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SGI Introduces World's Densest Server

Twirlip of the Mists writes "Today SGI announced the Origin 3900 server, the world's densest computer. How dense? How about 16 MIPS R14000A processors and 32 GB of RAM in a 4-rack-unit 'superbrick,' for a grand total of 128 processors and 256 GB of RAM in a single rack. That makes the new machine the densest single-system-image computer in the world; it's even denser than most blade systems. Just for fun, the server also includes a whole bunch of 64-bit, 133 MHz PCI-X slots (from 11 up to hundreds and hundreds, depending on configuration). There's coverage of the announcement on ZDNet, CNET, and InfoWorld, as well as on SGI's own site."

142 of 338 comments (clear)

  1. SGI's Gettin' Some by supergumby · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Good to see a non-Intel compatible platform release something interesting these days. What we need is faster, cheaper hardware that makes sense!

    1. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by pixelated77 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think the last adjective ever applied to SGI is "cheap" :) They'll make Ferrari owners feel like part of the proletariat.

    2. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What we need is faster, cheaper hardware that makes sense!

      The 128-processor Origin 3900 lists for $2.9 million. There's nothing "cheaper" about this. Faster, yeah; this is one of-- not "the," but one of-- the fastest computers in the world. And it's the densest. But it's nowhere near cheap.

      --

      I write in my journal
    3. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by Sean+Johnson · · Score: 3, Funny

      Just wait for the technology to trickle down. You'll be able to get womething on par with this for $3000 in about, oh say......30 yrs.

      --
      >>>>>> Chewie, take the professor in the back and plug him into the hyperdrive.
    4. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There are 128 cpu intel/amd solutions that fit in a single rack. I know of at least 3 companies that produce them and they are cheap.

      There are a few blade systems that can squeeze 128 or more processors into a rack, but those are blade systems, not single-system-image compute servers. You can't use a blade server to do the job of an Origin 3900. (Of course, the converse is also true; you wouldn't buy an Origin 3900 to do something you could do with a blade server instead.)

      SGI tends to produce exactly what the customer wants. It's just that their customer is more often than not the federal government, or a very large corporation. It's not well-known-- in fact, for a time it was classified-- but SGI designed, manufactured, and sold an entire line of what were basically DSP coprocessor units specifically for Lockheed's satellite division. Called the "tensor processing unit," each one was basically an expansion module for the Origin 2000. SGI built it just like a commercial product, complete with documentation and everything, and manufactured them in large quantities. It's just that you couldn't buy them unless you were Lockheed.

      It's only when SGI tries to branch out that they do poorly. I don't know WTF they were thinking when they decided to try selling inexpensive (relative to other SGI products) workstations running NT or Linux. That was just insane. But as SGI strips more and more of that BS away, they get closer and closer to being a sound company again.

      --

      I write in my journal
    5. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by bmajik · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They're not out of the woods by any means.

      History speaks pretty clearly about what happens to companies that marginalize their business into making 1-offs for infinite-budget DoD contracts and agencies. Eventually, projects get cancelled, line items in budgets get axed, and whole departments are re-orged into something different.

      Cray, anyone ? Cray-Research basically went under when the Cray-3 contract was axed. They were counting on that single-machine to keep the afloat. They futzed around with GaAs custom process and never got it qutie working right, and then the cold war ended and with it the justification for subsidizing a maker of 1-off supercomputers.

      (Incidentally, the purchase of Cray is what really broke SGI's back. 50% more employees, 2% more market cap, and the O2k/O3k technology came from stanford, not Cray) SGI bought itself into the supercomputing space with the cray acquisition, but their sales reps didn't know what to sell... T3, vector, or Origin. It bled the company pretty badly.

      Nobody argues that right now, there are some things for which there simply isn't any other rational choice besides SGI. In the early 90s, that was "anything with video, at all". Look how that market has all but vanished for them.
      The problem is the number of markets for which SGI is the only choice is shrinking and will continue to shrink. Only the institutions that need to be 1-3 years ahead of the curve will pay the huge markup for it. The big advantage of the O3k system is, as you ponit out, the single-system image. But this is only really advantageous for lazy programmers, and when you're talking 3m for a machine to do scientific or simulatino work, i suspect a lot of the code running on these is very custom, and NOT done by lazy programmers. So the brilliant thinking SGI has put into the hardware can sometimes be beaten by domain-specific software. Eg, lets say that MOSIX and 10Gig ethernet advances to the point that you can build a 1024p 512 node cluster, where the backbone (10Gb ethernet) is constructed in the same hypercube fabric as the numalink cables, and MOSIX can with software emulate the memory/process/thread migration that O3k is doing now....

      then will 2.9m for a machine still seem justified ?... a 512 node wintel cluster is cheaper than 2.9m if the node cost is under about 5500. How many x86 boxes do you know of that cost 5500.. even with 2 procs, a few gb of ram, and 4 or 5 10GB ethernet controllers (so that each node is n-way connected in the same hypercube fabric that O2k and o3k provide)

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    6. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by scotch · · Score: 2

      Cray is still alive and well, building super computers. Names change, companies get bought, yada, yada, yoda....

      --
      XML causes global warming.
    7. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Cray-Research basically went under when the Cray-3 contract was axed.

      Cray has already taken more than $25 million in orders for the X1, a computer that hasn't even been built yet. Cray has had a rough time, but they're doing just fine.

      lets say that MOSIX and 10Gig ethernet advances

      What if it does? Bandwidth between nodes isn't as big a problem as latency in that case. No matter how fast-- in terms of bits per second-- your network transport is, you're always going to have latencies that are a million times higher than node-to-node latencies inside a NUMA system like the Origin. Seriously, a million times; we're talking milliseconds versus nanoseconds here. Your dismissal of single-system-image designs in favor of cluster designs shows a distinct lack of vision on your part, I'm afraid.

      then will 2.9m for a machine still seem justified ?

      If you set up the hypothetical situation such that the less-expensive system does everything that the more-expensive system can do, then no, of course the more-expensive system isn't justifable. But that's not reality. SGI can deliver 1,024-processor systems right now. You can call them up and place and order for a 512-processor system right out of their main price list. (Bigger systems are special deals, but the 512-processor configuration has its own part number, just like a workstation or a monitor.)

      Two or three years from now, when everything you just described is possible, let's see what SGI has in its price book and revisit the question. I imagine the answer then will be the same as the answer now, just with the facts ratched up a few notches. "Yeah," you'll say, "SGI can deliver 8 kiloprocessors for $3 million, but is it justified? A 2 kilonode wintel cluster is cheaper...."

      --

      I write in my journal
    8. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

      You can't just flippy-floppy words around and call the result the converse. That trick only works when the proposition is in the form of an "if-then" statement. The converse of "if x then y" is "if y then x."

      This is, of course, aside from the fact that I was obviously using the expression "the converse is also true" in the colloquial sense, not the Boolean. Dork.

      --

      I write in my journal
    9. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

      and other Bigass(tm) vector machines

      Heh. When I first scanned this, I read it as "BigBLAS(tm)." Funny thing is, either meaning makes perfect sense.

      --

      I write in my journal
    10. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by jericho4.0 · · Score: 2
      We might not ever be able to afford something like this. Big iron is not only fast at crunching nubers, but fast at getting that data in and out of the proccessers.

      In terms of IO, our desktops can still be beaten hands down by 30 year old systems.

      But then again, maybe someone will perfect some super cheap optical system and desktops will be putting out a 1000 times the IO of this thing...

      --
      "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
    11. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by billd · · Score: 2
      ok so intel is cheep, but it you want harder and faster then you can't afford to have cheep.

      Cheep cheep! goes the newly hatched chick

      Cheap cheap! goes the Hong Kong shopkeeper

      There are no degrees of pedanticism.

      --

      -----

      For great justice!

    12. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by fgodfrey · · Score: 2
      You are pretty off base here on some points:


      The Cray 3 did *not* sink Cray Research. The Cray 3 sunk Cray Supercomputer, which was a different company. Cray Research built an aweful lot of machines after the Cray Supercomputer spinoff. As to what, exactly, sunk Cray to the point of the SGI merger, that is a hard question. Some technical issues coupled with lower defense spending and bad management.


      The merger with Cray is *NOT* what broke SGI's back. SGI loved to heap that on the former Cray employees, but that's not the case. Incompetant management, impossible business plans, and lack of a vision on what to do with Cray after the purchase is what has sunk SGI.


      Another thing that has sunk SGI, other than incompetant upper management under the Beluzzo administration, is what you bring up in the next paragraph - the number of things that you can do *only* on an SGI is shrinking. SGI failed to recognize this.


      As for 10-gig-E and MOSIX: a) 10gig-E doesn't really exist yet in a commodity box b) Even when it does, no commodity PC is going to be able to drive it at full speed c) MOSIX is not yet where Irix is in terms of large scale SSI's and d) in the time it takes for all the first three things to get fixed, SGI is going to have something better (or they'll be out of business).


      As for your last paragraph, NO commodity PC presently available has the I/O bandwidth to drive even *ONE* 10-gig-E card at full speed, let alone 4. Also, 10-gig-E cards aren't cheap. Sorry, but you're going to be spending $5500/node even for a PC. Will we be there in 5 years? Yeah, probably, but in 5 years, SGI and Cray will be making even bigger systems.


      Oh yeah, one last thing - an x86 can't address as much RAM as this thing can because it's a 32 bit and not 64 bit processor.

      --
      Go Badgers! -- #include "std/disclaimer.h"
    13. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by bmajik · · Score: 2

      i concede having my history and my names confused. good catch.

      re: "my vision"

      the NUMAlink is not magic, it is a very specific high performance link with low latency a goal. Eventually, "off the shelf" stuff will be performance competitive, and at a lower cost.

      I realize that using hardware not optimized for low latency in place of the FLASH-derivative chips that the router boards use will hurt. I'm referring more to being able to emulate in hosted software the illusion that the NUMA layer creates - that you have a huge pool of local memory, when infact you have a number of discrete pools of physically separate memory, and some slick hardware and software that makes them "seem" local unless you happen to have an app which breaks the implemented algorithms.

      My point is that the hardware/software hybrid solution doesn't work magic, its very fast custom hardware with some software that makes it plausible to NOT _have_ to treat what is essentially a cluster like a cluster. There is little inherent advantage to having a single-image OS if you can write a library that your user space HPC apps will use that provides for single-memory and thread/data migration across the nodes in a performant way. And i think cheaper non-custom hardware and intelligent software can bring that layer to traditional clusters.

      I'm a huge SGI fan, and i respect the O3k for what it is. (and i respected the O2k and O200 before it). I've read the white papers, even the DASH/FLASH ones from stanford.

      Today, the O3k lets many apps scale up to a high cpu count and a large memory size, so that naive implementations can tackle larger problems. In the future, i claim that software and faster interconnect hardware (be it some new ethernet or myrinet or something similar) will let you do the same on commodity hardware.

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    14. Re:SGI's Gettin' Some by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

      In the future, i claim that software and faster interconnect hardware (be it some new ethernet or myrinet or something similar) will let you do the same on commodity hardware.

      That's fine. But unless something drastic happens, this "in the future" scenario won't happen for many years-- even the fastest external interconnect is a long way from CrayLink/NUMAlink's specs. Assuming that we're both right, that it will happen eventually but not anytime soon, then by the time your scenario comes to pass, SGI or some other supercomputer manufacturer will have responded to customer needs by making some other large-scale single-system-image implementation that is to this new mystery interconnect as CrayLink was to 100BASE-T in 1995.

      It's a circle-of-life thing.

      --

      I write in my journal
  2. necessary but not sufficient by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    that's the min system spec for Office 2005! start saving now..

  3. System Requirements by Soporific · · Score: 5, Funny

    Isn't that the system requirement for the up and coming Doom III?

    ~S

    1. Re:System Requirements by akula1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      It'll probably be about right by the time Duke Nukem Forever is released.

    2. Re:System Requirements by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      I don't know, but I suspect by the time DNF comes out this won't be enough horsepower to run a server, let alone the game itself.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  4. Densest server? by digitalsushi · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now where do we find the world's densest admin to run it?

    --
    slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
    1. Re:Densest server? by sharkey · · Score: 2

      Now where do we find the world's densest admin to run it?

      Go to Monster.com and look for "MCSE".

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
  5. evil Beowulf by 3Y3 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Every time somebody makes yet another Beowulf cluster joke/reference they make baby IT developer Jesus cry.

    --
    ---- Anyone can act smart, but it takes a smart person to act stupid. ----
  6. Now if only we could test it... by carlmenezes · · Score: 2, Funny

    with the Slashdot effect, we'd see how good those processors really are :)

    --
    Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
  7. Re:Is it such a good new? by pyr0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    "...and more on lessening heat dissipation..."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you want to *increase* heat dissipation?

  8. Re:Just imagine a beowulf .... by jo42 · · Score: 5, Funny
    Query: What do you call a cluster of slashdot Linux geeks?

    Response: The boys that cried "Beowulf!".

  9. World's Densest Server by bstadil · · Score: 4, Funny
    Not true.

    This record goes to Emmanuel at the little bistro on Rue de Bach just off Blvd. St. Michel in Paris.

    --
    Help fight continental drift.
    1. Re:World's Densest Server by Usquebaugh · · Score: 2

      Fire, fire!!!

      No it's just a test get back in the kitchen.

    2. Re:World's Densest Server by JPelorat · · Score: 2

      Please.. please try to understand before one of us dies.

      --
      Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
  10. Dense? by The+J+Kid · · Score: 2, Funny

    Stupid servers....getting denser all the time...

    ({:P for the {:P-impaired)

    --
    Moderation: +4. Modded 70% Funny and 30% Overrated. 100% Saturated.
  11. yeah... by 2Bits · · Score: 2

    now imagine running the heaviest hardware with the lightest of the light OS...

  12. Re:Heating? by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Informative

    I meant to mention this in my submission, but it slipped my mind. The R14000A only consumes 17 watts of power. Four of them, plus the Bedrock memory controller chip, plus up to 8 GB of RAM, fit on a board inside a 1 RU clearance. Four of them, plus some nifty backplane hardware, fit into a "superbrick," meaning sixteen processors in 4 RU.

    As far as heat loading goes, the "superbrick" is basically one big wind tunnel, with giant fans on the front and ventilation out the back. It pumps a lot of heat into the room, but the temperature in and around the CPUs is really pretty low. I think it peaks around 35 C.

    --

    I write in my journal
  13. Does it include it's own Fire suppression system? by jander · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As someone who has worked with blades, my first question is what they do about heat... Sure the CPU's may run a little cooler, but at that density, what keeps it from melting???

    --
    An ounce of perception is worth a pound of obscure
  14. Are we talking Homer dense? by burgburgburg · · Score: 2
    D'oh!

    Or Dan Quayle dense?

    D'ohe!

  15. Blade/Origin Comparison by zmalone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Commenting on how the new Origin systems are denser then any other single image system, and then comparing them to the current blade fad to make your point is a bit silly. Blades are seperate machines (unless they are Sun, in which case they are the current desktop line), this system is a single machine. I'm not entirely certain about this density claim either, doesn't Sun fit 128 processors in a rack with the Fire 15ks?

    1. Re:Blade/Origin Comparison by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sun fits 106 processors into a rack. They were previously the record holder. The Origin 3900 is considerably denser than the Sun Fire 15K, both in terms of processor count and PCI-X slot count-- though not at the same time, of course.

      I compared the density of SGI's system to blade systems because those are widely considered to be the densest computers in the world, with something like 90 or 100 individual one-processor computers per rack. This system is not only dense in terms of pure processor count that most-- not all, but most-- blade servers, but it's also got all the advantages of a single system image for HPC applications.

      --

      I write in my journal
    2. Re:Blade/Origin Comparison by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Close, but no kewpie doll. A superbrick hold 16 processors (not 64; I think that was a typo on your part), and connects externally via NUMAlink to other superbricks. But, if I remember my numbers right, the maximum memory latency across the longest multi-router NUMAlink hop in a 128-processor Origin 3000-series system is less than the normal processor-to-processor latency in the Sun Fire 15K. NUMAlink is incredibly fast. The ratio of local memory latency to remote memory latency is something 1:1.5, as opposed to about 1:10 in IBM's and Sun's big systems.

      --

      I write in my journal
  16. Hmmmm by Chrispy1000000+the+2 · · Score: 2, Funny

    You'd still probably need a beowolf cluster of these things to run the future Quake 3 multiplayer server...

    --
    Sig
  17. Pointless in most datacenters by cjsnell · · Score: 3, Interesting


    These servers are pointless in most datacenters. In order to fill one rack with this much horsepower, you would need at least two empty racks next to it to compensate for the power draw and (much) increased cooling needs. I would argue that the target market for this equipment is government labs, research institutes and universities--not usually starved for floor space.

    1. Re:Pointless in most datacenters by Jobe_br · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Just an FYI - the CNet article (linked above) talks about its possible use on oil rigs - that type of mapping usually takes some horsepower and as usual, anything that is sea-based will be somewhat cramped for space!

    2. Re:Pointless in most datacenters by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right but wrong. The target market for this system is definitely government and university HPC labs, but those labs are definitely short of floor space. Putting more MIPS per floor tile is an important advancement.

      --

      I write in my journal
    3. Re:Pointless in most datacenters by jhines · · Score: 2

      The CNet article pointed out that the chip draws 17 watts, similar to a notebook chip. That isn't the whole story, but it helps.

    4. Re:Pointless in most datacenters by afidel · · Score: 2

      At 14W per cpu these things are more dense in terms of energy usage then anything else out there as well. So replace that Sun E15K or rack of Athlons and lower your power and cooling bills (which I believe is about 1/4th the cost of most supercomputers over their lifetime).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    5. Re:Pointless in most datacenters by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, the spec sheet indicates that it is 8.9kW per rack (2.2kW for Drive arrays). That is on the high side, but liveable. (6kW is the max for "standard" cooling-- you can accommodate up to 10kW with a high delta-T cooling system. Water cooling comes into play after that.)

      The value of shrinking it down is (as you allude to) not a real-estate issue, but more about the computing efficiencies of a denser package.

      The HP blades (6U) are about 35kW nameplate per rack, with a real load of about 10-11kW. The energy savings of SGI might actually give it some value in comparison!

    6. Re:Pointless in most datacenters by jonbrewer · · Score: 2

      In order to fill one rack with this much horsepower, you would need at least two empty racks next to it to compensate for the power draw and (much) increased cooling needs.

      Consider some facts:

      1. the MIPS chips consume only 17 watts
      2. sane datacenter engineers put their air handling gear on the roof.

      If a 4U 16-processor SGI could outrun our full-sized Origin 2400 for $300,000, I could see buying one.

  18. Favorite Quote by ProtoStar · · Score: 5, Funny
    From the ZD link:

    Procter & Gamble, for example, uses an SGI system to study the aerodynamics of Pringle's potato chips

    1. Re:Favorite Quote by ProtoStar · · Score: 2, Funny

      How long until they use a sgi system to determine the radation pattern of a pringles antenna?

  19. Re:Heating? by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 2

    Wouldnt something that dense have a tendancy to try to burst into flames?

    At 17 W/processor, not really. According to one of the many press releases, this is using a 0.13 micron version of one of their older processors clocked at something like 600 MHz. I'd worry about the bus chipset heating up more than the processors.

    It's interesting to look at the implications of a design like this. Highly parallel systems tend to be communications-limited, and systems that deal with large workloads tend to be memory-bandwidth-limited in general. All of this points to the processor not being the bottleneck. SGI appears to have designed with this in mind, using processors optimized for power instead of performance to improve density.

  20. Re:no different... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, it's not. This is a single-system-image server. The 128-processor rack boots a single kernel. (In fact, you can connect four 128-p racks together to make a 512-p system, and larger systems than that are supported under special contract to SGI. I believe NASA Ames has a 1,024-p.)

    The four-processor, 1-unit server you talked about stops there: at four processors. You can't compare that to a system that scales to be 256 times that size.

    --

    I write in my journal
  21. Inappropriate! by DarkHelmet · · Score: 2, Funny
    With a beowolf cluster of these...

    You'd have a core meltdown that's hotter and does more damage than most nuclear weapons.

    <ducks>

    --
    /^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
  22. I'm not sure... by powerlinekid · · Score: 2

    Today SGI announced the Origin 3900 server, the world's densest computer.
    Not if it does't run a Microsoft server product.
    *ducks*

    --

    can't sleep slashdot will eat me
  23. 17 watts! by simpl3x · · Score: 2, Interesting

    each processor consumes a reasonable amount of elecricity. why have these never been used in anything other than sgi boxen, and cobalt raqs?... neat processors along with arms of course. too bad the world is stuck in the "my processor is faster than thou" mind set. i had thought some years ago that apple would have been well off buying sgi since they have similar markets at the low end of sgi and at the high end of apple.

    1. Re:17 watts! by binaryDigit · · Score: 2

      why have these never been used in anything other than sgi boxen, and cobalt raqs?

      Well Playstations (I & II) use them and they are used in many embedded systems because of the low power/decent performance characteristics. On the desktop, they were in a line of NT based workstations put out by NEC, Sony, as well as MIPS itself.

  24. Density by flops? by LoudMusic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about we calculate density by flops or something else useful. I mean, how difficult would it be to cram a butt load of Pentiums in a rack? Yeah well how much calculation can they do?

    Lets cruise on over to the Top 500 and use their handy dandy html list to view 'most powerful chip'. This unfortunately requires a little calc work because they failed to include this number in their table.

    #1 NEC Earth-Simulator 35,860.00 GFlops using 5,120 Processors -- WOW!

    But that's only 7 GFlops per processor ... that thing is mamoth with 5,120 processors.

    Now lets look at a little different design ...

    #14 Hitachi SR8000-F1/168 1,653.00 GFlops using 168 Processors -- Hot DAMN!!

    This is more like it. They're pulling 9.84 GFlops per processor. With their architecture they could pull off the Earth-Simulator's GFlop rate with 3,645 processors - That's 28% less computer doing the same amount of work. Which means if the Earth-Simulator had been constructed with Hitachi's hardware, they could have been pulling 50,380 GFlops in the same cubic footage.

    Now this is all rambling that assumes that the processors are similar in size. Which probably isn't true. But they are also getting more power out of less hardware, and it is rare that THAT isn't a bonus. ... ramble ramble ...

    --
    No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
    1. Re:Density by flops? by yoink! · · Score: 2

      Again though you're own evalutation falls a little short. You have little information on how much power each processor requires (in either case, NEC and Hitachi) therefore effeciency is only measurable in the context of what effecient means to the one doing the measuring. Perhaps the Hitachi chips require 10 times more power than the NEC chips... I mean hopefuly NEC wouldn't design an environmental analysis machine that is, itself, a drain on energy sources. Well it would be rather funny.

    2. Re:Density by flops? by anzha · · Score: 2

      Note though: the SGI press release states that it only scales to 512 processors. it looks like they are having problems scaling beyond that. It is probably having to do with the interconnect and SSI approaches they are taking (at a guess).

      That means that you will see a peak of around 5 teraflops. The density is impressive for that speed. The peak performance and scalability is not. Speaking from the Supercomputing world that is. It is something to be proud of (for SGI), but if they want to take the SC world by storm they need to scale higher. The high end of machines that will be ordered over the next 5 years are going to be in the 100+ teraflop range for peak performance. (re: Blue Planet)

      While most of the market does not care about the very high end systems - they can't afford them - they ARE excellent PR. Bragging rights can go a long way.

      --
      Do you know why the road less traveled by is littered with the bones of the unwary?
    3. Re:Density by flops? by LoudMusic · · Score: 2

      While most of the market does not care about the very high end systems - they can't afford them - they ARE excellent PR. Bragging rights can go a long way.

      This is so true, and it's really unfortunate. Consumers base too much of their purchases on how impressive something appears, or how they can use it to impress their clients. This is all in light of actual performance of the item in question.

      A good example is LCDs instead of CRTs on the print servers at my office. They're in public areas and they "look cool". Unfortunately, they get about 10 minutes of actual use during the day. What a waste of money.

      --
      No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
    4. Re:Density by flops? by Panaflex · · Score: 2

      PC Load Letter

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
    5. Re:Density by flops? by moosesocks · · Score: 2

      You've also got to remember, the Earth Simulator was COMPLETED in early 2000. This beast was only released today. In addition, a supercomputer requires a good deal of time to design and build.

      Think about it. 60 years ago, we could have built a unit this size with less power than a pocket calculator. Why didn't they use Hitachi's 9.84 GFlop processors....

      Technology advances over time. Today that's more the case than ever (even with the economic slump). Remember Moore's law.

      Of course, they could just buy a HAL9000

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
  25. Re:Z.... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Obviously, that should be 64 gigabytes of RAM, not 64 megs.

    Interesting thing about this system will be, rather than the maximum RAM capacity, the minimum RAM required. The original Origin 3000 required some minimal amount of RAM-- 256 or 512 MB or something-- for every four processors. I'm not sure if this new model has the same requirement, but I'd imagine that it does. (It's an architectural thing. Every node board has to have some RAM on it, because that node board may be nominated at boot time to act as the boot master, among other reasons.)

    If that's true, then a 128-processor system would require a minimum of either 32 or 64 GB of RAM, depending on whether you can put 256 MB on a node board.

    --

    I write in my journal
  26. No by Vaulter · · Score: 2


    This is the current generation hardware. Doom II will require _next generation_ hardware.

    --
    I don't have a sig...Do you??
    1. Re:No by EvilBuu · · Score: 2

      Christ, if Doom II will require next gen hardware, then we're pretty much screwed as far as Doom III is concerned.

      --

      Green-voting, republican-registered, socialist-libertarian.
  27. Re:Superbrick's layout? by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Informative

    (I'm answering these questions off-the-cuff, so if I mistype any details, sorry.)

    If you know what a first-generation C-brick looks like, imagine squeezing that board into a one-rack-unit form factor and stacking four of them together.

    Each superbrick includes four boards, spaced one unit apart, with four R14Ks, the Bedrock, and some RAM. The boards are connected with an internal eight-port crossbar router, making the superbrick a self-contained 16-processor unit. Externally, the superbrick connects to the base I/O brick via XIO+; the base I/O brick contains stuff like the system disk and the first 11 PCI-X slots.

    I'm not positive how the superbricks are configured. Theoretically, you can partially populate them in one-node increments (meaning 4 CPUs and some RAM), but SGI may or may not sell them that way for manufacturing and QA reasons.

    I believe the CPUs come with 8 MB of s-cache each.

    The CPU-to-CPU and CPU-to-RAM bandwidths vary depending on the topology you're crossing, but I believe the minimum is 1.6 GB/s unidirectional, or 3.2 GB/s bidirectional. Intra-node bandwidths are somewhat higher, I believe.

    No, the CPUs are regular single-core MIPS R14000As. They're tiny chips that don't consume much power, so you can really squeeze 'em in there.

    Keep an eye on techpubs.sgi.com, because SGI will be releasing the developer and owner docs for the new system there shortly. (By "shortly" I mean as soon as a few hours or as long as a few weeks, depending on when the docs get released.) You'll find all the technical data you want when those docs go up.

    --

    I write in my journal
  28. According to the SGI page by SexyKellyOsbourne · · Score: 2

    The Origin 3900 is cooled with a Bryant Air Conditioning coil and condenser system.

  29. true to SGI style. by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 2

    these things still look cool. I have always liked how SGI boxes look....

    I would love to see an SGI server case designed by HR Geiger.

    1. Re:true to SGI style. by binaryDigit · · Score: 2

      I've seen a couple of old Onyx servers converted into Coke machines.

    2. Re:true to SGI style. by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

      The Silicon Graphics Refrigerator Project (or: How To Turn a $175.000 High-End SGI Challenge DM Server into a Fridge)

      --

      I write in my journal
  30. Amazing.... by leeet · · Score: 2

    It's amazing that a company that is trying to survive can acomplish such an amazing breakthrough. SGI is on the edge, yet it can push their technology far beyond the competition.

    I wonder what SGI could do if it had the same number of employees Sun or IBM has.

    I think that, once again, they prove that they can provide the community with cool and kick ass products.

    Congrats SGI, this is just amazing... Other companies should follow.

    --
    -- Leeeter than leet
    1. Re:Amazing.... by Usquebaugh · · Score: 2

      WTF...

      Let's see who buys this and what is performs like when installed. I like the idea of single image OS.

      I doubt however it's going to make a dent in the Super Computer top 100. It sure as hell ain't going to beat that Japanese monster.

      The Japanese made an order of magnitude increase in processing power and you think this toy from SGI is leading edge? LOL

      SGI is rapidly becoming the transmeta of super computer manafacturers. There product fills a very small niche, yet all the stupid kids like you think they're so neat.

      As an aside the open critical component in a supercomputer is memory, fast memory, whith out that it matters not a jot how quickly your processors work. So what is the memory bandwidth of this baby?

    2. Re:Amazing.... by the+gnat · · Score: 2

      So what is the memory bandwidth of this baby?

      12.8GB/s. What, you couldn't read the fucking product info before posting?

    3. Re:Amazing.... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

      So what is the memory bandwidth of this baby?

      Aggregate, 12.8 GB/s. Actual STREAM TRIAD performance will be considerably higher than that. A 64-processor prototype system using this same architecture and Itanium2 CPUs scored the world record STREAM TRIAD benchmark back in early September. There's little argument that the Origin 3000 architecture is among the fastest architectures in the world.

      --

      I write in my journal
    4. Re:Amazing.... by sql*kitten · · Score: 2

      The Japanese made an order of magnitude increase in processing power and you think this toy from SGI is leading edge? LOL

      SGI will happily sell you a 512-processor machine if you want one. The innovation in the 3900 is compute power/m^3, not raw power. It just so happens that the Origin 3000 has got the raw power too.

      SGI is rapidly becoming the transmeta of super computer manafacturers. There product fills a very small niche, yet all the stupid kids like you think they're so neat.

      Don;t write them off so quickly. There are plenty of things that only an SGI can do. There are circa-1993 Indigo2's still on people's desks (being used for things like Gladiator), because even a 2002 PC can't do some of the things they can do. SGI are a niche vendor, true... but so is Mercedes.

      As an aside the open critical component in a supercomputer is memory, fast memory, whith out that it matters not a jot how quickly your processors work. So what is the memory bandwidth of this baby?

      Put it this way: internal bandwidth in an SGI workstation is 3.2Gb/s. Can your peecee do that?

    5. Re:Amazing.... by valdis · · Score: 2

      "I doubt however it's going to make a dent in the Super Computer top 100"

      Actually, it probably will. Looking at the Top500 before the announcement, SGI already had several boxes in the top 100. The vendors they're looking to displace are, by and large, HP and IBM, which together comprise most of the top 100 (only 36 of the top 100 aren't HP or IBM boxen). NEC only has 7 in the top 100, and 5 of those are the SX series boxes, a different series than the Earth Simulator system, which appears to have been a one-off box (as opposed to the IBM gear, which are all SP boxes, or the HP systems, which are AlphaServers from the Dec/Compaq line).

      "As an aside the open critical component in a supercomputer is memory, fast memory, whith out that it matters not a jot how quickly your processors work. So what is the memory bandwidth of this baby?"

      SGI cites 12.8GB/sec aggregate memory bandwidth. Per CX brick. So the total bandwidth on a 512-CPU system would be some 32 times that (reduced somewhat by the 4x4x32 hypercube interconnect on the Numaflex). SGI claimed 152 GBytes/sec I/O throughput on the older 3800 systems.

      And yes, that's a single-system-image. But you knew that. :)

    6. Re:Amazing.... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

      No, don't bother doing that comparison. The 12.8 GB/s figure is the aggregate memory bandwidth across the system topology. If you want an idea of how that translates into real-world numbers, find an Origin 3900 and run the STREAM TRIAD memory benchmark. I'm making an educated guess here, but I'd expect to see a result around or above the 100 GB/s mark, based on the results that SGI has published from similar systems to this one.

      --

      I write in my journal
    7. Re:Amazing.... by bmajik · · Score: 2

      As an indigo^2 hi-impact owner (r4.4k, unfortuneately)...

      the I^2 is a lame machine unless you've got impact gfx, at which point its gfx subsystem becomes ok. The phobos ethernet cards in these things cripple the poor EISA bus and slam the cpu. Playing midi on the things is choppy..

      in any case, i chose to respond because of the 3.2Gb/s figure. when you say "internal bandwidth", what are you referring to ? The main memory bandwidth on any DDR system is actually about that fast these days. The O2 doesn't have the XIO bus of the octane, and its mostly irrelevant because pc, o2, and Octane all use PCI for the majority of the expansion devices anyhow.

      For a while the memory bandwidth of pC's was a big limiting factor, but its actually gotten pretty good lately, especially compared to the desktop stuff of the traditional big iron players (sgi, sun, rs6k).

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    8. Re:Amazing.... by be-fan · · Score: 2

      Put it this way: internal bandwidth in an SGI workstation is 3.2Gb/s. Can your peecee do that?
      >>>>>>>>>>
      Um, yes?

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
    9. Re:Amazing.... by be-fan · · Score: 2

      That is 3.2GB/s of peak dedicated bandwidth through a point to point high-speed non-blocking crossbar. SGI systems don't use a bus based topology. That means that you can have 3.2GB/s from CPUMEM at the same time you can have 3.2GB/s from I/ODISK at the same time you can have 3.2GB/s from GFXCPU (sustained 2.4GB/s). Each router supports 8 connections at 3.2GB/s (1.6GB/s down 1.6GB/s up). And this is for their workstations, the new Origins bump things up a notch.
      >>>>>>>>
      Most current PCs are also built on a point to point topology. Desktop level chipsets will get you up to 4.2 GB/sec of main memory bandwidth, though the other point to point links aren't as fast. However, Hypertransport is fully capable of scaling to 6.4 GB/sec, and you can already get 3.2 GB/sec (if you need it) for the I/O links from an Intel E7500 chipset.

      When you see that a PC can do X.XGB/s peak that bandwitch is shared by all subsystems attatched to the bus.
      >>>>>>>
      Um, no. The bandwidth measurements are for the PtP link between the CPU and Northbridge (memory controller). For Hypertransport, the bandwidth measurements are for each individual link.

      The main CPU in an desktop SGI system is matched just to fit this architecture. Whilst your AMD system is sitting idle 65% of the time waiting for data to get where it's going and dealing with bus contention issues and a crappy MSFT OS.
      >>>>>>>>>
      Um, my systems don't run Microsoft OSs, and the OS has little to do with the I/O architecture of the machine. And given that an Athlon uses a point to point link between both the GPU and the CPU, bus contention doesn't exist! Who's spouting shit now?

      Besides, all this talk about crossbars and whatnot is stupid.You originally asked if PCs had 3.2 GB/sec of internal bandwidth. They do. I never said a PC's architecture was comparable to an SGI's. My point was that PC architecture is catching up, and is a lot closer than you'd like to believe.

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
  31. not as dense as mine ! by jacquesm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    www.clustercompute.com

    well, on a per mips basis maybe, but then again I could use faster cpu's today.

  32. Re:Don't Imagine a Beowulf Cluster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    It'd make a hell of a wall, though. Build your house out of these and you don't have to worry about the rising costs of heating this winter.

    I'd also like to mention that I enjoy Subway, despite their lack of 'piping hot grits' as a menu item, and give a shout out to the mods, my paint-huffing homeys keeping it real out there in Internet land.

  33. HEAT? by IEforLinux · · Score: 2, Funny

    Sounds like this unit also would be the central heating unit for the office complex in which it resides.

  34. Delaying the inevitable? by afidel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is this just delaying the death of SGI or signaling a new focus and niche for the company? I loved the Indy stations back in college and the O2's were amazing in their time, but most of the work those systems could do can now be done on comodity hardware, so SGI had to find a new reason to exist. Whether this system is enough to keep the grim reaper away is left to be seen.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    1. Re:Delaying the inevitable? by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can't believe this got moderated as "insightful." Crap like Indys and O2s is what put SGI in a bad place to begin with. SGI always had fantastic graphics technology and a kick-ass operating system. When they tried to sell low-end workstations-- Indys and O2s running IRIX, and all the stupid stuff with Intel machines running NT and Linux-- their net revenues went into the toilet. SGI's biggest sources of revenue have always been scientific and technical computing customers, the government, and the petrochemical/geological industries. It's when SGI de-focuses to talk about stuff like PCs with fancy cases or video servers or data mining software that they start to lose their way.

      This isn't SGI finding a new reason to exist. This is SGI going back to what has always been one of its best reasons to exist. Over time, SGI's technical lead in graphics has diminished, fueled primarily by (believe it or not) home computer games. But even now, nobody can touch SGI for high-performance scalable servers like the 3900.

      --

      I write in my journal
    2. Re:Delaying the inevitable? by sql*kitten · · Score: 3, Informative

      I can't believe this got moderated as "insightful." Crap like Indys and O2s is what put SGI in a bad place to begin with. SGI always had fantastic graphics technology and a kick-ass operating system. When they tried to sell low-end workstations-- Indys and O2s running IRIX, and all the stupid stuff with Intel machines running NT and Linux-- their net revenues went into the toilet.

      Not quite true. After all, in 1994 an Indy had better price/performance than a comparable Pentium system... and a Pentium couldn't touch a fully loaded Indy. With better marketing, SGI could have dominated the high end 2D and low end 3D space, driving out Apple and Intergraph, and continued to hold high-end 3D. I agree that NT was a colossal mistake for them, and they aren't recovered from that mistake next.

      It's when SGI de-focuses to talk about stuff like PCs with fancy cases or video servers or data mining software that they start to lose their way.

      SGI servers are fantastic for large databases, the features that make them great for rendering and number crunching (high memory bandwidth, very fast disk I/O, single system image) can easily be applied to databases. The Origins should be wiping the floor with Sun's Fire range. It's a marketing failure, not a technology failure.

      This isn't SGI finding a new reason to exist. This is SGI going back to what has always been one of its best reasons to exist. Over time, SGI's technical lead in graphics has diminished, fueled primarily by (believe it or not) home computer games. But even now, nobody can touch SGI for high-performance scalable servers like the 3900.

      It has diminished true, but it still exists. There isn't a PC that can touch the Fuel workstation, for example.

  35. Re:Heating? by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'd worry about the bus chipset heating up more than the processors.

    It does. The Bedrock chip is both considerably larger and considerably hotter than the R14000A is. (Bedrock is the memory controller, node crossbar, and "bus" arbitrator.)

    As to your other comment, SGI got a lot for their money when they bought Cray back in the mid 90's. They took a lot of good Cray technology-- like crossbar-based NUMA system design principles-- and incorporated them into their large server systems. I believe SGI was the first company-- other than Cray itself-- to break the one-hundred CPU barrier on a single system image. (The T3 series was a monster, but I don't recall exactly how many CPUs you could cram into one.)

    I think it was Seymour himself who once said, "A supercomputer is a device for turning compute-bound problems into I/O bound problems."

    --

    I write in my journal
  36. Cooling Fans = Wind Tunnel by Brigadier · · Score: 5, Funny


    Anyone see the large image of this thing. It has like 10 6" Wide cooling fans. Walking by this thing will be like walking by a turbine jet engine. I cant' wait for the readers digest " Sucked in to the Origin 3000 how I survived"

    http://www.sgi.com/cgi-bin/download.cgi?/newsroo m/ press_releases/2002/november/images/origin3900_1_j pg.zip

    1. Re:Cooling Fans = Wind Tunnel by c.emmertfoster · · Score: 2

      Why the hell was that image zipped? These guys can make a supercomputer that's denser than Jesus, and they don't realize that jpegs are already compressed? Makes you wonder about those big-brains at SGI. Wierd.

      --
      We can neither love nor pity nor forgive. If you make a slip in handling us you die!
  37. Re:SGI by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    You got ripped off. I wouldn't take a machine with SI graphics if you paid me $10 to haul it away. Ugh.

    I guess you can still use the Octane as a space-heater, though. That's a plus.

    --

    I write in my journal
  38. Not so hot by leeet · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Having the chance to work with a similar machine, I can tell you that the disk arrays (in general) will generate much more heat that the CPU bricks. The CPU bricks a very well ventilated. Hard disks RAIDS (in general) are not so well ventilated and will generate a lot of heat. Maybe they tolerate higher temperature, I don't know.. But it's good though, it keeps a part of the server room a bit warmer when you get too cold :)

    We also have a Linux rack and this will get pretty hot too. We had to move the Linux rack next to the A/C blower. I can't really say about other vendors but SGI is doing a good job at cooling their stuff.

    --
    -- Leeeter than leet
  39. Re:Is it such a good new? by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Funny

    I remember eading an article on Slashdot some time ago on how processors were becoming so hot that at the current trend, they would be hotter than nuclear reactors by 2025.

    When I got up this morning, it was 59 F outside. Now, just after lunch, it's over 65 F. If this trend continues, it will be hot enough to melt lead outside by next spring!

    Beware statistical projections.

    --

    I write in my journal
  40. Doesn't RLX make something more 'dense' than this? by DanEsparza · · Score: 2, Informative
    Unless I'm smoking crack, RLX actually makes a chassis (with their bladed server) that is more dense than this: http://www.rlx.com/products/products_chassis.php

    From their website: "The RLX System 300ex chassis holds 24 ServerBlades in 3U and supports the new ServerBlade 1200i." -- and it's even based on Linus's Transmeta chipset!

    Not sure how Sun's server can top this... somebody help me out here.

  41. Re:Is it such a good new? by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    That's true-- or at least they did-- but this particular machine is not a cluster. It's a single computer. You can cluster these with your favorite technology, of course, using Myrinet or gigabit Ethernet or what-have-you. ASCI Blue Mountain at Los Alamos National Labs is a cluster of 6,144 Origin 2000-series processors. I guess it'd be the acme of hyperbole to call that system a megacluster, but the name sounds pretty good.

    --

    I write in my journal
  42. Mmmm.. by grub · · Score: 2


    The US list price for a 128-processor supercomputer with 64GB of memory is $2,937,696.

    Will they accept PayPal?

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  43. From the article by greenhide · · Score: 5, Funny

    A beefed-up system with 128 processors and 64MB of memory sells for $2.9 million.

    Imagine how much the version with 128 MB must cost!

    --
    Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
    1. Re:From the article by greenhide · · Score: 2

      By the way, it was the ZDNet article.

      All of the others correctly say 64GB. :-)

      --
      Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
  44. Re:Even more density by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    Doesn't count. It's not a single system image. The Origin 3900 is. But apart from that, that's a lot of processors in a small space.

    --

    I write in my journal
  45. Re:SGI Wishes it has the densest server... by Shinobi · · Score: 2, Informative

    The difference? The SGI is a single system image, i.e one single computer, that can be used as a server. With the RLX solution, you need to configure it as a cluster, with all it's inherent troubles, to be able to do roughly the same thing, and still not have shared memory etc.

  46. Woah by teslatug · · Score: 5, Funny

    Nice Rack!

  47. Flops are not everything by halfelven · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Sure, if you buy a ton of second-hand peecees and glue them together in a Beowulf, you have lots and lots of flops (= CPU power).

    But the flops are not everything. The problem with clusters is the network latency when the nodes talk to each other. That latency is small for your average network application, but immense for a supercomputer trying to make all its CPUs talk together. This is why there are entire classes of problems that cannot be solved properly on clusters (non-parallelizable problems).

    As opposed to that, an SGI supercomputer has the inter-CPU latency orders of magnitude lower. Same GFlops per total (same CPU power), but certain problems are solved orders of magnitude faster.

    That's the power of latency. ;-)

    1. Re:Flops are not everything by LoudMusic · · Score: 2

      No one ever said anything about putting this together as a "network cluster". It's a big ass super computer.

      --
      No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
  48. Re:no different... by Polo · · Score: 2

    Whoops, I breezed over that qualification for densest server.

    I stand corrected.

  49. Dedicated Application Computing by yoink! · · Score: 4, Informative

    Check out Nvidia's data centers. Beware... windows media format warning.

    Notice how many times the word linux is used...

  50. not that impressed... by computer_chacham · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Compare this to the 1U Hammer racks that are coming out http://www.newisys.com/NewisysDataSheet.pdf
    for a 42U rack, you have 84 processors, with each processor being about two and a half times faster, SPECint2000 1202 vs. 483 and SPECfp2000 1170 vs. 495, with the Hammers in 32bit mode. Each 1U Hammer rack can contain up to 16 GB of memory, which gives a total of 672 GB of total RAM, compared to the 256GB of the Origin 3900. I also wouldn't be surprised if a 42U rack of Hammers ended up costing more like $300,000 than $3,000,000

  51. Re:Not only in SGI by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    I have been told-- not officially, but close to it-- that when SGI divested itself of MIPS, it retained all the IP surrounding the R10000 family, which includes the R10000, R12000, R14000, and R14000A, and the rumored R16000, R18000, and R20000 lines. So while MIPS makes more RISC processors than anybody else in the world, only SGI has the rights to develop and produce the really cool ones.

    --

    I write in my journal
  52. Re:no. read the specs by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    Oh, don't exaggerate. It's closer to 7 times lower. Well, maybe 8. ;-)

    --

    I write in my journal
  53. I'll say no by halfelven · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't worry, when the economy is in the shitter, there's always your regular three-letter agency to buy those supercomputers. ;-)

  54. Not the world's densest by Sivar · · Score: 2

    Today SGI announced the Origin 3900 server, the world's densest computer. How dense? How about 16 MIPS R14000A processors and 32 GB of RAM in a 4-rack-unit 'superbrick,'.

    The server may be SGI's densest, but at least as far as processing power, it is not the densest. As a counterexample, the above configuration has four processors per unit. Many vendors sell 1U Athlon servers in which each unit holds two dual Athlon systems (four processors per unit), and I can assure you that an AthlonMP 2200+ is quite a bit faster than a MIPS R14000 @ 600MHz.
    True, those two Athlon systems aren't a single server, but we're talking density here.
    Regardless, SGI does have the Athlon beaten hands down on memory per unit.

    --
    Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
    1. Re:Not the world's densest by Sivar · · Score: 2

      The Athlon system you mention is packing 2 CPUs per 1U of space (half as dense per U)

      From the article I quoted:
      At a depth of only 15", the A120 can be stacked back-to-back so up to 4 processors, with over thirteen Gigaflops (billion instructions per second) of computing power, can fit in a 1U space per server

      Ergo,

      4 processors per U.

      Everyone knows the Athlon is memory starved.
      3.5GB per system should be plenty for most tasks. For those requiring more RAM per CPU or a larger contiguous chunk of RAM, yes, MIPS (and other 64-bit processors) are a better choice. However, I was talking strictly about processing power density, in which the Athlon systems (which fit four processors per rack) wins.
      Regarding real-world tasks, there are bound to be a certain number of tasks that MIPS chips accel in. Just being 64-bit makes them faster at dealing with huge numbers (>~4.3 billion), but I doubt they outperform Athlons on most real-world tasks. Of course, MIPS can run Irix, which is a kick-ass Unix implementation (particularly for video and other streaming media), so they do have the advantage there.

      Anyway, it doesn't compare to what SGI is selling. It does in processing density. I would not claim that a bunch of Athlons is a superior solution for, say, a streaming video server or a render farm. Regarding the render farm, though, it seems many movie companies would disagree, as many SGI render farms are being dumped in favor of Athlon and Xeon clusters. (mostly for price, of course)

      The comparison is like saying a riced-up turbo Honda will beat a Ferrari
      I would say that my comparison was more like saying "given a parking lot of size X, the total horse power of all engines in the parking lot is greater when filled with tightly packed BMW M5's than with a single gigantic diesel engine whose driveshaft is driven by multiple smaller diesel engines, all of which share the same fuel tank."
      Of course, car/computer analogies all suck. :)

      --
      Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
  55. Here's what you're missing by halfelven · · Score: 4, Interesting
    ...the single-system image... is only really advantageous for lazy programmers...

    There are entire classes of problems which cannot be solved fast enough on clusters, but only on single-image systems. Anything that cannot be made into a parallel algorithm falls into that category.

    ...let's say that Mosix and 10Gig ethernet advances to the point...

    With networked clusters you're always going to have latencies, orders of magnitude higher than with single-image supercomputers.
    Sure, perhaps in 10 or 15 years, we're going to have network latencies as small as those of a PCI bus, but i'm not really talking about future that far. Until then, clusters will be slow for certain problems. Deal with it. :-P
    1. Re:Here's what you're missing by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 3, Interesting

      With networked clusters you're always going to have latencies, orders of magnitude higher than with single-image supercomputers.

      While your point abour ethernet latency is valid, you should be aware that, for somewhat more money, you can get 2gb throughput and about 7us latency. More info at myri.com.

      The gap between supercomputer and desktop is getting narrower each year. Eventually you will buy your computer by the pound.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    2. Re:Here's what you're missing by virtual_mps · · Score: 2, Insightful
      There are entire classes of problems which cannot be solved fast enough on clusters, but only on single-image systems. Anything that cannot be made into a parallel algorithm falls into that category.


      Of course, anything that cannot be made into a parallel algorithm isn't going to use more than one processor out of a 512p machine, single system image or not. That's not a target audience for this machine.
    3. Re:Here's what you're missing by bmajik · · Score: 2

      im saying that it is possible to fake single-image in software just the way O3k fakes it in hardware.

      its called "Numa" for a reason - the memory access is non-uniform, and there are perf penalties for thinking that all memory accesses are created equal. If you have an app where the hardware/software implementation of the page migrator is a performance blocker, then you'll need to do some tuning work to bring your app up to speed. And at that ponit, you're smart enough to write an app-specific best-case distributed memory management system (ala a much improved MOSIX, which is why i mentioned it)

      The advantage of the O3k is that to many apps, it looks like a single image machine, and it "is", but it doesn't let you always make the same assumptions as a single image machine.

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    4. Re:Here's what you're missing by halfelven · · Score: 2

      Sorry, my bad.
      Of course non-parallel problems cannot be solved on multi-CPU systems, single-image or not.
      What i wanted to say is, only perfect parallel problems can be solved easily on clusters. If there's any need for a signifficant exchange of information between nodes ("almost-parallel" problems) then clusters are useless, you need a single-image supercomputer.
      Unfortunately, many difficult problems (weather prediction, etc.) are almost parallel, hence the need for powerful single-image supercomputers, like the ones SGI makes.

  56. By the time Office 2005 comes out... by zerofoo · · Score: 2

    You'll be able to buy the Origin machine (or something like it) for $999.99 at walmart.

    -ted

  57. Re:Just changing focus by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    Well, in all fairness, SGI is still selling the hell out of Fuel and Octane2. And, unless they've cancelled their plans in the last few months-- a distinct possibility-- they've got something new and interesting coming down the pipe. Code-named Chimera, it's supposed to apply the same principles of scalability and modularity to a single-user workstation that they applied years ago to servers and supercomputers. So SGI's workstation business isn't dead, per se, they're just scaling it back to where it needs to be. I don't think you'll ever see another SGI PC. Thank heavens.

    --

    I write in my journal
  58. Re:SGI by the+gnat · · Score: 2

    That's not really fair; while these machines may be useless for running most modern 3D apps, they're still bitchin' X terminals. The latest version of Irix will run great on those things, and the OS and GUI are so smooth overall that the reduced horsepower isn't really a bother. They aren't for everyone, but they're wonderful machines for people who care more about stability and polish than speed. (Some say the same about Mac OS X, but I've found it has far more annoying hangups than Irix does.)

  59. Go read the theory, dude by halfelven · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's a cluster, not a single-image supercomputer. Read again the coments to this article on Slashdot, there are many explanations why a cluster, no matter how many CPUs you throw at it, will never be able to solve entire classes of problems fast enough; to do that, you need a single-image computer, like the SGI stuff.

  60. SGI is better focused than they were 5 years ago. by zerofoo · · Score: 2

    Last time I went to a "sales pitch lunch" for SGI stuff in PA a few years ago, I realized I didn't need to buy SGI equipment to do the low-end stuff our company was doing (3d rendering, multimedia....etc). SGI was catering to the low-end and couldn't compete there. Intel and MS were more cost competitive. Needless to say, we bought nothing from them.

    The high-end scientific guys were drooling over the Origin machines....and were willing to fork out for the processing power. This should have been a clue to the SGI product planners. I think they are better reading their markets now and this type of focus may actually save SGI.

    -ted

  61. What about the Connection Machine? by bluethundr · · Score: 2, Interesting


    It seems that massively parallel computing has gone the way of the Dinosaur what with the advent of more powerful CPUs. But I read that Danny Hillis of MIT and Thinking Machines fame had built a supercomputer called the Connection Machine which housed 65,536 procs each of which lived on the same wafer with dynamic ram and were arranged in a 16-dimensional hypercube array. I don't think the old beastie had nearly as much ram as the new SGI (of course, this machine was 80's vintage). But depending on the physical size of the old box, could this have not been the world's densest computer ever?

    --
    Quod scripsi, scripsi.
  62. Grammar by AntiTuX · · Score: 2

    I hate to be a dick, but dense(st/r) isn't a proper word. More Dense, Less Dense, Most Dense.
    It just bothers me when people use poor grammar.

    1. Re:Grammar by Artifex · · Score: 2

      I hate to be a dick, but dense(st/r) isn't a proper word.

      They're not? Who says?

      It just bothers me when people use poor grammar.

      It bothers me when people can't contribute to discussions, except to complain about grammar. How can you even bear to read Slashdot, with all the comments written by people who can barely spell, or by people for whom English is not their primary language?

      --
      Get off my launchpad!
  63. Re:SGI is better focused than they were 5 years ag by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    The change you've noticed is due in no small part to a shake-up at the very highest levels of management. Rick Belluzzo, while he was a decent enough guy personally, really had some screwed-up ideas about what the company ought to be doing. He saw SGI's competitors as being Dell and Compaq and, to a certain extent, Apple. In fact, SGI's competitors were, and are, companies like NEC and, in a way, Cray itself. Rick thought too small, and nearly killed the company in the process.

    --

    I write in my journal
  64. Re:rrrr by maelstrom · · Score: 2

    Well, no. Most FPS wouldn't scale linearly on multi-processor machines anyway (nor do they have support for more than one CPU). IIRC, Quake III supports SMP but only gets about 30% better performance with the second processor enabled.

    --
    The more you know, the less you understand.
  65. Re:Heating? by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    It must take a lot to cool it, which would make it pretty loud.

    Yes, it's pretty loud. It's also six feet tall and bright purple. Wanna talk about what it smells like?

    Some people have an uncanny way of zeroing in on the most irrelevant aspects of things. ;-)

    --

    I write in my journal
  66. it's MIPS, so it's not a problem by e · · Score: 2, Informative

    SGI's MIPS chips are engineered to generate magnitudes less heat than Intel or AMD chips. Itanium cores throw 130W or so, whereas SGI engineers all of its cores to fall between 15 - 20W. And if there's one thing SGI knows, it's how to engineer a case. I have an Origin 200 sitting at home, and that thing has enormous heat sinks on each of the CPUs along with three industrial sized fans pushing air through.

    e;

  67. Changing Components? by Captain+Large+Face · · Score: 2

    I don't know much about hardware, but wouldn't this be a bit of a pain to sort out if one of the components blows?

  68. Have you any direct experience? by halfelven · · Score: 2
    SGI hardware is utter crap when it comes to reliability.

    Just how much experience exactly do you have with SGI hardware?
    I routinely work with tens of SGI machines of many different types, as well as Linux on Intel (Dell hardware), Sun, etc. And if i were to make a relibility comparison, SGI is the most reliable. Far more reliable than the Wintel/Dell crap anyway.
  69. Re:Z.... by RageEX · · Score: 2, Informative

    If that's true, then a 128-processor system would require a minimum of either 32 or 64 GB of RAM, depending on whether you can put 256 MB on a node board.

    You can put up to 32GB on a node board/CX brick, a max of 8 CX bricks per rack makes for 256GB per rack, up to 1TB in a 512cpu system (4 racks). Not sure what the minimum is.

  70. Required reading for NUMA/NUMAflex ... by RageEX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I see lots of errors and misunderstandings here. Apparently people have a hard time understanding tech. that is not in thier PC.

    NUMAflex is the coolest concept in systems architecture today. I'm eager to see some trickle down into lower-end markets.

    Read this before you post:

    John Mashey's excellent NUMAflex paper.

  71. Dense Server? by jhughes · · Score: 2

    I dunno, the waiter at lunch was pretty dense....three times for the order.....

  72. SGI is one step ahead by Cheese+Cracker · · Score: 2

    This is the hardware requirements for the next generation of MS Windows... This info must have leaked to SGI. SGI leads the way!

  73. Just how dense is it? by Admiral+Burrito · · Score: 5, Funny

    Client:
    GET / HTTP/1.1
    Host: densestserver.sgi.com

    Server:
    Um... What's that?

    Client:
    Do you not understand HTTP 1.1?

    Server:
    Of course I do...?

    Client:
    Well then,
    GET / HTTP/1.1
    Host: densestserver.sgi.com

    Server:
    Okay... Would you like that biggie-sized?

    Client:
    wtf?

    Server:
    Oh, you want a web page. Okay, I get it now.

    Client:
    Great. Now send it, please.

    Server:
    Send what?

    Client:
    *sigh* Nevermind.

    User:
    Huh? What does "500 Server Error: Server too dense" mean?

  74. Re:no different... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    I'm not going to get into an argument about processors. Your assertion that the R10000 needs to be retired is unfounded and bogus, and not even worth discussing.

    The much vaunted scalability of these systems is also quite questionable.

    Okay, you're kind of talking out of your ass now. I've personally seen code slam a 768-processor machine. (It was nothing more complex than an image processing demonstration. SGI's ImageVision software library is hand-coded to parallelize across all available processors. Run ImageVision on a machine with 8 processors and you'll see it run on all 8. Run it on a machine with 768 and you'll see it run on all 768. In the demo, the program did a 5x5 convolution on an image of truly gigantic proportions, 100K by 100K pixels, or something.) Companies like SGI build giant-- or what we would consider giant-- computers because people need them.

    MPI (which will run very nicely on a cluster), can get you into the hundreds of CPUs of scalability.

    Maybe. But with a single system image, you can scale to tens of thousands of CPUs using nothing more complex than sprocs or pthreads. And you don't get shot in the butt by inter-node bandwidth or latency shortcomings.

    Just because you can add processors, doesnt mean the system "scales". Scaling is one of those fast and furious marketing terms that has an actual meaning attached to it, but you have to wipe away the marketing fluff to find it.

    I hear what you're saying. You seem to be implying that this system doesn't scale, by your definition. Yet you fail to explain what that definition is, exactly. Indicting the whole concept of single-system scalability isn't going to earn you any points here.

    --

    I write in my journal
  75. Re:no different... by jCaT · · Score: 2

    Yes, NAS at ames should have the 1024p cluster up by now. When I was interning there three years ago (yikes, was it that long??) they had a 512p cluster up, and it was the first of its kind. There was a port of doom that would run on the LCD status panels on the front of it... let me tell you, there's nothing quite like playing doom on a multimillion dollar hunk of iron.

    Ok, so it was damn near impossible.. but amusing nonetheless.

  76. Re:no different... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    Let's be clear. These are not clusters. These are single system images. Clusters are composed of a number of separate computers-- each running its own kernel, with its own address space and its own storage-- that can be used together for certain purposes. The computers you're talking about at NASA are single system images, with one running kernel and one address space. A program running on a 1,024-processor system can use one processor, or some, or all 1,024 at the same time merely by spawning sprocs or pthreads, or by calling library code that spawns sprocs or pthreads.

    The chief advantage to the developer of programming for a single system image rather than a cluster is that one doesn't have to use an abstraction tool like PVM or MPI to parallelize one's code. The other big advantage is that single system images are always faster than clusters of identical capacity and processor count.

    --

    I write in my journal
  77. Technical stuff about the SGI Origin family by halfelven · · Score: 2



    NUMAflex Modular Design Approach

    Quote:
    SGI's "NUMAflex" (TM) modular design approach builds computer families
    with unusual scalability and evolvability characteristics. It partitions
    CPU, I/O, and other functions into small, 19" rackmount computing "bricks",
    then combines them via efficient, high-speed cache-coherent cabled interconnects,
    rather than large backplanes.

  78. Re:Benchmarking the performance by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 2

    It looks like the 3900 is just a repackaging of the 3800, so the benchmarks should be the same.

  79. not quite by halfelven · · Score: 2


    O3K is a single-image system. Go back to reading the theory please, or stop posting nonsense.

    Your intuition is somewhat correct regarding latency penalties for access to "remote" memory versus "local" memory in a NUMA system. However, while a Sun *Fire has a latency penalty of 10:1 for such cases, an SGI O3K has a 1.5:1 "penalty"; hardly a penalty at all. Most people do not bother at all about latency; in those rare cases when people try to optimise for NUMA "remote" memory access, they do that for reasons of bandwidth, not latency (like, backing up 1TB in one hour :-D dumb example, i know, but it's the only real one that comes to mind).
    Please read this article for more info:

    NUMAflex Modular Design Approach

    Also remember that Mosix has latency penalties many orders of magnitude worse than NUMA. Difficult to overcome that.
    Not to mention that many problems are "almost parallel" - that means there's a need for heavy data exchange between nodes all the time (many weather prediction algorithms, etc.); with those, no matter how smart your programmers are, you just can't workaround a bad latency in a typical cheap network cluster (Beowulf, Mosix) - you simply need a true single image NUMA system like an SGI O3K.

  80. I couldn't help myself...karma be damned! by dreamchaser · · Score: 2, Funny

    Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these!

  81. Origin was an SGI product, NOT a Cray product by Performer+Guy · · Score: 2

    Wrong, the CRAY-Link was an SGI invention, the ccNUMA architecture and crossbar based Origin architecture was designed build and ready to ship BEFORE SGI bought CRAY. Buying CRAY was a highly questionable move. The Origin would have killed a lot of CRAY's business and SGI sold their sparc based product design to SUN anyway. SGI ended up with a purchase that would have been their growth opportunity, they could have TAKEN huge parts of CRAY's business instead they bought it and the overheads that went with it. SGI never properly rationalized the businesses and joined the orgamizations after that, and they put a complete ass of a Cray manager in charge of the entire company. SGI beat CRAY into submission and instead of killing them, rescued them and put some of their failed management in charge. Dumb bastards.

    1. Re:Origin was an SGI product, NOT a Cray product by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I was actually corrected on this matter in a private email just a little while ago. The product known to the world as CrayLink originated at SGI, not at Cray at all. My time with SGI started in '96, which was after the acquisition, so I was just repeating what I was told. My bad.

      In light of that revelation, I have to agree. It seems like SGI didn't really get much, if anything, out of the Cray acquisition. Except those cool purple tee shirts that said, "My other computer is a Cray." I've still got mine around here someplace....

      Thanks for correcting me, Angus.

      --

      I write in my journal
  82. Densest server has 336 processors per rack... by raynet · · Score: 3, Interesting

    RLX Technologies has a server based on Transmeta Crusoe chip and it can hold 24 CPUs in 3U space, giving 336 processors per rack (and 336GB of RAM and 27TB of HDD :)

    See promo here..

    --
    - Raynet --> .
  83. Re:Just changing focus by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 2

    You're closer than you might realize, except for the part about the low end. SGI might have plans for a new low-end workstation in that price range, but if they do I'm not aware of it, and I can't say I'd be happy about it if they did.

    But for the new stuff... think about the Origin 300. Just read the tech documents on it, and think about it for a little while.

    --

    I write in my journal
  84. Re:Heating? by Hektor_Troy · · Score: 2

    Hot damn!

    I have to give up my firstborn to pay for heating my appartment, so I don't turn on the heat, and it's a nice and warm 4 C in this room. For you fahrenheit people - your fridge is probably warmer.

    Set me up with some ear muffs, and I'll move into that server room in the morning!

    Hey - if they install water cooling, do you think they'd mind if I hooked it up to a swimming pool or something? It'd be nice with an indoor 35C swimming pool!

    --
    We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.