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A Digital Certificate For Every Canadian
thepacketmaster writes "September 27 of this year, the Canadian government took a quiet step into the online world. Called Government Online, this broad project involves giving every Canadian citizen a digital certificate, which will allow citizens to access their personal government records online. So far they only have the Custom & Revenue Agency online with a simple Change of Address, but there are over a hundred more applications from various agencies ready to be put online. Could this be the start of something good, or is this Big Brother? How about voting online?"
Get your own!!!
It's just America jr. up there, baby. It's just the loft apartment over the *real* party.
The rest of the world should have it as good as Canada.
"Could this be the start of something good, or is this Big Brother?"
Depends. Yes, it could be Big Brother, if the government is planning on using this as a way to track people. It also could be something very good, in that people could quickly and easily track themselves through the government. Unfortunately, this could also be a means for people to track you quickly and easily....leading to all sorts of uncool cracking/piracy,theft. It's a new tech, gonna have it's problems just like everything else.
Sent from your iPad.
that this is a better idea than what is available here in the US, where you can obtain anyone's private records through a third party, as long as you have money.
This could be the start of something good, or it could be the start of a Big Brother-esque rule. It all depends on where the government takes it. If they only allow people to update their informationk, and do not track it beyond where they have to as required by law, then I would say it is a good thing. However, if they track it, and use the information to spy/whatever you want to call it on their citizens, then it could be considered as going the way of the Big Brother.
Online voting? Never going to happen anytime soon until they can create a good system which is almost impossible to hack. Not, extremely difficulty to hack, but almost difficult, and any bugs which are found are patched immediately, not when they get around to it.
And so we go, on with our lives
We know the truth, but prefer lies
Lies are simple, simple is bliss
this is unnecessary, microsoft already has a system called passport that works even better
why reinvent the wheel?
It provides a way for a person to have an electronic signature, without dealing with paperwork.
they should avoid using online voting in florida. i can hear it now... "i meant to push the LEFT mouse button... it was so confusing..."
bets on how long it takes to slashdot canada?
i hope they've got some pretty tight security going on because i'd be very worried about someone hacking in and stealing all the information.
How about voting online?
They better not run IIS!
I stole this Sig
George Schmaltzki's turtle!!! Yea!!!
+5 Insightful
I mean really, wow!
Is it good or bad? It depends on whether they use it for good or for bad purposes!
No fucking shit, Sherlock.
Canada is quickly turning into a police state. This is a country where you can be arrested for owning a gun, charged for saying something 'racist', and imprisoned for WRITING DOWN child porn fantasies. Talk about draconian!
This digital cetificate for every citizen is just the last nail in the coffin as Canada turns into a police state. I'm sure it's just a conveniant way to track citizens. I hope to God that this doesn't happen to America.
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
Any action taken by government *could* be the start of big brother.
Big brother is someone who is always hovering there, waiting to come out. Whenever people permit government, you permit big brother in to some degree or another.
Tha said, as a Canadian, this is cool.
You see, all these records are obtainable now.. but it's a pain in the ass to authenticate yourself to the proper agencies (go there in person, etc). It would be nice to have a lot of stuff online.. and I'd rather the issued me a private digital certificate for access than some dumb authentication mechanism like just my SIN number & birthdate.
As long as they aren't changing the rules reagarding the information they need to know... I'm okay with it.
ie: CCRA doesn't need to know my address if I don't live in the country. In fact, they don't need to know my address at all; all they need to know is where to send the tax forms/refunds/whatever, which does not have to be where I live.
I don't think this is the start of a Big Brother type project at all. The digial certificate will probably only be used when you are accessing government sites, not unlike when you put your bank card number in to do online banking.
As for online voting, good idea, but not until IPv6 if fully deployed Worldwide, or at least in Canada.
I hate to throw cold water on this, but with a digital certificate, are you proving that you are Jean Deau, or that you are sitting at Jean Deau's computer? This distinction isn't that important for, say, your my.excite.com page, but is vital for dealing with the Government. The links provided don't really give much detail on how this will be implemented. Will each Canadian have his own password, eh? Not being a Canadian myself, I am willing to work with the assumptions that a) there is some way of telling John Smith of Quebec from John Smith of Vancouver b) a substantial enough percentage of Canadians have access to the internet to make this not a waste of time and money.
-- I Am Not A Terrorist.
Where democracy and freedom is a short 4 hour drive to the South! Americans complain about greed and buy-offs. But at least you elect your Senate, your President can't fire the Ethics Police, or if by fluke, by a simple majority in the House of Commons run the country like a dictatorship!
Not Another Prime Minister from Quebec in Canada!
Tournament Management Online &
With pgp/gpg and keyservers like pgp.mit.edu, it's painfully simple to create and revoke keys that you control - as long as Canada picks a similar system, the citizens are still in control. If you feel your key has been compromised, revoke it and go create a new one next time you go to the post office or city hall, or however they verify people...
I've *never* felt that having a digital ID was a threat to my privacy - if I control the keys, I can use the ID when I feel like proving who I am.
Nothing stops me from generating a new ket for some other purpose either - I usually create one for each job/work-email that I use. I've had my private one since '96 or so - you can go grab it from my slashdot profile.
Cheers,
Jim
-- My Weblog.
Some quality security at the cost of anonymity. Depends which way you swing.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
In the US, it is unconstitutional. We are only allowed to vote in private and anonymously. If I could vote on my own system at home, how do they know that my wife isn't looking over my shoulder? The other problem with that is I fear that it will give the elections to the Republicans as most of the people with internet access tend to vote for them and since it will be so much easier than going to your local school/church to vote, Republican voter turn out will be much higher than it usually is.
Lord, bless my users that they may stop being such fucking idiots!!
Is Prime Minister Jean Poutine even aware of this initiative?
There seems to be much sound and fury, but little action. The GOL (Govenment On-Line) initiative has been spoken of for years. But has been infamously SLOW in implementation. It seems that progress is being made now however.
Mmmmmmm. Floor pie!
"You've got bribes!"
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
Did some one call me???
Jean
Seriously, does Canada just look for socialist excuses to bust the budget, waste untold sums of money on data entry and IT services for billions upon billions of documents in a giant database, and raise taxes past 50% for a database that only lawyers and bored hackers will ever use?
This isn't a step into the future -- it's just outright government waste. The Canadian government needs a line-item veto system even more than we do.
It could be the MARK OF THE BEAST.
We all know Canada was inspired by Satan to make us (Americans) look bad. Single payer system (rude gesture)! This just proves it.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
"this broad project involves giving every Canadian citizen a digital certificate"
all ten of them?
Do you have any idea how hard it is to teach the Mounty's horses how to code? That's the problem with low cost development, you pay with oats and it takes a while to get the job done.
OS, Web Server and Hosting History for www.gol-ged.gc.ca OS Server Last changed IP address Netblock Owner
:(
Windows 2000 Microsoft-IIS/5.0 12-Oct-2002 198.103.32.172 Finance Canada and Treasury Board Secretariat
NT4/Windows 98 Microsoft-IIS/4.0 5-Apr-2002 198.103.32.172 Finance Canada and Treasury Board Secretariat
NT4/Windows 98 Microsoft-IIS/4.0 23-Jan-2001 198.103.32.142 Finance Canada and Treasury Board Secretariat
It does not look too good to me
If it goes wrong, we all know who to blame.. right? :)
The only real difference between Canadians and Americans is that Canadians don't murder tens of thousands of people per year so that they can buy big screen TVs.
The Longitudinal Labour Force File fiasco of a couple of years ago. Of course, it has since been dismantled (or else put in the hands of a government body beyond the reach of the Privacy Commissioner) but I would not put it past the federal government to try this again under a different guise.
Here's a little more info.
---
I didn't want to leave this space blank.
... that the Department of Human Resources created a massive database a few years ago, with something like 1500 pieces of information on each Canadian resident. After denying that the database existed, eventually it was shut down due to public pressure.
I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
I think this application is awesome. And believe it or not i trust our polotical system. IMHO its far less prone to corruption. Which means in turn that the big brother scenario is dampened a bit.
... A canadians $0.02
Who dont i trust when it comes to this kind of data? The police system. The RCMP is notoriously corrupt and just a crappy system of law enforcement. (traffic ticket quotas for officers for example).
Hopefully with this initiative we will see things like track your tax dollars and ways to choose where your tax money goes. Like the census does today but much much more powerful.
I think with this initiative if they just setup good law to cover the use of collected data that we will be mostly safe from unnecissary data mining.
Basically keep this data away from the judicial branches of government. Tax evasion is still a crime etc and you can proove if someone has or hasnt paid their taxes pretty simple today.
Personally i like the idea of web-polling and referendums through the web.
Some people will bitch and complain "i dont have a computer so im not entitled to participate in government" and all that jazz but the reality is that we have an excellent public-access library system with no user-fees for residents. These systems are able to access any and all of this data.
The only thing that scares me about this is the possibility of "bot-nets". If you could as a polotical party or other nefarious group spyware like kazaa that could control how people vote it would be completely depremental to the process.
However to have any kind of widespread meaning this would have to be something that wasnt "illegal" eg through the use of screwedup eulas. Like kazaa uses.
Thus it really must be made a crime to hack a computer in canada if this initiative is to be meaningful. And that means using a computers function in any way contrary to the users intentions. No more spyware no more bullshit.
This should be an un-waiveable right and something to be prosecuted on-sight.
As for overseas applications doing screwy things like kazaa is to the us im really not sure of the solution. Obviously banning access to forign files is impossible and extradition treaties dont cover this kind of thing so whats a government to do?
One possible method would be through government paid hackers. People with unlimited amounts of bandwidth and resources that could make it very hostile for a forign company to do business.
Imaging blasting kazaa servers with the kind of bandwidth available to the military.
At the very least if you cant take these sites offline you'll run up their bandwidth costs so high that they'll become unaffordable and or the host country will get mad about its main lines getting clogged and deal with the problem theirselves.
Who knows. This is a dangerous technology currently but maybe they'll come out with some non-software-tamperable device to connect to your router/hub/cat5 interface etc.
There is only one person to blame for this: it's YOU, Cannucks. You voted for this government, and now you complain? Listen: it's been said that a country has the government it deserves. Maybe if you all weren't backwards soacalists, you would be able to live a good life like the rest of us South.
You voted for soacilist health care, and what have you got? A system that's expensive for everyone, unaffordable for most, bloated and not working.
You voted for gun control, and what have you got? Skyrocketing crime, criminals that are more and more dangerous, and will come rob you WHILE you're at home.
You voted for big government, and this is what you got: Taxes going through the roof, government services lacking, and Big Brother watching you.
NOW you want to complain? Hello, what were you doing 20 years ago!
I've been saying it all along, Canada should have been made the 52nd state long time ago, and the whole world would have been better off. But no, you still bow to the qeen. Way to go. Sometimes I think it must be the cold up there making your brains a little slow.
MIT's been doing this for years. Every student who registers is given a kerberos "identity" which they can use to generate a certificate for each computer/browser. This certificate is required to access any records etc, and is used by many classes to access videos of lectures, etc. even the most techno-illiterate students (at mit, but still) have no trouble using the system.
If canada is able to implement a similar system with the security that MIT has, it sounds like a great idea.
How about voting online?
What is there this mad rush to figure out how to make voting to work on the internet? I mean...you vote very close to where you live...you either care to vote, or you don't, online voting isn't going to change that. The technical hurdles are so big that I can't see how they are justifiable.
Furthermore, Canada already has its own little system of voting (piece of paper, put x in your preferred candidates box) and it's cheap, easy to count, difficult to mess up, et cetera. It's we Americans, obsessed with technology, who have varying levels of expensive technology most of which more or less works the majority of the time. (Unlike the Canadian system which works all the time for pennies per election.)
Is the atom good or evil? Before answering remember that we are all made of them...
What about digital certificates?
Good effects:
A faster and probably more effective way to reach the state institutions.
A more straightforward guarantee that you are treaten as a person and not as one more element of the crowd.
A cheaper and relatively safer way of access.
A possibility for bigger anonymity in certain conditions.
Bad effects:
Big Brother is possible. Someone may try to track your doings by the trace of your digital certificate. Worst, its is also possible complete Chaos as people mess with databases, loose data, steal your information.
In certain cases you may get in a bigger and worser line because someone forgot to upgrade the networks in time and Canada population is not so small as it looks.
State institutions may become more bureaucratic and claim "we don't know you because you don't have your digital certificate with you" or "go to the network and we will talk with you". Besides, certain companies may try to explore this advance and start charging traffic higher and higher.
What will prevail? It does not depend on the digital certificate itself but on the way the infrastructure will be created. Unfortunately, there is a big gap between technics and knowledge among the people. So there is a risk that the negative effects will prevail. As an example I could point a company that decided to fight certain problems with security flaws. Data was being stolen and no one could control it. So they installed a system of magnetic cards. But, instead of stopping the problem, things got worse. First, the system was mainly used to know if everyone comes at 8:00 and leaves at 17:00. It also controlled all moves inside the building. So everyone who came at 8:15 or went to take a coffee in the middle of work, had his salary cut. Meanwhile, data burglary became higher than usual as people became more worried about discipline and not security. Other organisations, with similar systems, didn't suffer such problems, as they were not so attained to such a gulag approach.
It's really no good to give people digital certificates if they can't understand its value. It may be obvious to us, but how many people give their bank passwords so that friends (or relatives, or spouses, or whatever) can withdraw money for them and save them the ride? How many people will just throw their certificates on non-secure (and sometimes even malicious) websites?
If the people aren't sufficiently preached to on that, these certificates will only build a false sense of security, which will make crime less noticeable.
I'm not against the idea of digital certificates, on the contrary, I just think it can't be imposed, it has to be (something near) a consensus. You'd think credit cards were, and still...
``Voting Onlin'' doesn't (necessarily) mean voting from your home DSL on your PC. The purpose of online, electronic voting is to have control over how votes are counted, and how long it takes. This does not preclude a public poll, administered by real people, where the voters are ensured their privacy. However, it does mean that there has to be some sort of digital ``accountability'' for each voter.
I prayed about it, and God said, "Don't do it!" But I thought, "I know better."
Another half assed, hair brained scam courtesy of our socialist king Mr. Jean Poutine. Thanks for making every canadian citzen a target for identity theft, and other acts of Big Brother. But what takes the cake is the fact that they are an M$ shop. I feel our data is properly secured and seen as a valuable asset to protect. (My ass) I am thinking of starting a pool on how long before we can find a kiddie script on the net, that will allow you to be Canadian for a day. Complete with SIN, Birth Certificate and all the tax you want... MMMM Seriously considering becoming an American, at least there's more of them to blend in with.
As a Canadian I'm apathetic and hopelessly ambivalent. But if it's offered it would be impolite to say no. Queen Elizabeth, now visiting during her Golden Jubilee, during one of her earlier visits to Nova Scotia was presented with a giant, fiberglass lobster. She was given a giant, fiberglass lobster because the fine folks of Nova Scotia found out she didn't have one. I'm sure the federal government in is similar vein is issuing online identity certificates. Remeber, identity is an ongoing national struggle for Canadians so every little bit helps.
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
If they do it as a browser cookie or something as lame -
Without a password - better a pass*phrase*, it's going to be nearly useless.
But then again, people see passwords as being hard to remember, so they make them weak or non-existant. Bad password management is the weakest link in almost any security scheme. At the very least, it will be an interesting exercise to see how they try it and how well or badly it all works.
Of course, there's always boimetrics, which is a vile concept.
(Maybe canada could buy up surplus Cue::Cats and issue citizens a tattoo with a barcode?)
Cheers,
Jim
-- My Weblog.
Why is information garnered by computer somehow more incideous than information garnered by more traditional means?
The government already has the information, or will have recieved it anyway. They are using the certificates to give you access to your information, and not leave it available to other people. Even the information you will give or update would have been given to the government sooner or later.
I don't see a way for the government to abuse your privacy with this anymore than if a data entry clerk had entered your request for a change of address at the local post office.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
CmdrTaco, is that you?
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
We're not socialists, we just have some socialist policies. Healthcare may cost a lot in taxes, but at least everyone can be sure to get proper care regardless of income level. This is only because in Canada healthcare is a right, not a priviledge.
To say Canada's crime is skyrocketing is ridiculous. I can walk through downtown Toronto (largest Canadian city) in any area at any time of day or night and not fear for my life at all. There are a couple bad neighbourhoods, but even they are many, many times safer than a bad neighbourhood in a major US city. Per capita there is not a single major US city that has lower violent crime than any major Canadian city. Stick your insanely relaxed gun laws up your ass, Americans, you guys have got it all wrong.
The global economy is a great thing until you feel it locally.
...kill thousands of children around the world on a monthly basis like you american bastards.
Canada is not the USA. Our gov't is more efficient than yours even with 'socialist excuses' (read "good ideas"). Go molest your cousin yankee.
have you taken a look at america lately?
While I appreciate some of the concerns raised so far, I must comment as a developer who works for various Federal Government ministies on a daily basis.
1) GOL, while it is a great idea (offering Online government services in addition to "paper" based serveics) it is currently not much more than an idea. It has some official "GOL" apps, but they ar usually nothing more than internal government web apps redone in the Common Look and Feel. So far, only CCRA has a "real" GOL service and all it is is the Change of Address. GOL has not recieved mush hype or funding in over a year, because of September 11.
2) While the "pie in the sky" view of GOL (which is a LONG way from being reality) MIGHT have the POTENTIAL to be used as a "Big Brother" type of tool, the reality is that this is not likely to ever happen. Why? Most Canadian Federal Government departments don't share data between branches within the same ministry, let alone across departments or across ministries. Changing this attitude is required if "Big Brother" is to become a reality, and if you've ever dealt with the Feds (or the provinces or the city for that matter) you know its not going to change soon. Case in point: the department in our Ministry of Health that deals with First Nations (indians to the Americans) health delivery and funding often can't get information from the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, a separate ministry. The end up collecting the same data, doubling costs.
And lets give our "Silly servants" some credit. A particular project I am currently working on had it's scope changed because the civil servants in the group refused to create and application that would collect identifying data! We must now create a version of our app that collects no identifying data and still be able to track individual cases for analysis.
3) GOL could in the long term cut government costs, impove efficiency and allow our governmentto govern better - they would have an up-to-date, accurate picture of some aspect of goverment business.
My concern isn't with GOL. I think it's a wonderful idea and will not likely even be designed to allow a "Big Brother" kind of use. My concern is with the calibre of the people who will be in charge of administering the system. In my experience, most sys admins, dba's, and developes in the Feds are old, behind the times, and unaware of the very technology they are to be in charge of (most have had their jobs at various ministries since the old Mainframe days).
Another Case in Point: the other day I saw a live "demo" of CCRA's "Change of Address" application. while it does require a great deal of information to sign up for the program to prove your identity (Name SIN, stuff from your Tax returns etc) once up and running it is only protected by username and password! No certs. No PKI. No "Smart Card". Just username and password (and no self admionistration that I saw).
So don't worry about GOL. It's pretty far off and not likey to be "Big Brother"-ish because of the culture of our civil service. But that same culture means that when it is in place, it will be administered by old-school, 2nd place techies who can't get a job anywhere else (most of the "technical" people I deal with when creating apps for the governement would never be hired by my company - their incompetent. Why? Because that's all the feds can get - they don't pay enough to get the really good people in the private sector.
And I haven't mentioned the Provinces yet. To becme a REAL Big Brother, the Feds would need a great deal of cooperation from the provinces...and any Canadian can tell you that's not gonna ever happen!
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Voting commissioners have a hard enough time as it is trying to help voters with the silly punch cards they have in Florida. And you expect them to learn how to maintain a particular software suite? After all, these are going to be the people in charge of trying to figure out why a particular voting booth crashed.
And that's even before we get into how much easier you'd be making it for vote fraud. First rule of network security: If you want to keep your information secure, don't put it on the @#$% network!
A few decades back, Louisiana standardized on voting machines. You go in, pull the lever, flick some switches, pull the lever again, and you're done. And it works. No hanging chads, no unstable operating systems, no Slashdotting. It may be nineteenth century technology, but it works! Why can't you just use those instead? Why does everybody insist on adding more complexity?
Of course, I'm willing to bet officials who are looking for computerized voting are some of the same people who put in the broken punch card system to begin with.
A 64 bits Canadian certificate is equivalent to a 100 bits American one.
Je t'aime Stéphanie
Online voting sounds like "whoever has the most IPs get the most votes" where people with more technology get more votes. (Rich people can buy votes by installing lines... ISPs might use IP blocks for voting.) And obviously the voting system will not stand up to the traffic nor the mischeif.
Is stupid.
Go to the polling station.
Mark an X in the circle.
Votes are counted while the scrutineers watch.
Time-honoured, simple, distributed computing system. Works great.
There's no sense in technology for technology's sake. Paper, pen, and people are the appropriate technology for voting in Canada.
"this broad project involves giving every Canadian citizen a digital certificate, which will allow citizens to access their personal government records online."
:-)
Does this include citizens of first nations? It could be troublesome to get certificates out to those in the territories.
Then again, people out in the territories wouldn't have much use for them anyway.
(note to USians: First nations==native american tribes)
So the Big Brother approach means the government will be able to keep track of the most affluent of our society that also happens to a) be technically inclined, b) trusts the internet with their communications, and c) trusts the government with their data.
I hope those 4 people are very happy with the service.
-- Karma whore? You betcha. --
2) ???
3) Security for all!
I _almost_ worked on Government Online (GOL for short), and like anything in the government, it was delayed and redesigned and a half-assed solution was eventually released to shut up the ignorant screams of upper management. Around here, "Digital signature" and "PKI" are hip buzzwords that can land you a 75k$ project management job if you sing to the right people, but that's about all it's good for (for now).
-Billco, Fnarg.com
The US already has some IRS services online:
refund status
efile
More things are coming soon. None of it requires a digital certificate. They are going with a "private information" approach. For example, to change your address and things like that in the future you will need to know the exact AGI filed for a given year, etc.
Not sure if this is better or worse, but that is where it is going in the USA.
Being afraid of "Big Brother" keeping a tab on you is something most people are uneasy about but saying the Government will implicitly track all Canadians through this is simply a result of American fear in Government will take away all identity and all will become a slaves "foolish notion". As a Canadian and believing that social programs and letting government govern is a good thing. Living in one of the most industrialised nations in the world and having government agencies take initiative such as this and using the Internet for a purpose for social good and not only a commercial enterprise it has become for the worse.Quick question "Why can't Americans let the levels of governments make decisions instead of thousands of referendums every elections?"
Hi,
... and a digital certificate. You can use this card to sign online papers, review your taxes on the internet (and enter them), ...
I am from Belgium and there the eGovernment project is well under way. Every citizen will get a digital passport starting from 2003 on. This passport (kinda smart card) contains basic information like name, address, social security,
Basicly, this card is your entry point to the online government.
The system is highly secured, see Federal ICT Belgium for more information.
How me filling out the same forms online as in the Real World (TM) will somehow make the government know things it wouldn't otherwise know, in a Vast Communist Conspiracy To Rule The World And Keep The Working Man Down!
The rampant knee-jerk paranoia on this site by certain people is just disgusting.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Very funny, I don't think they have got it all wrong. Let me tell you slim, our media does not report on all the muggings and crime that goes on in our country. My ex is a nurse and she told me that there is at least 3 mugging related stabbings a week in toronto. If they had a gun, they could protect themselves. Also, in America, if crime is that high wouldn't you want to carry a gun? Also, Americans own property outright, the guns are to protect that land. Canadians always forget that we have less people too, and when we do kill or maim out of malice we use knives, cars, bats, fists. Only in a surface comparison is Canada better than the US, but if you look closely which Canadians never do,(nationalized education), you see simple prejudice. We love to bash rednecks, yanks, southerners.
I'm really embarrased by canucks such as this. They say, we're great because we have no guns. We also have no property rights, a constitution that guarantees nothing and everything that canucks deem good about it is based on the fact that they aren't America.
We brag about about our free health care, even though it's going to the toilet, fast. We don't have access to breakthroughs in medicine, because in order to offer these services our government has to go through years of procedure just to make these breakthroughs available.
Our doctors ARE leaving for the US, so we get our pick of the litter when it comes to third world doctors with sub par certification. Canadians just call these docs and nurses greedy, but it doesn't change the fact that the best talent our country had to offer, is gone, gone, gone.
I think you're rather clueless, you should step outside the Great White Aquarium and see our country for what it really is. Full O' Shit.
Yes, you can bet that if our government is involved
For the Prime Minister's true take on this, visit http://buzz.ca/fun/dialect.cgi?input_url=http%3A%2 F%2Fwww.gol-ged.gc.ca%2Findex_e.asp&dialect=0
Canada! Canada! Canada! I love this country!
We will neve achive on-line voting because the net is (and will always be) to insecure. Even if we made a special network and beefed the security up it still could be exploited in such a way that the boys in Washington would have no idea ... or even worse pay to have happen.
Also, look at the fiasco that happened in Florida just recently in the primaries. They had touch screen computers for voting in the counties that had problems in the presidential race and yet they still had major problems. People were confused over (trivial) things like if they touch the wrong face does that mean they lose their vote or even if they should since some people are compleatly afraid of technology. Not to mention the problems they had with the people incharge of those systems (lost votes, systems crashing, and no one showing up to get the elctronic-vote drives).
We have such ineptitude and idiocy in our government and CSIS (our security agency) and this is what really scares me!
N ov /0028.html
Check this out...
http://www.landfield.com/isn/mail-archive/1999/
And you want us Canadians to trust our governement with our security???
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
(South China Morning Post) [11.15.99] There are red faces all around
at Canada's spy organisation after top-secret documents were stolen
from the back seat of an agent's car.
In what is being described as the most serious security breach in 20
years, documents outlining the future plans of the Canadian Security
Intelligence Service (CSIS) were stolen last month by drug addicts
while the agent was watching an ice-hockey game in Toronto.
The thieves were apparently looking for money when they saw a
briefcase in the car parked outside the arena where the Toronto Maple
Leafs play.
And a police investigation has concluded that the sensitive documents
were later tossed into a rubbish bin and ended up in a landfill site.
The CSIS, which was formed in 1984, is responsible for
counter-intelligence and counter-terrorism efforts in Canada.
The agency, which is charged with guarding the Government's deepest
secrets, is extremely embarrassed by the lapse.
CSIS officials were trying to play down the importance of the
documents, saying they contained no details of intelligence sources or
specifics of operations.
But an agency official was forced to conclude "we consider the loss of
the documents to be a serious matter of national security".
It is not the first time the CSIS has slipped up. Earlier this autumn,
there were reports that one of its spooks had posted on the Internet
the names and pictures of Canadian fighter pilots who served in the
Balkans war.
In another incident, a computer disc containing the names of targets
of CSIS intelligence probes was found by a member of the public.
"This is simply a debacle," said Jim Abbott, an MP with the opposition
Reform Party. "We look like we are in amateur hour."
But even as cartoonists and satirists feasted on the story, there were
warnings that Canada's spy agency was now seriously compromised. The
country is not a specific target for terrorists but it proximity to
the United States and its open access to banking and
telecommunications make it attractive to terrorist groups.
==
Some day, on the corporate balance sheet, there will be
an entry which reads, "Information"; for in most cases
the information is more valuable than the hardware which
processes it. -- Adm. Grace Murray Hopper, USN Ret.
==
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
I hope I can use my gub'ment certificate for https://ecommerce instead of having to buy one from those cocksuckers at VeriSign.
I can just imagine the first online vote. What do you think CowboyNeal would do as prime minister of Canada?
omnia tua castra sunt nobis
First,let me cmt about the self-proclaimed libertarians with their rhetoric that they don't even understand.
Canada, Communist(tm)? Them braying this wouldn't know anybody to the left of Teddy Kennedy if we bit 'em in the ass. They claim there's no difference between, say, Jimmy Carter, Teddy Kennedy, and Stalin...and then claim that there's a *huge* gap between Reagan/Bush/Bush and Fallwel and Mussollini.
They're simply ignorant, and militant about their ignorance, so, y'all from Canada, just ignore 'em, unless you like "debates" with folks who have no idea what a real argument is (the Argument FAQ is at ).
Voting online - the worry that someone brought up, about the company setting up polling places, and checking keystrokes (hell, they can put something to read the signals from meters away!), I *do* worry. Union bosses? Uh, sorry, turkeys, you have *no* clue what the reality of most unions are like. Now bosses...when I worked at a Baby Bell in the mid-nineties, and all the telecoms were pushing for deregulation (the Telecom Act of 1996), our managers were told to "encourage" us to write or email our Senators and Congressmen...and that the CEO wanted a copy of the letter.
Fascism? Yes, it's here. Look at Ashcroft. How did they get in? All you little geeks "oh, the Democrats" are all special interests (um, unions represent 13 million people - who do the telecoms, or the financial industry represent...and they give a *lot* more money to the Republicans . All the little geeks, who make in the range of what 80% or 85% of what all US workers do ($100k/yr), but are all Billionaire Gates wannabees, who won't even vote their *own* "enlightened self-interest", which is anybody *but* Republican.
But that's ok...so, now, if y'all want to flame me that's ok, too...as long as you can tell me, without lieing, that y'all voted in the primaries the last couple of years, and then in the elections. I have my little stubs that say that I do, around here. I could find them and scan 'em (and get the jpeg down to a reasonable size in the Gimp) to prove it.
If you ain't got 'em, sit down and shut up. They're my license to criticize. Remember, y'all got the government you deserve.
mark
Besides the problems posed by the identification/ authentication/ authorization triad (often and pitifully confused, but definitely not the same thing), there are no current practical means to conduct an election with large number of voters over the internet (or any network, BTW) with the required assurances: registration, non-individualization, no anticipate results, etc. Most efficient protocol for internet voting is said to be practical for up to 100000 voters (but no empirical evidence exists).
The federal tax brackets are as follows.
Taxable Income: Marginal Tax Rate:
$0 - $30,754 16%
$30,755 - $61,509 22%
$61,510 - $100,000 26%
$100,000 and over 29%
Provincial rates tend to be 1/2 of Federal rates. So if you made $100k you can expect to pay between 40 and 45%.
Also you don't pay the federal rate of 29% on ALL of the $100k, only on the money you make above that. From $61510 up to 100k you pay the 26% and so on.
I went to a snow conference in Boise last winter, and a bunch of Canadians were there. Every one of them were complaining about the awful healthcare system (they were from the west; I dunno if there is a regional difference?). More than one knew at least a few people that had come to the US, so they could skip the dreaded "waiting list".
How about this:
Give a FREE (or very cheap) digital certificate to every citizen. You know, instead of relying on VeriShine and Thought's verification process (motivated by, you guessed it, "dollar dollar bills, yo"), the government would back your digital identity. You know how hard it is to get anything at a public office, you need like 50 different IDs like foot doctor bills and utensil bills to get a friggin driver's license. Repeat after me: DRRRRRRIVERRRRR'S LICENSE - its supposed to prove you can drive, not prove where you live - that's why its not called HOMEOWNER/RENTER'S CAR LICENSE!
<rant off>
The gov't should not be involved. They receive our yearly contributions, let us breathe a little for God's sake!
This doesn't seem to have the redundancy of a signed photo ID.
"A general manager at the city's hockey arena, Moehring has used the Hamilton County court's Web site to check out potential hires."
...
o urt.records.ap/
"He's even turned away a few because of what he found."
"But someone used the site to pull Moehring's Social Security number and other details from a 1996 traffic ticket, opening seven credit cards in his name and charging $11,000."
"People don't have good intentions, and the county is laying a road map for them," Bloch said. "It goes beyond stolen identity. It speaks to personal safety."
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/10/12/online.c
This is nothing to worry about. Canada a police state? Canada is perhaps the most free country in the world. An identity simply provides a mechansim for the government to be relatively sure they are dealing with whom they think they are for online transactions -- much like you have to show some ID in some circumstances. No one has to use their digital ID if they don't want to engage in online transactions. For those interested in trying free digital ids, Thawte has a web of trust program for free x.509 certificates. I think they run the program as a loss leader -- they hope people will upgrade to paid-for certs.
THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!
I dunno. i think this will be cool. Online voting especially, beats having to haul my ass to the voting office to vote for some paki i could care less about. (my dad made me vote for him lastyear, prolly will this year too) deepak obrahi for life!
Maybe if you'd even thought about this a little bit you wouldn't have posted it, but obviously you lack that trait.
For example, Insulin (it's used to treat Diabetes, which 1 in 5 AMERICANS has) was developed in Canada, by Canadians.
so next time you want to whine about how much everyone else whines about you, think about the reason, and ask if you're adding to it, or taking away from it. If it's the former, then don't bother posting.
Well, possibly more about keeping Entrust in business, rather than actually using the digital certificates, which have shown the be a solution looking for a problem.
lyal
This has got to be one of biggest differences between Canadians and Americans. The American stance seems to be that government is bad, the smaller and less invasive they are the better. Conspiracy theories abound, and unfortunately I can't for surely say that they're unfounded. The irony is that instead of letting the government have any control, corporations have managed to gain control. The dollar rules much more in the states than here.
There seems to be a large Us vs. Them mentality between the Government and the People in the U.S. This isn't so in Canada. For one thing, the government is the people, not just in theory but in reality. If the government were to try and take over the country (a common reason for Americans needing their guns) how would they do it? Are you suggesting that my parents and sister (government employees) would take me (non-government worker) hostage? Its ludicrous to be afraid of the government.
So getting back to the main point, I too trust the government more than a corporation, as I think do most Canadians. Corporations have only one goal, and that's to make money, and that's bad. When people talk about privatizing things like jails it truely scares me. I work in private security, and its pathetic. No corner is left uncut. There's no conscience or social responsibility. This is much better left in the hands of government. I personally believe the same holds for most things, like utilities and such. After all, the goverment is basically a gigantic co-operative. Sure the government doesn't always do the right thing, but its rarely a big deal in the long run. My only real complaint about the government is the lack of efficiency that companies have to gain to stay afloat. Of course, a lot of that efficiency is gained through corner-cutting. The trick is to eliminate the bloat without cutting corners.
Anyway, that's my CDN$0.02.
--
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." - Homer Simpson [1F10]
Sounds very familiar. In the beginning of october, a large and similar project was announced in Belgium too. The Belgian Phone company (Belgacom), the postal service (De Post/La Poste), a large Belgian security company called "Ubizen", and a chip card manufacurer called "Zetes" are joining the government in setting up a big project that will replace our paper-and-plastic ID cards by certificate chip cards in three years from now, all of this based on the technology of PKI company Baltimore.Uses: filling in your tax form online, ordering forms and documents from the federal and local governement, and interacting with communal services, I guess (like our RVA, the OCMW, ...), and even sending secure e-mail(for which you will probably pay a fee too De Post: they're setting up a company called PostBox which will be a joint venture between the postal services and the phone company Belgacom). There's a pilot soon, in about 10 Belgian communities. Leuven, the city where I live, is one of them. As a security engineer in a large finance and insurance group in Belgium, I find this stuff rather exciting. Still... Privacy issues? I heard that, in the beginning, they were planning to issue different certificates according to your "role": there'd be an extra certificate on the chip for doctors, one for lawyers, ... to enable them to set up more localised trust networks. But this renders your ID card more and more specific - and having too much information in there is something that feels iffy. We already have a chip card in Belgium (it has been like that for a few years, now) on which all our social security information is stored: we have to present it every time we go to a pharmacy (we don't have drug stores in Belgium like Americans do: aquiring drugs is highly regulated here). Anyway - if this is the start of a process that leads to the complete aggregation of all personal and medical information under a gouvernement controlled nation wide PKI, then this also worries me somewhat. If it'd be just to fill in my tax forms online, I'd be all for. It's not as if we have anything to say in it.
"."
Hmm I don't know why this comment hasn't been moderated up. Could someone please do so, it's rather an important reactionist point in refrence to the comments before it.
The real issue with on-line voting is NOT whether its technologically feasible to ensure that I am who I say I am when I vote. Set that aside, assume that you can do that however you want, with digital certificates or some sort of biometric signature. The issue is whether you can ensure, when I vote away from a public polling place, that no-one is privately coercing me or tracking my vote (boss, spouse, union leader, rich candidate buying my vote etc.) And this is the major stumbling block identified by the Carter-Ford commission which commented on just this matter after the problems in Florida. And they cited the work of many earlier studies through centuries of thinking on this issue. So separate the ability to vote electronically from the ability to vote away from a polling place. When you think about it, you will see that no matter what technology you use, you still have need for a public polling place to ensure that the vote is truly cast freely and in secret.
[Sorry to have to go anonymous on this one.]
This is as much a boondoggle for Entrust (based in Ottawa and well-connected with government) as anything else. There's little fear of Big Brother, since it's unlikely the system will work or even be fully deployed.
In any case, PKI is no more secure than the computer where it lives. The typical family computer is a Windows box accessible to, probably, four family members, 10-20 relatives, and 20-40 neighbourhood kids (not to mention every other house on the same cable-modem subnet). If the private key is protected by a password, then the security is the password, not the key -- why not just hand out PIN numbers in the first place?
As someone who has been the recipient of CDN gov't, uh, ATTENTIONS, for many years, it's with the greatest of clarity and ease that I can assure you: the CDN gov't is every bit the police state that the U.S./Brit/etc. gov'ts are -- and anything they are planning like this WILL be used to control people. We must resist this stuff. I, for one, will never use it -- to say the least.
This increasingly ominous use of Internet technology by the state could only become a debateable issue for (FI) suburban working people -- mall-goers; geeks -- who have essentially uncritically supported such governments up till now, only because the state has never needed -- yet -- to more directly control them. Not so lucky the poor, the immigrant, the colored -- the politically-active. Not so lucky the imperial subjects in the colonies. And certainly no one is offering them any Brave New World at 456 degrees Fahrenheit. Such people are not part of the /. demographic, and are not going to be asked for their opinions on such benevolent offerings of the state...
And then again: some people think it would be so kewl to actually get a microchip imbedded in their necks (I've had this little gem of hope put point-blank to me more than once).
Hey -- go to IndyMedia and ask them what they think of this use of technology.
EON condensed matter distributed-computing project.
Having worked on some of the actual provincial policy regarding PKI implementation, a few things in these posts need to be clarified: 1.) Privacy Commissioners have the authority to veto any potential infringement on people's privacy and in the PKI realm they are determined to ensure that protection is a reality. 2.) The fundamental flaw in any PKI implementation is the identification and authentication process. Considering how watered down the ID acceptance process is, anyone can gain a degree of anonymity without leaving "visible tracks" for everyone to follow. 3.) Considering the cost of fraud and abuse to the current systems, anything is better than what we presently have. And if you really believe that you cannot be traced by the current systems in place - guess again. 4.) PKI is probably the most misunderstood technology out there. The degree of fear and paranoia surrounding it astounds me (but then, so does the knowledgeable coaching from the armchair quarterbacks). What it really does is provide a degree of non-repudiation for electronic transactions. The lack right now is public education. 'Nuff said. PKI has its uses and will be implemented over time, whether we want it or not. In the long run, it will help to reduce some of the fraud and waste in the system (SOME, I say - not all!). Having grown up in a repressive regime where identity cards were a fact of life, I can see the value of a PKI certificate for everyone. I can also list the potential abuses. The good outweighs the bad in this instance. And no system is perfect.
here--I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.
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