ideal because CD media is cheap and sizable. Sure a jukebox player gives you more online storage but you can hold six albums on one CD at a good bitrate. Also, they're cheap as hell (around $100, often less now) so if you destroy one or it gets stolen you're not out too much money.

CD media is cheap, but not having media is cheaper and easier. Instead of remembering to burn CD's of the MP3's on your hard drive, you can rip directly to your MP3 player and cut out the middle man (and the burning man). At 200 dollars, you only need to replace one cheap CD MP3 player to equal the cost. And all you have to carry around is the player, not the player and 50 burned CD's.

To each his own. I usually optimize for money too... you should see the guts of my computer. But when it comes to audio, I can't help but optimize for available size.

Your mileage may vary.

Pretty cool offerings

[Noose For A Neck]

Still not as cool as the Mp3 Player in my car. It even supports .ogg!

Seriously, when are all these big name vendors going to start using a truely free format? I can't imagine that the likes of Sharp or Sony want to be beholden to some german company in a case of patent infringement.

Re:Pretty cool offerings

[mlong]

Still not as cool as the Mp3 Player in my car [carplayer.com]. It even supports .ogg!

Personally I prefer the PhatNoise PhatBox. Supports MP3, FLAC, Windows Media, Audible, and soon to support Ogg (available in alpha test now). It comes in either 20 GB or 40 GB carts and interfaces with a bunch of head units. Also the Kenwood Audio Keg is the same thing (licensed PhatNoise). It uses 10 GB carts and works only with Kenwood Headunits (I got an Audio Keg myself). There are a lot of cool features including m3u playlists and text-to-speech technology to announce the name of each playlist.

Re:Pretty cool offerings

[kaisyain]

Sharp and Sony don't care. They license IP all the time. They don't care about a "free" format. They care about market penetration.

Editors: Please Edit!

[TheFrood]

How about paring down the description of the device to a few sentences, like you usually do? You really don't need all the details on the front page.

TheFrood

Some important facts about the new Rio players

[jrs]

Looking at www.sonicblue.com and saw some more info on the players. Some facts that might interest a few.

Supports Microsoft Windows Media digital rights management

Upgradeable to future music formats

http://www.sonicblue.com/audio/rio/s30s.asp

What's with the attitude?

[brunes69]

The Yepp player uses the same drive as the iPod, so it could have exactly the same form factor and weight (specs weren't released, so this si speculation), and has the same capacity. And it transfers with USB 2.0, which is both faster than the iPod's FireWire, and is also more commonly available on the PC platform. So why is this "junk"? If anything its good competition.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[Zeinfeld]

So why is this "junk"? If anything its good competition.

Probably because the guy is an apple-head and has drunk the kool-aide. It is amazing how people will react to something they feel threatens them. Like all the folk who will swear blind that CD sound is grossly inferior to vinyl...

What I would like is a device that combined a number of features of the devices listed. I want the mmc/sd slot, I want the microphone, I wanth the 1.8" drive.

I would also like the thing to have a PDA sized display. Perhaps what I really want is a pda with a 10Gb hard drive... Wonder If I could add one to my Zaurus...

The mmc/sd format is really cute. The chips are the size of a quarter. I have seen a 512Gb chip which OK costs $350 at the moment but will soon be on sale in costco for $50. A couple of those would last me quite a while.

The mmc/sd format is small enough that the chip and player could easily be built into a pair of headphones. If Bose would make something like that I would buy it in an instant...

Re:What's with the attitude?

[great throwdini]

And it transfers with USB 2.0, which is both faster than the iPod's FireWire, and is also more commonly available on the PC platform.

I don't want to throw a monkeywrench in here, but I might as well try:

How is USB 2.0 support more ubiquitous for x86 in terms of OS-level support? I was under the impression that it's still being tweaked for Linux (but it's there) and that Windows support was confined to Windows 2000 and XP. At least, that's the impression I get from the Microsoft KB. For other x86 operating systems, I have no clue.

Somehow, I suspect FireWire support is (potentially) a bit more common, though it does require additional hardware for most x86 PCs. Beat me with a stick, but I seem to recall there being FireWire support in the OS for earlier versions of Windows, so at least it's an option (where it isn't with USB 2.0).

I also suffer from the delusion that USB 2.0 requires USB 2.0 hardware ports for full transfer rates. I would think most consumers are still stuck with USB 1.1 interfaces and so, with sub-optimal transfers relative to FireWire.

So, how is it more commonly available on the PC platform again?

Re:What's with the attitude?

[dhovis]

Um...

The Yepp isn't coming out until Feb/March, so it is way behind the iPod in that respect. By the time it comes out, Apple will have had the 10GB iPod on the market for a year. I mean come on, "Oh yeah, well wait 6 months...I'm going to get an MP3 player with the same capacity as your iPod and a slightly faster connection speed for the same price you paid today! Oh, yeah, the interface will probably suck too."

Besides which USB 2.0 isn't really faster than Firewire, and either one is faster than that 1.8" HD can handle anyway. The real advantage to Firewire is that it provides power too, so you can charge and sync your iPod by only plugging in one cable.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[xmnemonic]

"If Bose would make something like that I would buy it in an instant..."

Apparently, you have never read a critical review of any Bose audio products.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[be-fan]

1) The 80 mpbs "advantage" USB 2.0 has is far outweighed by Firewire's architectural superiority.

B) I'd bet that, since USB 2.0 is so new, there are more Firewire ports out there. Most Sony machines have em, as do Dell multimedia units (including my Inspiron 8200, which doesn't have USB), and some others.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[maggard]

I don't own either, and am not likely likely to.

However you really should look up the current specs. The latest model iPods do offer more then the Yepp, FireWire and USB 2.0 are about tied for market penetraton (their speeds are essentially identical right now though FireWire is going faster RSN), and most agree that the iPod interface & software integration are the best on the market.

While everyone is welcome to choose whatever fits their needs best the iPod is a remarkably good value bang-for-the-buck, particularly in the latest revisions. Comparing iPod Rev. A specs with the latest Yepp isn't particularly valid unless price is also listed (iPods have gotten cheaper quite quickly.)

Re:What's with the attitude?

[be-fan]

Oh, yeah, the interface will probably suck too."
>>>>>>>>>>
The Apple interface sucks. Give me an ftp port and leave me alone. Even better, let me mount it as an NFS share!

Re:What's with the attitude?

[benh57]

And it transfers with USB 2.0, which is both faster than the iPod's FireWire..

USB 2 is not faster than firewire in the real world. USB 2's 480 is max *burst* transfer rate, while FireWire's 400 is *sustained*. All benchmarks of USB2 vs. FireWire confirm this.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[Xenex]

"And it transfers with USB 2.0, which is both faster than the iPod's FireWire..."

Yes, because the difference between 400Mb/s and 480Mb/s really matter when connecting an external hard disk. It's 2002. Hard disks do not run at 480Mb/s.

Besides, the "USB2 is faster then FireWire" talk is just Intel's marketing; USB2 is 480Mb/s peak, where FireWire is 400Mb/s sustained.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[g4dget]

I have both FireWire and USB2 on several machines; FireWire's architectural superiority makes no difference in practice. If Apple also supported USB2, I'd switch over to USB2 devices completely.

And a big advantage of USB2 is that it also works on USB1 ports--slower, but it works, and just about every computer has USB1.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[troc]

Firewire is 400mbps SUSTAINED between devices without needing a host controller. USB 2.0 is 480 mbps *MAXIMUM* throughput. Bearing in mind that everything a usb device does goes through the controller, you actually get a maximum of 240 in each direction, assuming there's nothing else on the usb chain. If there is then you'll get even less.

I am sure that in a lab you can get usb 2.0 to go faster than firewire but in reality there is no way it will.

I have both and I have usb 2.0 and firewire external drives and the firewire one smokes the usb one (they are both 7200 rpm ibm drives) even when the drive is the only thing on the usb chain.....

if I add a mouse it gets comical.

Troc

Re:What's with the attitude?

[laymil]

actually, you're mistaken. you could use private ips and set it up as a completely seperate network with your computer, since firewire can act as a ip interface. thx. next pls?

Re:What's with the attitude?

[mbourgon]

That price should be mentioned in large print.

"Samsung has priced the 10GB Yepp YP-900 at $399 and expects to ship the unit by next February/March."

So, for the same price as the iPod, you could buy a knockoff. Huh?

Re:What's with the attitude?

[2nd Post!]

The iPod is a hard drive. Once hooked up to a computer using Firewire, you *can* mount it as an NFS share, you can ftp to it.

You mean you want an ftp port *on* the iPod itself?

The question still remains then as to what physical transport you would use... and I hazard Firewire is still the best choice for both power, support, and data throughput, which puts you back to square one.

Plug the iPod into a computer with a Firewire port and let it mount as a harddrive. What, you want to plug the iPod into a computer with the Firewire port and then access it as an FTP share?

I'm not sure I see the logic in that.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[ncc74656]

And it transfers with USB 2.0, which is both faster than the iPod's FireWire, and is also more commonly available on the PC platform.

Neither are particularly common, except on the newest machines. FWIW, I had a FireWire hard drive and a FireWire webcam before I had anything USB...and the newest Mac I own (the only Mac I own, actually) is a Quadra 610, so that can't be the reason. As for the assertion that USB 2.0 is faster than FireWire, do you have any proof? On paper, USB 2.0 is supposed to be faster. Given the way USB works (CPU controls everything) vs. the way FireWire works (more intelligence in the controller), though, I doubt that USB 2.0 ever comes close to its stated maximum transfer speed.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[be-fan]

I think I wasn't paying attention. Entirely unconcious.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[be-fan]

A bus almost never gets its peak throughput. What percentage of that peak throughput the bus attains is determined by its architecture. Firewire puts a lot more emphasis on "smart" hardware, which reduces the load on the host and allows it to attain higher throughputs.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[Planesdragon]

And it transfers with USB 2.0, which is both faster than the iPod's FireWire, and is also more commonly available on the PC platform.

USB 2.0 is spec'd at peak transfer rate. Firewire, as its proponents will no doubt exclaim, has a significantly higher sustained rate; plus it carries power. (AFAIK, USB 2.0 doesn't--at least, not to the degree that Firewire does.)

So why is this "junk"? If anything its good competition.

Exactly.

Re:What's with the attitude?

[Planesdragon]

Like all the folk who will swear blind that CD sound is grossly inferior to vinyl...

It is. Assuming, of course, that your analog vinyl equipment (including speakers) are state-of-the-art high-quality.

And even then you'll hardly hear the difference...

But it is there. Just like there's a difference between a 4 megapixel camera and a 35 mm; sure, at 3x5 you'll never notice the differnece (ignoring lens differences for the moment), but it's still there.

SATA External?

[GigsVT]

Once SATA gets more of a foothold... I don't see what would be stopping the use of SATA to replace all these other options, when speed is of importance, considering it is more than three times faster than USB2.0 or Firewire.

Cable length spec is 1 meter, hot swap.... And the interface is basically free. Imagine that the device already uses a SATA hard disk internally, you just pop the disk out and plug it in to your computer, that way the external device doesn't have to have electronics to support any connections to a host.

Power connections may need some tweaking, I'm not sure how that would be handled. On a side note, MS says about SATA hot swap:

When does Microsoft plan to support true "hot plug" for Serial ATA devices?
The Microsoft plan of record is to provide support in the next version of the Windows operating system.

http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/tech/storage/seri al ATA_FAQ.asp

This seems like a reasonable future direction for this to go in. It won't happen right away, but it almost seems inevitable now that SATA is finally snowballing.

Re:SATA External?

[brunes69]

Cable length spec is 1 meter??? Man that wouldn't even reach from the back of my case to my desk, and my case is under my desk. I can't see anything whose cable length is that limited take off for external devices.

Re:SATA External?

[Chirs]

How about running it out the *front* of the computer case?

Take your player, stick it on top of/in front of the case, plug it in, and you can download three times faster than usb2/firewire. I think the slightly smaller range would be worth it.

Dont Forget MiniDisc

[Thabenksta]

Check out the new MiniDisc Recorders. They have the new NetMD technology, that lets you drag and drop mp3's to an MD at 32x real-time. And MDLP lets you record up to 320 minutes in stereo on a $1.50 disc. They have a USB port built into the unit. The Sony MZ-n505 Model is only $135, now that's a damn good deal.

Re:Dont Forget MiniDisc

[MaxVlast]

I was getting ready to leave for a road trip and was transferring songs from my PowerBook to my iPod. At the same time, my friend was trying to move songs to his MiniDisc with NetMD. I'm not joking, in fifteen minutes I had transferred roughly 16GB of music and was sitting in the car and he, through struggle with crashing (the XP MD software) and the plain slowness of his USB connection got, I kid you not, one song transferred. Needless to say, the others of us going on the trip had a good laugh as he ran out of music about the time we left his street.

Amusingly, the road trip was to an Apple Store for the Jag event. He was looking very closely at the iPods on display. :-)

(True story.)

Re:Dont Forget MiniDisc

[BelDion]

Couple of points to add to this. Well, "couple" is mainly a gripe about the whole NetMD debacle.

First of all, if you're using OpenMG or the RealOne plugin, there's no way you're going to get anywhere near 32x transfer speeds. Sorry, not gonna happen. Maybe, maybe if you've got a good box and can recode the mp3s into atrac with a lot more speed, then maybe you'll hit 10x. Don't hold your breath however. However, if you use the Simple Burner with Nero DriveImage you can pick up some much more decent speeds overall; but it's much less drag and drop, playlist fiddling fun. But that's ok, at least with Simple Burner you can actually use the editing features of your MD (something which is unallowed when you upload with OMG or RO).

Oh, and to get 320 minutes on an 80 minute disc, you'll have to record in LP4; the lossiest setting, which works out to about 96ish kb/s, and that doesn't sound all that great (go ahead, compare a 96kb/s mp3 to a 192 kb/s one to see).

Course the LP quality is a pretty subjective problem; I can hardly hear the difference myself, though the OpenMG sucks no-matter who you are. None-the-less, I wish I had the $350CAD to buy an N505 + a remote (the American version of the 505 doesn't come with a remote), but alas, I suck :/ Arrr, poverty be a harsh mistress. Donations anyone? :)

Re:Dont Forget MiniDisc

[MaxVlast]

Nope. 5, 10, 20GB.

The real problems were with the instability of the XP software. Of course once he got it working, the USB slowness kicked in and he just ran out of time.

It's about time

[brunes69]

It's about time we got some decent USB 2.0 players to compete with the iPod. While the iPod is a nice player and all, I'm not prepared to fork over even more money for a firewiire card when I have 4 perfectly good USB 2.0 ports on my motherboard, which are faster. Plus, people with USB 1 can still use the player until they upgrade. With Apple hardware also supporting USB 2.0, it is a no-brainer choice over firewire in my opinion. This FM tuner on the Yepp is also a very nice feature, especially for switching over to catch the news or something.

Re:It's about time

[Xenex]

"I'm not prepared to fork over even more money for a firewiire card when I have 4 perfectly good USB 2.0 ports on my motherboard, which are faster."

As mentioned above: $18. When you spend $400 or more on a piece of hardware, an extra $20 is nothing. Well, unless you're being cheap.

480Mb/s peak versus 400Mb/s sustained. Your USB2 ports are not faster then FireWire. You can believe Intel's marketing if you'd like though; whatever you'd prefer.

"With Apple hardware also supporting USB 2.0..."

No Apple hardware ships with USB2 support.

Re:It's about time

[znu]

Intel is playing some serious games with the USB 2.0 specs. Real world tests show FireWire is significantly faster. There's enough of a difference to matter even with the relatively slow hard drives in MP3 players. FireWire also offers latency and bandwidth guarantees for time-sensitive transfers, has less CPU overhead, performs better with multiple simultaneous transfers, supports peer-to-peer connections, and provides much more power over the bus, allowing many more devices to be bus-powered. Basically, it's a vastly superior standard in just about every way. And a card costs under $20.

Re:It's about time

[2nd Post!]

You've also got to consider that Firewire vs USB2 is pointless when it's the hard drive that's the speed bottleneck.

My iPod only pushes 15mb/s, not the 50mb/s claimed Firewire limit.

Then there's the other thing: the Yepp solution is still 'vapor', insofar as it is still 5 months away from being in the channel. 5 months away from being a first generation $400 product.

The Apple iPod, in comparison, is a $400 *now* product, and it's 3rd generation now (1st gen 5gb, 2nd gen 10gb in same form factor, 3rd gen 10gb in slightly smaller form factor with a solid state scrollwheel), meaning it's got 2 generations of real world trials behind it.

Five months from now, will the Apple iPod be cheaper? Possibly. Will the Apple iPod offer more storage at the same price? Possibly. Will the Apple iPod offer more features (thanks to iSynch, iCal, etc)? Possibly. Will the Apple iPod offer more playback features (WMA, OGG, etc)? Possibly.

So you get *all* that for the price of an $18 Firewire card.

Whereas your USB2... well, that's 5 months from now. Lots of things can change in 5 months.

upgrades

[johnjones]

why not just make a portable audio player that allows you to flash any type of audio decoder into it. So when new versions/better formats come out, you just flash your player and you can play the new format.

they do apple use's a hardware MP3 decoder with a ARM7 much like the rio's so they could infact play windows media if they really wanted

you get upgardes via apple support infact I just downloaded a new firmware to allow it to act as a calander/phone book

Because then you wouldn't make money off of selling the next player when the old one isn't good enough any more?

this is of course true to an extent it is after all what the market will take most players claim that they are software upgrades and they fix bugs this way

regards

John Jones

Water-proof player

[Karpe]

What I wanted was a MP3 player that could be used under water. Those FM radios made for swimming have terrible tuning, specially when you dive a few inches (flip turn, for instance), and usually seek for another station when that happens. I understand the problems of doing a casette player for under water use (size, movable parts, water proof issues of openable containers), but a MP3 player seems perfect. That would be a sports friendly player.

Re:Water-proof player

[jeffehobbs]

But Aquaman, you cannot marry a woman without gills, you're from two different worlds!

~jeff

Re:Water-proof player

[MaxVlast]

Wow. Good God, man. I never thought of the idea. Good lord, if I could have my MP3s while I was swimming, I'd swim for hours each day and would be in the shape that I've always wanted. Wow.

Re:Water-proof player

[gvonk]

Kahlua Mudslide.

All over my monitor.

Kudos. /me gives imaginary mod points

Re:Water-proof player

[aaarrrgggh]

The easiest way to use something underwater is to go for a diving dry-bag system. There are ones that are waterproof to 40m with a mechanical fastener, and regularly have pre-sealed penetrations for headphones/remote controls/whatever.

Damned if I can find a good link now, though.

The problem with waterproofing things to make them actually submersible is that O-Rings are really required for a proper seal, and all penetrations have to be dealt with properly... it's a lot harder to change the batteries! Also, what constitutes "waterproof?" (For watches, 10m is "take it in the shower", 20m is "splash on the surface periodically," and 30m is something that you can actually take underwater... real diving watches are usually 200m.)

Rio 600? Say what?

[fm6]

Neither of these new Rios is a replacement for the Rio 600. That would be the Rio 800 or Rio 900. . All of these use the weird, proprietary memory-and-battery "backpacks", whereas the new Rios use standard batteries and flash cards.

I think there must be two distinct groups at SonicBlue designing MP3 players. One does fairly standard players, often sold under somebody else's label. The other grinds out these strange backpack players.

What the second group is smoking is one of the great mysteries of our time. The players and backpacks are filled with strange, inexplicable features. On the other hand, this series is one of the few that supports bookmarks, which are essential to us spoken word types.

true but...

[johnjones]

then again 7 or 8 years ago mention mp3 and people had not heard of that

ogg because its free means not having to pay people for their libs which means reduced costs and so reduced cost to consumer (the fact that large companys have already payed does not mean its not true)
AND
its what I think is right
we can have an opinion infact they are credited to us in the small print at the bottom of this page

if your writeing a music app that is fairly self contained and your part of a small company I would not put MP3 in it because of the law simple as that

regards

John Jones

Give me some ogg player

[Dacmot]

I've been looking (truly, quickly) at (MP3) players, CD players and stereo systems and I was hoping to see a few advertising OGG playback. So far I haven't been able to find any digital hardware equipment (not a computer) that would play ogg off-the-shelf.

If I'd find a reasonably priced player, preferably CD, that would play ogg I would buy it. I own a relatively small collection of music (~1GB) 80% of which is MP3 but I'm starting to rip my new CDs with ogg.

Anyone knows of CD players that read ogg files on CDs?

Disclaimer: I don't care about people saying "you stupid! just rip your CDs in MP3" because they don't get the point. I don't want to start a fanatic war on ogg vs. mp3 either because it misses the point too. I just want to listen to ogg files because I like it.

Don't waste your time...

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

Anyone who has spent 10 minutes with iTunes and an iPod will look at everything else and laugh. Any reasons why the new 20gig iPod does not SMOKE out everything else?

And don't talk to me about an FM radio. With 1000's of songs and playlists based on music style to ratings (ala iTunes) why the hell would I want to listen to a radio? Please, no replys unless you have USED an iPod... if you havn't, treat yourself and enjoy! Amazing design and usability WITH great construction (virtual wheel too! Woot!)

Re:Don't waste your time...

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

Yep, I stand corrected again. Forgot about stern. I was thinking horrible top-10 wash-rinse-repeat z100. but yeah, stern is good fresh content that's nice on a portable. I'm now looking at the iPod as missing a feature!

PS... got that Stern stuff on a server somewhere? ;)

Re:Don't waste your time...

[jarodss]

I had a mp3/cd player for the longest time, it rocked.

Then I got an iPod, it rocks more.

I now don't have to burn a new cd or cdrw to put the latest song or two or cd that I ripped into the mix. Now I just drag the songs over, a couple of seconds later I disconnect and go.

Try using an iPod for a couple of days, you'll see the difference.

Re:Don't waste your time...

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

20Gb on an iPod? Unbelievably frustrating!

LOL... I guess some people do have more music than me, I keep forgetting that. :)

ARM ADS, dedicated MP3 chips, and bus power

[yerricde]

Oh Apple, when will you do the right thing? The libraries for Ogg Vorbis decoding are released under the BSD license. They can be compiled via [either GCC or] ARM ADS and its free

GCC and the Tremor library (integer arithmetic Vorbis decoder) are free software, but ARM ADS software is hardly "free". It's proprietary and $6,000 per seat.

How hard is this for them? What I really think is the problem is that QuickTime and iTunes cannot deal with variable bit rate audio codecs, so playing them on Mac OS is a no-no.

Actually, the big problem is that the iPod player runs audio through a chip that takes MP3 audio on one pin and produces PCM audio on another. It's much harder to change hardware than software.

Oh, and USB2 connection? Sure you don't have to pay a buck to apple every time you sell a device, but the power has to be a separate plug.

Not necessarily. USB 2.0 devices can be bus-powered. Besides, you need batteries anyway for when the device is disconnected from the host computer.

hmm 2 ports

[johnjones]

why USB ?
because firewire you have to pay apple for every device you ship (unless your sony who apple love)

USB is a standard that is Open and backwards compatable and people love that because it works with all your old hardware

but it might have to have 2 ports one for power and one for USB which kind of sucks (although this has changed in USB 2 it depends on the power )
unlike the firewire that you can draw a decent amount of power from

regards

John Jones

Re:hmm 2 ports

[maggard]

why USB ? because firewire you have to pay apple for every device you ship (unless your sony who apple love)

Uh - wrong.

Firewire is free:

FireWire Implementation License (No Fee)

If, after evaluation, you would like to obtain a license to develop or distribute assemblies incorporating the FireWire Reference Platform or modifications, please download and print this Implementation License, complete according to the attached checklist and mail two original signed Implementation License forms to the Software Licensing address on the checklist. Your license will become effective when signed by Apple.

Re:hmm 2 ports

[norwoodites]

lets see USB is controlled by Intel, Firewire is controlled by IEEE, now which is more open, one or many.

Re:hmm 2 ports

[ncc74656]

why USB ? because firewire you have to pay apple for every device you ship (unless your sony who apple love)

You say that as if 25 per port will make or break FireWire...the manufacturer of a FireWire device probably pays more than that for the connector. (While it's probably not the least expensive source for manufacturer-quantity buying, the cheapest price I found at DigiKey for board-mountable FireWire connectors was $1.152 each for quantities >=100.)

USB is a standard that is Open and backwards compatable and people love that because it works with all your old hardware

...unless your old hardware isn't USB. I'm a little bit pissed that the notebook I recently bought has no serial or PS/2 ports...that means you have to fork over extra $$$ to plug in a keyboard, mouse, or serial device (like a modem or the HotSync cradle for my Palm III). Besides, the last time I checked, the FireWire drivers in Linux are as open-source as the rest of the kernel. (After loading the kernel from a floppy, I booted SuSE 8.something from a FireWire HD. That'd be a nice solution for moving your Linux setup between computers...the only thing missing is the ability to boot from a FireWire (or USB, for that matter) device, which is a matter of BIOS support.)

Listen buddy--

[gvonk]

I dunno about you, but I will find the player I want independent of bus interface and THEN, and only then, will I decide that I am not too cheap for

AN EIGHTEEN DOLLAR PART!!!


Sorry 'bout that.

ok

[johnjones]

ADS and SDT is what most people use because you can use MultICE and the libs are very good its what I presume the engineers are using

I didnt think that the chip they used was brain dead you live you learn (-;

I knew that USB2 could draw more current than USB1.1 is it really that much ?
(enough to power a drive and recharge the battery ? if so cool ;-)

regards

John Jones

Why no Compact Flash /Microdrive MP3 Players?

[Quantum Jim]

I don't understand why there are no popular Compact Flash-based or microdrive-based mp3 players?

Wouldn't a microdrive-based player be a *lot* smaller, weigh less and use less power - and thus be more versatile - than most of the other players with a capacity on the order of a gigabyte (and who wants more than 1GB - that's a heck of a lot of mp3s)? If 1,073,741,824 bytes isn't enough, just upgrade by putting a bigger drive in. If a miniature spinning disk is too unreliable, then just put a flash-based memory unit it. You could even plug in wireless card and play from a network!

Re:Why no Compact Flash /Microdrive MP3 Players?

[Kredal]

Thank you very much for the info and the tip. (: I just bought a NEX IIe (well, ordered.. they said it would ship on Sep 25, but I can wait!) and a 340 meg microdrive (not from them though, they wanted twice as much as anyone else!)

For anyone interested, I bought the microdrive at http://www.buymstar.com/detailsSto.asp?pid=901 for 105 bucks, and it includes a PC card adapter for my laptop. Joy of joys. (:

MP3 audiobooks?

[abischof]

Is there anywhere I can get popular audiobooks in mp3 format? I go to the gym every day, and it'd be handy to be able to load a book into an mp3-portable and listen to book while on the elliptical machines.

I hesitate to deal with audiobooks on CD, but only because I don't want to pay CD-prices for a book that I'll probably only "read" once. As a corollary, I have no problem with paying for an mp3-audiobook, just as long as its priced such that could still be affordable even if I only listen to it once through.

PS: Yes, I'd normally ask "where can I find books in Ogg format?", except that I know of no portable players that can play Oggs :(.

20gb of RAM?!

[Maskirovka]

The Mambo holds 20GB of memory

I'm confused. Does this mean I could potentially use this thing as an external ram disk (must be AC power only), or does mean that just mean that it might show up on ebay gutted and outfitted to hold 20 1gb DDR sticks?

I have an ipod

[asv108]

I am not a big Mac fan and I hate how when you post anything negative about any apple product on /., you are instantly modded down, but I am an I-pod owner. I don't even have a mac, but originally I got it working on windows with Xplay and now I can access my ipod through Linux with Xpod. I'm a firm believer in the superiority of the ipod, the design, the interface, and especially the service. Last week after owning my ipod for 9 months, it finally died. I figured I would call apple and see what I could do. Instead of having to go through any hassle, Apple was really smooth.

• Apple overnights me a box
• I stick ipod in box
• I call to have the shipping company pick up box
• Apple sends me a brand new ipod, arrives 2 days later

That's what I call service, most of the other players I've seen have a very limited warranty and the companies are almost guaranteed to object to a replacement. Apple was amazing and they should be, with the recent release of the ipod for windows, they are bound to get a few converts if they keep that level of service.

Re:I have an ipod

[mmca]

> Last week after owning my ipod for 9 months, it finally died.

after only 9 months it FINALLY died??? I like my $300 devices to last longer then 9 months... no?

But the service does sound pretty solid.

Re:I have an ipod

[pvera]

Mine died over its first weekend (bad firewire plug, so it would not recharge). I took it back to the store and it took longer to type into their system the exchange (which requires a floor manager to override the restocking fee) than what it took for them to decide it was broken and they were going to give me a new one.

10 minutes waiting on the genius bar til it was my turn.
About 45 seconds of testing.
15 minutes of paperwork.

So no complaints here. As for the iPod itself, it rocks so hard I can't describe it. It is one of these things that is just done perfect. Something better comes along and you could care less because yours works exactly as you want it. As it is right now you could come up with an iPod killer at half the price and twice the connection bandwidth and that will not make me swap my iPod for something else.

As for the battery, do you really need 20+ hours of battery on one charge? What we need is something like the infoLithium batteries that my Sony DSC S70 camera uses. The camera always knows exactly how much power it has left based on your current usage. The iPod has a battery icon with 4 segments and that's it.

I use mine on the road about 2 hours per day, and I recharge it maybe every 3-4 days. I never leave it connected to the iBook, instead I connect it just to sync and recharge it with the power plug for the firewire cable. So far I have run out of power once, when I left it in the backpack over a weekend without making sure I had locked it. Seems my kid kept walking over the backpack and kept turning it on. Ouch.

Re:Any comments of ipod?

[feldsteins]

If only Apple released a version of iTunes for Windows. Surely it couldn't be that hard! I think they made a big mistake by not doing so.

I keep hearing that exact sentiment and I don't know if it's really true or not but at the very least there could be another way of looking at it. In the first scenario Apple made a huge mistake when not making a "Windows version" of iPod because that's just plain lost sales! Similarly, Apple makes a huge mistake when not porting iTunes because the bundled Windows software sucks ass and will impact sales of Windows iPods...again, lost sales.

The second way of looking at it goes a bit like this. Apple doesn't hurry to port the iPod because the lure of using one is enough to drum up some computer sales. Maybe not the same number of computer sales as the lost iPod sales, but computers are higher ticket items and presumably Apple makes more money on them. Similarly, Apple doesn't bother porting iTunes because it's one of those things that make the Mac look really good compared to the PC - again, more computer sales.

Which scenario is closer to the truth? Only Apple knows and even they don't know for sure because you can't count sales you didn't get. We can assume, however, that they are the most interested party when it comes to Apple sales and revenues...and thus they probably did their homework before deciding how to play it.

Which brings me to my final point: why are there an endless stream of second-guessers who figure they know that Apple would have made more sales/money if they had done differently?

mp3 + phone ?

[ZeLonewolf]

Is there any product out on the market today that is both an mp3 player and a cell phone? I've had zilch luck trying to find a device with those capabilities... :(

Re:mp3 + phone ?

[shumacher]

Yes. At least one pops to mind, but I know there have been a few. Google for Samsung Uproar.

Re:mp3 + phone ?

[jchristopher]

There is a little snap-on MP3 player for the Ericsson T28 World phone. Not much capacity, but it's detachable for when you don't need it and runs off the phone's battery. I think it uses MMC cards. HTH.

Re:There is Support for 98

[puto]

I have and 80 gig USB 2.0 portable hardrive. It runs fine under 98,2000, and xp at USB 2.0 there is support, just a driver issue. My drive is an IBM Desktar that I picked up for 125 bucks. I use it as a backup and also have another one that I have just about every driver, OS, ISO, that a tech guy needs and it sits in my tool kit next to a usb 2.0 pci card. Case I need something on site and I don't have the cd and usb 1 is too slow.

Do a little research.

Puto

Thankyou...

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

I stand somewhat corrected! Having a cdplayer do MP3's and ogg is a nice mix. 640 megs on an inexpensive device, on blanks that cost pennies... not bad!

Re:when apple when ??

[mosch]

Just a few corrections. iTunes can handle variable bit rate mp3s no problem. It can even make them.

Also, the iPod accepts power via firewire just fine, and that's a perfectly valid way to charge it back up.

Why PC freaks love USB is a mystery to me.

recommend me a MP3/OGG seperates unit

[spiro_killglance]

Can anyone recommend a good MP3+OGG seperates
unit i can attach to my Hi-fi, and upload to
via my home LAN (standand CAT5 ethernet). With
10-100G of HD, and no loud fans. I was looking
to homebrew one, but i don't really have the
time. I Don't want to spend more than £300 (UK pounds), can anyone help?

Re:Good point...

[zeno_2]

The new Winamp can play video files as well, so its a multimedia player.

linux and USB 2.0

[Fjord]

Hmm, I was going to ask about ehci drivers for linux, but I found the answer via google:

Q: Does Linux talk to USB 2.0 devices?

A: Yes, in two ways. First the backward-compatible way: all high speed (480 Mbit/sec) devices can be used at full speed (12 Mbit/sec) in all current Linux kernels. Second if you have the EHCI driver, and a USB 2.0 host controller (EHCI, currently available as add-on PCI cards) then you can use these devices at high speed. EHCI support is available in the Linux 2.5 development kernels, and also in 2.4.19 kernels. (The 2.4.19 code should handle USB disks nicely, but for more complete USB 2.0 support, use 2.5 instead.) At this writing the EHCI driver is labeled "experimental".

OGG Petition for Ipod

[gvonk]

Anyone who is interested in signing a petition to add OGG support to the Ipod, Here's the link!

I didn't sign it, but then, I don't really care.

Re:VBR?

[Whelkman]

--r3mix is considered outdated by just about any expert's opinion.

Check out --alt-preset standard or --alt-preset prefered_bitrate if you wish.

Quick Win iPod vs Mac iPod question

[NickV]

Ok, I know this is a bit offtopic, but it's a question nobody seems to know the answer too.

I'm very very close to buying an ipod (10gig version.) I've had a a rio 300, nomad jukebox, and now one of those panasonic SD devices. I decided I want a small device that holds lots of music with an intutive interface, hence I'm getting the iPod.

But, I live in a Mac/PC household (ibook and big desktop PC.) Now I want to be able to use my iPod on both machines (or at least have the potential to use them on both.) So do I get the PC version (with the extra PC software) and if I do will that just plug into my ibook (since all the ipod software comes standard in Mac OS X) or will the Windows iPod be locked out of the Mac?

If that's the case, maybe a Mac iPod with ephpod or XPlay would be better? Hmm... Basically, anyone know if the windows ipod works on the mack?

Re:Quick Win iPod vs Mac iPod question

[mccalli]

maybe a Mac iPod with ephpod or XPlay would be better?

That's the way forward. Buy the Mac version and get XPlay - then it will work with both machines.

Another poster above explained the situation from Apple's FAQ - the Mac won't see FAT drives and the PC won't see HFS+. XPlay uses a MacDrive driver, included in the package, to add HFS+ support to the PC (for iPods only).

Cheers,
Ian

iPod problems

[plastik55]

I currently own a 5GB iPod and have a few complaints.

Overall, the machine is quite good and probably the best on the market. However ther are a few things that it doesn't get right.

First, gap removal -- I have many albums that arte contimuous (live recordings, DJ mixes, classical music, etc.) The iPod provides no gap suppression, so that in between every track there is a noticeable gap of about 1/2 second (or up to five seconds if the hard disk decides to spin up at the same time.) Now, I realize that due to the architecture of most portable mp3 players, gap suppression is not feasible because it requires processing on the decoded audio. So I went and re-encoded all those albums as single mp3s. However, that didn't work well because of:

File size limit: The iPod is very poor at handling files that exceed the size of its 32MB memory buffer. It is incapable of playing music while reading from the hard disk. So if you have a file that is longer than 32mb, it will play the first 32mb, then pause for 3-5 seconds while reading the next 32mb chunk into memory. This means that there is no way to properly listen to continuously recorded albums.

Furthermore, the iPod provides no mechanism for bookmarking or labeling points within a track, so it's impossible for me to see what the title of the current section on my continuously encoded album is. I would find this even more annoying if I listened to audio books.

The backlight is not adjustable, and it's too bright. In a dark room it hurts my eyes.

The backlight, unlike most other kinds of backlight, needs to invert the screen when it's on, which you can see if you take the iPod out into the sunlight. But on a cloudy day, the backlight and the ambient light balance out almost exactly, and the display is unreadable. I can hold down the "Menu" key to turn the backlight off, but that isn't helpful because when I move the wheel the backlight turns on agin immediately. So I have to navigate through the menu system (which is tricky when you can't see the display) to turn off the backlight.

Did I mention the menu interface? The menu interface provides no provision for muscle memory; it cannot be operated by touch. You must be constantly looking at the display while you move the wheel. This makes the iPod downright dangerous for use in the car (which is about 50/70% of where I use the thing). Much of the danger could be alleviated if the wheel provided any sort of tactile feedback -- there is a audible "clicker" you can enable, but you cannot hear it in a noisy environment, or while the music is playing. You cannot adjust the volume unless you are in the "Now Playing" section of the menu interface. If you wanted to turn down the volume without looking at the display, the sequence you have to go through is this:

• Press Menu a bunch to get you out to the top level
  
• turn the wheel clockwise to get to "Now Playing"
  
• Press the center button (watch out, the center button is part of the wheel too, so that when you move your thumb you might accidentally move the wheel and pick the wrong menu item)
  
• Finally turn the wheel counter-clockwise to reduce the volume.
  

That's a little much to expect when you're trying to just mute the damn thing while keeping your eyes on the road!

Finally, iTunes seems to have some speed issues in reading files off of CD-ROMs. Off the hard drive is nice and speedy, but from the CD it clocks in at around USB1.0 speeds. I don't know why this is the case.

I would like to know if there are any portable hard-drive based mp3 players which address these issues.

Re:iPod problems

[sebi]

You make some good points concerning the limitations to the iPod. You do however exagerate the difficulty of muting the iPod. If you don't do anything for a couple of seconds it automatically switches to the "Now Playing" menu. So adjusting the volume is the default action for the wheel 96% of the time. If you are interacting with the thing you are usually looking at the display. True - getting to the top level menu does require a lot of clicks. Especially since the 1.2 update that introduced the "Browse" menu item.

I think, that the iPod UI has been designed to make operation as easy as possible in most circumstances. It has not been designed for special conditions. Dedicated car players are definitely safer to use on the road, but they won't work when you're riding a bus.

I have never even thought about a bookmark functionality but now that I saw it mentioned I must admit, that it sounds like a good idea. Fast forwarding through a track with the wheel (pressing the action button while in the "Now Playing" screen) is an okay substitute. Once again something that works good in most situations, but only okay under certain conditions.

Re:iPod problems

[Fross]

The PJB-100 addresses these issues. it handles gapless playback - not only does it not give you the ludicrous 3-5 second spinup delay, it doesn't even give you the 0.1s delay all other mp3 players give when playing precached mp3s back to back - it allows you to encode a whole album as one big track with separate "pointers" into it for the track points, so to the user it still looks like an album made of X tracks. they are also still manipulatable so you can delete a track in the middle of an album, or move it to the end etc.

it does this by encoding a cd with its own software, or a third party utility for it can take an mp3 and a cue file and upload a gapless album for you. Exact Audio Copy will give you the cue file and the album as a whole track, but you can of course make your own cue files if for instance you have a recording of a book you want to upload. it has an open source SDK so there are a lot of nifty third party utilities out for it, including for linux, of course.

the pjb-100 is rock-solid and really good, i've had mine for over 2 years. it is of course old - it's only USB1.0, but takes 2.5" HDs so capacity goes up to 60 gigs. there are rumours of a PJB-300 meant to come out toward the end of this year, but it's not materialised yet and the featureset is unknown, it may not even be as good as the pjb-100! we shall see.

i almost forgot a link. you can get a lot more info on the pjb-100 here.

David

Re:iPod problems

[plastik55]

Look, all I know is when I play a DJ mix that weighs in at ~100 MB, there are three repeatable points where it pauses and spins up the HD. What version of the iPod/firmware do you have?

You need Win iPod

[AHumbleOpinion]

... Now I want to be able to use my iPod on both machines (or at least have the potential to use them on both.) ...

My understanding is that iPods can be converted from one platform to another, Win to Mac officially, Mac to Win unofficially. The software needed to reformat the HD (Mac uses HFS+ and Win uses FAT32) and restore system software is available as a download on Mac but is ONLY available for Win on the CD that comes with a Win iPod. There is also a CD-Key required for the Win software. iPods have lightweight security that is supposed to only let them synch with one machine. However it also has a hard drive mode. The Win version can be a removable drive under either platform. Keep in mind that it is a FAT32 filesystem so resource forks get lost, you need to Stuff or otherwise prep Mac files for a non-HFS filesystem.

Re:Any comments of ipod?

[AHumbleOpinion]

If only Apple released a version of iTunes for Windows. Surely it couldn't be that hard!

MusicMatch lame? Well Steve did promise a better user experience on the Mac. :)

To be serious I am not so sure iTunes for Windows would be much better. Look at Apple's premier software package, Quicktime, I've found it to be pretty flaky under Windows. YMMV.

If it played OGG...I might buy it.

[Agent Green]

I expect we'll see some of these things play .ogg in the next 6 months to a year.

Don't forget, that an integer-based codec was released by xiph.org under the BSD license...the original article was here towards the beginning of the month.

More memory would be good too since most of my files are either 192kbps MP3s, or Vorbis ripped at quality level 6. (CDex rules!) ;)

Re:If it played OGG...I might buy it.

[acb]

Don't hold your breath. Adding OGG (a new file format with no provision for DRM) would be waving a red flag to the RIAA, and just tempting them to sue.
It could happen, of course, but would require a company with a lot of backbone and deep pockets, and would depend on not being killed by executives concerned about the liability.

different study

[__aawsxp7741]

While obviously you ARE trolling, here's some proof that Ogg Vorbis is actually better than you state:

Recently, one of the best German computing magazines performed an extensive public test of various audio compression codecs, judging Ogg Vorbis as the clear winner. Slashdot article here.

While certainly not a flawless study, it seems a lot more legitimate than what you cite.

Re:Give me wireless napster!

[Salsaman]

Now *that* is a cool idea.

A few MINUTES? That's awful

[phr2]

USB 1.1 is fast enough for the memory size. It takes only a few minutes to transfer 128MB.

128MB is enough for around 2 hours of music, so I could see using a 128MB player like I use my cassette walkman (yeah, I'm a dinosaur). If I want to listen to music at school or something, I take the walkman and pick out a cassette or two from my collection on the way out of the house. Choosing a cassette takes just a few seconds. If instead I had to download 128MB at Firewire speed (say 20 seconds) I could tolerate it. But spending several minutes waiting for something to happen that would normally be spontaneous is awful. They really should put an SD slot in the player. It wouldn't make it much bigger, and would allow fast swapping of music. It would also allow storing much more--SD cards are available up to 512 MB, though those still cost a lot.

What I really want is an iPod device that plays Vorbis, has a hard disk and firewire port, and has some internal flash (say 64MB) or an SD slot. It should allow transfering (automatically even) music between the HD and flash. So I could pick out a bunch of tracks on the menu and start listening to them. The player would copy the tracks from HD to flash at high speed while simultaneously playing the audio at normal speed. After a few seconds or a minute, the tracks would all be in flash and the HD would then spin down, keeping the power consumption to the level of a purely flash-based unit. I guess they could even do that with RAM instead of flash, but then it would have to be reloaded if I powered the unit down.

Re:Amen!

[Zeinfeld]

Yeah, I think he kinda blew his credibility by looking to Bose for anything but great marketing

Their noise canceling headphones appear to work a lot better than my Sony phones.

Re:It makes sense to go for a samller HD

[Fross]

if you're a regular guy with regular jeans and a regular american size behind, would you really risk sitting on $400 worth of delicate electronics?

there are many other options. belt clip is the most sensible and most obvious, jacket pocket and shirt pocket next. i have a pjb100 which is much larger than the archos, and it works fine for me hooked on my belt.

What about a player with a good headphone amp?

[phr2]

I like using full sized, over-the-ear headphones (Sony MDR-V6) instead of those awful earbuds or flimsy Walkman-style headphones. I notice that the headphone jack on my laptop can't really produce enough output to drive these phones at normal listening volume. My stereo receiver can drive them easily. Do any of the portable music players have reasonably powerful amplifiers? Of course I still don't want to buy one til they support Vorbis.

Scrounge an old laptop

[phr2]

and add a USB d/a converter like the Edirol UA-1A (www.edirol.com). The USB converter will give much better audio than the laptop's built-in sound card.

Re:There is Support for 98 Intel Faq

[puto]

Hey dude didnt mean to come off pissy. It was a long day.

Here is an Intel Faq:

http://www.intel.com/technology/usb/faq.htm

Yeah the drivers are vendor related for the USB 2.0 cards that you can get for 98 boxes but I have used several and have been fine.

My drive supports USB 2.0 and firewire by the way, so I get the best of both worlds.

Down side is that pc's just started shipping with 2.0 support so while this is the perfect movable device for me(size of a large paperback). I generally need to bring the card if I am doing large data dumps or backing up a clients box. Well it did two weeks at a client site as a backup drive while they waited for their tape to be rmaed. Then they didnt want to give it back.

I have two 120 giggers on my machine at home sitting side by side as an attached storage solution and have had no problem enclosures have a little fan in them. And considering again the cost. I paid 160 for each one. you can beat it.

Puto

An MP3 player that can store and play CDs?

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

No, I don't mean a CD player that can play MP3 CDs. The player has to be able to Is there a player, with recordable storage that can play normal audio CDs?

I have a friend with an old stereo, a good one, that they want to add CD and MP3 support to. But they don't have a CD-R and are unlikely to get one, so the current crop of MP3 CD players don't help much. I saw one that actually lets you record on small CDs, but can't read or write standard CDs. That won't work.

Re:Any comments of ipod?

[Mr_Silver]

I keep hearing that exact sentiment and I don't know if it's really true or not but at the very least there could be another way of looking at it. In the first scenario Apple made a huge mistake when not making a "Windows version" of iPod because that's just plain lost sales! Similarly, Apple makes a huge mistake when not porting iTunes because the bundled Windows software sucks ass and will impact sales of Windows iPods...again, lost sales.

Personally I think they did the right thing (from an Apple POV). You release the product as Mac only. Get a lot of people drooling over it who can't actually use it. Maybe persuade some people to drop PC's for Mac's in the process but in short say, "hey, if you want cool. You have to come to our side".

The margin on the iPod's isn't that great. So they wait until the price of Toshiba HD's comes down in price so that the iPod makes a healthy profit (even when they've reduced the price slightly) and then release it to the PC world.

Volia, they're making all the money on the PC owners snapping up a high profit product and at the same time, inconveniancing them, because they don't own a Mac.

Which brings me to my final point: why are there an endless stream of second-guessers who figure they know that Apple would have made more sales/money if they had done differently?

Apple would have more sales if they'd released the iPod to PC's at the beginning. They made more money this way holding off.

As for second-guessers, they'll always be them - and sometimes they're right too.

it's coming

[bill_mcgonigle]

Word on the street is that iPod will support Ogg when iTunes 4 is ready. There's, of course, much more to iTunes 4 than Ogg, but it has to wait.

Apple likes to hedge it's bets, even if only for negotiating power. Remember, a software update made the iPod capible of playing Audible.com content, reportedly an MPEG4 file. The iPod can also play WAV and AIFF already.

The question is: this MacWorld or next?

Re:VBR?

[Whelkman]

While there is no official page for the tuned presets, the particular fellows who do the bulk of the work reside in the Hydrogen Audio forums. In general, Hydrogen Audio is the best audio encoding site on the Internet. A Google search may provide some useful information, but, alas, Hydrogen Audio is not Google indexable.

`lame --alt-preset help` will provide some usage information unless you use CVS, in which case the settings have been merged into the original --preset switch.

However, most "audiophiles" are not convinced by documents anyway, so the recommended method in testing the alt presets versus r3mix is to learn a bit about audio encoding, artifacts, and double blind testing (ABX). r3mix has publicly stated that he does not believe in ABXing, a scientifically sound method, so r3mix's tweaks are based on flawed techniques.